{"error":false,"id":["170357"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170357,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170357","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T11:14:57+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T11:26:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c821036a471ee0973c8fe8c89d092fec882f4d75944b02079af30913bf80977d0b5285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:14:57 - 11:26:55","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":5.76846875,"end":7.72596875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":8.114093750000002,"end":9.227843750000002,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"盧委員縣一","start":9.31221875,"end":10.712843750000001,"speaker_score":0.708},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":9.83534375,"end":11.37096875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"盧委員縣一","start":11.37096875,"end":12.164093750000003,"speaker_score":0.708},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"盧委員縣一","start":13.800968750000003,"end":13.817843750000002,"speaker_score":0.708},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":13.817843750000002,"end":14.661593750000002,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":17.51346875,"end":23.301593750000002,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":23.57159375,"end":31.047218750000003,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":31.570343750000003,"end":35.299718750000004,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":35.89034375,"end":36.80159375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":37.57784375,"end":41.070968750000006,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":40.58159375,"end":41.67846875,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":41.67846875,"end":41.96534375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":41.96534375,"end":43.619093750000005,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":44.10846875,"end":61.69221875,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":60.73034375,"end":66.14721875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":66.28221875,"end":69.04971875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":68.57721875,"end":68.86409375000001,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":69.50534375000001,"end":74.11221875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":69.85971875,"end":71.69909375,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":74.11221875000001,"end":79.02284375,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":79.02284375,"end":79.25909375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":79.25909375,"end":79.41096875000001,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":79.41096875000001,"end":82.88721875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":83.41034375000001,"end":88.87784375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":89.45159375,"end":90.81846875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":90.80159375000001,"end":91.29096875,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":90.97034375000001,"end":93.40034375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":93.83909375,"end":97.06221875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":97.45034375,"end":101.78721875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":100.23471875000001,"end":105.06096875,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":102.24284375,"end":104.97659375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"蘇委員清泉","start":105.06096875,"end":111.40596875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.12346875,"speaker_score":0.849},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":110.29221875,"end":110.34284375,"speak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謝謝 謝謝主席我請最辛苦的部長我請市長兩部長還有食藥署署長好 蘇委員好"},{"start":19.398,"end":41.071,"text":"我幾個問題請教 第一就是我們現在在夜市 菜市場在吃回鍋油 炸油 解退的那些油回收回來 現在那些油的動向是去哪裡 怎麼回收是去做工業用 還是去做消毀 這邊一規定是消毀"},{"start":44.273,"end":61.992,"text":"就是這一批我們講的這些油因為這個夜市用的這個炸油都是比較大容量的所以一家都是被我們要求要下架回收啦回收之後呢才有一個處置的原則我講現在全台灣的夜市下架的油"},{"start":66.657,"end":78.944,"text":"每天這樣回收一種這些油平常的啦 平常的油啦 都外出去了那是跟環保署在處理他有一個再利用的循環"},{"start":79.83,"end":94.826,"text":"再利用是弄到工業區還是弄到什麼區因為上次食安出問題上一次就是因為回收再製產生一大堆問題那現在施工配置不一樣所以這裡一樣也是在產生這裡的油現在是"},{"start":97.529,"end":115.88,"text":"怎麼做 不然你再查一下好不好就是平常日常家的 日常的用途整個台灣的鴨子這麼不得了呢或是說他們在炸回鍋的啊重複用的這些不能再用了我們再跟環保 這個環境部了解一下這種會銷毀 我是不太相信 應該是轉到國內不是銷毀 我說有問題的才是銷毀 應該是循環"},{"start":124.765,"end":151.677,"text":"那因為這樣所以後來食安法就修改說所有的油類都要原始的譬如說大豆油葵花油、棕櫚油、菜籽油等等這些都要原始的原料起來只是說像你沙拉油一定要用大豆拿出來好啦那這一次的問題"},{"start":153.53,"end":159.056,"text":"就是原始的大豆放大豆出來加熱,也是很大件事這兩天我請教很多專家有馬里蘭的,有密西根的,有台灣的,師大他們說兩個,一個是"},{"start":174.813,"end":184.978,"text":"我們在加熱的過程中250度到350度加熱那些有機物會自己游離出來然後本跟本會結合所以這個是五個本"},{"start":186.263,"end":203.88,"text":"那看起來這個C20H12那如果有加上OH的話它是很穩定的喔那個是沒有辦法從有上面再把它拿出來是拿不出來喔所以唯一只有銷毀喔"},{"start":205.464,"end":230.279,"text":"所以普天府你可能這間也有很多啦我是覺得做醫生在補這個我覺得很累所以你現在這些東西我就一直想說能不能從油裡面有這種汙染物能不能把它萃取出來結果是沒辦法所以唯一就像你說的那些消費而已那消費是怎麼消費就拿去火化爐就把它燒掉是這樣嗎"},{"start":235.517,"end":259.959,"text":"不能流入這些食物鏈是確定的但是是不是可以做燃料,這另外一個顆爐啦做燃料也是一個顆爐啦反正成機油啦,所以把它造化因為像這一次這個油供應的時候也會供應到塑膠製造在那個塑膠製造過程中有怎麼用到,有大豆油"},{"start":260.92,"end":282.845,"text":"另外一個我們衛生部一直講說是在加熱過程中製造過程中自己產生的這些本類的化合物但是也有人懷疑是從剛剛一開始我有提到我們這次中聯油脂中聯油脂這間公司是剛才說的五間公司大家合資去成立的"},{"start":285.546,"end":306.076,"text":"這五間,中油這五間,是它的投資者,所以很複雜,部長你也搞不清楚啦。不管如何,就是說它藉著過程中是有汙染的,那這個是原始的大豆,因為有化學的專家認為,這個是在巴西就出問題。"},{"start":307.176,"end":325.928,"text":"因為它要潮濕,還有遇到雨季,這陶瓦淋上去運送過程那麼久,所以它會用高溫加熱那高溫加熱是燒什麼?燒油用油燒燒起,把黃豆烘乾就對了我們烘切的也是用油烘的油烘的肉去烘,烘切的,切完以後就卡"},{"start":336.072,"end":346.588,"text":"那有的是用煤炭燒然後吹進去熱氣煤炭燃燒不完全嘛現在有幾乎都黏著在"},{"start":347.894,"end":367.29,"text":"黃豆的殼上面,這是有可能的喔你把萃取的生氣放到我身上就出事了所以這個可能性也很大中聯說他現在是該用巴西的黃豆,以前是美國的黃豆這個也有可能的,署長你也要去查看到底這是不是中"},{"start":369.712,"end":394.689,"text":"這個來源有問題 再來你在煉油的過程中你為了要脫膠 脫澀 脫酸 脫臭你還有加一些有加什麼東西沒有 只是用熱 把它塞出來而已看到多立原本 多立原本是怎麼來的多立原本是那個管子要加熱 那管子裡面是多立原本因為多立原本是很穩定的"},{"start":396.124,"end":422.159,"text":"加到一千度都沒有問題的 結果那個是管子破掉那多利涼比較滲到食用油裡面去是這樣出事的 吃了大家都頭痛痛的所以這是歷史這樣一波一波來的 大家都痛苦的經驗所以我要問你的就是說在這個脫膠 脫色 脫臭 脫酸這個四個步驟你是只有用加熱 還是它有加添加劑"},{"start":425.153,"end":451.492,"text":"是用正極丸在萃正極丸在萃另外就是因為有脫臭的時候會加白土所以那個會變成是缺氧的狀態特別這個部分我們也在蓋他的製成所以在缺氧的狀態下他這有幾乎就又自己合成是不是這樣是這樣來嗎你到目前的了解我目前的了解從前面的豆子第二個是脫氣"},{"start":453.543,"end":481.381,"text":"脫臭的過程跟脫色的過程當中因為高溫加上低壓真空的狀態都有可能讓他理論上是製程會讓百分之八十會降下來我們希望能夠確定他的製程能夠改進也是我們在教他做修正這個我想比較重要不然的話將來層次不窮啦不然這比什麼更重要再來第二輪的這五家公司他們接受到這個油之後他們有沒有混油"},{"start":482.282,"end":495.529,"text":"因為我看他們的成本不一樣啊他們有沒有混友第二個他們自己去抽菸有的是合標的有的是多兩倍的有的多四倍的像那個什麼多四倍的那個給你們通報那一家什麼陳輝龍 南橋這間就說四倍為什麼會標 都外送來是自己檢驗室做的"},{"start":506.7,"end":524.111,"text":"有自願的檢驗室也有外送結果出來怎麼差那麼多 有的是可貴 有的是一倍 有的是四倍 怕死人 要信對頭所以我就沒補 有補是不是這樣 這件是不是這樣這位是驗出來都有超標對啦 但是沒補啦你說他們自主檢驗的部分有驗到超標 但是沒什麼補"},{"start":534.79,"end":559.229,"text":"沒有跟主管機關通報啦是跟他的上游業者通報啊上游的話也沒有馬上跟主管機關通報自己又再驗一次啊直到驗到後面真的是超標啊通報就一定六月三十號啊所以已經吵個一、二個月啊所以吃這麼久啊"},{"start":562.711,"end":563.312,"text":"所以我會問你一個很重要的問題"},{"start":566.664,"end":590.197,"text":"這些這樣一直的製程都是這樣那就是今天這一攤百坑啊如果沒有 平常茶要加一杯啦 加兩杯啦這個這個這個Mensopurine PyreneMensopurine P-A-V-A-P嘛Mensopurine國際繁殖 繁殖也是三萬元的啊這有這麼不合分的 繁殖要誰拿出來啦全台灣我看不到幾個人拿出來這個名"},{"start":595.902,"end":616.95,"text":"每一次都用很艱深的中文很奇怪我的意思就是說這過程中如果都沒有驗出來或是說高一點點或是說這個東西本來就有在這個食用油裡面那這我們長期吃有沒有問題 法定人物代謝46小時 72小時就代謝掉但是這樣長期會不會對肝臟對腎臟有問題會不會常常說一級之愛會不會怕死人"},{"start":625.617,"end":633.549,"text":"所以這也是我們在2017年訂出這個標準的啦這之前也沒有 這個標準也是2017年訂出來的 2018年才開始蓋這個東西的"},{"start":640.18,"end":664.584,"text":"所以你現在用的是什麼2.1ppb2.0ppbppb嘛 如果這個安堵這個液體就OK那吃下去也是有問題可是我們的器官 強壯的器官把它代謝掉是不是這樣 它也是會代謝嘛它是會代謝 沒有錯因為那個是蠻穩定的化合物 蠻穩定的"},{"start":667.83,"end":688.926,"text":"那如果他有再加上兩個OHG的話,他會跟那個DNA的雙骨剛好都卡住,那是引起突變的所以這個是蠻嚴重的事情,所以不一定,這痛定思痛啦對啊怪人怪事沒什麼意思,但是一定要看得到怎麼防範"},{"start":692.008,"end":718.578,"text":"我們從這個經驗裡面去強化未來的慣例啦2017之前沒有驗2017之前我們搞不好吃了30年了對嗎對 2017年我吃30年我吃30年就沒有事了就算了我們越健康越好啦就盡量避免接觸這樣好 部長加油好 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:03.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:06.584000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請最辛苦的部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:06.765000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:07.265000+08:00","text":"請石崇良部長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:07.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:07.986000+08:00","text":"還有食藥署署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:07.986000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:08.986000+08:00","text":"請姜署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:08.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:08.327000+08:00","text":"蘇委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:16.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:32.968000+08:00","text":"我有幾個問題要請教，第一個就是我們現在在夜市、菜市場買用回鍋油在炸的雞腿等等，那些油回收之後的動向是去了哪裡？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:32.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:33.488000+08:00","text":"是怎麼回收的？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:34.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:36.911000+08:00","text":"是去做工業用，還是去做肥皂？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:37.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:37.811000+08:00","text":"是銷毀。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:37.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:15:57.991000+08:00","text":"這邊依規定是銷毀，就是這一批我們講的這些油，這些都比較……因為夜市用的這些炸油都是比較大容量的，所以這邊的都被我們要求要下架回收，回收之後才有一個處置的原則……","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:15:57.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:05.418000+08:00","text":"不是，部長你再聽我講，我說的是，現在全臺灣夜市裡用的油、每天回收來的這種油都到了哪裡？","quality":0.447},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:06.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:07.299000+08:00","text":"你是說平常嗎？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:08.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:08.680000+08:00","text":"對，平常。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:08.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:09.960000+08:00","text":"平常在用的油嗎？","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:09.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:10.961000+08:00","text":"對，都到了哪裡？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:12.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:15.944000+08:00","text":"都交給環境部處理，它有一個再利用的循環。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:16.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:19.012000+08:00","text":"再利用是送到工業去還是送到哪裡去？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:20.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:34.709000+08:00","text":"因為上次食安出問題就是因為回收再製而產生了一大堆的問題，現在時空背景不一樣了，所以還是同樣會產生這些油，現在是怎麼做的？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:34.709000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:37.291000+08:00","text":"部長查得到嗎？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:37.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:38.732000+08:00","text":"就是平常、日常在用的油……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:40.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:41.073000+08:00","text":"包括全臺灣的夜市，這可不得了耶！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:43.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:47.897000+08:00","text":"還是說，那些回鍋的、重複用的、不能再用的這些……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:48.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:51.139000+08:00","text":"我們會再跟環境部了解一下。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:51.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:51.899000+08:00","text":"這種的會銷毀我是不怎麼信，應該會轉到工業或者是……","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:16:52.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:16:52.880000+08:00","text":"那些不會銷毀，我說的是那些有問題的才是銷毀，但這些應該會循環……","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:17:01.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:17:27.236000+08:00","text":"因為這樣所以後來食安法就修改成所有的油類都要從origin（原始）的……譬如說大豆油、葵花油、棕櫚油、菜籽油等等都要從原始的原料萃取出來，就像你的沙拉油就一定要從大豆榨出來。好啦！","quality":0.787},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:17:28.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:17:33.593000+08:00","text":"這次的問題就是原始的大豆在精煉過程中要加熱，這樣也是出事！","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:17:33.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:20.860000+08:00","text":"這兩天我請教了化學界的專家，包括馬里蘭的、密西根的，也有臺灣師大的，他們說有兩個狀況，一個是我們在加熱的過程中，用250℃到350℃在加熱，那些有機物會自己游離出來，然後苯跟苯會結合，所以這裡有5個苯，看起來這個C₂₀H₁₂如果有加上OH的話，它就是很穩定的，那個是沒有辦法從油上面再把它拿出來，那是拿不出來的，所以唯一只剩銷毀一途了。","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:23.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:29.048000+08:00","text":"部長，從這個案子裡你可能也學到很多，我是覺得當醫生當到要搞這個，我都覺得好累。","quality":0.514},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:31.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:38.834000+08:00","text":"針對這些東西，我就一直在想能不能從油裡面把這些污染物萃取出來？","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:38.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:41.815000+08:00","text":"結果是沒辦法，所以唯一能做的就像你講的，就是銷毀而已。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:43.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:43.977000+08:00","text":"那銷毀是怎麼銷毀的？","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:44.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:46.258000+08:00","text":"是拿去焚化爐燒掉嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:47.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:47.279000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:52.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:55.780000+08:00","text":"不能流入食物鏈中是確定的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:55.780000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:18:57.322000+08:00","text":"對，不能。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:18:57.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:02.146000+08:00","text":"但是不是可以作為燃料，則是另外一個考慮，所以用作燃料也是一種考慮。","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:02.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:08.091000+08:00","text":"就是轉作機油或是把它皂化作為工業使用？","quality":0.278},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:08.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:16.939000+08:00","text":"對，因為這次的油在供應的時候也會供應到塑膠製造，在塑膠製造的過程中也會用到大豆油。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:17.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.266000+08:00","text":"另外一個衛福部一直講是在加熱過程中、製造過程中自己產生了這些苯類的化合物，但是也有人懷疑是從剛剛我一開始提到的中聯油脂……中聯油脂這間公司是剛剛提到的那5間公司合資成立的，這5間……","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.266000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:44.266000+08:00","text":"是3間啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:44.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:50.710000+08:00","text":"這幾間是它的投資者，所以是超複雜的，部長你也搞不清楚啦！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:52.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:14.903000+08:00","text":"無論如何，在製造的過程中是有污染的，有化學的專家認為原始的大豆在巴西就出問題了，因為那邊潮溼，又遇到雨季，考慮到豆子可能會濕掉，加上運送過程那麼久，所以會用高溫加熱。","quality":0.627},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:15.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:16.124000+08:00","text":"高溫加熱是燒什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:16.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:18.145000+08:00","text":"燒油，用油燒進去，把黃豆烘乾就對了。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:18.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:19.446000+08:00","text":"我們烘稻穀也是用油的熱氣去烘的，因為稻穀有殼。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:33.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:52.861000+08:00","text":"有的是用煤炭燒，把熱氣吹進去，煤炭燃燒不完全，那些有機物就黏著在黃豆殼上面，這是有可能的，萃取的時候，熱氣讓有機物黏黃豆殼上面，所以這個可能性也很多。","quality":0.687},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:54.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:00.607000+08:00","text":"中聯現在改用巴西的黃豆，以前是美國的黃豆，這個也有可能。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:00.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:08.033000+08:00","text":"署長，你也要去查看看到底是不是中間的來源有問題。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:08.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:18.100000+08:00","text":"再來，在煉油的過程中，為了要脫焦、脫色、脫酸、脫臭，還有加什麼東西嗎？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:18.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:21.082000+08:00","text":"還是只是用熱氣推出來而已？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:22.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:24.464000+08:00","text":"以前多氯聯苯是怎麼來的？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:24.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:49.133000+08:00","text":"多氯聯苯是管子要加熱，管子裡面是多氯聯苯，因為多氯聯苯是很穩定的，加到1000度都沒有問題，結果那個是管子破掉，造成多氯聯苯就滲到食用油裡面去，是這樣出事的，吃了大家都很慘，所以這是歷史一步一步走來的痛苦經驗。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:49.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:59.159000+08:00","text":"我要問你的是，脫焦、脫色、脫臭、脫酸這4個步驟是只有用加熱，還是有加添加劑？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:59.159000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:02.153000+08:00","text":"你們知道嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:02.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:16.384000+08:00","text":"是用正己烷在萃，另外就是脫臭的時候會加白土、抽真空，所以會變成是缺氧的狀態，特別在這個部分我們也在它的製程上面去……","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:16.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:22.868000+08:00","text":"所以在缺氧的狀態下，這些有機物又自己合成，是不是這樣？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:22.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:24.490000+08:00","text":"是這樣來的嘛。對。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:24.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:25.630000+08:00","text":"你到目前的了解……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:25.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:46.013000+08:00","text":"對，就我目前了解，從前面的豆子，第二個是脫臭的過程跟脫色的過程當中，因為高溫加上低壓真空的狀態，都有可能讓它……理論上是製程會讓80%降下來，我們希望確定它的製程能夠改進，這也是我們叫它做修正的部分。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:46.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:49.335000+08:00","text":"這個我想比較重要，不然的話，將來層出不窮。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:50.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:51.157000+08:00","text":"部長，這比什麼都重要。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:52.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:58.361000+08:00","text":"再來，第二輪這5家公司接收油之後，他們有沒有混油？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:59.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:01.863000+08:00","text":"因為我看他們的成品不一樣，他們有沒有混油？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:02.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:11.949000+08:00","text":"第二個，他們自己去抽驗，有的是合標的，有的是多2倍，有的多4倍，像跟你們通報的那家公司……陳飛龍……南僑。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:11.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:12.009000+08:00","text":"南僑這家公司就說是4倍。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:12.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:12.509000+08:00","text":"都是外送的，還是自己檢驗室做的？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:23.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:25.661000+08:00","text":"他們有自驗的檢驗室，也有外送。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:26.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:32.766000+08:00","text":"結果出來怎麼差那麼多，有的是合規，有的是1倍，有的是4倍，嚇死人，到底要相信哪一個？","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:32.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:35.048000+08:00","text":"所以有的就沒有通報，有的有通報，是不是這樣？","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:35.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:35.648000+08:00","text":"這件是不是這樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:35.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:57.354000+08:00","text":"這回驗出來的都有超標，但是沒通報，就是他們自主檢驗的部分有驗到超標，但是沒有馬上通報，沒有跟主管機關通報，而是跟他們的上游業者通報。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:57.354000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:01.257000+08:00","text":"上游就沒跟你們通報。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:01.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:11.706000+08:00","text":"上游也沒有馬上跟主管機關通報，自己又再驗一次，直到驗到後面真的是超標才通報，就已經是6月30日了。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:12.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:14.568000+08:00","text":"所以已經超過一個多月了？對。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:15.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:15.949000+08:00","text":"所以已經吃下去了。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:19.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:46.297000+08:00","text":"我要問一個更嚴肅的問題，一直的製程都是這樣，今天這一件出包了，如果沒有，平常查出多1倍、多2倍的Benzo[a]pyrene……中文是誰翻的，哪有這麼沒學問的，翻成這樣，誰讀得出來？","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:46.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:47.177000+08:00","text":"全臺灣我看沒幾個人讀得出來這個名字。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:52.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:55.783000+08:00","text":"每次都用很艱深的中文，很奇怪。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:56.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:09.849000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，過程中如果都沒有驗出來，或是高一點點，或是這個東西本來就有在食用油裡面，部長，我們長期吃有沒有問題？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:11.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:12.570000+08:00","text":"吃完46小時、72小時會代謝掉，但是這樣長期會不會對肝臟、對腎臟有問題？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:13.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:13.930000+08:00","text":"它是一級致癌物，嚇死人，部長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:22.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:30.469000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們在2017年訂出這個標準，之前也都沒有，這個標準也是2017年才訂出來的，2018年才開始驗這個東西。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:37.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:43.161000+08:00","text":"所以你們現在用2.1 ppb……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:43.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:43.801000+08:00","text":"2.0 ppb。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:44.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:56.243000+08:00","text":"如果under這個之下就算OK，但是吃了還是有問題，要用我們強壯的器官把它代謝掉，是不是這樣？","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:56.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:57.524000+08:00","text":"它也是會代謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:58.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:16.679000+08:00","text":"它是會代謝沒有錯，因為那個是滿穩定的化合物，如果它再加上兩個OHg的話，會跟DNA的雙股剛好都卡住，那是會引起突變的，所以這個是滿嚴重的事情。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:19.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:25.926000+08:00","text":"部長，要痛定思痛，怪東怪西沒什麼意思，但是一定要看要怎麼防範，好不好？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:29.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:32.629000+08:00","text":"對，我們一定會從這個經驗裡面去強化未來的管理。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:33.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:39.492000+08:00","text":"2017年之前沒有驗，2017年之前我們搞不好吃了30年了，對不對？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:39.492000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:40.492000+08:00","text":"對，這個標準是2017年才出來的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:39.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:43.073000+08:00","text":"有可能你吃了30年，我也吃了30年，我們都沒死就算阿彌陀佛了，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.321},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:45.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:49.756000+08:00","text":"當然我們越健康越好，就儘量避免接觸。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"蘇委員清泉","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:49.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:53.237000+08:00","text":"好，部長加油！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:53.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:55.038000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:55.038000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:55.578000+08:00","text":"謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:56.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:00.649429+08:00","text":"現在處理新收臨時提案計有1案，請宣讀。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:00.949429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:02.092286+08:00","text":"臨時提案","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:02.392286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:34.678000+08:00","text":"保障國人飲食安全政府責無旁貸，此次中聯油脂事件，凸顯現行食品安全管理法規中廠商自主檢驗制度有其缺失，爰要求衛福部除將所有資料主動交給檢調調查，也應就市面上問題油品限期清查完成，精進中央及地方政府與食品業者的食安責任，若有失職人員應予以咎責。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:34.978000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:40.120857+08:00","text":"陳　瑩　　黃秀芳　　林月琴　　王正旭　　范　雲　　莊瑞雄　　楊　曜","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:40.420857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:43.849429+08:00","text":"請問本案行政單位有無意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:44.149429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:45.863714+08:00","text":"委員有無意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:46.163714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:49.592286+08:00","text":"請問本案行政單位有無意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:49.892286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:51.606571+08:00","text":"委員有無意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:51.906571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:02.192286+08:00","text":"第三行「自主檢驗制度」中間加「及通報」，也就是修正為「廠商自主檢驗及通報制度有其缺失」。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:02.492286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:05.635143+08:00","text":"請問行政機關有沒有意見？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:05.935143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:07.363714+08:00","text":"（無）沒有意見。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:07.663714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:08.663714+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:08.963714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:12.106571+08:00","text":"沒有異議的話就照案通過。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員瑩","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:12.406571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:13.406571+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:13.706571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:18.849429+08:00","text":"臨時提案全部處理完畢，現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:19.149429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:20.292286+08:00","text":"休息（11時28分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:20.592286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:22.306571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時38分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:22.606571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:24.320857+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:24.620857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:26.906571+08:00","text":"請林淑芬委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時15分）謝謝主席，我請最辛苦的部長。"],["主席：請石崇良部長。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有食藥署署長。"],["主席：請姜署長。"],["石部長崇良：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有幾個問題要請教，第一個就是我們現在在夜市、菜市場買用回鍋油在炸的雞腿等等，那些油回收之後的動向是去了哪裡？是怎麼回收的？是去做工業用，還是去做肥皂？"],["石部長崇良：是銷毀。這邊依規定是銷毀，就是這一批我們講的這些油，這些都比較……因為夜市用的這些炸油都是比較大容量的，所以這邊的都被我們要求要下架回收，回收之後才有一個處置的原則……"],["蘇委員清泉：不是，部長你再聽我講，我說的是，現在全臺灣夜市裡用的油、每天回收來的這種油都到了哪裡？"],["石部長崇良：你是說平常嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：對，平常。"],["石部長崇良：平常在用的油嗎？"],["蘇委員清泉：對，都到了哪裡？"],["石部長崇良：都交給環境部處理，它有一個再利用的循環。"],["蘇委員清泉：再利用是送到工業去還是送到哪裡去？因為上次食安出問題就是因為回收再製而產生了一大堆的問題，現在時空背景不一樣了，所以還是同樣會產生這些油，現在是怎麼做的？部長查得到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：就是平常、日常在用的油……"],["蘇委員清泉：包括全臺灣的夜市，這可不得了耶！還是說，那些回鍋的、重複用的、不能再用的這些……"],["石部長崇良：我們會再跟環境部了解一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：這種的會銷毀我是不怎麼信，應該會轉到工業或者是……"],["石部長崇良：那些不會銷毀，我說的是那些有問題的才是銷毀，但這些應該會循環……"],["蘇委員清泉：因為這樣所以後來食安法就修改成所有的油類都要從origin（原始）的……譬如說大豆油、葵花油、棕櫚油、菜籽油等等都要從原始的原料萃取出來，就像你的沙拉油就一定要從大豆榨出來。好啦！這次的問題就是原始的大豆在精煉過程中要加熱，這樣也是出事！","這兩天我請教了化學界的專家，包括馬里蘭的、密西根的，也有臺灣師大的，他們說有兩個狀況，一個是我們在加熱的過程中，用250℃到350℃在加熱，那些有機物會自己游離出來，然後苯跟苯會結合，所以這裡有5個苯，看起來這個C₂₀H₁₂如果有加上OH的話，它就是很穩定的，那個是沒有辦法從油上面再把它拿出來，那是拿不出來的，所以唯一只剩銷毀一途了。部長，從這個案子裡你可能也學到很多，我是覺得當醫生當到要搞這個，我都覺得好累。","針對這些東西，我就一直在想能不能從油裡面把這些污染物萃取出來？結果是沒辦法，所以唯一能做的就像你講的，就是銷毀而已。那銷毀是怎麼銷毀的？是拿去焚化爐燒掉嗎？是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：不能流入食物鏈中是確定的。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，不能。"],["石部長崇良：但是不是可以作為燃料，則是另外一個考慮，所以用作燃料也是一種考慮。"],["蘇委員清泉：就是轉作機油或是把它皂化作為工業使用？"],["石部長崇良：對，因為這次的油在供應的時候也會供應到塑膠製造，在塑膠製造的過程中也會用到大豆油。"],["蘇委員清泉：另外一個衛福部一直講是在加熱過程中、製造過程中自己產生了這些苯類的化合物，但是也有人懷疑是從剛剛我一開始提到的中聯油脂……中聯油脂這間公司是剛剛提到的那5間公司合資成立的，這5間……"],["石部長崇良：是3間啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：這幾間是它的投資者，所以是超複雜的，部長你也搞不清楚啦！無論如何，在製造的過程中是有污染的，有化學的專家認為原始的大豆在巴西就出問題了，因為那邊潮溼，又遇到雨季，考慮到豆子可能會濕掉，加上運送過程那麼久，所以會用高溫加熱。高溫加熱是燒什麼？燒油，用油燒進去，把黃豆烘乾就對了。我們烘稻穀也是用油的熱氣去烘的，因為稻穀有殼。有的是用煤炭燒，把熱氣吹進去，煤炭燃燒不完全，那些有機物就黏著在黃豆殼上面，這是有可能的，萃取的時候，熱氣讓有機物黏黃豆殼上面，所以這個可能性也很多。中聯現在改用巴西的黃豆，以前是美國的黃豆，這個也有可能。署長，你也要去查看看到底是不是中間的來源有問題。","再來，在煉油的過程中，為了要脫焦、脫色、脫酸、脫臭，還有加什麼東西嗎？還是只是用熱氣推出來而已？以前多氯聯苯是怎麼來的？多氯聯苯是管子要加熱，管子裡面是多氯聯苯，因為多氯聯苯是很穩定的，加到1000度都沒有問題，結果那個是管子破掉，造成多氯聯苯就滲到食用油裡面去，是這樣出事的，吃了大家都很慘，所以這是歷史一步一步走來的痛苦經驗。我要問你的是，脫焦、脫色、脫臭、脫酸這4個步驟是只有用加熱，還是有加添加劑？你們知道嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：是用正己烷在萃，另外就是脫臭的時候會加白土、抽真空，所以會變成是缺氧的狀態，特別在這個部分我們也在它的製程上面去……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以在缺氧的狀態下，這些有機物又自己合成，是不是這樣？是這樣來的嘛。"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：你到目前的了解……"],["姜署長至剛：對，就我目前了解，從前面的豆子，第二個是脫臭的過程跟脫色的過程當中，因為高溫加上低壓真空的狀態，都有可能讓它……理論上是製程會讓80%降下來，我們希望確定它的製程能夠改進，這也是我們叫它做修正的部分。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個我想比較重要，不然的話，將來層出不窮。部長，這比什麼都重要。","再來，第二輪這5家公司接收油之後，他們有沒有混油？因為我看他們的成品不一樣，他們有沒有混油？第二個，他們自己去抽驗，有的是合標的，有的是多2倍，有的多4倍，像跟你們通報的那家公司……陳飛龍……"],["石部長崇良：南僑。"],["蘇委員清泉：南僑這家公司就說是4倍。都是外送的，還是自己檢驗室做的？"],["石部長崇良：他們有自驗的檢驗室，也有外送。"],["蘇委員清泉：結果出來怎麼差那麼多，有的是合規，有的是1倍，有的是4倍，嚇死人，到底要相信哪一個？所以有的就沒有通報，有的有通報，是不是這樣？這件是不是這樣？"],["石部長崇良：這回驗出來的都有超標，但是沒通報，就是他們自主檢驗的部分有驗到超標，但是沒有馬上通報，沒有跟主管機關通報，而是跟他們的上游業者通報。"],["蘇委員清泉：上游就沒跟你們通報。"],["石部長崇良：上游也沒有馬上跟主管機關通報，自己又再驗一次，直到驗到後面真的是超標才通報，就已經是6月30日了。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以已經超過一個多月了？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以已經吃下去了。我要問一個更嚴肅的問題，一直的製程都是這樣，今天這一件出包了，如果沒有，平常查出多1倍、多2倍的Benzo[a]pyrene……中文是誰翻的，哪有這麼沒學問的，翻成這樣，誰讀得出來？全臺灣我看沒幾個人讀得出來這個名字。每次都用很艱深的中文，很奇怪。我的意思是，過程中如果都沒有驗出來，或是高一點點，或是這個東西本來就有在食用油裡面，部長，我們長期吃有沒有問題？吃完46小時、72小時會代謝掉，但是這樣長期會不會對肝臟、對腎臟有問題？它是一級致癌物，嚇死人，部長。"],["石部長崇良：對，所以我們在2017年訂出這個標準，之前也都沒有，這個標準也是2017年才訂出來的，2018年才開始驗這個東西。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你們現在用2.1 ppb……"],["石部長崇良：2.0 ppb。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果under這個之下就算OK，但是吃了還是有問題，要用我們強壯的器官把它代謝掉，是不是這樣？"],["石部長崇良：它也是會代謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：它是會代謝沒有錯，因為那個是滿穩定的化合物，如果它再加上兩個OHg的話，會跟DNA的雙股剛好都卡住，那是會引起突變的，所以這個是滿嚴重的事情。部長，要痛定思痛，怪東怪西沒什麼意思，但是一定要看要怎麼防範，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：對，我們一定會從這個經驗裡面去強化未來的管理。"],["蘇委員清泉：2017年之前沒有驗，2017年之前我們搞不好吃了30年了，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對，這個標準是2017年才出來的。"],["蘇委員清泉：有可能你吃了30年，我也吃了30年，我們都沒死就算阿彌陀佛了，是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：當然我們越健康越好，就儘量避免接觸。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，部長加油！"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。","現在處理新收臨時提案計有1案，請宣讀。","臨時提案","保障國人飲食安全政府責無旁貸，此次中聯油脂事件，凸顯現行食品安全管理法規中廠商自主檢驗制度有其缺失，爰要求衛福部除將所有資料主動交給檢調調查，也應就市面上問題油品限期清查完成，精進中央及地方政府與食品業者的食安責任，若有失職人員應予以咎責。","提案人：陳　瑩　　黃秀芳　　林月琴　　王正旭　　范　雲　　莊瑞雄　　楊　曜"],["主席：請問本案行政單位有無意見？委員有無意見？請問本案行政單位有無意見？委員有無意見？"],["陳委員瑩：第三行「自主檢驗制度」中間加「及通報」，也就是修正為「廠商自主檢驗及通報制度有其缺失」。"],["主席：請問行政機關有沒有意見？（無）沒有意見。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：沒有異議的話就照案通過。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：臨時提案全部處理完畢，現在休息10分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時28分）","繼續開會（11時38分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}