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總委部長 陳行剛你委員說的檢報不要做太多 我這次又沒帶檢報了 就直接跟您請教還記得上週我跟您就教有關於四個版本包括行政院版 國眾兩黨 以及我個人的版本這四個版本我做了一個比較 對不對我還記得那時候我跟部長說 哎呀 這個看起來呢行政院的最聚焦在軍備採購"},{"start":34.685,"end":60.809,"text":"國民黨的版本比較完整似乎讓部長誤以為好像我認為國民黨的黨團版比行政院版好應該不會有這樣的誤會吧因為那是AI做的AI都是只說好話只說正向但是呢縱使如此啊到了隔天的院會這版本當中呢我都沒有批評其他黨的版本但是我個人版本就被丟包了部長你知道這件事嗎"},{"start":61.889,"end":85.763,"text":"我有看到新聞您看到新聞那我們今天討論的是少子化的因應對策您覺得一個兵多將廣人口眾多的國家當面對到這種國家我們國家人口不多我們要怎麼樣扭轉這個劣勢烏克蘭是不是做了一個很好的示範是烏克蘭他雖然人口較俄羅斯少但他充分運用無人載具扭轉了這樣一個人口的劣勢是嗎 部長"},{"start":87.202,"end":102.028,"text":"我想充分應用一個不對稱的一個作戰的概念是的好那接下來我再回到我們上週五副委的這幾個版本您知道後來行政院版國防採購的部分不是交到國防委員會主審交到經濟委員會主審了您知道嗎是然後還有聯席財政跟經濟"},{"start":107.191,"end":114.916,"text":"他交到經濟委員會主審聯席國防跟財政對不對您覺得行政院版沒有交到國防來審查交給經濟委員會來審查雖然我是經濟委員會的委員您覺得"},{"start":120.701,"end":149.16,"text":"這樣子會有什麼影響國防部的立場還是希望我們就這個符合作案需求的這幾個特定的採購項目那我們希望國防部來主導這個這個所謂相關的這些近近備戰所需要的這些採購的事項那主管機關是國防部那當然是希望由外交管委員會跟財政委員會來聯繫審查而不是由經濟委員會那我們也不希望是我們的採購條例我們也不希望主管機關是經濟部"},{"start":150.641,"end":173.062,"text":"很好,很清楚,因為行政院版很清楚的就是為了因應國防採購要動之特別預算,所以用特別條例的方式由國防部來做主管機關那麼由國防外交來主審這些軍備的採購那您看過另外的版本,國中兩黨的版本嗎?是你知道他們的版本是偏向產業發展是不是?"},{"start":177.58,"end":196.736,"text":"民眾黨版本是沒有提到這些採購的國民黨的部分他確實有提到一個兩千四百億的部分但是他兩千四百億的部分是說要納入年度預算年度預算他又在法例裡面直接說要編四百億"},{"start":198.618,"end":212.713,"text":"但是沒有說414要買軍備喔他如果是產業發展的條例他另外有一條是說他那個有三個用途那當然包括說要採購各式的無人載具然後還有一些是為了產業發展的補助然後還有"},{"start":216.417,"end":232.874,"text":"場域場域的部分大概他把他全部都包在一起那他的無人載具的暗像也沒有明確是的所以這就是社會也是最大的疑慮今天沒有錯無人載具的發展不管商用民用都是前途可及未來"},{"start":233.835,"end":251.327,"text":"可期待但是目前國家最迫切需要的就是透過這樣的國防採購將我們軍備不增身戰力先充實起來那不是如果不是採購國防軍備採購其他的無人載運我們也支持但是輕重緩急要明顯的區隔所以行政院版聚焦在"},{"start":252.589,"end":260.137,"text":"特定機型做軍備使用而產業輔導那另外我們經濟部去做產業輔導是另外的事情但是國民黨雖然是2400億比較多比2100億多但是年度預算400億寫的項目呢又不限定在軍備採購還包含了很多的產業輔導項目難免會有資源上沒有辦法集中投入的部分"},{"start":273.01,"end":302.009,"text":"所以部長那如果再有其他的版本送到院會來你會支持國防採購的版本放在國防外交審查嗎我們我們國防部的立場應該是很清楚就是我們透過這個行政院提出的這個特別條例我們是基於我們的作戰需求所以我們採購的這個項目已經特定也就是我們濱海健身型的無人機濱海攻擊型無人機跟小型炸無人艇這個是在這個我們整個防衛作戰"},{"start":302.549,"end":328.485,"text":"需求上面 迫切需要的那我們希望建立一個飛鴻供應鏈的韌性那所以呢 這些項目 擺進來這些項目都是屬於國內可以自主來成製的那這樣子的自主成製我們產生一個飛鴻供應鏈一個健康的一個產業鏈那就可以在一旦任何狀況的時候呢我們都可以有一定的作戰韌性很好 其實我覺得我跟部長的想法相當一致啊"},{"start":328.985,"end":346.899,"text":"因為雖然上週呢你好像對我剛的描述有些誤會那高層說中央病院委員你怎麼會認為行政院版的不如國民黨版的沒有我現在告訴你這些想法我給一個我再一個機會我現在把行政院版就是您說的國防採購我再加上了原來我的版本當中產業扶老部分"},{"start":347.478,"end":355.886,"text":"放到我的新的版本當中而且主管機關就是國防部但是涉及到產業輔導部分另外由行政院成立一個委員會來輔導那我們裡面的預算完全用行政院版2100萬的特別預算2100億2100億特別預算而且項目就在這幾項"},{"start":367.176,"end":390.387,"text":"就是把國防部的解釋上列入我們優先採購的對象那至於行政院的那個委員會要做產業輔導的要空域海域的劃定要一些法令的鬆綁那是屬於不太需要預算投注的投注去採購的部分來做產業輔導那未來我們像這個版本我也是希望院會支持交付委員審查的時候是放到外交國防頂多是聯席經濟或者財政來審查"},{"start":394.369,"end":423.007,"text":"那這樣子呢 就可以幫忙行政院版現在被交到經濟主審了那我希望呢 類似的版本部長願不願意回去參考一下我提供一份給您那我們努力的讓他交付給國防委員會來審查好不好報告委員 我覺得兩件事情還是要分開我們的採購條例 我們的採購是國防部主管的機關那我們就是採購我們合乎我們作戰需求的這個項目產業發展 產業補助 或者怎麼樣這個是可能要另外一個條例"},{"start":423.607,"end":448.574,"text":"那這個是屬於經濟部主管這兩個要分開來不能夠放在同一個條例裡面那個部長我了解您的用心良苦啦但是你還沒看到我的版本不用這麼早下定論說不定你看我的版本之後發現說中委員在提出新版本呢兩千一百億特別預算通通用在國防部的軍備採購其他產業輔導部分交由行政院的委員會去輔導這樣子說不定也切合國防部的需求委員的主管機關是國防部"},{"start":450.094,"end":462.304,"text":"那國安部在這個同時條例裡面國安部要去負責產業發展跟產業補助行政院設一個委員會來我給你看一下行政院應設立無人載具自主發展委員會做這些事情"},{"start":463.103,"end":482.289,"text":"所以部長我知道你很辛苦但是委員在提出想要幫忙的時候呢也請你呢可以了解一下我們的熱心也是我們的童心那我們希望呢一起來推動好不好是的是的我想我們再檢視一下委員的版本然後我們再做那個但是我們當然還是我們官部隊還是希望能夠盡速達成我們的採購目的"},{"start":484.09,"end":488.934,"text":"沒有問題本條例之主管機關是國防部行政院的委員會負責產業輔導希望部長回去請我們部裡面的同仁研議一下我希望呢不至於在街道高層的關切誤以為說我不支持國防部或行政院的版本我也希望說這樣的版本能夠協助我們國防的採購也能夠協助產業的輔導發展謝謝謝謝部長謝謝委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:58+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:59+08:00","text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士和先生。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:58.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:58.390000+08:00","text":"有請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:58.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:58.410000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:58.410000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:11.604000+08:00","text":"鍾委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:11.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:12.405000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:12.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:16.309000+08:00","text":"承襲剛剛牛委員說的簡報不要做太多，我這一次沒有帶簡報，就直接跟您請教。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:17.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:42.974000+08:00","text":"我記得上週有跟您就教有關於4個版本，包括行政院版、國眾兩黨以及我個人的版本，我就這4個版本做了一個比較，我還記得那時候我跟部長說，看起來行政院的版本最聚焦在軍備採購，國民黨的版本比較完整，似乎讓部長誤以為好像我認為國民黨黨團版比行政院版好，應該不會有這樣的誤會吧？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:43.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:47.038000+08:00","text":"因為那個是AI做的，AI都是只說好話、只說正向。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:47.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:58.809000+08:00","text":"但是縱使如此，到了隔天的院會，我都沒有批評其他黨的版本，但是我個人的版本就被丟包了，部長，你知道這件事嗎？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:59.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:01.070000+08:00","text":"我有看到新聞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:01.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:14.238000+08:00","text":"你有看到新聞，我們今天討論的是少子化的因應對策，我們國家的人口不多，如果面對一個兵多將廣、人口眾多的國家，您覺得我們要怎麼樣扭轉這個劣勢？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:14.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:17.099000+08:00","text":"烏克蘭是不是做了一個很好的示範？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:17.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:23.743000+08:00","text":"部長，烏克蘭雖然人口較俄羅斯少，但是充分運用無人載具去扭轉了人口的劣勢，是嗎？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:25.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:28.804000+08:00","text":"我想是充分運用一個不對稱作戰的概念。是的。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:29.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:39.548000+08:00","text":"好，接下來我再回到我們上週五付委的這幾個版本，您知道後來行政院版國防採購的部分不是交到國防委員會主審，是交到經濟委員會主審，您知道嗎？是。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:45.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:50.174000+08:00","text":"就是交到經濟委員會主審，還有跟國防、財政聯席，對不對？是。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:50.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:59.862000+08:00","text":"您覺得行政院版沒有交到國防委員會來審查，卻交給經濟委員會來審查，雖然我是經濟委員會的委員，您覺得這樣會有什麼影響？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:59.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:27.140000+08:00","text":"就符合作戰需求的這幾個特定採購項目，國防部的立場還是希望由國防部來主導這些建軍備戰所需要的採購事項，因為主管機關是國防部，所以當然希望由外交及國防委員會跟財政委員會來聯席審查，而不是由經濟委員會主審，我們也不希望我們採購條例的主管機關是經濟部。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:28.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:44.897000+08:00","text":"很好，因為行政院版很清楚的就是為了要因應國防採購、要動支特別預算，所以用特別條例的方式，由國防部來做主管機關，由外交及國防委員會來主審這些軍備的採購。","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:45.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:48.360000+08:00","text":"您看過另外國眾兩黨的版本嗎？是。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:48.760000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:50.682000+08:00","text":"你認為他們的版本是偏向產業發展嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:50.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:51.042000+08:00","text":"是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:55.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:58.142000+08:00","text":"民眾黨版本是沒有提到這些採購的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:58.142000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:59.313000+08:00","text":"就完全是產業發展？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:59.313000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:00.484000+08:00","text":"是產業發展。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:00.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:08.431000+08:00","text":"國民黨的部分確實有提到2,400億的部分，但是這2,400億的部分要納入年度預算。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:09.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:14.736000+08:00","text":"年度預算在這個法案裡面又直接說要編400億。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:16.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:17.999000+08:00","text":"但是沒有說400億是要買軍備喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:18.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:19.481000+08:00","text":"如果是產業發展……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:20.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:43.026000+08:00","text":"另外有一條是說有三個用途，包括要採購各式無人載具，還有一些是為了產業發展的補助，還有場域的部分，全部都包在一起，可是無人載具的案項也沒有很明確。","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:43.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:15.694000+08:00","text":"是的，所以這就是社會最大的疑慮，沒有錯，無人載具的發展不管商用、民用都是未來可期待的，但是目前國家最迫切需要的就是透過這樣的國防採購將我們軍備不對稱戰力先充實起來，如果不是採購國防軍備而是採購其他的無人載具，我們也支持，但是輕重緩急要明顯的區隔，所以行政院版聚焦在特定機型做軍備使用，而經濟部去做產業輔導是另外的事情。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:15.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:18.117000+08:00","text":"國民黨版本的2,400億雖然比2,100億多，但是年度預算400億，寫的項目又不限定在軍備採購，還包含了很多的產業輔導項目，難免會有資源上沒有辦法集中投入的部分。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:31.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:41.377000+08:00","text":"部長，如果再有其他的版本送到院會來，你會支持國防採購的版本交由外交及國防委員會審查嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:42.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:23.783000+08:00","text":"我們國防部的立場應該是很清楚，我們透過行政院提出的這個特別條例，我們是基於我們的作戰需求，所以我們採購的這個項目已經特定，也就是濱海監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機及小型自殺無人艇，這是在整個防衛作戰需求上迫切需要的，我們希望建立非紅供應鏈的韌性，所以擺進來的這些項目都是屬於國內可以自主承製的，自主承製可以產生健康的產業鏈，一旦有任何狀況的時候，我們都可以有一定的作戰韌性。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:24.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:34.891000+08:00","text":"很好，其實我跟部長的想法相當一致，雖然上週你好像對我剛剛的描述有些誤會，鍾佳濱委員怎麼會認為行政院版的不如國民黨版的，沒有！","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:35.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:53.445000+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你這些想法，我再給你一個機會，我現在把行政院版就是你說的國防採購，再加上原來我的版本當中產業輔導的部分，放到我的新版本當中，而且主管機關就是國防部，但是涉及到產業輔導的部分，另外由行政院成立一個委員會來輔導，這裡面的預算完全用行政院版2,100萬的特別預算。2,100億。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:53.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:57:45.137000+08:00","text":"2,100億特別預算，而且項目就是這幾項，就是把國防部這幾個項目列入優先採購的對象，至於行政院的委員會要做產業輔導、要有空域、海域的劃定、要一些法令的鬆綁，那是屬於不太需要預算投注去採購的部分來做產業輔導，未來這個版本我也希望院會支持交付委員會審查的時候是放到外交及國防委員會，頂多聯席經濟或者財政委員會來審查，這樣子就可以幫忙行政院版，現在被交到經濟委員會主審，類似的版本部長願不願意回去參考一下，我提供一份給你，我們努力地讓它交付給國防委員會審查，好不好？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:57:45.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:06.768000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我覺得兩件事情還是要分開，我們的採購條例、我們的採購是國防部主管，我們採購合乎我們作戰需求的項目，產業發展、產業補助或者怎麼樣可能要另外一個條例，這是屬於經濟部主管，這兩個要分開來，不能夠放在同一個條例裡面。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:07.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:25.273000+08:00","text":"部長，我了解你的用心良苦，但是你還沒看到我的版本，不用這麼早下定論，說不定你看到我的版本之後，發現鍾委員提出的新版本2,100億特別預算統統用在國防部的軍備採購，其他的產業輔導部分交由行政院的委員會輔導，這樣子說不定也切合國防部的需求。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:25.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:26.554000+08:00","text":"委員的主管機關是國防部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:28.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:28.614000+08:00","text":"國防部。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:29.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:31.857000+08:00","text":"在這個條例裡面，國防部同時要去負責產業發展和……","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:32.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:52.307000+08:00","text":"不是，由行政院設一個委員會，我給你看一下，行政院應設立無人載具自主發展委員會做這些事情，部長，我知道你很辛苦，但是委員提出想要幫忙的時候，也請你可以了解一下我們的熱心，也是我們的同心，我們希望一起來推動，好不好？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:52.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:00.269000+08:00","text":"是，我們再檢視一下委員的版本，但是國防部的立場還是希望能夠儘速達成我們的採購目的。","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:02.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:06.914000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，本條例之主管機關為國防部，行政院的委員會負責產業輔導，希望部長回去請部裡面的同仁研議一下，我希望不至於再接到高層的關切，誤以為說我不支持國防部或行政院的版本，我也希望這樣的版本能夠協助我們的國防採購，也能夠協助產業輔導發展，謝謝部長。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:06.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:06.934000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指教。謝謝。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:07.434000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:11.148286+08:00","text":"接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":625,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士和先生。有請顧部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好。承襲剛剛牛委員說的簡報不要做太多，我這一次沒有帶簡報，就直接跟您請教。我記得上週有跟您就教有關於4個版本，包括行政院版、國眾兩黨以及我個人的版本，我就這4個版本做了一個比較，我還記得那時候我跟部長說，看起來行政院的版本最聚焦在軍備採購，國民黨的版本比較完整，似乎讓部長誤以為好像我認為國民黨黨團版比行政院版好，應該不會有這樣的誤會吧？因為那個是AI做的，AI都是只說好話、只說正向。但是縱使如此，到了隔天的院會，我都沒有批評其他黨的版本，但是我個人的版本就被丟包了，部長，你知道這件事嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我有看到新聞。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有看到新聞，我們今天討論的是少子化的因應對策，我們國家的人口不多，如果面對一個兵多將廣、人口眾多的國家，您覺得我們要怎麼樣扭轉這個劣勢？烏克蘭是不是做了一個很好的示範？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，烏克蘭雖然人口較俄羅斯少，但是充分運用無人載具去扭轉了人口的劣勢，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想是充分運用一個不對稱作戰的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。好，接下來我再回到我們上週五付委的這幾個版本，您知道後來行政院版國防採購的部分不是交到國防委員會主審，是交到經濟委員會主審，您知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是交到經濟委員會主審，還有跟國防、財政聯席，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您覺得行政院版沒有交到國防委員會來審查，卻交給經濟委員會來審查，雖然我是經濟委員會的委員，您覺得這樣會有什麼影響？"],["顧部長立雄：就符合作戰需求的這幾個特定採購項目，國防部的立場還是希望由國防部來主導這些建軍備戰所需要的採購事項，因為主管機關是國防部，所以當然希望由外交及國防委員會跟財政委員會來聯席審查，而不是由經濟委員會主審，我們也不希望我們採購條例的主管機關是經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，因為行政院版很清楚的就是為了要因應國防採購、要動支特別預算，所以用特別條例的方式，由國防部來做主管機關，由外交及國防委員會來主審這些軍備的採購。您看過另外國眾兩黨的版本嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為他們的版本是偏向產業發展嗎？是不是？"],["顧部長立雄：民眾黨版本是沒有提到這些採購的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就完全是產業發展？"],["顧部長立雄：是產業發展。國民黨的部分確實有提到2,400億的部分，但是這2,400億的部分要納入年度預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["顧部長立雄：年度預算在這個法案裡面又直接說要編400億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是沒有說400億是要買軍備喔！如果是產業發展……"],["顧部長立雄：另外有一條是說有三個用途，包括要採購各式無人載具，還有一些是為了產業發展的補助，還有場域的部分，全部都包在一起，可是無人載具的案項也沒有很明確。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以這就是社會最大的疑慮，沒有錯，無人載具的發展不管商用、民用都是未來可期待的，但是目前國家最迫切需要的就是透過這樣的國防採購將我們軍備不對稱戰力先充實起來，如果不是採購國防軍備而是採購其他的無人載具，我們也支持，但是輕重緩急要明顯的區隔，所以行政院版聚焦在特定機型做軍備使用，而經濟部去做產業輔導是另外的事情。國民黨版本的2,400億雖然比2,100億多，但是年度預算400億，寫的項目又不限定在軍備採購，還包含了很多的產業輔導項目，難免會有資源上沒有辦法集中投入的部分。部長，如果再有其他的版本送到院會來，你會支持國防採購的版本交由外交及國防委員會審查嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們國防部的立場應該是很清楚，我們透過行政院提出的這個特別條例，我們是基於我們的作戰需求，所以我們採購的這個項目已經特定，也就是濱海監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機及小型自殺無人艇，這是在整個防衛作戰需求上迫切需要的，我們希望建立非紅供應鏈的韌性，所以擺進來的這些項目都是屬於國內可以自主承製的，自主承製可以產生健康的產業鏈，一旦有任何狀況的時候，我們都可以有一定的作戰韌性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，其實我跟部長的想法相當一致，雖然上週你好像對我剛剛的描述有些誤會，鍾佳濱委員怎麼會認為行政院版的不如國民黨版的，沒有！我現在告訴你這些想法，我再給你一個機會，我現在把行政院版就是你說的國防採購，再加上原來我的版本當中產業輔導的部分，放到我的新版本當中，而且主管機關就是國防部，但是涉及到產業輔導的部分，另外由行政院成立一個委員會來輔導，這裡面的預算完全用行政院版2,100萬的特別預算。"],["顧部長立雄：2,100億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：2,100億特別預算，而且項目就是這幾項，就是把國防部這幾個項目列入優先採購的對象，至於行政院的委員會要做產業輔導、要有空域、海域的劃定、要一些法令的鬆綁，那是屬於不太需要預算投注去採購的部分來做產業輔導，未來這個版本我也希望院會支持交付委員會審查的時候是放到外交及國防委員會，頂多聯席經濟或者財政委員會來審查，這樣子就可以幫忙行政院版，現在被交到經濟委員會主審，類似的版本部長願不願意回去參考一下，我提供一份給你，我們努力地讓它交付給國防委員會審查，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：報告委員，我覺得兩件事情還是要分開，我們的採購條例、我們的採購是國防部主管，我們採購合乎我們作戰需求的項目，產業發展、產業補助或者怎麼樣可能要另外一個條例，這是屬於經濟部主管，這兩個要分開來，不能夠放在同一個條例裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，我了解你的用心良苦，但是你還沒看到我的版本，不用這麼早下定論，說不定你看到我的版本之後，發現鍾委員提出的新版本2,100億特別預算統統用在國防部的軍備採購，其他的產業輔導部分交由行政院的委員會輔導，這樣子說不定也切合國防部的需求。"],["顧部長立雄：委員的主管機關是國防部？"],["鍾委員佳濱：國防部。"],["顧部長立雄：在這個條例裡面，國防部同時要去負責產業發展和……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，由行政院設一個委員會，我給你看一下，行政院應設立無人載具自主發展委員會做這些事情，部長，我知道你很辛苦，但是委員提出想要幫忙的時候，也請你可以了解一下我們的熱心，也是我們的同心，我們希望一起來推動，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我們再檢視一下委員的版本，但是國防部的立場還是希望能夠儘速達成我們的採購目的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有問題，本條例之主管機關為國防部，行政院的委員會負責產業輔導，希望部長回去請部裡面的同仁研議一下，我希望不至於再接到高層的關切，誤以為說我不支持國防部或行政院的版本，我也希望這樣的版本能夠協助我們的國防採購，也能夠協助產業輔導發展，謝謝部長。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","王義川","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃建賓","王定宇","王安祥","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","葉元之","黃仁","林楚茵"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「少子化衝擊下國軍人力資源政策與未來因應規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}