{"error":false,"id":["170334"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170334,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170334","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T09:55:30+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T10:22:00+08:00","影片長度":"00:26:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210a56a771755aed8918c89d092fec882f4a89c27feb000dbf5f94a74b1c6866ca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:55:30 - 10:22:00","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":4.840343750000001,"end":5.61659375,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":6.40971875,"end":12.974093750000002,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":13.328468750000003,"end":15.589718750000003,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.74096875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.02346875,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.301593750000002,"end":24.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.70221875,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.74846875,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.37659375,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.05971875,"end":33.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.080343750000004,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.27409375,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.56909375,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.94846875,"end":42.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.737218750000004,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.31096875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.44159375,"end":47.314718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.70284375,"end":50.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.17909375,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.63034375,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.75659375,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.14034375000001,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.59159375,"end":58.890968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.39721875,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":62.721593750000004,"end":63.143468750000004,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.87346875,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":65.87721875,"end":66.21471875,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.46784375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.66159375000001,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.73721875000001,"end":72.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":74.95596875000001,"end":75.25971875,"speaker_score":0.856},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.25971875,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.79534375,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.94284375000001,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.05221875000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.42721875000001,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.68846875,"end":87.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.81034375,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.97471875000001,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.81846875000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.84784375000001,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":94.78409375000001,"end":95.54346875,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":95.89784375,"end":99.03659375000001,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":99.25596875000001,"end":100.79159375,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":100.84221875,"end":108.03096875,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":108.26721875000001,"end":112.16534375,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":112.55346875000001,"end":114.71346875,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":115.10159375,"end":126.00284375000001,"speaker_score":0.834},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員菁徽","start":126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江議員這個時間點我看是你該下台的時候了"},{"start":94.841,"end":107.487,"text":"以前民進黨是用這麼高的標準在要求政府的剛剛沒有聽到任何一句道歉你也覺得你沒有做不對的地方在這邊我想問每個人都知道有1300公噸的油大量流入全台灣"},{"start":115.251,"end":136.624,"text":"昨天你的記者會說回收43公噸跟1300公噸來比誰看得下去你講得出來你未來目標想回收幾%嗎你講得出來你現在已經預測幾公噸已經吃到台灣人的肚子裡嗎 請回答"},{"start":137.588,"end":150.746,"text":"跟委員說明這件事情呢那麼因為延遲通報所以造成我們無法及時的介入所以對於這個延遲通報所造成的這麼大的損失我們一定給予重罰"},{"start":151.887,"end":168.618,"text":"聽起來就是你把責任推給延遲通報這個5月13號就已經驗出有問題但是遲至6月30號才通知主管機關所以這個延遲的通報造成我們沒有足夠的時間去回收這些有問題的郵件我們應該要"},{"start":172.041,"end":187.162,"text":"社會衛福部的官員關心全國人民健康的官員你是不是應該告訴我們就你們現在手上掌握的資訊已經幾噸其實追不回來了幾公噸已經吃到大家的肚子裡面了這你總要知道吧因為你有統計啊"},{"start":188.644,"end":204.076,"text":"你要統計啊你要跟大家講啊你跟大家講有幾公噸你覺得回收不回來了所以你的目標是從現在的43公噸收到多少公噸是還沒有被吃進去的這個總是你可以回答的吧"},{"start":205.208,"end":226.989,"text":"只要是還沒有出去的油品都已經暫時停止了這個沒有問題這個3%而已啊沒有做成產品的部分都是3%而已對嗎我剛剛是在強調的就是因為這個延遲通報而造成我們沒有辦法及時去回收你回答不出來你現在回答不出來幾公噸已經吃到人民的肚子裡了"},{"start":228.31,"end":234.914,"text":"賴清德7月6號針對獨游回應說該下架就下架該就責就就責看起來你現在覺得你就責完業者官員都沒有錯這幾個官員都沒有錯這個官員裡面有要去服選的啦有去跟立委審柏洋報告進度的啦不跟國人報告跟立委審柏洋報告進度有夠奇怪的"},{"start":256.545,"end":270.06,"text":"然後賴清德說該究責就究責所以現在是沒有要究責自己的意思啊是不是是不是沒有要究責自己的意思相關的責任在我們所有離清署這個事件之後我們自然也會檢討我告訴你我先唸幾段話給你聽"},{"start":272.823,"end":288.348,"text":"這是一個非常有名的學者他講過的話他說黑心有一連串黑心事件爆發不但使國人對政府食品失去信心也會使我國美食的商域重挫食安事件仍不斷爆發"},{"start":289.448,"end":311.366,"text":"黑心食品未曾減少反而製造加工更趨黑心顯示我國食品安全行政完全失靈傳統法制執行陷入困難講到說核心要透過風險評估的制度有關風險管理著墨不多風險溝通更是付之缺乳"},{"start":312.387,"end":318.97,"text":"食品安全未能有效管制食安事件爆發後更是主管機關手忙腳亂消費者人心惶惶然後呢採取公司協力還有自主規範的手段"},{"start":327.874,"end":328.234,"text":"想要出來嗎"},{"start":358.739,"end":379.874,"text":"這個我不清楚給大家看一下封面這篇2016年江志剛學者江志剛教授寫的我國食品安全管制及法治之研究我們來看一下他這篇是在講什麼他這篇就在講啊"},{"start":381.192,"end":403.485,"text":"食安的風險管理不足2016年就講了風險溝通缺席大家人心惶惶政府手忙腳亂自主規制便卸責業者自主管理略無監督恐成政府推責的藉口我以為啊他穿越了欸我以為他2016年學者穿越來2026年欸現在他在檢討署長江志剛欸"},{"start":411.088,"end":416.013,"text":"這樣子你都覺得你沒有問題你2016你就點出了 每一樣東西你都犯了你覺得咧 還是你要去改你的論文 你的研究這邊要回答嗎 沒錯 所以你們都沒錯你2016年那個時候講政府 講成這樣子啊你這個 你這所有的東西 每一樣都發生啊"},{"start":437.109,"end":447.478,"text":"跟委員說明在2014年的油品事件之後那麼就成立了有一個這個食品風險的執議會"},{"start":450.779,"end":466.572,"text":"通過這個諮議會就訂出了這個風險評估諮議會就訂出了這個食品違規事件的下架的階層處理原則就是把它依照風險分析一共分成十類"},{"start":467.313,"end":472.315,"text":"你10年前檢討政府的東西現在一樣一樣的發生然後你還把責任歸咎給廠商你剛剛的意思就是說他們沒有自主通報你2016年就告訴大家說業者自主通報就會變成政府推責的藉口你現在就是活生生的在呈現你當時論文的樣子我們來看"},{"start":495.243,"end":512.292,"text":"這邊有一個很大的窗口啊從5月13到6月305月13就有人發現油有問題6月30中聯才通報給你們我想知道你有沒有掌握到6月15有這些油品廠商的秘密會議這件事"},{"start":513.112,"end":532.498,"text":"有掌握到嗎這個是事後調查的時候那麼才發現6月30之後就是事件發生就是7月1號我們開始進行相關的調查事件的時候才了解到其實這個內部他們在6月15號就已經知情所以我們才會給予重罰所以他們討論了什麼你要講嗎我們"},{"start":537.99,"end":553.569,"text":"快速的 確確內容我沒有辦法但是我們知道他已經知道在6月10號以及10號由我們南橋跟福壽講他的有有異常的狀況在有應該是有這個內容在裡面 以上"},{"start":555.566,"end":572.185,"text":"所以啦你的論文不就在檢討希望不要發生5月13到6月30一千多噸的油流入市面流到老百姓的肚子裡面你就是在檢討這件事啊結果你自己做不到不是嗎不是嗎"},{"start":575.919,"end":595.848,"text":"我問你5月13根據你們的那個食安法有任何人有任何中央政府地方政府有收到通報嗎因為根據食安法認為有危害健康之魚的時候應該要主動停止製造加工並且通報給主管機關有人通報嗎就是因為沒有通報所以我們才會開罰"},{"start":601.502,"end":610.528,"text":"那我們請2016年的教授來當署長也沒有用啊他2016年就知道這些問題了他現在也做不了什麼嗎 不是嗎看起來不是這樣嗎"},{"start":613.233,"end":638.861,"text":"這個業者不能完全沒有責任啊那你呢 你的責任呢所以我們當時候才會訂出這個三段的民管一個是第一個你一定要有自主的一檢驗啊第二個時候會檢驗第三個是後面檢測你有沒有責任 你有沒有責任我們的責任呢我們等到整個事件那麼調查清楚 處理完畢的時候我們自己就會檢討大概多久"},{"start":642.27,"end":665.561,"text":"我們現在還在進行當中因為從這個4月到6月底那麼我們要他停止製造中間的所有的各批次的樣本我們現在都在送驗所以我們還會繼續的去追蹤這些檢驗的結果跟可能涉及到的我聽懂了你剛剛的意思是說你把事情都做完你才會檢討自己你就會檢討自己"},{"start":667.242,"end":688.027,"text":"我們現在最重要的是趕快把這個事件確認讓國人安心這個是我們現在最重要要做的其他的事情是其次很好啊那我們來看看你怎麼浪費我們國人的時間我看一下你的時間序啊7月3號不公佈名單大家人心惶惶不知道吃到的東西有沒有受害"},{"start":688.868,"end":697.803,"text":"7月4號呢公布但是跟大家說20%以上下架20%以下自主管理自己揭露但是可以用"},{"start":699.014,"end":724.733,"text":"你覺得這個符合人性嗎我不知道你怎麼定出來等一下我們再慢慢講7月4號還好你聽我的勸說你沒有去服選不然呢所有的地方政府第一線機場的人在處理這些油品的時候你還在服選喔7月5號你突然說不下架我也覺得怪怪的這就好笑了7月5號你都覺得怪怪了你7月5號覺得怪怪的不趕快說全面下架"},{"start":725.934,"end":747.148,"text":"拖到7月7號的下午4點昨天下午4點才說全面下架7月6號賴清德生氣了他說該就責就就責雖然你覺得你不用就責剛從頭到尾聽下來你就覺得不用就責還有一點喔從你不公佈名單到你現在決定全面下架"},{"start":748.447,"end":775.18,"text":"居然官員江志剛署長的Priority輕重緩急分不清楚你為什麼要跟沈伯陽開會請問你跟沈伯陽開會報告了什麼他可以他可以禁忌你什麼事情嗎你不是應該要跟全國人民開會嗎一個部長很知道自己的分寸知道自己不要去服選一個署長跟特定的密委開會還做成新聞當宣傳"},{"start":778.41,"end":805.137,"text":"你到底知不知道你現在是要做什麼事才是當務之急啊署長你要回答嗎我們所有的資訊都會在第一時間公開都會向公眾來說明所以在這過去每日的新聞稿之後我們已經連續開了幾天的記者會都是希望讓國人清楚我們目前的處理的進度跟所有我們所掌握的確切的資訊都會讓國人清楚"},{"start":807.37,"end":807.957,"text":"那你跟綠圍報告幹嘛"},{"start":810.919,"end":838.305,"text":"就像委員如果邀請任何我們不會邀請你因為我們知道我們不會邀請你是因為我們知道現在你最應該報告的是全國人民而不會用這個立法委員的時間你要處理的是全國人民的健康跟安全還有你下架的流程政策等等的你們的輕重緩急完全搞不清楚還被人家做成照片來宣傳"},{"start":839.847,"end":863.357,"text":"我想所有的委員都是為民眾來關心所以要求我們說明我們都會說明好那我問你全面下架比較重要還是跟綠委說明比較重要你全面下架的時間還是比綠委說明還後面欸比輔選還後面欸我們所有的進度都不會因此而停頓都不斷的在進行中"},{"start":865.182,"end":885.229,"text":"昨天更誇張2點一下說要罰錢4點全國人都看直播發現說署長根本不知道你會出現在記者會署長嚇一跳看到部長走進來你要解釋一下嗎如果中央政府現在不太同調我看你們內部也不同調"},{"start":886.842,"end":899.129,"text":"如果你要宣布罰錢你就兩個人一起宣布嘛怎麼會有一個記者會署長不知道你會到到了以後嚇一跳站起來趕快讓位子給你還要弄名牌你們到底裡面被布羅斯出了什麼問題我們本來的"},{"start":902.29,"end":919.336,"text":"這個我的行程那個時候是在為我們的護理人員我們有一個頒獎就是為了要這個彰顯這個護理的價值所以昨天的下午我們有一個頒獎典禮所以我在台大國際會議中心在做這個護理人員100的這個表揚"},{"start":921.707,"end":931.881,"text":"但是我覺得這個事情需要跟國人講得更清楚所以我才縮短了跟護理人員的這個那你也可以把江組長拉到兩點一起講啊你也可以把江組長拉到兩點一起講最奇怪的就是你兩點講一次"},{"start":939.571,"end":962.293,"text":"四點還要講一次四點一般基層公務員都要下班了他們前面都在處理你二十趴上二十趴下這兩點是因為我參加那個護理人員的表揚大會記者的堵麥我才先講那但是我當時候也特別提到四點的時候呢會由食藥署的記者會來正式跟大家說明"},{"start":963.618,"end":979.213,"text":"你也可以四點跟署長一起講啊因為我之前本來有那個活動所以我沒有辦法這個記者會後來我覺得這個需要來把它講清楚所以我才會那你去之前也可以讓署長知道署長是看到你才知道沒有沒有我是臨時"},{"start":981.334,"end":1004.888,"text":"這個縮短這個行程那麼趕到這個記者會了所以當然這個署長事前我是跟他講我有活動沒有辦法那個記者會還是按照原本沒有關係你昨天兩點宣布一件事四點宣布一件事你就是在人家公務員下班前累死大家而已再來也會很多人問你你要不要快速的講如果你要再講106年的話我們是就不想再聽了你還是要講106年嗎"},{"start":1009.771,"end":1027.775,"text":"現在有問題的東西放進去放進去做成產品106年的那個是當時候所訂的是根據歷往的這個食安事件訂出了一個下架處理原則所以我們第一刻呢是依照過去所訂下來對外發布的所以"},{"start":1028.235,"end":1044.162,"text":"實要屬依法行政那但是因為這個事件呢是第一次發生有驗出有品的這個本便筆所以呢我們才在7月4號再召開專家會議大家就之前的這個下架原則再進行討論依據這個事件的風險性"},{"start":1048.084,"end":1063.782,"text":"再去討論那個下架原車是不是應該做調整然後才進出這個二十分之五這個很基本的道理一個已經不合格的東西原料只要放到產品裡面比例很少就可以"},{"start":1064.483,"end":1074.945,"text":"人民聽到只有這樣子啊那你訂標準幹嘛 你訂標準幹嘛你乾脆把標準訂得寬寬的後面再跟大家說擠拍一下就可以吃你訂標準幹嘛還有 你在公佈20%上下的時候你也沒有說這是不是一體適用嬰幼兒 孕婦 脆弱族群 老人 長者你要不要現在講 你訂的時候你有討論嗎你有討論這些脆弱族群嗎"},{"start":1093.165,"end":1111.752,"text":"這個定的時候是根據這個案件在那個專家7月4號的專家會議大家一起去討論出來根據科學的證據跟推論所定出來我剛問這麼簡單的問題我說請問你這個標準的時候適用所有的脆弱族群嗎"},{"start":1113.274,"end":1124.239,"text":"我只有講這樣子欸你還在講106年啊不是106我講的是7月4號我沒有適用所有的族群你只要告訴我你那天開會的結論這個20%上下到底有沒有適用嬰幼兒孕婦老人就好了有沒有適用當時候的討論就是這個結論所以適用大家嗎適用全部人嗎全部人包括孕婦"},{"start":1141.826,"end":1143.43,"text":"你講的是106年的還是7月4號的7月4號的就是這個結論"},{"start":1150.055,"end":1179.415,"text":"適用全部人全部人都可以好那我們知道了你就是定一個標準是適用全部人而且大家其實也聽不太下去這個是一個下架的標準啦因為這個案例我們106年有那個原則然後我們發現這個事件之後呢那你只要告訴我萬一未來又發生這樣子的食安逢寶你還會再找這種幾趴的事情定標準叫我們有一些上架有一些下架嗎你會不會"},{"start":1180.115,"end":1192.26,"text":"因為每一類當時候我們訂出的這個一共有十類十類的下架原則是不一樣的所以是根據它是屬於哪一類的所以你的意思是說你以後還會再用這個原則你的意思是說你以後還要再用這個原則"},{"start":1198.363,"end":1213.741,"text":"事後會再做整個全盤性七月四號先針對這個事件這個事件完之後我們會再做全面性的對那個原則性要不要再去做更清楚的沒關係我們看一下你本來要去服選的那個日期啊"},{"start":1214.181,"end":1225.092,"text":"台北市已經宣布一律下架 連醬料都停用台中全部停用大家無所適從 大家不知道怎麼去算你的20%20%以上 20%以下你到7月7號才突然大轉彎地方已經反應給你喔 有困難喔 有困難喔"},{"start":1234.301,"end":1257.811,"text":"中央為什麼經過了這麼多天才跟上你們不承認你從7月4號到7月7號這幾天有錯誤嗎昨天網路上很多人在講喔你們放出來的這個list裡面有超商的飯糰還有超商的很多食品從7月4號到7月7號大家已經吃到肚子裡面了大家已經吃到肚子裡面了"},{"start":1260.616,"end":1279.856,"text":"剛剛提到的那個都是即食品那個都是即食品所以那個都不會流到什麼七月之後還會有都不會啦有冷凍的冷凍的可以放很久有冷凍解凍吃的冷凍微波吃的我們據我們的調查是沒有他沒有這些貨存在那個是即食品"},{"start":1281.038,"end":1303.495,"text":"你們的調查報告我們再跟你要然後我們會有這個品項有這個品項出來之後才有辦法去公布嘛所以你的意思我們是一直努力的在把這個品項那我聽懂啦 衛福部長現在告訴大家7月4號他叫大家20%以上下架到7月7號全面下架沒有害到任何人 都沒有人誤吃你的意思就這樣不是嗎應該是這樣講我們是根據專家的這個"},{"start":1308.518,"end":1321.325,"text":"會議的結論去做出這個建議這個下架的原則的建議但是我們後面呢考慮到在實務執行面上的問題衛生局的反應之後所以我們才在進行"},{"start":1323.033,"end":1328.997,"text":"專家的建議是對的但是我們在食物的執行上我告訴你什麼人吃到了你沒有下架醬料很多地方醬料都沒有下架7月4號到7月7號已經有很多人吃掉醬料做出來的產品了"},{"start":1341.826,"end":1365.357,"text":"你還覺得沒有人受害你還覺得你沒有任何錯誤不是 我跟委員說明就是說7月4號的專家會議討論出來的那個是根據科學證據風險提出的建議那我們按照這樣執行但是後面是因為衛生局在反映它的執行上的難度 複雜性所以我們才在行政上去擴大"},{"start":1366.437,"end":1387.532,"text":"所以你到底要不要承認你的錯誤嘛第一你的錯誤就是讓基層的公寓人員忙翻天一改再改這個第一個錯第二個錯你沒有下架的東西早就已經做成有的時候做醬料做的東西很多吃下去了"},{"start":1389.176,"end":1401.293,"text":"專家會議所提到的這些建議呢又要推給專家聽懂了我們當然是要剛剛推給業主現在推給專家專家的報告等一下給你2016年就是專家寫的報告這個就是最專家的寫的報告啦"},{"start":1407.162,"end":1421.543,"text":"沒關係等一下應該還有很多委員想要問你現在我看網路上很多人想知道全面下架他們要怎麼解套你快速的回答我就好了有的已經用你沒有下架的醬料做的東西要不要下架要怎麼執行"},{"start":1425.17,"end":1444.61,"text":"然後第二個這175項你這7月4號到7月7號本來不用下架現在才下的風險誰負責成本誰負責有一些大賣場他跟我們反映啊7月4號就開始下架20%以上的現在又做第二次累得半死成本誰吸收"},{"start":1446.826,"end":1476.129,"text":"最後民眾根本分不清楚哪一些中標要怎麼退貨有一個阿嬤她說她搞不清楚這個油是不是8月4號做出來不是8月4號不是那個時間點做出來的可是你有沒有去驗這個中聯之前的油有沒有問題她可能買到之前的但是她也蠻擔心的你也沒有出來跟大家講啊你現在簡單的講你要怎麼執行你要怎麼退貨你要怎麼統一查詢平台一次講清楚"},{"start":1477.089,"end":1493.384,"text":"4月8號以前的你有沒有驗第一個從4月到6月底的我們現在正在檢驗因為這個是最有可能那4月以前的勒這個是最有可能還在市面上流通的所以我們這是第一批的查驗至於4月以前的因為他的這個"},{"start":1496.861,"end":1512.94,"text":"這個之前我們就都在查他的檢驗的紀錄所以我們先從4月之後的先清查你查他自己的檢驗紀錄你不是去查他喔不是不是查他的樣本他有樣本我們把樣本抽出來那你4月8號以前的拿了沒4月8號以前樣本拿了沒"},{"start":1516.089,"end":1541.901,"text":"因為他的保存的問題啊所以我們先從因為這一些是還有可能在其他都已經現在這個是還有可能在市面上的要先優先要把現在這個先處理掉那更早以前的有些都已經沒有在市面上了我們先從還可能在市面上的先優先那還可能在市面上的阿公阿嬤關心啊對如果不是4月8號到4月10號他可不可以退貨他心中很擔心可不可以退貨"},{"start":1542.561,"end":1555.202,"text":"當然查到了哪一批有問題所以你的意思是說查到沒問題就叫他繼續用喔查到有問題我們就會宣布宣布之後那一批就是大家就按照這個退貨原則去退"},{"start":1555.663,"end":1580.98,"text":"我希望你的平台可以更公開透明現在你就是叫大家問業者看地方政府的宣布你什麼時候要把它投資我們的資訊有一個端區可以查我知道在會計隊的食藥署的下面超難找的你自己覺得難不難找現在每個人都在關心這件事你把它放在下層又下層我們在首頁在食藥署的首頁食藥署的首頁就可以看得到"},{"start":1582.045,"end":1587.508,"text":"好 這些問題 我再用書面詢問你也希望你盡快回覆我 謝謝好 沒有問題 謝謝好 謝謝陳建輝委員的發言"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:36.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:43.465000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，謝謝全國國人、委員、官員一同關心我們現在食安風暴的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:43.465000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:55:45.285000+08:00","text":"首先，我們先播放一段影片。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:55:45.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:37.414000+08:00","text":"（播放影片）","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:37.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:56:37.694000+08:00","text":"請部長。部長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:56:37.694000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:04.841000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:04.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:35.617000+08:00","text":"以前民進黨是用這麼高的標準在要求政府的，剛剛沒有聽到任何一句道歉，你也覺得你沒有做不對的地方，在這邊我想問，每個人都知道有1,300公噸的油大量流入全臺灣，昨天你的記者會說回收43公噸，43公噸跟1,300公噸來比，誰看得下去？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:36.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:39.499000+08:00","text":"你講得出來未來的目標是想回收多少百分比嗎？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:39.499000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:46.464000+08:00","text":"你講得出來現在已經有幾公噸吃到臺灣人的肚子裡嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:46.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:57:46.604000+08:00","text":"請回答！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:57:47.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:00.746000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這一件事情因為延遲通報，所以造成我們無法即時介入，所以對於這個延遲通報所造成的這麼大的損失，我們一定給予重罰。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:01.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:04.329000+08:00","text":"聽起來就是你把責任推給延遲通報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:04.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:12.134000+08:00","text":"5月13號就已經驗出有問題，但是遲至6月30號才通知主管機關……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:12.134000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:13.134000+08:00","text":"我只問你一個結果！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:12.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:18.078000+08:00","text":"所以這個延遲通報造成我們沒有足夠的時間去回收這些有問題的油品……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:18.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:19.078000+08:00","text":"我現在只問你一個結果！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:19.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:20.078000+08:00","text":"身為衛福部的官員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:18.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:18.598000+08:00","text":"我們應該要嚴正的處理。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:22.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:36+08:00","text":"身為衛福部的官員、關心全國人民健康的官員，你是不是應該告訴我們，就你們現在手上掌握的資訊，已經有幾噸其實追不回來了、幾公噸已經吃到大家的肚子裡面了，這你總要知道吧？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:36.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:37.142000+08:00","text":"因為你有統計啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:38.644000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:39.365000+08:00","text":"你有統計啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:39.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:40.886000+08:00","text":"你要跟大家講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:41.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:54.056000+08:00","text":"你跟大家講有幾公噸你覺得回收不回來了，所以你的目標是從現在的43公噸收到多少公噸，是還沒有被吃進去的，這個總是你可以回答的吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:55.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:59.072000+08:00","text":"只要是還沒有出去的油品，都已經暫時停止了，這個沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:58:59.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:58:59.933000+08:00","text":"這個3%而已啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:00.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:02.235000+08:00","text":"沒有做成產品的部分都是留著……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:02.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:03.256000+08:00","text":"3%而已，對嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:03.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:09.662000+08:00","text":"我剛剛一直在強調的就是，因為延遲通報而造成我們沒有辦法及時回收……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:09.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:12.505000+08:00","text":"算了，你回答不出來……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:12.505000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:13.505000+08:00","text":"這非常地清楚……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:12.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:16.969000+08:00","text":"你現在回答不出來幾公噸已經吃到人民的肚子裡了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:18.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:23.333000+08:00","text":"賴清德7月6日針對毒油回應說該下架就下架、該究責就究責，看起來你現在覺得你究責完業者，官員都沒有錯、這幾個官員都沒有錯，這些官員裡面有要去輔選的、有去跟立委沈伯洋報告進度的啦！","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:23.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:24.894000+08:00","text":"不跟國人報告，跟立委沈伯洋報告進度，有夠奇怪的！","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:46.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:51.451000+08:00","text":"然後賴清德說該究責就究責，所以現在是沒有要究責自己的意思啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:51.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:53.713000+08:00","text":"是不是沒有要究責自己的意思了？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:54.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T09:59:58.799000+08:00","text":"相關的責任在我們所有釐清楚這個事件之後，我們自然也會檢討。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T09:59:59.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:15.927000+08:00","text":"我先唸幾段話給你聽，這是一個非常有名的學者講過的話，他說一連串黑心事件爆發，不但使國人對政府食品失去信心，也會使我國美食的商譽重挫。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:16.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:33.039000+08:00","text":"食安事件仍不斷爆發，黑心食品未曾減少，反而製造、加工更趨黑心，顯示我國食品安全行政完全失靈，傳統法制執行陷入困難。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:33.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:44.648000+08:00","text":"講到核心是要透過風險評估的制度，有關風險管理著墨不多，風險溝通更是付之闕如，食品安全未能有效管制。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:45.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:48.950000+08:00","text":"食安事件爆發後，主管機關更是手忙腳亂，消費者人心惶惶，然後採取公私協力還有自主規範的手段，希望透過業者自主管理、建立通報系統等措施，強化食安管制。","quality":0.576},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:48.950000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:53.412000+08:00","text":"藉由公、私部門合作，提高食安管制之專業與效率，惟我國未能體察民情與企業文化之差異，徒使自主規範成為政府卸責的藉口，有待進一步檢討。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:53.412000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:57.874000+08:00","text":"你猜這是誰寫的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:00:57.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:00:58.234000+08:00","text":"想得出來嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:01:28.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:01:29.259000+08:00","text":"這個我不清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:01:30.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:01:44.110000+08:00","text":"給大家看一下封面，這一篇是2016年姜至剛學者、姜至剛教授寫的「我國食品安全管制及法執行之研究」。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:01:45.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:02.639000+08:00","text":"我們來看一下他這篇是在講什麼，他這篇就在講食安風險管理不足，2016年就講了，風險溝通缺席，大家人心惶惶，政府手忙腳亂；自主規制變卸責？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:02.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:08.182000+08:00","text":"業者自主管理若無監督，恐成政府推責的藉口。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:09.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:11.243000+08:00","text":"我以為他穿越了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:11.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:12.984000+08:00","text":"我以為他2016年以學者穿越來到2026年耶！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:13.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:13.485000+08:00","text":"現在他在檢討署長姜至剛！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:21.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:21.769000+08:00","text":"這樣子你都覺得你沒有問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:21.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.150000+08:00","text":"你2016就點出了，每一樣東西你都犯了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.210000+08:00","text":"你覺得呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.731000+08:00","text":"還是你要去改你的論文、你的研究？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:23.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:24.051000+08:00","text":"這邊要回答嗎？沒錯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:24.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:25.512000+08:00","text":"所以你們都沒錯，你2016年那個時候講政府講成這樣子啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:25.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:02:25.852000+08:00","text":"你這所有的東西每一樣都發生啦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:02:47.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:03:16.572000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，在2014年的油品事件之後，就成立了一個食品風險評估諮議會，透過這個諮議會訂出了食品違規事件下架的階層處理原則，就是把它依照風險分級，一共分成十類，所以才會有我們第一天……","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:03:17.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:03:18.073000+08:00","text":"沒關係，你10年前檢討政府的東西，現在一樣……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:03:18.073000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:03:19.073000+08:00","text":"這個就是在2017年訂出的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:03:18.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:03:22.015000+08:00","text":"現在一樣一樣地發生，然後你還把責任歸咎給廠商，你剛剛的意思就是他們沒有自主通報，你2016年就告訴大家說業者自主通報會變成政府推責的藉口，你現在就是活生生地在呈現當時論文的樣子。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:03:22.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:03:57.489000+08:00","text":"我們來看，這邊有一個很大的窗口，從5月13日到6月30日，5月13日就有人發現油有問題，6月30日中聯才通報給你們。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:03:57.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:04.312000+08:00","text":"我想知道，你有沒有掌握到6月15日這些油品廠商的秘密會議這件事，有掌握到嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:04.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:07.353000+08:00","text":"這個是事後調查的時候才發現的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:07.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:08.074000+08:00","text":"6月30日之後？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:09.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:21.638000+08:00","text":"事件發生，就是7月1日我們開始進行相關的調查事件的時候，才了解到其實內部他們在6月15日就已經知情，所以我們才會給予重罰。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:21.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:22.358000+08:00","text":"他們討論了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:22.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:22.478000+08:00","text":"你要講嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:27.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:28.250000+08:00","text":"快速地。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:29.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:43.549000+08:00","text":"確切的內容我沒有辦法，但是我們知道他已經知道在6月10日以及之後由南僑跟福壽講他的油有異常的狀況，應該是有這個內容在裡面，以上。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:45.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:45.786000+08:00","text":"所以啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:04:46.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:04:59.842000+08:00","text":"你的論文不就在檢討說希望不要發生，5月13日到6月30日一千多噸的油流入市面、流到老百姓的肚子裡面，你就是在檢討這件事啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:00.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:02.005000+08:00","text":"結果你自己做不到，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:02.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:02.185000+08:00","text":"不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:05.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:15.964000+08:00","text":"我問你，5月13日，根據你們的食安法，有任何人，有任何中央政府、地方政府收到通報嗎？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:15.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:24.808000+08:00","text":"因為根據食安法，認為有危害健康之虞時，應該要主動停止製造、加工，並且通報主管機關，有人通報嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:24.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:25.848000+08:00","text":"就是因為沒有通報，所以我們才會開罰。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:31.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:40.107000+08:00","text":"那我們請2016年的教授來當署長也沒有用，他2016年就知道這些問題了，他現在也做不了什麼，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:40.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:40.528000+08:00","text":"看起來不是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:43.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:44.554000+08:00","text":"業者不能完全沒有責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:44.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:45.554000+08:00","text":"所以我們當時……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:45.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:45.714000+08:00","text":"那你呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:46.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:47.254000+08:00","text":"你的責任呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:47.254000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:48.254000+08:00","text":"那你的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:47.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:51.176000+08:00","text":"那時候才會訂出三段的品管，一個是……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:51.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:52.176000+08:00","text":"業者不能沒有責任，這個我懂，那你有沒有責任呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:51.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:55.217000+08:00","text":"第一個，一定要有自主的檢驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:55.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:56.977000+08:00","text":"第二個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:56.977000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:57.977000+08:00","text":"你有沒有責任呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:57.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:05:59.618000+08:00","text":"……檢驗，第三個審查跟後市場監測。","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:59.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:00.618000+08:00","text":"你有沒有責任嘛？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:05:59.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:00.839000+08:00","text":"你有沒有責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:01.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:02.199000+08:00","text":"你有沒有責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:02.199000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:03.199000+08:00","text":"署長有沒有責任？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:02.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:08.681000+08:00","text":"我們的責任，等到整個事件調查清楚、處理完畢的時候，我們自己就會檢討。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:08.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:08.841000+08:00","text":"大概多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:12.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:30.119000+08:00","text":"我們現在還在進行當中，因為從4月到6月底，我們要他停止製造、中間所有各批次的樣本，我們現在都在送驗，所以我們還會繼續追蹤這些檢驗的結果跟可能涉及到的層面。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:30.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:35.541000+08:00","text":"我聽懂了，你剛剛的意思是，你把事情都做完，你才會檢討自己、你就會檢討自己。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:37.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:46.984000+08:00","text":"我們現在最重要的是趕快把這個事件確認，讓國人安心，這個是我們現在最重要所要做的，其他的事情是其次。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:47.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:47.384000+08:00","text":"很好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:47.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:06:58.007000+08:00","text":"那我們來看看你怎麼浪費國人的時間，我看一下你的時間序，7月3日不公布名單，人心惶惶，不知道吃到的東西……有沒有受害？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:06:58.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:11.076000+08:00","text":"7月4日公布，但是跟大家說20%以上下架，20%以下自主管理、自己揭露，但是可以用，你覺得這個符合人性嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:11.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:14.218000+08:00","text":"我不知道你怎麼訂出來的，等一下我們再慢慢講。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:14.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:23.685000+08:00","text":"7月4日，還好你聽我的勸說，你沒有去輔選，不然所有地方政府的第一線稽查人員在處理這些油品的時候，你還在輔選！","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:24.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:29.770000+08:00","text":"7月5日，你突然說不下架，我也覺得怪怪的，這就好笑了！","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:30.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:41.698000+08:00","text":"7月5日你都覺得怪怪的，不趕快說全面下架，拖到7月7日下午4點、昨天下午4點你才說全面下架。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:42.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:47.282000+08:00","text":"7月6日，賴清德生氣了，他說該究責就究責。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:47.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:07:52.485000+08:00","text":"雖然你覺得你不用究責，剛剛從頭到尾聽下來，你就覺得不用究責。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:07:52.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:04.230000+08:00","text":"還有一點，從你不公布名單到你現在決定全面下架，居然官員姜至剛署長的priority、輕重緩急分不清楚！","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:05.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:09.873000+08:00","text":"你為什麼要跟沈伯洋開會、請問你跟沈伯洋開會報告了什麼？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:09.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:12.774000+08:00","text":"他可以精進你的什麼事情嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:12.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:15.996000+08:00","text":"你不是應該要跟全國人民開會嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:15.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:32.451000+08:00","text":"一個部長很知道自己的分寸、知道自己不要去輔選，而一個署長跟特定的立委開會，還做成新聞當宣傳，你到底知不知道你現在要做什麼事才是當務之急啊？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:33.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:34.992000+08:00","text":"署長，你要回答嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:34.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:41.833000+08:00","text":"我們所有的資訊都會在第一時間公開、都會向公眾說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:42.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:55.117000+08:00","text":"所以過去每日的新聞稿之後，我們已經連續開了幾天的記者會，都是希望讓國人清楚我們目前處理的進度，以及所有我們掌握的確切資訊，都會讓國人清楚。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:08:57.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:08:57.937000+08:00","text":"那你跟綠委報告幹嘛？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:00.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:05.820000+08:00","text":"就像委員如果邀請任何……我們得到你辦公室，我們也一定都……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:06.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:16.662000+08:00","text":"我們不會邀請你，是因為我們知道現在你最應該報告的是全國人民，而我們不會用立法委員的時間。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:16.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:28.305000+08:00","text":"你要處理的是全國人民的健康跟安全，還有下架的流程、政策等等，你們完全搞不清楚輕重緩急，還被人家做成照片來宣傳。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:29.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:37.050000+08:00","text":"我想所有的委員都是為民眾來關心，所以要求我們說明，我們都會說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:37.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:42.352000+08:00","text":"好，那我問你全面下架比較重要，還是跟綠委說明比較重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:42.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:46.934000+08:00","text":"你全面下架的時間還是比跟綠委說明還後面！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:47.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:48.515000+08:00","text":"比你輔選還後面！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:48.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:09:53.337000+08:00","text":"我們所有的進度都不會因此而停頓，都不斷的在進行中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:09:55.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:12.168000+08:00","text":"昨天更誇張，2點一下說要罰錢，4點全國人民看直播，發現署長根本不知道你會出現在記者會，署長看到部長走進來嚇一跳，你要解釋一下嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:12.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:15.229000+08:00","text":"如果說中央政府現在不太同調，我看你們內部也不同調！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:15.229000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:16.842000+08:00","text":"因為那個時間……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:16.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:22.885000+08:00","text":"如果你要宣布罰錢，就兩個一起宣布，怎麼會有一個記者會是署長不知道你會到？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:23.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:28.949000+08:00","text":"看你到了以後嚇一跳，趕快站起來讓位子給你，還要弄名牌，你們內部到底出了什麼問題？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:28.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:49.336000+08:00","text":"本來我那個時候的行程是在為護理人員頒獎，就是為了要彰顯護理的價值，昨天下午我們有一個頒獎典禮，所以我在臺大國際會議中心舉行臨床護理價值典範100的表揚。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:51.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:10:59.297000+08:00","text":"但是我覺得這個事情需要跟國人講得更清楚，所以我才縮短了跟護理人員的這個表揚大會，然後我們就提前……","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:10:59.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:00.459000+08:00","text":"你也可以把姜署長拉到2點一起講！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:00.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:01.459000+08:00","text":"我才會提前結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:01.459000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:02.459000+08:00","text":"因為記者會在4點已經結束了。","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:01.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:16.498000+08:00","text":"最奇怪的就是你2點講一次，4點還要講一次，4點一般基層公務員都要下班了，他們前面都在處理你的20%上、20%下，4點宣布竟然變全面下架。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:18.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:32.273000+08:00","text":"2點是因為我參加護理人員的表揚大會，記者堵麥我才先講，但是我當時也特別提到，4點會由食藥署的記者會正式跟大家說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:33.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:35.360000+08:00","text":"你也可以4點跟署長一起講，而且……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:36.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:44.308000+08:00","text":"因為我本來就有那個活動，所以沒有辦法參加這個記者會，後來我覺得需要把它講清楚，我才會……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:44.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:48.172000+08:00","text":"你去之前也可以讓署長知道，署長是看到你才知道。沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:48.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:54.556000+08:00","text":"我是臨時縮短行程，趕到這個記者會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:11:55.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:11:59.859000+08:00","text":"事前我跟署長講，我有活動沒有辦法參加，記者會還是按照原本食藥署的安排進行。","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:00.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:09.925000+08:00","text":"沒有關係，你昨天2點宣布一件事，4點宣布一件事，你就是在公務員下班前累死大家而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:10.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:13.548000+08:00","text":"再來也會有很多人問你，你要不要快速地講？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:13.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:14.888000+08:00","text":"如果你要再講106年，我們就不想再聽了，你還是要講106年嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:19.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:24.037000+08:00","text":"現在有問題的東西放進去做成產品……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:24.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:12:39.276000+08:00","text":"106年是當時根據過往的食安事件，訂出了一個下架處理原則，我們第一時間是依照過去所訂下來的對外發布，所以食藥署是依法行政。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:12:40.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:03.691000+08:00","text":"但這個事件是第一次發生驗出油品有苯駢芘，所以我們才在7月4號再召開專家會議，大家就之前的下架原則再進行討論，依據這個事件的風險性再去討論下架原則是不是應該調整，然後才訂出這個20%……","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:03.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:05.853000+08:00","text":"沒關係！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:05.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:13.762000+08:00","text":"人民沒有辦法理解的是，這個是很基本的道理，一個已經不合格的東西、原料，只要放到產品裡面的比例很少就可以。","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:14.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:17.484000+08:00","text":"人民聽到只有這樣，那你訂標準幹嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:17.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:20.104000+08:00","text":"你乾脆把標準訂得寬寬的，後面再跟大家說幾趴以下就可以吃，你訂標準幹嘛？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:20.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:23.645000+08:00","text":"還有你在公布20%上下的時候，也沒有說這是不是一體適用嬰幼兒、孕婦、脆弱族群、老人、長者，你要不要現在講？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:23.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:24.945000+08:00","text":"你訂的時候，有討論這些脆弱族群嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:43.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:13:54.989000+08:00","text":"這個訂的時候是根據這個案件在7月4號專家會議，大家一起討論出來的，根據科學的證據跟推論所訂出來，提供我們作為處理的原則。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:13:56.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:01.752000+08:00","text":"我問這麼簡單的問題，請問你訂這個標準的時候，適用所有的脆弱族群嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:03.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:06.135000+08:00","text":"我只有講這樣，你還在講106年。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:06.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:07.856000+08:00","text":"不是106年，我講的是7月4號專家會議，大家一起討論。","quality":0.421},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:07.856000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:08.856000+08:00","text":"那麼在106年的時候，它就適用……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:07.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:08.817000+08:00","text":"我問有沒有適用所有的族群？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:08.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:12.038000+08:00","text":"你只要告訴我，那天開會的結論20%上下，到底有沒有適用嬰幼兒、孕婦、老人就好了，有沒有適用？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:12.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:12.699000+08:00","text":"當時討論就是這個結論。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:12.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.359000+08:00","text":"所以適用大家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:14.359000+08:00","text":"就是這個結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.779000+08:00","text":"適用全部的人嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:14.779000+08:00","text":"就是這個結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:13.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:14.239000+08:00","text":"全部的人，包括孕婦？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:31.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:32.768000+08:00","text":"你講的是106年的還是7月4號的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:32.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:33.049000+08:00","text":"7月4號的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:33.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:33.430000+08:00","text":"7月4號就是這個結論。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:40.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:40.535000+08:00","text":"適用全部的人？對。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:41.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:42.137000+08:00","text":"全部的人都可以？對。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:42.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:47.920000+08:00","text":"好，我們知道了，你就是訂一個標準適用全部的人，而且大家其實也聽不太下去。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:48.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:50.982000+08:00","text":"這是一個下架的標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:52.003000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:14:57.627000+08:00","text":"因為這個案例、我們106年有那個原則，然後我們發現這個事件之後重新討論出來的。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:14:58.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:09.295000+08:00","text":"你只要告訴我，萬一未來又發生這樣的食安風暴，你還會再找這種幾趴的事情訂標準，叫我們有一些上架，有一些下架嗎？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:09.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:09.415000+08:00","text":"你會不會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:10.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:19.779000+08:00","text":"因為當時我們訂出一共有10類的下架原則是不一樣的，是根據它屬於哪一類來看，所以……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:19.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:21.480000+08:00","text":"你的意思是，你以後還會再用這個原則？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:21.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:22.480000+08:00","text":"所以每一個都不太一樣……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:21.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:22.260000+08:00","text":"你的意思是，你以後還要再用這個原則？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:28.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:15:39.376000+08:00","text":"不是，我們事後會再做整個全盤性……7月4號先針對這個事件，這個事件完了之後，我們會再全面性對那個原則要不要再去做更清楚的擬定……","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:15:39.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.423000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們看一下你本來要去輔選的日期，臺北市已經宣布一律下架，連醬料都停用，臺中全部停用，大家無所適從，不知道怎麼去算你的20%、20%以上、20%以下，你到7月7號才突然大轉彎，地方已經反映給你，有困難，中央為什麼經過了這麼多天才跟上？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:08.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:13.725000+08:00","text":"你們不承認從7月4號到7月7號這幾天有錯誤嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:13.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:25.430000+08:00","text":"昨天網路上很多人在講，你們放出來的list裡面有超商的飯糰，還有超商的很多食品，從7月4號到7月7號大家已經吃到肚子裡面了，要跟誰究責？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:30.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:38.624000+08:00","text":"剛剛提到的都是即食品，所以都不會留到7月之後還會有，都不會！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:38.624000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:39.624000+08:00","text":"那都是即食品。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:38.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:41.627000+08:00","text":"有冷凍的，冷凍的可以放很久。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:42.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:44.891000+08:00","text":"有冷凍解凍吃的、冷凍微波吃的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:46.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:49.836000+08:00","text":"據我們的調查是沒有，沒有這些貨存在，那個是即食品。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:51.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:51.839000+08:00","text":"我再跟你要你們的調查報告。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:51.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:16:59.865000+08:00","text":"我們有品項出來之後，才有辦法公布，所以我們是一直努力在把品項……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:16:59.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:12.514000+08:00","text":"我聽懂了，衛福部長現在告訴大家，7月4號他叫大家20%以上下架，到7月7號全面下架，沒有害到任何人，都沒有人誤吃，你的意思就是這樣，不是嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:12.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:36.696000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣講，我們是根據專家會議的結論作出這個下架原則的建議，但是我們後面考慮到實務執行面的問題，衛生局反映之後，所以我們才在進行……專家的建議是對的，但是我們在實務的執行上必須去考量，所以才會重新調整。","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:36.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:37.396000+08:00","text":"我告訴你，什麼人吃到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:37.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:38.037000+08:00","text":"你沒有下架醬料，很多地方的醬料都沒有下架。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:38.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:17:55.988000+08:00","text":"7月4號到7月7號已經有很多人吃掉醬料做出來的產品了，你還覺得沒有人受害，你還覺得你沒有任何錯誤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:17:55.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:15.337000+08:00","text":"不是，我跟委員說明，7月4號專家會議討論出來的是根據科學證據、風險提出的建議，我們按照這樣執行，但後面是因為衛生局反映執行上的難度、複雜性，所以我們才在行政上去擴大，專家會議的……","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:16.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:20.220000+08:00","text":"你到底要不要承認你的錯誤？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:20.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:21.220000+08:00","text":"不是，專家會議的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:20.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:26.864000+08:00","text":"第一，你的錯誤就是讓基層公務人員忙翻天，一改再改。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:28.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:28.886000+08:00","text":"這是第一個錯。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:28.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:37.512000+08:00","text":"第二個錯，你沒有下架的東西早就已經做成產品，有的時候做醬料，做的東西很多，吃下去了。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:39.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:41.600000+08:00","text":"專家會議所提到的這些建議……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:41.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:42.922000+08:00","text":"又要推給專家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:43.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:43.963000+08:00","text":"聽懂了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:44.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:45.165000+08:00","text":"我們當然是要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:45.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:51.053000+08:00","text":"剛剛推給業者，現在推給專家，等一下給你專家的報告，這是2016年專家寫的報告，這個就是專家寫的報告。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:51.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:18:57.162000+08:00","text":"所有的政策當然是按照科學證據跟專家意見彙整起來的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:18:57.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:05.414000+08:00","text":"沒關係，等一下應該還有很多委員想要問你，現在我看網路上很多人想知道全面下架，他們要怎麼解套？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:05.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:11.103000+08:00","text":"你快速回答我就好了，有的已經用你沒有下架的醬料做的東西要不要下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:11.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:11.523000+08:00","text":"要怎麼執行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:15.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:23.859000+08:00","text":"第二個，這175項從7月4號到7月7號，本來不用下架，現在才下的，風險誰負責？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:23.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:25.621000+08:00","text":"成本誰負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:25.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:34.590000+08:00","text":"有一些大賣場跟我們反應，7月4號就開始下架20%以上的，現在又做第二次，累得半死，成本誰吸收？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:36.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:40.709000+08:00","text":"最後，民眾根本分不清楚哪一些中標，要怎麼退貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:40.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:19:54.440000+08:00","text":"有一個阿嬤說他搞不清楚這個油是不是4月8號那個時間點做出來的，可是你有沒有去驗中聯之前的油是否有問題？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:19:54.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:03.246000+08:00","text":"他可能買到之前的，但是他也蠻擔心的，你也沒有出來跟大家講啊，你現在簡單的講，你要怎麼執行，你要怎麼退貨？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:03.246000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:04.567000+08:00","text":"你要怎麼統一查詢平台？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:05.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:09.271000+08:00","text":"一次講清楚，4月8號以前的油，你有沒有驗？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:09.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:13.115000+08:00","text":"第一個，從4月到6月底的，我們現在正在檢驗……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳部長菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:14.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:15.197000+08:00","text":"4月以前的呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:16.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:21.422000+08:00","text":"因為這個是最有可能還在市面上流通的，所以這是第一批的查驗。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:21.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:33.329000+08:00","text":"至於4月以前的，因為之前我們就都在查他的檢驗紀錄，所以我們先從4月之後的先清查，因為這個樣本……","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:34.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:35.832000+08:00","text":"你拿他自己的檢驗紀錄？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:35.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:36.773000+08:00","text":"你不是去查他喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:36.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:37.313000+08:00","text":"不是、不是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:37.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:38.313000+08:00","text":"你都已經看到他……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:37.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:41.358000+08:00","text":"查他的樣本，他有樣本，我們把樣本抽出來送驗。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:41.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:42.039000+08:00","text":"那你4月8號以前的拿了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:42.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:20:42.920000+08:00","text":"4月8號以前樣本拿了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:20:46.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:04.017000+08:00","text":"因為他的保存問題，所以我們先從……因為這一些是還有可能在……其他都已經……現在這個是還有可能在市面上的要優先，要把現在這個先處理掉，更早以前的有些都已經沒有在市面上了，我們先從還可能在市面上的優先清查……","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:04.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:10.200000+08:00","text":"還可能在市面上的，阿公阿嬤關心啦，如果不是4月8號到4月10號，他可不可以退貨？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:10.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:11.901000+08:00","text":"他心中很擔心可不可以退貨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:12.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:14.745000+08:00","text":"對，當然查到了哪一批有問題，我們就會宣布，他就可以退貨……","quality":0.458},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:14.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:18.351000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是說查到沒問題就叫他繼續用喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:19.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:25.182000+08:00","text":"查到有問題，我們就會宣布，宣布之後那一批大家就按照這個退貨原則去退。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:25.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:33.828000+08:00","text":"我希望你的平台可以更公開透明，現在你就是叫大家問業者，看地方政府的宣布，你什麼時候要把它統一？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:34.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:36.570000+08:00","text":"我們的資訊有一個專區可以查。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:36.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:41.393000+08:00","text":"我知道，在衛福部食藥署的下面，超難找的，你自己覺得難不難找？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:41.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:46.217000+08:00","text":"現在每個人都在關心這件事，你把它放在下層又下層。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:46.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:50.960000+08:00","text":"我們在食藥署首頁就可以看得到。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員菁徽","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:52.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:56.528000+08:00","text":"好，這些問題我再用書面詢問你，也希望你儘快回復我，謝謝。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:56.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:57.048000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:57.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:21:57.488000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:21:57.988000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:00.845143+08:00","text":"現在請王育敏委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時55分）謝謝主席，謝謝全國國人、委員、官員一同關心我們現在食安風暴的問題。首先，我們先播放一段影片。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員菁徽：請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：以前民進黨是用這麼高的標準在要求政府的，剛剛沒有聽到任何一句道歉，你也覺得你沒有做不對的地方，在這邊我想問，每個人都知道有1,300公噸的油大量流入全臺灣，昨天你的記者會說回收43公噸，43公噸跟1,300公噸來比，誰看得下去？你講得出來未來的目標是想回收多少百分比嗎？你講得出來現在已經有幾公噸吃到臺灣人的肚子裡嗎？請回答！"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，這一件事情因為延遲通報，所以造成我們無法即時介入，所以對於這個延遲通報所造成的這麼大的損失，我們一定給予重罰。"],["陳委員菁徽：聽起來就是你把責任推給延遲通報。"],["石部長崇良：5月13號就已經驗出有問題，但是遲至6月30號才通知主管機關……"],["陳委員菁徽：我只問你一個結果！"],["石部長崇良：所以這個延遲通報造成我們沒有足夠的時間去回收這些有問題的油品……"],["陳委員菁徽：我現在只問你一個結果！身為衛福部的官員……"],["石部長崇良：我們應該要嚴正的處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：身為衛福部的官員、關心全國人民健康的官員，你是不是應該告訴我們，就你們現在手上掌握的資訊，已經有幾噸其實追不回來了、幾公噸已經吃到大家的肚子裡面了，這你總要知道吧？因為你有統計啊！你有統計啊！你要跟大家講啊！你跟大家講有幾公噸你覺得回收不回來了，所以你的目標是從現在的43公噸收到多少公噸，是還沒有被吃進去的，這個總是你可以回答的吧！"],["石部長崇良：只要是還沒有出去的油品，都已經暫時停止了，這個沒有問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個3%而已啊！"],["石部長崇良：沒有做成產品的部分都是留著……"],["陳委員菁徽：3%而已，對嘛！"],["石部長崇良：我剛剛一直在強調的就是，因為延遲通報而造成我們沒有辦法及時回收……"],["陳委員菁徽：算了，你回答不出來……"],["石部長崇良：這非常地清楚……"],["陳委員菁徽：你現在回答不出來幾公噸已經吃到人民的肚子裡了。賴清德7月6日針對毒油回應說該下架就下架、該究責就究責，看起來你現在覺得你究責完業者，官員都沒有錯、這幾個官員都沒有錯，這些官員裡面有要去輔選的、有去跟立委沈伯洋報告進度的啦！不跟國人報告，跟立委沈伯洋報告進度，有夠奇怪的！然後賴清德說該究責就究責，所以現在是沒有要究責自己的意思啊？是不是沒有要究責自己的意思了？"],["石部長崇良：相關的責任在我們所有釐清楚這個事件之後，我們自然也會檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：我先唸幾段話給你聽，這是一個非常有名的學者講過的話，他說一連串黑心事件爆發，不但使國人對政府食品失去信心，也會使我國美食的商譽重挫。食安事件仍不斷爆發，黑心食品未曾減少，反而製造、加工更趨黑心，顯示我國食品安全行政完全失靈，傳統法制執行陷入困難。講到核心是要透過風險評估的制度，有關風險管理著墨不多，風險溝通更是付之闕如，食品安全未能有效管制。食安事件爆發後，主管機關更是手忙腳亂，消費者人心惶惶，然後採取公私協力還有自主規範的手段，希望透過業者自主管理、建立通報系統等措施，強化食安管制。藉由公、私部門合作，提高食安管制之專業與效率，惟我國未能體察民情與企業文化之差異，徒使自主規範成為政府卸責的藉口，有待進一步檢討。你猜這是誰寫的？想得出來嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這個我不清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：給大家看一下封面，這一篇是2016年姜至剛學者、姜至剛教授寫的「我國食品安全管制及法執行之研究」。我們來看一下他這篇是在講什麼，他這篇就在講食安風險管理不足，2016年就講了，風險溝通缺席，大家人心惶惶，政府手忙腳亂；自主規制變卸責？業者自主管理若無監督，恐成政府推責的藉口。我以為他穿越了！我以為他2016年以學者穿越來到2026年耶！現在他在檢討署長姜至剛！這樣子你都覺得你沒有問題？你2016就點出了，每一樣東西你都犯了！你覺得呢？還是你要去改你的論文、你的研究？這邊要回答嗎？沒錯？所以你們都沒錯，你2016年那個時候講政府講成這樣子啊！你這所有的東西每一樣都發生啦！"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，在2014年的油品事件之後，就成立了一個食品風險評估諮議會，透過這個諮議會訂出了食品違規事件下架的階層處理原則，就是把它依照風險分級，一共分成十類，所以才會有我們第一天……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，你10年前檢討政府的東西，現在一樣……"],["石部長崇良：這個就是在2017年訂出的。"],["陳委員菁徽：現在一樣一樣地發生，然後你還把責任歸咎給廠商，你剛剛的意思就是他們沒有自主通報，你2016年就告訴大家說業者自主通報會變成政府推責的藉口，你現在就是活生生地在呈現當時論文的樣子。","我們來看，這邊有一個很大的窗口，從5月13日到6月30日，5月13日就有人發現油有問題，6月30日中聯才通報給你們。我想知道，你有沒有掌握到6月15日這些油品廠商的秘密會議這件事，有掌握到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這個是事後調查的時候才發現的。"],["陳委員菁徽：6月30日之後？"],["石部長崇良：事件發生，就是7月1日我們開始進行相關的調查事件的時候，才了解到其實內部他們在6月15日就已經知情，所以我們才會給予重罰。"],["陳委員菁徽：他們討論了什麼？你要講嗎？快速地。"],["姜署長至剛：確切的內容我沒有辦法，但是我們知道他已經知道在6月10日以及之後由南僑跟福壽講他的油有異常的狀況，應該是有這個內容在裡面，以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以啊！你的論文不就在檢討說希望不要發生，5月13日到6月30日一千多噸的油流入市面、流到老百姓的肚子裡面，你就是在檢討這件事啊！結果你自己做不到，不是嗎？不是嗎？我問你，5月13日，根據你們的食安法，有任何人，有任何中央政府、地方政府收到通報嗎？因為根據食安法，認為有危害健康之虞時，應該要主動停止製造、加工，並且通報主管機關，有人通報嗎？"],["石部長崇良：就是因為沒有通報，所以我們才會開罰。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我們請2016年的教授來當署長也沒有用，他2016年就知道這些問題了，他現在也做不了什麼，不是嗎？看起來不是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：業者不能完全沒有責任。所以我們當時……"],["陳委員菁徽：那你呢？你的責任呢？那你的……"],["石部長崇良：那時候才會訂出三段的品管，一個是……"],["陳委員菁徽：業者不能沒有責任，這個我懂，那你有沒有責任呢？"],["石部長崇良：第一個，一定要有自主的檢驗。第二個……"],["陳委員菁徽：你有沒有責任呢？"],["石部長崇良：……檢驗，第三個審查跟後市場監測。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有沒有責任嘛？你有沒有責任？你有沒有責任？署長有沒有責任？"],["石部長崇良：我們的責任，等到整個事件調查清楚、處理完畢的時候，我們自己就會檢討。"],["陳委員菁徽：大概多久？"],["石部長崇良：我們現在還在進行當中，因為從4月到6月底，我們要他停止製造、中間所有各批次的樣本，我們現在都在送驗，所以我們還會繼續追蹤這些檢驗的結果跟可能涉及到的層面。"],["陳委員菁徽：我聽懂了，你剛剛的意思是，你把事情都做完，你才會檢討自己、你就會檢討自己。"],["石部長崇良：我們現在最重要的是趕快把這個事件確認，讓國人安心，這個是我們現在最重要所要做的，其他的事情是其次。"],["陳委員菁徽：很好啊！那我們來看看你怎麼浪費國人的時間，我看一下你的時間序，7月3日不公布名單，人心惶惶，不知道吃到的東西……有沒有受害？7月4日公布，但是跟大家說20%以上下架，20%以下自主管理、自己揭露，但是可以用，你覺得這個符合人性嗎？我不知道你怎麼訂出來的，等一下我們再慢慢講。","7月4日，還好你聽我的勸說，你沒有去輔選，不然所有地方政府的第一線稽查人員在處理這些油品的時候，你還在輔選！","7月5日，你突然說不下架，我也覺得怪怪的，這就好笑了！7月5日你都覺得怪怪的，不趕快說全面下架，拖到7月7日下午4點、昨天下午4點你才說全面下架。","7月6日，賴清德生氣了，他說該究責就究責。雖然你覺得你不用究責，剛剛從頭到尾聽下來，你就覺得不用究責。","還有一點，從你不公布名單到你現在決定全面下架，居然官員姜至剛署長的priority、輕重緩急分不清楚！你為什麼要跟沈伯洋開會、請問你跟沈伯洋開會報告了什麼？他可以精進你的什麼事情嗎？你不是應該要跟全國人民開會嗎？一個部長很知道自己的分寸、知道自己不要去輔選，而一個署長跟特定的立委開會，還做成新聞當宣傳，你到底知不知道你現在要做什麼事才是當務之急啊？署長，你要回答嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我們所有的資訊都會在第一時間公開、都會向公眾說明。所以過去每日的新聞稿之後，我們已經連續開了幾天的記者會，都是希望讓國人清楚我們目前處理的進度，以及所有我們掌握的確切資訊，都會讓國人清楚。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你跟綠委報告幹嘛？"],["石部長崇良：就像委員如果邀請任何……我們得到你辦公室，我們也一定都……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們不會邀請你，是因為我們知道現在你最應該報告的是全國人民，而我們不會用立法委員的時間。你要處理的是全國人民的健康跟安全，還有下架的流程、政策等等，你們完全搞不清楚輕重緩急，還被人家做成照片來宣傳。"],["石部長崇良：我想所有的委員都是為民眾來關心，所以要求我們說明，我們都會說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那我問你全面下架比較重要，還是跟綠委說明比較重要？你全面下架的時間還是比跟綠委說明還後面！比你輔選還後面！"],["石部長崇良：我們所有的進度都不會因此而停頓，都不斷的在進行中。"],["陳委員菁徽：昨天更誇張，2點一下說要罰錢，4點全國人民看直播，發現署長根本不知道你會出現在記者會，署長看到部長走進來嚇一跳，你要解釋一下嗎？如果說中央政府現在不太同調，我看你們內部也不同調！"],["石部長崇良：因為那個時間……"],["陳委員菁徽：如果你要宣布罰錢，就兩個一起宣布，怎麼會有一個記者會是署長不知道你會到？看你到了以後嚇一跳，趕快站起來讓位子給你，還要弄名牌，你們內部到底出了什麼問題？"],["石部長崇良：本來我那個時候的行程是在為護理人員頒獎，就是為了要彰顯護理的價值，昨天下午我們有一個頒獎典禮，所以我在臺大國際會議中心舉行臨床護理價值典範100的表揚。但是我覺得這個事情需要跟國人講得更清楚，所以我才縮短了跟護理人員的這個表揚大會，然後我們就提前……"],["陳委員菁徽：你也可以把姜署長拉到2點一起講！"],["石部長崇良：我才會提前結束。因為記者會在4點已經結束了。"],["陳委員菁徽：最奇怪的就是你2點講一次，4點還要講一次，4點一般基層公務員都要下班了，他們前面都在處理你的20%上、20%下，4點宣布竟然變全面下架。"],["石部長崇良：2點是因為我參加護理人員的表揚大會，記者堵麥我才先講，但是我當時也特別提到，4點會由食藥署的記者會正式跟大家說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：你也可以4點跟署長一起講，而且……"],["石部長崇良：因為我本來就有那個活動，所以沒有辦法參加這個記者會，後來我覺得需要把它講清楚，我才會……"],["陳委員菁徽：你去之前也可以讓署長知道，署長是看到你才知道。"],["石部長崇良：沒有！我是臨時縮短行程，趕到這個記者會。事前我跟署長講，我有活動沒有辦法參加，記者會還是按照原本食藥署的安排進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有關係，你昨天2點宣布一件事，4點宣布一件事，你就是在公務員下班前累死大家而已。再來也會有很多人問你，你要不要快速地講？如果你要再講106年，我們就不想再聽了，你還是要講106年嗎？現在有問題的東西放進去做成產品……"],["石部長崇良：106年是當時根據過往的食安事件，訂出了一個下架處理原則，我們第一時間是依照過去所訂下來的對外發布，所以食藥署是依法行政。但這個事件是第一次發生驗出油品有苯駢芘，所以我們才在7月4號再召開專家會議，大家就之前的下架原則再進行討論，依據這個事件的風險性再去討論下架原則是不是應該調整，然後才訂出這個20%……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係！人民沒有辦法理解的是，這個是很基本的道理，一個已經不合格的東西、原料，只要放到產品裡面的比例很少就可以。人民聽到只有這樣，那你訂標準幹嘛？你乾脆把標準訂得寬寬的，後面再跟大家說幾趴以下就可以吃，你訂標準幹嘛？還有你在公布20%上下的時候，也沒有說這是不是一體適用嬰幼兒、孕婦、脆弱族群、老人、長者，你要不要現在講？你訂的時候，有討論這些脆弱族群嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這個訂的時候是根據這個案件在7月4號專家會議，大家一起討論出來的，根據科學的證據跟推論所訂出來，提供我們作為處理的原則。"],["陳委員菁徽：我問這麼簡單的問題，請問你訂這個標準的時候，適用所有的脆弱族群嗎？我只有講這樣，你還在講106年。"],["石部長崇良：不是106年，我講的是7月4號專家會議，大家一起討論。那麼在106年的時候，它就適用……"],["陳委員菁徽：我問有沒有適用所有的族群？你只要告訴我，那天開會的結論20%上下，到底有沒有適用嬰幼兒、孕婦、老人就好了，有沒有適用？"],["石部長崇良：當時討論就是這個結論。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以適用大家嗎？"],["石部長崇良：就是這個結論。"],["陳委員菁徽：適用全部的人嗎？"],["石部長崇良：就是這個結論。"],["陳委員菁徽：全部的人，包括孕婦？"],["石部長崇良：你講的是106年的還是7月4號的？"],["陳委員菁徽：7月4號的。"],["石部長崇良：7月4號就是這個結論。"],["陳委員菁徽：適用全部的人？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：全部的人都可以？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們知道了，你就是訂一個標準適用全部的人，而且大家其實也聽不太下去。"],["石部長崇良：這是一個下架的標準。因為這個案例、我們106年有那個原則，然後我們發現這個事件之後重新討論出來的。"],["陳委員菁徽：你只要告訴我，萬一未來又發生這樣的食安風暴，你還會再找這種幾趴的事情訂標準，叫我們有一些上架，有一些下架嗎？你會不會？"],["石部長崇良：因為當時我們訂出一共有10類的下架原則是不一樣的，是根據它屬於哪一類來看，所以……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是，你以後還會再用這個原則？"],["石部長崇良：所以每一個都不太一樣……"],["陳委員菁徽：你的意思是，你以後還要再用這個原則？"],["石部長崇良：不是，我們事後會再做整個全盤性……7月4號先針對這個事件，這個事件完了之後，我們會再全面性對那個原則要不要再去做更清楚的擬定……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，我們看一下你本來要去輔選的日期，臺北市已經宣布一律下架，連醬料都停用，臺中全部停用，大家無所適從，不知道怎麼去算你的20%、20%以上、20%以下，你到7月7號才突然大轉彎，地方已經反映給你，有困難，中央為什麼經過了這麼多天才跟上？你們不承認從7月4號到7月7號這幾天有錯誤嗎？昨天網路上很多人在講，你們放出來的list裡面有超商的飯糰，還有超商的很多食品，從7月4號到7月7號大家已經吃到肚子裡面了，要跟誰究責？"],["石部長崇良：剛剛提到的都是即食品，所以都不會留到7月之後還會有，都不會！那都是即食品。"],["陳委員菁徽：有冷凍的，冷凍的可以放很久。有冷凍解凍吃的、冷凍微波吃的。"],["石部長崇良：據我們的調查是沒有，沒有這些貨存在，那個是即食品。"],["陳委員菁徽：我再跟你要你們的調查報告。"],["石部長崇良：我們有品項出來之後，才有辦法公布，所以我們是一直努力在把品項……"],["陳委員菁徽：我聽懂了，衛福部長現在告訴大家，7月4號他叫大家20%以上下架，到7月7號全面下架，沒有害到任何人，都沒有人誤吃，你的意思就是這樣，不是嗎？"],["石部長崇良：應該是這樣講，我們是根據專家會議的結論作出這個下架原則的建議，但是我們後面考慮到實務執行面的問題，衛生局反映之後，所以我們才在進行……專家的建議是對的，但是我們在實務的執行上必須去考量，所以才會重新調整。"],["陳委員菁徽：我告訴你，什麼人吃到了。你沒有下架醬料，很多地方的醬料都沒有下架。7月4號到7月7號已經有很多人吃掉醬料做出來的產品了，你還覺得沒有人受害，你還覺得你沒有任何錯誤。"],["石部長崇良：不是，我跟委員說明，7月4號專家會議討論出來的是根據科學證據、風險提出的建議，我們按照這樣執行，但後面是因為衛生局反映執行上的難度、複雜性，所以我們才在行政上去擴大，專家會議的……"],["陳委員菁徽：你到底要不要承認你的錯誤？"],["石部長崇良：不是，專家會議的……"],["陳委員菁徽：第一，你的錯誤就是讓基層公務人員忙翻天，一改再改。這是第一個錯。第二個錯，你沒有下架的東西早就已經做成產品，有的時候做醬料，做的東西很多，吃下去了。"],["石部長崇良：專家會議所提到的這些建議……"],["陳委員菁徽：又要推給專家？聽懂了！"],["石部長崇良：我們當然是要……"],["陳委員菁徽：剛剛推給業者，現在推給專家，等一下給你專家的報告，這是2016年專家寫的報告，這個就是專家寫的報告。"],["石部長崇良：所有的政策當然是按照科學證據跟專家意見彙整起來的。"],["陳委員菁徽：沒關係，等一下應該還有很多委員想要問你，現在我看網路上很多人想知道全面下架，他們要怎麼解套？你快速回答我就好了，有的已經用你沒有下架的醬料做的東西要不要下架？要怎麼執行？第二個，這175項從7月4號到7月7號，本來不用下架，現在才下的，風險誰負責？成本誰負責？有一些大賣場跟我們反應，7月4號就開始下架20%以上的，現在又做第二次，累得半死，成本誰吸收？最後，民眾根本分不清楚哪一些中標，要怎麼退貨？有一個阿嬤說他搞不清楚這個油是不是4月8號那個時間點做出來的，可是你有沒有去驗中聯之前的油是否有問題？他可能買到之前的，但是他也蠻擔心的，你也沒有出來跟大家講啊，你現在簡單的講，你要怎麼執行，你要怎麼退貨？你要怎麼統一查詢平台？一次講清楚，4月8號以前的油，你有沒有驗？"],["石部長崇良：第一個，從4月到6月底的，我們現在正在檢驗……"],["陳部長菁徽：4月以前的呢？"],["石部長崇良：因為這個是最有可能還在市面上流通的，所以這是第一批的查驗。至於4月以前的，因為之前我們就都在查他的檢驗紀錄，所以我們先從4月之後的先清查，因為這個樣本……"],["陳委員菁徽：你拿他自己的檢驗紀錄？你不是去查他喔？"],["石部長崇良：不是、不是……"],["陳委員菁徽：你都已經看到他……"],["石部長崇良：查他的樣本，他有樣本，我們把樣本抽出來送驗。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你4月8號以前的拿了沒？4月8號以前樣本拿了沒？"],["石部長崇良：因為他的保存問題，所以我們先從……因為這一些是還有可能在……其他都已經……現在這個是還有可能在市面上的要優先，要把現在這個先處理掉，更早以前的有些都已經沒有在市面上了，我們先從還可能在市面上的優先清查……"],["陳委員菁徽：還可能在市面上的，阿公阿嬤關心啦，如果不是4月8號到4月10號，他可不可以退貨？他心中很擔心可不可以退貨？"],["石部長崇良：對，當然查到了哪一批有問題，我們就會宣布，他就可以退貨……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說查到沒問題就叫他繼續用喔？"],["石部長崇良：查到有問題，我們就會宣布，宣布之後那一批大家就按照這個退貨原則去退。"],["陳委員菁徽：我希望你的平台可以更公開透明，現在你就是叫大家問業者，看地方政府的宣布，你什麼時候要把它統一？"],["石部長崇良：我們的資訊有一個專區可以查。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，在衛福部食藥署的下面，超難找的，你自己覺得難不難找？現在每個人都在關心這件事，你把它放在下層又下層。"],["石部長崇良：我們在食藥署首頁就可以看得到。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這些問題我再用書面詢問你，也希望你儘快回復我，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，沒有問題，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳菁徽委員的發言。","現在請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}