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謝謝主席那有請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好部長好喔"},{"start":19.198,"end":35.975,"text":"新青安的上路到現在呢看到的是建屋的成交數增加了但是房價也增加了那財政部呢他原定是說6月底要公布到現在呢已經到7月了還沒有看到實際上的青青安2.0的內容"},{"start":37.396,"end":39.998,"text":"本席這次提出三個促進年輕人居住正義的對策想要來跟您討論首先我們看到公股銀行在這兩年的數據顯示核貸者在年齡50歲以上的超過了6700戶比例達到5.23%"},{"start":54.969,"end":56.87,"text":"年收入超過200萬的人有18000多人比例有14.38%那請問部長50歲叫做年輕人嗎200萬的收入還需要國家補貼利息來幫他成家嗎"},{"start":73.699,"end":80.803,"text":"請問部長跟委員報告在這個我們所謂的新清安執行以來我們對於年齡層有做一個統計40歲以下的貸款戶佔了72.48%50歲以下佔了94.61%我知道了部長我的數據上面就寫了50歲以上的5.23%這部分那我想你知道青年基本法當中的青年定義是多少嗎"},{"start":102.312,"end":125.907,"text":"跟委員報告 那未來我們在清安3.0的時候我們當然也會考慮委員所指教的這一點那對年齡的部分我們會納入考量好 這年齡的部分 再幫我句子加小話還包括是屬於年收入200萬的就是說這邊你們願不願意設定合理的生誕年齡跟收入上限把資源聚焦在真正處於成家階段的年輕人你剛剛是針對年齡已經說了嘛對"},{"start":128.348,"end":132.292,"text":"確實是盧委員所說的我們清安貸款確實是要協助沒有自有房屋的民眾來購物而且要用在所謂的真正需要協助的民眾所以在收入部分我們在清安的3.0裡面也會納入條件"},{"start":146.598,"end":168.491,"text":"好 那大家說這個條件大概是 所以就是會應該會有一個上限的限制是嗎對 就是超過一定的收入的話 並不在這個適用的範圍內這是我們會考慮進去的好 那這部分是不是可以再把一個相關的資料可能在可能就在你們七月底就要公布了嗎我們會在七月底之前就一定會公布 對那到時候我們會有一個詳細的說明跟社會大眾做報告"},{"start":171.573,"end":180.697,"text":"好是希望說也許那個方向這邊如果有報告的話希望是這一個禮拜之內是不是大概初步方向可以提供給我們嗎是謝謝委員這樣的一個指教我想這個都會是納入我們方案的規劃的範圍內的好那我們繼續再往下看齁另外看到一個問題是央行也指出啊新金漢呢讓首購族的總屋價呢上漲了17%齁這代表政府的這個補貼呢全部被房價所所吸收了齁那還包括的是"},{"start":201.386,"end":221.786,"text":"一千萬元的貸款額度啦四十年期還有五年的寬限期這部分等於說是放任的高幹桿去搶 到市場去搶房啦對 房價就越墊越高啦所以本席要問的說願不願意將民眾申請新清安可貸款的金額上限與合理的房價所得比來做掛鉤部長願意嗎"},{"start":224.389,"end":227.414,"text":"像委員您指教的都是我們在這一次的時候提出清安3.0的時候都要納入考量的我們要把資源放在確實需要這個政府協助的一個購買自住房屋的民眾身上"},{"start":239.451,"end":266.54,"text":"對 部長我現在合理要問的說合理的房價比你現在知道嗎台灣現在的合理房價所得比是多少嗎沒有所謂合 現在平均母國的確實是房價所得比是有高的現象比其他國家比起來是有高那因此政府才會以各種方式來協助民眾有關居住的部分包含除了我們新青安之外不管是社會住宅或者住民服貼等等各種方式 部長我請你看看我這邊的表格請你看一下螢幕上面當所出的"},{"start":266.94,"end":269.863,"text":"目前呢在你的資料顯示呢就在我的資料顯示呢在15倍以下的的確有達到73.66那是合理的喔那這個15倍的意思代表說在台北市的話就是大概15多可是其他縣市的話當然就更低了"},{"start":283.338,"end":292.041,"text":"那這邊可是超過15倍以上的所得房價所得比甚至還包括20倍以上的總共加起來是多少?是三成以上欸超過三成以上表示他到時候在五年之後開始還本金的話那就可能到時候怎麼樣?他就是賣掉或者是他就變成法拍了這個有幫到的是他可以合理的去指引他拿到就是變成他自己的房子嗎?這個事實你要看到啊"},{"start":309.721,"end":313.145,"text":"跟委員報告銀行在核貸的時候都會把告訴他說你核貸的金額然後你可以你申請貸款金額跟未來在寬限期你要繳的金額以及未來本息繳款的時候是怎樣的金額都會對這個申請者來做一個詳細的說明"},{"start":329.245,"end":334.049,"text":"那這個貸款戶他也必須要橫著他自己的收入而銀行在貸款的時候也會看他的收入的情形能不能有支應我想這個在銀行貸款的時候都會去做這樣的一個審慎的一個評估這也是我們這一次在提出清安3.0的時候所以 部長 銀行要對民眾確切的說明還是要有個避免到高槓桿的這樣子的情形都要讓民眾自己在財務的評估上都要事先都要做詳細的說明跟評估的"},{"start":356.084,"end":361.167,"text":"太高的這個比例當中的確會形成很大的問題啦這部分是不是可以提供一個比較更具體的方向的一個一個說明給本席啊呃我不知道委員您說的我說的這部分吼這邊我因為你看到了因為這部分要遏制到房價你要遏制到房價尤其是台北市已經這麼高那現在的情況是如果他15倍的他還要百分超過三成的部分是在房間合理的房價儲備你們應該事實上要或是你們是不是上也有研議往這方向去進行"},{"start":386.104,"end":386.164,"text":"美其名"},{"start":402.613,"end":417.32,"text":"這個是一個要幫助成家那可是天天在喊的是少子化是國安危機但是對於單身跟沒有生小孩拿到的國家的補貼呢是完全一樣的是不是應該購物的補貼應該在優先投入到"},{"start":418.32,"end":430.268,"text":"婚育的家庭上面 所以許工部長是不是願意給實施生越多 補越多的這個就是實施生越多補越多的一個動態利率折扣例如說寬限 生一胎的話就給了三年的寬限期第二胎呢 有出現了再給到延長三年來減緩青年家庭在育兒初期的現金流壓力呢"},{"start":440.231,"end":455.54,"text":"委員報告對於人口這個問題其實我們已經提出了這個所謂國家的新戰略政府以多面向的方式來協助婚育家庭的一個經濟上的一個需求那在親安貸款的部分我們也會考慮婚育家庭是不是貸款額度給予不同的一個分別那其實貸款額度高的話方向就是有納入這個部分"},{"start":463.865,"end":472.635,"text":"對 婚姻家庭會有不同的一個額度的不同是好 因為時間包括是 因為七月底馬上就要公佈了嘛那我們當然就希望說繼續的就是在最終下去對 委員的意見我們都會都是在我們參考的範圍內好 那我繼續再看到一個是"},{"start":478.921,"end":493.666,"text":"納稅者的權益保護法實施將近10年但是我們看到的是納保官的設置是很重要的已經出現了但是納保官他現在的制度是設在國稅局或是地方稅捐機關然後人事考積跟升遷都是由稅捐機關來做管理認滿之後他還回到原的稅務機關一產生所謂監督自己人去監督自己人的這樣的疑慮請問的是"},{"start":504.47,"end":522.08,"text":"財政部這一部分是不是我們要看到是不是有這樣的一個懷疑現行制度上面是不是想說現在的納保官到底有多少位他都是專任還是兼任的他設施的地方是還有說他到底有沒有在全國性的這樣子的一個對於制度性的改革有些幫助是不是也提供一些舉重實力出來是我想這個納保官確實是蠻重要的可以讓珍納雙方的爭議可以盡量減少"},{"start":529.324,"end":545.653,"text":"那這個部分我們也持續在精進社會各界的意見我們也討論包含納保官可以納入外界的一個除了稅監機關本身的人之外也可以納入外部的委員這都持續在做那至於詳細的執行請您是不是可以由我們複稅署的署長來做跟您說說明"},{"start":548.192,"end":575.227,"text":"報告委員我們納保跟制度實施到現在已經9年快9年了那其實各地區國稅局跟地方稅基金機關因為他是直接去處理納稅者的案件的所以我們現在納保兩者都是由他們他有沒有在制度性的改革我知道我都可以列出來啦包括房地合稅合一稅就是你們常常講的嘛90萬的這個稅呢變成到8萬了等等嘛這不是常常講的但制度性的改革尤其是我剛剛講的"},{"start":576.508,"end":595.634,"text":"包括的是該給的稅是要法律上的保障它才是真的可是你們用的時候很多的含釋就可以讓他們就是給的給的納稅人這部分的話其實說對於在程序合法性是很大的問題的這部分是不是應該要去好好去思考你們有提到制度性的改革的部分嗎有嗎"},{"start":596.414,"end":611.331,"text":"去年呢 我們納稅者權利保護法有修正喔slash保援提案修正也經過立法院通過有增加外部專家學者那現在各稅捐基金機關都會在我們那個保管裡面會選任一些外部專家學者會增加"},{"start":614.537,"end":632.736,"text":"那請問一下 現在的納保官他本身的考機是由誰在考的?考機是誰在考的?你意思是納保官嗎?對 因為是獨立的外部專家學者就沒有考機的問題了獨立的 獨立的沒有所以他就是專任的獨立人士嗎?是 是 是 外部專家學者我們稱為外部專家學者 對好"},{"start":633.957,"end":649.365,"text":"那其他的部分還包括的是你們知道那個函令這部分的部分在當初的關於說只要有程序上面的話只要是有函令的話甚至基於什麼國家機密的保障啊這個部分就不給了理由可是你要知道"},{"start":650.766,"end":666.823,"text":"作為一個財政部就是所謂的納保官他本身徵稅就是一個非常重要侵犯的財政權他必須要非常足夠的一個理由因此程序正義是非常重要的是不是應該給予這部分剛才在納保法裡面有相關的權益的修訂是不是也應該要考量呢"},{"start":667.964,"end":687.032,"text":"報告委員我們現在所有的行政規則包含解釋令根據稅法的規定根據法律的規定都要進行一定的法律程序不是說隨便我們今天財政部要發就可以發他有一定的法律程序是不是因為其實其實有很多的一個一個意見出來了啦我是不是也請說財政部在大概在"},{"start":688.192,"end":705.55,"text":"七八月我們的會期結束之前給我們一個這個在納保官或是納保法上面修訂的制度上面的一個改革的建議或是一個改革的方向給本市那可以給兩個月時間嗎是不是最後把這個報告沒有那就這樣子那就那就那就三個月之內好不好好謝謝謝謝好謝謝好謝謝謝謝蘇冰"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:41.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:43.732000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:43.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:43.832000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:43.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:43.853000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:45.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:45.154000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:54.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:01.325000+08:00","text":"新青安上路到現在看到建物的成交數增加了，但是房價也提高了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:03.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:10.955000+08:00","text":"財政部原定6月底要公布新青安2.0的內容，現在已經到7月了卻還沒有看到。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:12.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:31.550000+08:00","text":"本席這次提出3個促進年輕人居住正義的對策想跟您討論，首先可以看到公股銀行這兩年的數據顯示，核貸者在年齡50歲以上的超過6,700戶，比例達到5.23%，年收入超過200萬的人有一萬八千多人，比例有14.38%，請問部長50歲叫做年輕人嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:31.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:31.870000+08:00","text":"200萬的收入還需要國家補貼利息幫他成家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:48.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:49.880000+08:00","text":"請問部長……","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:49.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:54.242000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，新青安執行以來，我們對於年齡層有做一個統計，40歲以下的貸款戶占了72.48%，50歲以下的占了94.61%，所以……","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:54.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:55.042000+08:00","text":"我知道，部長，所以我的數據上就寫了50歲以上的有5.23%……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:55.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:56.042000+08:00","text":"所以50歲以上的基本上居於少數。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:55.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:55.803000+08:00","text":"你知道青年基本法對青年的定義是多少歲嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:17.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:25.337000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，未來我們在青安3.0的時候當然也會考慮委員所指教的這一點，對於年齡的部分我們會納入考量。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:25.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.286000+08:00","text":"好，有關年齡的部分要具體去想，還要思考包括年收入200萬的，對此你們願不願意設定合理的申貸年齡跟收入上限，把資源聚焦在真正處於成家階段的年輕人？是的。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.887000+08:00","text":"你剛剛針對年齡的部分已經說了嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:41.887000+08:00","text":"那收入上限呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:47.272000+08:00","text":"對，確實如委員所說的，這個青安貸款確實是要協助沒有自有房屋的民眾購屋，而且要用在真正需要協助的民眾身上，所以在收入的部分，我們在青安3.0中也會納入條件。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:01.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:05.160000+08:00","text":"好，納入條件應該會有一個上限吧？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:06.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:11.764000+08:00","text":"對，就是超過一定收入的話，就不在這個適用的範圍內，這是我們會考慮進去的。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:11.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:19.529000+08:00","text":"好，這部分是不是可以再把相關的資料……你們是7月底就要公布了嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:19.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:23.471000+08:00","text":"我們在7月底之前一定會公布，到時候我們會有一個詳細的說明跟社會大眾報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:26.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:32.656000+08:00","text":"好，在方向上如果有報告的話，是不是能在一個禮拜之內把大概的初步方向提供給我們？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:32.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:33.496000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員的指教，我想這個都會納入我們方案規劃的範圍內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:33.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:33.696000+08:00","text":"好，我們再繼續往下看。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:33.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:16.746000+08:00","text":"我另外看到的問題是，央行也指出新青安讓首購族的總屋價上漲了17%，代表政府的補貼全部被房價所吸收了，還包括了1,000萬元的貸款額度、40年的還款期，還有5年的寬限期，等於是放任了高槓桿到市場去搶房，於是房價就愈墊愈高了，所以本席要問，你們願不願意將民眾申請新青安可貸款的金額上限與合理的房價所得比掛鉤？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:16.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:16.786000+08:00","text":"部長願意嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:19.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:22.393000+08:00","text":"我想委員指教的都是我們在這次提出新青安3.0的時候要納入考量的，我們要把資源放在確實需要政府協助購買自住房屋的民眾身上。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:22.393000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:34.451000+08:00","text":"如果是買高……","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:34.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:38.372000+08:00","text":"對，部長，我現在要問的是，你現在知道合理的房價在哪裡嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:38.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:40.873000+08:00","text":"臺灣現在合理的房價所得比是多少？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:41.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:42.134000+08:00","text":"沒有所謂合理……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:43.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:44.334000+08:00","text":"現在我國平均的……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:45.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:58.079000+08:00","text":"現在的房價所得比與其他國家相比確實是有偏高的現象，因此政府才會在居住的部分以各種方式協助民眾，除了新青安之外，還包含不管是社會住宅，或者租金補貼等等各種方式。","quality":0.662},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:58.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:01.520000+08:00","text":"部長，我請你看看我這邊的表格，請你看一下螢幕上面秀出的。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:03.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:26.781000+08:00","text":"在我的資料顯示，目前15倍以下的的確有達到73.66%，那是合理的，這個15倍的意思代表在臺北市的話，大概十五倍多，在其他縣市的話，當然更低，可是房價所得比超過15倍的，甚至20倍以上的，總共加起來是3成以上，表示3成以上在5年之後開始還本金的時候，房子可能就是賣掉，或者是被法拍，這樣有幫助他買到自己的房子嗎？","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:26.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:27.021000+08:00","text":"這個事實你要看到啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:44.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:05.826000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，銀行在核貸的時候，都會告訴他核貸的金額、申請貸款的金額、未來在寬限期要繳的金額，以及未來本息繳款的金額，都會對申請者做詳細的說明，而貸款戶也必須要衡酌自己的收入，銀行在貸款的時候，也會看他的收入情形能不能夠支應。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:05.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:07.628000+08:00","text":"我想銀行在貸款的時候都會做這樣的審慎評估，我們這一次提出青安3.0的時候，也要求銀行要對民眾確切的說明……","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:07.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.228000+08:00","text":"部長，這裡還是必須要避免有高槓桿這樣的情形……","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.368000+08:00","text":"都要讓民眾自己……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.368000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:09.368000+08:00","text":"不然，變成是炒房啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.948000+08:00","text":"在財務的評估上，事先都要做詳細的說明，以及評估。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:31.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:32.405000+08:00","text":"這個比例太高的確會形成很大的問題，這個部分是不是可以提供一個更具體方向的說明給本席？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:32.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:32.825000+08:00","text":"我不知道委員說的具體方向是……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:33.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:36.147000+08:00","text":"因為這個部分要抑制房價，尤其臺北市的房價已經這麼高，現在的情況是超過15倍的有超過3成，所以合理的房價所得比，你們應該要做，或是你們事實上已經有研議往這個方向去進行？","quality":0.743},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:36.147000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:48.625500+08:00","text":"好的，我們會把相關的資料提供給委員，我們把研析的資料提供給委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:48.625500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:01.104000+08:00","text":"好，合理的房價所得比的確是要做，不然，抑制房價的目的是沒有辦法達到的。是，好。好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:01.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:34.481000+08:00","text":"下面我們再看到的是一個更重要的問題，這個美其名是要幫助成家，可是政府天天在喊少子化是國安危機，對於單身和沒有生小孩的人所給的國家補貼，卻是完全一樣的，購屋補貼是不是應該優先投入到有婚育的家庭上面？","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:34.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:45.248000+08:00","text":"所以請問部長是不是願意實施「生越多、補越多」的動態利率折扣，例如生一胎的話，就給3年寬限期，第二胎出生，再延長3年，來減緩青年家庭在育兒初期的現金流壓力呢？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:55.231000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:06.077000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，對於人口這個問題，我們已經提出所謂的國家新戰略，政府以多面向的方式協助婚育家庭的經濟上需求。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:06.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:10.100000+08:00","text":"在青安貸款的部分，我們也會考慮婚育家庭是不是在貸款額度給予不同的分別，其實貸款額度高的話，利息……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:10.100000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:11.100000+08:00","text":"方向呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:10.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:10.520000+08:00","text":"方向就是有納入這個部分……好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:18.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:21.688000+08:00","text":"對婚育家庭會有額度的不同。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:22.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:26.754000+08:00","text":"好，因為7月底馬上就要公布了，我們希望繼續追蹤下去……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:26.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:27.275000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，委員的意見都是在我們參考的範圍內。好。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:27.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:48.386000+08:00","text":"我們繼續再看到的是納稅者權利保護法實施將近10年，我們看到的是納保官的設置是很重要的，已經有設置了，但是納保官依現行制度是設在國稅局，或是在地方稅捐機關，他們的人事、考績以及升遷都是由稅捐機關來管理，任滿之後，也是回到原稅務機關，易產生所謂自己人監督自己人這樣的疑慮。","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:48.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:06.474000+08:00","text":"對於這一部分，我們看到現行制度上面有這樣的疑慮，請問財政部，現在納保官到底有多少位？","quality":0.553},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:06.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:07.735000+08:00","text":"都是專任，還是兼任的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:07.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:15.959000+08:00","text":"他對於制度性改革有沒有幫助，是不是也提供一些實例出來？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:15.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:40.633000+08:00","text":"是，納保官確實是蠻重要的，可以讓徵納雙方的爭議儘量減少，這個部分我們也持續在精進，社會各界的意見，我們也會討論，包含納保官除了稅捐機關本身的人之外，也可以納入外部委員，這都持續在做，至於詳細的執行情形，是不是可以由賦稅署署長來跟您做說明？好。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:43.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:57.980000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們納保官制度實施到現在已經快9年了，因為直接去處理納稅者案件的是各地方國稅局跟稅捐稽徵機關，所以現在納保案件都是由他們……","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:58.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:59.461000+08:00","text":"對，我現在就是問你，它有沒有在做制度性改革？","quality":0.474},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:59.601000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:07.686000+08:00","text":"你講的我知道，我都可以列出來，包括房地合一稅，就是你們常常講的，90萬的稅變成8萬等等，這不是你們常常講的……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:07.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:08.686000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:08.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:30.614000+08:00","text":"但是所謂制度性改革，尤其是我剛才講的，包括該徵的稅要有法律上的依據，你們才可以徵，可是你們很多時候用的是函釋給納稅人，這個部分在程序合法性是有很大問題的，是不是應該要去好好思考，你們有提到制度性改革的部分嗎？","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:30.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:46.311000+08:00","text":"有，去年納稅者權利保護法有修正，是賴士葆委員提案修正，也經過立法院通過，增加了外部專家學者，現在各稅捐稽徵機關都會在納保官裡面選任一些外部專家學者，會增加。","quality":0.845},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:49.817000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:54.022000+08:00","text":"請問現在納保官本身的考績是誰在管理？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:54.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:55.103000+08:00","text":"您是說納保官嘛！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:56.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:56.004000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:56.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:58.947000+08:00","text":"如果是獨立的外部專家學者，就沒有考績的問題了。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:59.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:00.088000+08:00","text":"獨立的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:00.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:01.189000+08:00","text":"獨立的沒有，如果……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:01.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:04.533000+08:00","text":"所以他是專任的獨立人士嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:04.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:07.496000+08:00","text":"是、是、是，我們稱為外部專家學者。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:07.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:41.803000+08:00","text":"好，其他的部分，還包括函令這個部分，當初程序上面只要有函令的話……甚至基於國家機密的保障，你們就不給理由，可是你要知道，大法官說，徵稅本身就是侵犯財產權，必須要有非常足夠的理由，因此程序正義是非常重要的，這個部分剛好在納保法裡面有相關的權益，修訂是不是也應該考量呢？","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:42.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:54.489000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們現在所有的行政規則，包含解釋令，根據稅法規定、法律規定，都要踐行一定的法律程序，不是今天財政部隨便要發就可以發，它有一定的法律程序。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:55.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:11.421000+08:00","text":"對於這個部分，因為有很多意見出來了，所以我是不是也請財政部在8月會期結束之前給本席關於納保官或是納保法修訂在制度上面的改革建議或是改革方向？","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:12.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:13.843000+08:00","text":"好，可以給我們2個月時間嗎？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席（賴委員惠員代）","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:15.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:17.207000+08:00","text":"署長，事後把這個報告給委員，好不好？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:17.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:19.929000+08:00","text":"那就3個月之內，好嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:19.929000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.929000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.390000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.410000+08:00","text":"謝謝，謝謝書彬。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:23.767143+08:00","text":"接著請李彥秀召委質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":536,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。新青安上路到現在看到建物的成交數增加了，但是房價也提高了。財政部原定6月底要公布新青安2.0的內容，現在已經到7月了卻還沒有看到。本席這次提出3個促進年輕人居住正義的對策想跟您討論，首先可以看到公股銀行這兩年的數據顯示，核貸者在年齡50歲以上的超過6,700戶，比例達到5.23%，年收入超過200萬的人有一萬八千多人，比例有14.38%，請問部長50歲叫做年輕人嗎？200萬的收入還需要國家補貼利息幫他成家嗎？請問部長……"],["莊部長翠雲：我跟委員報告，新青安執行以來，我們對於年齡層有做一個統計，40歲以下的貸款戶占了72.48%，50歲以下的占了94.61%，所以……"],["劉委員書彬：我知道，部長，所以我的數據上就寫了50歲以上的有5.23%……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以50歲以上的基本上居於少數。"],["劉委員書彬：你知道青年基本法對青年的定義是多少歲嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，未來我們在青安3.0的時候當然也會考慮委員所指教的這一點，對於年齡的部分我們會納入考量。"],["劉委員書彬：好，有關年齡的部分要具體去想，還要思考包括年收入200萬的，對此你們願不願意設定合理的申貸年齡跟收入上限，把資源聚焦在真正處於成家階段的年輕人？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["劉委員書彬：你剛剛針對年齡的部分已經說了嘛！那收入上限呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，確實如委員所說的，這個青安貸款確實是要協助沒有自有房屋的民眾購屋，而且要用在真正需要協助的民眾身上，所以在收入的部分，我們在青安3.0中也會納入條件。"],["劉委員書彬：好，納入條件應該會有一個上限吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，就是超過一定收入的話，就不在這個適用的範圍內，這是我們會考慮進去的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這部分是不是可以再把相關的資料……你們是7月底就要公布了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們在7月底之前一定會公布，到時候我們會有一個詳細的說明跟社會大眾報告。"],["劉委員書彬：好，在方向上如果有報告的話，是不是能在一個禮拜之內把大概的初步方向提供給我們？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教，我想這個都會納入我們方案規劃的範圍內。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我們再繼續往下看。我另外看到的問題是，央行也指出新青安讓首購族的總屋價上漲了17%，代表政府的補貼全部被房價所吸收了，還包括了1,000萬元的貸款額度、40年的還款期，還有5年的寬限期，等於是放任了高槓桿到市場去搶房，於是房價就愈墊愈高了，所以本席要問，你們願不願意將民眾申請新青安可貸款的金額上限與合理的房價所得比掛鉤？部長願意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員指教的都是我們在這次提出新青安3.0的時候要納入考量的，我們要把資源放在確實需要政府協助購買自住房屋的民眾身上。如果是買高……"],["劉委員書彬：對，部長，我現在要問的是，你現在知道合理的房價在哪裡嗎？臺灣現在合理的房價所得比是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有所謂合理……"],["劉委員書彬：現在我國平均的……"],["莊部長翠雲：現在的房價所得比與其他國家相比確實是有偏高的現象，因此政府才會在居住的部分以各種方式協助民眾，除了新青安之外，還包含不管是社會住宅，或者租金補貼等等各種方式。"],["劉委員書彬：部長，我請你看看我這邊的表格，請你看一下螢幕上面秀出的。在我的資料顯示，目前15倍以下的的確有達到73.66%，那是合理的，這個15倍的意思代表在臺北市的話，大概十五倍多，在其他縣市的話，當然更低，可是房價所得比超過15倍的，甚至20倍以上的，總共加起來是3成以上，表示3成以上在5年之後開始還本金的時候，房子可能就是賣掉，或者是被法拍，這樣有幫助他買到自己的房子嗎？這個事實你要看到啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，銀行在核貸的時候，都會告訴他核貸的金額、申請貸款的金額、未來在寬限期要繳的金額，以及未來本息繳款的金額，都會對申請者做詳細的說明，而貸款戶也必須要衡酌自己的收入，銀行在貸款的時候，也會看他的收入情形能不能夠支應。我想銀行在貸款的時候都會做這樣的審慎評估，我們這一次提出青安3.0的時候，也要求銀行要對民眾確切的說明……"],["劉委員書彬：部長，這裡還是必須要避免有高槓桿這樣的情形……"],["莊部長翠雲：都要讓民眾自己……"],["劉委員書彬：不然，變成是炒房啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：在財務的評估上，事先都要做詳細的說明，以及評估。"],["劉委員書彬：這個比例太高的確會形成很大的問題，這個部分是不是可以提供一個更具體方向的說明給本席？"],["莊部長翠雲：我不知道委員說的具體方向是……"],["劉委員書彬：因為這個部分要抑制房價，尤其臺北市的房價已經這麼高，現在的情況是超過15倍的有超過3成，所以合理的房價所得比，你們應該要做，或是你們事實上已經有研議往這個方向去進行？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們會把相關的資料提供給委員，我們把研析的資料提供給委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好，合理的房價所得比的確是要做，不然，抑制房價的目的是沒有辦法達到的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好。"],["劉委員書彬：好。下面我們再看到的是一個更重要的問題，這個美其名是要幫助成家，可是政府天天在喊少子化是國安危機，對於單身和沒有生小孩的人所給的國家補貼，卻是完全一樣的，購屋補貼是不是應該優先投入到有婚育的家庭上面？所以請問部長是不是願意實施「生越多、補越多」的動態利率折扣，例如生一胎的話，就給3年寬限期，第二胎出生，再延長3年，來減緩青年家庭在育兒初期的現金流壓力呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於人口這個問題，我們已經提出所謂的國家新戰略，政府以多面向的方式協助婚育家庭的經濟上需求。在青安貸款的部分，我們也會考慮婚育家庭是不是在貸款額度給予不同的分別，其實貸款額度高的話，利息……"],["劉委員書彬：方向呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：方向就是有納入這個部分……"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：對婚育家庭會有額度的不同。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為7月底馬上就要公布了，我們希望繼續追蹤下去……"],["莊部長翠雲：對、對、對，委員的意見都是在我們參考的範圍內。"],["劉委員書彬：好。我們繼續再看到的是納稅者權利保護法實施將近10年，我們看到的是納保官的設置是很重要的，已經有設置了，但是納保官依現行制度是設在國稅局，或是在地方稅捐機關，他們的人事、考績以及升遷都是由稅捐機關來管理，任滿之後，也是回到原稅務機關，易產生所謂自己人監督自己人這樣的疑慮。","對於這一部分，我們看到現行制度上面有這樣的疑慮，請問財政部，現在納保官到底有多少位？都是專任，還是兼任的？他對於制度性改革有沒有幫助，是不是也提供一些實例出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，納保官確實是蠻重要的，可以讓徵納雙方的爭議儘量減少，這個部分我們也持續在精進，社會各界的意見，我們也會討論，包含納保官除了稅捐機關本身的人之外，也可以納入外部委員，這都持續在做，至於詳細的執行情形，是不是可以由賦稅署署長來跟您做說明？"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們納保官制度實施到現在已經快9年了，因為直接去處理納稅者案件的是各地方國稅局跟稅捐稽徵機關，所以現在納保案件都是由他們……"],["劉委員書彬：對，我現在就是問你，它有沒有在做制度性改革？你講的我知道，我都可以列出來，包括房地合一稅，就是你們常常講的，90萬的稅變成8萬等等，這不是你們常常講的……"],["宋署長秀玲：對、對、對。"],["劉委員書彬：但是所謂制度性改革，尤其是我剛才講的，包括該徵的稅要有法律上的依據，你們才可以徵，可是你們很多時候用的是函釋給納稅人，這個部分在程序合法性是有很大問題的，是不是應該要去好好思考，你們有提到制度性改革的部分嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：有，去年納稅者權利保護法有修正，是賴士葆委員提案修正，也經過立法院通過，增加了外部專家學者，現在各稅捐稽徵機關都會在納保官裡面選任一些外部專家學者，會增加。"],["劉委員書彬：請問現在納保官本身的考績是誰在管理？"],["宋署長秀玲：您是說納保官嘛！"],["劉委員書彬：對、對、對。"],["宋署長秀玲：如果是獨立的外部專家學者，就沒有考績的問題了。"],["劉委員書彬：獨立的……"],["宋署長秀玲：獨立的沒有，如果……"],["劉委員書彬：所以他是專任的獨立人士嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：是、是、是，我們稱為外部專家學者。"],["劉委員書彬：好，其他的部分，還包括函令這個部分，當初程序上面只要有函令的話……甚至基於國家機密的保障，你們就不給理由，可是你要知道，大法官說，徵稅本身就是侵犯財產權，必須要有非常足夠的理由，因此程序正義是非常重要的，這個部分剛好在納保法裡面有相關的權益，修訂是不是也應該考量呢？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們現在所有的行政規則，包含解釋令，根據稅法規定、法律規定，都要踐行一定的法律程序，不是今天財政部隨便要發就可以發，它有一定的法律程序。"],["劉委員書彬：對於這個部分，因為有很多意見出來了，所以我是不是也請財政部在8月會期結束之前給本席關於納保官或是納保法修訂在制度上面的改革建議或是改革方向？"],["宋署長秀玲：好，可以給我們2個月時間嗎？"],["主席（賴委員惠員代）：署長，事後把這個報告給委員，好不好？"],["劉委員書彬：那就3個月之內，好嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：好，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝書彬。接著請李彥秀召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","李坤城","顏寬恒","賴惠員","陳玉珍","王世堅","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":471,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關財政部主管臺灣土地\n銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司（詢答）；二、審查中華民國115年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有\n限公司（詢答）；三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關\n金融監督管理委員會主管：（詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保\n險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1156102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}