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11:39:12","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【7月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.122843750000001,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.505968750000001,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":17.395343750000002,"end":18.89721875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.51721875,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":27.03096875,"end":40.446593750000005,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":40.81784375,"end":59.68409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":60.46034375000001,"end":61.523468750000006,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":61.67534375,"end":62.265968750000006,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":63.244718750000004,"end":72.08721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":72.82971875,"end":113.21159375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":113.48159375,"end":122.05409375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":122.57721875000001,"end":123.52221875000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":123.52221875000001,"end":123.53909375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":124.77096875000001,"end":136.06034375000002,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":126.07034375,"end":126.37409375000001,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":127.85909375000001,"end":128.07846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":128.93909375,"end":129.39471875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":133.09034375000002,"end":133.44471875000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":136.06034375000002,"end":136.76909375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":136.07721875000001,"end":136.73534375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":136.76909375,"end":137.12346875,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":137.12346875,"end":137.15721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.72659375,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":139.18221875,"end":139.19909375,"speaker_score":0.958},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":139.19909375,"end":144.95346875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.58221875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.96596875,"end":164.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":164.96721875,"end":194.92034375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":195.71346875,"end":210.95159375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":211.45784375000002,"end":220.73909375000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":221.56596875000002,"end":222.07221875000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":222.49409375000002,"end":225.81846875000002,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":226.47659375,"end":251.92409375000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":252.97034375,"end":261.52596875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":261.99846875000003,"end":262.43721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":262.97721875,"end":263.56784375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":264.00659375000004,"end":266.11596875000004,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":266.23409375,"end":292.69409375000004,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":293.16659375,"end":298.31346875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":299.14034375,"end":299.88284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"洪委員孟楷","start":300.30471875,"end":304.03409375,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因為今天您只是代表這個刑事訴訟懲戒廳嘛 對不對是是是"},{"start":146.007,"end":170.455,"text":"那這個部分我們會帶回去那原則上那個法輔基金會的部分他當初立法目的應該是要保障就是像無資歷的人或者是原住民這樣但是至於詳細的這個委員所垂詢的內容我們再帶回去我們再請教這個權責的這個庭處我們再去做回應當初會有法輔的制度我想這也是站在這個法律相對專業的一個立場上不要說讓"},{"start":171.435,"end":194.654,"text":"所有人不管是被害者或是就是被告或是原告啦就是說在這個法律上面都可以有一個適度的專業能夠來保護但絕對不是說一味的幫加害者這邊來開脫變成好像加害者他有這個法服的一個資源可以無限的使用一年司法院這邊也編列了15億的經費給法服基金會那這是一個案例再來我們再看"},{"start":195.799,"end":220.292,"text":"我們看到另外一個部分是現在部長我們之前也有跟你這邊質詢過就是劉中興所長的這個案件好那簡單講之前你也這邊有講過就是說我們支持檢方就是持續的就是說檢方在起訴那並且也在地方法院一審的時候劉中興所長這邊已經判這一個加害者這一個吸毒的駕車者並且他是惡意故意衝撞"},{"start":222.561,"end":225.17,"text":"那現在高等法院就沒想到他用法輔基金會"},{"start":226.556,"end":251.716,"text":"在大換血 我們看到他的律師團大換血並且這律師團三位赫赫有名一位是高等法院法官退休一位是這個刑事辯護的協會的理事長一位是廢死聯盟的理事這三位明顯都是廢死的背景甚至這個高等法院的法官退休的律師他就直接不諱言的接受媒體採訪講說我就是支持廢死"},{"start":253.001,"end":280.892,"text":"他甚至還提到是說沒有誰的命可以抵償誰啊所以劉所長的家屬也不會認為說這一個誠信加害者配抵償但我想說不是配不配的問題啊今天在於是說法令怎麼規定你任何人犯了罪之後就應該要付出應有的代價你就應該要付出代價我想這也是檢察官在起訴的時候檢察官在法院上面講的時候的一個具體的一個主張"},{"start":281.772,"end":304.343,"text":"但現在法服可以用三個廢死律師就是想要幫這個陳姓加害者來去做逃脫死刑的狀況那部長 身為你 你是身為相對檢方這一邊如果到最後二審 高等法院改判了沒有維持原本的地方法院的一個死刑的話你能夠接受嗎"},{"start":305.926,"end":321.127,"text":"的確 那個是獨駕致死那個讓警察對不起 我更正一下他是獨從惡意衝撞故意殺人撞死他不是獨駕致死 他還不是那麼輕微他是獨從駕車故意衝撞惡意"},{"start":323.45,"end":341.443,"text":"故意殺人所以這部分我想而且一審也用國民法官那是判死刑那我覺得我們非常肯定一審法官跟國民法官的這樣的一個決定我們非常的一個肯定那但是因為二審他有剛才委員有關心就那個整個一個辯護人全部都換了"},{"start":342.284,"end":345.626,"text":"我相信我們檢察官會堅定我們既有的立場我相信我們檢察官不會改變我們會幫被害人伸張聲力捍衛"},{"start":364.538,"end":380.915,"text":"這些一審的判決的這些的一個立場我們會我相信檢察會這樣那至於那個律師那個那這部分因為他是審判中的案件我們法務部沒辦法去處理這個區塊那是不是請司法人來做一個回應但是來部長我只是想請教"},{"start":381.616,"end":401.474,"text":"就你這個檢方 因為你現在比較站在檢方這邊的立場我一定是站在一個被害人的立場來捍衛這件事情好 那我現在就說你覺得說可以這樣子一審二審然後法律師全部大換血然後好像變成是說他加害者他是怎樣自助餐啊法服基金會現在可以讓加害者當自助餐我要挑就是有廢死背景的"},{"start":402.194,"end":419.807,"text":"他這個律師是什麼指令?他是Rendon指定?還是說是可以讓被害者自己...這個要請司法院來回答不管是有沒有換律師,我想檢方一定會堅定我們既有的立場但是這個是非常不對等的嘛相對來講,其實是很不對等的一件事情來,我想請教一下司法院的法官"},{"start":420.97,"end":448.677,"text":"我都尊重法官我也有認識法官法官希望是一個公平持平的一個角色那但是我在這件案件上面我跟大多數絕大多數的國人都一樣我們沒有辦法理解一個加害者一個毒蟲駕車撞死我們執勤的員警他可以一審二審像自助餐一樣他要挑A法官B法官C法官然後法輔基金會幫他全額買單那買單的錢是用人民的納稅錢一年15億"},{"start":450.629,"end":467.772,"text":"那這個制度是不是要有檢討必要性我可以給你最基本的法律意見的表達但是不是說讓你挑廢死聯盟的法官來幫你來辯護然後就是為了要脫逃死刑我脫逃原本應該要負的責任"},{"start":468.953,"end":490.629,"text":"法官謝偉銓詢問針對個案的律師是如何選任這個部分我們回去了解之後我們在這邊沒有一個標準嗎還是我們用指派的是用指派的還是選擇的一般法輔基金會如果在選任律師的時候他應該是有一個名單上然後我們會給那個犯罪者勾選"},{"start":491.469,"end":518.758,"text":"我們應該是由基金會這邊會去了解然後去詢問這個名單上面的律師那這個詳細上面就是個案上面是如何這個可以讓被告或被告來挑選的話這部分我們就個案的部分我們再去做了解之後我們再去跟委員做詢問我要拜託法官我們帶回去也了解是說他這流程到底是怎麼樣如果說真的有應該要改進檢討的地方我們要來做一個改進檢討因為絕對不是讓加害者一個獨種我再一次強調"},{"start":519.798,"end":538.301,"text":"我今天跟這個人我也都不認識但是他今天已經違反到台灣法治社會善良民俗一個執勤的員警在做攔檢的時候他可以直接衝撞脫行這個員警造成這個員警天人永隔他的一個四歲的女兒跟他的太太從此沒有爸爸"},{"start":539.355,"end":557.501,"text":"結果他居然可以在二審的時候再用挑選法 挑選律師的方式然後就是剛好 就那麼好廢死聯盟的人全部都站在他那一邊然後來幫他辯護我覺得這個是 那是法輔基金會我們的主陳律師是不是這個也要去做思考"},{"start":559.045,"end":573.559,"text":"最後一個小問題一分鐘就好我想因為這兩天也看到是說這個有法官開庭的時候的這個態度問題就一個女學生因為被車禍上命然後到最後這個審理法官在開庭的時候發言"},{"start":574.58,"end":602.609,"text":"個案的部分我就不追究但是因為台北地方法院也已經有發出正式的聲明稿講到是說提醒法官在公正公開心證的時候維持法庭秩序的時候應該以審慎溫和清楚解同理心的方式溝通所以在這個法庭上面的言語態度或溝通方式是不是至少有一些專業的標準能夠表達而不是說說實在在這個案件上面"},{"start":603.723,"end":619.259,"text":"忍回這個被害者家屬讓被害者家屬這個情理上感受上網路上的炸鍋我覺得這確實已經有為了一個專業的一個回應那司法院針對這個部分是不是後續能夠做什麼樣的一個精進跟檢討"},{"start":622.04,"end":640.848,"text":"那那個針對開庭態度的部分確實在法官倫理規範裡面有特別針對開庭態度應該要這個能夠懇切能夠有一個相關的一些倫理規範的規定那至於個案上面的話我們也尊重台北地院的一個回應但是因為台北地院已經發正式新聞稿了嘛就代表是說他其實感覺到遺憾"},{"start":641.468,"end":660.275,"text":"那我覺得說在這一個個案的部分可能還是要請司法院這邊帶回去研究就是說是不是能夠再一次的提醒我們全國的法官不管是地方法院高等法院每一次在司法法治委員會我們在審查相關的這個預算年度預算的時候我有看過所有地方法院的所有的"},{"start":662.236,"end":676.803,"text":"這個法官應該是這個院長啊等等都有來到我們這個司法法治委員會那我也一再提醒法官的角色是公平的一個裁決但是應該是要讓人民感受到能夠尊重的專業好不好這一點再麻煩 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:03.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:04.474000+08:00","text":"主席謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:04.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:08.917000+08:00","text":"麻煩請法務部部長、司法院林法官。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:09.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:10.658000+08:00","text":"好，請部長，還有林法官。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:12.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:13.260000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:13.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:13.680000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:14.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:25.068000+08:00","text":"感謝召委今天排相關的修法討論，當然本席也就教幾件事情，法務部跟司法院的態度也是我們要釐清的方向。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:25.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:28:48.930000+08:00","text":"主要還是針對之前召委也有提到的法扶基金會，為什麼好像變成我們編列相關預算，讓這些犯罪者不用花錢請律師，反而是無辜的被害者要自己去花錢找律師上訴？","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:28:49.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:03.810000+08:00","text":"請先看一下，本席有接到一個陳情，這個陳情是這樣子，他說法扶還可以免費幫詐騙集團找律師……個案我不討論，但是這個陳情人講的是他現在面臨的一個狀況，所以我們先釐清一下。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:05.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:28.555000+08:00","text":"受害者被詐騙集團詐騙，他也提出公訴，結果反而是詐騙集團現在可以用法扶基金會找律師，而受害者說要去尋求法律協助時，法扶說他名下有土地、房子不符合標準，結果反而沒有辦法得到相關的法律諮詢。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:29.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:38.979000+08:00","text":"這個受害者還說自己用來支付母親糖尿病的醫藥費都被法院扣押，房子財產也被查封，這樣子到底法院是不是詐騙集團開的？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:39.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:42.580000+08:00","text":"這是民眾很強烈的一個訴求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:44.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:29:57.830000+08:00","text":"所以我想請教部長或司法院，法扶基金會當初開宗明義的立法要旨，到底是要幫什麼樣的民眾？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:29:57.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:00.832000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心犯罪被害人權利的保障。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:02.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:07.917000+08:00","text":"法扶是屬於司法院主管的業務，這部分我沒辦法表示我的看法。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:08.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:16.515000+08:00","text":"那麼請教司法院，當然這不是您主管，因為今天您只是代表刑事訴訟懲戒廳對不對？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:16.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:19.227000+08:00","text":"是，這個部分我們會帶回去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:19.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:36.833000+08:00","text":"原則上法扶基金會當初的立法目的應該是要保障無資力的人或者是原住民，至於委員所垂詢的詳細內容，我們會帶回去請權責的廳處加以回應。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:30:36.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:30:59.128000+08:00","text":"當初會有法扶的制度，我想這也是站在法律相對專業的立場上，讓被告或原告在法律上面都可以有適度的專業能夠予以保護，但絕對不是一味的幫加害者開脫，變成好像加害者有法扶的資源可以無限使用！","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:00.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:05.373000+08:00","text":"畢竟司法院一年也編列了15億的經費給法扶基金會，這是一個案例。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:06.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:15.523000+08:00","text":"再來我們看到另外一個部分，部長，我們之前也有跟您質詢過劉宗鑫所長的案件。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:17.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:30.751000+08:00","text":"之前你也有講過檢方已經起訴，而且在地方法院一審的時候，已經判劉宗鑫所長案件的加害者死刑，也就是判這一個惡意衝撞的吸毒駕車者死刑。","quality":0.567},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:34.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:31:52.547000+08:00","text":"現在案件上訴到高等法院，結果沒想到他用法扶基金會在大換血，我們看到他的律師團大換血，並且這個律師團的三位律師都是赫赫有名，一位是高等法院法官退休，一位是刑事辯護協會的理事長，一位是廢死聯盟的理事。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:31:53.548000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:16.045000+08:00","text":"這三位明顯都是廢死的背景，甚至從高等法院法官退休的這位律師，他在接受媒體採訪時直接不諱言的說他就是支持廢死，他甚至還提到沒有誰的命可以抵償誰，所以劉所長的家屬也不會認為這位陳姓加害者配抵償。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:16.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:32.892000+08:00","text":"但我想這不是配不配的問題，今天的問題在於法令規定任何人犯了罪之後就應該要付出應有的代價，我想這也是檢察官起訴時在法庭上所講的具體主張。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:33.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:42.636000+08:00","text":"但現在法扶卻可以用三個廢死律師就是想要幫這個陳姓加害者逃脫死刑。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:44.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:32:56.343000+08:00","text":"部長，你相對是站在檢方這一邊，如果二審到最後高等法院改判，沒有維持地方法院原本所判的死刑，你能夠接受嗎？","quality":0.809},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:32:57.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:02.372000+08:00","text":"的確那是毒駕致死，那個讓警察……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:02.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:15.910000+08:00","text":"對不起，我更正一下，他是毒蟲、惡意衝撞、故意殺人、撞死，他不是毒駕致死，他還不是那麼輕微，他是毒蟲駕車惡意衝撞、故意殺人。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:18.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:25.898000+08:00","text":"對，而且一審國民法官也判死刑，我們非常肯定一審法官跟國民法官這樣的決定。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:28.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:33.423000+08:00","text":"但是二審剛才委員有關心辯護人全部都換了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:33.423000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:33:34.423000+08:00","text":"第一辯護人全換，一審本來是兩位律師，那兩位律師全換掉，二審變成三個律師，那三個律師都是廢死聯盟或是主張廢死的律師。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:33:34.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:02.364000+08:00","text":"我相信檢察官會堅定既有的立場，我相信我們的檢察官不會改變，我們會幫被害人伸張正義，捍衛一審判決的立場，我相信檢察官會這樣做。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:02.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:11.294000+08:00","text":"至於律師的部分，因為它是審判中的案件，法務部沒辦法處理這個區塊，是不是請司法院來回應？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:11.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:16.258000+08:00","text":"部長，我只是想請教就檢方的立場，因為你現在比較站在檢方的立場……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:16.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:18.160000+08:00","text":"我一定是站在被害人的立場來捍衛這些……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:18.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:27.889000+08:00","text":"好，那你覺得可以這樣子一審、二審的律師全部大換血，好像變成是加害者的自助餐嗎？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:28.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:33.454000+08:00","text":"法扶基金會現在可以讓加害者當自助餐，可以讓他挑有廢死背景的？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:34.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:35.495000+08:00","text":"這些律師是怎麼指定？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:36.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:39.478000+08:00","text":"他是random指定，還是說可以讓被害者自己挑選？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:39.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:44.662000+08:00","text":"這要請司法院來回答，不過不管有沒有換律師，我想檢方一定會堅定我們既有的立場。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:45.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:46.943000+08:00","text":"這是非常不對等的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:47.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:50.005000+08:00","text":"相對來講，這其實是很不對等的事情。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:50.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:34:58.971000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下司法院，我都尊重法官，我也有認識法官，我們希望法官是公平、持平的角色。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:34:59.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:18.916000+08:00","text":"但是在這件案件上面，我跟絕大多數的國人一樣，我們都沒有辦法理解，一個加害者、一個毒蟲駕車撞死執勤的員警，他可以一審、二審像自助餐一樣，他要挑A律師、B律師、C律師，然後法扶基金會幫他全額買單？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:19.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:20.557000+08:00","text":"而買單的錢是用人民的納稅錢？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:20.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:20.677000+08:00","text":"一年15億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:22.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:24.832000+08:00","text":"這個制度是不是有檢討的必要性？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:25.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:39.752000+08:00","text":"我可以給你最基本的法律意見表達，但並不是讓你挑廢死聯盟的前法官來幫你辯護，就是為了要脫逃死刑或脫逃原本應該要負的責任？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:44.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:44.095000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員垂詢。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:44.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:48.418000+08:00","text":"關於個案的律師是如何選任，這個部分可能我們回去了解之後再跟委員說明。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:49.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:51.441000+08:00","text":"沒有一個標準嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:52.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:35:53.982000+08:00","text":"到底是用指派的還是選擇的？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:35:54.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:02.008000+08:00","text":"一般法扶基金會在選任律師的時候應該是有一個名單，然後我們會做……","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:02.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:02.629000+08:00","text":"然後給犯罪者勾選？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:02.629000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:03.869000+08:00","text":"讓他吃自助餐？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:03.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:10.231000+08:00","text":"應該是基金會會去了解，然後去詢問名單上面的律師。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:12.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:19.994000+08:00","text":"至於個案上面是如何選任、可不可以讓被告挑選，這部分我們了解之後再跟委員提出書面報告。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:20.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:34.201000+08:00","text":"我要拜託林法官把這個問題帶回去，同時去了解相關流程到底是怎麼樣，如果真的有應該要改進檢討的地方，那麼我們就要來改進檢討，因為絕對不是讓加害者、一個毒蟲……我再一次強調，我跟這個人並不認識！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:34.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:36:50.281000+08:00","text":"但是他今天已經違反了臺灣法治社會的善良風俗，執勤員警在攔檢的時候，他可以直接衝撞、拖行員警，造成這名員警天人永隔，讓員警的4歲女兒從此沒有爸爸、讓員警的太太失去丈夫！","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:36:51.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:37:09.481000+08:00","text":"結果他居然可以在二審的時候用挑選律師的方式，然後剛好廢死聯盟的人全部都站在他那一邊來幫他辯護，我覺得法扶基金會的律師組成是不是也要加以思考？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:37:11.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:37:20.434000+08:00","text":"最後一個小問題，因為這兩天看到法官開庭時的態度問題。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:37:20.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:37:42.605000+08:00","text":"就是一個女學生因為車禍喪命，然後審理法官在開庭時的發言問題，個案的部分我就不追究，但是因為臺北地方法院已經發出正式聲明稿，提醒法官在公開心證、維持法庭秩序的時候，應該以審慎、溫和、清楚且具同理心的方式溝通。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:37:43.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:07.495000+08:00","text":"所以在法庭上面的言語態度或溝通方式是不是至少有一些專業的標準能夠表達，而不是……說實在的，在這個案件上面冷回被害者家屬，讓被害者家屬的情理、感受在網路上炸鍋，我覺得這確實已經有違專業的回應。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:07.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:11.259000+08:00","text":"司法院針對這個部分後續是不是能夠做什麼樣的精進跟檢討？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:11.259000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:14.960000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員垂詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林法官敬超","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:14.960000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:28.306000+08:00","text":"針對開庭態度的部分，確實在法官倫理規範裡面有特別規定開庭態度應該要懇切等相關倫理規範；至於個案的話，我們也尊重臺北地院的回應，詳細的……","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:28.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:32.828000+08:00","text":"因為臺北地院已經發正式新聞稿了，就代表他其實感受到遺憾。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:33.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:38:41.691000+08:00","text":"我覺得針對個案的部分，可能還是要請司法院帶回去研究，是不是能夠再一次提醒全國的法官？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-08T11:38:42.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:08.803000+08:00","text":"不管是地方法院或高等法院，每一次在司法及法制委員會審查相關年度預算的時候，我有看過所有地方法院的法官，包括院長等等都有來到我們司法及法制委員會，我也一再提醒法官的角色是公平的裁決，應該要讓人民感受到能夠尊重的專業，這一點再麻煩，謝謝。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:09.303000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:10.731571+08:00","text":"謝謝洪委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:11.031571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:16.174429+08:00","text":"最後有請莊瑞雄委員發言，今天莊委員壓軸。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時28分）主席謝謝。麻煩請法務部部長、司法院林法官。"],["主席：好，請部長，還有林法官。"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。感謝召委今天排相關的修法討論，當然本席也就教幾件事情，法務部跟司法院的態度也是我們要釐清的方向。主要還是針對之前召委也有提到的法扶基金會，為什麼好像變成我們編列相關預算，讓這些犯罪者不用花錢請律師，反而是無辜的被害者要自己去花錢找律師上訴？","請先看一下，本席有接到一個陳情，這個陳情是這樣子，他說法扶還可以免費幫詐騙集團找律師……個案我不討論，但是這個陳情人講的是他現在面臨的一個狀況，所以我們先釐清一下。受害者被詐騙集團詐騙，他也提出公訴，結果反而是詐騙集團現在可以用法扶基金會找律師，而受害者說要去尋求法律協助時，法扶說他名下有土地、房子不符合標準，結果反而沒有辦法得到相關的法律諮詢。這個受害者還說自己用來支付母親糖尿病的醫藥費都被法院扣押，房子財產也被查封，這樣子到底法院是不是詐騙集團開的？這是民眾很強烈的一個訴求。","所以我想請教部長或司法院，法扶基金會當初開宗明義的立法要旨，到底是要幫什麼樣的民眾？"],["鄭部長銘謙：謝謝委員關心犯罪被害人權利的保障。法扶是屬於司法院主管的業務，這部分我沒辦法表示我的看法。"],["洪委員孟楷：那麼請教司法院，當然這不是您主管，因為今天您只是代表刑事訴訟懲戒廳對不對？"],["林法官敬超：是，這個部分我們會帶回去。原則上法扶基金會當初的立法目的應該是要保障無資力的人或者是原住民，至於委員所垂詢的詳細內容，我們會帶回去請權責的廳處加以回應。"],["洪委員孟楷：當初會有法扶的制度，我想這也是站在法律相對專業的立場上，讓被告或原告在法律上面都可以有適度的專業能夠予以保護，但絕對不是一味的幫加害者開脫，變成好像加害者有法扶的資源可以無限使用！畢竟司法院一年也編列了15億的經費給法扶基金會，這是一個案例。","再來我們看到另外一個部分，部長，我們之前也有跟您質詢過劉宗鑫所長的案件。之前你也有講過檢方已經起訴，而且在地方法院一審的時候，已經判劉宗鑫所長案件的加害者死刑，也就是判這一個惡意衝撞的吸毒駕車者死刑。現在案件上訴到高等法院，結果沒想到他用法扶基金會在大換血，我們看到他的律師團大換血，並且這個律師團的三位律師都是赫赫有名，一位是高等法院法官退休，一位是刑事辯護協會的理事長，一位是廢死聯盟的理事。這三位明顯都是廢死的背景，甚至從高等法院法官退休的這位律師，他在接受媒體採訪時直接不諱言的說他就是支持廢死，他甚至還提到沒有誰的命可以抵償誰，所以劉所長的家屬也不會認為這位陳姓加害者配抵償。但我想這不是配不配的問題，今天的問題在於法令規定任何人犯了罪之後就應該要付出應有的代價，我想這也是檢察官起訴時在法庭上所講的具體主張。但現在法扶卻可以用三個廢死律師就是想要幫這個陳姓加害者逃脫死刑。部長，你相對是站在檢方這一邊，如果二審到最後高等法院改判，沒有維持地方法院原本所判的死刑，你能夠接受嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：的確那是毒駕致死，那個讓警察……"],["洪委員孟楷：對不起，我更正一下，他是毒蟲、惡意衝撞、故意殺人、撞死，他不是毒駕致死，他還不是那麼輕微，他是毒蟲駕車惡意衝撞、故意殺人。"],["鄭部長銘謙：對，而且一審國民法官也判死刑，我們非常肯定一審法官跟國民法官這樣的決定。但是二審剛才委員有關心辯護人全部都換了……"],["洪委員孟楷：第一辯護人全換，一審本來是兩位律師，那兩位律師全換掉，二審變成三個律師，那三個律師都是廢死聯盟或是主張廢死的律師。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我相信檢察官會堅定既有的立場，我相信我們的檢察官不會改變，我們會幫被害人伸張正義，捍衛一審判決的立場，我相信檢察官會這樣做。至於律師的部分，因為它是審判中的案件，法務部沒辦法處理這個區塊，是不是請司法院來回應？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我只是想請教就檢方的立場，因為你現在比較站在檢方的立場……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我一定是站在被害人的立場來捍衛這些……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那你覺得可以這樣子一審、二審的律師全部大換血，好像變成是加害者的自助餐嗎？法扶基金會現在可以讓加害者當自助餐，可以讓他挑有廢死背景的？這些律師是怎麼指定？他是random指定，還是說可以讓被害者自己挑選？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這要請司法院來回答，不過不管有沒有換律師，我想檢方一定會堅定我們既有的立場。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是非常不對等的！相對來講，這其實是很不對等的事情。我想請教一下司法院，我都尊重法官，我也有認識法官，我們希望法官是公平、持平的角色。但是在這件案件上面，我跟絕大多數的國人一樣，我們都沒有辦法理解，一個加害者、一個毒蟲駕車撞死執勤的員警，他可以一審、二審像自助餐一樣，他要挑A律師、B律師、C律師，然後法扶基金會幫他全額買單？而買單的錢是用人民的納稅錢？一年15億。這個制度是不是有檢討的必要性？我可以給你最基本的法律意見表達，但並不是讓你挑廢死聯盟的前法官來幫你辯護，就是為了要脫逃死刑或脫逃原本應該要負的責任？"],["林法官敬超：謝謝委員垂詢。關於個案的律師是如何選任，這個部分可能我們回去了解之後再跟委員說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有一個標準嗎？到底是用指派的還是選擇的？"],["林法官敬超：一般法扶基金會在選任律師的時候應該是有一個名單，然後我們會做……"],["洪委員孟楷：然後給犯罪者勾選？讓他吃自助餐？"],["林法官敬超：應該是基金會會去了解，然後去詢問名單上面的律師。至於個案上面是如何選任、可不可以讓被告挑選，這部分我們了解之後再跟委員提出書面報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：我要拜託林法官把這個問題帶回去，同時去了解相關流程到底是怎麼樣，如果真的有應該要改進檢討的地方，那麼我們就要來改進檢討，因為絕對不是讓加害者、一個毒蟲……我再一次強調，我跟這個人並不認識！但是他今天已經違反了臺灣法治社會的善良風俗，執勤員警在攔檢的時候，他可以直接衝撞、拖行員警，造成這名員警天人永隔，讓員警的4歲女兒從此沒有爸爸、讓員警的太太失去丈夫！結果他居然可以在二審的時候用挑選律師的方式，然後剛好廢死聯盟的人全部都站在他那一邊來幫他辯護，我覺得法扶基金會的律師組成是不是也要加以思考？","最後一個小問題，因為這兩天看到法官開庭時的態度問題。就是一個女學生因為車禍喪命，然後審理法官在開庭時的發言問題，個案的部分我就不追究，但是因為臺北地方法院已經發出正式聲明稿，提醒法官在公開心證、維持法庭秩序的時候，應該以審慎、溫和、清楚且具同理心的方式溝通。所以在法庭上面的言語態度或溝通方式是不是至少有一些專業的標準能夠表達，而不是……說實在的，在這個案件上面冷回被害者家屬，讓被害者家屬的情理、感受在網路上炸鍋，我覺得這確實已經有違專業的回應。司法院針對這個部分後續是不是能夠做什麼樣的精進跟檢討？"],["林法官敬超：謝謝委員垂詢。針對開庭態度的部分，確實在法官倫理規範裡面有特別規定開庭態度應該要懇切等相關倫理規範；至於個案的話，我們也尊重臺北地院的回應，詳細的……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為臺北地院已經發正式新聞稿了，就代表他其實感受到遺憾。我覺得針對個案的部分，可能還是要請司法院帶回去研究，是不是能夠再一次提醒全國的法官？不管是地方法院或高等法院，每一次在司法及法制委員會審查相關年度預算的時候，我有看過所有地方法院的法官，包括院長等等都有來到我們司法及法制委員會，我也一再提醒法官的角色是公平的裁決，應該要讓人民感受到能夠尊重的專業，這一點再麻煩，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員。","最後有請莊瑞雄委員發言，今天莊委員壓軸。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-24","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","張雅琳","林倩綺","沈發惠","范雲","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","莊瑞雄","林沛祥","吳宗憲","蔡其昌","邱鎮軍","傅崐萁"],"page_start":255,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」\n案、（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案、（三）委員\n王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（四）委\n員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（五）\n委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案、（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬\n具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（七）委員翁曉玲等24人\n擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文\n修正草案」案、（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（十）委員\n羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155901_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}