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一年才1.3%喔那麼疫情那三年半房價三年半漲了24.9%也就是一年大概7%可是來到新青安2023上路才一年啦房價就漲了12.3%就漲了12.3%這個指數"},{"start":139.352,"end":165.177,"text":"所以如果從2016年一年1.3%之後2020年一年7%一直到新青安推出馬上那一年是12.3%這就是新青安跟未來2.0新青安要去注意的要避免成為房價的阻燃劑"},{"start":166.482,"end":194.184,"text":"那麼當然現在這個新清安推出那我們有要求說那對這個2.0之前這1.0的新清安我們講到的很多說包括人頭戶包括售後的轉租甚至他售後是做營業行為的這樣子的情況你們確實有去查但是就是查"},{"start":201.986,"end":217.19,"text":"12.5萬戶12.5萬戶都是土營台營光是查他們兩家的而已喔12.5萬戶裡面啊你們說這個查到有問題的有追回利息補貼的有追回2億啦你們說追回2億1000萬可是"},{"start":222.984,"end":237.123,"text":"部長 如果嚴格把它篩選以後根據審計部查核的資料是事實上在新清安的部分你們只查回六千萬的利息啊"},{"start":238.41,"end":252.499,"text":"那其他的1億5的利息是舊的是112年前所發生的所以這變成混混混混混在一起你們給我們的報告竟然是說就超回2.1億"},{"start":254.961,"end":271.17,"text":"所以我認為實質上該是什麼時候查到的哪時候的哪一個階段的違規要分辨清楚我們才有辦法來查核說到底問題是出在哪裡不是這樣嗎然後你們說有查到2500戶的違規12.5萬戶只查到2500戶違規如果放款啦"},{"start":283.021,"end":299.632,"text":"就只有這2500戶違規那是還好喔還不至於太差可是我們從坊間得到的訊息以及從銀行界一些朋友告知我們的可能是不只這個金額那就當2500戶好了2500戶裡面其中啊有高達九成2299戶是違規出租"},{"start":311.977,"end":336.784,"text":"另外你說人頭戶的營業戶有197戶人頭戶說只抓到4戶啦但是部長你說人頭戶只有4戶那但是就查台銀跟義銀借款人沒有收入的學生借款人是沒有收入是學生的高達176件耶請問啊你說人頭戶是4件"},{"start":342.469,"end":370.036,"text":"那沒有收入的學生你要不要算人頭學生也來帶他並不是已經就業的青年或者要成家有要婚育需要的青年我們當初新清安這個借貸的優惠的目的是這樣啊那怎麼學生也算數"},{"start":372.079,"end":390.246,"text":"那他沒有收入 那這一定是贈與嘛 不是嗎那這是不是某個方面 某個方式 他們要逃避贈與稅或者用逃避其他的方式的稅捐所以這個部分有沒有再細查呢"},{"start":392.406,"end":396.191,"text":"我想逐一回答委員剛剛的一個質詢那當然在我們112年8月1號推出所謂清安2.0的時候那正好在房地產市場往上走的時候那剛剛您也提到這個房價上漲的情況"},{"start":408.207,"end":416.713,"text":"那我們也很快的發現這種情況以後就第一個我們就限制了所謂的一生只能貸一次也就是說不能就用清安貸了以後把它賣掉賺差價然後再一次的試用所以只能一生只能貸一次第二個我們要求他們在貸款的時候必須要提出自住的一個提付這個切結數要讓他知道你只能做自住使用而不能夠拿去出租那另外對於您剛剛提到的有關就是說"},{"start":436.167,"end":451.972,"text":"那個學生買他事實上沒有收入那我們貸款的對象只要成年然後他沒有其他的房子那有的我們也知道可能是父母出幫他付了一些頭付款或者是說幫他後面支付那這個時候銀行會要求提出連帶保證的一個要求只有要求提出連帶保證要求提出連帶保證部長我認為這一點我必須花點時間再跟你談我就不再公開執行跟你提"},{"start":464.275,"end":483.071,"text":"我就講你剛剛說的齁你說這個要自助我認為你們要加強自助的查核啦為什麼因為這100到115年2月就到今年的2月為止所查到的轉售戶啊高達2824件耶然後這裡面轉售戶裡面交易利得500萬以上的23件"},{"start":492.182,"end":517.508,"text":"交易利得100萬以上的1835件就是他轉售啊那這個所謂的轉售交易利得我覺得這個查核到的都還是低估我光是講500萬以上的就有這麼多件就有這麼多件那你覺得新清安貸款是不是應該要加強這個自住的查核"},{"start":518.328,"end":543.716,"text":"或者說失去意義啊我們拿全民的辛苦血汗錢拿來補貼本來是一番好意結果這他們是買來來轉售賺錢不是這樣嗎呃我想這個部分就是說青安市就說一聲帶一次你要珍惜這樣的一個呃政府的一個相關的一個呃美意那所以轉售付的話他因為房屋是他他就賣所以但自主的查核是從來沒有鬆懈我們會通過資料的對"},{"start":547.757,"end":565.691,"text":"要知道政府的美意 這些大家都高等教育的啦 那些都會說的啦就是審核最要緊啦 審核最要緊啦所以自住的審核是不會放鬆的 我們會還是繼續的追查那時間暫停 你請回 我請金管會彭主委請彭主委"},{"start":572.554,"end":588.783,"text":"文主委您應該知道最近股市大好這是敗高科技之勢這是很好這是很好這可能是未來一波新的工業革命這是好事可是如果說拿房貸"},{"start":590.137,"end":614.515,"text":"拿信貸 車貸 甚至股票直接貸款這所謂的四貸同堂 五貸同堂那都投入股市那這個就要慎重了我們現在已經有41.7萬人41.7萬人是貸房入股市貸房入股市有41.7萬人那我就察覺到"},{"start":615.896,"end":638.324,"text":"你的很多看法跟中央銀行楊總裁是不同的楊總裁是很擔心說信用過度擴張這個市場啊股市槓桿的擴大那市場反轉的時候萬一反轉那要那會怎麼樣那你是說如果這個是合理增加風險可控那這個你認為說這可能都是"},{"start":644.796,"end":667.157,"text":"也貸款來的不一定全部錢都流到股市而且你說沒有擔保的信用放款你有22倍薪資這個限制可是你們又加了一點你們又加了一點說不限於月收22倍的你們又加了這一點你說有多元收入"},{"start":668.393,"end":696.041,"text":"那就可以另外一個估算可以拉高就對可以提高那我現在就請問啊如果說融資股票去賺錢那這個算不算多元收入在你的定義說那就是多元收入那就是一直這樣循環喔融資去做股票之後賺了錢多元收入他就又可以增加信用額度又借更多"},{"start":697.722,"end":716.733,"text":"所以很可怕的事情發生了股票直接這個或者融資股票信貸房貸所以說世貸同堂所以楊總裁的擔憂似乎跟你截然不同那麼我們看得到這個"},{"start":719.69,"end":738.617,"text":"我們就講說針對這個貸款來做股票這個走勢確實是這樣我們就拿這個心理房屋他們研究的歷史數據裡面2023年的時候當時股票還在主體階段那每月增加的人數是994人但是2024年一路"},{"start":742.318,"end":747.78,"text":"破2萬點以後一路從每個月增加2341人2025年2114年每一個月喔今年的3、4月爆發性一個月增加2730人所以啊來到2026年4月底正式突破42萬人就是我剛剛講的42萬1000人"},{"start":768.528,"end":794.29,"text":"所以這一點我希望你能夠把楊總裁講的一些當然我不是說他講的就都一定百分之百都對但是中央銀行畢竟他們這70年來對我們國家金融的穩定他們很多看法其實是非常正確的那在你對他的看法有質疑有討論的時候我覺得還要再慎思我跟文講一句話"},{"start":795.031,"end":795.751,"text":"我們結束王世堅委員的持續"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:41.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.098000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請財政部莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.198000+08:00","text":"請莊部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.218000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.298000+08:00","text":"莊部長，辛苦了！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:19:43.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:20:28.950000+08:00","text":"總算你們在8月份要再推出再精進版的新青安2.0，當然這一次有做了很多改進，這是很好的，比方說，房屋總價上限3,500萬，年齡也確實實質限制了須50歲以下，甚至有80條款，這次新青安2.0版還增加了婚育宅的優惠，這非常地好，這都是正面的部分。","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:20:30.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:00.628000+08:00","text":"不過部長，我先從比較負面的講起，最近監察院有一份報告，認為財政部要再更努力，不要讓新青安成為房價的助燃器，他舉出了這幾個例子，我就先不提，我就光講這個大數字就好。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:02.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:21.180000+08:00","text":"從2016年到2020年，也就是說，發生COVID-19疫情的前四年，房價指數漲幅大概是5.4%，也就是平均一年1.3%，一年才1.3%喔！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:22.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:31.763000+08:00","text":"然後疫情那三年半，房價漲了24.9%，也就是一年大概7%。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:31.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:39.565000+08:00","text":"可是來到新青安2023年上路之後，才一年，房價就漲了12.3%。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:47.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:13.157000+08:00","text":"所以如果從2016年的一年1.3%、2020年的一年7%，一直到新青安推出馬上變成一年12.3%，這就是新青安跟未來新青安2.0要去注意的，要避免成為房價的助燃器。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:15.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:55.407000+08:00","text":"當然，現在這個新青安推出之後，你們有要求對於2.0之前的新青安1.0，我們講到的很多情況，包括人頭戶、售後的轉租，甚至售後他是做營業行為等，你們確實有去查，但是就是查到12.5萬戶，這12.5萬戶都是土銀、臺銀，光是查他們2家的而已喔！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:56.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:40.499000+08:00","text":"這12.5萬戶裡面，你們說查到有問題的，有追回利息補貼2億1,000萬，可是部長，如果把它嚴格篩選以後，根據審計部查核的資料，事實上在新青安的部分，你們只查回6,000萬的利息，其他1.5億的利息是舊的，是112年前所發生的，所以這變成都混在一起，你們給我們的報告竟然說，就查回2.1億。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:42.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:56.149000+08:00","text":"所以我認為實質上該是什麼時候查到的、是哪時候哪一個階段的違規，要分辨清楚，這樣我們才有辦法查核出到底問題是出在哪裡，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:56.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:25.690000+08:00","text":"然後你們說有查到2,500戶的違規，12.5萬戶中只查到2,500戶違規，如果放款就只有這2,500戶違規，那是還好、還不至於太差，可是我們從坊間得到的訊息以及從銀行界一些朋友告知我們的，可能不只這個金額。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:25.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:47.659000+08:00","text":"就當2,500戶好了，這2,500戶裡面，有高達九成、2,299戶是違規出租的，另外，營業戶有197戶，人頭戶說只抓到4戶啦！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:49.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:02.883000+08:00","text":"部長，你說人頭戶只有4戶，但是就查臺銀和一銀，借款人是沒有收入的學生的就高達176件！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:03.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:14.410000+08:00","text":"請問，你說人頭戶是4件，沒有收入的學生要不要算人頭？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:14.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:38.036000+08:00","text":"學生也來貸，他並不是已經就業的青年或是成家、有婚育需要的青年，當初新青安這個借貸優惠的目的是這樣，怎麼連學生也算數？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:40.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:44.501000+08:00","text":"他沒有收入，這一定是贈與嘛，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:44.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:58.226000+08:00","text":"這是不是某個方面、某個方式他們要逃避贈與稅，或者是要逃避其他方式的稅捐，所以這個部分有沒有再細查呢？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:00.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:22.111000+08:00","text":"我逐一回答委員剛剛的質詢，我們在112年8月1日推出青安2.0的時候，也正好是房地產市場在往上走的時候，剛剛您也提到有房價上漲的情況，我們也很快地發現這種情況以後，第一個，我們就限制了一生只能貸一次，也就是說，不能用青安貸了以後，就把它賣掉賺差價，然後再一次的適用，所以一生只能貸一次。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:22.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:24.233000+08:00","text":"第二個，我們要求他們在貸款的時候必須要提出自住的切結書，要讓他知道他只能做自住使用，而不能夠拿去出租。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:24.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:58.571000+08:00","text":"另外，對於您剛剛提到的學生買但他事實上沒有收入一事，我們貸款的對象只要是成年且沒有其他的房子，我們也知道有的可能是父母幫他付了一些頭付款，或者是幫他支付後面的款項，但這個時候銀行會提出連帶保證的要求，這個部分……","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:58.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:58.911000+08:00","text":"只有要求提出連帶保證？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:58.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:59.151000+08:00","text":"對，要求提出連帶保證，所以他的借款……","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:59.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:20.142000+08:00","text":"部長，關於這一點，我認為我必須花點時間再跟你談，我就不在公開質詢時跟你提，我就講你剛剛說的，你說這個要自住，我認為你們要加強自住的查核，為什麼？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:20.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:48.304000+08:00","text":"因為從100年到115（今）年2月為止所查到的轉售戶高達2,824件，其中交易利得500萬以上的有23件，交易利得100萬以上的有1,835件，就是他轉售了啊！","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:49.824000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:05.488000+08:00","text":"所謂的轉售交易利得，我覺得查核到的都還是低估，我光是講500萬以上的就有這麼多件，那你覺得新青安貸款是不是應該要加強自住的查核？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:06.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:07.588000+08:00","text":"否則就失去意義了啊！","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:08.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:19.372000+08:00","text":"我們拿全民的辛苦血汗錢去補貼，本來是一番好意，結果他們卻買來轉售賺錢，不是這樣嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:19.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:31.716000+08:00","text":"我想這個部分，新青安一生只能貸一次，他要珍惜政府這樣相關的美意，至於轉售戶的話，因為房屋是他的，不過自住的查核是從來沒有鬆懈過，我們會透過資料的比對……","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:35.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:41.181000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，要告知貸款戶要知道政府的美意，大家都是受過高等教育的，那些都是多講的啦！","quality":0.568},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:42.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:44.224000+08:00","text":"就是審核最要緊，好不好？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"莊部長翠雲","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:45.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:50.529000+08:00","text":"對，審核最要緊，所以自住的審核是不會放鬆的，我們還是會繼續地追查。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:51.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:53.151000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，你請回，我請金管會彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:53.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:53.671000+08:00","text":"請彭主委。","quality":1},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:53.671000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:01.875000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:01.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:08.859000+08:00","text":"彭主委，你應該知道最近股市大好是拜高科技之賜，這是很好！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:09.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:13.241000+08:00","text":"這可能是未來一波新的工業革命，這是好事！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:14.282000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:29.145000+08:00","text":"可是如果是拿房貸、信貸、車貸，甚至股票質借貸款，所謂的四貸同堂、五貸同堂，都投入股市的話，這個就要慎重了。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:30.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:23.085000+08:00","text":"現在已經有41.7萬人，也就是有41萬7,000人是貸房入股市，我就有察覺到你的很多看法跟中央銀行楊總裁是不同的，楊總裁很擔心信用過度擴張、股市槓桿擴大，萬一市場反轉會怎麼樣；你說這個是合理增加、風險可控，你認為貸款來的錢不一定全部都流到股市，而且你說沒有擔保的信用放款有22倍薪資的限制。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:23.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:41.655000+08:00","text":"可是你們又加了一點，說不限於月收的22倍，你們有加了這一點，說有多元收入就可以另外估算，可以拉高就對了，可以提高。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:42.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:49.777000+08:00","text":"我現在就請問，如果融資股票去賺錢，這個算不算多元收入？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:50.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:22.632000+08:00","text":"在你的定義，那就是多元收入，那就是一直循環，融資去做股票，只要賺了錢、有多元收入，他就可以增加信用額度又借更多，很可怕的事情發生了，股票質借或者融資股票、信貸、房貸，所以說「四貸同堂」，因此楊總裁的擔憂似乎跟你截然不同。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:27.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:55.760000+08:00","text":"我們就談貸款來做股票，這個走勢確實是這樣，就拿信義房屋研究的歷史數據，2023年當時股票還在築底階段，每月雙貸族增加的人數是994人，但是2024年破兩萬點以後，一路從每個月增加2,341人，到2025年每一個月增加2,114人，今年3、4月爆發性地一個月增加2,730人，到2026年4月底總人數正式突破42萬人，就是我剛剛講的42萬1,000人。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:16.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:34.243000+08:00","text":"針對這一點，我希望你能夠把楊總裁講的一些……當然我不是說他講的就一定百分之百都對，畢竟中央銀行這七十年來對我們國家金融的穩定，有很多看法其實是非常正確的。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:34.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:40.689000+08:00","text":"那在你對他的看法有質疑、有挑戰的時候，我覺得還要再慎思，好不好？是的。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:40.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:41.689000+08:00","text":"跟委員講一句話，我跟央行總裁有非常密切的溝通，這部分我們會來關注，其實我們的看法、原則是一樣的。","quality":0.163},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:41.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:42.689000+08:00","text":"後面有好多還沒來得及講，好多看法不一致……","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:42.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:43.689000+08:00","text":"我們會來注意這件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:43.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:44.689000+08:00","text":"沒關係，私底下，你們再多交流。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:44.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:45.689000+08:00","text":"我會另外約你……可以。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:45.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:46.689000+08:00","text":"你有很多看法跟他不一致，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"彭主任委員金隆","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:46.689000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:47.689000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:43.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:43.571000+08:00","text":"謝謝王世堅委員，王世堅委員質詢結束。","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:44.071000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:46.642429+08:00","text":"接下來請鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":958,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時19分）謝謝主席，我請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，辛苦了！總算你們在8月份要再推出再精進版的新青安2.0，當然這一次有做了很多改進，這是很好的，比方說，房屋總價上限3,500萬，年齡也確實實質限制了須50歲以下，甚至有80條款，這次新青安2.0版還增加了婚育宅的優惠，這非常地好，這都是正面的部分。不過部長，我先從比較負面的講起，最近監察院有一份報告，認為財政部要再更努力，不要讓新青安成為房價的助燃器，他舉出了這幾個例子，我就先不提，我就光講這個大數字就好。從2016年到2020年，也就是說，發生COVID-19疫情的前四年，房價指數漲幅大概是5.4%，也就是平均一年1.3%，一年才1.3%喔！然後疫情那三年半，房價漲了24.9%，也就是一年大概7%。可是來到新青安2023年上路之後，才一年，房價就漲了12.3%。所以如果從2016年的一年1.3%、2020年的一年7%，一直到新青安推出馬上變成一年12.3%，這就是新青安跟未來新青安2.0要去注意的，要避免成為房價的助燃器。","當然，現在這個新青安推出之後，你們有要求對於2.0之前的新青安1.0，我們講到的很多情況，包括人頭戶、售後的轉租，甚至售後他是做營業行為等，你們確實有去查，但是就是查到12.5萬戶，這12.5萬戶都是土銀、臺銀，光是查他們2家的而已喔！這12.5萬戶裡面，你們說查到有問題的，有追回利息補貼2億1,000萬，可是部長，如果把它嚴格篩選以後，根據審計部查核的資料，事實上在新青安的部分，你們只查回6,000萬的利息，其他1.5億的利息是舊的，是112年前所發生的，所以這變成都混在一起，你們給我們的報告竟然說，就查回2.1億。所以我認為實質上該是什麼時候查到的、是哪時候哪一個階段的違規，要分辨清楚，這樣我們才有辦法查核出到底問題是出在哪裡，不是這樣嗎？","然後你們說有查到2,500戶的違規，12.5萬戶中只查到2,500戶違規，如果放款就只有這2,500戶違規，那是還好、還不至於太差，可是我們從坊間得到的訊息以及從銀行界一些朋友告知我們的，可能不只這個金額。就當2,500戶好了，這2,500戶裡面，有高達九成、2,299戶是違規出租的，另外，營業戶有197戶，人頭戶說只抓到4戶啦！部長，你說人頭戶只有4戶，但是就查臺銀和一銀，借款人是沒有收入的學生的就高達176件！請問，你說人頭戶是4件，沒有收入的學生要不要算人頭？學生也來貸，他並不是已經就業的青年或是成家、有婚育需要的青年，當初新青安這個借貸優惠的目的是這樣，怎麼連學生也算數？他沒有收入，這一定是贈與嘛，不是嗎？這是不是某個方面、某個方式他們要逃避贈與稅，或者是要逃避其他方式的稅捐，所以這個部分有沒有再細查呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我逐一回答委員剛剛的質詢，我們在112年8月1日推出青安2.0的時候，也正好是房地產市場在往上走的時候，剛剛您也提到有房價上漲的情況，我們也很快地發現這種情況以後，第一個，我們就限制了一生只能貸一次，也就是說，不能用青安貸了以後，就把它賣掉賺差價，然後再一次的適用，所以一生只能貸一次。第二個，我們要求他們在貸款的時候必須要提出自住的切結書，要讓他知道他只能做自住使用，而不能夠拿去出租。另外，對於您剛剛提到的學生買但他事實上沒有收入一事，我們貸款的對象只要是成年且沒有其他的房子，我們也知道有的可能是父母幫他付了一些頭付款，或者是幫他支付後面的款項，但這個時候銀行會提出連帶保證的要求，這個部分……"],["王委員世堅：只有要求提出連帶保證？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，要求提出連帶保證，所以他的借款……"],["王委員世堅：部長，關於這一點，我認為我必須花點時間再跟你談，我就不在公開質詢時跟你提，我就講你剛剛說的，你說這個要自住，我認為你們要加強自住的查核，為什麼？因為從100年到115（今）年2月為止所查到的轉售戶高達2,824件，其中交易利得500萬以上的有23件，交易利得100萬以上的有1,835件，就是他轉售了啊！所謂的轉售交易利得，我覺得查核到的都還是低估，我光是講500萬以上的就有這麼多件，那你覺得新青安貸款是不是應該要加強自住的查核？否則就失去意義了啊！我們拿全民的辛苦血汗錢去補貼，本來是一番好意，結果他們卻買來轉售賺錢，不是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，新青安一生只能貸一次，他要珍惜政府這樣相關的美意，至於轉售戶的話，因為房屋是他的，不過自住的查核是從來沒有鬆懈過，我們會透過資料的比對……"],["王委員世堅：我跟你講，要告知貸款戶要知道政府的美意，大家都是受過高等教育的，那些都是多講的啦！就是審核最要緊，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，審核最要緊，所以自住的審核是不會放鬆的，我們還是會繼續地追查。"],["王委員世堅：時間暫停，你請回，我請金管會彭主委。"],["主席：請彭主委。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：彭主委，你應該知道最近股市大好是拜高科技之賜，這是很好！這可能是未來一波新的工業革命，這是好事！可是如果是拿房貸、信貸、車貸，甚至股票質借貸款，所謂的四貸同堂、五貸同堂，都投入股市的話，這個就要慎重了。現在已經有41.7萬人，也就是有41萬7,000人是貸房入股市，我就有察覺到你的很多看法跟中央銀行楊總裁是不同的，楊總裁很擔心信用過度擴張、股市槓桿擴大，萬一市場反轉會怎麼樣；你說這個是合理增加、風險可控，你認為貸款來的錢不一定全部都流到股市，而且你說沒有擔保的信用放款有22倍薪資的限制。可是你們又加了一點，說不限於月收的22倍，你們有加了這一點，說有多元收入就可以另外估算，可以拉高就對了，可以提高。我現在就請問，如果融資股票去賺錢，這個算不算多元收入？在你的定義，那就是多元收入，那就是一直循環，融資去做股票，只要賺了錢、有多元收入，他就可以增加信用額度又借更多，很可怕的事情發生了，股票質借或者融資股票、信貸、房貸，所以說「四貸同堂」，因此楊總裁的擔憂似乎跟你截然不同。","我們就談貸款來做股票，這個走勢確實是這樣，就拿信義房屋研究的歷史數據，2023年當時股票還在築底階段，每月雙貸族增加的人數是994人，但是2024年破兩萬點以後，一路從每個月增加2,341人，到2025年每一個月增加2,114人，今年3、4月爆發性地一個月增加2,730人，到2026年4月底總人數正式突破42萬人，就是我剛剛講的42萬1,000人。針對這一點，我希望你能夠把楊總裁講的一些……當然我不是說他講的就一定百分之百都對，畢竟中央銀行這七十年來對我們國家金融的穩定，有很多看法其實是非常正確的。那在你對他的看法有質疑、有挑戰的時候，我覺得還要再慎思，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是的。跟委員講一句話，我跟央行總裁有非常密切的溝通，這部分我們會來關注，其實我們的看法、原則是一樣的。"],["王委員世堅：後面有好多還沒來得及講，好多看法不一致……"],["彭主任委員金隆：我們會來注意這件事。"],["主席：沒關係，私底下，你們再多交流。"],["王委員世堅：我會另外約你……"],["彭主任委員金隆：可以。"],["王委員世堅：你有很多看法跟他不一致，好不好？"],["彭主任委員金隆：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員，王世堅委員質詢結束。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":526,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","劉書彬","李坤城","顏寬恒","賴惠員","陳玉珍","王世堅","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","林思銘","羅明才"],"page_start":471,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關財政部主管臺灣土地\n銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司（詢答）；二、審查中華民國115年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有\n限公司（詢答）；三、審查中華民國115年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分，有關\n金融監督管理委員會主管：（詢答）(一)特別收入基金─金融監督管理基金、(二)信託基金─保\n險業務發展基金","agenda_id":"1156102_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}