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謝謝各位黨團的代表然後我們行政機關的代表也都到場了謝謝大家出席今天台灣民眾黨立法院黨團依照我們8月29號"},{"start":1991.502,"end":2012.172,"text":"第三會期第二十七次院會以及十月三號第四會期第三次院會的決定由台灣民眾黨黨團今天針對總共有四個法律案來進行黨團協商首先介紹各個黨團"},{"start":2013.633,"end":2036.464,"text":"出席的代表首先介紹民主進步黨的鍾嘉賓委員陳佩瑜委員以及中國國民黨羅志強委員陳慶輝委員翁曉琦委員林倩琦委員還有台灣民眾黨黨團的張吉凱委員陳昭芝委員"},{"start":2037.745,"end":2062.685,"text":"那今天行政機關列席的代表有我們環境部的政務次長葉俊宏葉次長那以及環境保護司的司長許淑子許司長那交通部觀光署的署長陳玉秀那其他交通部觀光署的同仁我就不一一介紹請見諒"},{"start":2065.24,"end":2067.976,"text":"內政部國家公園署署長王承基"},{"start":2070.471,"end":2096.348,"text":"經濟部的廠務次長賴建信賴次長以及法務部法治司的副司長林黛麗林副司長因為三個黨團的人員已經到齊我們現在開始進行協商今天協商有四個主題的案子我們先從第一案開始第一案"},{"start":2097.509,"end":2118.671,"text":"是環境影響評估法第五條條文的修正草案現在是不是先請提案的台灣民眾黨的黨團是由張祺凱委員我們先請張祺凱 張委員跟各位委員講一下因為希望各個黨團都能夠"},{"start":2119.941,"end":2142.155,"text":"公平的有一些大家多幾輪發言的機會所以我們我還是會請議事人員計時一下請大家時間還是控制一下原則上就是以三分鐘為限如果真的講不完的話我們再看現場時間的安排再來做決定現在先請張啟改 張委員"},{"start":2145.287,"end":2163.208,"text":"台灣民眾黨強力支持綠電可是發展過程裡面不能夠破壞環境永續發展更不能夠傷害到人民的生命財產的安全現在光電發展的過程裡面一直出現"},{"start":2164.609,"end":2183.093,"text":"環境遭到破壞山野光電板 海野光電板光是最近就發生了高雄大林三倍產評台南烏山頭水庫傳出到底有沒有可能洗的時候用清潔劑的這個爭議阿凱的故鄉 高野新聞"},{"start":2187.506,"end":2205.541,"text":"在丹納斯風災的時候製縫池就是水上行的太陽能光電板造成了嚴重的污染到現在為止很多專家學者說有些光電板沉到製縫池可能都還沒打撈上來上個禮拜彰化臟病公衛區"},{"start":2207.406,"end":2219.478,"text":"联合再生的这个案场设在朝间带竟然起火了我们追到的内幕是不是只有这一期之前还有发生火灾的真相都被掩盖了"},{"start":2220.916,"end":2242.384,"text":"為什麼造成這麼多的爭議很重要一個因素就是環境部長期不作為經濟部急著要發展太陽能結果連最基本的水上型的太陽能光電以前都沒有實施環評甚至有部分的地區只要經過主管機關"},{"start":2243.604,"end":2269.019,"text":"同意之後都不需要環評馬上就實施了太過於急救張沒有做好環評跟整個環境的保護出現了太多太多的漏洞所以今天台灣民眾黨提出了補破網第一個最重要就針對環境評估環境影響評估法第五條提出明確的修正案我們增訂在第五條增訂第三項"},{"start":2270.307,"end":2287.122,"text":"以後要做環評的包括除了原來的國家公園我們增列了國家風景區或者是脆弱敏感區域另外基於山坡替被破壞得非常嚴重所以我們將現行的限縮之前規定"},{"start":2288.503,"end":2307.629,"text":"裝置容量2萬千瓦以上或者設置累計設施的面積15公頃以上我們把它限收為1萬千瓦或者是5公頃以上就必須要環評另外我們要求設置在水面型的太陽能關電系統如果是超過"},{"start":2309.119,"end":2327.547,"text":"裝置容量超過1萬千瓦以上或者它累積的設置面積在5公頃以上都要環評另外設置或者是累積設置裝置的容量超過2萬千瓦以上都必須或者是整個面積高達10公頃以上都必須要經過環評"},{"start":2329.528,"end":2349.108,"text":"台灣民眾黨支持綠電的發展也希望整個光電的這個產業可以非常健全的發展包括光電的業者跟協會前幾天也特別拜訪了各個黨 朝野的黨團都來拜訪了我們也明確的表達只要經過不要再傷害我們的"},{"start":2350.641,"end":2365.796,"text":"環境能夠永續發展我們是會支持的所以我們現在提出了所謂的光電釋法也就是環評的一加三我們希望今天環境部能夠趕快補破網也希望光電業者能夠針對以前對環境的破壞趕快作出修正 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員那請問接下來哪一個黨團的委員要先發言"},{"start":2375.632,"end":2390.923,"text":"中國國民黨黨團跟民主進步黨黨團誰要先發言那先請民主進步黨黨團的陳佩玉委員好 謝謝主席三分鐘嘛好 我簡單的說今天我們看了這個修法其實有幾個問題想要請教提案的黨團第一個"},{"start":2391.443,"end":2405.42,"text":"其實原本相關的法規是規範在執法的層次但是我猜想可能民眾黨黨團認為在執法的層次太低沒有辦法完整的規範甚至沒有辦法全面的規範如果你們擔心的是完整跟全面的規範其實我們要問另外一個問題"},{"start":2407.262,"end":2426.975,"text":"目前所有要做還品的並不是只有光電這件事情有非常多的開發大型中型小型開發如果它在相關的法規它需要還品它就會做還品但是這一次你們特別把光電拉上來我們要提的是這有點不合體力而且也稍顯突兀它有可能掛意漏腕所以這邊我們想要誠懇的拜託民眾黨黨團是不是可以回到執法的層次"},{"start":2432.259,"end":2450.26,"text":"因為確實在執法層次相關部會在相關執法修法之後都還是要送立法院備查各位委員辦公室如果對相關執法有疑義甚至我們也想要邀請主席有沒有後續召開公聽會或者是請他們定期到各委員辦公室去報告我覺得這也才是最重要的"},{"start":2450.66,"end":2456.023,"text":"另外剛剛張祺凱委員有談到關於環團對這件事情的考慮我們手上其實也有非常多環團也有給我們相關建議而且這些環團都是長期以來在台灣能源轉型的過程當中不斷跟很多民意代表然後也跟相關部會在開會的時候在討論重要的這些民間環保團體"},{"start":2471.051,"end":2478.776,"text":"包含這一次地球公民基金會發了一個聲明台灣食物保育協會、主婦聯盟環境保護基金會、綠色公民行動聯盟、台灣氣候行動網絡研究中心、台灣環境規劃協會的聯合聲明都一再的提醒我們說確實在能源轉型的路上不同新的綠能的開發在相關的法規確實都還需要討論但是拉到母法確實是一個不適合的做法"},{"start":2496.427,"end":2519.586,"text":"另外拉到母法它有一個困境就是它的彈性會小很多後續修法是不是每一次都要去動到母法而他們更在意的事情我也想要跟張祺凱文分享他們更在意的是整體環境社會跟土地使用的衝突這可能是過去這十幾年台灣在綠能轉型上遇到的困境包含傳統的環評我們在意的是土地"},{"start":2520.166,"end":2544.051,"text":"空氣 土地的部分空氣的部分 廢棄物的部分跟水的污染這是傳統環評可以處理的項目但是以今天您所提的光電的部分它確實在相關項目所造成的分歧跟歧異沒有這麼大但是可能面臨的衝擊是一 改變了地景跟地表的樣貌還有就是在不同族群之間對於土地利用的看法還有就是造成會不會排擠其他產業的發展"},{"start":2545.291,"end":2567.108,"text":"這可能是所有環境保護團體更在意的事實也可能是他們更希望立法院支持加強監督相關行政機關不管是在修辭法或是開相關公聽會必須要對相關族群相關關係人必須有所交代的甚至是相關生態的部分這些其實都不在傳統的環評項目可是如果我們硬要把光電部分拉進來它確實就會導致環評的會議可能會浪費很多時間在討論不是傳統環評要討論的事情當然我非常非常非常認同"},{"start":2574.834,"end":2589.464,"text":"剛剛民眾黨已經先說了其實大家都支持綠電也支持能源轉型但是在面對一個新的科技新的產業發展的路上確實有很多法規範都需要調整而且也需要大家更細緻的討論而且我要再次拜託 誠懇的拜託"},{"start":2591.025,"end":2608.035,"text":"我認為這一次不是只有環團發生其實有一個非常重要的角色我要拜託大家一起想一想大家傳統提到綠電就會想到所謂半導體產業但是很多人可能會認為半導體跟我沒有關係我想要提出另外一個事情其實RE100這個事情非常的重要那我們來看"},{"start":2609.176,"end":2632.623,"text":"在台灣有多少企業他們必須他們已經公開自行承諾他們是所謂R1-100的企業包含大家日常所在用的手機三大電信都已經也承諾他們要在2030、2040、2050不同的年份要百分之百使用綠電這些國內的企業 國內的廠商他們非常非常需要綠電而在綠電能源轉型的路上台灣政府跟民間廠商"},{"start":2633.843,"end":2652.579,"text":"努力我們如何讓這些企業可以提早達成甚至可以鼓勵更多的企業加入RE100我認為這是台灣在能源轉型我們大家一起承擔跟面對的難題那包含大家所認識的Apple跟Google也都在這個行列之中所以我真的要拜託大家如果拉入母法來修法失去了這個彈性那我們不如轉個頭來"},{"start":2656.042,"end":2680.896,"text":"去共同更認真的監督行政機關甚至邀請更多不同角度不同關心不同環境議題甚至是在不同區域的族群一起來關心能源轉型如何在執法裡面把相關該做的事情做得更好以上先簡單說到這邊謝謝主席好 謝謝民進黨黨團的代表請問中國國民黨黨團要有哪一位委員代表先發言"},{"start":2685.115,"end":2705.978,"text":"請羅志強羅委員本席是支持台灣民眾黨的提案其實剛剛聽了陳培育委員的發言我也必須很沉痛的說民進黨以前的創黨理念叫做清廉 勤政 愛鄉土現在是亂弄光電愛挖土 亂挖土"},{"start":2706.946,"end":2724.549,"text":"搞到說整座山被挖了嘉義我們齊凱兄的故鄉光電吹翻造成的污染到現在也沒解決然後所有的你看他的手伸到無邊無際我先講一件根本的事情不是反對綠電反對民進黨這種亂挖土式的綠電設置太陽能光電的那個發電系統要一"},{"start":2733.188,"end":2757.343,"text":"第五條第八條實施環境影響評估沒有不准在這條文裡面的規範是實施環境影響評估那我想請問國家公園國家風景區跟脆弱敏感區域你蓋光墊我們有個更嚴謹的方式要你實施環境影響評估不對嗎不就符合你們愛鄉土的理念然後野生動物保護區野生動物重要棲息環境"},{"start":2758.291,"end":2786.939,"text":"然後台灣沿海地區自然環境保護核定公告之自然保護區特定農業區的農業用地點點點方方面面框框架架什麼叫不合體力啊是你們亂挖土挖到不成體統所以今天也只能用我們今天勞了我們台灣的土地勞了我們台灣的環境的這個心情今天台灣民眾黨來修這個有關於環評法的一個相關的修正案所以本席表示贊同 謝謝"},{"start":2789.676,"end":2801.544,"text":"好 謝謝中國國民黨黨團的代表在第二輪發言以前我們要不要讓行政機關表達意見還是各個黨團希望直接進行第二輪的發言就直接第二輪是不是如果大家覺得要直接第二輪的第二輪不好意思 不是我不給你們發言有委員提案說就請你們等一下如果有機會看什麼時候再請你們發言"},{"start":2820.117,"end":2833.402,"text":"直接第二輪的發言是那就先請陳昭志委員其實長期存在的問題一直到丹納斯颱風大概把這個噩夢直接打開讓每個人看到了"},{"start":2835.082,"end":2854.196,"text":"摧毀了離岸型光電浮台還有雲豹能源旗下子公司有心能源的光電暗場整個都摧毀了重點是經濟部宣稱這個是試驗性計畫但是也解釋不清楚為什麼號稱可以抗17級風浪的光電浮台會在10級的中台下從屏東一路飄到澎湖"},{"start":2856.517,"end":2862.74,"text":"所以我的重點說因為大家越來越注重到這也看到了也見證了這些事情光電板的這個管理急需要完整的這個通盤檢討我們也意識到這個很缺乏的部分就是那個風險預防機制長年失靈這個光電開發而且還正在蠶食精吞台灣美麗的這個土地"},{"start":2877.848,"end":2901.162,"text":"那執政黨是失責的一方面當然大家走綠電這個是二次一致的目標一方面大力鼓吹開發光電廠但又疏於全盤式的這個檢視光電廠的設置區等於變成台灣是滿山遍野的開發那當然包括一些很敏感的地區我們這次也有提案來要做一些這個列到不管是列到母法或是一些修正的部分那我覺得台灣的光電廠我必須說"},{"start":2906.277,"end":2923.933,"text":"已經走向很遺憾走向以足利為導向的發展模式那政府要做的這個責任防災計畫跟環境責任是完全疏忽了那這些光電廠標案就被視為某些投資商品"},{"start":2924.914,"end":2945.182,"text":"完全我們就看到資金操作跟報酬的回收這個對我們台灣的農地林地景觀水資源等等都是非常大的傷害當然能源政策不足是一件事情所以今天我們覺得如果不把它提升到母法的話很多的認定標準"},{"start":2946.602,"end":2951.485,"text":"很多認定標準不會因為這個會因為行政團隊 改善團隊一直變動所以我們希望能夠把它放到這個母法這個層次來才能夠繼續這個一方面讓該綠電往這個方向繼續走但是也要保護我們的國土謝謝謝謝那個陳昭之委員那接下來請民主進步黨黨團的鍾嘉斌委員謝謝"},{"start":2975.425,"end":2997.219,"text":"環境要保護產業才能永續發展這是台灣社會經過幾十年的慘痛教訓形成的非常強大的共識我想不分朝野各政黨各種的環境團體跟產業代表都是接受也堅定的支持這樣的原則那剛剛有點遺憾聽到國民黨團的代表說到說"},{"start":2998.573,"end":3013.592,"text":"似乎我們在立法體力上應該要嚴格要趕快的來推動甚至來支持台灣民眾黨的修法我這邊給大家分享一下從去年的3月8號到去年的11月22號"},{"start":3015.274,"end":3031.584,"text":"國民黨黨團的委員一共提出了五個關於環境影響評估法的修法包括了3月8號的第八條之一第九第十二條3月15號第六條3月29號第六條7月5號甚至王玉敏如現一"},{"start":3034.487,"end":3047.381,"text":"嚴寬恆他們提出的就是目前我們手上的第5條還有環境影響評估第23條在11月22號連在場的林倩琦委員你在今年的10月28號都有提出關於第3條的修正草案"},{"start":3048.22,"end":3073.441,"text":"那請問這些國民黨團的草案現在在哪裡通通在委員會連審查都還沒開始一讀會之後交互委員會審查如果國民黨黨團那麼重視環境影響評估甚至包括重視本條文第五條包括林倩琪委員您的第三條都沒有在內政委員會進行討論對不起 環境影響評估法在未還委員會"},{"start":3075.402,"end":3099.702,"text":"所以呢在這種情況之下我們對於國民黨團的朋友說你們也非常重視民眾黨團的提案多重視這一個目前的禁負惡毒條文是在10月29號交付惡毒的民眾黨團你知道嗎在你們提出這個禁負惡毒之前在國民黨支持禁負惡毒之前已經有7個條文國民黨提的放在委員會待審"},{"start":3101.415,"end":3123.571,"text":"為什麼要經負二讀 在場的主席很清楚從去年一直以來 本屆開始 國眾的合作就是透過經負二讀 跳過委員會的審查不管這個條文的內容 提案的多麼義正直言畢竟立法牽動的是全社會全民 應該到委員會裡面充分表達意見"},{"start":3125.357,"end":3147.352,"text":"為什麼要直接近乎二讀呢 為什麼要跳過委員會的審查呢為什麼將國民黨自己另外七個提案放在委員會不審要來支持民眾黨的這一個近乎二讀呢剛剛我們的培餘書記長講了 台灣的反團也發聲了他說要強化監督光電設置 勿讓修法淪為政治工坊"},{"start":3148.492,"end":3166.818,"text":"環團也看出來了這是政治攻防啊金沃爾圖什麼結果金沃爾圖就是說這些有爭議的條文社會不完全了解沒有辦法充分討論然後呢就會再蹦出一個最高機密版的修正動議再修正動議當我現在在說修正動議再修正動議社會真的搞不清楚"},{"start":3167.478,"end":3189.209,"text":"如果目前的條文進入二讀 透過協商後 透過韓院長在主持一個朝野協商之後交到院會去進行二三讀的時候會出 會再蹦出一個修正動議 再蹦出一個再修正動議然後呢 把大家踏伐的 覺得很有爭議的條文突然180度的大轉彎 就像主席之前常常做的這種事情一樣"},{"start":3190.109,"end":3204.417,"text":"那這時候大家又面臨到這個黑箱立法為什麼會跑出那樣的再生不正動議那再生不正動議的基礎何在反團的意見在哪裡產業的意見在哪裡行政機關的意見在哪裡完全的跳過"},{"start":3205.658,"end":3231.406,"text":"這才是我們覺得今天這樣的草野協商 黨團協商我們覺得很遺憾的放著國民黨黨團七個糾正條文法案在委員會不審查來支持民眾黨一個禁錮惡毒今天協商之外我們幾乎在期待著韓院長主持一次之後就可能在院會裡面直接用黑箱立法的方式突然之間拿出來要求表決"},{"start":3232.526,"end":3242.834,"text":"到時候誰來面對 誰來應對所以我在這才誠懇的希望主席不要再重套覆轍讓外界指責國中兩黨黑箱修法"},{"start":3245.086,"end":3269.691,"text":"好 謝謝鍾嘉賓委員因為剛剛鍾嘉賓委員有點名主席 槌尋一些事項所以我把一些程序上面的事項先跟各位委員進行程序性的報告第一個這一次禁負二讀交付黨團協商當初在院會處理的時候各個黨團都沒有異議這是第一點在程序上我要跟大家做報告的在院會"},{"start":3271.111,"end":3285.858,"text":"當初進夫二讀的時候沒有任何一個黨團來提出異議第二個在院會之前針對原來提出來的條文提出修正動議跟再修正動議這是本院有效的議事規則"},{"start":3287.279,"end":3310.789,"text":"本來就應該處理的程序過去民主進步黨黨團在院會之前也常常提出修正動議再修正動議那也都是按照議事規則我們就一切按照議事規則走那因此剛剛所講的所謂的黑箱作業跟黑箱立法我老實說我個人是不知道就所何止啦"},{"start":3312.109,"end":3335.79,"text":"第三個說反對在野黨的意見直接禁夫惡毒強行通過立法的我印象倒是蠻深刻當初公民投票法在2019年5月的時候民主進步黨就是用這樣子的方式把公投法用鎖回鳥籠我想在立法院公報裡面的記載相當的清楚"},{"start":3336.611,"end":3360.656,"text":"但是今天我們還是就條文論條文回到條文本身在委員會上面或者是說在現在協商的現場再去進行這些所謂政治上面的攻防或是政治上面的攻擊到底是誰在進行攻擊我相信關心的朋友們大家也其實都可以看得出來"},{"start":3361.876,"end":3373.086,"text":"最後一點是說就台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我們光電的業者七大光電業者就我所知有到台灣民眾黨黨團來表達他們的訴求"},{"start":3376.38,"end":3402.894,"text":"那環保團體當然環保團體有一連有一長串的環保團體他也有到我們黨團來表達訴求那我們黨團就是開大門走大路有人有意見要來表達他們的看法那我們都是接待也都好好的聆聽那當然兩邊的團體各自各有主張那兩邊的考慮"},{"start":3403.894,"end":3427.882,"text":"我想各個黨團應該都有聽到接下來本來就是立法院在針對不同的訴求不同的利害衝突的考慮要去進行一個權衡做出立法的工作我想說針對程序性的事項先做以上的說明接下來不曉得中國國民黨黨團是要由哪位來我們請陳委員"},{"start":3430.943,"end":3450.524,"text":"謝謝主席我在這邊也要跟主席還有這麼多委員講述一下對於沒有每天在胃黃委員會的委員希望不要隨便臆測胃黃委員會發生了什麼事情因為我跟陳昭之委員幾乎每天七點就到胃黃委員會為什麼剛講的提案還沒有審"},{"start":3451.525,"end":3474.013,"text":"是因為我們考量環境部環境部的官員一直告訴我們說他們會修執法所以叫我們緩一緩我們自己每一個人在委員會提案了多少次我本人就提案兩次的加研並且質詢至少超過十次以上但是環境部始終來拜託我們要給一點時間研擬來加研"},{"start":3476.914,"end":3488.748,"text":"所以不了解未還委員會在做什麼事情的人不用隨便的臆測未還委員會發生了什麼事情那為什麼剛剛聽到民進黨黨團打臉環境部這麼明顯是因為最近就在我們未還委員會連經濟部都打臉了環境部"},{"start":3496.397,"end":3524.951,"text":"我們從風災開始的時候我們就不斷的質詢環境部跟經濟部唱賀片片有序號片片找的回來這件事情到底是不是屬實當時8月的時候環境部說他們可以把這些光電板分類提早退休的還有找不回來的以及他本來就應該要除役的消失的 碎掉的之後會照一個序號列出來"},{"start":3526.071,"end":3545.84,"text":"8月說要給我們 延到9月中9月又說10月最後11月是直接經濟部一紙公文經濟部也不問環境部了經濟部直接一紙公文給我說量體真的太大了所以這個偏偏有序號最後提供序號清單這件事情是不可行的"},{"start":3547.273,"end":3567.037,"text":"從這個故事你就知道為什麼我們希望把它提升到母法為什麼我們覺得這件事刻不容緩因為環境部跟經濟部可以為了他們自己製作的圖卡偏偏有序號做不到這件事就在我們未還委員會這樣支支吾吾的三個多月都講不出原因所以剛剛很多委員講得很好我們在很多離奇的地方發現光電板"},{"start":3577.679,"end":3597.775,"text":"開發綠能很棒我們現在也發現問題了所以我們現在就來解決這個問題最近這幾天也有很多全台灣的環境團體來拜訪我包括我本人都已經跟著他們去很多地方看過你會覺得極度破壞生態的地方居然鋪著光電板居然無法可管"},{"start":3600.294,"end":3614.043,"text":"雖然大家都反應 環境部說要廣納意見可是這個時間真的是拖延的非常太久了反應要加嚴 限制的做法目前沒有採納所以我想民眾黨之所以才會有今天這個母法的修正 謝謝好 謝謝現在各個黨團都發表了兩輪的看法那不曉得我們的主管機關是不是有什麼話想說"},{"start":3625.65,"end":3653.464,"text":"環境部希望發言嗎因為之前在委員會質詢的時候我相信彭部長在詢答的過程當中我們該給他的提醒都提醒了所謂該給他的提醒我想包括陳委員在內包括陳昭志委員在內很多未完委員會的委員大家都很認真在質詢這件事情當然關心有關於光電板"},{"start":3654.184,"end":3673.952,"text":"我們在支持綠能的同時不希望它破壞我們的好山好水搞到台灣山也光電板海也光電板到處都是光電板然後我們在外防委員會質詢彭部長的時候那部長也提醒過彭部長說你們之前完全"},{"start":3675.1,"end":3689.011,"text":"免還品之前是完全免還品完全免還品他上任以後採用執法的方式去做了一些規範那但是過去再半年多發展出來的經驗發現當初授權給環境部讓環境部去訂執法那那個執法問題很多"},{"start":3696.716,"end":3724.728,"text":"造成的例子我就不要再一一列舉了因為這畢竟是黨團的協商啦那才會走到今天這樣子必須要透過修法來處理的狀況那我想這個前期的背景順著剛剛陳委員所說明的那也讓大家能夠了解一下那因為剛剛環境部的次長希望發言我應該沒有誤會吧是好那我們現在就先有請環境部"},{"start":3725.779,"end":3748.145,"text":"好 謝謝總召 謝謝我們各黨團的意見做幾點說明 第一點就是民國84年環評認定標準公告以來到目前30年總共修了15次 平均兩年一次 這第一點第二點就是目前民眾黨團所提出來的要把它修在母法的條文"},{"start":3749.205,"end":3777.013,"text":"事實上大部分是跟我們今年1月所公告的認定標準大部分的條文是跟我們公告認定標準不一樣大部分是一樣主要不一樣的地方就是在這個第一款的地方加上國家風景區跟脆弱敏感區域那我要說明就是目前的法律裡面沒有所謂的脆弱敏感區域的這個定義目前的法規裡面沒有這個脆弱敏感"},{"start":3778.631,"end":3804.953,"text":"這個定義的第一個那第二個不同的地方是第九款的設置水面型的太陽光電的規模那這個我們現在啟動的認定標準的修法裡面我們會把它納進去我會把它納進去這是第二個不同的地方那第三個不同的地方我想是影響比較大的就是不管任何區域不管任何區域就是說在民眾黨的第十款裡面只要設置或累積"},{"start":3806.787,"end":3834.22,"text":"裝置容量在2萬千瓦以上或者是累積的面積在10公頃以上就要做環評我想這一點如果通過的話將來對於綠電的發展是非常不利的就是不管它在什麼區位2萬就是20M跟10公頃日本目前是4萬日本是4萬以上韓國是10萬以上才要做環評"},{"start":3835.32,"end":3860.461,"text":"所以我們比它的這個規模要小很多所以除了這三個不一樣的以外大部分是跟我們在今年1月所公告的認定標準的修正是大同小異的那第三點就是我們希望說因為這個認定標準比較技術性常常需要修法如果是放在母法裡面將來要修正的彈性恐怕就比較少"},{"start":3861.041,"end":3887.911,"text":"我剛剛提過過去30年平均兩年修正一次所以我們建議說可不可以回到這個執法回到環評認定標準這邊來修正那剛剛各位委員所指教到的比如說哪些的敏感區位像潮間帶說現在沒有環評等等的這個將來在我們草案公告以後透過研商的過程裡面我們都可以來採納各方的意見把它放進來"},{"start":3889.091,"end":3916.971,"text":"大家覺得說什麼樣的區位是敏感的設這個光電板是會有影響的那可以在這個修訂的各款裡面把它加進來所以我們希望說是不是能夠回到認定標準依照原來的第五條的授權有認定標準這邊來修訂那我們目前也已經啟動修法我們是請各部會在10月30號給我們意見我們目前也理了一個這個草案報到行政院那等行政院同意以後我們就會來預告以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":3921.84,"end":3948.512,"text":"剛剛環境部表達過看法在請經濟部的代表發言以前有個客觀的事實先請環境部說明一下從我們2016年開始推動有關於整個光電的政策到目前為止你剛剛所講的設置有關於必須要環評的認定標準環境部總共修訂了幾次"},{"start":3951.277,"end":3973.834,"text":"跟委員報告一開始因為是鼓勵綠電所以一開始就要求是在這個濕地重要濕地才要修才要送還品現在我問的不是內容我請教的是你修了幾次今年第二次就是因為太陽光電今年第二次今年指的是2025年嗎對就是1月的時候那第一次地是什麼時候98年"},{"start":3977.181,"end":3998.191,"text":"98年所以2016年以後到現在只修一次就是那個太陽光墊的部分所以我們從2016年到現在2025年過去9年的期間當中只修了一次因為整個認定標準總共有45項開發因為剛剛你提到時間剛剛你提到說環評法的修正是兩年就修一次"},{"start":4000.912,"end":4013.301,"text":"因為他有45項開發行為他兩年修一次光電的部分你們是九年修了一次這客觀的數字你要談時間就論時間這些客觀的資訊要讓關心這個議題的公民大家都了解"},{"start":4018.385,"end":4046.46,"text":"那要不然你拿香蕉比橘子那比較的基準是什麼也要講清楚嘛感覺好像是行政命令在法規作業程序上比較有彈性嘛那但實際上面的實踐好像也不是這個樣子嘛跟你剛剛所不斷的強調的是環評法兩年就修一次那要攸關這個給授權給你們行政命令搞到九年才修一次這客觀數字上面時間的事情總是要讓大家能夠理解嘛"},{"start":4047.298,"end":4057.214,"text":"好 我們接下來請經濟部的代表好 主席 主委委員 大家午安那在這邊有幾點跟各位說明"},{"start":4058.035,"end":4085.721,"text":"那今年我也去參加APEC的能源部長會議那亞洲世界各國APEC的國家都認為綠電是一個非常重要的也期待說在未來在再生能源特別是綠電的這個部分的占比能大幅的提升因為占比若不能大幅的提升隨著我們的民眾用電的需求的情況之下那未來就會仰賴傳統的這個能源"},{"start":4088.519,"end":4100.697,"text":"而世界各國也把太陽能光電都視為低強度的開發行為對於地理環境跟我們比較相近的亞洲鄰近的國家"},{"start":4102.492,"end":4124.444,"text":"光電環評的標準也是採用一定規模以上比如說在日本就是40MW 韓國就是100MW對於海島型的國家 甚至是像新加坡新加坡也只有個案的認定光電的發展對我們國家非常的需要"},{"start":4126.277,"end":4153.924,"text":"我們也是一個出口導向的國家我們的產業界也需要綠能的部分來達成它的R100的需求而若是沒有辦法足夠的綠能或是綠能的發展遲延而影響到它的產業的發展的過程裡面對於出口訂單的影響或是產線轉移的部分產業界也表示一定的擔憂"},{"start":4155.595,"end":4167.716,"text":"那第二點的部分是剛剛聆聽主委委員的指教意見有很多在在生能源的發展的過程裡面有一些的疑慮或是認為有違法的地方"},{"start":4168.857,"end":4195.069,"text":"那事實上這個有各該的作用法在現行就可以去管理比如說在山坡地濫墾濫伐違法的行為在山坡地的水路保持法裡面就可以去進行規範至於廢棄物的部分在廢棄物清理法裡面就可以有相關的這個規範那第三大點跟主席跟諸委員報告的是我們在"},{"start":4196.201,"end":4211.069,"text":"淨零的過程裡面我們的能源部門有定期的跟社會去進行的溝通那環境影響評估認定標準及細項事實上是每年都有依照這個環境部"},{"start":4212.199,"end":4231.527,"text":"召集相關的這個利害關係人在環境部依照現行的母法及執法的規定的範圍內來去進行相關的討論那也有很多的產業跟團體認為說在現行的這個討論的機制之下他比現在"},{"start":4233.598,"end":4243.845,"text":"有某些黨團提出來要修法直接拿到母法裡面來討論他們認為這個部分更能與時俱進的去兼顧他們的需求"},{"start":4246.311,"end":4269.88,"text":"最後一點跟大家報告的事情是我們對於光電的發展的部分近幾年來特別是在今年有一些的策進的作為首先就違法的一個樣態我們跟高檢署有一個平台我們也不希望有違法業者來對於我們的正常的產業發展會有影響"},{"start":4271.941,"end":4297.816,"text":"這是第一個 第二個部分在今年年初環境部也公告了比如說光電在山坡地的發展他在20M或是15公頃以上應該來辦理環評那這個部分經濟部跟相關的這個再生能源特別是光電的這個業者的話我們絕對會依照現行的規定那我們也期待說在"},{"start":4299.276,"end":4310.036,"text":"環境部目前的執法的討論的這個架構之下我們來討論未來在光電上面在環境的把關上面如何來強化以上"},{"start":4313.633,"end":4337.924,"text":"謝謝經濟部的代表我想各個黨團針對這個環評法相關要不要放在法律還是放在行政命令繼續授權給環境部大家都表達了看法第一個案子我看是沒有辦法有什麼共識因為連基本上面的態度都不太一樣我們要詢問行政局 因為他答覆了我們可以追問"},{"start":4339.315,"end":4359.861,"text":"先等我一下就是我現在還是會徵詢各個黨團的意見就是說我們現在因為這個是黨團協商那我們要針對第一案行政部門所提出來的問題剛表達的意見剛剛民主進步黨黨團鍾嘉斌委員說他想要詢問行政部門的"},{"start":4361.587,"end":4388.188,"text":"有一些問題要問他們那我們現在是不是要開放各個黨團開始針對行政部門進行詢問的程序我先請教各個黨團因為民進黨希望能夠開放現在來詢問行政部門一些具體問題那其他的黨團大家是不是覺得要我們接下來的時間跟程序要往這個軸線上面持續的進行"},{"start":4401.477,"end":4403.681,"text":"那其他的黨團的代表呢"},{"start":4406.809,"end":4431.123,"text":"可以嗎那這樣子我們就再開放一輪發言那在發言的過程當中如果有一些事情要催詢行政部門的話那也就請在發言的時間當中做催詢那接下來要哪一個黨團先那既然中委員好像他希望先那個張熙凱委員是不是先讓中委員那我們就先請中委員"},{"start":4432.721,"end":4447.013,"text":"環境部因為我們現在環評法第五條它是規範的是實施環境影響評估的類別這是目前的現行法規它一共在第一項列了11款"},{"start":4449.383,"end":4465.804,"text":"那另外你們剛剛提到的執法是所謂的開發行為應實施反響評估細目及範圍認定標準你說這是執法這個目前有在修訂後重新公告徵求各界意見是不是這樣子"},{"start":4467.239,"end":4483.644,"text":"跟委員報告 簡單講就好因為我們時間有限最近的意思就是今年1月然後我們現在已經啟動了就是公告徵詢 要再修的那個部分現在報行政院同意後就可以預告那我請教一下在你們目前現在在公告在修訂公告的內容當中你們在這個29條第7"},{"start":4487.825,"end":4509.574,"text":"款的第七目有寫到三坡地當中裝置容量兩萬千瓦或者是設置面積15公頃以上對不對那麼像這樣的兩萬千瓦跟15公頃它為什麼之前沒有放在第五條的上位的母法當中是否說你們這些幾萬千瓦幾公頃是屬於會經常隨著滾動去調整 是不是這樣子是"},{"start":4513.956,"end":4529.119,"text":"好 那我們來看一下其實我本來是想請主席請我們會務單位來看一下國民黨團也就是在去年的7月5號由盧憲毅委員在內所提案的同樣的條文第5條"},{"start":4530.728,"end":4555.319,"text":"第五條裡面呢他跟現在的母法當中他的確也沒有去動到幾公頃幾萬千瓦因為顯然的這樣國民黨的他的修正條文的他也是似乎認同執法去規定這些幾萬公頃幾萬千瓦好但是呢他做了什麼修訂我們來看一下這個當中呢我們看到了他動了第幾款他動了第十款"},{"start":4556.804,"end":4571.721,"text":"那麼它本來呢第十款是核能及其他能源之開發及放射性核廢料儲存或處理場所之興建包含兩個一個是核能的開發一個是核廢料的存放那結果呢"},{"start":4574.613,"end":4600.36,"text":"這個國民黨團的意見呢他把核電廠的開發那個拿掉了他移到第十二款說只有保留什麼放射性廢棄物儲存處的設施之興建這是國民黨做的一個修正第二個他們另加了第十二 第十一款在濕地 埤塘 滯洪池 水庫及餘溫等水域空間進行太陽光電發電系統之開發"},{"start":4602.808,"end":4623.601,"text":"對啊 這不就是我們原來大家在討論的這段時間我們對於所謂的水面型光電不是只限於民生用水庫還包含了國民黨提案當中有濕地 有皮塘 有滋洪池 有水庫 有餘溫這些地方的性質屬性都各有不同"},{"start":4624.361,"end":4649.87,"text":"未來分別在這些水面型的地方它的開發行為 光電的開發行為當然要請環境部就這些不同的水面型的光電設置的屬性分別予以規範它的裝置容量跟設置面積我想要請環境部就因為這個法案 這個法條呢沒有機會在未還委員會討論我知道兩位陳委員都是未還委員的成員但是主席不是但是主席說"},{"start":4651.19,"end":4670.46,"text":"之前有問過好像剛聽了有問過經濟部的意見有問過衛環部的意見我就很好奇目前包括第五條去年7月5號交互委員會的都沒有排審目前我們在看的民眾黨團提的這個10月29號近乎二讀也沒有在委員會經過排審"},{"start":4671.894,"end":4697.682,"text":"那麼如何知道行政部門對相關問題的意見呢還是一樣跟主席一樣喜歡問A答B今天主席委員會召委排的是A議題結果問官員B議題 我不清楚是不是請環境部就這兩個部分來做說明第一 所謂的在你們的執法也就是說所謂的認定標準當中關於面積跟瓦數這個是不是在認定標準裡面去定"},{"start":4698.522,"end":4714.311,"text":"第二 國民黨提的第五條它拿掉了核能電源的開發放進了各種類型的水域那這些水域因為屬性不同未來如果按照國民黨的一個架構未來在執法的認定標準是不是要分別就這些水"},{"start":4715.311,"end":4744.064,"text":"水塘 湿地 湿地是生态 皮塘是我们经济用的制洪池更是另外一种水利工程水库跟渔温大有不同是不是应该要分别设定不同的标准认定标准 以上谢谢 一样程序上在说明一样现在协商的主题是第一点由台湾民众党党团拟据环境影响评估法第五条条文修正草案"},{"start":4745.236,"end":4771.382,"text":"那剛剛鍾嘉賓委員不慣的在點名主席然後提到盧憲一委員的提案那盧憲一委員的提案並不在這一次協商的範圍當中那盧委員如果想要禁夫惡毒的話其實可以跟陳輝京委員一樣他們就其他的法律有禁夫惡毒那那個在第二案 第三案 第四案就會在協商的範圍當中"},{"start":4773.042,"end":4787.914,"text":"我為的是認定標準跟無法進行的關係我不是在討論盧先生的議案剛剛你在發言的時候我並沒有插嘴請你就尊重請你就尊重主席的發言你誤導我你誤會我的意思的時候我也沒有插你的嘴"},{"start":4788.975,"end":4804.863,"text":"所以請中委員尊重主席的議事主持我只是就程序性的事項讓大家能夠聽得清楚要不然大家會誤會現在是在協商台灣民眾黨黨團的進夫二讀盧憲一委員的條文並不在協商的範圍內那當然"},{"start":4806.764,"end":4822.641,"text":"各個黨團如果針對台灣民眾黨黨團的環境影響評估法第五條要在協商的會議上提出修正動議那我們也都是歡迎的你提出修正動議以後就會成為在協商的範圍當中好那現在民進黨黨團已經發言完了我們現在請台灣民眾黨黨團"},{"start":4828.686,"end":4847.532,"text":"剛剛環境部的次長提說民眾黨所提的修正案裡面你們沒有脆弱敏感區域這個脆弱敏感區域是國土規劃裡面常常用當的名詞甚至內政部的國土署都有明確的定義請你看一下它又分一級跟二級"},{"start":4848.772,"end":4869.946,"text":"一級的環境敏感區域一共有26項第一項就是水土保持區第二項是河川區域26項是優良的農地我特別提這個我是要提醒因為在一個月前經濟部曾經被我打臉就是經濟部次長今天在現場當初我特別問到"},{"start":4871.717,"end":4892.109,"text":"環評的問題你們講說只要是敏感的脆弱的國土這個環境敏感區你們都要納入環評我就拿了剛剛講的我練的這個國土署明確的規範一級裡面的26項其中的第21項就是水庫的蓄水區跟集水區"},{"start":4896.499,"end":4923.163,"text":"有嗎 現在行政部門提出來的案子裡面要還平的有把水庫的集水區跟蓄水區放進去嗎這是第一個 第二個今天非常讓人家覺得遺憾也是憤慨跟沉痛的民進黨這麼怕還平嗎對於光電發生這麼多的這個弊案跟亂象你們都眼睛都看不到嗎屏東來的鍾嘉斌先生 立委"},{"start":4924.867,"end":4948.052,"text":"上次風災的時候 屏東的海上的這個光電板才10級風 你們說是17級風結果飄到澎湖去 你沒有看到嗎台南跟嘉義那麼多的1電公升的案子魚沒有養 或者是魚死了而且魚都變貴了連消費者現在去買魚都變貴了"},{"start":4950.765,"end":4977.284,"text":"而且被犧牲的是誰善良的台灣的農民跟漁民被破壞的是我們國家的土地跟漁溫政府為了要推動漁電共生把我們台灣的漁溫將近一半都化為是可以推動漁電共生的甚至室內的漁電共生連最基層的最基礎的說明會都不用辦更不要講環評了"},{"start":4979.924,"end":4986.337,"text":"我們今天提出這個修正案我們只是要求補破王把本來已經實施這麼多年的"},{"start":4988.144,"end":5011.477,"text":"授權給環境部去訂的這個執法顯然是漏洞百出現在是大家應該共同攜手來合作包括我希望環境部以後出去是抬著頭挺著胸你們是真正保護到環境的所以我們要把你的認定標準從執法提升為母法而且剛剛市長你也講了大部分的內容是一樣的我們是把某部分做得比較明確的一個規範讓它實施的強度可以更強"},{"start":5014.238,"end":5037.93,"text":"今天我要鄭重的呼籲我希望經過今天的討論跟未來的修法之後光電業者跟政府在外面是抬頭頂胸的不要每次講到光電的時候烏煙瘴氣的每隔一兩個禮拜 兩三個禮拜就出現一個弊案從台南的小二甲 88槍一直到我剛剛講的每次颱風來就出現一堆的這個問題剛剛講 陳委員在講"},{"start":5041.769,"end":5061.794,"text":"你環境部跟經濟部跟他保證你每一片光電板你都是有序號的你不只是回收錢不夠你要拿我們人民的納稅錢去負責做回收結果你現在連序號都找不出來怎麼對得起人民所以希望今天透過大家的溝通完之後"},{"start":5062.662,"end":5082.788,"text":"我們讓光電它的汙名可以洗刷把美名要回來透過補破網讓我們的綠電光電的發展是可以平順的整個產業是可以很光榮的不要像現在為止你本身就有太多肉都沒有補結果弄到後來民進黨的立委一直當打手一直在護衛問題會越來越嚴重 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱委員那中國國民黨現在請翁翁喬林委員發言"},{"start":5092.475,"end":5119.853,"text":"我首先要講的就是只要是對環境保護有利的法案就要加速的推動加速的進行剛剛中央兵委員有點名我們國民黨有些委員他們也有提出環境影響評估的修法但是畢竟中央兵委員就是不是在衛環委員會裡面他們不知道說是其實這些委員的提案的法條基本上跟今天所討論的法條是不一樣的"},{"start":5122.455,"end":5145.816,"text":"有些性質不同的法案基本上是不會納進來一起討論的所以講那樣子的話基本上是沒有意義的那再回過頭來我們來講就是說今天看起來這個民進黨就會支持我們在發展光電綠電的同時要重視環保嗎事實上也不是啊本席所提的國家公園法的法案不是就被你們附議嗎"},{"start":5146.957,"end":5171.374,"text":"所以這次也沒有辦法納在法案裡面一起討論我當時也是主張國家公園法是禁止鋪設光電板的所以我們想講的就是說其實今天這個環境影響評估法的討論基本上是有意義的即便是說可能就是主要是以民眾黨黨團的版本為主但是只要是對的法案我想應該是不分朝野委員"},{"start":5172.635,"end":5191.187,"text":"朝野委員都應該要鼓勵要加速的去支持還有就是說我們過去我們常講就是說在數位發展的過程當中村村有寬平可是現在我們看到在發展綠電的過程當中我們現在是山山水水有光電板"},{"start":5192.428,"end":5218.559,"text":"這不是大家所樂見的為什麼因為它的確是影響到整個的環境保護所以做環境影響評估我們要將環境影響評估做得更嚴格一些能夠為我們的環境保護來把關我覺得這個方向是對的現在我們所看到的民眾黨黨團所提出的第五條第三項的修正"},{"start":5219.319,"end":5239.31,"text":"裡面的很多的內容我基本上我想我們國民黨黨團這裡很多的方向基本上是支持的那麼更何況我們看到現在行政部門所提出來的認定標準每兩年才修一次平均每兩年才修一次這速度也未免太慢了吧"},{"start":5240.731,"end":5254.238,"text":"有這麼多的光電板鋪設的爭議發生就應該要非常快速的滾動式檢討如果你們今天能夠快速的滾動式的檢討我想也不至於說非得一定要來修法但是因為我們就先看到行政機關"},{"start":5256.038,"end":5280.145,"text":"就是你們擁有制定行政命令的權利但是卻不會好好的去使用好好的配合或是觀察我們現在所看到這些弊案去做快速的修正反而是一直擺爛放在那裡然後很慢的也不去做修正所以我們透過法律趕快把它這個把這個漏洞"},{"start":5280.945,"end":5288.889,"text":"填補起來我覺得這個方向是正確的所以今天我們討論這個環境影響評估第五條的修正案本席在這邊是全力支持好 謝謝我們各個黨團進行了三輪的發言第一個案子顯然沒有辦法有共識接下來我們進入協商主席第二個發展觀光條例第十一條條文什麼"},{"start":5310.24,"end":5315.846,"text":"行政部門就簡要回答吧OK是 第一個鍾嘉斌委員提到的"},{"start":5317.066,"end":5340.953,"text":"在母法的第5條它是規範應該要做環評的開發行為的類型所以原來是有10款第11款是其他所以我們根據這個其他已經公告目前總共是45項的開發行為至於每一項開發行為依照它的不同的區位有不同的開發面積跟規模那個是定在認定標準裡面去定"},{"start":5342.234,"end":5355.429,"text":"那第二個就剛提到說每兩年就剩一次其實這個是滾動檢討剛提到今年1月的時候我們才修認定標準把很多的這個現在民眾黨提出來的那一些光電要做環評的放進來"},{"start":5356.77,"end":5378.784,"text":"現在大家覺得說水庫型的水面型的有問題所以我們現在也啟動了這個修法所以這個是一個滾動的檢討我剛講的平均兩年是說這45項開發行為如果有人建議要修正我們就會啟動這個修正的這個所以目前要再修正的已經送到行政院行政院同意以後就會預告這樣的一個草案"},{"start":5385.818,"end":5406.789,"text":"所以其他的 其他剛剛提到的譬如說脆弱敏感區的這個因為這個最主要是在國土署那邊 今天國土署沒有來應該要問他就是說 如果是解脆弱敏感區域的話將來開發單位要去詢問他是不是位在脆弱敏感區域能不能查詢得到"},{"start":5407.549,"end":5420.215,"text":"因為這個必須要把範圍畫得很清楚讓我看到有沒有在裡面如果有在裡面那就OK如果沒在裡面的話那脆弱族群這個名字我們是需要再查證以上 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝行政機關的回覆其實我老實講你剛剛講的內容只是把你剛剛講的再重新講一次而已不過沒有關係啦我還是尊重也給你表達意見的機會"},{"start":5435.083,"end":5462.286,"text":"那第二個呢 我們那個發展觀光條例第11條條文的修正草案那不曉得哪一個黨團要先發言有哪一個黨團要先發言嗎不是 我尊重大家的意見啦有人想要先講嗎好 那個陳委員他先舉手了那我們就先讓陳委員發言"},{"start":5464.414,"end":5486.007,"text":"我們現在來看這個發展觀光條例這些國家級的風景區就是台灣的觀光門面獨一無二的自然地景還有人文風貌他們就是我們的觀光命脈現在竟然都一直說到要做觀光國家隊我不太懂為什麼要在這些地方鋪光電板最嚴重的等一下張奇懷維還在"},{"start":5488.393,"end":5515.491,"text":"他可以補充一下最嚴重的是我們有曾經到那邊去造訪我是另外這些環團帶著我去看雲嘉南的濱海國家風景區根本很多地方都被鋪設的亂七八糟我們認為這已經不叫做國家級風景區乾脆叫做光電示範區還比較名符其實所以我們去想像觀光是一個體驗的經濟當你千里迢迢的來到日月潭"},{"start":5518.853,"end":5534.119,"text":"看到的卻是一片一片在水面上飄的光電板或是在阿里山看雲海可是先看到一片光電海是情何以堪我們目前看到這些景象對我們而言都是一個不可回復的視覺衝擊"},{"start":5536.4,"end":5559.56,"text":"是對於生態浩劫的直接摧毀不只是美感它是影響我們的觀光價值扼殺了在地的一個產業鏈所以我們的法案是明定國家級風景特定區不得設置大規模的太陽光電系統如果各位對這個修正草案有疑慮的話請去網路上查東"},{"start":5561.281,"end":5579.249,"text":"石布袋北門將軍七鼓這整個範圍是不是很多環團拍照光電板的新聞光電板的照片這個畫面的衝擊是我們不能想像的也是不想留給我們下一代子孫的謝謝主席謝謝陳委員請問哪個黨團要接著表示意見"},{"start":5587.441,"end":5612.285,"text":"好 那個先請民主進步黨的陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席非常謝謝剛剛陳金輝委員就舉例是雲嘉南風景區你剛剛有說到我覺得幾個問題需要釐清我們都認同發展國家觀光用觀光軟實力吸引不同國家的人來到台灣認識台灣這絕對是台灣未來要走的一條路"},{"start":5612.845,"end":5631.996,"text":"尤其對於很多年輕人來說回鄉投入觀光投入地方創生投入文化跟教育的重新新世代的理解確實也是國家發展重要方向但是如果回到所謂的雲嘉南風景區我想要提醒大家雲嘉南風景區的畫社"},{"start":5633.188,"end":5647.702,"text":"大 有多大87802公頃請問一下大家雲嘉南風景區這麼大全部都是所謂的地質敏感區嗎都是不能有相關綠電或者是不同產業的進駐嗎我覺得這個問題都還值得討論"},{"start":5654.469,"end":5669.659,"text":"我當然認同在觀光地區如果看到過大面積的開發確實會影響視覺所以我看到不同委員的版本就是剛剛委員會所發下來的民眾黨黨團的寫法就直接寫"},{"start":5670.86,"end":5690.225,"text":"國家級風景特定區不得設置地面型太陽光電系統但經環境影響評估審查通過等等等等但是剛剛陳金輝委員您剛說您有版本你說的是大面積所以我真的不是很確定你們是深惡痛絕所有的綠電在國家級風景特定區還是你們認為"},{"start":5694.566,"end":5713.413,"text":"大範圍到底要大到多大是你們不能接受的其實在相關的版本裡面我們看得不是很清楚所以我要講的是當所有的土地不能被同一個角度來看待也就是並不是所有土地都具有敏感性所以如果我們要全面一概的禁止就只是您認為"},{"start":5714.713,"end":5739.681,"text":"有愛觀瞻或者是你覺得是不當開發或者是用保護環境的名義那我必須要說這些我們都很在意否則我們今天不會勇敢的坐在這裡跟各位面對面直球對決來協商談這件事情而且今天還是公開直播但我要講的是雲嘉南風景區他們所面臨的困境可能不是單一用環評的角度就可以解決"},{"start":5740.561,"end":5768.335,"text":"所以我也要拜託在野黨的委員當我們在談這件事情的時候會不會我們以為要解決問題但可能製造更多的問題例如說環團就提醒我們會不會變成另外室內餘電相關弊案的產生這都是我們在立法的時候所必須要顧及到的聲音另外我也想要回應剛陳金輝委員舉例日月談我要提醒日月談現在沒有光電板"},{"start":5768.755,"end":5791.789,"text":"我們在看很多案例的時候不是他有光電板他就是罪惡不是他有相關綠電開發他就是罪惡而且我要再說一次民進黨團始終支持有弊案該查就查該辦就辦這些問題已經講過很多次了我希望我們今天可以就法論法還有實務的操作面也非常的重要我剛剛已經再次強調以上謝謝"},{"start":5794.286,"end":5805.691,"text":"好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團的代表那最後我們請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表好 我想 葉次長您 次長我親眼見過您主持的環評會議"},{"start":5808.567,"end":5836.072,"text":"我連需要做環評的部分我都是看得非常汗顏明明在前幾天我們也行文環保團體告訴你們說你們在公告網站上開會前要有公告的資料那個資料的核心資料是缺乏的沒有一個第六章的核心資料是缺乏的而且人家有提出你們內部的檢舉者吹哨者提供我們的土地污染資料"},{"start":5837.253,"end":5848.159,"text":"我們三個立委出現在那個環民會議上告訴你們說今天這個資料要被重視要好好處理次長你直接告訴我你直接告訴我說以後再做行政訴訟"},{"start":5850.116,"end":5854.641,"text":"然後那天用17比0通過 我是說這個只有金正恩跟習近平的會議才會有17比0我親眼見到你處理需要環評的部分 您都尚且這樣處理後來證實崔少澤給的資料是正確的 確實土地有嚴重污染我想你也知道我指的是哪個案子"},{"start":5871.596,"end":5885.688,"text":"所以今天我想說最重要的重點說本來是依照這個實質環境影響評估的這個政策細項就算還不在母法裡本來任何能源政策的規範都應該在開發前要做一次完整的政策環評"},{"start":5887.677,"end":5898.604,"text":"那你們的細項你事實上也沒有按照這個去做事實上今年1月以前你都利用很寬鬆的這個開發新聞應實施這個環境評估的細項跟認定標準去規範即便看他們的濫砍樹林屁案的狀況你們還是用很寬鬆的標準去看而且今年1月你們是偷偷的修訂偷偷的修訂所以在這個情況之下我沒有辦法接受你們過去的這個做法我們認為只有"},{"start":5918.197,"end":5943.044,"text":"要必須很明定包括我們今天提出的那個國家公園特定農業區等而且要求到母法的未接在你們非母法在執法我已經見識過了我沒有辦法信任環境部根據執法自己去做因為這個事實後來被證明是事實的這個有違法的部分你們都當時你主持的時候那麼的篤定"},{"start":5945.322,"end":5952.33,"text":"你也不讓這個團團者發言我們三個立委在現場你也不讓我們發言"},{"start":5954.801,"end":5975.428,"text":"所以我們今天堅持說其實我們只是在彌補過去國家只會鼓勵光電的進行但是對於整個這個不管是防災的規劃或是這個環境責任完全付諸缺乳你們完全在配合經濟部的開發所以這個信任度已經沒有了沒有這個信任就像我們想要把這個"},{"start":5977.622,"end":5986.929,"text":"所謂執法把它提升到母法的位階這只是基本的最基本的對民眾對我們台灣這塊土地的基本交代好 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在所在協商的第二個案子是針對有關於發展觀光條例第11條"},{"start":5998.61,"end":6019.858,"text":"主要規範各個黨團政策立場不一樣的是國家風景區的部分是不是要開放繼續讓他們搞光電板所以全部禁止還是一定面積以下的經過環評可以做各個黨團也都表達了各個黨團的立場行政部門有要發表什麼意見嗎請"},{"start":6024.942,"end":6042.828,"text":"主席各位委員大家好我是交通部觀光署針對發官條例第十一條我們整個在做開發的過程就是大家謝謝大家關心國家風景管理區我們是依照環境部環評認定標準執法的部分第29條第7款第7目"},{"start":6045.809,"end":6062.6,"text":"那位在山坡地国家风景区或者是台湾沿海地区自然环境保护计划核定公告这一般保护区申请开发或累计开发面积一公顷以上都要进行环平那刚刚委员有特别提到我们云嘉南的那个部分"},{"start":6063.521,"end":6075.776,"text":"雲嘉南在我們過去的就是太陽能板面積它是在544平方公米是在我們現在目前的範圍之內所以應該以上先做這樣一個補充 謝謝好 謝謝那謝謝所做的補充"},{"start":6082.486,"end":6095.585,"text":"因為其實其他兩岸性質上面一樣我們就繼續表達意見因為剛剛講的是國家風景區下一個就是國家公園對不起我看一下第三個部分是國家公園法"},{"start":6097.827,"end":6125.592,"text":"協商的標的有三個一個是國家公園法是台灣民眾黨黨團一個是林建啟委員一個是陳新輝委員那在處理的標的都是國家公園法13條那基本上也涉及到的就是在國家公園裡面我們是不是應該繼續的允許他們搞光電板大概就基本上在討論的課題是這個樣子啦那針對這件事情不曉得哪一個黨團要先表示意見"},{"start":6129.42,"end":6131.251,"text":"好那我們先請那個林倩琦委員"},{"start":6132.489,"end":6158.622,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們依據國家公園法很重要的一點最主要是在保護國家特有之自然風景野生物及史蹟雖然當前我們在能源轉型跟綠色經濟的推動下推展再生能源擴大太陽能光電的部署確實是很重要的我們來達成碳中和目標的一個重要的路徑"},{"start":6159.742,"end":6186.417,"text":"但是選址規劃開發程序跟環境生態之間的平衡我認為絕對是要重視的那我拿這邊日本的幾個案例來跟大家做一個補充日本北海道的川陸濕原是日本最大的濕地也是國際拉薩姆公約指定的保護區更是國家特別天然紀念物丹頂鶴的珍稀野生動物的棲地"},{"start":6187.578,"end":6201.444,"text":"近年周邊卻出現大規模的兆瓦級太陽能光電開發案導致地形變動 填土工程砍伐作業也使得失地水文條件生態鏈跟景觀面臨嚴重衝擊"},{"start":6205.345,"end":6226.333,"text":"那麼整個日本的環境省也著手開始評估擴大失源保護的一個範圍並考慮納入更多未保護的邊緣地帶並藉由自然公園法來建構禁止開發區許可置區申報置區的制度強化再生能源跟自然保護之間的一個管制機制"},{"start":6227.173,"end":6246.987,"text":"那麼日本的官員也坦承這個新的修法也沒有辦法來歸管已經進駐的大型案場造成生態的衝擊已經沒有辦法回復了這個是日本的狀況那麼這個案例對我們很重要的啟示就是說再生能源雖然很重要但是如果忽略選址的一個生態風險監管經濟沒有早點來制定的話那麼環境保護法"},{"start":6251.55,"end":6269.489,"text":"如果沒有辦法在配套上做好那就會造成綠能化生環境殺手的一個逆向的結果所以國家公園是我們很重要的自然生態地景景觀跟生物多樣性的一個最高級的保護區域那整個的任務是在於保育而不是開發利用"},{"start":6270.925,"end":6284.521,"text":"整個生態環境保護的功能本席認為應該明定在國家公園區域內不得設置再生能源的設施僅允許附屬既有國家公園的一個管理的設施像山屋"},{"start":6285.792,"end":6314.975,"text":"遊客中心的屋頂或者是辦公廳設規模極小自用而且不能對外受電之再生能源的設置重點有以下幾點整個國土規劃跟稀缺性是很重要的所以我國國家公園的範圍相對有限那都是山海地景段深山跟濕地區域油氣人潮人為的衝擊已經很高了那相較於其他的國家像日本那麼或者是"},{"start":6315.615,"end":6336.008,"text":"日本的國立或準國立的公園的範圍比較廣土地的利用彈性也比較高但是呢我國如果在國家公園內再細分可供大型案場設置的區域一定會削弱保育的功能這個是國家公園很重要的一個阻止另外在生態敏感區域國家公園內有"},{"start":6336.929,"end":6356.182,"text":"很多珍稀物種棲地地形水文敏感區跟生態鏈高度的一個完整性大型光電暗場通常需要很大範圍的砍伐填土改變地形會導致水文的改變棲地的破滅跟入侵機會會增加景觀當然就更不用講了"},{"start":6357.063,"end":6380.421,"text":"所以很重要的這點是制度的一致性跟前瞻性目前我們國在國家公園的建物屋頂或停車場有設有一些自用的小型光電設施但是它不是一種大規模的外售案場如果允許大規模的案場進駐恐怕會與國家公園以保育為優先的法定目的產生矛盾所以我們必須要先做風險的一個評估跟責任的預防"},{"start":6382.603,"end":6387.931,"text":"如果我們沒有先設限的話那造成國家公園本來應該擔負的自然碳匯生物多樣性的保護可能會被侵蝕那麼觀光的價值也會降低那地方民眾的反彈更不用講了反而會阻礙整個"},{"start":6399.287,"end":6424.542,"text":"政策整體的一個推動因此本席在這邊主張國家公園內應該全面禁止再生能源的設置僅允許附屬於園區管理而非對外售電之設備以上 謝謝好 謝謝林建勤委員那接下來不曉得哪一位黨團的代表來先請民主進步黨黨團陳培宇委員"},{"start":6425.481,"end":6450.215,"text":"好 謝謝主席因為剛剛是林倩琪委員發言我們來看一下林倩琪委員的版本是說設置再生能源發電設備你認為必須要放在第十三條國家公園法第十三條是明定禁止的但是你有說到附屬公共設施這些不在此限那看起來民眾黨黨團的版本也是說設置地面型太陽光電系統 淡金環境評估 這些好"},{"start":6450.735,"end":6476.551,"text":"但是我要提醒這兩個提案的委員跟黨團目前第13條的寫法是針對人做出規範人不可以焚灰草木營火整地人不可以狩獵動物人不可以捕捉魚類人不可以污染水質但是我不確定為什麼你們的寫法要放進第13條我覺得有點怪怪的有點不符合這個條文原本規範這個事情但是請讓我講完 謝謝"},{"start":6480.12,"end":6503.073,"text":"再來我要提醒我也想要問一下就是呢目前國家公園法裡面其實就規定關於所謂的一般管制區油氣區使機保存區特別景觀區生態保護區都有相關的土地使用規範也就是說在各位大委員你們擔心之前其實國家公園法針對國家公園裡面的用地規範都已經有明定禁止"},{"start":6503.553,"end":6528.46,"text":"而且在這些條文裡頭也說得很清楚並沒有正面直接允許相關所謂綠電開發設施設備可以放在這些地方也就是說他們並沒有正面支持說可以做這個事情並沒有直接允許因此目前這個寫法我們還是會很好奇為什麼你們要這樣寫那會不會讓人家誤會另外我也想要提醒大家目前"},{"start":6530.501,"end":6544.754,"text":"針對所謂你們所擔心的光電設施的設立如果各位大委員擔心在國家公園裡面會所謂破壞環境或是影響當地的生態甚至你們認為國家公園裡面有所謂的敏感地形"},{"start":6545.675,"end":6569.816,"text":"敏感的地質這些都不在所謂的我剛說的一般管制區、有氣區、使機保存區、特別景觀區、生態保護區你們都認為不在這個框框裡頭你們想要開一個更強度的土地使用規範但是完全禁建到底這樣的規範是不是適合的也要拜託委員們想一想因為像這樣的禁限建的規範是不是在污名化光電這件事情還有"},{"start":6570.977,"end":6594.077,"text":"國家公園裡面有一個東西非常重要可能大委員們都忘記了裡面其實有所謂私人的合法建物而這個私人合法建物如果他今天要自用自己裝光電板在屋頂然後自己用那是不是也變成你們的規範範圍他就完全沒有辦法蓋在他們家這個部分我也很好奇你們是怎麼看"},{"start":6594.477,"end":6619.419,"text":"因為你們有的人是寫再生能源發電設備有的是寫設置地面型太陽光電等等系統所以我覺得把國家公園裡面私有的合法建物的住戶的權益也一併剝奪這個部分要拜託委員們三思 以上謝謝好 謝謝民主進步黨黨團的代表接下來是不是請台灣民眾黨黨團的代表張綺凱委員"},{"start":6621.178,"end":6650.24,"text":"陳培宇 陳委員說有人汙名化了光電葉或光電板光電板這麼多弊案本身就過黑了只有民進黨沒看到還是要當打手一直在掩護 掩護弊案謝謝張祺凱委員 我都有看到對 大樹鄉 大樹區高雄大樹區那個山被鏟平了依照 依照規定依照環境不定的這個執法說設置的這個面積不能夠超過15公頃大家知道嗎"},{"start":6651.4,"end":6673.419,"text":"大樹後來那個開發後來產生土石流 幾公頃51公頃欸 只有民進黨跟主管金融環境部沒看到嗎你自己訂了一個15公頃 不能超過15公頃結果開發的是51公頃這麼嚴重的違法 土石流要沖下來危害到人民的財產生命安全民進黨有看到 環境部有看到 經濟部有看到嗎"},{"start":6674.676,"end":6701.438,"text":"所以當然今天要修法啊民眾黨清楚不能夠超過五公頃而且要定在母法裡面不是子法剛剛陳培宇一直在講說什麼國家級的風景區啦什麼國家公園請你看好台灣民眾黨的提案我們重視的是環評它不是完全不能設置我們的兩個非常重要的你國家公園本來就是要保護啊它本身禁止的項目就有七項我們增加了第八項"},{"start":6703.148,"end":6732.134,"text":"我們要求兩個 第一個 你不是完全不能開發可是你的面積不能夠太大所以你累積的面積不能超過一公頃 這是一個第二個 你要經過嚴格的環評嘛這樣才能夠保護你的國家公園啊 一樣啊國家級的風景特定區 剛剛陳俊輝 陳委員在講阿靠的故鄉 為嘉義分離 嘉義大陸那裡就過了像北門 北門是國家級的這個 私地耶"},{"start":6733.294,"end":6734.814,"text":"黑麵皮露在那邊每年這邊來我們自己來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":6763.052,"end":6787.243,"text":"要經過環評第二個你累積的這個面積就不能夠超過一公頃嘛你們搞到現在整個那個海岸線變成破碎了好像東西一塊是一塊的布丁連很多國際級的那個旅遊雜誌都要笑一個這麼好的台灣美麗的台灣漂亮的海岸線被民進黨政府發展一個光電也不好好去規範"},{"start":6788.786,"end":6796.431,"text":"搞到整個生態都破壞掉了請民進黨不要再欺負我們善良的農民跟移民也不要再破壞我們美麗的台灣好 謝謝針對國家公園裡面到底政策上法規的限制上應不應該允許設置太陽光電系統的這件事情各個黨團表達的看法"},{"start":6816.722,"end":6840.714,"text":"那現在其實分成兩個層次啦一個現行的法規到底可不可以做第二個那如果現行的法規是可以做的話那政策的立場上我們應不應該允許他可以做太陽光電其實簡單來講大家的看法不一樣就是這裡那主管機關要不要表達一下看法好請"},{"start":6843.208,"end":6858.208,"text":"各位委員好 我是國在公園署署長首先感謝各位委員對於國在公園的一個關心確實國在公園目前是以保育還有永續環境為最高的一個保護區域"},{"start":6860.231,"end":6874.976,"text":"那現行的 剛剛主席提到的現行的國家公園法我們在土管的部分是分布在第14條到第20條也就是說最鬆的一般管制區到最嚴格的這個生態保育區"},{"start":6875.896,"end":6890.348,"text":"通通不允許太陽能設施的這個光電的一個設施已經完全是正面表列裡面就沒有這一幾項所以絕對不能做但是目前剛剛委員提到"},{"start":6891.388,"end":6917.125,"text":"環評的部分事實上在那個環評法的一個那個執法裡面開發行為應實施環境影響評估細目跟範圍的這個標準裡面也有針對國家公園一定要實施環評但是屬於屋頂設施的這個太陽能光電事實上是不需要這是我想我們先回到主題現在目前就已經不允許做太陽能光電再生能源設施"},{"start":6917.685,"end":6945.877,"text":"那第二個部分我想還是再補充一下就是說目前國家公園法第13條各位委員放在第13條的第8款感謝各位委員事實上在這條裡面真的就是當初立法的一個意旨就是在禁止遊客行為所以我們對遊客行為不能怎樣不能怎樣那對於土地的話是放在第14到第20條這樣子所以跟各位委員做個這樣的一個補充 謝謝"},{"start":6947.915,"end":6971.103,"text":"我有一個事情請教主管機關就是說按照你剛剛所講的解釋現行國家公園我們不需要修任何法律就不准設太陽光墊是嗎因為我怕誤會你的意思依照現行法就不准如果依照現行法就不准的話"},{"start":6972.642,"end":6986.063,"text":"那為什麼還有在國家公園裡面要環評的問題不准就不准了那還有什麼要環評的必要性連環評都不用做啦因為就是不准啊這個是我聽不懂的地方"},{"start":6987.427,"end":7014.085,"text":"還是說環境部在訂他們的開發行為要實施環境影響評估認定範圍的時候有一些誤會因為你剛剛跟所有的委員還有跟社會大眾講是現在就絕對不準嘛那可是環境部現在的規範是經過環評以後可以這樣大家就聽不懂啊到底是可以還不可以如果是絕對不準那怎麼會有環評的必要呢"},{"start":7015.27,"end":7040.76,"text":"可不可以請你具體的說明一下因為你們現在兩個主管機關擺出來的法規你代表國家公園說國家公園現在就不准設光電板依照現有的規範就是這個樣子那就奇怪了那環境不定那個辦法是那既然不准哪裡有什麼經過環評的必要性我完全聽不懂是不是可以說明一下"},{"start":7043.211,"end":7059.008,"text":"是的 因為目前現任法規確實是沒有正面表列可以做那就是不能做那當初我想當初在那個環境影響評估這個事情細則認定標準的時候可能是這一部分我們"},{"start":7060.593,"end":7088.103,"text":"兩邊的主管機關可能沒有注意到這個問題所以這個部分其實事實上是那個環境部要不要說明一下國家公園署說你們在訂那個環境影響評估的辦法的時候沒有注意到這方面的問題因為這樣造成大家很大的誤會因為法律的規範要蠻清楚的今天如果今天國家公園署的主管機關說現在依照規範就不准"},{"start":7089.281,"end":7098.294,"text":"搞光電那就清楚了嘛就沒有什麼修法的必要那但是你們現在環境部的"},{"start":7100.151,"end":7121.906,"text":"環評標準裡面又說設在國家公園裡面要設環評那不準就不準了還要搞什麼環評那環境部在訂這個辦法的時候是法規有誤會嗎還是怎麼樣是不是請環境部說明一下因為剛國家公園署似乎是指摘你們好像對現行的規範有誤會那環境部要不要說明一下"},{"start":7125.636,"end":7153.283,"text":"如果說木地事業主管這邊提到說國家公園裡面就是禁止設太陽能光電板事實上就是不用做環評即使送來環評我們也會退回就不會去審查不是啊那不是你退不退回的問題啊是你在規範上面寫說在國家公園裡面要經環評啊人家現在說就不准設啊你說經環評可以啊你們當初在公告這個認定標準的時候有經過行政院嗎有嗎"},{"start":7154.946,"end":7182.466,"text":"都有預告然後有請相關機關來表示意見所以當初國家公園署沒有表示到意見是嗎沒有啦因為不好意思喔就各個黨團政策上的立場我都尊重那只不過說因為主管機關在法規的解釋上出現了南圓北側的一個解釋那我作為主席老實說我聽不懂"},{"start":7183.386,"end":7195.662,"text":"所以我才請他們釐清一下所以剛剛先請主管機關針對法規的解釋適用的部分先做了一個說明那我們現在進行第二輪的發言來請翁委員"},{"start":7201.42,"end":7212.169,"text":"我是要剛針對國家公園署的署長您剛說是國家公園法第14條但是第14條的規定基本上的意思是說"},{"start":7213.618,"end":7241.505,"text":"一般的管制區或是油氣區內經過國家公園管理處之許可就可以做一些開發等等的使用那現在只是說你沒許可但是這並沒有在條裡面並沒有明文禁止說在國家公園區是不可以設置光電板換句話說只要你們許可了就可以了那我不信的意思是講說因為這會給你們國家公園處很大的一個裁量權"},{"start":7242.725,"end":7247.528,"text":"而且以現在的情況來看你看甚至連環境影響評估的認定標準裡面現在的第6條本來是在國有的土地的上面是不應該如果說要設置光碟板的話要實施環境影響評估你們自己的認定標準裡面都講說經過能源主管 經關同意者不在此限"},{"start":7267.443,"end":7274.504,"text":"換句話說在國有事業的土地上面要設置光電板"},{"start":7276.072,"end":7297.674,"text":"我们认为其实这是不妥可是南云主管机关只要是他同意他有极大的裁量权他们就可以设置但依照你现在的国家公益法第14条你的规定看起来也是这样只要是国家公益处同意了那就可以做这跟我们的立法政策是不一样的是南云北侧我们认为说就算你同意也不可以做"},{"start":7300.009,"end":7307.334,"text":"平東縣有國家公園國家公園是個高度規管的特殊領域根據國家公園法的規定特別是第14條它是正面表列換言之不在正面表列的行為"},{"start":7328.71,"end":7349.193,"text":"國家公園管理處完全沒有允許的餘地再講一次正面表列的意思是說沒有什麼禁不禁止啦你沒有在這一個實款當中你連來申請都不用申請國家公園沒有可能准給你必須是正面表列的行為國家公園管理當局才有准薄的餘地"},{"start":7350.41,"end":7367.64,"text":"這很清楚所以只要這裡面國家公園法裡面有寫進去正面表列的不管其他的部會有沒有許可國家公園管理當局根本沒有準博的餘地就是不準至於說環境影響評估要不要做那是另一個問題"},{"start":7369.261,"end":7383.745,"text":"如果說今天國家公園法當中有把所謂的光電設施放在裡面是屬於正面表列的可以准語的行為但是環境部說不管你在哪裡就在國家公園裡面要經過環評那縱使沒有經過"},{"start":7388.161,"end":7407.14,"text":"環境部的環評國家公務員也准不了因為這是兩個不同目的的主管機關因為是管了國家公務員的區域範圍內有沒有正面的行為才可以來跟我申請至於你符合這個正面表達的行為你來跟我申請了還有其他的目的事業主管機關定在他的法裡面要求要通過環評"},{"start":7408.98,"end":7414.231,"text":"換言之反過來說 縱使環境部你們訂了在國家公園範圍內的光電設施也要經過環評"},{"start":7418.666,"end":7439.046,"text":"但是國家公園法沒有正面表列把關鍵字放進去這個關鍵字也重視通過你們的反評也沒辦法進入國家公園內這個邏輯我是建議我們次長跟我們的署長回去參詳一下這個沒有很複雜我們常常過去我在屏東縣政府的時候就常常在環境部"},{"start":7439.666,"end":7463.852,"text":"跟國家公園管理當局那時候營建署我們就跑來跑去如果不在營建署規定的國家公園裡面的正面表列行為根本不用去問其他部會就不準了但是如果環境不準了不在國家公園的正面表列行為也不用問營建署因為也不會準 沒得準就這麼簡單我想兩位次長跟署長回去再參詳一下再好好的來思考如何回答"},{"start":7465.883,"end":7490.004,"text":"那個國家公務員署你有要補充說明嗎你要不要修正一下你的答案我先回答翁委員的意見我們14條這邊來講的話是在這些正面表列這些才可以許可 還可以做這邊正面表列就沒有太陽能光電"},{"start":7491.937,"end":7499.152,"text":"這次光電板他總是要挖地啊對啊總是會破壞那個土地啊你這個就是代表可以啊"},{"start":7501.038,"end":7521.971,"text":"你知道我的意思就是設置光電板它是一個籠統的概念但是它裡面會涉及到很多不同階段的行為而你不同階段行為裡面都在你現在這邊講的正面表列可以同意許可的行為裡面因為這邊就沒有寫說再生能源設備或者太陽能光電這邊就沒有所以我們不會許可這方面的相關的這些開發行為這樣子好 沒關係現在陳培宇委員有問題"},{"start":7528.652,"end":7534.28,"text":"主席我來救他們一下我猜 翁委員你應該在意的是第14條"},{"start":7536.385,"end":7564.984,"text":"第十四條的第十款第一項第十款來來來歐委員我們來澄清一下第一項第十款裡面除了剛正面表列事情必須要經主管機關許可第十條寫了一個很大的Range叫其他需經主管機關許可事項我猜歐委員可能在擔心說如果今天有人要來挖然後就跟你申請這個空間你好像很大你就可以做這個事情那我先說我要再次提醒因為剛剛署長你的發言也讓我們非常擔心"},{"start":7567.325,"end":7591.906,"text":"我們對國家公園的想像當然生態景觀這些觀光都沒有問題可是有一個實務是這樣子的署長你一定知道泰魯閣國家公園裡面有私人住戶是合法的秀林鄉大同大理部落三年前開始在民間社團的協助底下山上的民宿業者陸續在屋頂裝設新式太陽能板除電量是以前的20倍以上"},{"start":7592.646,"end":7619.504,"text":"這件事情你們知道嗎好這個事情好我先說這個事情我們是為了好我們是我們絕對不是為了那個什麼圖利廠商因為剛很多人在說圖利廠商而是在颱風的這樣的區間我們看到山區的部落我們確實需要發展自己的電網微電網我們希望不要受到主電網任何的變動因素所影響我們希望住在山區部落裡面的"},{"start":7620.425,"end":7642.735,"text":"所有鄉親朋友們在微電網這個系統的概念支持下他們有裝設屋頂太陽能板的可能性所以我剛剛才會在第一輪的發言的時候舉例我剛剛主要是不同的國家公園裡面都有私人合法建物它可能有自主微電網的需求的可能"},{"start":7643.155,"end":7656.59,"text":"那他們是不是就可以如同嘉賓幹事長剛剛所說的如果他對你們提出申請那可能可以適用剛剛所謂其他虛金主管機關許可事項然後你們再會同環境部去協助他看需不需要還品或是"},{"start":7658.412,"end":7684.587,"text":"可不可以有機會允許他們去設置所謂家戶用的微電網的部分我不確定歐小林委員是不是應該因為在擔心這些事情但是我說如果是像這樣子的事情其實我們要更多支持的是完善的法規協助當地的住民有自主微電網這件事情以上 謝謝所以要拜託國土那個不好意思 署長我覺得你真的話要講清楚了因為"},{"start":7686.332,"end":7703.731,"text":"你剛剛對法規的解釋連執政黨的委員都提出了挑戰他顯然是不認同你剛剛對國家公園法解釋的方式因為我覺得這也正常啦我們在這邊協商就是給你機會把立場"},{"start":7705.034,"end":7728.508,"text":"跟現在法規範的狀態到底是什麼因為如果剛剛陳培宇委員所講的是客觀真實存在的狀況的話那代表你剛剛所講的完全是錯誤的因為現在就存在啦那現在就存在了你還說現在不行那明明就有啦那現在是到底是什麼狀況是不是署長你把它解釋清楚會比較好一點"},{"start":7729.853,"end":7754.482,"text":"我剛剛其實也有提到就是說目前現有的山屋或者是我們館處的屋頂這些或者停車場的這些屋頂事實上就可以做太陽能光墊這個是可以的我們剛才提到的是地面型的水面型的這些當然我們通通是土地管理那一塊我們當然是不行我先停一下剛剛你說可以的可以的依據是什麼"},{"start":7755.58,"end":7770.409,"text":"因為按照你剛剛的說法是正面表列正面表列沒有的就不可以那你剛剛說屋頂什麼又可以了那可以是在你正面表列的第幾款可不可以跟大家稍微說明一下你們的法規適用"},{"start":7771.269,"end":7793.789,"text":"是的 這個事實上在建築技術規則的建築設計施工篇裡面不好意思 這不是建築技術規則的問題現在我們在討論的是國家公園法太陽能光電如果是附屬在這些建物上的這屬於附屬設施這些事實上是可以的對啊 但是剛剛我們從頭到尾你剛剛一直都在跟大家講說依照國家公園法的規定嘛"},{"start":7794.98,"end":7813.431,"text":"那你說國家公園法裡面沒有陣列表列的都是不行啊那現在大家在胡疑的是你的法規範解釋是不是正確啊那怎麼又變成到不好意思喔我現在在請教他問題我還沒有說完話主席我們是不是可以讓我們請教沒有 請他回答問題以後你有什麼問題我等一下會讓你問嘛剛剛你就在講國家公園法"},{"start":7820.765,"end":7844.893,"text":"我不會拼錯啦你說國家公園法沒有正面表列就不行我們現在看到了你又突然有多一個解釋跑到建築技術規則去了是不是請署長再跟大家示意一下登記下一個發言那個14條裡面的後面的這些是屬於土地管制的這一部分是土地管制的這一部分"},{"start":7845.424,"end":7861.001,"text":"那剛剛我回到了就是說屋頂的 山屋的或者是館處的這些屋頂設施 護室設施這些事實上是可以設置太陽能光墊的這是以自用為限的這些太陽能光墊事實上是可以來使用 謝謝"},{"start":7863.487,"end":7872.618,"text":"那個 好 謝謝署長的說明大家是不是聽得懂 我覺得沒有關係 他有他的說明那法規範的解釋 那個是歸法規範的解釋來 請莊嘉斌委員來 署長"},{"start":7878.021,"end":7899.168,"text":"因為可能很多在場的委員沒有在國家公園內處理過相關的行政申請程序那因為你剛剛有稍微講了一個叫做土地開發行為那麼建築上的一些失色國家公園內在屏東有很多民宅那請問民宅裡面要裝設抽水馬桶"},{"start":7900.236,"end":7929.374,"text":"要不要正面表列沒有在14條裡面可不可以我們當然不會去問因為那是建築行為建築行為本身如果已經取得建造的建築物它的上面要修屋瓦要附設光電板只要符合當時營建署或者現在國家公園管理署國家公園署你們當時核給建造的建築就是建築規範那我們就可以依照這個建築規範來跟你們申請是不是這樣子"},{"start":7930.214,"end":7944.847,"text":"所以要強調一次總不成我們的家在國家公園範圍內我們有一棟建築是有經過跟國家公園取得建造的現在我不管要換馬桶 還要修屋瓦還是要複設光電板"},{"start":7946.428,"end":7974.003,"text":"是不是只要符合建築規範符合你們當時合給我建造的建築規範我就可以來提出是不是這樣子因為我這個複設不管是修馬桶換屋瓦還是複設光電板都是建築屋上的行為不是所謂的土地開發行為你們這第14條裡面我看裡面極大部分除了第一幕之外除了第一幕是跟建築之外其他的部分都是涉及到土地的開發行為還有"},{"start":7976.384,"end":7999.777,"text":"額外的使用建造以外的這些設施像溫泉水源啊建築廣告招牌啦工廠的設施啊原來這些都在國家公園裡面如果經過你們許可的他有涉及到這些行為的就要經過你們經過許可嘛是不是這樣子那總不至於我家換屋啊根據建築公園跟你申請你也要說不可以嗎是不是這樣子請那個翁委員"},{"start":8007.478,"end":8024.309,"text":"剛剛署長這邊講的這國家公園管理處的許可現在重點在於第14條的許可你說現在在這個山屋上面設置小型光電板這個概念基本上是跟廣告招牌或其他類似物的設置基本上的概念是比較相似的"},{"start":8025.31,"end":8042.193,"text":"就算你們搖頭說這不等於像是廣告招牌或其他類似物的設置必須進入國家公寓許可但是你現在設置那個部分難道不需要經過其他主管機關許可嗎看起來是要嘛經過什麼你剛剛講什麼建築物的許可對不對你就算是經過其他的建築許可已經得到許可了之後你國家公寓管理處你還是要再發一個許可他才能夠做啊他才能夠設置啊"},{"start":8056.069,"end":8073.236,"text":"就光電是不是對 就小型光電板我們現在就是回到您剛剛講的山屋上面設置一個小型光電板那它要經過怎麼樣的程序還是它按設置就設置根本不需要經過任何主管機關的許可包含國家公園處在內"},{"start":8075.206,"end":8098.814,"text":"國家公園管理處是那個裡面的建物事實上是建築執照是由我們國家公園管理處來核發的那它上面的那個太陽能光墊它設施它是屬於它就用那個建築法規去申請這樣子所以就還是要經過你們許可嗎不是這個不是這個應該就不是我們這屬於雜項執照這個不需要我們經過許可這樣子"},{"start":8101.624,"end":8129.01,"text":"所以是經過其他主管機關許可然後你們看了他拿到了雜項許可之後所以你們也同意他可以設置那個概念就是符合所謂的第十款的規定你第十四條裡面的第十款其他必須經主管機關許可事項我們現在要講就是說你不管怎麼解釋第十四條基本上就是它原則上這些行為不是不能做但是必須經過國家公園管理處的同意"},{"start":8130.01,"end":8155.727,"text":"還有或者是經過其他許可其他主管機關許可之後那才可以做開發利用那我們現在的方向只是說未來就算是你們同意就算是環評同意無論如何就是不能夠設置地面型的光電板對那所以在法規上面訂定的更嚴格這有什麼不對這跟你們的現在的法律裡面你們就是沒有訂到這一塊啊"},{"start":8162.667,"end":8180.184,"text":"我再講一次 14條真的是圖館的部分因為你做地面型的 大型的這些光電都是要土地的這一塊是大型的我剛剛一直提到了說在13條上是有點可異因為13條它是遊客的行為"},{"start":8181.846,"end":8209.139,"text":"那我又回來了就剛剛大家一直在focus在於就是那建物的光電就在國家公園裡面的那個建築物屋頂的這個光電是不是還要經過我們這個這裡面的明定的他才可以做事實上是不需要的事實上是不需要的因為那個是屬於你現在屋頂也是自用的那個部分是用那個建築技術規則裡面的相關規定它是屬於護石設施就可以做太陽能光電"},{"start":8209.639,"end":8234.046,"text":"所以請教一下現在假設有業者要進行地面上面的光電板的設置那麼主管機關假設也同意了環評也同意了那國家公務員管理處是不是也會同意在這裡面主管機關就是我們啊我們當然就不會同意啊是但是如果說以後換了一個處長他同意了呢我們不要這樣有沒有違反現行法嗎不會違反現行法"},{"start":8238.424,"end":8266.01,"text":"假設這個土地管理機關同意了環評也同意了國家管理處的處長也同意了所以它就可以設置我們現在法律基本上之所以我們要這個嚴格的訂定當然就是以防萬一萬一有一個國家管理處的處長不像今天這個署長這樣子的一個堅持他有可能同意同意的話基本上不違法"},{"start":8267.836,"end":8290.397,"text":"如果真的在地面上設置光碟板是不違法因為法就不行做所以它不可能同意你告訴我哪裡法又不行做所以我就說我們對於第14條的解釋有非常大的不同我認為說署長您今天的解釋基本上是違反我們法律的條文的文藝解釋的"},{"start":8293.368,"end":8311.605,"text":"那個署長可能自己主管的法規還是要掌握的比較清楚一點要不然的話你會讓大家在那邊繞來繞去特別是第十款第十款的規定裡面你可能回去自己再看一下"},{"start":8312.987,"end":8334.239,"text":"我們接下來第四個案子是針對有關於地質法第五條條文的修正草案那一樣是在地質法裡面第五條裡面針對有關於在地質法裡面特殊地質的區域那是不是有禁止的必要那不曉得哪一個黨團的委員要先發言都沒有人要發言是不是"},{"start":8343.083,"end":8370.734,"text":"所以都沒有黨團要發言嗎好那第四個案子都沒有黨團要發現在是經濟部想發言是不是那請經濟部的次長主席 主委委員地質法依照他的立法的宗旨是來建立地質的調查制度跟資料還有基本資訊而他所有的條文裡面各個章節"},{"start":8371.923,"end":8391.516,"text":"比如說第一章的總則或是第二章是地質調查制度然後甚至是第三章的部分是地質資料的管理跟地質的研究它的立法宗旨是在這一邊至於主委委員所關心的相關的不管是再生能源或是光電"},{"start":8392.895,"end":8418.033,"text":"他的開發行為土地使用的管制或是環評的設立標準那我們認為說是不是回歸到環評法的施行細則及範圍的認定標準裡面來進行討論因為這跟地質法的制定的宗旨是不一樣的以上報告好 謝謝經濟部的意見那其他黨團的成員還有什麼要補充嗎好 來請翁委員"},{"start":8420.879,"end":8444.676,"text":"我想針對《地質法》第五條的修正案其實這條修正的目的跟其他的《國家公園法》或是《發展公共條例》《環境享用法》的這個宗旨都是一樣的我們希望能夠在法規裡面定定的清楚哪些區域未來就是不得設置地面型及水域型的太陽光電板"},{"start":8445.456,"end":8466.537,"text":"除非說它是比較小規模或是經過環境想評估的才可以做因為在我們現行法裡面的確沒有訂得很清楚而且給行政機關有太大的裁量空間不管是在訂定行政命令的部分或者是說在行使裁量同意的部分所以我們認為說其實從立法的角度來講我們訂得更明確"},{"start":8467.938,"end":8472.122,"text":"能夠讓行政機關有比較少的可能會濫用財糧權的這樣的一個情況那麼在這次的地質法的第5條的修正裡面其實他也是做了相當的清楚的一個修正除了原則上不得設置之外但是如果是小規模設置在1公頃面積在1公頃以內的話還是可以同意可以去設置"},{"start":8495.563,"end":8497.607,"text":"水域型或是地面型的太陽光電板"},{"start":8499.025,"end":8526.501,"text":"好 謝謝翁委員今天我們協商經過各個黨團跟我們的行政機關的代表大家都表達了相關的看法立場跟意見顯然我們針對今天所協商的四個案子都沒有辦法達成共識我們今天協商的會議到此結束本案就保留送院會處理 謝謝 散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}