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我說假設是因為這個你自己操作的失誤那當然就是那至於說比如說權委他要看他的契約上如何約定他自己去做認定我想這要請公司來回答這問題我也跟委員報告過這也是為什麼我們精簡要去深入了解的原因"},{"start":189.279,"end":214.353,"text":"那再來剛剛那個重訓的部分重訓的部分齁 林董事長你們證交所根本回答說不到10%我不是要這一條在哪裡啊您在回答之前我就先講一個光是公開發行公司的取儲啊超過3億啊他就得發布重大訊息啊這一個第一時間點第一次的認賠就4.5億欸第二個時間點是4.9億欸"},{"start":219.937,"end":221.809,"text":"兩個前後都不到十加起來是17%"},{"start":223.649,"end":251.448,"text":"林董事長這需不需要發布重大訊息基本上來講跟委員報告那個當他第二次到4.94億的時候就超過了我們的10%就剛才提到17%所以說事實上我們在上個禮拜五就已經去函給那個國內金控上個禮拜五才去函要求他發布對啊這會不會太遲啊因為這件事情衍生已經超過半年之久而且"},{"start":252.208,"end":266.249,"text":"那個最重要啦那個就說那個董事長我這邊不是在為難你就制度面的部分我們有沒有什麼再精進的空間我就說取一處啊三億就要處理啦對不對那十person的"},{"start":267.287,"end":292.28,"text":"根據在哪裡 我去查過 是資產的10%資產是含負債加權益的部分所以為什麼你們可以單一的認定說這不需要這這麼重大的事件 這也是讓整個國泰有恃無恐的地方啊因為沒有人知道嘛 可以私底下作業嘛可以動員跟政情局很好的讀懂去進行遊說跟關說嘛是不是能夠 可以不用賠嘛"},{"start":293.28,"end":313.144,"text":"郭委員我想跟那個所謂剛剛上次已經說明過了對我知道你有說明過了但是我還是免不了要強調一下嘛同樣一個行為在重大重訓發布程序當中的主委跟那個林董事長第四條當中的第一項第二款當中就寫到說要避免對財務造成重大影響這還沒有造成重大影響嗎"},{"start":317.745,"end":341.739,"text":"我意思是說董事長在這邊 主委在這邊我們有沒有可能透過這件事情把它精進化把它具體化對 謝謝委員的指導那個其實我們任何一件案子既然委員會這麼關心 委員這麼關心我們絕對是會針對每一個個案再重新來審視一下這也是為什麼過去我們的重訓啊項目高達五十幾款的原因因為每一次呢 大家都會對"},{"start":342.679,"end":363.426,"text":"不同的訊息給予不同的定義所以交易所這邊也在與時的俱進跟他的上市櫃公司之間如何做資訊充分的揭露我想這部分我可以答應委員一定會回去再根據這個再來檢討在一個月內給本席一個回覆然後在整個國泰監控底下"},{"start":364.707,"end":383.225,"text":"外面還有在傳言還有在講說是不是還要去查一下國泰金共所屬的子公司 孫公司是不是還有持有私心KY或者呢 郭明健前董事長他雖然辭職了他兼職的獨董還不只這一家"},{"start":387.729,"end":411.219,"text":"這個部分有沒有納入精檢的範圍我想我們精檢人員應該是今天還在啦所以我的意思是說這個他們基於他的專業我在這邊也不方便跟委員說我們的檢察人員會查什麼這也不能在這邊說我只是說該查的我們都會去查對 該查的會查包括本席提的這些也會查那該查的要查連同這兩天報紙出來國泰經控連環報"},{"start":416.321,"end":442.612,"text":"連一個這個置地廣場建物還超高還要打掉四層樓已經投入百億了要不要一起查一查我想這個案子因為涉及到建管的規定我想當事會蓋房子不是隨便能夠蓋我想他應該去跟釐清公司應該要對外釐清說為什麼在取得建造又會違反那個地方政府之間做好的溝通說明要對外說明"},{"start":444.373,"end":464.967,"text":"這從來沒有聽過這種消息啊因為房子不是一家公司隨便要開就能開而且已經投入百億了喔所以這個東西公司應該好好對外說明投入百億了餒然後這裡頭其實本席在討論的一個問題還是在究責啦不要讓他卸責那偏偏的究責的部分我們又設立一個責任地圖"},{"start":466.124,"end":494.333,"text":"那責任地圖啊要他們自我問責啊有如登天之難啊不然的話台中銀行不會說那個銀行局長又叫他兩個月之後再給他修正一次業者會有這種這麼主動的自我救責的能力嗎老實講我是非常的懷疑啦其實委員也會有這個顧慮委員也不用擔心因為我們其實上如果委員說你有仔細研究我們的財閥書的話我們最後都有加上一個請他要救責"},{"start":495.313,"end":521.654,"text":"他如果輕輕放下我們絕對不會就此罷休啦因為問責地圖是針對高階人員的問責制度問責委員會是否啟動有無動靜我想金管會應該第一個時間要有所掌握可是我在上次問的時候就是完全沒有辦法理解所以是不是會變成難以就責形同謝責的方式是不是主委你可以思考一下有一些把它辦法化不是想說用自律就可以期待這個問責制度得以落實啦"},{"start":521.834,"end":539.94,"text":"是委員講的我是同意的因為我們的監理有多層次的監理的方法最強制的法令要求法律要求法令要求法規自律規範還有所謂的指引這些各種層次我們會根據不同的情況來做而不是完全都是採用一個方式因為這個確實是"},{"start":543.046,"end":564.804,"text":"我可以同意委員的意見 任何一件引發市場關注或是導致市場發生負面新聞事件我們都應該好好的利用這個機會好好來檢討所以經檢局的責任就很重要啊他檢查到什麼程度你才能了解問題到什麼程度你才知道要修正到什麼程度 制度要改善到什麼程度嘛這也是為什麼我們檢察局過去一向非常專業檢查 我想這沒有問題"},{"start":565.464,"end":587.773,"text":"我最後一個問題齁還是要跟主委溝通一下這在坊間我從三月提出這個問題之後不斷的被人家詢問啊委員啊 啊是怎樣高點 高點找分開就高點齁 要改一年半這也是我們未來要調整的問題 為什麼啊我真的不曉得怎麼解釋欸後來我跟你們查了一下你們十月底以前要做市場調查要去問相關業者"},{"start":590.976,"end":619.95,"text":"就要花個半年超過的時間啊法規修正又要三個月投資人宣導還要六個月這種還需要什麼投資人宣導嗎要到明年七月才能上路我現在很難解釋啊要用一年半的時間來修正這十分鐘啊我跟委員報告我以前沒接這個工作的時候我常常以為想當然爾的那個事情當我了解以後通常不是這樣我請教育所來做個說明沒有 教育所林董"},{"start":620.67,"end":624.171,"text":"這個其實上次就說明過我只跟委員解釋交易所的制度攸關非常多的投資人各種都有還有參與者"},{"start":645.538,"end":653.405,"text":"如果我們只要漏掉一個環節就會產生很大的問題所以我們會非常謹慎能快我們不會慢謝謝委員好 謝謝主委的答覆謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:20.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:20.890000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請金管會彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:20.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.030000+08:00","text":"請彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.090000+08:00","text":"委員早安。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.230000+08:00","text":"主委好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:21.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:23.511000+08:00","text":"我想今天還是要跟你討論國泰金控相關的問題，這不是在討論個案，因為國泰人壽的保戶有八百多萬，國泰金控的投資人有四十幾萬，所以社會關係、利害關係的涵蓋面非常廣。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:49:23.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:49:59.490000+08:00","text":"我們知道對於這家公司，你們上次定了一個治理失靈，但是我覺得已經不只是治理失靈，它已經到有恃無恐，還可以賴帳卸責。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:50:00.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:50:20.198000+08:00","text":"國泰投信是勞動基金運用局全權委託的投信，結果第一個時間點損失的金額高達4.54億，國泰投信不想賠，我們求證過，它不賠的話，就影響到誰？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:50:20.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:50:22.840000+08:00","text":"影響到廣大勞工的權益，這是第一點。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:50:23.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:50:29.946000+08:00","text":"第二個，你有沒有去了解過，為什麼相差5個月之後，它6月份才進行結算？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:50:30.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:50:44.022000+08:00","text":"我合理的推斷跟懷疑，後面那四億多、4.92億它不想賠，所以有一家公司是這樣，它不只治理失靈而已，連基本的社會責任概念都完全沒有。","quality":0.782},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:50:45.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:03.807000+08:00","text":"所以主委，你應該要強化監理，它這些東西不但違反了金融服務業公平待客原則，還違反金融消費者保護法第七條，甚至違反相關法規規範不得有「未盡善良管理人注意義務」與「不當差別待遇」的行為等等，隨便夯不啷噹講就違反了好幾個法。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:05.568000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:06.829000+08:00","text":"它為什麼可以這樣有恃無恐？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:07.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:17.255000+08:00","text":"主委，因為它認為可以掩蓋事實，沒有發布重大訊息、重訊，它就可以掩蓋事實啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:18.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:30.922000+08:00","text":"所以我就去問了證交所，證交所第一時間跟我們講說，因為這個不到權益的10%，只有4.54億，不用發布重大訊息。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:31.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:32.062000+08:00","text":"主委，有這條規定嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:33.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:39.685000+08:00","text":"我想先依序回答委員的問題，待會，比如這個部分，要請交易所來跟委員說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:40.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:41.666000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們絕對是強化監理。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:42.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:55.870000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到為什麼會不賠這件事情，我上次也在委員會報告過，我們證期局邀請他們的負責人來，多次責成他要負責處理，我想……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:56.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:51:58.311000+08:00","text":"負責處理，就是要賠啊！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:51:58.331000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:00.712000+08:00","text":"對，公平待客也是我們跟他說的。是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:01.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:06.113000+08:00","text":"所以我的意思是，這件事情實際上我們有跟他說，後來我們看到的結果就是這樣。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:06.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:11.235000+08:00","text":"倒是今天這整個過程，我剛才講我們不談個案，我只想說今天是因為……","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:11.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:11.575000+08:00","text":"這不是個案！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:12.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:24.178000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說假設因為自己操作的失誤，那當然就是，至於比如全委，要看他們契約上如何約定，他們自己去做認定，我想這要請公司來回答這些問題。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:24.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:28.599000+08:00","text":"我也跟委員報告過，這也是為什麼我們金檢要去深入了解的原因。對。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:29.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:30.600000+08:00","text":"再來，剛剛提到重訊的部分，我們請……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:31.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:38.104000+08:00","text":"重訊的部分，林董事長，你們證交所跟我回答不到10%，我不曉得這一條在哪裡。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:38.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:52:50.050000+08:00","text":"你在回答之前，我先講一個，光是公開發行公司的取處超過3億，就得發布重大訊息。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:52:52.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:06.771000+08:00","text":"國泰金控第一時間點、第一次的認賠就4.54億，第二個時間點是4.94億，前後兩個都不到10%，加起來是17%，林董事長，這需不需要發布重大訊息？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林董事長修銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:08.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:21.841000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，基本上當它第二次到4.94億的時候，就超過了我們的10%，剛才提到17%，事實上我們在上個禮拜五就已經去函給國泰金控……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:22.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:26.124000+08:00","text":"上個禮拜五才去函，要求它發布？對。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:26.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:27.385000+08:00","text":"這會不會太遲了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:28.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:40.781000+08:00","text":"這件事情發生已經超過半年之久，而且最重要的是，董事長，我不是在為難你，就制度面的部分，有沒有什麼再精進的空間？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:40.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:45.428000+08:00","text":"我就說，取處3億就要處理，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:46.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:48.207000+08:00","text":"這10%的根據在哪裡？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:48.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:57.292000+08:00","text":"我去查過了，是資產的10%，資產是含負債加權益的部分，所以為什麼你們可以單一地認定這不需要？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:58.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:53:59.053000+08:00","text":"這麼重大的事件！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:53:59.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:54:12.260000+08:00","text":"這也是讓整個國泰有恃無恐的地方，因為沒有人知道，就可以私底下作業，可以動員跟證期局很好的獨董去進行遊說跟關說，看看是不是能夠不用賠嘛！","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:54:13.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:54:16.321000+08:00","text":"不過委員，我想上次已經說明過了，沒有所謂的跟我們關係友好的問題。","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:54:16.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:54:33.144000+08:00","text":"對，我知道，你說明過了，但是我還是免不了要強調一下，同樣一個行為，主委跟林董事長，「臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司對有價證券上市公司重大訊息之查證暨公開處理程序」第四條第一項第二款當中，就寫到要避免對財務造成重大影響，這還沒有造成重大影響嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:54:37.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:54:46.170000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，董事長在這邊，主委在這邊，你們有沒有可能透過這件事情把它精進、具體化？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:54:47.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:15.563000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的指導，既然委員會這麼關心、委員這麼關心，我們絕對會針對每一個個案再重新來審視一下，這也是為什麼過去我們的重訊項目高達五十幾款，因為每一次大家都會對不同的訊息給予不同的定義，所以交易所也在與時俱進，跟上市櫃公司之間如何做充分的資訊揭露，我想這部分我可以答應委員……","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:15.563000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:16.563000+08:00","text":"好，麻煩主委跟董事長跟相關的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:15.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:18.564000+08:00","text":"一定會回去根據這個再來檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:18.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:20.025000+08:00","text":"盡可能在一個月內給本席一個回復。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:20.025000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:22.366000+08:00","text":"沒問題。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:22.366000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:24.707000+08:00","text":"林董事長請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:24.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:35.958000+08:00","text":"外面還有傳言在講說是不是要去查一下國泰金控所屬的子公司、孫公司是否還持有世芯-KY？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:37.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:49.870000+08:00","text":"或者郭明鑑前董事長雖然辭職了，他兼職的獨董還不只這一家，這個部分有沒有納入金檢的範圍？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:49.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:04.656000+08:00","text":"我想我們金檢人員應該是今天還在啦，所以我的意思是說，他們基於他們的專業來查，我在這邊也不方便跟委員說我們的檢查人員會查什麼，這也不能在這邊說，我只是說該查的我們都會去查。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:06.097000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:23.924000+08:00","text":"對，該查的會查，包括本席提的這些也會查，連同這兩天報紙報導出來的，國泰金控連環爆，一個置地廣場建物超高，還要打掉4層樓，已經投入百億了，要不要一起查一查？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:26.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:31.127000+08:00","text":"這個案子因為涉及到建管的規定，我想當時蓋房子也不是隨便就能夠蓋……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:31.127000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:32.127000+08:00","text":"不只喔，隨便投資、亂投資。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:31.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:39.751000+08:00","text":"我想公司應該要對外釐清為什麼取得建照又會違反這個……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:39.751000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:40.751000+08:00","text":"對，取得建照……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:39.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:42.592000+08:00","text":"要跟地方政府之間做好的溝通說明，也要對外說明。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:44.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:45.414000+08:00","text":"又違反航高限制的標準，從來沒有聽過這種消息！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:46.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:48.796000+08:00","text":"對，因為房子不是一家公司隨便要蓋就能蓋。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:48.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:49.757000+08:00","text":"而且已經投入百億了，主委。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:50.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:52.779000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分公司應該好好對外說明。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:53.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:54.060000+08:00","text":"投入百億了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:56.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:22.189000+08:00","text":"這裡面其實本席在討論的問題還是在究責，不要讓他卸責，偏偏究責的部分我們又設定一個責任地圖，要他們自我問責，這有如登天之難，不然的話，銀行局長也不會叫臺中商銀兩個月之後再跟他修正一次，業者會主動的自我究責嗎？","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:22.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:23.809000+08:00","text":"老實講，我是非常的懷疑啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:24.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:38.335000+08:00","text":"其實委員會有這個顧慮……委員也不用擔心，因為如果委員有仔細研究我們的裁罰書的話，我們最後都有加上一點，就是請他要究責，他如果輕輕放下，我們絕對不會就此罷休，我想……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:39.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:44.680000+08:00","text":"因為問責地圖是針對高階人員的問責制度，問責委員會是否啟動、有無動靜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:44.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:53.728000+08:00","text":"我想金管會應該在第一時間要有所掌握，可是我在上次問的時候就是完全沒有辦法理解，所以是不是會變成難以究責、形同卸責的結果？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:55.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:01.634000+08:00","text":"主委你可以思考一下，有一些辦法不是說用自律就可以期待這個問責制度得以落實。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:01.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:33.575000+08:00","text":"是，委員講的我是同意的，因為我們的監理有多層次的監理方法，包括最強制的法令要求、法律要求、法規、自律規範，還有所謂的指引等等各種層次，我們會根據不同的情況來做，而不是完全採用一個方式，因為這個確實是……但我同意委員的意見，任何一件引發市場關注或導致市場發生負面新聞的事件，我們都應該好好的利用這個機會來檢討。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:33.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:35.036000+08:00","text":"對，所以金檢局的責任就很重要啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:35.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:41.361000+08:00","text":"他檢查到什麼程度，你才能了解問題到什麼程度，你才知道要修正到什麼程度，什麼制度要改善到什麼程度，對不對？","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:41.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:44.804000+08:00","text":"這也是為什麼我們檢查局過去的檢查一向非常專業，我想這沒有問題。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:45.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:58.789000+08:00","text":"我最後一個問題還是要跟主委溝通一下，我從3月提出這個問題之後就不斷地在坊間被人家詢問說，委員，為什麼從9點10分改到9點要改一年半？","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:59.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:00.690000+08:00","text":"這也是我們未來要調整的重點，待會……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:00.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:01.050000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:01.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:21.381000+08:00","text":"我真的不曉得要怎麼解釋，後來我跟你們查了一下，你們10月底以前要做市場調查，要去問相關業者，就要花超過半年的時間，法規修正又要3個月，投資人宣導還要6個月，這種還需要什麼投資人宣導嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:21.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:29.105000+08:00","text":"要到明年7月才能上路，我現在很難去解釋要用一年半的時間來修正這10分鐘！","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:29.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:38.809000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我以前沒接這個工作的時候，以為想當然耳的事情，當我了解以後，通常不是這樣，我請交易所來做個說明。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:38.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:39.809000+08:00","text":"交易所林董，關於投資人宣傳，這需要宣傳嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:39.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:40.809000+08:00","text":"已經講那麼久了，還需要宣傳嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:40.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:41.809000+08:00","text":"還需要6個月來宣傳？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:41.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:42.809000+08:00","text":"法規修正還需要3個月嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:42.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:43.809000+08:00","text":"市場調查需要那麼久嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林董事長修銘","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:43.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:44.809000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，零股交易9點開盤，我們今年年底就可以實施了。年底？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:44.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:45.809000+08:00","text":"年底前？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:45.809000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:46.809000+08:00","text":"好，有你這句話，我就可以交代了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:40.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:12.224000+08:00","text":"這個其實上次就說明過，我跟委員解釋，交易所的制度攸關非常多的投資人，各種都有，還有參與者，我們只要漏掉一個環節就會產生很大的問題，所以我們會非常謹慎，能快的話我們不會慢，謝謝委員。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:12.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:13.405000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主委的答復，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:13.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:17.333571+08:00","text":"我們結束郭國文委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:17.633571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:20.205000+08:00","text":"接下來請林岱樺委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":382,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時49分）謝謝主席，有請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員早安。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。我想今天還是要跟你討論國泰金控相關的問題，這不是在討論個案，因為國泰人壽的保戶有八百多萬，國泰金控的投資人有四十幾萬，所以社會關係、利害關係的涵蓋面非常廣。我們知道對於這家公司，你們上次定了一個治理失靈，但是我覺得已經不只是治理失靈，它已經到有恃無恐，還可以賴帳卸責。","國泰投信是勞動基金運用局全權委託的投信，結果第一個時間點損失的金額高達4.54億，國泰投信不想賠，我們求證過，它不賠的話，就影響到誰？影響到廣大勞工的權益，這是第一點。第二個，你有沒有去了解過，為什麼相差5個月之後，它6月份才進行結算？我合理的推斷跟懷疑，後面那四億多、4.92億它不想賠，所以有一家公司是這樣，它不只治理失靈而已，連基本的社會責任概念都完全沒有。所以主委，你應該要強化監理，它這些東西不但違反了金融服務業公平待客原則，還違反金融消費者保護法第七條，甚至違反相關法規規範不得有「未盡善良管理人注意義務」與「不當差別待遇」的行為等等，隨便夯不啷噹講就違反了好幾個法。","它為什麼可以這樣有恃無恐？主委，因為它認為可以掩蓋事實，沒有發布重大訊息、重訊，它就可以掩蓋事實啊！所以我就去問了證交所，證交所第一時間跟我們講說，因為這個不到權益的10%，只有4.54億，不用發布重大訊息。主委，有這條規定嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想先依序回答委員的問題，待會，比如這個部分，要請交易所來跟委員說明。","第一個，我們絕對是強化監理。剛剛委員提到為什麼會不賠這件事情，我上次也在委員會報告過，我們證期局邀請他們的負責人來，多次責成他要負責處理，我想……"],["郭委員國文：負責處理，就是要賠啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，公平待客也是我們跟他說的。"],["郭委員國文：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以我的意思是，這件事情實際上我們有跟他說，後來我們看到的結果就是這樣。倒是今天這整個過程，我剛才講我們不談個案，我只想說今天是因為……"],["郭委員國文：這不是個案！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不是，我是說假設因為自己操作的失誤，那當然就是，至於比如全委，要看他們契約上如何約定，他們自己去做認定，我想這要請公司來回答這些問題。我也跟委員報告過，這也是為什麼我們金檢要去深入了解的原因。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：再來，剛剛提到重訊的部分，我們請……"],["郭委員國文：重訊的部分，林董事長，你們證交所跟我回答不到10%，我不曉得這一條在哪裡。你在回答之前，我先講一個，光是公開發行公司的取處超過3億，就得發布重大訊息。國泰金控第一時間點、第一次的認賠就4.54億，第二個時間點是4.94億，前後兩個都不到10%，加起來是17%，林董事長，這需不需要發布重大訊息？"],["林董事長修銘：跟委員報告，基本上當它第二次到4.94億的時候，就超過了我們的10%，剛才提到17%，事實上我們在上個禮拜五就已經去函給國泰金控……"],["郭委員國文：上個禮拜五才去函，要求它發布？"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["郭委員國文：這會不會太遲了？這件事情發生已經超過半年之久，而且最重要的是，董事長，我不是在為難你，就制度面的部分，有沒有什麼再精進的空間？我就說，取處3億就要處理，對不對？這10%的根據在哪裡？我去查過了，是資產的10%，資產是含負債加權益的部分，所以為什麼你們可以單一地認定這不需要？這麼重大的事件！這也是讓整個國泰有恃無恐的地方，因為沒有人知道，就可以私底下作業，可以動員跟證期局很好的獨董去進行遊說跟關說，看看是不是能夠不用賠嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：不過委員，我想上次已經說明過了，沒有所謂的跟我們關係友好的問題。"],["郭委員國文：對，我知道，你說明過了，但是我還是免不了要強調一下，同樣一個行為，主委跟林董事長，「臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司對有價證券上市公司重大訊息之查證暨公開處理程序」第四條第一項第二款當中，就寫到要避免對財務造成重大影響，這還沒有造成重大影響嗎？我的意思是，董事長在這邊，主委在這邊，你們有沒有可能透過這件事情把它精進、具體化？"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝委員的指導，既然委員會這麼關心、委員這麼關心，我們絕對會針對每一個個案再重新來審視一下，這也是為什麼過去我們的重訊項目高達五十幾款，因為每一次大家都會對不同的訊息給予不同的定義，所以交易所也在與時俱進，跟上市櫃公司之間如何做充分的資訊揭露，我想這部分我可以答應委員……"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩主委跟董事長跟相關的……"],["彭主任委員金隆：一定會回去根據這個再來檢討。"],["郭委員國文：盡可能在一個月內給本席一個回復。"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒問題。"],["郭委員國文：林董事長請回座。外面還有傳言在講說是不是要去查一下國泰金控所屬的子公司、孫公司是否還持有世芯-KY？或者郭明鑑前董事長雖然辭職了，他兼職的獨董還不只這一家，這個部分有沒有納入金檢的範圍？"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想我們金檢人員應該是今天還在啦，所以我的意思是說，他們基於他們的專業來查，我在這邊也不方便跟委員說我們的檢查人員會查什麼，這也不能在這邊說，我只是說該查的我們都會去查。"],["郭委員國文：對，該查的會查，包括本席提的這些也會查，連同這兩天報紙報導出來的，國泰金控連環爆，一個置地廣場建物超高，還要打掉4層樓，已經投入百億了，要不要一起查一查？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個案子因為涉及到建管的規定，我想當時蓋房子也不是隨便就能夠蓋……"],["郭委員國文：不只喔，隨便投資、亂投資。"],["彭主任委員金隆：我想公司應該要對外釐清為什麼取得建照又會違反這個……"],["郭委員國文：對，取得建照……"],["彭主任委員金隆：要跟地方政府之間做好的溝通說明，也要對外說明。"],["郭委員國文：又違反航高限制的標準，從來沒有聽過這種消息！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，因為房子不是一家公司隨便要蓋就能蓋。"],["郭委員國文：而且已經投入百億了，主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：所以這個部分公司應該好好對外說明。"],["郭委員國文：投入百億了！這裡面其實本席在討論的問題還是在究責，不要讓他卸責，偏偏究責的部分我們又設定一個責任地圖，要他們自我問責，這有如登天之難，不然的話，銀行局長也不會叫臺中商銀兩個月之後再跟他修正一次，業者會主動的自我究責嗎？老實講，我是非常的懷疑啦！"],["彭主任委員金隆：其實委員會有這個顧慮……委員也不用擔心，因為如果委員有仔細研究我們的裁罰書的話，我們最後都有加上一點，就是請他要究責，他如果輕輕放下，我們絕對不會就此罷休，我想……"],["郭委員國文：因為問責地圖是針對高階人員的問責制度，問責委員會是否啟動、有無動靜？我想金管會應該在第一時間要有所掌握，可是我在上次問的時候就是完全沒有辦法理解，所以是不是會變成難以究責、形同卸責的結果？主委你可以思考一下，有一些辦法不是說用自律就可以期待這個問責制度得以落實。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，委員講的我是同意的，因為我們的監理有多層次的監理方法，包括最強制的法令要求、法律要求、法規、自律規範，還有所謂的指引等等各種層次，我們會根據不同的情況來做，而不是完全採用一個方式，因為這個確實是……但我同意委員的意見，任何一件引發市場關注或導致市場發生負面新聞的事件，我們都應該好好的利用這個機會來檢討。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以金檢局的責任就很重要啊！他檢查到什麼程度，你才能了解問題到什麼程度，你才知道要修正到什麼程度，什麼制度要改善到什麼程度，對不對？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼我們檢查局過去的檢查一向非常專業，我想這沒有問題。"],["郭委員國文：我最後一個問題還是要跟主委溝通一下，我從3月提出這個問題之後就不斷地在坊間被人家詢問說，委員，為什麼從9點10分改到9點要改一年半？"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是我們未來要調整的重點，待會……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼？我真的不曉得要怎麼解釋，後來我跟你們查了一下，你們10月底以前要做市場調查，要去問相關業者，就要花超過半年的時間，法規修正又要3個月，投資人宣導還要6個月，這種還需要什麼投資人宣導嗎？要到明年7月才能上路，我現在很難去解釋要用一年半的時間來修正這10分鐘！"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，我以前沒接這個工作的時候，以為想當然耳的事情，當我了解以後，通常不是這樣，我請交易所來做個說明。"],["郭委員國文：交易所林董，關於投資人宣傳，這需要宣傳嗎？已經講那麼久了，還需要宣傳嗎？還需要6個月來宣傳？法規修正還需要3個月嗎？市場調查需要那麼久嗎？"],["林董事長修銘：跟委員報告，零股交易9點開盤，我們今年年底就可以實施了。"],["郭委員國文：年底？"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["郭委員國文：年底前？"],["林董事長修銘：對。"],["郭委員國文：好，有你這句話，我就可以交代了。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這個其實上次就說明過，我跟委員解釋，交易所的制度攸關非常多的投資人，各種都有，還有參與者，我們只要漏掉一個環節就會產生很大的問題，所以我們會非常謹慎，能快的話我們不會慢，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：好，謝謝主委的答復，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["主席：我們結束郭國文委員的質詢。","接下來請林岱樺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","李坤城","顏寬恒","賴惠員","陳玉珍","王世堅","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":471,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關財政部主管臺灣土地\n銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司（詢答）；二、審查中華民國115年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有\n限公司（詢答）；三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關\n金融監督管理委員會主管：（詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保\n險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1156102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}