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侯執事長給您報告第一個我們復工站工的油品總共有29項那經過核對完之後確定品項及批號就是有其中的一項這個福壽的這個香油"},{"start":114.8,"end":121.243,"text":"福壽的香油然後來中聯中聯提供然後給福壽嘛然後福壽然後我們是採購了這個Phouse採購了104桶104桶對那我們現在在全面回收之後我們發覺已經有56桶被使用"},{"start":130.327,"end":145.078,"text":"已經有56桶被使用了所以大概就是大概就是我們買的有一半是回收掉了就是一半是差不多全部回收那回收完以後你吃掉的不能算全部回收啊"},{"start":145.598,"end":173.573,"text":"我的意思是說他的意思是說56桶被用對對對對對就是我們還能夠回收回去的大概就是佔4到5成左右嘛差不多是這樣子好那我想請問一下齁那這個104桶主要還是吃下肚的這個為主啦因為你已經把風險排除掉的話那當然就OK嘛但是因為剛剛已經看到大概有4成左右是已經吃下肚的那我想問一下喔這個油啊我們在"},{"start":174.894,"end":191.024,"text":"這個油我們有沒有去調查說它的分佈縣市的 它是平均的分佈還是有集中在一個影區報告委員有 我們現在查完北部跟南部的復工站有進這個油品中部及外離島都沒有OK 所以北部跟南部"},{"start":192.805,"end":215.747,"text":"總共有29個伙食團有採購29個伙食團?是那所以北部的話就是在北北、基桃這樣子都有是嗎?北部有5個單位有採購這個油了你可不可以把那個單位都能夠詳細給大家?沒問題,待會之後提供給我好,那你再提供給我,那細節的部分再提供給我因為這個數據我想是很重要,必須要揭露給大家的好,那但是呢?"},{"start":216.809,"end":244.771,"text":"我們要講就是因為你們在7月2號就開始做處置不過因為到請問一下你們現在這個下架期送驗是包含因為政策其實反反覆覆的包含那個20%以下的你們也是7月2號就已經全部處理了嗎就是說我們下架就是說下架的不是只有那一個批號的那一個而是下架它公告的這些"},{"start":246.574,"end":256.889,"text":"六個就是說這個有關這個廠商跟商品的這個史無一不管是不是同批號的都下架這樣子那你們是怎麼掌握的那個名單跟"},{"start":261.195,"end":279.31,"text":"就是按照最早食藥署公布的我們他只要公布的品項我們就下架然後去核對他後來確認的批號我們就知道所以我們沒有因為有沒有百分之二十的含量的這個事情有受到任何的影響是嗎沒有目前沒有那因為"},{"start":282.506,"end":311.463,"text":"好這樣我了解了因為這個既然我們已經是在這個北部跟南部我們未來會也會去求償嗎在這個部分我想這個部分我們就按照法律跟合約的規範來處理所以我們現在評估是怎麼樣會去求償嗎因為像有一些民眾他們可能有採購到相關的那現在各縣市政府他們也都開始就是說要求廠商你要有這個我推貨給你然後你的這個賠償嘛等等的那我們因為"},{"start":311.843,"end":333.416,"text":"也有就是除了我退而去的之外然後也有已經持下去的那我們未來在這部分的這個法律跟追償的處理我們有沒有做相關的對應跟思考了我們現在會來檢討一下相關的法律跟合約的規定像我們另外有福利處的部分他們有一些也就有退貨了福利處的部分可以再說明一下嗎"},{"start":333.996,"end":352.833,"text":"福利署的部分他也是在7月1號就配合食藥署跟那個將相關的商品下架那同時他有一個退貨的機制也就是說官兵或眷屬他們如果有去買的話那都可以辦理那福利署怎麼會沒有涉及到這個20%以下產品的因為這個20%是昨天才取消的規定啊"},{"start":355.133,"end":371.058,"text":"7月1號是先救油品的部分接下來有關都是根據食藥署的規範會再做所以你剛剛告訴我說20%的產品的這個部分沒有辦法復工站沒有復工站是ok的因為你們是採購油的源頭的部分去處理但是現在就是還有福利處的部分"},{"start":379.5,"end":386.983,"text":"所以可不可以針對福利處的部分再積極說明一下說我們針對福利處的就是這個20%的產品下架是從昨天開始處理的 是嗎跟委員說明 我是政戰局的副局長我們在7月1號依據衛福部所公告的所有的產品我們都先封存下架我們也提供所有的官兵跟眷屬去採購的人員去可以做退貨的機制"},{"start":408.993,"end":423.642,"text":"但是因為他的品項其實有調整嘛就是從本來就兩百多然後後面又到現在是三百多了嘛像有的產品我自己看就在民間的那本來前一天也沒出現今天出現就他每天是變動的嘛"},{"start":424.522,"end":453.073,"text":"他只要有公告的我們就是會下架所以你是按照他公告的時間點去做處理那就會有一部分應該是在昨天的時候才就是昨天因為這個20%的這個規定他就因為我們像因為你剛剛有講說在北部跟南部嘛可是像以我們台北市的規定其實就是不管你是不是20%的你只要是有牽涉到這個中聯油脂相關的產品都要下架"},{"start":453.393,"end":470.418,"text":"委員剛剛講的那個一個是護工沒有沒有我現在沒有在講護工護工我釐清了我們現在是在講福利處因為它是已經做好的產品嘛所以它裡面會有牽涉到那個是不是有百分之二十的這個問題嘛然後會牽涉到因為政策中間有做改變所以"},{"start":471.318,"end":497.136,"text":"昨天公布了一大批那所以就是說等於是比較新的然後這中間還有牽涉到像地方政府對這個事情態度其實跟中央是比較不一致就是地方政府的感受就是說今天我不管是不是你們當初講的20%那這個20%會否因為他自己有說法我們不用管他我只是說像以北部來講的話我們一開始就是強調說只要有牽涉到這個郵品相關的那全部都要下架"},{"start":497.796,"end":518.914,"text":"但是我要問的是說我們即便是在北部但是我們在福利處的部分也是按照這個中央的規定這個20%的是一直到昨天才啟動下架還是我們其實是先前就無論如何只要有碰到的就全部處理了我們從7月1號開始只要衛福部有公告的這些產品我們都下架再提供給已經採購的人員做退貨機制"},{"start":521.857,"end":537.41,"text":"不是啊,對啊我剛剛有聽懂了嘛我的意思是在針對那個就是因為他的因為我這邊再多描述一下好了因為這個是衛福部的這個規定所以我並不責怪你們因為是他規定不是很清楚他的公佈的"},{"start":538.351,"end":557.848,"text":"跟大家就是外界所公布的這個品項那基本上有一部分就是你們福利處才會碰到的這個我們供貨站是不會有那就是針對已經做好的這個商品那他是說如果裡面的含量沒有占油的含量沒有占到20%的話是可以不用下架的"},{"start":558.228,"end":577.884,"text":"那一直到昨天下午的時候才說只要有碰到的全部都要下架這是昨天的新的政策所以我要問的就是說我們福利處的部分是不是也是根據昨天才公布的這個新政策去做的處置我們只要是他有公告我們就全部下架"},{"start":579.295,"end":606.741,"text":"它有沒有不包含有沒有百分之二十的部分只要它是有公告給產品會不會下降你沒有認得我意思它就是百分之二十的它才有對外公佈啊所以我們沒有額外的機制就是完全是看他們的請說請說像委員報告昨天公告的二三二項我們都沒有進你們都沒有進這樣講就對了嘛因為也不見得你們都會有進貨這個就是要這就是要去查嘛所以說"},{"start":608.015,"end":626.048,"text":"好所以說這個部分的話那我希望後續能夠有相關的這個法律跟究責的規定喔那好那最後有一個小的就是關於小的你們三位可以先回去就是有關於這個教昭制度的部分啊那這邊也要跟部長澄清一下"},{"start":626.488,"end":646.193,"text":"就是教昭當然我是支持的改革後備制度增加教昭天數那也提升了這個教訓量能但是實際上我們遇到一個情況就是很多人跟我們反應人招進來了但是教室餐廳寢室都是不夠的你可以看一下這一個人家寫的"},{"start":647.153,"end":661.966,"text":"那我們看那個黑色重點就是說像這個有人就提到說呢他們教招的時候人太多教室坐不下分兩批上課然後呢還有就是可能他們使用的一些這個你看"},{"start":663.604,"end":688.739,"text":"裝備團亂然後集合以後又因為主觀有形成延後然後大家再回寢室所以吃飯教室甚至坐不下所有的人大家就拿著便當盒然後再回寢室吃飯這個是一個問題另外一個問題我一次講完再請這個部長說明一下另外他們在叫招的時候使用的是這個"},{"start":691.327,"end":718.544,"text":"6K1那這個我不太確定說現在我們部隊都用TGO1了那後備是不是用6K2是用6K1的原因是什麼所以說是不是因為時間不太充足是不是可以簡要說明一下在我們提升較高量能的同時那場地的不夠不充足還有我們的設備不夠先進那這樣的狀況我們打算如何處理"},{"start":720.187,"end":738.401,"text":"如果是部隊的話應該都是在戰術位置來進行教召所以有關這個講教室這個是哪個單位的教召這個部分我們是不是能夠再了解一下那至於這個他在中松植部5月9號到22號14天的"},{"start":741.108,"end":766.472,"text":"那這個部分可能我們再了解一下這個既然是屬於松子部那松子部的是什麼單位來做這個教招因為你原則上你提升教招的人次那你原本空間就是有可能會不夠大你的量能提高了嘛但是場地沒有變多啊所以你不夠就是在他這個陳情的人次他是松子部但是他不見得說以後只會發生在松子部你可能要全面一點看"},{"start":769.482,"end":780.477,"text":"對,如果委員講說這個單位是在松子部的話,那我想我們要下去了解一下松子部的那個教召的那個單位到底是做什麼樣的教召,這個可能要了解"},{"start":782.996,"end":804.899,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們會下去再檢討招援的部分那一天確實是有些混亂的狀況那這個部分我們下去會再檢討因為我時間不夠了我在這邊也是強調就是說我只是舉這個當案例因為有具體的陳情項目跟比較具體的事件跟說明但是既然我們提高了這整體的招訊的量能"},{"start":805.439,"end":832.024,"text":"那我們就可能碰到會有教室或是一些場地不夠的問題然後還有設備的部分那如果說我們還是用很老舊的這個設備那到底能不能符合我們戰時的需求這點可能也要去做考量我們最後就想回覆空軍一般的教召他不像陸軍陸軍都是在做這些部隊的一個教召空軍的部分都是高震能力所以他會採教召的這個單位的性質我們可能要"},{"start":832.924,"end":836.988,"text":"因為你們在第四天訓練的時候就有打靶所以你打靶的時候整個營都拉到宜蘭之後才發現說我們根本沒帶彈夾"},{"start":855.407,"end":877.209,"text":"各位委員報告 這個就是剛剛跟您報告的那個管理上確實有些混亂 我們在檢討因為早上去的人打完靶了 他把所有裝備帶回來那他應該把彈匣留在原地 結果他把彈匣帶回來下午去的人也沒確實的清查 結果沒有帶彈匣因為彈匣應該是留在原地 所以說造成了那一批受影響的人沒有打到靶 這個我們有檢討了"},{"start":879.632,"end":898.797,"text":"那因為時間的關係我最後簡單做一個結論就是說這是一個案例然後呢有具體的澄清但是我們也不是只要做一個空軍去檢討而是我們是不是開始做這個增加量的教教之後所有可能會發生的一些系統性上的問題都一併的去做一個盤整好不好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:34.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:35.479000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請顧立雄部長。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:35.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:35.660000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:35.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:44.659000+08:00","text":"徐委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:44.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:21:44.899000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:21:45.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:05.775000+08:00","text":"今天我們在談國軍人力資源的政策，當然民以食為天，所以我們也很關心軍人同袍的飲食方面，因為我們軍隊是一起作息、一起吃飯，所以大家的食安問題是我們非常關心的。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:07.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:30.368000+08:00","text":"現在大家很重視食品的安全，在中聯油脂的大豆沙拉油爆出一級致癌物含量超標之後，國軍也受到波及，國防部在7月4號有兩點簡短的回應，第一個，已於7月2號要求副供中心下架以及送驗；第二個是國軍各單位均已停止使用。","quality":0.758},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:31.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:45.905000+08:00","text":"我要先問的事情是，目前各單位伙房的油品採購，應該就是由副供中心統一辦理採購契約，再依照北、中、南、外島等等的地區物流配到各營區。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:46.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:22:51.334000+08:00","text":"第一個問題是，我們所採購的油品，目前簽約的品牌有幾種？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:22:52.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:11.513000+08:00","text":"目前有出事的包含中聯、福壽、泰山等等，我們目前掌握採購的跟中聯油脂提供的，目前已經公布有含致癌風險的油品量有多大？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:13.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:14.592000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是後次室次長跟您報告。","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:15.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:24.939000+08:00","text":"第一個，我們副供站供的油品總共有29項，經過核對完之後，確定品項及批號，就是有其中的一項，即福壽的香油。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:27.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:28.701000+08:00","text":"福壽的香油？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:28.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:29.721000+08:00","text":"對，福壽健味香油。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:29.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:30.501000+08:00","text":"中聯提供，然後給福壽，你們再……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:31.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:32.902000+08:00","text":"對，這個批號我們是採購了104桶。104桶？對。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:32.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:34.223000+08:00","text":"在全面回收之後，我們發覺已經有56桶被使用。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:43.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:45.489000+08:00","text":"已經有56桶被使用了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:45.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:47.790000+08:00","text":"對，剩下48桶是新的。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:47.790000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:52.914000+08:00","text":"大概就是我們買的有一半是回收掉了，差不多……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:53.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:55.156000+08:00","text":"全部回收，回收完以後發覺56桶已經用了。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:56.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:23:57.858000+08:00","text":"吃掉的不能算全部回收。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:23:58.598000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:01.560000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:01.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:02.400000+08:00","text":"他的意思是說56桶被用了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:02.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:07.543000+08:00","text":"對、對、對，就是我們還能夠回收回去的，大概就是占四到五成左右，是這樣子？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:07.543000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:08.864000+08:00","text":"對，差不多。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:08.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:29.455000+08:00","text":"我想請問一下，關於這104桶，主要還是吃下肚的為主，因為你已經把風險排除掉的話，那當然就OK，但是因為剛剛已經看到，大概有4成左右是已經吃下肚的，我想問一下，關於這個油，我們有沒有去調查它的分布？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:32.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:33.257000+08:00","text":"它是平均的分布？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:33.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:35.899000+08:00","text":"還是有集中在一個營區？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:35.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:42.223000+08:00","text":"報告委員，有，我們現在查完，北部跟南部的副供站有進這個油品，中部及外離島都沒有。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:42.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:44.004000+08:00","text":"OK，所以是北部跟南部。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:45.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:48.888000+08:00","text":"總共有29個伙食團有採購。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:48.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:49.709000+08:00","text":"29個伙食團？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:50.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:54.053000+08:00","text":"所以北部的話就是在北北基桃都有，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:54.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:55.294000+08:00","text":"北部有5個單位有採購這個油。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:55.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:58.538000+08:00","text":"你可不可以把那些單位都詳述給大家？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:24:58.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:24:59.899000+08:00","text":"沒問題，下去之後提供給委員。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:00.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:03.562000+08:00","text":"好，那你細節的部分再提供給我。是的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:04.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:06.986000+08:00","text":"這個數據我想是很重要的，必須要揭露給大家。是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:08.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:29.385000+08:00","text":"但是我們要講，因為你們在7月2號就開始做處置，不過，請問一下，你們現在下架及送驗是包含……因為政策其實是反反覆覆的，包含那個20%以下的，你們也是7月2號就已經全部處理了嗎？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:30.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:48.727000+08:00","text":"我們下架的不是只有那一個批號，而是下架他公告的6個……有關這個廠商跟商品，不管是不是同批號的都下架。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:49.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:49.869000+08:00","text":"那你們是怎麼掌握那個名單跟品項？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:54.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:55.136000+08:00","text":"就是按照……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:25:55.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:25:59.219000+08:00","text":"只要食藥署公布的品項，我們就下架……OK。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:00.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:02.942000+08:00","text":"再去核對他後來確認的批號，我們就知道最後哪個批號是符合的。","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:03.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:10.728000+08:00","text":"好，所以你們沒有因為有沒有20%含量的這個事情受到任何的影響，是嗎？沒有？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"李次長鳳翔","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:11.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:11.809000+08:00","text":"報告，目前沒有。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:15.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:16.407000+08:00","text":"好，這樣我了解了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:17.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:24.391000+08:00","text":"既然你們在北部和南部的已經有採購，未來你們也會去求償嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:24.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:24.851000+08:00","text":"在這個部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:26.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:28.454000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們就按照法律和合約的規範來處理。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:29.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:31.155000+08:00","text":"所以你們現在評估是怎麼樣？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:31.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:31.916000+08:00","text":"會去求償嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:31.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:55.389000+08:00","text":"因為有一些民眾採購到相關的，現在各縣市政府也都開始要求廠商要接受退貨，並提出賠償等等，除了退回去的之外，也有已經吃下去的，未來在這個部分的法律和追償的處理，你們有沒有做相關的對應及思考了？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:26:55.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:26:59.051000+08:00","text":"我們現在會來檢討一下相關的法令和合約的規定……好……","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:00.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:04.034000+08:00","text":"另外，我們有福利處的部分，他們有一些已經退貨了。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:04.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:06.416000+08:00","text":"福利處的部分可以再說明一下嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:06.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:19.067000+08:00","text":"福利處的部分也是在7月1日就配合食藥署將相關油品下架，同時他有一個退貨機制，也就是官兵或眷屬如果有去買的話，都可以辦理退換貨的服務。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:19.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:22.590000+08:00","text":"福利處怎麼會沒有涉及到這個20%以下的產品呢？","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:22.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:25.672000+08:00","text":"因為這個20%是昨天才取消的規定，就是下架這件事……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:28.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:30.474000+08:00","text":"沒有，7月1日是先就油品的部分……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:30.474000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:31.474000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:31.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:35.595000+08:00","text":"接下來都是根據食藥署的規範會再做……","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:36.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:40.057000+08:00","text":"可是你剛剛告訴我20%的這個部分沒有……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:40.057000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:41.057000+08:00","text":"那個是副供站。","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:41.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:56.242000+08:00","text":"副供站沒有，好，我們釐清一下，副供站是OK的，因為你們是採購油的源頭部分去處理，但是現在還有福利處的部分，所以可不可以針對福利處的部分再積極說明，20%以下的產品下架是從昨天開始處理的，是嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"胡副局長瑞訓","start":"2026-07-08T11:27:56.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:27:59.963000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我是政戰局副局長，我們在7月1日依據衛福部所公告的所有產品都先封存下架，也提供所有官兵和眷屬、採購的人員可以做退貨機制，但是目前為止總共……","quality":0.851},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:21.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:28.897000+08:00","text":"是，但是因為他的品項其實有調整，就是從本來兩百多，後面又調整，到現在是三百多了……對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:29.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:36.501000+08:00","text":"像有的產品，我自己去看，在民間的，本來前一天沒出現，今天出現，就是它每天是變動的。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"胡副局長瑞訓","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:37.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:39.563000+08:00","text":"他只要有公告的，我們就會下架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:39.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:42.664000+08:00","text":"所以你是按照他公告的時間點去做處理……是。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:43.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:06.053000+08:00","text":"那就會有一部分應該是昨天才處理，因為這個20%的規定是昨天才取消，你剛剛有講，在北部和南部的，可是像臺北市的規定是不管是不是20%，只要有牽涉到中聯油脂的相關產品，都應該要下架……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:06.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:08.134000+08:00","text":"委員剛剛講的，一個是副供站……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:09.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:12.815000+08:00","text":"沒有，我現在沒有在講副供站，副供站我釐清了，我們現在是在講福利處……","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:12.815000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:13.815000+08:00","text":"現在講福利處，福利處……","quality":0},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:12.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:05.849000+08:00","text":"對，因為他的是已經做好的產品，所以裡面會有牽涉到是不是有20%的這個問題，因為政策中間有做改變，昨天公布的一大批等於是比較新的，這中間還有牽涉到地方政府對這個事情的態度與中央是比較不一致的，地方政府的感受是今天不管是不是中央當初講的20%，這個20%衛福部自己有說法，我們不用管他，我只是說，以北部來講，一開始就強調，只要有牽涉到中聯油品相關的，全部都要下架，但是我要問的是即便是在北部，我們福利處也是按照中央的規定，所以這個20%以下的是一直到昨天才啟動下架，還是先前無論如何只要有碰到的，就全部處理了？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"胡副局長瑞訓","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:06.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:11.894000+08:00","text":"我們從7月1日開始，只要衛福部有公告的產品，我們都下架，再提供給已經採購的人員做退貨機制……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:15.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:16.178000+08:00","text":"對，我剛剛有聽懂了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:20.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:29.009000+08:00","text":"我這邊再多描述一下好了，因為這是衛福部的規定，所以我並不責怪你們，因為是他規定得不是很清楚。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:29.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:57.473000+08:00","text":"他對外界所公布的品項，基本上，有一部分是福利處才會碰到的，供貨站是不會有，就是針對已經做好的商品，他說如果裡面油的含量沒有占到20%的話，是可以不用下架的，一直到昨天下午才說，只要有碰到的，全部都要下架。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:57.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:08.582000+08:00","text":"這是昨天的新政策，所以我要問的就是福利處的部分是不是也是根據昨天才公布的這個新政策去做處置？","quality":1},{"speaker":"胡副局長瑞訓","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:09.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:16.296000+08:00","text":"只要是他有公告的，我們都全部下架，不包含有沒有20%的部分，只要他有公告的產品，我們就下架。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:16.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:28.518000+08:00","text":"不是，你沒有聽懂我的意思，他就是20%的才有對外公布，你們沒有額外的機制，就是完全看他們的……請說。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"周處長長佑","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:28.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:32.859000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，昨天公告的232項，我們都沒有進。以上。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:33.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:38.601000+08:00","text":"我們都沒有進，這樣講就對了，因為也不見得我們都會有進貨，這就是要去查。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:41.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:46.979000+08:00","text":"好，所以這個部分，我希望後續能夠有相關的法律及究責的規定。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:48.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:55.465000+08:00","text":"最後有一個小的議題，你們三位可以先回去，有關於教召制度的部分。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:56.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:16.712000+08:00","text":"這邊要跟部長陳情一下，教召當然我是支持的，改革後備制度、增加教召天數，也提升了召訓量能，但是實際上我們遇到一個情況，很多人跟我們反映，人招進來了，但是教室、餐廳、寢室都是不夠的。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:16.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:19.173000+08:00","text":"你可以看一下人家寫的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:23.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:51.193000+08:00","text":"有人就提到，他們教召的時候，人太多，教室坐不下，分兩批上課，還有他們使用的裝備一團亂，集合以後，又因為主官有行程，延後開訓，大家再回寢室，吃飯教室甚至坐不下所有人，大家就拿著便當盒再回寢室吃飯。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:51.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:52.994000+08:00","text":"這是一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:52.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:57.116000+08:00","text":"另外一個問題，我一次講完，再請部長說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:58.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:04.327000+08:00","text":"另外，他們在教召的時候，使用的是T65K1。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:06.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:15.333000+08:00","text":"我不太確定現在我們部隊都用T91了，後備不是用T65K2，用T65K1的原因是什麼？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:16.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:31.524000+08:00","text":"因為時間不太充足，是不是可以簡要說明一下，在我們提升教召量能的同時，場地不充足，還有設備不夠先進，這樣的狀況，你們打算如何處理？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:33.187000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:46.518000+08:00","text":"如果是部隊的話，應該都是在戰術位置來進行教召，所以這個講的教室是哪個單位的教召，我們是不是能夠再了解一下？至於……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:47.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:51.381000+08:00","text":"他在松指部，5月9日到22日，是14天的。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:54.509000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:01.495000+08:00","text":"這個部分，可能我們再了解一下，既然是屬於松指部，是松指部的什麼單位來做這個教召……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:01.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:22.482000+08:00","text":"因為我們提升教召人次，原則上，原本的空間區就是有可能會不夠的，因為量能提高了，但是場地沒有變多，所以不夠，就是再補……這個陳情的人是在松指部，但是這個事情不見得以後只會發生在松指部，你們可能要全面一點看。對。","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:23.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:32.315000+08:00","text":"委員講的，這個單位是在松指部的話，我們要下去了解一下松指部的那個單位到底是做什麼樣的教召。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:32.315000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:35.996000+08:00","text":"看空軍是不是能夠說明？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:35.996000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:45.045000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個部分，我們會下去再檢討，召員的部分，那一天確實是有些混亂的狀況，我們下去會再檢討。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:45.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:11.001000+08:00","text":"好，因為我時間不夠了，我在這邊也強調，我只是舉這個當案例，因為有具體的陳情項目和比較具體的事件及說明，但是既然我們提高了整體的召訓量能，有可能會碰到教室或是一些場地不夠的問題，還有設備的部分，如果我們還是用很老舊的設備，到底能不能符合戰時的需求？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:11.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:12.722000+08:00","text":"這點可能也要去考量。","quality":1},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:13.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:13.702000+08:00","text":"最後請統整回復。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:14.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:24.384000+08:00","text":"一般空軍的教召不像陸軍，陸軍都是在做部隊的教召，空軍的部分都是高專能力，所以他會採教召這個單位的性質，這可能是警衛這一類的……","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:24.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:25.384000+08:00","text":"沒有，他在第四天……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:25.384000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:26.384000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，委員既然有提出來，我們再下去了解一下。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:26.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:29.988000+08:00","text":"就是他在第四天訓練的時候有打靶，打靶的時候，整個營都拉到宜蘭之後，才發現根本沒帶彈匣。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:48.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:10.189000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個就是剛剛跟您報告的，管理上確實有些混亂，我們再檢討，因為早上去的人打完靶了，他把所有裝備帶回來，但他應該把彈匣留在原地，結果他把彈匣帶回來，下午去的人也沒確實清查，結果沒有帶彈匣，因為彈匣應該要留在原地，所以造成那一批受影響的人沒有打到靶，這個我們有檢討了。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"徐委員巧芯","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:12.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:31.797000+08:00","text":"因為時間的關係，我最後簡單做一個結論，這是一個案例，有具體的陳情，但是我們也不是只要求空軍去檢討，而是我們開始做增加量能教召之後，所有可能會發生的一些系統性上的問題都應該一併去做盤整，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:32.297000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:34.297000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員指教。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李參謀長慶然","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:34.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:36.311286+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:36.611286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:40.325571+08:00","text":"接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":490,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時21分）謝謝主席，有請顧立雄部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天我們在談國軍人力資源的政策，當然民以食為天，所以我們也很關心軍人同袍的飲食方面，因為我們軍隊是一起作息、一起吃飯，所以大家的食安問題是我們非常關心的。現在大家很重視食品的安全，在中聯油脂的大豆沙拉油爆出一級致癌物含量超標之後，國軍也受到波及，國防部在7月4號有兩點簡短的回應，第一個，已於7月2號要求副供中心下架以及送驗；第二個是國軍各單位均已停止使用。我要先問的事情是，目前各單位伙房的油品採購，應該就是由副供中心統一辦理採購契約，再依照北、中、南、外島等等的地區物流配到各營區。第一個問題是，我們所採購的油品，目前簽約的品牌有幾種？目前有出事的包含中聯、福壽、泰山等等，我們目前掌握採購的跟中聯油脂提供的，目前已經公布有含致癌風險的油品量有多大？"],["李次長鳳翔：報告委員，我是後次室次長跟您報告。第一個，我們副供站供的油品總共有29項，經過核對完之後，確定品項及批號，就是有其中的一項，即福壽的香油。"],["徐委員巧芯：福壽的香油？"],["李次長鳳翔：對，福壽健味香油。"],["徐委員巧芯：中聯提供，然後給福壽，你們再……"],["李次長鳳翔：對，這個批號我們是採購了104桶。"],["徐委員巧芯：104桶？"],["李次長鳳翔：對。在全面回收之後，我們發覺已經有56桶被使用。"],["徐委員巧芯：已經有56桶被使用了？"],["李次長鳳翔：對，剩下48桶是新的。"],["徐委員巧芯：大概就是我們買的有一半是回收掉了，差不多……"],["李次長鳳翔：全部回收，回收完以後發覺56桶已經用了。"],["徐委員巧芯：吃掉的不能算全部回收。我的意思是說……"],["顧部長立雄：他的意思是說56桶被用了。"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對、對，就是我們還能夠回收回去的，大概就是占四到五成左右，是這樣子？"],["李次長鳳翔：對，差不多。"],["徐委員巧芯：我想請問一下，關於這104桶，主要還是吃下肚的為主，因為你已經把風險排除掉的話，那當然就OK，但是因為剛剛已經看到，大概有4成左右是已經吃下肚的，我想問一下，關於這個油，我們有沒有去調查它的分布？它是平均的分布？還是有集中在一個營區？"],["李次長鳳翔：報告委員，有，我們現在查完，北部跟南部的副供站有進這個油品，中部及外離島都沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以是北部跟南部。"],["李次長鳳翔：總共有29個伙食團有採購。"],["徐委員巧芯：29個伙食團？"],["李次長鳳翔：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以北部的話就是在北北基桃都有，是嗎？"],["李次長鳳翔：北部有5個單位有採購這個油。"],["徐委員巧芯：你可不可以把那些單位都詳述給大家？"],["李次長鳳翔：沒問題，下去之後提供給委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那你細節的部分再提供給我。"],["李次長鳳翔：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個數據我想是很重要的，必須要揭露給大家。"],["李次長鳳翔：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是我們要講，因為你們在7月2號就開始做處置，不過，請問一下，你們現在下架及送驗是包含……因為政策其實是反反覆覆的，包含那個20%以下的，你們也是7月2號就已經全部處理了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們下架的不是只有那一個批號，而是下架他公告的6個……有關這個廠商跟商品，不管是不是同批號的都下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們是怎麼掌握那個名單跟品項？"],["顧部長立雄：就是按照……"],["李次長鳳翔：只要食藥署公布的品項，我們就下架……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。"],["李次長鳳翔：再去核對他後來確認的批號，我們就知道最後哪個批號是符合的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以你們沒有因為有沒有20%含量的這個事情受到任何的影響，是嗎？沒有？"],["李次長鳳翔：報告，目前沒有。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，這樣我了解了。既然你們在北部和南部的已經有採購，未來你們也會去求償嗎？在這個部分。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分，我們就按照法律和合約的規範來處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們現在評估是怎麼樣？會去求償嗎？因為有一些民眾採購到相關的，現在各縣市政府也都開始要求廠商要接受退貨，並提出賠償等等，除了退回去的之外，也有已經吃下去的，未來在這個部分的法律和追償的處理，你們有沒有做相關的對應及思考了？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在會來檢討一下相關的法令和合約的規定……"],["徐委員巧芯：好……"],["顧部長立雄：另外，我們有福利處的部分，他們有一些已經退貨了。"],["徐委員巧芯：福利處的部分可以再說明一下嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：福利處的部分也是在7月1日就配合食藥署將相關油品下架，同時他有一個退貨機制，也就是官兵或眷屬如果有去買的話，都可以辦理退換貨的服務。"],["徐委員巧芯：福利處怎麼會沒有涉及到這個20%以下的產品呢？因為這個20%是昨天才取消的規定，就是下架這件事……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，7月1日是先就油品的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：對、對、對。"],["顧部長立雄：接下來都是根據食藥署的規範會再做……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是你剛剛告訴我20%的這個部分沒有……"],["顧部長立雄：那個是副供站。"],["徐委員巧芯：副供站沒有，好，我們釐清一下，副供站是OK的，因為你們是採購油的源頭部分去處理，但是現在還有福利處的部分，所以可不可以針對福利處的部分再積極說明，20%以下的產品下架是從昨天開始處理的，是嗎？"],["胡副局長瑞訓：跟委員說明，我是政戰局副局長，我們在7月1日依據衛福部所公告的所有產品都先封存下架，也提供所有官兵和眷屬、採購的人員可以做退貨機制，但是目前為止總共……"],["徐委員巧芯：是，但是因為他的品項其實有調整，就是從本來兩百多，後面又調整，到現在是三百多了……"],["胡副局長瑞訓：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：像有的產品，我自己去看，在民間的，本來前一天沒出現，今天出現，就是它每天是變動的。"],["胡副局長瑞訓：他只要有公告的，我們就會下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你是按照他公告的時間點去做處理……"],["胡副局長瑞訓：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：那就會有一部分應該是昨天才處理，因為這個20%的規定是昨天才取消，你剛剛有講，在北部和南部的，可是像臺北市的規定是不管是不是20%，只要有牽涉到中聯油脂的相關產品，都應該要下架……"],["顧部長立雄：委員剛剛講的，一個是副供站……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，我現在沒有在講副供站，副供站我釐清了，我們現在是在講福利處……"],["顧部長立雄：現在講福利處，福利處……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，因為他的是已經做好的產品，所以裡面會有牽涉到是不是有20%的這個問題，因為政策中間有做改變，昨天公布的一大批等於是比較新的，這中間還有牽涉到地方政府對這個事情的態度與中央是比較不一致的，地方政府的感受是今天不管是不是中央當初講的20%，這個20%衛福部自己有說法，我們不用管他，我只是說，以北部來講，一開始就強調，只要有牽涉到中聯油品相關的，全部都要下架，但是我要問的是即便是在北部，我們福利處也是按照中央的規定，所以這個20%以下的是一直到昨天才啟動下架，還是先前無論如何只要有碰到的，就全部處理了？"],["胡副局長瑞訓：我們從7月1日開始，只要衛福部有公告的產品，我們都下架，再提供給已經採購的人員做退貨機制……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我剛剛有聽懂了。我這邊再多描述一下好了，因為這是衛福部的規定，所以我並不責怪你們，因為是他規定得不是很清楚。他對外界所公布的品項，基本上，有一部分是福利處才會碰到的，供貨站是不會有，就是針對已經做好的商品，他說如果裡面油的含量沒有占到20%的話，是可以不用下架的，一直到昨天下午才說，只要有碰到的，全部都要下架。這是昨天的新政策，所以我要問的就是福利處的部分是不是也是根據昨天才公布的這個新政策去做處置？"],["胡副局長瑞訓：只要是他有公告的，我們都全部下架，不包含有沒有20%的部分，只要他有公告的產品，我們就下架。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是，你沒有聽懂我的意思，他就是20%的才有對外公布，你們沒有額外的機制，就是完全看他們的……請說。"],["周處長長佑：向委員報告，昨天公告的232項，我們都沒有進。以上。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們都沒有進，這樣講就對了，因為也不見得我們都會有進貨，這就是要去查。好，所以這個部分，我希望後續能夠有相關的法律及究責的規定。","最後有一個小的議題，你們三位可以先回去，有關於教召制度的部分。這邊要跟部長陳情一下，教召當然我是支持的，改革後備制度、增加教召天數，也提升了召訓量能，但是實際上我們遇到一個情況，很多人跟我們反映，人招進來了，但是教室、餐廳、寢室都是不夠的。你可以看一下人家寫的。有人就提到，他們教召的時候，人太多，教室坐不下，分兩批上課，還有他們使用的裝備一團亂，集合以後，又因為主官有行程，延後開訓，大家再回寢室，吃飯教室甚至坐不下所有人，大家就拿著便當盒再回寢室吃飯。這是一個問題。另外一個問題，我一次講完，再請部長說明。","另外，他們在教召的時候，使用的是T65K1。我不太確定現在我們部隊都用T91了，後備不是用T65K2，用T65K1的原因是什麼？因為時間不太充足，是不是可以簡要說明一下，在我們提升教召量能的同時，場地不充足，還有設備不夠先進，這樣的狀況，你們打算如何處理？"],["顧部長立雄：如果是部隊的話，應該都是在戰術位置來進行教召，所以這個講的教室是哪個單位的教召，我們是不是能夠再了解一下？至於……"],["徐委員巧芯：他在松指部，5月9日到22日，是14天的。"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分，可能我們再了解一下，既然是屬於松指部，是松指部的什麼單位來做這個教召……"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我們提升教召人次，原則上，原本的空間區就是有可能會不夠的，因為量能提高了，但是場地沒有變多，所以不夠，就是再補……這個陳情的人是在松指部，但是這個事情不見得以後只會發生在松指部，你們可能要全面一點看。"],["顧部長立雄：對。委員講的，這個單位是在松指部的話，我們要下去了解一下松指部的那個單位到底是做什麼樣的教召。看空軍是不是能夠說明？"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，這個部分，我們會下去再檢討，召員的部分，那一天確實是有些混亂的狀況，我們下去會再檢討。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，因為我時間不夠了，我在這邊也強調，我只是舉這個當案例，因為有具體的陳情項目和比較具體的事件及說明，但是既然我們提高了整體的召訓量能，有可能會碰到教室或是一些場地不夠的問題，還有設備的部分，如果我們還是用很老舊的設備，到底能不能符合戰時的需求？這點可能也要去考量。最後請統整回復。"],["顧部長立雄：一般空軍的教召不像陸軍，陸軍都是在做部隊的教召，空軍的部分都是高專能力，所以他會採教召這個單位的性質，這可能是警衛這一類的……"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有，他在第四天……"],["顧部長立雄：就這個部分，委員既然有提出來，我們再下去了解一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：就是他在第四天訓練的時候有打靶，打靶的時候，整個營都拉到宜蘭之後，才發現根本沒帶彈匣。"],["李參謀長慶然：跟委員報告，這個就是剛剛跟您報告的，管理上確實有些混亂，我們再檢討，因為早上去的人打完靶了，他把所有裝備帶回來，但他應該把彈匣留在原地，結果他把彈匣帶回來，下午去的人也沒確實清查，結果沒有帶彈匣，因為彈匣應該要留在原地，所以造成那一批受影響的人沒有打到靶，這個我們有檢討了。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為時間的關係，我最後簡單做一個結論，這是一個案例，有具體的陳情，但是我們也不是只要求空軍去檢討，而是我們開始做增加量能教召之後，所有可能會發生的一些系統性上的問題都應該一併去做盤整，好不好？謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["李參謀長慶然：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請牛煦庭委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","王義川","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃建賓","王定宇","王安祥","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","葉元之","黃仁","林楚茵"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「少子化衝擊下國軍人力資源政策與未來因應規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}