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那主委 我再請教你 如果說像你講的那他是適用那個營業稅法的第10條還是11條呢 他是扣2%還是扣5%呢"},{"start":70.32,"end":99.689,"text":"這時候按照我們的那個他如果是不是金融機構的話他現在應該還是不是不是按照金融機構的方式來課稅啊你的主張是什麼當然我現在要聽一下你的主張等一下我問財政部對因為這個主要是在稅上的課我當然尊重財政部我說就以那個屬性來看的話所以你現在也還沒有很明確的就是說把它定格在因為你要看財政部的態度嘛"},{"start":99.889,"end":101.07,"text":"我想這個虛擬資產法在行政院的審查的時候 政委有沒有邀請財政部一起去參與"},{"start":118.77,"end":132.754,"text":"在虛擬資產這個服務法在審核的時候財政部應該都是有去參與的有去參與那所以就是說在你的主張裡頭就是虛擬資產它是適用在第10條還是第11條呢是不是請那個複稅署的署長來做說明複稅署署長"},{"start":139.557,"end":166.618,"text":"報告委員是因為第十條他是一般營業人他不是經營業者對他是適用在一般營業者對對對因為我們對金融業是有定義的那都是跟著金管會的定義可是你如果就是說現行的法規那你如果是用在第十條的話那他的扣稅是扣5%但是他有進向稅額是可以扣的那他只有針對服務費跟手續費的部分"},{"start":169.201,"end":189.441,"text":"剛才主委他講說它是一個金融性的商品是 但它不是金融品它不是金融那它算不算是在這個金融性的一個第十一條金融性的商品裡頭有七種就是說銀行跟保險的那5%以外的就是另外的"},{"start":190.427,"end":219.747,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們11條是用在金融業就是那個主體要先是金融業那因為虛擬資產業者我們叫VSP他並不是金融業所以他不是用11條然後他是用第10條的時候他是用雖然是5%的業稅但是他只有針對服務費跟手續費而不是整個虛擬資產的價值來課稅第二個他如果有鏡像稅額因為他是用加值型業稅所以他那個鏡像稅額是可以扣抵的"},{"start":222.971,"end":237.49,"text":"主委我想這個有一些爭議,那這個爭議其實我想再請教主委,就是說虛擬資產的一個本業,它的本業跟非本業你怎麼去界定它呢?"},{"start":238.17,"end":254.281,"text":"其實跟委員報告就是我們虛擬資產它是一個一個綜合性的業態像剛才我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面有針對它可經營的業務有些人做很窄比如他只做保管商遺傳商還有平台商那會根據不同的它會有不一樣的屬性"},{"start":255.402,"end":268.677,"text":"它跟我們現在的金融機構還是有些不一樣當然有些地方還是會有點類似像比如假如做借貸商它有可能比較像但是這個東西又是一個全新的領域那我們會根據接下來的發展再來看怎麼樣來去處理這些的問題不過"},{"start":270.899,"end":291.151,"text":"沒有錯 主委 你看喔 如果我們套用第十一條的邏輯的話就是你講的這個保管商 你的保管商還是你的交易所這個其實一個保管商是用在銀行 那你交易所你其實是適用在證件期貨這兩個性質是完全不同"},{"start":292.131,"end":312.751,"text":"完全不同的時候你要把它分別課2%還是5%那甚至如果像負稅署講的財政部這樣講的他是講說他是用在那個第10條那你們兩個是不是應該好好的討論一下當然我先提到這個因為我們剛開放這種新的那個業態出來的時候"},{"start":314.272,"end":342.626,"text":"那因為尤其像比如說假設保管部分銀行是做兼業的話那它兼業的部分它兼的是另外一個那個行業那當然在課稅上面我們當然就要把它釐清我想這部分我們會跟財政部會來講對兩個部會兩個部會應該是要進行那個磋商討論就是說給我一個書面報告如果覺得要修法就應該要提案該提案就要提案好不好"},{"start":344.547,"end":368.255,"text":"好謝謝那接著我來請教一下財政部長那個部長在金管會在今年5月5號針對的家族那個信託那這個百年傳承的課稅的一個原則其實已經達成了一個共識那他還發了新聞稿他還替那個財政部講了他說你們會發布那個課稅的一個示函可是"},{"start":369.615,"end":380.6,"text":"這個兩個月過去了我們沒有看到你們提出來這個原因是為什麼我想這個部分我們跟警管會還在持續的討論當中還在持續的討論當中兩個還在討論好 主委我要問的是我的這個老農家族信託"},{"start":391.294,"end":418.793,"text":"老農家族信託你給本席回復的就是說他其實就是在農花產業條例的第33條有明文規定明文規定就是說那個施法人不得承受那個耕地啊那就是他你就把這一套來告訴我所以就是自愛難行這個農地的傳承可是當這個是在26年前的一個法規"},{"start":419.814,"end":440.845,"text":"他做的一個那個法律的一個條文的一個修正的時候如果讓這個法律就卡住的話那金管會向來是一個比較積極的做事的一個單位是謝謝你們不想做了嗎也不是我想說法律是用來解決問題的對他已經製造問題我們當然會主動來去"},{"start":444.286,"end":459.355,"text":"因為只是說我們在回覆委員說以現況來看他確實是因為他要移到信託區那確實是就那個有一些法律的障礙那如果說真的比如說社會真的有這個需求我們就要想辦法來解決這個問題"},{"start":460.416,"end":477.042,"text":"社會當然有這些需求啊你也同意啊這麼多這麼多的一個產業啊這麼多的一些就是說你有這麼多的一個農地然後你這一個工具你只是靠那個農業金庫事實上它是受限的"},{"start":477.682,"end":499.567,"text":"那如果就是說我們根據課稅的法定主義者那個稅法卡住了我們都能夠協調處理的那為什麼這個農地的法規我們要選擇放棄呢這個沒有道理啊如果你這樣子消極了一個處理的話跟你一般家族信託的一個積極的推進那就完全是兩種不同的態度啊"},{"start":500.589,"end":520.924,"text":"沒有委員您誤會了就是說我們並沒有說就是打住我只是說因為其實我們在談那個未來整個上次上次委員質詢也關注過這個老農的問題農地的問題嘛這些問題確實是我們現在因為我們的信託確實在民國85年定到現在確實是有一段時間了那這也是為什麼我們這次在檢討假設說"},{"start":522.685,"end":543.164,"text":"未來我們整個傳承或是在做一個永續的這樣的一個比如說資產管理的時候這個是很重要所以我們也是尋求在未來在我們那個資產管理跟金融發展的專法裡面能夠針對這種信託能夠針對這部分來做一些突破這是我們未來規劃的方向啦"},{"start":543.624,"end":551.557,"text":"我想主委你有看到其實農民的資產的一個傳承是台灣特有社會的一個需求像我們常常會講這個它是產業其實許多的台灣的老農"},{"start":559.208,"end":576.602,"text":"憑藉著幾塊農地 他的資產遠遠都超過上億他都到了第二代第三代的子孫可以不務農 可是他們希望保有農地這一類的產業化的資產傳承的需求我們還是希望透過家族信託這樣的資產的傳承"},{"start":580.304,"end":596.438,"text":"這個是我們台灣特有社會的一個需要您提到這個問題就是說我們在推動這個連續信託其實不是只是針對所謂的大家認為是很有錢的人他其實可以來解決很多社會的問題因為我們"},{"start":599.46,"end":612.773,"text":"等於說我們世代都會移轉下去不管說你是很有錢或是你有這些問題要解決的我們假設把健全化這個信託制度以後其實我們也希望解決多面向的問題不是只是解決所謂的有錢人的問題不是這樣的"},{"start":615.496,"end":638.436,"text":"謝謝我想主委金管會就是對於金融商品的設計跟信託架構的一個研議然後找農業部就是農民身份的一個認定跟農地的永續的一個利用的原則還有法務部就是信託法跟那個農花條例的法律的解釋跟協調確實我想這種跨部會的一個協商我們趕快啟動好吧好的好謝謝兩位謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:56:22+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:56:23+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我們請部長跟主委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T10:56:22.170000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:56:23.013000+08:00","text":"我們請莊部長跟彭主委。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:56:32.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:56:32.749000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:56:34.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:56:35.010000+08:00","text":"兩位好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:56:35.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:02.218000+08:00","text":"我首先請教主委，上個月我們已經通過了虛擬資產服務法，也建立了虛擬資產業者許可證的制度了，在新的制度底下，虛擬資產的業者跟金管會所監理的其他業別，是不是一樣也是我們金融的特許行業？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:02.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:04.020000+08:00","text":"彭主委，虛擬資產是不是金融特許行業？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:04.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:11.305000+08:00","text":"在我們定位裡面它是個特許行業，但並不是我們的金融業……對。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:11.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:18.391000+08:00","text":"是我們金管會轄下的一個特許事業，但按照我們現在定義，它不是金融業。好。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:19.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:22.415000+08:00","text":"主委，我再請教你，如果像你講的，它是適用營業稅法的第十條還是十一條呢？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:22.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:22.655000+08:00","text":"它是課2%還是5%呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:32.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:41.103000+08:00","text":"按照我們的規定，如果不是金融機構的話，它應該不是按照金融機構的方式來課稅，這個……","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:42.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:43.363000+08:00","text":"你的主張是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:43.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:46.584000+08:00","text":"我現在要聽一下你的主張，等一下我也會問財政部。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:47.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:57:53.627000+08:00","text":"對，課稅上我當然尊重財政部，但就以屬性來看的話……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:57:53.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:01.669000+08:00","text":"你說尊重財政部，但你現在也還沒有很明確的把它定義在……因為你要看財政部的態度嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:01.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:02.669000+08:00","text":"在我們對金融機構的管理上面，它確實不屬於我們的金融機構。","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:02.669000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:03.669000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主委。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:01.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:03.070000+08:00","text":"部長，虛擬資產服務法在行政院審查的時候，政委有沒有邀請財政部一起去參與？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:22.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:25.551000+08:00","text":"虛擬資產服務法在審核的時候，財政部應該都是有去參與的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:25.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:27.232000+08:00","text":"有去參與？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:27.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:33.733000+08:00","text":"所以依你的主張，虛擬資產是適用第十條還是第十一條呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:33.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:34.453000+08:00","text":"我是不是請賦稅署的署長來做說明？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:34.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:34.754000+08:00","text":"好，賦稅署署長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:41.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:45.860000+08:00","text":"報告委員，適用第十條的是一般的營業人，不是金融業者。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:47.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:49.303000+08:00","text":"一般營業者嗎？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:49.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:50.303000+08:00","text":"它是適用一般營業者？對。","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:49.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:58:54.667000+08:00","text":"因為我們對金融業是有定義的，都是跟著金管會的定義。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:58:54.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:03.814000+08:00","text":"可是如果適用現行法規第十條的話，它課稅是課5%？","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:03.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:08.597000+08:00","text":"但是它有進項稅額可以扣抵，它只有針對服務費跟手續費的部分……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:11.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:14.524000+08:00","text":"剛才主委有講，它是一個金融性的商品……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:15.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:17.347000+08:00","text":"是，但它不是金融……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:18.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:29.859000+08:00","text":"它不是金融業，那它算不算第十一條規範的7種金融性商品中，銀行跟保險稅率5%以外的部分？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:32.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:43.815000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，因為我們第十一條適用金融業，也就是主體要先是金融業，但虛擬資產業者我們叫VASP，它並不是金融業，所以不適用第十一條。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:43.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T10:59:55.382000+08:00","text":"然後當它適用第十條的時候，它雖然是5%營業稅，但是只有針對服務費跟手續費，而不是以整個虛擬資產的價值來課稅。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"宋署長秀玲","start":"2026-07-08T10:59:55.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:00:01.727000+08:00","text":"第二個，如果有進項稅額，因為它是用加值型營業稅，所以它的進項稅是可以扣抵的。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:00:01.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:00:04.971000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:00:04.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:00:19.289000+08:00","text":"主委，我想這有一些爭議，這個爭議，我想再請教主委，就是虛擬資產的本業跟非本業，你怎麼去界定它？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:00:20.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:00:36.261000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，虛擬資產是一個綜合性的業態，像我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面有針對他經營的業務，有些人做很窄，比如他只做保管商、移轉商還有平台商，根據不同的它會有不一樣的屬性。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:00:37.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:00:50.677000+08:00","text":"它跟我們現在的金融機構還是有些不一樣，當然有些地方會有一點類似，假設做借貸商，有可能比較像，但這個東西又是一個全新的領域，我們會根據接下來的發展再看怎麼樣去處理這些……不過這個……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:00:52.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:01:13.131000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，主委，你看如果我們套用第十一條的邏輯，就是你講的保管商還是交易所，其實保管商是適用於銀行，而交易所其實是適用於證券、期貨，這兩個性質是完全不同。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:01:14.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:01:29.986000+08:00","text":"完全不同的時候，你要把它分別課2%還是5%，甚至如果像賦稅署、財政部講的這樣，他是用第十條，那你們兩個是不是應該好好討論一下？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:01:30.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:01:51.439000+08:00","text":"當然，委員提到這個，因為我們剛開放這種新的業態出來的時候，尤其假設就保管的部分，銀行是做兼業的話，那他兼業的部分，他兼的是另外一個行業，在課稅上面我們當然要把它釐清，我想這部分我們會跟財政部來做……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:01:51.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:01:57.402000+08:00","text":"對，兩個部會應該要進行磋商討論。是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:01:58.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:02.705000+08:00","text":"給我一個書面報告，如果覺得要修法就應該提案。是的。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:03.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:06.547000+08:00","text":"該提案就要提案，好不好？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:07.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:07.047000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:07.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:29.275000+08:00","text":"接著我請教財政部部長，金管會在今年5月5日，針對家族信託百年傳承課稅原則已經達成了共識，他還發新聞稿，他還替財政部講了，他說你們會發布課稅的函釋。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:30.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:37.338000+08:00","text":"可是2個月過去了，我們沒有看到你們提出來，原因是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:38.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:40.199000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們跟金管會還在持續討論當中。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:40.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:40.800000+08:00","text":"還在持續討論當中？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:40.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:02:40.960000+08:00","text":"兩個還在討論。是。好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:02:41.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:09.365000+08:00","text":"主委，我要問的是老農家族信託，你跟本席回復的是說，農發產業條例第三十三條有明文規定，私法人不得承受耕地。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:10.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:16.350000+08:00","text":"你就用這一套告訴我，所以就這個農地的傳承就是窒礙難行。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:17.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:35.221000+08:00","text":"可是這個是26年前的法規，做法律條文修正的時候，如果讓這個法律卡住的話，而金管會向來是比較積極做事的一個單位……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:35.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:36.241000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:36.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:37.822000+08:00","text":"你們不想做了嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:37.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:41.224000+08:00","text":"也不是，我想法律是用來解決問題的……對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:41.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:42.825000+08:00","text":"當它已經製造出問題，我們當然會主動去討論。","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:46.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:03:57.733000+08:00","text":"只是我們在回復委員的時候，以現況來看，它要移到信託去，確實有一些法律的障礙。是啊！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:03:58.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:01.355000+08:00","text":"對，如果社會真的有這個需求，我們就要想辦法解決這個問題。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:02.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:04.257000+08:00","text":"社會當然有這些需求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:04.257000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:05.257000+08:00","text":"對，這也是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:04.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:05.597000+08:00","text":"你也同意啊！對……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:06.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:19.022000+08:00","text":"這麼多「田僑仔」，就是有這麼多的農地，然後你這一個工具只是靠農業金庫，事實上它是受限的。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:19.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:31.425000+08:00","text":"如果我們根據課稅法定主義，那個稅法卡住我們都能夠協調處理了，為什麼這個農地的法規我們要選擇放棄？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:32.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:32.725000+08:00","text":"這沒有道理啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:33.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:04:41.427000+08:00","text":"如果你這樣子消極處理的話，跟你對於一般家族信託的積極推進，那就完全是兩種不同的態度！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:04:42.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:00.602000+08:00","text":"沒有，委員您誤會了，我們並沒有就此打住，我只是說我們在談未來整個……上次委員質詢也關注過老農、農地的問題，就這些問題，因為我們的信託，自民國85年訂定到現在確實是有一段時間了。對。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:01.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:24.924000+08:00","text":"這也是為什麼我們這次在檢討的，假設未來整個傳承或是做永續的資產管理時，這個是很重要，所以我們也尋求未來在資產管理跟金融發展的專法裡面，就這種信託，能夠專針對這部分做一些突破，這也是我們未來規劃的方向。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:25.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:31.894000+08:00","text":"我想主委有看到，農民資產的傳承是臺灣社會特有的需求。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:31.894000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:32.894000+08:00","text":"是的，對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:32.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:33.116000+08:00","text":"像我們常常會講：他是「田僑仔」。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:33.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:05:50.976000+08:00","text":"許多臺灣老農憑藉著幾塊農地，資產遠遠都超過上億，到第二代、第三代的子孫都可以不務農，可是他們希望保有農地。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:05:51.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:06.768000+08:00","text":"這一類「田僑仔」的資產傳承需求，我們還是希望透過家族信託這樣的資產傳承，這個是臺灣社會特有的需要。是。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:08.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:16.196000+08:00","text":"委員提到這個問題，我們在推動連續信託，其實不只針對所謂大家認為是很有錢的人。是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:17.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:18.398000+08:00","text":"它其實可以解決很多社會問題。對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:21.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:34.753000+08:00","text":"等於說世代都會移轉下去，不管你是很有錢，或者你有這些問題要解決的，假設健全化這個信託制度以後，其實我們也希望解決多面向的問題，不是只解決所謂有錢人的問題、不是這樣的。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:37.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:37.496000+08:00","text":"對，好，謝謝。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:37.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:56.092000+08:00","text":"主委，我想金管會就是對於金融商品的設計跟信託架構的研議，然後找農業部、農民身分的一個認定跟農地永續利用的原則，還有法務部，就是信託法跟農發條例的法律解釋跟協調。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:56.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:56.092000+08:00","text":"確實，對。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:06:56.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:06:59.855000+08:00","text":"我想這種跨部會的協商，我們趕快啟動，好嗎？好的。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.276000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝兩位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.276000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:07:01.276000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.436000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:07:00.936000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:07:02.936000+08:00","text":"謝謝賴委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（李委員彥秀）","start":"2026-07-08T11:07:03.236000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:07:06.378857+08:00","text":"接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":785,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時56分）謝謝主席，我們請部長跟主委。"],["主席：我們請莊部長跟彭主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：兩位好。我首先請教主委，上個月我們已經通過了虛擬資產服務法，也建立了虛擬資產業者許可證的制度了，在新的制度底下，虛擬資產的業者跟金管會所監理的其他業別，是不是一樣也是我們金融的特許行業？彭主委，虛擬資產是不是金融特許行業？"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們定位裡面它是個特許行業，但並不是我們的金融業……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是我們金管會轄下的一個特許事業，但按照我們現在定義，它不是金融業。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，我再請教你，如果像你講的，它是適用營業稅法的第十條還是十一條呢？它是課2%還是5%呢？"],["彭主任委員金隆：按照我們的規定，如果不是金融機構的話，它應該不是按照金融機構的方式來課稅，這個……"],["賴委員惠員：你的主張是什麼？我現在要聽一下你的主張，等一下我也會問財政部。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，課稅上我當然尊重財政部，但就以屬性來看的話……"],["賴委員惠員：你說尊重財政部，但你現在也還沒有很明確的把它定義在……因為你要看財政部的態度嘛！"],["彭主任委員金隆：在我們對金融機構的管理上面，它確實不屬於我們的金融機構。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，虛擬資產服務法在行政院審查的時候，政委有沒有邀請財政部一起去參與？"],["莊部長翠雲：虛擬資產服務法在審核的時候，財政部應該都是有去參與的。"],["賴委員惠員：有去參與？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：所以依你的主張，虛擬資產是適用第十條還是第十一條呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我是不是請賦稅署的署長來做說明？"],["賴委員惠員：好，賦稅署署長。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，適用第十條的是一般的營業人，不是金融業者。"],["賴委員惠員：一般營業者嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：它是適用一般營業者？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。因為我們對金融業是有定義的，都是跟著金管會的定義。"],["賴委員惠員：可是如果適用現行法規第十條的話，它課稅是課5%？"],["宋署長秀玲：但是它有進項稅額可以扣抵，它只有針對服務費跟手續費的部分……"],["賴委員惠員：剛才主委有講，它是一個金融性的商品……"],["宋署長秀玲：是，但它不是金融……"],["賴委員惠員：它不是金融業，那它算不算第十一條規範的7種金融性商品中，銀行跟保險稅率5%以外的部分？"],["宋署長秀玲：我跟委員報告，因為我們第十一條適用金融業，也就是主體要先是金融業，但虛擬資產業者我們叫VASP，它並不是金融業，所以不適用第十一條。然後當它適用第十條的時候，它雖然是5%營業稅，但是只有針對服務費跟手續費，而不是以整個虛擬資產的價值來課稅。","第二個，如果有進項稅額，因為它是用加值型營業稅，所以它的進項稅是可以扣抵的。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝署長。主委，我想這有一些爭議，這個爭議，我想再請教主委，就是虛擬資產的本業跟非本業，你怎麼去界定它？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員報告，虛擬資產是一個綜合性的業態，像我們的虛擬資產服務法裡面有針對他經營的業務，有些人做很窄，比如他只做保管商、移轉商還有平台商，根據不同的它會有不一樣的屬性。它跟我們現在的金融機構還是有些不一樣，當然有些地方會有一點類似，假設做借貸商，有可能比較像，但這個東西又是一個全新的領域，我們會根據接下來的發展再看怎麼樣去處理這些……不過這個……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，主委，你看如果我們套用第十一條的邏輯，就是你講的保管商還是交易所，其實保管商是適用於銀行，而交易所其實是適用於證券、期貨，這兩個性質是完全不同。完全不同的時候，你要把它分別課2%還是5%，甚至如果像賦稅署、財政部講的這樣，他是用第十條，那你們兩個是不是應該好好討論一下？"],["彭主任委員金隆：當然，委員提到這個，因為我們剛開放這種新的業態出來的時候，尤其假設就保管的部分，銀行是做兼業的話，那他兼業的部分，他兼的是另外一個行業，在課稅上面我們當然要把它釐清，我想這部分我們會跟財政部來做……"],["賴委員惠員：對，兩個部會應該要進行磋商討論。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。"],["賴委員惠員：給我一個書面報告，如果覺得要修法就應該提案。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。"],["賴委員惠員：該提案就要提案，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。"],["彭主任委員金隆：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我請教財政部部長，金管會在今年5月5日，針對家族信託百年傳承課稅原則已經達成了共識，他還發新聞稿，他還替財政部講了，他說你們會發布課稅的函釋。可是2個月過去了，我們沒有看到你們提出來，原因是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們跟金管會還在持續討論當中。"],["賴委員惠員：還在持續討論當中？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：兩個還在討論。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好。主委，我要問的是老農家族信託，你跟本席回復的是說，農發產業條例第三十三條有明文規定，私法人不得承受耕地。你就用這一套告訴我，所以就這個農地的傳承就是窒礙難行。可是這個是26年前的法規，做法律條文修正的時候，如果讓這個法律卡住的話，而金管會向來是比較積極做事的一個單位……"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：你們不想做了嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：也不是，我想法律是用來解決問題的……"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：當它已經製造出問題，我們當然會主動去討論。只是我們在回復委員的時候，以現況來看，它要移到信託去，確實有一些法律的障礙。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，如果社會真的有這個需求，我們就要想辦法解決這個問題。"],["賴委員惠員：社會當然有這些需求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：對，這也是……"],["賴委員惠員：你也同意啊！"],["彭主任委員金隆：對……"],["賴委員惠員：這麼多「田僑仔」，就是有這麼多的農地，然後你這一個工具只是靠農業金庫，事實上它是受限的。如果我們根據課稅法定主義，那個稅法卡住我們都能夠協調處理了，為什麼這個農地的法規我們要選擇放棄？這沒有道理啊！如果你這樣子消極處理的話，跟你對於一般家族信託的積極推進，那就完全是兩種不同的態度！"],["彭主任委員金隆：沒有，委員您誤會了，我們並沒有就此打住，我只是說我們在談未來整個……上次委員質詢也關注過老農、農地的問題，就這些問題，因為我們的信託，自民國85年訂定到現在確實是有一段時間了。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：這也是為什麼我們這次在檢討的，假設未來整個傳承或是做永續的資產管理時，這個是很重要，所以我們也尋求未來在資產管理跟金融發展的專法裡面，就這種信託，能夠專針對這部分做一些突破，這也是我們未來規劃的方向。"],["賴委員惠員：我想主委有看到，農民資產的傳承是臺灣社會特有的需求。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的，對。"],["賴委員惠員：像我們常常會講：他是「田僑仔」。許多臺灣老農憑藉著幾塊農地，資產遠遠都超過上億，到第二代、第三代的子孫都可以不務農，可是他們希望保有農地。這一類「田僑仔」的資產傳承需求，我們還是希望透過家族信託這樣的資產傳承，這個是臺灣社會特有的需要。"],["彭主任委員金隆：是。委員提到這個問題，我們在推動連續信託，其實不只針對所謂大家認為是很有錢的人。"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["彭主任委員金隆：它其實可以解決很多社會問題。"],["賴委員惠員：對。"],["彭主任委員金隆：等於說世代都會移轉下去，不管你是很有錢，或者你有這些問題要解決的，假設健全化這個信託制度以後，其實我們也希望解決多面向的問題，不是只解決所謂有錢人的問題、不是這樣的。"],["賴委員惠員：對，好，謝謝。主委，我想金管會就是對於金融商品的設計跟信託架構的研議，然後找農業部、農民身分的一個認定跟農地永續利用的原則，還有法務部，就是信託法跟農發條例的法律解釋跟協調。"],["彭主任委員金隆：確實，對。"],["賴委員惠員：我想這種跨部會的協商，我們趕快啟動，好嗎？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好的。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝兩位。"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴委員。"],["主席（李委員彥秀）：謝謝。接下來請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","李坤城","顏寬恒","賴惠員","陳玉珍","王世堅","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":471,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關財政部主管臺灣土地\n銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司（詢答）；二、審查中華民國115年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有\n限公司（詢答）；三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關\n金融監督管理委員會主管：（詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保\n險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1156102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}