{"error":false,"id":["170366"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170366,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170366","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-36-24","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":24,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T11:39:18+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T11:55:28+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c82102cae0b259a90e124a17ae0fa9196a3efd75944b02079af3039797466756a34355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:39:18 - 11:55:28","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【7月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.99659375,"end":4.199093749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.371593750000001,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.42534375,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.42909375,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.48159375,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.16909375,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.210968750000006,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.79721875,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.13409375,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.08721875,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.24846875,"end":176.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.37471875,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.45471875,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.41221875000002,"end":185.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.04409375,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":218.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.10221875000002,"end":221.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.83596875,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.45159375,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.30721875,"end":240.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.61784375000002,"end":240.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.36034375000003,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.89534375000002,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.02596875,"end":249.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.63221875,"end":271.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.57284375,"end":260.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.22659375,"end":261.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.18846875,"end":261.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.75784375,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.76596875,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.39409375,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.16159375,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.17846875000004,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.09284375000004,"end":279.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.97034375000004,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.00409375000004,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.08846875,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.10534375000003,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.15596875,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.17284375,"end":280.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.18971875,"end":280.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.24034375,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.29096875,"end":280.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.76346875,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.88471875,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.31909375000004,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.30596875000003,"end":292.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.89659375,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.36909375,"end":293.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.38596875,"end":293.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.47034375000004,"end":295.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.65596875,"end":295.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.14096875,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.19159375000004,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.60846875000004,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.39221875000004,"end":331.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.11409375,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.69034375,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.45346875,"end":347.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.94284375,"end":349.124093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你說一個案子到底要確定的話這個上級審在審酌說你強制編入案件為什麼沒有律師出來這個也麻煩 所以說律師 這個法務派出的律師在讓整個審判的一個過程裡面 讓他程序完全去合法確認說檢方提出來的證據 然後整個審判過程裡面"},{"start":112.521,"end":124.091,"text":"他是沒有瑕疵的其實這個某個程度來講的話對於整個司法的一個制度啊我個人倒認為是健康的啦認為是健康的只是說這個確實啊刑事案件"},{"start":125.017,"end":150.507,"text":"重罪的被害人那個加害人每一個看起來都是討厭的哪有一個加害人然後到法庭上去民眾會覺得說他好可憐的不至於有這樣的一個認定這是本席的一個看法但是我有一個問題要來救教我覺得蠻嚴肅的就是說這一次我們監獄行刑法的一個修正草案裡面你去看那個148條裡面那個第二項規定就是說死刑定讞如果說日後經撤銷改判"},{"start":151.667,"end":170.075,"text":"併驗撤銷改辦一定是非常上述的救濟你把它撤銷掉以後你們現在是說它待執行期間不得折抵刑期也不得記錄假釋跟已執行的期間我這個部分個人就有一點不一樣的看法"},{"start":171.015,"end":184.847,"text":"不管用什麼樣的一個名譽把一個被告把一個人關在監獄裡面你說不給羈押的也可以折抵任何你就改一個只要限制"},{"start":186.864,"end":213.76,"text":"人民的那個人生的一個自由的話用什麼樣的一個名目你把它限制你到最後說如果改判了改判完以後你說那個部分說變成不能折抵我也覺得很奇怪啊比如說你本來是一個重罪的定焉啦不要說死刑啊你是重罪的那後來法提起救濟制度非常上述然後判決下來他可能改判的變成是有嫉妒刑未必是無嫉妒刑是有嫉妒刑啊"},{"start":214.56,"end":239.811,"text":"那你如果在監獄裡面假設已經是關了八年十年那可是判決下來的時候你說他剩下搞不好是判的只多了一點點的話那前面你說不能折抵這個會不會覺得比較奇怪啊死刑判下來法院如果判下來變成有期徒刑你說不能折抵我不曉得你們把這部分排除掉的理由有沒有比較更堅強一點"},{"start":241.995,"end":254.933,"text":"這個委員應該很清楚 就是收容它並不是羈押但是也是人身自由的一個技術但是那個性質 因為法令本來 刑法本來 則底本來就是徒刑"},{"start":256.724,"end":278.157,"text":"就是徒刑...那個...部長我懂你的意思你就是說那個是我們法律的規定,折抵的是有期徒刑折抵本來就是建立那個...就是人身自由的法律處分跟那些徒刑、拘役跟罰金嘛我們如果把那個名詞先不管它的話那些名詞其實就是把人身自由給剝奪嘛"},{"start":281.015,"end":295.287,"text":"這是要代執行的 代執行之定驗的死刑犯這是一個過渡 這個是一定我想這個是 因為這個是代執行的一個是 代執行期間 我們現在講的對 我們講的當然是代執行 但是後來如果有一個判決"},{"start":300.66,"end":328.532,"text":"提起非常上訴啊 就是非常上訴的一個救濟制度就是在糾正下級審的一個判決可能就不適當啦 不要說違法啦但是其實這在講判決違法令才會非常上訴嘛那既然把原來不對的判決把它給撤銷掉然後再重新判了一個有期徒刑那你說那一段那個待執行期間只因為跟法條規定的名目不同可是實質上都是剝奪人身的一個自由"},{"start":329.172,"end":345.577,"text":"這個部分說不能去折抵我是覺得我們現在的理由裡面光講條文的這樣的一個解釋會不會有有沒有辦法通過憲法法庭的一個假設這個案子如果提起憲法救濟的話憲法法庭真的你們這樣的理由你們覺得夠堅強嗎"},{"start":348.043,"end":362.072,"text":"我想這個是本來就是要保全那個那個收容的這些我想這個跟我再重申就是跟性質跟目的不同而且我認為沒有說本來就帶子型的這個"},{"start":363.593,"end":378.731,"text":"定认的死刑犯他这边所容期间这个跟我们性质既然不同其实我们认为是本来就是没有去就是这些人身自由是不是要去折抵的这件事情我想我们立法就是这样的一个考量嘛"},{"start":379.312,"end":401.497,"text":"所以我想這是一個特別救濟程序 因為它是回廠上述而如果說有撤銷原判決 這個是很極端的例外的情形這個跟我們一般的判有期徒刑 那個還有說基於罰金或者那些保安處分的那部分的折抵這本來就是性質是不同嘛"},{"start":402.117,"end":418.335,"text":"性質上當然不同絕對是不同但是剝奪人身自由本質又相同我不能說把一個判死刑的還有在已經訂業還有什麼積壓的那個稅也沒有在延壓的問題也沒有這個問題嘛所以我想當時立法的一個考量本來就是要"},{"start":418.996,"end":438.039,"text":"要不同的一個一個立法的一個考量所以他不會用這是羈押定驗之後的就沒有羈押的這個死刑犯就沒有羈押的這些的法律上的一個性質所以他的進入不是羈押如果羈押的話我們都是有"},{"start":438.76,"end":462.63,"text":"有考慮到我們現在羈押期間跟次數的一個限制嘛這當然是一個保全的一個程序嘛但是這一種的定驗的我想一定要待執行之定驗的使刑犯這一段的時間可是部長我的意思是指說你原來那個你把他的人身自由剝奪是有一個"},{"start":463.81,"end":492.218,"text":"定驗的一個判決在可是你那個定驗的判決已經被撤銷掉啦我的重點在這個地方你撤銷掉以後不管他叫做什麼他就是關在那個地方關了幾年那這幾年都不算數法律上他如果說撤銷的另外都回復到羈押的問題因為確定定驗的確定判決被撤銷那個是另外如果說我再羈押那當然是可以折抵嘛那可以可以可以如果說改判揮死刑當然是可以折抵嘛"},{"start":492.714,"end":505.73,"text":"但是已經這一種的當時在定院之前的那些的那些當然收容期限其實本席的見解其實是這樣子啦我想這個法律規定的非常的明確同樣都是受到國家的拘禁我懂你們的意思啦"},{"start":509.054,"end":516.697,"text":"這一些其實我也不想再太多著墨那著墨以多所著墨反而讓人家覺得我們對那些很可惡的人好像幫他們開脫不是是因為說同樣遭受到國家的一個拘禁那遭受國家的一個拘禁那是因為有一個判決在那個判決如果被撤銷掉我剛才給你講的那些算假講的你未來給我看說我應該講十年我算算我就十年夠了你要給我放出來你說剛才那些都不算講的都變白講的這個也"},{"start":537.526,"end":555.574,"text":"那個其實113年憲判八字的判決的一個意思其實對這邊是有處理的是是有處理的這個區塊所以我們就會就會來提出法案等一下這個是我的疑慮啦疑病啦來做參考啦他有特別續名這個救濟程序喔特別救濟程序"},{"start":556.354,"end":573.901,"text":"這個特別的救濟跟刑事通常救濟程序是有別的所以這是一個通常救濟程序這個導致的一個特別救濟的例外情形沒有侵犯人身自由的一個疑慮所以這部分沒辦法去用增審中的這些的期間去做一個摺疊"},{"start":575.522,"end":603.851,"text":"沒辦法折抵 那我想這個這個委員 這部分我們是我也不去講說那個判決不夠進步啦但是其實有時候概念常常都是一個浮動我尊重 我尊重 我只是在講說同樣都是遭受到國家機關的一個拘禁剝奪人身自由 可是原來那個判決被撤銷掉了被撤銷到前面關了那一部分 你說不算只是因為它不符合法律規定的一個定義 可是對"},{"start":605.291,"end":626.774,"text":"對人民來講不管他是好人還是壞人他被判決以後還是有一個有嫉妒心在也確定判決了當然要去執行可是執行這個過程他必須要去檢視說關了多久有一段突然就憑空消失說那一段不算聽起來就怪怪好 但我尊重但是另外一個問題最後一個問題要請教就是說"},{"start":627.475,"end":653.093,"text":"台灣算變成一個超高齡化那超高齡化以後 監獄裡面 也一樣你看這十年裡面 我們家幾輩都年紀都大來 這個署長來 署長就感受非常深刻了就是說 有的人年紀比老那司法判決完以後 他當然是一種硬抱那一種硬抱 他本來該執行 他就要去執行可是從年輕關到老以後 碰到一個問題"},{"start":655.815,"end":672.504,"text":"你說你監獄裡面也高齡化 高齡化本來到監獄裡面去其實我們就是要矯正嘛 你如果叫做矯正署那矯正到最後人越多的時候 哇 這麻煩了 老人要照顧那如果去關於關於到老的六七十歲 七十歲八十歲的關於也都有嘛那這齁 人生都沒有希望啦 人如果關於久齁"},{"start":677.967,"end":682.108,"text":"出來的人 剛開始會來看啦久了就不來看了啦那變成他也孤獨 人生也沒有希望然後呢 這當然是他罪有應得可是呢 他出去以後 他又不曉得去找誰就變孤單老人啦像這個怎麼來處理我認為這個不是只有法務部不是只有絞證署的問題衛福部這個地方也要進來啊你說我們的長照"},{"start":705.235,"end":718.918,"text":"長照這個戲長照是針對所有的人嘛但是我們把監獄這一塊的壽星人把他給排除掉這也怪了你看監獄裡面我去看我都會假裝問一下年紀老的人年紀這麼多連台灣這個超高齡的一個社會監獄裡面老的也那麼多變成我們的介護人員也都要去幫忙也都要去幫忙是不是有什麼樣的一個制度對於這些"},{"start":733.982,"end":748.864,"text":"比較高齡的人引進衛福部家 你們再看一看可以更制度化的嗎你們當然有照顧我 我知道嘛但是那個是個別化他有沒有辦法全台灣的監獄裡面都一致性的"},{"start":750.646,"end":775.456,"text":"人必應越來越老嘛是 跟委員報告說我們今年才剛實施一個樂寧高齡受益型人的樂寧健康照顧計畫就是把這個區塊再做一個完全的盤點該在環境設施方面的該在醫療方面的該在心理層面的該在他將來富貴社會層面的我們都有逐項去做我們這樣的一個對高齡受益型人應該注意到的地方"},{"start":776.196,"end":782.163,"text":"這個包括長照部分的話,我們跟衛福都有討論過年紀大,身體一定壞啦是這不用騙的,這就說了,雖然他用冠,他什麼都用冠,他就犯罪當然他用冠,但現在問題是說除了這一個部分,我們本來那個地方叫做矯正的地方可是"},{"start":793.676,"end":813.812,"text":"官的年紀都會一直老化以後那這個要怎麼樣來制度性的來處理這些事情我的重點是在這個地方我們跟衛福部那一邊都有很多的密切的聯絡我們機關裡面也有設公司對他未來的復歸社會的安置問題醫療問題我們會同步來注意到"},{"start":817.502,"end":838.923,"text":"我意思是說,第一個你這個問題去處理的話,會減少我們介護人員你看我們的管理人員已經跟美國、日本比,我們差太多了我們一個管理人員要去照顧到的那些受刑人,你搞不好是將近一個人要照顧到九點多,快十個"},{"start":839.884,"end":850.512,"text":"美國日本 你看人家的卡丘 價有夠多像我的意思就是說 你這個長照的資源 護理 人力 怎麼樣去"},{"start":852.185,"end":858.35,"text":"制度化來幫你們解決這個問題我不是叫你們放人 不是放人的問題是關在裡面 這些人要怎麼處理有時候你只叫他出來走 他走路也走不太好不然你跟你的爸爸走 監獄的環境有時候我們到監獄裡面去看 去視察的時候你只要拎那個階梯 對那個老的來說 他就走不出來了"},{"start":873.198,"end":889.51,"text":"無障礙空間我們都有規劃來設置,療養區的無障礙空間,走路的、洗澡的、上廁所的這些無障礙空間我們都有規劃、都有設置。你如果想年紀比較大的,像博定我都覺得,如果符合假釋條件的,盡量處理。"},{"start":892.219,"end":897.581,"text":"外遺症的部分 搞不好都可以考慮我們現在不是放人我的意思是 碰到這一種喔不然你很麻煩的啦你一個關於80歲的人日日說 我來矯正你喔讓你要復歸社會讓你的燃脂重新得一個希望他家都不知道要找誰啊不然你跟人家家人都也不合理啊就是說這些人 你要把他們當成怎樣"},{"start":911.054,"end":925.706,"text":"這人健康在裡面,你又不是病院,監獄又不是醫院法務部你怎麼處理,你矯正署怎麼處理,光靠你們的力量沒辦法啦,你這個應該是看看那個衛福部那邊看能不能倒卡手長照資源,護理人在那裡,能不能進去"},{"start":929.025,"end":947.473,"text":"因為畢竟那不是養老的地方我們現在講基本的照顧不然你年紀越大我看你老的比例我看你的資料越來越多越來越多很麻煩我是覺得應該跨部會共同再看看有沒有辦法制度性的讓他更有更可以來"},{"start":949.374,"end":968.743,"text":"對這一些受刑人 尤其是高齡的人給一些阻礙 是好不好我們研究把這個我們的矯正機關納入這個長照2.0 3.0的一個修法的一個照顧的範圍裡面這個其實我會覺得法務部尤其矯正署應該是嚴肅去看待的一個問題啦好 謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}