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11:55:28","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）委員翁曉玲等24人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n【本次會議僅進行詢答】\n【7月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":0.03096875,"end":2.83221875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":3.99659375,"end":4.199093749999999,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":7.371593750000001,"end":13.244093750000001,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":13.699718750000002,"end":17.17596875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":14.42534375,"end":15.15096875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":17.42909375,"end":31.047218750000003,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":31.38471875,"end":32.29596875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":32.48159375,"end":33.814718750000004,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":34.16909375,"end":61.759718750000005,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":63.210968750000006,"end":64.34159375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":64.79721875,"end":69.01596875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":69.13409375,"end":124.39971875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":124.93971875000001,"end":125.78346875000001,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":126.08721875,"end":173.64096875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":174.24846875,"end":176.08784375000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":176.37471875,"end":177.30284375000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":177.45471875,"end":179.07471875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":179.41221875000002,"end":185.28471875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":186.04409375,"end":200.16846875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":200.45534375000003,"end":218.64659375000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":219.10221875000002,"end":221.68409375000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":221.83596875,"end":223.75971875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":224.45159375,"end":229.86846875,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":230.30721875,"end":240.61784375000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":240.61784375000002,"end":240.66846875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":241.36034375000003,"end":255.82221875000002,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":246.89534375000002,"end":247.85721875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":248.02596875,"end":249.91596875000002,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":256.63221875,"end":271.16159375,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":258.57284375,"end":260.19284375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":260.22659375,"end":261.15471875000003,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":261.18846875,"end":261.91409375,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":262.75784375,"end":264.29346875000005,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":264.76596875,"end":265.17096875000004,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":268.39409375,"end":269.84534375000004,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":271.16159375,"end":279.09284375000004,"speaker_score":0.942},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":271.17846875000004,"end":271.44846875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"鄭部長銘謙","start":279.09284375000004,"end":279.10971875,"speaker_score":0.967},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"莊委員瑞雄","start":279.97034375000004,"end":280.004093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你說一個案子到底要確定的話這個上級審在審酌說你強制編入案件為什麼沒有律師出來這個也麻煩 所以說律師 這個法務派出的律師在讓整個審判的一個過程裡面 讓他程序完全去合法確認說檢方提出來的證據 然後整個審判過程裡面"},{"start":112.521,"end":124.091,"text":"他是沒有瑕疵的其實這個某個程度來講的話對於整個司法的一個制度啊我個人倒認為是健康的啦認為是健康的只是說這個確實啊刑事案件"},{"start":125.017,"end":150.507,"text":"重罪的被害人那個加害人每一個看起來都是討厭的哪有一個加害人然後到法庭上去民眾會覺得說他好可憐的不至於有這樣的一個認定這是本席的一個看法但是我有一個問題要來救教我覺得蠻嚴肅的就是說這一次我們監獄行刑法的一個修正草案裡面你去看那個148條裡面那個第二項規定就是說死刑定讞如果說日後經撤銷改判"},{"start":151.667,"end":170.075,"text":"併驗撤銷改辦一定是非常上述的救濟你把它撤銷掉以後你們現在是說它待執行期間不得折抵刑期也不得記錄假釋跟已執行的期間我這個部分個人就有一點不一樣的看法"},{"start":171.015,"end":184.847,"text":"不管用什麼樣的一個名譽把一個被告把一個人關在監獄裡面你說不給羈押的也可以折抵任何你就改一個只要限制"},{"start":186.864,"end":213.76,"text":"人民的那個人生的一個自由的話用什麼樣的一個名目你把它限制你到最後說如果改判了改判完以後你說那個部分說變成不能折抵我也覺得很奇怪啊比如說你本來是一個重罪的定焉啦不要說死刑啊你是重罪的那後來法提起救濟制度非常上述然後判決下來他可能改判的變成是有嫉妒刑未必是無嫉妒刑是有嫉妒刑啊"},{"start":214.56,"end":239.811,"text":"那你如果在監獄裡面假設已經是關了八年十年那可是判決下來的時候你說他剩下搞不好是判的只多了一點點的話那前面你說不能折抵這個會不會覺得比較奇怪啊死刑判下來法院如果判下來變成有期徒刑你說不能折抵我不曉得你們把這部分排除掉的理由有沒有比較更堅強一點"},{"start":241.995,"end":254.933,"text":"這個委員應該很清楚 就是收容它並不是羈押但是也是人身自由的一個技術但是那個性質 因為法令本來 刑法本來 則底本來就是徒刑"},{"start":256.724,"end":278.157,"text":"就是徒刑...那個...部長我懂你的意思你就是說那個是我們法律的規定,折抵的是有期徒刑折抵本來就是建立那個...就是人身自由的法律處分跟那些徒刑、拘役跟罰金嘛我們如果把那個名詞先不管它的話那些名詞其實就是把人身自由給剝奪嘛"},{"start":281.015,"end":295.287,"text":"這是要代執行的 代執行之定驗的死刑犯這是一個過渡 這個是一定我想這個是 因為這個是代執行的一個是 代執行期間 我們現在講的對 我們講的當然是代執行 但是後來如果有一個判決"},{"start":300.66,"end":328.532,"text":"提起非常上訴啊 就是非常上訴的一個救濟制度就是在糾正下級審的一個判決可能就不適當啦 不要說違法啦但是其實這在講判決違法令才會非常上訴嘛那既然把原來不對的判決把它給撤銷掉然後再重新判了一個有期徒刑那你說那一段那個待執行期間只因為跟法條規定的名目不同可是實質上都是剝奪人身的一個自由"},{"start":329.172,"end":345.577,"text":"這個部分說不能去折抵我是覺得我們現在的理由裡面光講條文的這樣的一個解釋會不會有有沒有辦法通過憲法法庭的一個假設這個案子如果提起憲法救濟的話憲法法庭真的你們這樣的理由你們覺得夠堅強嗎"},{"start":348.043,"end":362.072,"text":"我想這個是本來就是要保全那個那個收容的這些我想這個跟我再重申就是跟性質跟目的不同而且我認為沒有說本來就帶子型的這個"},{"start":363.593,"end":378.731,"text":"定认的死刑犯他这边所容期间这个跟我们性质既然不同其实我们认为是本来就是没有去就是这些人身自由是不是要去折抵的这件事情我想我们立法就是这样的一个考量嘛"},{"start":379.312,"end":401.497,"text":"所以我想這是一個特別救濟程序 因為它是回廠上述而如果說有撤銷原判決 這個是很極端的例外的情形這個跟我們一般的判有期徒刑 那個還有說基於罰金或者那些保安處分的那部分的折抵這本來就是性質是不同嘛"},{"start":402.117,"end":418.335,"text":"性質上當然不同絕對是不同但是剝奪人身自由本質又相同我不能說把一個判死刑的還有在已經訂業還有什麼積壓的那個稅也沒有在延壓的問題也沒有這個問題嘛所以我想當時立法的一個考量本來就是要"},{"start":418.996,"end":438.039,"text":"要不同的一個一個立法的一個考量所以他不會用這是羈押定驗之後的就沒有羈押的這個死刑犯就沒有羈押的這些的法律上的一個性質所以他的進入不是羈押如果羈押的話我們都是有"},{"start":438.76,"end":462.63,"text":"有考慮到我們現在羈押期間跟次數的一個限制嘛這當然是一個保全的一個程序嘛但是這一種的定驗的我想一定要待執行之定驗的使刑犯這一段的時間可是部長我的意思是指說你原來那個你把他的人身自由剝奪是有一個"},{"start":463.81,"end":492.218,"text":"定驗的一個判決在可是你那個定驗的判決已經被撤銷掉啦我的重點在這個地方你撤銷掉以後不管他叫做什麼他就是關在那個地方關了幾年那這幾年都不算數法律上他如果說撤銷的另外都回復到羈押的問題因為確定定驗的確定判決被撤銷那個是另外如果說我再羈押那當然是可以折抵嘛那可以可以可以如果說改判揮死刑當然是可以折抵嘛"},{"start":492.714,"end":505.73,"text":"但是已經這一種的當時在定院之前的那些的那些當然收容期限其實本席的見解其實是這樣子啦我想這個法律規定的非常的明確同樣都是受到國家的拘禁我懂你們的意思啦"},{"start":509.054,"end":516.697,"text":"這一些其實我也不想再太多著墨那著墨以多所著墨反而讓人家覺得我們對那些很可惡的人好像幫他們開脫不是是因為說同樣遭受到國家的一個拘禁那遭受國家的一個拘禁那是因為有一個判決在那個判決如果被撤銷掉我剛才給你講的那些算假講的你未來給我看說我應該講十年我算算我就十年夠了你要給我放出來你說剛才那些都不算講的都變白講的這個也"},{"start":537.526,"end":555.574,"text":"那個其實113年憲判八字的判決的一個意思其實對這邊是有處理的是是有處理的這個區塊所以我們就會就會來提出法案等一下這個是我的疑慮啦疑病啦來做參考啦他有特別續名這個救濟程序喔特別救濟程序"},{"start":556.354,"end":573.901,"text":"這個特別的救濟跟刑事通常救濟程序是有別的所以這是一個通常救濟程序這個導致的一個特別救濟的例外情形沒有侵犯人身自由的一個疑慮所以這部分沒辦法去用增審中的這些的期間去做一個摺疊"},{"start":575.522,"end":603.851,"text":"沒辦法折抵 那我想這個這個委員 這部分我們是我也不去講說那個判決不夠進步啦但是其實有時候概念常常都是一個浮動我尊重 我尊重 我只是在講說同樣都是遭受到國家機關的一個拘禁剝奪人身自由 可是原來那個判決被撤銷掉了被撤銷到前面關了那一部分 你說不算只是因為它不符合法律規定的一個定義 可是對"},{"start":605.291,"end":626.774,"text":"對人民來講不管他是好人還是壞人他被判決以後還是有一個有嫉妒心在也確定判決了當然要去執行可是執行這個過程他必須要去檢視說關了多久有一段突然就憑空消失說那一段不算聽起來就怪怪好 但我尊重但是另外一個問題最後一個問題要請教就是說"},{"start":627.475,"end":653.093,"text":"台灣算變成一個超高齡化那超高齡化以後 監獄裡面 也一樣你看這十年裡面 我們家幾輩都年紀都大來 這個署長來 署長就感受非常深刻了就是說 有的人年紀比老那司法判決完以後 他當然是一種硬抱那一種硬抱 他本來該執行 他就要去執行可是從年輕關到老以後 碰到一個問題"},{"start":655.815,"end":672.504,"text":"你說你監獄裡面也高齡化 高齡化本來到監獄裡面去其實我們就是要矯正嘛 你如果叫做矯正署那矯正到最後人越多的時候 哇 這麻煩了 老人要照顧那如果去關於關於到老的六七十歲 七十歲八十歲的關於也都有嘛那這齁 人生都沒有希望啦 人如果關於久齁"},{"start":677.967,"end":682.108,"text":"出來的人 剛開始會來看啦久了就不來看了啦那變成他也孤獨 人生也沒有希望然後呢 這當然是他罪有應得可是呢 他出去以後 他又不曉得去找誰就變孤單老人啦像這個怎麼來處理我認為這個不是只有法務部不是只有絞證署的問題衛福部這個地方也要進來啊你說我們的長照"},{"start":705.235,"end":718.918,"text":"長照這個戲長照是針對所有的人嘛但是我們把監獄這一塊的壽星人把他給排除掉這也怪了你看監獄裡面我去看我都會假裝問一下年紀老的人年紀這麼多連台灣這個超高齡的一個社會監獄裡面老的也那麼多變成我們的介護人員也都要去幫忙也都要去幫忙是不是有什麼樣的一個制度對於這些"},{"start":733.982,"end":748.864,"text":"比較高齡的人引進衛福部家 你們再看一看可以更制度化的嗎你們當然有照顧我 我知道嘛但是那個是個別化他有沒有辦法全台灣的監獄裡面都一致性的"},{"start":750.646,"end":775.456,"text":"人必應越來越老嘛是 跟委員報告說我們今年才剛實施一個樂寧高齡受益型人的樂寧健康照顧計畫就是把這個區塊再做一個完全的盤點該在環境設施方面的該在醫療方面的該在心理層面的該在他將來富貴社會層面的我們都有逐項去做我們這樣的一個對高齡受益型人應該注意到的地方"},{"start":776.196,"end":782.163,"text":"這個包括長照部分的話,我們跟衛福都有討論過年紀大,身體一定壞啦是這不用騙的,這就說了,雖然他用冠,他什麼都用冠,他就犯罪當然他用冠,但現在問題是說除了這一個部分,我們本來那個地方叫做矯正的地方可是"},{"start":793.676,"end":813.812,"text":"官的年紀都會一直老化以後那這個要怎麼樣來制度性的來處理這些事情我的重點是在這個地方我們跟衛福部那一邊都有很多的密切的聯絡我們機關裡面也有設公司對他未來的復歸社會的安置問題醫療問題我們會同步來注意到"},{"start":817.502,"end":838.923,"text":"我意思是說,第一個你這個問題去處理的話,會減少我們介護人員你看我們的管理人員已經跟美國、日本比,我們差太多了我們一個管理人員要去照顧到的那些受刑人,你搞不好是將近一個人要照顧到九點多,快十個"},{"start":839.884,"end":850.512,"text":"美國日本 你看人家的卡丘 價有夠多像我的意思就是說 你這個長照的資源 護理 人力 怎麼樣去"},{"start":852.185,"end":858.35,"text":"制度化來幫你們解決這個問題我不是叫你們放人 不是放人的問題是關在裡面 這些人要怎麼處理有時候你只叫他出來走 他走路也走不太好不然你跟你的爸爸走 監獄的環境有時候我們到監獄裡面去看 去視察的時候你只要拎那個階梯 對那個老的來說 他就走不出來了"},{"start":873.198,"end":889.51,"text":"無障礙空間我們都有規劃來設置,療養區的無障礙空間,走路的、洗澡的、上廁所的這些無障礙空間我們都有規劃、都有設置。你如果想年紀比較大的,像博定我都覺得,如果符合假釋條件的,盡量處理。"},{"start":892.219,"end":897.581,"text":"外遺症的部分 搞不好都可以考慮我們現在不是放人我的意思是 碰到這一種喔不然你很麻煩的啦你一個關於80歲的人日日說 我來矯正你喔讓你要復歸社會讓你的燃脂重新得一個希望他家都不知道要找誰啊不然你跟人家家人都也不合理啊就是說這些人 你要把他們當成怎樣"},{"start":911.054,"end":925.706,"text":"這人健康在裡面,你又不是病院,監獄又不是醫院法務部你怎麼處理,你矯正署怎麼處理,光靠你們的力量沒辦法啦,你這個應該是看看那個衛福部那邊看能不能倒卡手長照資源,護理人在那裡,能不能進去"},{"start":929.025,"end":947.473,"text":"因為畢竟那不是養老的地方我們現在講基本的照顧不然你年紀越大我看你老的比例我看你的資料越來越多越來越多很麻煩我是覺得應該跨部會共同再看看有沒有辦法制度性的讓他更有更可以來"},{"start":949.374,"end":968.743,"text":"對這一些受刑人 尤其是高齡的人給一些阻礙 是好不好我們研究把這個我們的矯正機關納入這個長照2.0 3.0的一個修法的一個照顧的範圍裡面這個其實我會覺得法務部尤其矯正署應該是嚴肅去看待的一個問題啦好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:26.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:30.647000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長及矯正署署長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:32.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:36.551000+08:00","text":"請鄭部長及林署長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:36.551000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:38.332000+08:00","text":"召委早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:38.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:47.459000+08:00","text":"關於剛剛洪委員所提法扶律師去幫加害人辯護這件事情，我倒有一點不同的看法。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:48.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:54.362000+08:00","text":"譬如說一個醫生看到殺人犯把人家殺死了，結果被警察當場開槍打成重傷，但沒有擊斃，然後送到醫院去。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:54.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:56.123000+08:00","text":"其實醫生也不得不去救，因為總是要救了他以後，讓他繩之以法。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:56.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:47.122000+08:00","text":"同樣的，碰到重罪必須要強制辯護的或者碰到適用國民法官法的這些案件，我倒會覺得不一定要從好像都是在幫加害人辯護這樣的立場出發，很有可能有律師在的話，本來法律規定，除非你認為重罪不用強制辯護；既然要強制辯護的話，又沒有派出律師反而整個審判程序會違背法令，這個又不行！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:47.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:48.683000+08:00","text":"又讓他去上訴！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:48.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:51.365000+08:00","text":"你說一個案子到最後要確定的話，上級審在審酌時說：強制辯護案件為什麼沒有律師出來？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:51.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:51.485000+08:00","text":"這個也麻煩。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:51.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:11.382000+08:00","text":"所以法扶派出律師，讓整個審判過程的程序完全合法，確認檢方提出來的證據在整個審判過程裡面是沒有瑕疵的。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:11.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:18.989000+08:00","text":"其實這個某個程度來講，對於整個司法制度，我個人認為是健康的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:19.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:32.160000+08:00","text":"只是刑事案件重罪的加害人確實每個看起來都是討厭的，哪有一個加害人到法庭上去，民眾會覺得他好可憐的？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:32.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:35.102000+08:00","text":"不至於有這樣的認定，這是本席的看法。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:35.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:37.963000+08:00","text":"但是我有一個問題要來就教，我覺得蠻嚴肅的。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:38.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:42:08.055000+08:00","text":"這一次監獄行刑法修正草案第一百四十八條第二項規定，死刑定讞如果日後經撤銷改判，定讞撤銷改判一定是提請非常上訴救濟，把它撤銷掉以後，你們現在是說他待執行期間不得折抵刑期，也不得計入假釋已執行期間，這個部分我個人就有點不一樣的看法。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:42:09.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:42:37.171000+08:00","text":"不管用什麼樣的名義把被告關在監獄裡面，你說羈押的也可以折抵……只要限制人身自由的，不管用什麼樣的名目把它限制，到最後如果改判了，改判完以後，你說那個部分變成不能折抵，我也覺得很奇怪。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:42:37.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:42:51.660000+08:00","text":"比如說本來是重罪定讞了，不要說死刑，重罪後來提起救濟制度、非常上訴，然後判決下來，他可能改判變成有期徒刑，未必是無期徒刑，還是有期徒刑。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:42:52.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:09.848000+08:00","text":"如果在監獄裡面已經關了8年、10年，可是判決下來的時候，剩下……搞不好是判只多了一點點的話，前面你說不能折抵，這個會不會覺得比較奇怪？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:11.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:17.811000+08:00","text":"法院如果判下來從死刑變成有期徒刑，你說不能折抵，我不曉得你們把這部分排除掉的理由有沒有更堅強一點？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:19.995000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:23.961000+08:00","text":"委員應該很清楚，收容並不是羈押，也不是……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:24.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:26.484000+08:00","text":"但是也是人身自由的拘束。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:28.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:35.444000+08:00","text":"但是那個性質……因為刑法本來折抵的就是徒刑，判有期徒刑……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:37.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:38.006000+08:00","text":"部長，我懂你的意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:38.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:41.868000+08:00","text":"也就是說那是我們法律的規定，折抵的是有期徒刑。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:41.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:47.352000+08:00","text":"折抵本來就是限於有拘束人身自由的保安處分跟徒刑……","quality":0.696},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:47.352000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:48.352000+08:00","text":"那個是名詞而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:47.892000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:48.833000+08:00","text":"拘役跟罰金嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:49.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:59.015000+08:00","text":"如果名詞先不管它的話，那些名詞其實就是把人身自由給剝奪，難道不是這樣說嗎？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:59.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:09.724000+08:00","text":"這個是要待執行定讞的死刑犯，這是一個過渡……我想這個是因為待執行的……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:10.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:11.766000+08:00","text":"是，待執行期間，當然我們現在講的……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:11.766000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:12.766000+08:00","text":"當然性質及目的不同嘛！對。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:11.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:29.465000+08:00","text":"我們講的當然是待執行，但是後來如果有一個判決提起非常上訴，就是非常上訴的救濟制度，它就是在糾正下級審的判決可能不適當，不要說違法，但是其實就是在講判決違背法令才會非常上訴。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:30.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:03.577000+08:00","text":"既然把原來不對的判決撤銷掉，然後再重新判了一個有期徒刑，你說那一段待執行期間只因為跟法條規定的名目不同，可是實質上都是剝奪人身的自由，這個部分說不能折抵，我是覺得你們現在的理由裡面，光講條文這樣的解釋有沒有辦法通過憲法法庭的……這個案子如果提起憲法救濟的話，這樣的理由你們真的覺得夠堅強嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:06.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:36.531000+08:00","text":"我想這個本來就是要保全……我再重申，收容期間的性質、目的不同，而且我認為沒有錯，本來就待執行定讞的死刑犯，其收容期間性質既然不同，所以本來就沒有人身自由是不是要去折抵的實益，立法就是這樣的考量。","quality":0.747},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:37.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:44.974000+08:00","text":"所以這是一個特別救濟程序，因為他是非常上訴，如果因此而撤銷原判決……當然也有撤銷原判決的例外極端……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:44.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:45.974000+08:00","text":"撤銷原判決就是原判決不存在啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:44.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:50.975000+08:00","text":"這個是很極端的例外情形。是。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:51.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:59.297000+08:00","text":"這個跟一般判有期徒刑還有拘役、罰金或者保安處分的折抵，本來就是性質不同。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:00.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.439000+08:00","text":"性質上當然不同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.819000+08:00","text":"絕對是不同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:04.582000+08:00","text":"但是剝奪人身自由的本質又相同。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:04.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:33.596000+08:00","text":"我不能說一個已經判死刑定讞的還有什麼羈押的必要，那個沒有再延押的問題，所以我想立法時本來就是有不同的立法考量，所以不會用羈押，定讞之後，死刑犯就沒有羈押這些法律上的性質，所以他不是羈押。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:34.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:44.443000+08:00","text":"如果是羈押的話，我們都有考慮到譬如羈押期間跟次數的限制，這當然是一個保全程序。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:45.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:52.546000+08:00","text":"但是這種定讞的，待執行之定讞的死刑犯這一段時間……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:52.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:07.452000+08:00","text":"可是部長，我的意思是指原來把他的人身自由剝奪是因為有定讞的判決在，可是該定讞的判決已經被撤銷掉了，我的重點在這個地方。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:08.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:15.934000+08:00","text":"撤銷掉以後，不管他叫做什麼，他就是關在那個地方關了幾年，這幾年都不算數？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:15.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:16.234000+08:00","text":"法理上……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:16.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:36.481000+08:00","text":"如果有撤銷，那就是回復到羈押的問題，因為定讞的確定判決被撤銷，如果再羈押，當然是可以折抵，如果改判非死刑，當然是可以折抵，但在定讞之前的收容期間沒辦法折抵。","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:36.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:42.569000+08:00","text":"其實我本席的見解是這樣子，我覺得同樣都是受到國家拘禁……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:42.569000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:43.569000+08:00","text":"我想法律規定非常明確，我們只是要把監獄行刑法做一個明確的規定而已。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:42.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:43.590000+08:00","text":"我懂你們的意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:47.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:50.876000+08:00","text":"其實我也不想再有太多著墨，多所著墨反而讓人家覺得我們好像在幫那些很可惡的人開脫，不是！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:50.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:53.097000+08:00","text":"是因為同樣遭受國家拘禁，遭受國家拘禁是因為有一個判決在，那個判決如果被撤銷掉，前面被關的算是多關的。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:53.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:54.677000+08:00","text":"後來判我應該關10年，我算一算，我10年到了，你要放我出來，你說沒有，前面那些都不算數，關的就變白關，這個也……","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:16.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:26.711000+08:00","text":"委員，113年憲判字第8號判決的意旨對這邊是有處理的，有處理這個區塊，所以我們就提出草案。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:27.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:30.112000+08:00","text":"這是我的疑慮，請一併參考。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:30.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:33.554000+08:00","text":"憲判有特別敘明特別救濟程序。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:34.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:54.042000+08:00","text":"特別救濟與刑事通常救濟程序有別，這是一個通常救濟程序導致特別救濟的例外情形，沒有侵犯人身自由的疑慮，所以這部分沒辦法用偵審中的這些期間折抵，沒辦法折抵。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長銘謙","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:56.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:57.963000+08:00","text":"委員，這部分我們不是沒有依據的。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:59.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:08.086000+08:00","text":"我也不去講那個判決不夠進步，但是其實有時候概念常常都是浮動的，我尊重、我尊重！","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:08.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:32.021000+08:00","text":"只是講到同樣都是遭受國家機關拘禁，剝奪人身自由，可是原來的判決被撤銷掉了，被撤銷掉前面關的那一部分你說不算，只是因為他不符合法律規定的定義，可是對人民來講，不管他是好人還是壞人，他被判決以後，還是有一個有期徒刑在，也確定判決了，當然要去執行。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:32.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:41.751000+08:00","text":"可是執行的這個過程，必須要去檢視他關了多久，而且有一段突然就憑空消失說那一段不算，聽起來怪怪的，但我尊重！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:43.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:52.300000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題要請教，臺灣算是變成超高齡化社會，超高齡化以後，監獄裡面也一樣。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:52.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:53.581000+08:00","text":"你看這十年裡多了幾倍？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:53.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:54.381000+08:00","text":"年紀都大了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:54.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:56.743000+08:00","text":"署長來，署長就感受非常深刻了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:56.743000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:58.524000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:58.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:08.831000+08:00","text":"有的人年輕進去關到老，司法判決完以後……這當然是一種應報，本來該執行就要去執行。","quality":0.771},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:09.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:16.056000+08:00","text":"可是從年輕關到老就碰到一個問題了，就是監獄裡面也高齡化！","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:16.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:21.159000+08:00","text":"本來到監獄裡面去是為了要矯正，不然為什麼叫做矯正署？","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:22.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:30.144000+08:00","text":"矯正到最後人越來越多，這麻煩了，老人要照護，關到六十歲、七十歲、八十歲的都有，這些人人生都沒希望了。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:36.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:38.968000+08:00","text":"家裡的人剛開始會來看，關久了就不來看了，結果他變成孤獨，人生又沒有希望，當然這是他罪有應得，可是他出去以後，又不曉得要去找誰，就變成孤單老人了，像這個問題怎麼處理？","quality":0.822},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:38.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:39.868000+08:00","text":"我認為這不只是法務部、矯正署的工作，衛福部在這個時候也要進來。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:40.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:11.917000+08:00","text":"我們的長照是針對所有的人，但我們如果把監獄受刑人排除掉，這也怪。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:12.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:15.678000+08:00","text":"我去監獄看的時候，多少都會問一下年紀，也驚訝老的人那麼多，臺灣這個超高齡社會，連監獄裡面的老人也那麼多，變成我們的戒護人員都要去幫忙。","quality":0.754},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:15.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:37.590000+08:00","text":"是不是有什麼樣的制度，對於這些高齡的受刑人，請衛福部協助，看能不能制度化一點？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:38.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:46.844000+08:00","text":"我知道你們當然有在照顧，但是那是個別化，有沒有辦法讓全臺灣的監獄都有一致性的照護措施？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:48.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:49.726000+08:00","text":"因為人畢竟越來越老嘛。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:49.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:00.871000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，我們今年才剛實施高齡受刑人的樂齡健康照護計畫，可以把這個區塊再做完全的盤點。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:00.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:16.439000+08:00","text":"在環境設施方面、醫療方面、在心理層面及他將來復歸社會層面的，我們都有逐項去檢視，甚至包括長照部分，我們都有跟衛福部討論過。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:16.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:17.260000+08:00","text":"署長，年紀大，身體一定不好啦，這也不用騙了。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:17.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:38.261000+08:00","text":"雖然他被關，他犯罪當然要被關，現在問題就是本來那個地方是矯正的地方，可是被關的人一直老化以後，這要怎麼樣制度性的處理？","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:39.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:40.803000+08:00","text":"我的重點是在這個地方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:40.803000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:42.985000+08:00","text":"只靠你們，我看你們錢也不夠。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:42.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:51.752000+08:00","text":"會啦，我們跟衛福部都有很多密切的聯絡，我們機關裡面也有社工師，對他未來復歸社會的安置問題、醫療問題，我們都會同步注意。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:57.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:01.648000+08:00","text":"第一、你處理了這個問題，可以減少戒護人員的負擔。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:01.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:05.832000+08:00","text":"事實上我們的管理人員跟美國、日本比，已經差太多了！","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:06.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:22.007000+08:00","text":"我們一個管理人員要照顧的受刑人，搞不好將近九點多，快十個人，可是美國、日本，人家的人手多得多了。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:23.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:31.446000+08:00","text":"我的意思就是長照資源、護理人力怎麼樣去制度化幫你們解決這個問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:31.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:32.467000+08:00","text":"我不是要你們放人，不是放人的問題，而是關在裡面的這些人要怎麼處理？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:32.507000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:36.330000+08:00","text":"有時候你只是叫他出來走，可是他走路也走不好，不然就是跌跤，有時候我們到監獄裡面視察就知道，光是你們那些階梯，對那些老的來說，他就走不出去了。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:51.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:01.826000+08:00","text":"無障礙空間我們都有規劃設置，療養區的無障礙空間，不管是走路的、洗澡的、上廁所的，這些無障礙空間我們都有規劃、都有設置。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:03.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:11.720000+08:00","text":"像年紀比較大的這些，部長，我都覺得如果符合假釋條件的，趕快讓他出去，外役監的部分搞不好都可以考慮。","quality":0.705},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:11.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:14.041000+08:00","text":"我們現在不是放人，我的意思是碰到這一種，你很麻煩，關一個八十歲的人，說我來矯正你，讓你要復歸社會，讓你重燃希望，他出去都不知道要找誰了！","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:14.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:15.561000+08:00","text":"說不定他的家人也不理他了，這些人你要怎麼辦？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:31.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:34.178000+08:00","text":"監獄又不是醫院，法務部要怎麼處理？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:34.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:35.279000+08:00","text":"矯正署要怎麼處理？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:35.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:38.322000+08:00","text":"光靠你們的力量沒辦法啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:38.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:42.845000+08:00","text":"你應該看看衛福部能不能幫忙，引進長照資源、護理人力。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:47.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:53.048000+08:00","text":"我覺得畢竟那邊又不是養老的地方，我現在是說基本的照護，不然他們年紀越來越大。","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:53.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:59.191000+08:00","text":"我看你們提供的資料，這樣的人越來越多，會很麻煩。","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:59.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:11.156000+08:00","text":"我是覺得應該跨部會共同再看看，有沒有辦法制度性的讓這一些受刑人，尤其是高齡受刑人多一些資源。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"林署長憲銘","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:12.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:21.081000+08:00","text":"是，我們來研究，把我們的矯正機關納入長照2.0、3.0修法的照顧範圍。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:22.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:26.743000+08:00","text":"我覺得這是法務部尤其矯正署應該嚴肅去看待的問題。謝謝。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:27.243000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:29.528714+08:00","text":"謝謝莊召委的發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:29.828714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:58.114429+08:00","text":"其實剛剛莊召委講的，有關於死刑定讞經撤銷改判的收容期間的看法，其實跟我一開始質詢時的看法是一致的，我們真的覺得這也涉及有點侵害、違反這些受刑人人權的問題，希望法務部未來在修法的方向上，討論的時候可能還要再多斟酌。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:58.414429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:14.985857+08:00","text":"今天所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束；委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:15.285857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:31.000143+08:00","text":"我還要再提醒的就是，剛剛沈發惠委員也有提出，針對這次監獄行刑法的修法，因為還有蠻多條文法務部到目前為止還沒有提出對案。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:31.300143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:39.300143+08:00","text":"剛剛部長說已經有在討論了，我們希望能夠加速整個審議進度，好嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:39.600143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:42.457286+08:00","text":"然後儘速送到立法院來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:42.757286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:46.185857+08:00","text":"因為這些法案我們可能也會……","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時39分）謝謝主席，有請法務部鄭部長及矯正署署長。"],["主席：請鄭部長及林署長。"],["鄭部長銘謙：召委早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：關於剛剛洪委員所提法扶律師去幫加害人辯護這件事情，我倒有一點不同的看法。譬如說一個醫生看到殺人犯把人家殺死了，結果被警察當場開槍打成重傷，但沒有擊斃，然後送到醫院去。其實醫生也不得不去救，因為總是要救了他以後，讓他繩之以法。同樣的，碰到重罪必須要強制辯護的或者碰到適用國民法官法的這些案件，我倒會覺得不一定要從好像都是在幫加害人辯護這樣的立場出發，很有可能有律師在的話，本來法律規定，除非你認為重罪不用強制辯護；既然要強制辯護的話，又沒有派出律師反而整個審判程序會違背法令，這個又不行！又讓他去上訴！你說一個案子到最後要確定的話，上級審在審酌時說：強制辯護案件為什麼沒有律師出來？這個也麻煩。所以法扶派出律師，讓整個審判過程的程序完全合法，確認檢方提出來的證據在整個審判過程裡面是沒有瑕疵的。其實這個某個程度來講，對於整個司法制度，我個人認為是健康的。只是刑事案件重罪的加害人確實每個看起來都是討厭的，哪有一個加害人到法庭上去，民眾會覺得他好可憐的？不至於有這樣的認定，這是本席的看法。","但是我有一個問題要來就教，我覺得蠻嚴肅的。這一次監獄行刑法修正草案第一百四十八條第二項規定，死刑定讞如果日後經撤銷改判，定讞撤銷改判一定是提請非常上訴救濟，把它撤銷掉以後，你們現在是說他待執行期間不得折抵刑期，也不得計入假釋已執行期間，這個部分我個人就有點不一樣的看法。不管用什麼樣的名義把被告關在監獄裡面，你說羈押的也可以折抵……只要限制人身自由的，不管用什麼樣的名目把它限制，到最後如果改判了，改判完以後，你說那個部分變成不能折抵，我也覺得很奇怪。比如說本來是重罪定讞了，不要說死刑，重罪後來提起救濟制度、非常上訴，然後判決下來，他可能改判變成有期徒刑，未必是無期徒刑，還是有期徒刑。如果在監獄裡面已經關了8年、10年，可是判決下來的時候，剩下……搞不好是判只多了一點點的話，前面你說不能折抵，這個會不會覺得比較奇怪？法院如果判下來從死刑變成有期徒刑，你說不能折抵，我不曉得你們把這部分排除掉的理由有沒有更堅強一點？"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員應該很清楚，收容並不是羈押，也不是……"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是也是人身自由的拘束。"],["鄭部長銘謙：但是那個性質……因為刑法本來折抵的就是徒刑，判有期徒刑……"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，我懂你的意思。也就是說那是我們法律的規定，折抵的是有期徒刑。"],["鄭部長銘謙：折抵本來就是限於有拘束人身自由的保安處分跟徒刑……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那個是名詞而已。"],["鄭部長銘謙：拘役跟罰金嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：如果名詞先不管它的話，那些名詞其實就是把人身自由給剝奪，難道不是這樣說嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是要待執行定讞的死刑犯，這是一個過渡……我想這個是因為待執行的……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，待執行期間，當然我們現在講的……"],["鄭部長銘謙：當然性質及目的不同嘛！"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。我們講的當然是待執行，但是後來如果有一個判決提起非常上訴，就是非常上訴的救濟制度，它就是在糾正下級審的判決可能不適當，不要說違法，但是其實就是在講判決違背法令才會非常上訴。既然把原來不對的判決撤銷掉，然後再重新判了一個有期徒刑，你說那一段待執行期間只因為跟法條規定的名目不同，可是實質上都是剝奪人身的自由，這個部分說不能折抵，我是覺得你們現在的理由裡面，光講條文這樣的解釋有沒有辦法通過憲法法庭的……這個案子如果提起憲法救濟的話，這樣的理由你們真的覺得夠堅強嗎？"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想這個本來就是要保全……我再重申，收容期間的性質、目的不同，而且我認為沒有錯，本來就待執行定讞的死刑犯，其收容期間性質既然不同，所以本來就沒有人身自由是不是要去折抵的實益，立法就是這樣的考量。所以這是一個特別救濟程序，因為他是非常上訴，如果因此而撤銷原判決……當然也有撤銷原判決的例外極端……"],["莊委員瑞雄：撤銷原判決就是原判決不存在啦！"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個是很極端的例外情形。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。"],["鄭部長銘謙：這個跟一般判有期徒刑還有拘役、罰金或者保安處分的折抵，本來就是性質不同。"],["莊委員瑞雄：性質上當然不同。"],["鄭部長銘謙：絕對是不同。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是剝奪人身自由的本質又相同。"],["鄭部長銘謙：我不能說一個已經判死刑定讞的還有什麼羈押的必要，那個沒有再延押的問題，所以我想立法時本來就是有不同的立法考量，所以不會用羈押，定讞之後，死刑犯就沒有羈押這些法律上的性質，所以他不是羈押。如果是羈押的話，我們都有考慮到譬如羈押期間跟次數的限制，這當然是一個保全程序。但是這種定讞的，待執行之定讞的死刑犯這一段時間……"],["莊委員瑞雄：可是部長，我的意思是指原來把他的人身自由剝奪是因為有定讞的判決在，可是該定讞的判決已經被撤銷掉了，我的重點在這個地方。撤銷掉以後，不管他叫做什麼，他就是關在那個地方關了幾年，這幾年都不算數？法理上……"],["鄭部長銘謙：如果有撤銷，那就是回復到羈押的問題，因為定讞的確定判決被撤銷，如果再羈押，當然是可以折抵，如果改判非死刑，當然是可以折抵，但在定讞之前的收容期間沒辦法折抵。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實我本席的見解是這樣子，我覺得同樣都是受到國家拘禁……"],["鄭部長銘謙：我想法律規定非常明確，我們只是要把監獄行刑法做一個明確的規定而已。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我懂你們的意思。其實我也不想再有太多著墨，多所著墨反而讓人家覺得我們好像在幫那些很可惡的人開脫，不是！是因為同樣遭受國家拘禁，遭受國家拘禁是因為有一個判決在，那個判決如果被撤銷掉，前面被關的算是多關的。後來判我應該關10年，我算一算，我10年到了，你要放我出來，你說沒有，前面那些都不算數，關的就變白關，這個也……"],["鄭部長銘謙：委員，113年憲判字第8號判決的意旨對這邊是有處理的，有處理這個區塊，所以我們就提出草案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是我的疑慮，請一併參考。"],["鄭部長銘謙：憲判有特別敘明特別救濟程序。特別救濟與刑事通常救濟程序有別，這是一個通常救濟程序導致特別救濟的例外情形，沒有侵犯人身自由的疑慮，所以這部分沒辦法用偵審中的這些期間折抵，沒辦法折抵。委員，這部分我們不是沒有依據的。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我也不去講那個判決不夠進步，但是其實有時候概念常常都是浮動的，我尊重、我尊重！只是講到同樣都是遭受國家機關拘禁，剝奪人身自由，可是原來的判決被撤銷掉了，被撤銷掉前面關的那一部分你說不算，只是因為他不符合法律規定的定義，可是對人民來講，不管他是好人還是壞人，他被判決以後，還是有一個有期徒刑在，也確定判決了，當然要去執行。可是執行的這個過程，必須要去檢視他關了多久，而且有一段突然就憑空消失說那一段不算，聽起來怪怪的，但我尊重！","最後一個問題要請教，臺灣算是變成超高齡化社會，超高齡化以後，監獄裡面也一樣。你看這十年裡多了幾倍？年紀都大了。署長來，署長就感受非常深刻了。"],["林署長憲銘：謝謝委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：有的人年輕進去關到老，司法判決完以後……這當然是一種應報，本來該執行就要去執行。可是從年輕關到老就碰到一個問題了，就是監獄裡面也高齡化！本來到監獄裡面去是為了要矯正，不然為什麼叫做矯正署？矯正到最後人越來越多，這麻煩了，老人要照護，關到六十歲、七十歲、八十歲的都有，這些人人生都沒希望了。家裡的人剛開始會來看，關久了就不來看了，結果他變成孤獨，人生又沒有希望，當然這是他罪有應得，可是他出去以後，又不曉得要去找誰，就變成孤單老人了，像這個問題怎麼處理？我認為這不只是法務部、矯正署的工作，衛福部在這個時候也要進來。我們的長照是針對所有的人，但我們如果把監獄受刑人排除掉，這也怪。我去監獄看的時候，多少都會問一下年紀，也驚訝老的人那麼多，臺灣這個超高齡社會，連監獄裡面的老人也那麼多，變成我們的戒護人員都要去幫忙。是不是有什麼樣的制度，對於這些高齡的受刑人，請衛福部協助，看能不能制度化一點？我知道你們當然有在照顧，但是那是個別化，有沒有辦法讓全臺灣的監獄都有一致性的照護措施？因為人畢竟越來越老嘛。"],["林署長憲銘：是，跟委員報告，我們今年才剛實施高齡受刑人的樂齡健康照護計畫，可以把這個區塊再做完全的盤點。在環境設施方面、醫療方面、在心理層面及他將來復歸社會層面的，我們都有逐項去檢視，甚至包括長照部分，我們都有跟衛福部討論過。"],["莊委員瑞雄：署長，年紀大，身體一定不好啦，這也不用騙了。雖然他被關，他犯罪當然要被關，現在問題就是本來那個地方是矯正的地方，可是被關的人一直老化以後，這要怎麼樣制度性的處理？我的重點是在這個地方。只靠你們，我看你們錢也不夠。"],["林署長憲銘：會啦，我們跟衛福部都有很多密切的聯絡，我們機關裡面也有社工師，對他未來復歸社會的安置問題、醫療問題，我們都會同步注意。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我的意思是：第一、你處理了這個問題，可以減少戒護人員的負擔。事實上我們的管理人員跟美國、日本比，已經差太多了！我們一個管理人員要照顧的受刑人，搞不好將近九點多，快十個人，可是美國、日本，人家的人手多得多了。我的意思就是長照資源、護理人力怎麼樣去制度化幫你們解決這個問題？我不是要你們放人，不是放人的問題，而是關在裡面的這些人要怎麼處理？有時候你只是叫他出來走，可是他走路也走不好，不然就是跌跤，有時候我們到監獄裡面視察就知道，光是你們那些階梯，對那些老的來說，他就走不出去了。"],["林署長憲銘：無障礙空間我們都有規劃設置，療養區的無障礙空間，不管是走路的、洗澡的、上廁所的，這些無障礙空間我們都有規劃、都有設置。"],["莊委員瑞雄：像年紀比較大的這些，部長，我都覺得如果符合假釋條件的，趕快讓他出去，外役監的部分搞不好都可以考慮。我們現在不是放人，我的意思是碰到這一種，你很麻煩，關一個八十歲的人，說我來矯正你，讓你要復歸社會，讓你重燃希望，他出去都不知道要找誰了！說不定他的家人也不理他了，這些人你要怎麼辦？監獄又不是醫院，法務部要怎麼處理？矯正署要怎麼處理？光靠你們的力量沒辦法啦！你應該看看衛福部能不能幫忙，引進長照資源、護理人力。我覺得畢竟那邊又不是養老的地方，我現在是說基本的照護，不然他們年紀越來越大。我看你們提供的資料，這樣的人越來越多，會很麻煩。我是覺得應該跨部會共同再看看，有沒有辦法制度性的讓這一些受刑人，尤其是高齡受刑人多一些資源。"],["林署長憲銘：是，我們來研究，把我們的矯正機關納入長照2.0、3.0修法的照顧範圍。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得這是法務部尤其矯正署應該嚴肅去看待的問題。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊召委的發言。","其實剛剛莊召委講的，有關於死刑定讞經撤銷改判的收容期間的看法，其實跟我一開始質詢時的看法是一致的，我們真的覺得這也涉及有點侵害、違反這些受刑人人權的問題，希望法務部未來在修法的方向上，討論的時候可能還要再多斟酌。","今天所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束；委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","我還要再提醒的就是，剛剛沈發惠委員也有提出，針對這次監獄行刑法的修法，因為還有蠻多條文法務部到目前為止還沒有提出對案。剛剛部長說已經有在討論了，我們希望能夠加速整個審議進度，好嗎？然後儘速送到立法院來。因為這些法案我們可能也會……"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-24","speakers":["翁曉玲","陳昭姿","張雅琳","林倩綺","沈發惠","范雲","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","莊瑞雄","林沛祥","吳宗憲","蔡其昌","邱鎮軍","傅崐萁"],"page_start":255,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第24次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查（一）行政院函請審議「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」\n案、（二）委員李柏毅等16人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條條文修正草案」案、（三）委員\n王義川等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（四）委\n員吳思瑤等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（五）\n委員羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法第六十三條條文修正草案」案、（六）委員徐欣瑩等17人擬\n具「監獄行刑法第一百四十八條及第一百五十六條條文修正草案」案、（七）委員翁曉玲等24人\n擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（八）委員邱鎮軍等20人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文\n修正草案」案、（九）委員林倩綺等19人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案、（十）委員\n羅智強等17人擬具「監獄行刑法部分條文修正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1155901_00006"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}