{"error":false,"id":["170339"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170339,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170339","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T10:22:07+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T10:41:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:18:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c82103aae1a3175a8aabf8c89d092fec882f4a89c27feb000dbf5071eed9bfd46deff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:22:07 - 10:41:03","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":5.38034375,"end":8.29971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":12.282218750000002,"end":13.193468750000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.290343750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":14.442218750000002,"end":16.58534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":16.922843750000002,"end":19.75784375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":20.11221875,"end":22.91346875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":23.132843750000003,"end":27.79034375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":28.313468750000002,"end":29.039093750000003,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":29.562218750000003,"end":31.637843750000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":32.329718750000005,"end":33.15659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":33.57846875,"end":36.025343750000005,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":36.244718750000004,"end":38.759093750000005,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":36.85221875,"end":44.361593750000004,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":44.74971875,"end":45.47534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":46.11659375,"end":52.42784375,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":51.56721875,"end":58.53659375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":58.367843750000006,"end":62.384093750000005,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":62.282843750000005,"end":63.531593750000006,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":64.44284375000001,"end":97.61909375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":65.60721875,"end":67.07534375,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":92.26971875000001,"end":92.69159375000001,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":96.18471875,"end":96.62346875,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":97.41659375,"end":104.53784375000001,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":104.40284375,"end":107.49096875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":107.49096875000001,"end":110.52846875,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":110.46096875,"end":111.54096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":112.03034375,"end":117.54846875000001,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":114.91596875,"end":115.30409375,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":117.27846875,"end":128.55096875,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":117.58221875000001,"end":118.89846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":128.55096875,"end":130.71096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":129.17534375,"end":131.77409375000002,"speaker_score":0.859},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":131.55471875,"end":133.37721875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":133.91721875000002,"end":138.35534375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"王委員育敏","start":139.26659375,"end":147.58596875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":142.67534375,"end"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謝謝主席 我們有請部長"},{"start":13.825,"end":35.557,"text":"部長我手上這兩個飯糰這個是今天早上還買到的富航豆漿在超商裡面的飯糰但是它赫然出現在你昨天晚上的名單當中我請問你我買了這兩顆飯糰還可以吃嗎還可以吃嗎要看是不是那個批號有一個日期"},{"start":36.477,"end":63.038,"text":"那我消費者我怎麼你不是說全面下架嗎那到底這一款的還可不可以吃你們下架完畢了沒我問你啊這個是由地方去執行啦那我們都會讓他知道是哪一批製造日期到什麼時候那我現在我是消費者我就問你嘛我今天早上買到的這個飯糰昨天出現在你的名單當中這不會在市場上這個一定都是安全不是那一批啦不是我們公布的所以是可以吃的對"},{"start":64.488,"end":75.943,"text":"完完全全安心可以吃所以你昨天晚上公布那一波的名單那到底是什麼時候不能吃的因為裡面有非常多上班族都憤怒了喔這一些飯糰是他會買的便當也是他會買的但是都"},{"start":79.428,"end":107.1,"text":"都在你昨天晚上裡面中標的名單當中所以我就要問說現在請問現在超商上面所販售的你昨天所公布的這些品項通通都是合格安全的嗎啊你不是說通通都要下架因為那些油都已經沒有再用了已經都回收了嘛所以他這個做出來的都是已經安全可用那所以你們昨天公布的那一批的用意是什麼"},{"start":107.54,"end":128.275,"text":"那是之前因為我們把他整個產品所以你掛保證現在開始超商上面所販售的這些飯糰都是安全無虞的可以掛保證嗎那些飯糰我們後面都有加注他都已經超過已經那個是即食品所以日期都已經過了所以現在在架上的都是安全的"},{"start":128.615,"end":153.885,"text":"都是安全的不用再下架了接下來我要問你喔這個泰山有新增一批超標的這個產品今天最新昨天晚上通報給你們對不對請問這一批的數量有多少然後流向到哪裡那現在我們正在跟這個彰化縣衛生局一起在調查當中到現在沒有掌握嗎"},{"start":155.905,"end":175.894,"text":"平常不是都應該有做記錄嗎數量有多少目前的這個潮是哪一個潮出來已經知道了那現在在查那個批次出來的批次跟他的流向現在在查流向"},{"start":176.624,"end":204.303,"text":"所以一波未平一波又起看起來不只是中聯這一批的油有問題這個會不會是系統性的風險我要問你的就是現在彰化先查出來這個也是中聯的油也是中聯的油那是中聯黃豹嗎他說他只有那一批是有問題那就不止囉因為我們現在正在驗他所有的每一批那這一批是什麼時候製造的六月以後製造的嗎不是五月間製造的"},{"start":205.58,"end":221.241,"text":"五月間製造然後一樣沒有驗出來所以這個品管真的是非常非常的有問題嘛廠商自己自主驗都驗不出來這個才是問題是所在啊應該是這樣講就是說過去呢沒有要求到逐批檢驗"},{"start":222.623,"end":244.77,"text":"所以它是抽樣的而且半年才驗一次嘛 是不是對 所以這個頻率就是我們在提的現在要提高那個抽驗的比喻還有頻率 還有批次啦這真的要加嚴啊我們完全靠業者自主現在的情況就是業者不可靠啊他的自主沒有到位嘛所以才產生這一次這麼大的一個食安風暴嘛接下來我要問你的是為什麼"},{"start":249.992,"end":264.359,"text":"你去分這個第一層第二層喔如果你剛剛講的說哎呀我這個都是有道理的齁7月4號還專家會議那你為什麼昨天生急急忙忙跑去署長的這個記者會然後就說通通給我下架為什麼"},{"start":265.76,"end":287.222,"text":"因為地方政府跑在你前面啦在你中央不宣布的時候台中市政府台北市政府都已經告訴民眾說一滴油都不可以我就是全部通通下架這就是展現一種鐵腕跟決心嘛這個整個食安其實就是零容忍啊"},{"start":288.447,"end":309.91,"text":"你怎麼可以允許他的成分裡面有明明知道然後就說沒有關係因為稀釋了哦這個對人體這個沒有關係你7月4號的那個會議就是一個錯誤的決策接下來我要問你是卓榮泰院長他說他人家老早他就有指示了他有召開會議他說他上個禮拜五"},{"start":311.091,"end":327.358,"text":"有找相關部會開會但是神奇了我今天看到食安辦的報告裡面沒有這個會議沒有提到7月3號有院長召開的會議食安辦提到的陳時中政委召開的跨部會會議是7月7號"},{"start":329.038,"end":355.598,"text":"請問7月3號你們有參加嗎?誰參加?食安辦有參加嗎?衛福部有參加嗎?7月3號主要是我們跟院長報告這個事件目前的處理情形那麼以及我們會在召開專家會議有哪些部會?沒有就主要是只找部長喔對 食藥署跟主要是我們去報告我們只要叫做召開會議喔對我覺得卓院長也未免太美化自己了吧隨便找一個部長來問幾句話然後就說我有召開會議沒有沒有 那也有相關其他的有做成會議紀錄嗎?"},{"start":357.632,"end":376.238,"text":"開了多久這個我沒有因為是在你不敢回答因為就只是叫你去聊一聊而已嘛沒有我們去跟他報告那他知不知道當時你有告訴他第二層不用下架不用前面下架我們有報告說我們的這個處理的原則不是我們的處理原則是根據106年所以他也同意啊對不對食品安全風險評估的諮議會所訂出來"},{"start":386.681,"end":413.52,"text":"7月3号你跟卓院长报告他也同意你这么做嘛不是所以院长有指示说应该要再考虑所以我们才会在隔天就召开专家会议重新再去检视当时候所定下的这一个这个处理原则是不是有需要修正的必要7月4号你们一样不用全部下架你们开完会一样不用全部下架因为这个专家会议的结果然后总统对外宣誓的也是很"},{"start":416.362,"end":438.696,"text":"總統對外宣誓的原則 他還是很開心說那個第二層就沒有達到20%的 這個也不用下架他對外還是這樣子講所以你們根本就是後知後覺是地方政府跑在你們前面 你們看苗頭不對了才緊急的昨天晚上你衝到這個署長的記者會說通通都給我下架就是這樣子嘛不是 這個因為這個專家的會議是這樣"},{"start":441.658,"end":456.783,"text":"那但是我也了解在地方執行上呢它面臨到有一些行政上它的複雜度所以我最後才決定雖然專家認為這樣是在風險上的考量是可接受的那但是在行政的執行面上"},{"start":457.703,"end":486.478,"text":"為了讓他能夠更迅速所以我才做這個決定你們這個就是7月4號根本就是一個錯誤的決定一開始大家對於食安是零容忍就是全面下架沒有任何的理由這樣子民眾才能安心但是你們變成一變再變一變再變然後導致到現在你還沒有辦法全部下架完成一言再言這個就是你們決策上面的一個疏失接下來我要追問的是"},{"start":490.161,"end":494.947,"text":"這1300噸的油的流向已經都百分之百掌握了嗎?已經百分之百掌握了嗎?呃 都掌握了你們現在數字都兜的起來了嗎?"},{"start":503.393,"end":524.975,"text":"因為它的油有的是變成加工食品那個就沒有辦法算頓了就是我們現在是第二層的所以所有的流向你都掌握了對 就是泰山福茂 福壽這些都掌握多少量都有了那它提供出去那你今天的報告為什麼不提出來產生的這個產品我們的項目也都"},{"start":526.133,"end":545.198,"text":"調查清楚之後公布在我們的網路全部公告出來包括數量包括那個流量這個第一個我要指導第二個我統計過我去調那個資料今年1到5月份我們巴西進口的黃豆總共有59.9萬噸請問這59.9萬噸有多少進入了中聯"},{"start":555.919,"end":573.15,"text":"中聯的進口我們有查到他的巴西豆的量多少這個詳細的數字在詳細的數字我們去確認的數字這個是非常關鍵你們還不知道美國豆一部分是巴西豆我們就來確認"},{"start":574.756,"end":591.833,"text":"你們不是說是巴西豆含水量高嗎它是有兩種它這一次的這個中聯用的油它有美國進口的 它巴西豆多少它有美國的豆跟巴西的豆所以你不知道 到現在不知道這一點就是我今天要追查的"},{"start":592.774,"end":609.251,"text":"高達59.9萬噸的巴西黃豆我要知道它的流向到了哪裡顯然你們查了一個禮拜現在都沒有掌握流向如果這59.9萬噸你們之前對外講的因為巴西的黃豆"},{"start":609.912,"end":633.358,"text":"含水量高所以他的那個烘焙中間過程會產生致癌物的這個風險比較高在經濟部今天的報告裡面告訴大家說台糖用的是美國豆所以比巴西豆風險來的低如果這個假設成立的話我要追的就是那這個風險高的巴西豆流到哪裡去了"},{"start":634.198,"end":661.997,"text":"只留到中聯嗎這59.9萬噸其他的巴西豆還有哪一些留到哪裡你這個要問誰誰可以告訴我們那個流向是哪一個部會要負責這是源頭管理喔如果你們現在已經推論到巴西黃豆可能是有問題的那要去追啊這59.9萬噸到目前為止到五月份為止量這麼高跑去哪裡了只有進去中聯這一家嗎有沒有進到其他的煉油廠"},{"start":664.378,"end":679.728,"text":"或者是到其他的通路 有沒有跟古人說明的話我們主要是針對另外還有三家煉油廠去了解那麼他們用的豆主要都是以美國豆為主有沒有混到巴西豆好像目前的了解沒有嘛 主要是你們有沒有抽菸"},{"start":681.312,"end":698.694,"text":"跟委員報告那關於這個巴西豆的部分呢其實在這個河川採購的時候應該有些因為他是單半球的部分所以他有季節性有些廠商他會去河川採購美國跟巴西的對"},{"start":700.035,"end":726.454,"text":"那但是呢在這三中聯以外的三家煉油廠裡面他們的自主管理其實做的是比中聯還要來得好因為在整個製程裡面他從原料驗收到毛油產生之後他還會再去做檢驗那檢驗到最後在整個後續的脫色脫臭跟這個脫色的過程當中他就會把這樣的一個物質把它降低到最好的一個限量標準以下"},{"start":726.934,"end":741.028,"text":"所以他一樣有進巴西豆對不對只是他的製程比較好那你們有去抽驗他的這其他電油廠他的品質嗎基本上我們在進口的部分我們在邊境也是在抽驗中因為"},{"start":742.549,"end":767.569,"text":"豆子的過程它還有保存的問題所以第一個我們是從源頭在邊境就會去查驗所以邊境我們從112年1月到115年6月間那麼其實我們都在邊境有一些抽驗但是你過去的抽驗也沒有解決中聯但是呢因為到了製程端因為它這中間還有保存所以製程端過去你們沒有加強查驗嗎"},{"start":768.55,"end":780.68,"text":"端是最重要那麼製成端在原料的部分是要驗的所以他才會有第一次他的檢驗是合格的他4月份他也有驗這一批那他驗出來是合格但是因為後面這個"},{"start":782.973,"end":810.471,"text":"變成成品的部分到下游的時候才驗出反回來驗出說它這個油有問題我們現在才回頭來檢視那它的豆子既然驗第一次又是合格但是第二次又是不合格就表示說它的這個品質混因為它有混它有混這個美國豆跟巴西豆的那這個檢驗上的抽樣採樣是不是要調整所以這個就是現在目前在調查當中的"},{"start":811.203,"end":814.504,"text":"我覺得我們對於那個自由的過程那個品管喔光靠廠商自律是不夠的這次已經告訴我們光靠廠商自律是不夠的所以我要問你的是我們政府的責任我們的他律機制未來你怎麼樣加嚴在整個從進口原料到他的製程他的產製的過程當中都應該要有政府的角色就是"},{"start":837.892,"end":842.135,"text":"他方的他綠的這個檢驗機制我覺得一定要雙管你才有可能確保這些油品的品質要不然你這個整個上游的油品一出問題之後你看你這次1300噸你現在回收率不到3%啊幾乎都已經下渡了啦"},{"start":855.305,"end":877.692,"text":"我們現在是要把他三級評管要再檢討啦過去我們有三級評管一個就是他自己的自主檢驗第二個是送外部檢驗第三個是後市場檢驗所以有這三級評管那麼第一個就是他自主檢驗的部分要在哪一些節點要檢驗那麼檢驗的方式抽樣的細部規定這個是我們"},{"start":878.912,"end":896.513,"text":"我要求你們要有一個很完整的檢討報告今天的報告只有266個字精進作為我算過266個字這不叫精進作為這比小學生的作文那個字數還要少我剛講的這個品管的要求你這一個從你的進口"},{"start":898.695,"end":909.38,"text":"源頭還有整個製程的過程你的這個加研的機制改善的機制我要求這個要做成一個非常完整的報告這個我們會整個檢討完之後會把這個三級評管那麼會重新再檢討這個我要求另外一個關於通報機制失靈這件事情這個是一個很大的問題這個食安法裡面第七條第五項"},{"start":922.965,"end":937.379,"text":"要求食品業者你一旦發現有危害安全衛生之虞要主動停止製造而且還要通報主管機關但是這次的事件我們發現通通都沒有做到而且還隱匿偷偷開會"},{"start":938.94,"end":953.327,"text":"然後好像自己要私了 自己解決這個通報機制完全失靈啊這怎麼辦這個江署長剛剛有委員說你在擔任學者的時候就有看到這個問題你擔任署長也解決不了這個業者不自主通報"},{"start":954.808,"end":979.335,"text":"這個要怎麼處理 而且源頭喔這一次油品的問題告訴大家什麼它源頭有問題 因為它會混油它混到其他產品會有比例的問題你從市場的後端末端你的查驗是查不出來的 沒有問題的因為被混掉了所以針對源頭的這邊廠商又不願意自主通報的時候請問你的機制是什麼在這件事情上面第一個呢 這個"},{"start":980.675,"end":1008.305,"text":"自主檢驗的部分還是要強化而且頻率要增加或批次增加這個都要強化那麼自主檢驗之外呢還要有要求外部檢驗他要送外部所以這是第二層外部檢驗那用這兩個來強化那麼當然除了對於沒有誠實通報的那麼要加重處罰之外另外也要有催哨者條款這是我們從過去幾次的慈安檢驗催哨者條款已經存在啦催哨者條款"},{"start":1009.245,"end":1023.336,"text":"過去也會發生過作用針對這些重大的我上次已經講過這些重大的原物料的是最上游的這些廠商你不能放任他只有自主檢驗機制你絕對還要有第三方"},{"start":1026.798,"end":1053.923,"text":"由政府委託公先力去抽驗的機制你這樣子才可以及時你的抽驗也是讓他不敢去怠惰你現在完全放任自主管理就是沒有辦法達到這樣的一個功能業者都擔心損失的情況底下他就選擇隱匿他就選擇延遲但是始終犧牲的就是人民的健康跟委員說明因為我們現在就是開始做這樣的事情就是我們現在對另外這三家已經強化由我們食藥組的同仁去"},{"start":1057.003,"end":1074.796,"text":"去抽煙 去送煙了這未來就會變成常態機制這個不是只是個案這必須變成是一個NL車以後就會變成常態而且要變成是有法律 有法則因為這個上游就是這四家主要的煉油廠 這四家所以這個未來我們就會融入成常規性的外部抽煙"},{"start":1075.609,"end":1093.641,"text":"好 這個部分我要求經過這一次這麼重大的這個食安事件我覺得民眾真的很恐慌那民眾對食安的標準只會越來越嚴格這一次所有的缺漏都應該要完成然後你們要寫成最完整的這個檢討報告絕對不是今天敷衍委員會266個字的精進作為這個我們完全沒有辦法接受守護食安這個是大家責任而且中央我最後提醒"},{"start":1104.828,"end":1133.336,"text":"在那個過程當中未來我們會把它強化在那個過程當中有地方政府他們願意多做事你們食藥署還告訴人家說不用啊幹嘛一直去那個廠商的連結沒有沒有沒有我們跟中央我們跟中央都是密切在合作中央地方是密切合作的地方要願意多檢查多做事中央不可以還擺出官威說中央跟地方都是緊密在合作的這個大家都是一起如果有請改正好謝謝"},{"start":1134.137,"end":1134.661,"text":"好 謝謝王燕鳴委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:12.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:13.952000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席，我們有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:13.952000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:17.388500+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:17.388500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.825000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:20.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:39.535000+08:00","text":"部長，我手上這兩個飯糰是今天早上才買到的阜杭豆漿在超商裡面的飯糰，但是它赫然出現在你昨天晚上的名單當中，我請問你，我買了這兩顆飯糰還可以吃嗎？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:39.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:40.616000+08:00","text":"還可以吃嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:40.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:42.537000+08:00","text":"要看是不是那個批號，有一個日期，看它的日期。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:44.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:47.520000+08:00","text":"我消費者我怎麼……你不是說全面下架嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:47.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:49.522000+08:00","text":"到底這一款還可不可以吃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:49.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:51.083000+08:00","text":"你們下架完畢了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:51.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:52.264000+08:00","text":"我問你啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:53.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:22:58.629000+08:00","text":"這個是由地方去執行啦，我們都會讓他知道是哪一批、製造日期到什麼時候。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:22:59.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:01.111000+08:00","text":"現在我是消費者，我就問你嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:01.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:05.214000+08:00","text":"我今天早上買到的這個飯糰，昨天出現在你的名單當中……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:05.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:09.258000+08:00","text":"這不會在市場上，這個一定都是安全，不是那一批啦，不是我們公布的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:09.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:10.038000+08:00","text":"所以是可以吃的？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:11.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:13.691000+08:00","text":"完完全全安心可以吃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:13.691000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:14.691000+08:00","text":"可以、可以，可以吃。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:13.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:17.636000+08:00","text":"所以你昨天晚上公布那一波的名單，到底是什麼時候的不能吃？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:17.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:42.155000+08:00","text":"因為裡面有非常多……上班族都憤怒了，這些飯糰是他會買的，便當也是他會買的，但是都在你昨天晚上裡面中標的名單當中，所以我就要問，請問現在超商上面所販售的，你昨天所公布的這些品項，通通都是合格安全的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:42.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:44.376000+08:00","text":"你不是說通通都要下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:44.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:51.299000+08:00","text":"因為那些油都已經沒有在用了，已經都回收了嘛，所以它這個做出來的都是已經安全可用的。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:51.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:54.100000+08:00","text":"所以你們昨天公布的那一批的用意是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:54.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:23:57.262000+08:00","text":"那個是之前，因為我們把他整個產品……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:23:57.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:06.529000+08:00","text":"所以你掛保證，現在開始超商上面所販售的這些飯糰都是安全無虞的，可以掛保證嘛？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:06.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:15.255000+08:00","text":"對、是，那些飯糰，我們後面都有加註，都已經……那個是即食品，所以日期都已經過了，所以現在在架上的都是安全的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:15.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:17.536000+08:00","text":"都是安全的，不用再下架了？對、對。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:19.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:30.841000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我要問你，泰山有新增一批超標的產品，今天最新的，昨天晚上通報給你們，對不對？對。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:30.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:34.963000+08:00","text":"請問這一批的數量有多少，然後流向到哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:35.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:39.725000+08:00","text":"現在我們正在跟彰化縣衛生局一起調查當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:39.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:40.885000+08:00","text":"到現在沒有掌握嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:42.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:51.189000+08:00","text":"平常不是都應該有做紀錄嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:51.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:51.629000+08:00","text":"數量有多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:51.629000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:52.629000+08:00","text":"對，他現在是往上游在追，下午我們會再跟大家說明，把它確認。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:52.629000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:24:53.629000+08:00","text":"數量有多少？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:24:53.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:02.874000+08:00","text":"目前是哪一個槽出來的已經知道了，現在在查出來的批次跟它的流向，現在在查流向。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:03.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:12.690000+08:00","text":"所以一波未平、一波又起，看起來不只是中聯這一批的油有問題，這會不會是系統性的風險？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:12.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:13.911000+08:00","text":"我要問你的就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:14.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:16.813000+08:00","text":"這個現在彰化縣查出來的也是中聯的油、也是中聯的油……","quality":0.565},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:17.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:19.815000+08:00","text":"也是中聯的油，那是中聯謊報嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:19.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:20.815000+08:00","text":"另外一批……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:19.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:23.598000+08:00","text":"他說他只有那一批是有問題，那就不只囉！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:23.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:26.360000+08:00","text":"因為我們現在正在驗他所有的每一批。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:26.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:27.761000+08:00","text":"這一批是什麼時候製造的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:28.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:30.223000+08:00","text":"6月以後製造的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:30.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:31.283000+08:00","text":"不是，5月間製造的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:32.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:35.424000+08:00","text":"5月間製造，然後一樣沒有驗出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:35.424000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:39.129000+08:00","text":"所以這個品管真的是非常非常有問題嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:39.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:43.956000+08:00","text":"廠商自己自主驗都驗不出來，這才是問題之所在。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:44.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:52.044000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣講，就是過去沒有要求到逐批檢驗，所以他是抽樣的……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:52.044000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:53.044000+08:00","text":"是不是太鬆啊？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:52.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:53.564000+08:00","text":"而且半年才驗一次嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:53.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:25:54.605000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:25:54.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:01.507000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個頻率就是我們在提的，現在要提高抽驗的比例、頻率還有批次……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:02.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:02.847000+08:00","text":"現在要加嚴啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:02.847000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:03.908000+08:00","text":"對，未來就是要加嚴。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:03.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:10.150000+08:00","text":"我們完全靠業者自主，現在的情況就是業者不可靠，他的自主沒有到位嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:10.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:11.270000+08:00","text":"所以才產生這次這麼大的一個食安風暴嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:11.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:18.853000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問你的是，為什麼你去分第一層、第二層？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:19.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:31.359000+08:00","text":"，如果你剛剛講的，哎呀，這個都是有道理的，7月4號還開專家會議，你為什麼昨天急急忙忙跑去署長的記者會，然後就說通通給我下架，為什麼？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:31.359000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:32.760000+08:00","text":"應該是這麼說，就是說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:32.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:26:50.378000+08:00","text":"因為地方政府跑在你前面啦，在你中央不宣布的時候，臺中市政府、臺北市政府都已經告訴民眾說一滴油都不可以，我就是全部通通下架，這就是展現一種鐵腕跟決心嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:26:51.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:00.713000+08:00","text":"整個食安其實就是零容忍啊，你怎麼可以允許他的成分裡面有，明明知道然後卻說沒有關係？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:00.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:08.501000+08:00","text":"因為稀釋了，這個對人體沒有關係，你在7月4號的那個會議就是一個錯誤的決策。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:08.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:37.780000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問你的是，卓榮泰院長說，人家他老早就有指示了，他有召開會議，他說他上個禮拜五有找相關部會開會，但是神奇了，我今天看到食安辦的報告裡面沒有這個會議，沒有提到7月3號院長有召開會議，食安辦提到的陳時中政委召開的跨部會會議是7月7號，請問7月3號你們有參加嗎？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:37.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:37.780000+08:00","text":"誰參加？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:37.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:39.221000+08:00","text":"食安辦有參加嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:39.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:40.382000+08:00","text":"衛福部有參加嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:40.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:46.566000+08:00","text":"7月3號，主要是我們跟院長報告這個事件目前的處理情形，以及我們會再召開專家會議。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:46.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:47.787000+08:00","text":"有哪些部會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:48.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:48.448000+08:00","text":"最主要是我們食藥署……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:49.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:50.029000+08:00","text":"只找部長喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:50.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:52.991000+08:00","text":"對，食藥署，主要是我們去報告……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:53.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:27:54.452000+08:00","text":"這樣叫做召開會議喔？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:27:54.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:00.236000+08:00","text":"我覺得卓院長也未免太美化自己了吧，隨便找一個部長來問幾句話，然後就說我有召開會議……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:00.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:01.857000+08:00","text":"沒有，他也有相關其他的……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:02.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:02.598000+08:00","text":"有做成會議紀錄嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:04.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:05.012000+08:00","text":"開了多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:06.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:07.693000+08:00","text":"這個我沒有……因為是在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:07.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:11.514000+08:00","text":"你不敢回答，因為就只是叫你去聊一聊而已嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:11.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:13.115000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們去跟他報告目前整個……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:13.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:16.876000+08:00","text":"他知不知道當時你有告訴他第二層不用下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:18.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:18.736000+08:00","text":"不用全面下架？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:18.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:21.557000+08:00","text":"我們有報告說我們的處理原則……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:21.557000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:22.557000+08:00","text":"所以蓋牌是卓院長的決定？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:21.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:22.378000+08:00","text":"不是，我們的處理原則是根據106年有一個……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:22.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:22.918000+08:00","text":"所以他也同意啊，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:22.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:23.238000+08:00","text":"食品安全風險評估的諮議會有訂出來，然後我們有報告說……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:33.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:37.544000+08:00","text":"你不要講那麼多，你7月3號你跟卓院長報告，他也同意你這麼做嘛！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:37.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:28:52.715000+08:00","text":"不是，所以院長有指示說應該要再考慮，所以我們才會在隔天就召開專家會議，重新再去檢視當時候所訂下的這一個處理原則是不是有需要修正的必要。","quality":0.683},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:28:52.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:03.502000+08:00","text":"7月4號你們一樣不用全部下架，你們開完會一樣不用全部下架，然後總統對外宣示的……","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:03.502000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:04.502000+08:00","text":"因為這個是專家會議討論的結果，我們當然按照這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:03.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:24.956000+08:00","text":"總統對外宣示的原則，他還是很開心說第二層沒有達到20%，也不用下架，他對外還是這樣子講，所以你們根本就是後知後覺，是地方政府跑在你們前面，你們看苗頭不對了，才緊急的在昨天晚上，你衝到署長的記者會說通通都給我下架，就是這樣子嘛，不然你幹嘛去推翻7月4號……","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:25.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:36.160000+08:00","text":"不是，因為專家會議是這樣，但是我也了解在地方執行上，他面臨到一些行政上的複雜度，所以我最後才決定說……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:36.160000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:37.160000+08:00","text":"所以你們7月4號是決策錯誤……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:37.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:29:47.485000+08:00","text":"雖然專家認為在風險上的考量是可接受的，但是在行政的執行面上，為了讓它能夠更迅速，所以我才做這個決定。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:29:47.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:12.037000+08:00","text":"你們7月4號這個根本就是一個錯誤的決定，一開始大家對於食安是零容忍，就是全面下架，沒有任何的理由，這樣子民眾才能安心，但是你們一變再變，導致到現在你還沒有辦法全部下架完成，一延再延，這個就是你們決策上面的一個疏失。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:12.357000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:20.025000+08:00","text":"接下來，我要追問的是這1,300噸的油的流向，已經都百分之百掌握了嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:20.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:21.266000+08:00","text":"已經百分之百掌握了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:21.266000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:21.546000+08:00","text":"都掌握了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:21.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:21.947000+08:00","text":"現在數字都兜的起來了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:30.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:37.681000+08:00","text":"因為他的油有的是變成加工食品，那個就沒有辦法算噸了，就是我們現在是第二層的……","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:37.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:39.422000+08:00","text":"所以所有的流向你都掌握了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:39.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:44.367000+08:00","text":"對，就是泰山、福懋、福壽這些都有掌握多少量，都有了……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:45.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:47.851000+08:00","text":"那你今天的報告為什麼不提出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:47.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:56.314000+08:00","text":"他提供出去給業者產生的產品，項目也都調查清楚之後公布在我們的網頁……","quality":0.71},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:56.314000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:57.314000+08:00","text":"那你把它公告出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:57.314000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:30:58.314000+08:00","text":"有，已經公布了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:30:56.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:12.198000+08:00","text":"全部公告出來，包括數量、流量，這第一個我要知道；第二個，我去調資料，我統計過，今年1到5月份巴西進口的黃豆總共有59.9萬噸，請問這59.9萬噸有多少進入了中聯？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:22.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:28.983000+08:00","text":"關於中聯的進口，我們有查到他巴西豆的量。多少？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:31.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:31.865000+08:00","text":"詳細的數字在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:33.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:34.287000+08:00","text":"詳細的數字，我們去確認……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:34.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:37.289000+08:00","text":"這個非常關鍵，你們還不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:38.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:40.150000+08:00","text":"一部分是美國豆，一部分是巴西豆，我們再來確認。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:41.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:45.180000+08:00","text":"你們不是說巴西豆含水量高嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:45.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:51.005000+08:00","text":"他是有兩種，這一次中聯用的油，他有美國進口的……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:51.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:51.906000+08:00","text":"混了兩種，他巴西豆有多少？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:52.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:54.088000+08:00","text":"他有美國的豆跟巴西的豆，詳細的數字……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:54.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:31:55.930000+08:00","text":"所以你不知道，到現在還不知道？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:31:57.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:40.338000+08:00","text":"這一點就是我今天要追查的，高達59.9萬噸的巴西黃豆，我要知道他的流向到了哪裡，顯然你們查了一個禮拜，現在都沒有掌握流向，如果這59.9萬噸，你們之前對外講的，因為巴西的黃豆含水量高，所以他在烘焙過程中，會產生致癌物的風險比較高，經濟部今天的報告裡面告訴大家台糖用的是美國豆，所以風險比巴西豆來得低，如果這個假設成立的話，我要追的就是風險高的巴西豆流到哪裡去了？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:41.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:44.500000+08:00","text":"只流到中聯嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:44.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:48.183000+08:00","text":"這59.9萬噸其他的巴西豆還有哪一些流到哪裡？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:48.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:49.584000+08:00","text":"你這個要問誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:49.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:50.724000+08:00","text":"誰可以告訴我們那個流向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:51.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:32:52.946000+08:00","text":"是哪一個部會要負責？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:32:52.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:04.894000+08:00","text":"這是源頭管理喔，如果你們現在已經推論到巴西黃豆可能是有問題的，那要去追這59.9萬噸，到目前為止、到5月份為止，量這麼高，跑去哪裡了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:05.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:07.436000+08:00","text":"只有進去中聯這一家嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:07.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:08.997000+08:00","text":"有沒有進到其他的煉油廠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:11.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:12.619000+08:00","text":"或者是到其他的通路？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:12.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:13.079000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:13.079000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:14.079000+08:00","text":"不知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:13.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:17.842000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們主要是針對另外還有三家煉油廠去了解……對啊！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:17.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:18.842000+08:00","text":"他們有沒有進巴西豆？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:18.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:21.645000+08:00","text":"他們用的豆主要都是以美國豆為主。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:21.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:22.826000+08:00","text":"有沒有混到巴西豆？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:24.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:25.968000+08:00","text":"目前的了解好像沒有，主要是……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:26.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:33:26.708000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有抽驗？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"許組長朝凱","start":"2026-07-08T10:33:28.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:13.434000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於這個巴西豆的部分，其實在合船採購的時候，應該有些……因為他是南半球的部分，所以他有季節性，有些廠商他會去合船採購美國跟巴西的豆，一起來，但是中聯以外的三家煉油廠，他們的自主管理其實做得比中聯還要好，因為在整個製程裡面，他從原料、驗收到毛油產生之後，他還會再去做檢驗，檢驗到最後，在整個後續的脫臭跟脫色的過程當中，他就會把這樣的物質降低到最好的一個限量標準以下。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:13.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:16.016000+08:00","text":"所以他一樣有進巴西豆對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:16.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:22.202000+08:00","text":"只是他的製程比較好，那你們有去抽驗其他煉油廠的品質嗎？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:22.202000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:23.202000+08:00","text":"事件發生之後，你們有沒有去抽驗？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:22.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:44.121000+08:00","text":"基本上，進口的部分，我們在邊境也是在抽驗中，因為豆子的過程還有保存的問題，所以第一個，我們是從源頭，在邊境就會去查驗，所以我們從112年1月到115年6月間，我們在邊境都有一些抽驗……","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:44.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:47.343000+08:00","text":"但是你過去的抽驗也沒有解決中聯現在製油產生致癌物的問題……","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:47.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:52.367000+08:00","text":"但是因為到了製程端，因為這中間還有保存……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:52.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:34:54.569000+08:00","text":"所以製程端過去你們沒有加強查驗嘛！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:34:55.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:35:37.451000+08:00","text":"製程端是最重要的，而製程端在原料的部分是要驗的，所以他才會有第一次、他的檢驗是合格的，他4月份也有驗這一批，他驗出來是合格的，但是因為後面變成成品的部分、到下游的時候才驗出他這個油有問題，我們現在才回頭來檢視，他的豆子第一次驗是合格，但是第二次是不合格，表示他的品質……因為他有混，他有混美國豆跟巴西豆，在檢驗上的抽樣、採樣是不是要調整，所以這個都是現在目前在調查當中的。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:35:38.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:35:40.444000+08:00","text":"我覺得我們對於製油過程的品管，光靠廠商自律是不夠的，這次已經告訴我們，光靠廠商自律是不夠的，所以我要問你的是我們政府的責任，我們的他律機制，未來你怎麼樣加嚴？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:35:40.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:36:09.095000+08:00","text":"在整個從進口原料到他的製程、產製的過程當中，都應該要有政府的角色，就是他方的、他律的檢驗機制，我覺得一定要雙管，你才有可能確保這些油品的品質，要不然整個上游的油品一出問題之後，你看你這一次1,300噸，你現在回收率不到3%，幾乎都已經下肚了。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:36:22.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:36:44.692000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在是要把三級品管再檢討，過去我們有三級品管，一個是他自己的自主檢驗，第二個是送外部檢驗，第三個是後市場檢驗，有這三級品管，第一個就是他自主檢驗的部分，在哪一些節點要檢驗，檢驗的方式、抽樣的細部規定，這個是我們現在在檢討的，第二個是外部送驗……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:36:45.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:37:14.339000+08:00","text":"好，我要求你們要有一個很完整的檢討報告，你今天的報告只有266個字，精進作為我算過，266個字，這不叫精進作為，這比小學生作文的字數還要少，我剛剛講品管的要求，從你的進口、源頭還有整個製程的過程、你的加嚴機制、改善的機制，我要求這個要做成一個非常完整的報告。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:37:14.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:37:14.919000+08:00","text":"我們整個檢討完之後，會把三級品管重新再檢討。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:37:14.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:37:52.603000+08:00","text":"這個是我要求的，另外一個是關於通報機制失靈這件事情，這個是一個很大的問題，食安法第七條第五項要求食品業者一旦發現有危害安全衛生之虞，要主動停止製造，而且還要通報主管機關，但是這次事件我們發現通通都沒有做到，而且還隱匿、偷偷開會，好像自己要私了、自己解決，這個通報機制完全失靈，這怎麼辦？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:37:52.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:02.728000+08:00","text":"姜署長，剛剛有委員說你在擔任學者的時候，就有看到這個問題，你擔任署長也解決不了，業者不自主通報要怎麼處理？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:38:02.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:06.349000+08:00","text":"而且是源頭，這次油品的問題告訴大家什麼？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:38:06.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:24.914000+08:00","text":"他源頭有問題，因為他會混油，他混到其他產品，會有比例的問題，你從市場的後端、末端的查驗是查不出來的，沒有問題的，因為被混掉了，所以針對源頭這邊，廠商又不願意自主通報的時候，在這件事情上面，請問你的機制是什麼？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:38:26.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:52.864000+08:00","text":"第一個，自主檢驗的部分還是要強化，而且頻率要增加或批次增加，這個都要強化，在自主檢驗之外，還要要求有外部檢驗，他要送外部，所以這是第二層外部檢驗，要用這兩個來強化，對於沒有誠實通報的，除了要加重處罰之外，另外也要有吹哨者條款，這是我們從過去幾次的經驗……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:38:53.084000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:54.485000+08:00","text":"吹哨者條款已經存在啦！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:38:54.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:38:57.526000+08:00","text":"吹哨者條款過去也發生過作用，所以用這樣來搭配。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:00.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:39:34.822000+08:00","text":"我具體建議你，針對這一些重大的……我上次已經講過了，重大的原物料是最上游的這些廠商，你們不能放任他們只有自主檢驗機制，絕對還要有第三方、由政府委託公信力去抽驗的機制，這樣子才可以即時，你們的抽驗也是讓他們不敢怠惰，但你們現在完全放任他們自主管理，就是沒有辦法達到這樣的功能，在業者都擔心損失的情況底下，他們就選擇隱匿、選擇延遲，但始終犧牲的就是人民的健康。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:34.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:39:47.766000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們現在就是開始做這樣的事情，我們現在對另外這三家已經強化，由食藥署的同仁去抽驗、送驗，這未來就會變成常態機制。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:47.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:39:49.567000+08:00","text":"這不只是個案，必須變成是一個SOP。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:50.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:39:51.409000+08:00","text":"對，以後就會變成常態……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:51.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:39:53.630000+08:00","text":"而且要變成是有法令、有罰則的。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:39:53.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:01.776000+08:00","text":"因為上游就是這四家主要的煉油廠，所以未來我們就會融入成常規性的外部抽驗。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:03.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:19.740000+08:00","text":"這個部分我要求，經過這次這麼重大的食安事件，我覺得民眾真的很恐慌，民眾對於食安的標準只會越來越嚴格，這一次所有的缺漏都應該要完成，然後你們要寫成最完整的檢討報告，絕對不是今天敷衍委員會266個字的精進作為，這個我們完全沒有辦法接受。","quality":0.99},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:19.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:20.241000+08:00","text":"守護食安是大家的責任，而且中央……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:20.241000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:21.241000+08:00","text":"也跟委員說聲抱歉，因為這幾天我們同仁一直在進行這些處理……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:20.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:20.621000+08:00","text":"我最後提醒……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:32.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:34.629000+08:00","text":"所以這個報告未來我們會把它強化。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:35.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:42.851000+08:00","text":"在那個過程當中，有地方政府願意多做事，但你們食藥署還告訴人家說不用，幹嘛一直去廠商那邊檢查。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:43.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:43.851000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有、沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:43.851000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:45.812000+08:00","text":"媒體都報導了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:45.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:49.753000+08:00","text":"我們跟中央都是密切在合作，中央、地方是密切合作的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:49.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:54.594000+08:00","text":"不可以這樣子，地方願意多檢查、多做事，中央不可以還擺出官威說幹嘛要去！","quality":0.677},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:54.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:40:58.455000+08:00","text":"沒有，中央跟地方都是緊密在合作的，大家都是一起的。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-08T10:40:58.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:41:00.336000+08:00","text":"這個部分如果有，請改正，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:41:01.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:41:01.661000+08:00","text":"謝謝王育敏委員的質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:41:02.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:41:05.018143+08:00","text":"現在請廖偉翔委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時22分）好，謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["石部長崇良：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我手上這兩個飯糰是今天早上才買到的阜杭豆漿在超商裡面的飯糰，但是它赫然出現在你昨天晚上的名單當中，我請問你，我買了這兩顆飯糰還可以吃嗎？還可以吃嗎？"],["石部長崇良：要看是不是那個批號，有一個日期，看它的日期。"],["王委員育敏：我消費者我怎麼……你不是說全面下架嗎？到底這一款還可不可以吃？你們下架完畢了沒？我問你啊！"],["石部長崇良：這個是由地方去執行啦，我們都會讓他知道是哪一批、製造日期到什麼時候。"],["王委員育敏：現在我是消費者，我就問你嘛！我今天早上買到的這個飯糰，昨天出現在你的名單當中……"],["石部長崇良：這不會在市場上，這個一定都是安全，不是那一批啦，不是我們公布的。"],["王委員育敏：所以是可以吃的？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：完完全全安心可以吃？"],["石部長崇良：可以、可以，可以吃。"],["王委員育敏：所以你昨天晚上公布那一波的名單，到底是什麼時候的不能吃？因為裡面有非常多……上班族都憤怒了，這些飯糰是他會買的，便當也是他會買的，但是都在你昨天晚上裡面中標的名單當中，所以我就要問，請問現在超商上面所販售的，你昨天所公布的這些品項，通通都是合格安全的嗎？你不是說通通都要下架？"],["石部長崇良：因為那些油都已經沒有在用了，已經都回收了嘛，所以它這個做出來的都是已經安全可用的。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們昨天公布的那一批的用意是什麼？"],["石部長崇良：那個是之前，因為我們把他整個產品……"],["王委員育敏：所以你掛保證，現在開始超商上面所販售的這些飯糰都是安全無虞的，可以掛保證嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對、是，那些飯糰，我們後面都有加註，都已經……那個是即食品，所以日期都已經過了，所以現在在架上的都是安全的。"],["王委員育敏：都是安全的，不用再下架了？"],["石部長崇良：對、對。"],["王委員育敏：好，接下來我要問你，泰山有新增一批超標的產品，今天最新的，昨天晚上通報給你們，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：請問這一批的數量有多少，然後流向到哪裡？"],["石部長崇良：現在我們正在跟彰化縣衛生局一起調查當中。"],["王委員育敏：到現在沒有掌握嗎？平常不是都應該有做紀錄嗎？數量有多少？"],["石部長崇良：對，他現在是往上游在追，下午我們會再跟大家說明，把它確認。"],["王委員育敏：數量有多少？"],["石部長崇良：目前是哪一個槽出來的已經知道了，現在在查出來的批次跟它的流向，現在在查流向。"],["王委員育敏：所以一波未平、一波又起，看起來不只是中聯這一批的油有問題，這會不會是系統性的風險？我要問你的就是……"],["石部長崇良：這個現在彰化縣查出來的也是中聯的油、也是中聯的油……"],["王委員育敏：也是中聯的油，那是中聯謊報嗎？"],["石部長崇良：另外一批……"],["王委員育敏：他說他只有那一批是有問題，那就不只囉！"],["石部長崇良：因為我們現在正在驗他所有的每一批。"],["王委員育敏：這一批是什麼時候製造的？6月以後製造的嗎？"],["石部長崇良：不是，5月間製造的。"],["王委員育敏：5月間製造，然後一樣沒有驗出來？所以這個品管真的是非常非常有問題嘛！廠商自己自主驗都驗不出來，這才是問題之所在。"],["石部長崇良：應該是這樣講，就是過去沒有要求到逐批檢驗，所以他是抽樣的……"],["王委員育敏：是不是太鬆啊？而且半年才驗一次嘛！是不是？"],["石部長崇良：對，所以這個頻率就是我們在提的，現在要提高抽驗的比例、頻率還有批次……"],["王委員育敏：現在要加嚴啊！"],["石部長崇良：對，未來就是要加嚴。"],["王委員育敏：我們完全靠業者自主，現在的情況就是業者不可靠，他的自主沒有到位嘛！所以才產生這次這麼大的一個食安風暴嘛！","接下來我要問你的是，為什麼你去分第一層、第二層？，如果你剛剛講的，哎呀，這個都是有道理的，7月4號還開專家會議，你為什麼昨天急急忙忙跑去署長的記者會，然後就說通通給我下架，為什麼？"],["石部長崇良：應該是這麼說，就是說……"],["王委員育敏：因為地方政府跑在你前面啦，在你中央不宣布的時候，臺中市政府、臺北市政府都已經告訴民眾說一滴油都不可以，我就是全部通通下架，這就是展現一種鐵腕跟決心嘛！整個食安其實就是零容忍啊，你怎麼可以允許他的成分裡面有，明明知道然後卻說沒有關係？因為稀釋了，這個對人體沒有關係，你在7月4號的那個會議就是一個錯誤的決策。","接下來我要問你的是，卓榮泰院長說，人家他老早就有指示了，他有召開會議，他說他上個禮拜五有找相關部會開會，但是神奇了，我今天看到食安辦的報告裡面沒有這個會議，沒有提到7月3號院長有召開會議，食安辦提到的陳時中政委召開的跨部會會議是7月7號，請問7月3號你們有參加嗎？誰參加？食安辦有參加嗎？衛福部有參加嗎？"],["石部長崇良：7月3號，主要是我們跟院長報告這個事件目前的處理情形，以及我們會再召開專家會議。"],["王委員育敏：有哪些部會？"],["石部長崇良：最主要是我們食藥署……"],["王委員育敏：只找部長喔？"],["石部長崇良：對，食藥署，主要是我們去報告……"],["王委員育敏：這樣叫做召開會議喔？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得卓院長也未免太美化自己了吧，隨便找一個部長來問幾句話，然後就說我有召開會議……"],["石部長崇良：沒有，他也有相關其他的……"],["王委員育敏：有做成會議紀錄嗎？開了多久？"],["石部長崇良：這個我沒有……因為是在……"],["王委員育敏：你不敢回答，因為就只是叫你去聊一聊而已嘛！"],["石部長崇良：沒有，我們去跟他報告目前整個……"],["王委員育敏：他知不知道當時你有告訴他第二層不用下架？不用全面下架？"],["石部長崇良：我們有報告說我們的處理原則……"],["王委員育敏：所以蓋牌是卓院長的決定？"],["石部長崇良：不是，我們的處理原則是根據106年有一個……"],["王委員育敏：所以他也同意啊，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：食品安全風險評估的諮議會有訂出來，然後我們有報告說……"],["王委員育敏：你不要講那麼多，你7月3號你跟卓院長報告，他也同意你這麼做嘛！"],["石部長崇良：不是，所以院長有指示說應該要再考慮，所以我們才會在隔天就召開專家會議，重新再去檢視當時候所訂下的這一個處理原則是不是有需要修正的必要。"],["王委員育敏：7月4號你們一樣不用全部下架，你們開完會一樣不用全部下架，然後總統對外宣示的……"],["石部長崇良：因為這個是專家會議討論的結果，我們當然按照這個……"],["王委員育敏：總統對外宣示的原則，他還是很開心說第二層沒有達到20%，也不用下架，他對外還是這樣子講，所以你們根本就是後知後覺，是地方政府跑在你們前面，你們看苗頭不對了，才緊急的在昨天晚上，你衝到署長的記者會說通通都給我下架，就是這樣子嘛，不然你幹嘛去推翻7月4號……"],["石部長崇良：不是，因為專家會議是這樣，但是我也了解在地方執行上，他面臨到一些行政上的複雜度，所以我最後才決定說……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們7月4號是決策錯誤……"],["石部長崇良：雖然專家認為在風險上的考量是可接受的，但是在行政的執行面上，為了讓它能夠更迅速，所以我才做這個決定。"],["王委員育敏：你們7月4號這個根本就是一個錯誤的決定，一開始大家對於食安是零容忍，就是全面下架，沒有任何的理由，這樣子民眾才能安心，但是你們一變再變，導致到現在你還沒有辦法全部下架完成，一延再延，這個就是你們決策上面的一個疏失。","接下來，我要追問的是這1,300噸的油的流向，已經都百分之百掌握了嗎？已經百分之百掌握了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：都掌握了……"],["王委員育敏：現在數字都兜的起來了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：因為他的油有的是變成加工食品，那個就沒有辦法算噸了，就是我們現在是第二層的……"],["王委員育敏：所以所有的流向你都掌握了？"],["石部長崇良：對，就是泰山、福懋、福壽這些都有掌握多少量，都有了……"],["王委員育敏：那你今天的報告為什麼不提出來？"],["石部長崇良：他提供出去給業者產生的產品，項目也都調查清楚之後公布在我們的網頁……"],["王委員育敏：那你把它公告出來。"],["石部長崇良：有，已經公布了。"],["王委員育敏：全部公告出來，包括數量、流量，這第一個我要知道；第二個，我去調資料，我統計過，今年1到5月份巴西進口的黃豆總共有59.9萬噸，請問這59.9萬噸有多少進入了中聯？"],["石部長崇良：關於中聯的進口，我們有查到他巴西豆的量。"],["王委員育敏：多少？"],["石部長崇良：詳細的數字在……"],["姜署長至剛：詳細的數字，我們去確認……"],["王委員育敏：這個非常關鍵，你們還不知道。"],["姜署長至剛：一部分是美國豆，一部分是巴西豆，我們再來確認。"],["王委員育敏：你們不是說巴西豆含水量高嗎？"],["石部長崇良：他是有兩種，這一次中聯用的油，他有美國進口的……"],["王委員育敏：混了兩種，他巴西豆有多少？"],["石部長崇良：他有美國的豆跟巴西的豆，詳細的數字……"],["王委員育敏：所以你不知道，到現在還不知道？這一點就是我今天要追查的，高達59.9萬噸的巴西黃豆，我要知道他的流向到了哪裡，顯然你們查了一個禮拜，現在都沒有掌握流向，如果這59.9萬噸，你們之前對外講的，因為巴西的黃豆含水量高，所以他在烘焙過程中，會產生致癌物的風險比較高，經濟部今天的報告裡面告訴大家台糖用的是美國豆，所以風險比巴西豆來得低，如果這個假設成立的話，我要追的就是風險高的巴西豆流到哪裡去了？只流到中聯嗎？這59.9萬噸其他的巴西豆還有哪一些流到哪裡？你這個要問誰？誰可以告訴我們那個流向？是哪一個部會要負責？這是源頭管理喔，如果你們現在已經推論到巴西黃豆可能是有問題的，那要去追這59.9萬噸，到目前為止、到5月份為止，量這麼高，跑去哪裡了？只有進去中聯這一家嗎？有沒有進到其他的煉油廠？或者是到其他的通路？有沒有？不知道？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們主要是針對另外還有三家煉油廠去了解……"],["王委員育敏：對啊！他們有沒有進巴西豆？"],["石部長崇良：他們用的豆主要都是以美國豆為主。"],["王委員育敏：有沒有混到巴西豆？"],["石部長崇良：目前的了解好像沒有，主要是……"],["王委員育敏：你們有沒有抽驗？"],["許組長朝凱：跟委員報告，關於這個巴西豆的部分，其實在合船採購的時候，應該有些……因為他是南半球的部分，所以他有季節性，有些廠商他會去合船採購美國跟巴西的豆，一起來，但是中聯以外的三家煉油廠，他們的自主管理其實做得比中聯還要好，因為在整個製程裡面，他從原料、驗收到毛油產生之後，他還會再去做檢驗，檢驗到最後，在整個後續的脫臭跟脫色的過程當中，他就會把這樣的物質降低到最好的一個限量標準以下。"],["王委員育敏：所以他一樣有進巴西豆對不對？只是他的製程比較好，那你們有去抽驗其他煉油廠的品質嗎？事件發生之後，你們有沒有去抽驗？"],["石部長崇良：基本上，進口的部分，我們在邊境也是在抽驗中，因為豆子的過程還有保存的問題，所以第一個，我們是從源頭，在邊境就會去查驗，所以我們從112年1月到115年6月間，我們在邊境都有一些抽驗……"],["王委員育敏：但是你過去的抽驗也沒有解決中聯現在製油產生致癌物的問題……"],["石部長崇良：但是因為到了製程端，因為這中間還有保存……"],["王委員育敏：所以製程端過去你們沒有加強查驗嘛！"],["石部長崇良：製程端是最重要的，而製程端在原料的部分是要驗的，所以他才會有第一次、他的檢驗是合格的，他4月份也有驗這一批，他驗出來是合格的，但是因為後面變成成品的部分、到下游的時候才驗出他這個油有問題，我們現在才回頭來檢視，他的豆子第一次驗是合格，但是第二次是不合格，表示他的品質……因為他有混，他有混美國豆跟巴西豆，在檢驗上的抽樣、採樣是不是要調整，所以這個都是現在目前在調查當中的。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得我們對於製油過程的品管，光靠廠商自律是不夠的，這次已經告訴我們，光靠廠商自律是不夠的，所以我要問你的是我們政府的責任，我們的他律機制，未來你怎麼樣加嚴？在整個從進口原料到他的製程、產製的過程當中，都應該要有政府的角色，就是他方的、他律的檢驗機制，我覺得一定要雙管，你才有可能確保這些油品的品質，要不然整個上游的油品一出問題之後，你看你這一次1,300噸，你現在回收率不到3%，幾乎都已經下肚了。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們現在是要把三級品管再檢討，過去我們有三級品管，一個是他自己的自主檢驗，第二個是送外部檢驗，第三個是後市場檢驗，有這三級品管，第一個就是他自主檢驗的部分，在哪一些節點要檢驗，檢驗的方式、抽樣的細部規定，這個是我們現在在檢討的，第二個是外部送驗……"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求你們要有一個很完整的檢討報告，你今天的報告只有266個字，精進作為我算過，266個字，這不叫精進作為，這比小學生作文的字數還要少，我剛剛講品管的要求，從你的進口、源頭還有整個製程的過程、你的加嚴機制、改善的機制，我要求這個要做成一個非常完整的報告。"],["石部長崇良：我們整個檢討完之後，會把三級品管重新再檢討。"],["王委員育敏：這個是我要求的，另外一個是關於通報機制失靈這件事情，這個是一個很大的問題，食安法第七條第五項要求食品業者一旦發現有危害安全衛生之虞，要主動停止製造，而且還要通報主管機關，但是這次事件我們發現通通都沒有做到，而且還隱匿、偷偷開會，好像自己要私了、自己解決，這個通報機制完全失靈，這怎麼辦？姜署長，剛剛有委員說你在擔任學者的時候，就有看到這個問題，你擔任署長也解決不了，業者不自主通報要怎麼處理？而且是源頭，這次油品的問題告訴大家什麼？他源頭有問題，因為他會混油，他混到其他產品，會有比例的問題，你從市場的後端、末端的查驗是查不出來的，沒有問題的，因為被混掉了，所以針對源頭這邊，廠商又不願意自主通報的時候，在這件事情上面，請問你的機制是什麼？"],["石部長崇良：第一個，自主檢驗的部分還是要強化，而且頻率要增加或批次增加，這個都要強化，在自主檢驗之外，還要要求有外部檢驗，他要送外部，所以這是第二層外部檢驗，要用這兩個來強化，對於沒有誠實通報的，除了要加重處罰之外，另外也要有吹哨者條款，這是我們從過去幾次的經驗……"],["王委員育敏：吹哨者條款已經存在啦！"],["石部長崇良：吹哨者條款過去也發生過作用，所以用這樣來搭配。"],["王委員育敏：我具體建議你，針對這一些重大的……我上次已經講過了，重大的原物料是最上游的這些廠商，你們不能放任他們只有自主檢驗機制，絕對還要有第三方、由政府委託公信力去抽驗的機制，這樣子才可以即時，你們的抽驗也是讓他們不敢怠惰，但你們現在完全放任他們自主管理，就是沒有辦法達到這樣的功能，在業者都擔心損失的情況底下，他們就選擇隱匿、選擇延遲，但始終犧牲的就是人民的健康。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們現在就是開始做這樣的事情，我們現在對另外這三家已經強化，由食藥署的同仁去抽驗、送驗，這未來就會變成常態機制。"],["王委員育敏：這不只是個案，必須變成是一個SOP。"],["石部長崇良：對，以後就會變成常態……"],["王委員育敏：而且要變成是有法令、有罰則的。"],["石部長崇良：因為上游就是這四家主要的煉油廠，所以未來我們就會融入成常規性的外部抽驗。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分我要求，經過這次這麼重大的食安事件，我覺得民眾真的很恐慌，民眾對於食安的標準只會越來越嚴格，這一次所有的缺漏都應該要完成，然後你們要寫成最完整的檢討報告，絕對不是今天敷衍委員會266個字的精進作為，這個我們完全沒有辦法接受。守護食安是大家的責任，而且中央……"],["石部長崇良：也跟委員說聲抱歉，因為這幾天我們同仁一直在進行這些處理……"],["王委員育敏：我最後提醒……"],["石部長崇良：所以這個報告未來我們會把它強化。"],["王委員育敏：在那個過程當中，有地方政府願意多做事，但你們食藥署還告訴人家說不用，幹嘛一直去廠商那邊檢查。"],["石部長崇良：沒有、沒有、沒有……"],["王委員育敏：媒體都報導了。"],["石部長崇良：我們跟中央都是密切在合作，中央、地方是密切合作的。"],["王委員育敏：不可以這樣子，地方願意多檢查、多做事，中央不可以還擺出官威說幹嘛要去！"],["石部長崇良：沒有，中央跟地方都是緊密在合作的，大家都是一起的。"],["王委員育敏：這個部分如果有，請改正，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員的質詢。","現在請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}