{"error":false,"id":["170369"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170369,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170369","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T11:39:01+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T12:09:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210c15aee3319363db28c89d092fec882f477dd9ed03a6d74a7c86df9d5e1265cba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:39:01 - 12:09:10","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":8.19846875,"end":12.029093750000001,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":11.505968750000001,"end":11.927843750000001,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.180968750000002,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.19784375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.19784375,"end":12.231593750000002,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":12.231593750000002,"end":12.383468750000002,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.383468750000002,"end":12.400343750000001,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":12.400343750000001,"end":12.450968750000001,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.450968750000001,"end":12.46784375,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":12.46784375,"end":12.484718750000003,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.484718750000003,"end":14.72909375,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":17.69909375,"end":18.35721875,"speaker_score":0.821},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":18.610343750000002,"end":34.15221875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":34.52346875,"end":37.99971875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":38.40471875,"end":50.048468750000005,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":50.30159375,"end":51.88784375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":52.09034375,"end":73.96034375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":74.48346875,"end":95.52659375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":95.67846875000001,"end":97.58534375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":97.99034375000001,"end":102.09096875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":102.68159375,"end":148.15971875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":148.88534375,"end":158.95971875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":160.09034375000002,"end":169.70909375000002,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":170.63721875000002,"end":175.37909375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":175.86846875,"end":178.34909375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":178.68659375000001,"end":187.74846875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":188.10284375,"end":193.55346875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":194.09346875,"end":195.02159375000002,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":196.15221875,"end":196.97909375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":197.14784375000002,"end":200.53971875000002,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":200.75909375,"end":236.90534375000001,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":237.64784375000002,"end":240.75284375,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":242.10284375,"end":243.62159375000002,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":244.09409375,"end":247.11471875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":247.68846875000003,"end":265.03596875,"speaker_score":0.988},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員淑芬","start":265.829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謝謝主席 是不是請我們部長和署長好 請市部長江署長另外一位好"},{"start":18.632,"end":41.761,"text":"部長上個禮拜五7月3號你們召開記者會邀請了學者專家還一起坐在旁邊當天台大農業化學系的教授蘇南維他在這裡面講了一些意思就是說這個有可能是來自於豆子的問題他就是"},{"start":42.801,"end":67.111,"text":"7月3號什麼事情都還搞不清楚然後你們就請學者專家來背書說有可能是豆子的問題但我是要說啊學者當然可以提出科學上的可能性但你整個食藥署都還沒有查明原因你就安排學者來說原產地採收後乾燥可能造成本片比的生成"},{"start":68.312,"end":73.199,"text":"然後容易讓外界認為說你們就直接認為是黃豆原料出問題"},{"start":74.614,"end":100.634,"text":"甚至想說這是不是在幫業者開脫你還沒有查清楚製程的管理精煉的程序品質的控管創廚的運輸就先透過學者說法把焦點轉向國外的原料那待會我們可以再說那我的意思是說不要講這個蘇南維蘇南維是誰你們都不知道這裡沒有幾個人還記得"},{"start":102.985,"end":115.55,"text":"孫南緯在附衛箱混油案件假油的時候他就引起了高度的爭議當時的政府也找他出來 當時他是拿到這個國科會"},{"start":122.072,"end":147.601,"text":"還有富衛鄉這個業者的錢去做了一個研究他研究的主題確認開發芝麻油參混其他食用油檢測方法的研究所以他明明拿了業者的錢做研究也拿了政府的錢做研究他知道有混油他也做這個混油的研究方法的研究但他不公開不說"},{"start":148.902,"end":157.372,"text":"他就是這樣子當假的這個混的芝麻油的事件爆發的時候他都沒有講話所以當時就引起高度的爭議那我現在在講這個學者過去是這樣子你們現在在重大的食安案件的時候你們還繼續邀請他出來"},{"start":170.677,"end":193.407,"text":"你會讓人家相信說這不是請專家來幫業者開脫我是打問號啦老實說所以你如果讓人家相信說你不是在特定幫業者轉移這個方向尤其是整個案件都還沒有查明7月3號你就找這種爭議的學者來把問題導向原料端這樣子是"},{"start":197.21,"end":213.621,"text":"更不要講另外一個方向你們說本扁比的代謝快幾天到兩週就可以排除不要過度恐慌我可以理解政府想要讓大家不恐慌可是事實上你們不應該這麼說"},{"start":215.282,"end":236.533,"text":"而是因為台灣有多少的外食的人而這些外食的人天天可能吃便利商店的便當天天可能吃早餐都吃御飯糰而這些外食族的人沒有足夠的膳食纖維他們沒有攝取青菜量可以去代謝 沒有而他們的風險是天天天天"},{"start":242.165,"end":264.425,"text":"而天天吃這些御飯糰當早餐的人多得很欸更不要講說如果我說啦有小孩喜歡吃冰淇淋家裡面天天吃冰淇淋如果冰淇淋的油脂有問題你說本便比代謝快但是一次大量食用天天吃有沒有可能就有風險"},{"start":265.888,"end":290.754,"text":"你都沒有考慮到很多人的飲食習慣消費習慣外食族的人的別無選擇所以你們找這些學者專家出來不要說洗地啦就是說這樣的做法我覺得應該是沒必要啦部長你覺得有必要這樣子做嗎事實上也轉移不了焦點啦"},{"start":292.782,"end":318.836,"text":"跟委員說明確實這個事件我們還在調查當中就如同我之前講的我們把它從4月到6月底這些我們都還要再按照它的這個樣本再重演然後再去check呢如果有問題的去對應它的往前追溯的製程來扣合是製程還是原料的問題當時上個禮拜五什麼都不知道啦"},{"start":319.716,"end":328.027,"text":"不要這樣就急著找學者專家出來啦要淡化這個事情的處理不是這樣子風險的問題是風險的問題風險溝通要跟人民好好的做風險溝通"},{"start":336.078,"end":344.724,"text":"而風險溝通很重要的核心的精神其實是要資訊公開透明啦所以今天為什麼大家都覺得說不滿意你們因為食品的安全治理當然要有風險的管理但要做風險的溝通管理手中的是科學的這個判斷"},{"start":357.512,"end":383.685,"text":"但是溝通重視的是資訊的揭露然後風險的來源檢測的結果然後在充分的資訊之下讓我們消費者要自主判斷所以這個問題資訊透明很重要風險的溝通很重要我是要告訴你這件事情好 下一個問題我是要告訴你食安法第七條第五項"},{"start":384.725,"end":402.111,"text":"食安法第七條第五項你清楚它的法條啊雖然你們用這一條開法但我還是要再講喔我再念一次食品業者不是只有三千萬以上也不是大廠只要所有的食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之餘"},{"start":403.832,"end":421.816,"text":"不是已經喔有可能有可能造成風險就應該要立即主動停止製造加工販賣而且要立即的辦理回收並通報直轄市縣市主管機關好這裡面有兩個風險有可能就要喔第二個要立即停止加工販賣喔"},{"start":432.518,"end":446.467,"text":"你現在是以沒有通知主管機關去處分他們可是你沒有處理到前半段前半段是判斷有可能有風險之餘了就要立即停止製造加工和販賣"},{"start":447.967,"end":463.275,"text":"那如果照這樣的話中聯難巧是幾月幾號開始檢出好所以跟我們說明我們昨天呢只是先針對中聯但是另外的幾家業者包含泰山福茂福茂跟福壽"},{"start":464.235,"end":475.81,"text":"他們何時知道然後有沒有繼續販賣這個我們也在查那麼以南橋來講好啦我現在告訴你我們先把時間點先抓出來嘛第一個南橋5月13號就檢出4.6個單位了對"},{"start":480.313,"end":492.389,"text":"是5月13號 你看 來 我們看一個影片 5月13號結果他今天下架的批次是什麼時候做的5月28 6月2號 6月4號 6月8號 6月2號 6月2號 6月3號 6月3號 他"},{"start":496.894,"end":506.636,"text":"5月13號自主檢驗就知道了有沒有符合我們食安法裡面第7條第5項你已經發現了有可能有健康危害之餘了就應該立即停止加工製造他有沒有停止他有沒有停止我們以為他這麼有良心通報出來結果不是他當然發現了4.6而到他再去復驗請外面的人復驗"},{"start":524.363,"end":537.632,"text":"八點零六月四號他都知道但是他也不停的在用這個有問題的毒油還繼續在生產加工這樣你聽到沒有那中聯油子什麼時候接貨報告"},{"start":546.223,"end":555.829,"text":"它是6月11號6月11號它有沒有停止生產有沒有停止加工製造有沒有下架按照我們的法律它就應該要立即下架"},{"start":562.346,"end":577.446,"text":"好來6月15號他們大家都說他們秘密會議然後6月15號他們召開一個所謂的秘密會議就是平保聯繫會議6月15號所有人大家都知道所有業者都知道"},{"start":578.507,"end":597.62,"text":"請問他們有沒有遵守我們的法律我們的法律是有健康危害之餘的風險的時候就要立即停止加工停止製造停止生產然後要立即下架有沒有都沒有然後現在我要講"},{"start":599.429,"end":611.854,"text":"你們看業者怎麼做這個時序很重要因為這關係到法律的問題我們的法律到底是參考用的業者給他當成參考用的讓業者給架空掉了還是真的有實質的管理能力關係到這件事情如果這個時序屬實然後6月4號就8點0了然後"},{"start":629.192,"end":637.822,"text":"已經構成發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞了然後6月15號他們所有的秘密會議都知道了結果他們還在幹什麼他們第一時間發現的時候他們幹什麼部長他們幹什麼"},{"start":644.104,"end":654.39,"text":"他們第一個動作做復驗他們不是停止加工他們不是停止生產製造他們不是下架他們說我繼續復驗業者可以復驗但是復驗不能成為延後通報復驗不能成為不下架然後繼續生產製造加工的理由嘛"},{"start":673.393,"end":677.875,"text":"你也不能夠把復驗當成通報的前置程序嘛我現在要講什麼最危險的地方就是業者把流程理解成下游說有問題我再繼續復驗復驗確定以後再通報主管機關然後讓這個毒油繼續擴散讓這個加工食品繼續生產更多讓我們人民吃更多欸"},{"start":702.122,"end":723.015,"text":"所以第七條第五項 設計的邏輯是這樣子嗎保定你的理解是什麼 第七條第五項我們立法院修法是這樣子處理的嗎我的理解就是跟委員講的是一樣的這之餘的時候他就要立刻採取動作這個是業者的責任為什麼業者會變成今天這個負責性 為什麼會變成這負責性"},{"start":725.356,"end":744.314,"text":"我們立法院修法把第七條第五項的設計從嚴管理只要產品有可能對安全產生危害就要立即通報立即停止生產要下架發現有一例要先停用先控管先通報再同步復驗再釐清原因所以在這裡他們"},{"start":746.926,"end":749.848,"text":"你們食藥署我看不下去你們食藥署說一開始新聞稿大家拿出來看一看第一時間跟泰山現在回頭去看都想吐這些業者跟你的食藥署都讓我們想吐你們用說接獲中聯主動通報來說明這個事件中聯是主動通報嗎"},{"start":772.113,"end":782.415,"text":"有符合法律的通報程序嗎主動通報泰山來說我比法律規定的半年宴一次還更嚴格他講這個話都讓人想吐他被抓包了東窗事發了而且法律叫他馬上停止生產他都沒有然後他還敢說我比法律規定來更高標準"},{"start":798.63,"end":806.172,"text":"笑話而你的食藥署的新聞稿現在拿出來看還定調成中聯主動通報他如果主動通報在6月初就應該要通報了所以通報的業務主體也不是只有中聯 包括南橋南橋"},{"start":824.448,"end":842.216,"text":"他5月13就應該要通報了他不但不通報用毒油繼續生產製造還讓我們吃更多所以這證明什麼法律被業者架空形同虛設"},{"start":844.349,"end":865.201,"text":"我們在這裡所有食品安全的管理都仰賴業者的良知而偏偏業者最缺的就是沒有良知良心啦所以這的確是源頭管理破功啊源頭管理破功下有權中標啊民怨當然四起啊所以主動通報不等於即時通報啦也沒有符合法律啦"},{"start":872.793,"end":877.416,"text":"而今天這套自主檢驗 我們想像的前提是業者會誠實會及時 會完整的把異常交給主管機關而我們人民的想像是 人民錯誤虛假的想像是在架上的都有把關過 有政府在把關 沒問題原來這一些假設都是錯誤的"},{"start":901.418,"end":902.95,"text":"所以現在我要講第二個問題"},{"start":905.567,"end":931.279,"text":"這種高風險的食品或上游的原料你指標性的污染物實質進入了多層供應鏈的大宗的這些原料一旦第三方這個實驗室檢出超標你們還是不知道所以第三方實驗室檢出超標你是不是也應該同步建立通報主管機關的機制有沒有可能也需要"},{"start":932.159,"end":936.281,"text":"我們現在講 講個案 講這個事件但我們更要看到制度面哪裡有問題要補起來啊那我現在要講第二個問題喔自己投資上游 自己買自己的原料自己檢驗 自己放行啊現在這種自主管理還行得通嗎"},{"start":954.812,"end":962.399,"text":"我也不認為這個事件是單一批次檢驗超標現在也已經證明還有案外案 其他批次那我現在要問你就是說整個國內使用油脂的供應鏈高度集中了這個產業結構說是四家 其實就是兩大家中聯油脂和大統一"},{"start":980.939,"end":1004.606,"text":"可是這些是什麼問題他們上游供應商下游品牌上游供應商就下游品牌投資的下游的品牌商不是無辜的受害者啦不要理解成這些福壽泰山福茂是無辜的受害者 不是他們同時都是股權"},{"start":1006.499,"end":1021.443,"text":"重疊在一起的 既是上游 又是下游還有食品加工業 天啊上游供應平台 下游品牌 具有共同投資 共同利益結構還仰賴業者自主管理嗎 這個案件 這一種同一個 而且是市占率這麼高的你還要繼續讓他們業者自主管理嗎"},{"start":1035.945,"end":1051.291,"text":"跟委員說明我們會強化外部監測除了他自主檢測的頻率逐批或者是中間的環節要去節點要去強化之外我們第二個這個頻管就是外部檢驗的部分會來強化"},{"start":1052.631,"end":1077.366,"text":"包含呢 因為這是只有這幾個源頭的那麼由主管機關入場去做部長 這種話我們聽很多啦台灣的假油事件 參同業綠素事件收水油事件 到這一次的毒油事件都是這些大廠商啦 一次兩次三次"},{"start":1079.349,"end":1104.659,"text":"每次都是全國人民在遭殃啊我們不是什麼多一點的外部監測機制整個油品管理整個資本重疊高度集中這些大財團大資本最上有壟斷的這也不能夠讓他們自主管理啦"},{"start":1107.267,"end":1110.777,"text":"不是只要幾次抽菸 加強抽菸 不是再也不行啦"},{"start":1115.498,"end":1140.926,"text":"所以我們在這裡 他們有幾個問題 第一個上游供應商 下游品牌存在的股權利益關係下游的業者能不能以完全獨立的外部採購者立場要求上游供應商提高檢驗標準暫停出貨 主動通報不可能啦 那都他們自己的 對不對怎麼可能 我去要求中年游子更高標準 成本更高"},{"start":1142.046,"end":1146.748,"text":"那你泰山福壽就贏自己的,他有可能這樣損及自己的利益所以在這種狀況當上游平台出問題下游品牌不是受害者他是同一個供應體系的共同責任主體所以他們不可能但是我要告訴你喔"},{"start":1164.943,"end":1188.548,"text":"我最後告訴你 你看他們的貧寶會議大家業者 大家借酒來大家不知道 大家是要隱瞞什麼不知道要不感謝他沒有通報 沒有立即停止生產 沒有下架一起討論不知道要幹嘛現在 還有竹坯查驗這個可能有可能擴大你現在 就已經發生了要不要再擴大竹坯去查驗啊"},{"start":1190.021,"end":1194.843,"text":"現在只有一批有問題 只有案外案第二批那你現在要不要繼續擴大去查驗應不應該對這種毫無良知的業者也應該要去擴大查驗啊 需不需要"},{"start":1206.198,"end":1223.751,"text":"跟委員講我們已經把它過去的樣本從四月到六月底的二十幾個樣本我們都在驗都重新驗 已經在驗了但是這樣子就好了嗎我現在要告訴你類似的股權結構的不是只有中聯油脂不是只有泰山福茂和福壽"},{"start":1224.992,"end":1236.061,"text":"那大統一呢 你相信大統一 這一種相同的股權結構你們剛才 我剛才聽到你們早上早上起來報告他說大統一 統一集團自主管理比中聯還要嚴格 還要好早上"},{"start":1248.561,"end":1250.562,"text":"你憑什麼保證?你憑什麼保證?出問題了你可以負責嗎?我們在這裡要再次仰賴業者的良知和良心嗎?騙笑欸!早上你怎麼知道?你有沒有阿大保證?你剛才說的啊!委員問你啊!大統一有沒有問題啊?"},{"start":1272.936,"end":1275.459,"text":"他一樣是大型的食用油脂供應平台背後連結了食品加工、油脂販售、飼料生產他是一個大型的財團"},{"start":1293.82,"end":1311.902,"text":"然後包括統一企業泰華油脂大成長成企業也就是說大統一不是單一獨立的油廠它是大型的食品加工油脂銷售飼料產業共同投資最大的這個油脂供應平台啦"},{"start":1313.952,"end":1323.87,"text":"所以它的原料製程檢驗如果出現異常影響的範圍也不是單一品牌甚至會比中聯油脂更大"},{"start":1325.069,"end":1345.687,"text":"那沿著他的供應鏈擴散到多個通路和產品類型所以你不可以把這個事件定調成只是中聯油脂單一業者的違規案件你應該進一步的擴大去盤點大型實用油脂業者的供應鏈結構和股權關係然後要去"},{"start":1348.789,"end":1358.457,"text":"查驗要去確定這一些背後的食品加工油脂販售飼料通路所有的東西每一個環節都還是安全的啊要主動出擊啊"},{"start":1364.122,"end":1379.973,"text":"不能夠在這裡仰賴業者自主管理正如同我沒有辦法在這裡聽到你食品組的組長在這裡大言不慚拍胸脯說大統一管理的比中聯油脂更嚴格 屁我們不相信這種屁話啦要有政府啦不是在那裡道德上的保證啦"},{"start":1392.066,"end":1417.364,"text":"這個事件以後我們希望你也不是查中領油脂啊你這樣講說本扁比抄標你們一開始就說黃豆來源乾燥儲存製成油問題那我同樣的問題我再問你剛才你們也是閃躲了一下啦大統一到底有沒有買巴西黃豆如果你們認為是巴西黃豆有問題大統一到底有沒有買巴西黃豆"},{"start":1419.209,"end":1440.383,"text":"他採購的比例 批次 進貨的時間 原料的檢驗有沒有異常過他這個都自主管理 所以你們沒有資料啦他們都自主管理啦這次中聯有自主揭示啦你們大統議有自主揭示了嗎 有嗎你們有沒有數據"},{"start":1449.198,"end":1453,"text":"有沒有買到巴西豆你們認為巴西豆出問題這個因為從報驗的部分呢在去年我們看到他有進來今年我就問你今年就好了啦今年有沒有啦沒有資料我這邊手上"},{"start":1476.738,"end":1491.868,"text":"都事情發生了你們都指向巴西黃豆你現在問你大統一今年有沒有進你們沒有同時去查嗎所以你們不敢查還是不知道還是什麼"},{"start":1493.189,"end":1506.579,"text":"所以他們有沒有進 進了以後自主檢驗有沒有合格結果都有合格嗎那你們現在要不要對大統一台堂常徽也要擴大 稍微抽查一下"},{"start":1509.284,"end":1524.404,"text":"我沒有說我不是要指控大同益有問題而是因為使用油脂高度集中流量極大這是民生基礎的原料"},{"start":1525.265,"end":1539.787,"text":"所以從中聯油脂暴露出進口原料製成管控批次的檢驗下游的流向這種管理風險都出問題的時候同樣市佔率這麼高我們也希望要讓人民安心啦"},{"start":1541.461,"end":1559.506,"text":"應該要同步去檢視其他大型的有紙的平台是不是有相同的風險條件所以我再說一次 我不知道大統一是不是直接有問題但是政府絕對有責任也要一併的查清楚"},{"start":1561.175,"end":1586.364,"text":"所以在這裡要檢討的是使用油脂最上游的源頭這些產業供應的高度集中上下游的股權和利益關係緊密的產業結構我們絕對不能夠再把食品的安全交給業者自主管理我們屢屢就知道發現包括南橋都已經知道了還繼續加工製造"},{"start":1588.465,"end":1600.995,"text":"所以我們可以確定 沒有一個食品加工廠他們真的會自主檢驗 自主有良知 自己把關不可信任啦 絕對不可信任但是呢 我現在是要再講另外一個結論啦我講一個結論啦"},{"start":1610.762,"end":1628.937,"text":"不要用代謝很快來回應社會那也不要說還沒有出問題然後就直接還沒有找出問題的原因就隨便把你的可能性就直接變成好像就是答案了2014年黑心油 地溝油"},{"start":1630.296,"end":1654.946,"text":"食藥署的官方Q&A曾經表示黑心油品雖然可能具有潛在健康風險但因問題油品流入市面時時間跟民眾攝取量有限是否會造成健康危害仍需要更多科學資料評估而且你們的食藥署當時還說目前科學文獻並無直接證據證明黑心油品會立即危害人體健康當時"},{"start":1659.018,"end":1664.659,"text":"現在你們還去叫人家說代謝很快代謝很快是有前提有要件的啦"},{"start":1667.076,"end":1688.087,"text":"而這個前提案要件你們沒讓人民知道你們直接說沒啥問題這樣不對的當年社會為什麼憤怒當年社會是因為政府跟沒有做好把關問題喔然後業者跟政府最後不透明不誠實不負責任讓我們這樣子吃下去而這一次"},{"start":1689.267,"end":1715.392,"text":"本扁比就是列為致癌物質它當然是長期反覆累積暴露的風險不是短期的極毒性 但是你要考慮到現在大家家庭都外食啦大家的早餐都外食啦孩子就愛吃冰淇淋 就愛吃沙拉啦天天吃的很多"},{"start":1717.219,"end":1741.602,"text":"所以這不是天天吃嗎這不是長期嗎這不是累積暴露嗎而這種風險應該要源頭被控制不是等到問題再來告訴人民再透過專家學者來告訴我們身體可以代謝不用太擔心我們不想要這樣這次的事件我是要講"},{"start":1744.281,"end":1765.671,"text":"我們不是要製造恐慌也不是要否定掉你風險評估的專業而是你必須要了解科學說明不能取代行政責任代謝的速度不能取代源頭管理沒有極度性也不能取代公開透明就是這樣子保定"},{"start":1767.97,"end":1780.359,"text":"不要再像以前一樣 說詞跟以前一樣 聽不下去啊好好的誠實面對 資訊公開透明交給消費者自行來判斷 政府該做的都要扛起來不可以這樣啦 直接拍胸膛 說他入職管理要比較嚴 屁"},{"start":1793.295,"end":1808.985,"text":"謝謝委員我們一定把所有的資訊及時的透明公開那麼會強化這個風險沒有啊你們上個禮拜就沒有啊上個禮拜六日啊我們這兩個看不下去一直在查好啦好謝謝謝謝林子芬委員的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:09.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:13.552000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，是不是請部長和署長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:14.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:18.783000+08:00","text":"請石部長、姜署長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:18.783000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:19.783000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:19.632000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:39:42.421000+08:00","text":"部長，上個禮拜五、7月3日你們召開記者會，還邀請了學者專家一起坐在旁邊，當天臺大農業化學系教授蘇南維在這裡面講了一些，意思就是有可能是來自於豆子的問題。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:39:43.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:32.767000+08:00","text":"在7月3日什麼事情都還搞不清楚的時候，你們就請學者專家來背書，說有可能是豆子的問題，可是我要說，學者當然可以提出科學上的可能性，但整個食藥署都還沒有查明原因，就安排學者說原產地採收後乾燥可能造成苯駢芘的生成，容易讓外界認為你們就直接認為是黃豆原料出了問題，甚至讓人想說這是不是在幫業者開脫，你還沒有查清楚製程的管理、精煉的程序、品質的控管、倉儲的運輸，就先透過學者的說法把焦點轉向國外的原料，這部分待會我們可以再談。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:35.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:40:39.132000+08:00","text":"而這個蘇南維是誰？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:40:39.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:37.210000+08:00","text":"你們可能都不知道，這裡沒有幾個人還記得，蘇南維在富味鄉混油案件、假油案件的時候，他就引起了高度的爭議，當時的政府也找他出來，抱歉，我更正，當時他是拿到國科會還有富味鄉業者的錢去做了一個研究，研究的主題是「開發芝麻油摻混其他食用油檢測方法之研究」，所以他明明拿了業者的錢做研究，也拿了政府的錢做研究，他知道有混油，他也做了混油檢測方法之研究，但他不公開、不說，他就是這樣子，當假的、混的芝麻油事件爆發的時候，他都沒有講話，所以當時他就引起高度的爭議。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:37.230000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:56.939000+08:00","text":"我現在要講的是，這個學者過去是這個樣子，現在發生重大食安案件的時候，你們還繼續邀請他出來，你會讓人家相信這並不是請專家來幫業者開脫嗎？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:56.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:41:58.020000+08:00","text":"對此，我是打問號啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:41:59.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:42:14.387000+08:00","text":"所以如果要讓人家相信你不是特定在幫業者轉移方向，尤其是整個案件都還沒有查明前，7月3號你就找這種具爭議的學者來，把問題導向原料端，這樣子是不妥的。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:42:18.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:42:56.852000+08:00","text":"更不要講另外一個方向了，你們說苯駢芘的代謝很快，幾天到兩週就可以排出，不要過度恐慌，我可以理解政府想要讓大家不恐慌，可是事實上你們不應該這麼說，因為臺灣有多少外食的人，而這些外食的人可能天天都吃便利商店的便當，早餐可能天天都吃御飯糰，這些外食族的人沒有足夠的膳食纖維，他們沒有攝取足夠的青菜量去做代謝，沒有！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:42:57.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:25.425000+08:00","text":"而他們的風險是天天、天天的，其實天天吃這些御飯糰，把這個當早餐的人多得很，更不要說有些小孩喜歡吃冰淇淋，家裡可能天天就讓其吃冰淇淋，如果冰淇淋的油脂有問題，雖然你說苯駢芘代謝快，但是一次大量食用，天天吃，有沒有可能就有風險？","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:26.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:41.912000+08:00","text":"你都沒有考慮到很多人的飲食習慣、消費習慣，外食族的人別無選擇，所以你們找這些學者專家出來，不要說這是「洗地」啦！","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:43.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:46.813000+08:00","text":"但這樣的做法我覺得應該是沒必要啦！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:47.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:49.733000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得有必要這樣子做嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:49.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:43:51.734000+08:00","text":"事實上也轉移不了焦點！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:43:53.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:15.994000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，確實這個事件我們還在調查當中，就如同我之前講的，從4月到6月底的這些，我們都還要按照他的樣本再重驗，然後再去check，如果是有問題的，會去對應、往前追溯製程，以找出這是製程還是原料的問題，最後才會……","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:15.994000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:16.994000+08:00","text":"我不是在講這個啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:15.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:44:24.441000+08:00","text":"當時、上個禮拜五的時候是什麼都不知道，但不要這樣就急著找學者專家出來啦！","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:44:25.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:45:20.703000+08:00","text":"要淡化這個事情的處理不是這樣子的，風險的問題是風險的問題，要跟人民好好的做風險溝通，而風險溝通很重要的核心精神，其實是要資訊公開透明，所以今天為什麼大家都覺得不滿意你們，因為食品的安全治理，當然要有風險的管理，但也要做風險的溝通，管理首重的是科學的判斷，但是溝通重視的是資訊的揭露、風險的來源、檢測的結果，然後在充分的資訊之下，讓我們的消費者自主判斷，所以資訊的透明很重要，風險的溝通很重要，我是要告訴你這件事情。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:45:21.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.636000+08:00","text":"下一個我要告訴你的是食安法第七條第五項，你應該清楚法條的內容，雖然你們用這一條開罰，但我還是要再講，食品業者不是只有針對資本額3,000萬以上的業者，也不是只有針對大廠，而是只要所有的食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞，不是「已經」，而是「有可能」造成風險，就應該要立即、主動停止製造、加工、販賣，而且要立即辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣市主管機關。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:01.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:34.210000+08:00","text":"這裡面有兩個風險，第一個，「有可能」的時候就要去做；第二個，要立即停止加工、販賣，但你現在是以沒有通知主管機關去處分他們，可是你沒有處理到前半段，前半段是判斷有可能造成風險之虞了，就要立即停止製造、加工和販賣，如果照這樣的話，中聯、南僑是幾月幾號開始檢出？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:35.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:46:52.384000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們昨天只是先針對中聯，但是另外幾家業者包含泰山、福懋跟福壽他們何時知道，然後有沒有繼續販賣，這個部分我們也在查，以南僑來講……好啦！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:46:52.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:10.565000+08:00","text":"我現在告訴你，我們先把時間點抓出來，第一個，南僑5月13號就檢出4.6個單位了，我們來看一下投影片，5月13號就檢出了，結果他今天下架的批次是什麼時候做的？","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:11.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:23.075000+08:00","text":"5月28號、6月2號、6月4號、6月8號、6月3號等等，他5月13號自主檢驗就知道了，請問有沒有符合我們食安法第七條第五項？","quality":0.854},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:23.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:26.056000+08:00","text":"就是已經發現可能有危害衛生安全之虞了，就應該立即停止加工、製造，但他有沒有停止？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:26.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:26.336000+08:00","text":"他有沒有停止？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:26.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:27.036000+08:00","text":"我們還以為他這麼有良心通報出來，結果不是！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:27.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:49.826000+08:00","text":"他當然發現了有4.6個單位，到他再去請外面的人複驗，那是8.0個單位，6月4號……","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:49.826000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:50.826000+08:00","text":"那是6月4號了……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:49.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:47:57.352000+08:00","text":"所以他都知道，但是他也不停的在用這個有問題的毒油，還在繼續生產、加工，這樣你聽懂了嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:47:57.672000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:09.645000+08:00","text":"那中聯油脂什麼時候接獲報告的？6月11號。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:09.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:12.967000+08:00","text":"6月11號，那他有沒有停止生產？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:12.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:14.868000+08:00","text":"有沒有停止加工、製造？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:15.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:16.409000+08:00","text":"有沒有下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:16.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:16.809000+08:00","text":"按照我們的法律，他就應該要立即下架。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:24.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:41.569000+08:00","text":"再來，6月15號他們召開了一個所謂的秘密會議，就是品保聯繫會議，就在6月15號，所有人、所有業者大家都知道，請問他們有沒有遵守我們的法律？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:42.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:55.418000+08:00","text":"我們的法律是規定有危害健康風險之虞的時候，就要立即停止加工、停止製造、停止生產，然後要立即下架，有沒有？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:56.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:48:56.899000+08:00","text":"都沒有！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:48:58.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:12.054000+08:00","text":"現在我要講的是，你們看看業者怎麼做，這個時序很重要，因為這關係到法律的問題，我們的法律被業者當成是參考用的，讓業者給架空掉了，還是真的有實質的管理能力？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:12.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:38.261000+08:00","text":"這關係到這件事情，如果這個時序屬實，6月4號就已經是8.0了，已經構成發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞了，然後6月15號他們在所謂的秘密會議中都知道了，結果他們還在幹什麼？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:38.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:49:38.822000+08:00","text":"部長，他們第一時間發現的時候，他們在幹什麼？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:49:45.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:15.253000+08:00","text":"他們第一個動作是複驗，他們不是停止加工、他們不是停止生產製造、他們不是下架，他們是繼續複驗，業者可以複驗，但是複驗不能成為延後通報、不下架還繼續生產、製造、加工的理由嘛，你也不能夠把複驗當成通報的前置程序。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:15.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:18.855000+08:00","text":"我現在要講的是，最危險的地方就是業者把流程理解成下游說有問題，我再繼續複驗，複驗確定以後再通報主管機關，讓這個毒油繼續擴散，讓這個加工食品繼續生產更多，讓我們人民吃更多！","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:43.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:49.006000+08:00","text":"所以第七條第五項設計的邏輯是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:49.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:50.647000+08:00","text":"部長，你的理解是什麼？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:50.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:50:55.450000+08:00","text":"第七條第五項，我們立法院修法是這樣子處理的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:50:55.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:02.274000+08:00","text":"我的理解跟委員講的是一樣的，在「之虞」的時候，他就要立刻採取動作，這是業者的責任。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:02.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:03.474000+08:00","text":"為什麼業者會變成今天這副德性？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:03.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:03.995000+08:00","text":"為什麼會變成這副德性？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:06.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:23.893000+08:00","text":"我們立法院修法是把第七條第五項設計為從嚴管理，只要產品有可能對安全產生危害，就要立即通報、立即停止生產並且下架，發現有疑慮要先停用、先控管、先通報，再同步複驗，同時釐清原因。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:27.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:28.126000+08:00","text":"你們食藥署，我真的看不下去耶！","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:28.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:29.347000+08:00","text":"你們食藥署一開始的新聞稿大家拿出來看一看，裡面提到第一時間跟泰山……現在回頭去看都想吐！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:29.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:30.848000+08:00","text":"這些業者跟你們食藥署都讓我們想吐，你們用接獲中聯主動通報來說明這個事件，中聯是主動通報嗎？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:53.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:51:56.334000+08:00","text":"有符合法律的通報程序嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:51:57.354000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:02.115000+08:00","text":"泰山還說我比法律規定的半年驗一次還嚴格，他講這個話都讓人想吐！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:02.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:21.451000+08:00","text":"他被抓包了、東窗事發了，而且法律叫他馬上停止生產，他都沒有，然後他還敢說我比法律規定的還更高標準，笑話！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:21.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:52:24.491000+08:00","text":"而你們食藥署的新聞稿現在拿出來看，還定調成中聯主動通報，他如果是主動通報，在6月初就應該要通報了。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:52:25.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:00.915000+08:00","text":"所以通報的主體也不是只有中聯，包括南僑，他5月13號就應該要通報了，他不但不通報，還用毒油繼續生產、製造，還讓我們吃更多，這證明什麼？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:00.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:17.096000+08:00","text":"法律被業者架空，形同虛設，所有食品安全的管理都仰賴業者的良知，而偏偏業者最缺的就是良知，沒有良知、良心啦！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:18.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:26.161000+08:00","text":"所以這的確是源頭管理破功，所以下游全中標，當然會民怨四起，所以主動通報不等於即時通報，也沒有符合法律。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:53:33.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:53:38.396000+08:00","text":"而今天這套自主檢驗，我們想像的前提是業者會誠實、會即時、會完整地把異常交給主管機關，而我們人民錯誤、虛假的想像是，在架上的都有把關過，有政府在把關，沒問題，原來這些假設都是錯誤的。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:02.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:32.259000+08:00","text":"所以現在我要講第二個問題，這種高風險的食品或上游的原料，指標性的污染物實質進入了多層供應鏈的大宗原料，一旦第三方實驗室檢出超標，你們還是不知道，所以當第三方實驗室檢出超標，你是不是也應該建立同步通報主管機關的機制，有沒有可能也需要？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:33.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:34.279000+08:00","text":"我們現在講個案、講這個事件，但我們更要看到制度面哪裡有問題，要補起來啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:34.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:37.281000+08:00","text":"我現在再講下一個問題，自己投資上游、自己買自己的原料、自己檢驗、自己放行，現在這種自主管理還行得通嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:55.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:54:59.496000+08:00","text":"我也不認為這個事件是單一批次檢驗超標，現在也已經證明還有案外案、還有其他批次。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:54:59.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:24.220000+08:00","text":"我現在要問你的就是，整個國內食用油脂供應鏈高度集中的產業結構，說是四家，其實就是兩大家，中聯油脂和大統益，可是這是什麼樣的問題？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:24.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:55:43.025000+08:00","text":"他們上游是供應商、下游是品牌，上游供應商就是下游品牌投資的，下游的品牌商不是無辜的受害者，不要理解成福壽、泰山、福懋是無辜的受害者，不是！","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:55:44.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:00.182000+08:00","text":"他們同時都是股權重疊在一起的，既是上游又是下游，還有食品加工業，天啊，上游供應平臺及下游品牌具有共同投資及共同利益結構，還仰賴業者自主管理嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:00.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:02.443000+08:00","text":"部長，這種股權重疊而且市占率這麼高的，你還要繼續讓業者自主管理嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:16.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:39.535000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們會強化外部監測，除了他逐批自主檢測的頻率，或者是中間的環節、節點要去強化之外，第二個品管就是外部檢驗的部分會來強化，因為這次只有這幾個源頭，由主管機關入場去做樣本採樣。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:40.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:56:43.557000+08:00","text":"部長，這種話我們聽很多啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:56:44.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:57:25.639000+08:00","text":"臺灣的假油事件、摻銅葉綠素事件、餿水油事件，到這一次的毒油事件，都是這些大廠商，一次、兩次、三次，每次都是全國人民在遭殃啊，不能只是多一點的外部監測機制，是整個油品管理的問題，整個資本重疊、高度集中的這些大財團、大資本，他們是最上游壟斷的，再也不能夠讓他們自主管理啦！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:57:28.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:57:31.757000+08:00","text":"不是只要幾次抽驗、加強抽驗，不是，是再也不行啦！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:57:37.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:57:52.843000+08:00","text":"他們有幾個問題，第一個，當上游供應商與下游品牌存在股權利益關係，下游的業者能不能以完全獨立的外部採購者立場要求上游供應商提高檢驗標準、暫停出貨、主動通報？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:57:52.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:57:56.584000+08:00","text":"不可能啦，那都是他們自己的，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:57:56.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:00.365000+08:00","text":"他哪有可能去要求中聯油脂要有更高標準？","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:01.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:04.487000+08:00","text":"成本更高，泰山、福壽都是他們自己的，哪有可能這樣損及自己的利益？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:04.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:07.068000+08:00","text":"所以在這種狀況之下，當上游平臺出問題，下游品牌不是受害者，他是同一個供應體系的共同責任主體，所以他們不可能。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:07.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:49.528000+08:00","text":"但是我要告訴你喔，你看他們的品保會議，業者大家約一約，不知道是要隱瞞什麼，他們沒有通報、沒有立即停止生產、沒有下架，而是一起討論，不曉得要幹嘛，現在還要逐批查驗，這個有可能擴大，現在已經發生的要不要再擴大逐批去查驗？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:51.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:54.943000+08:00","text":"現在只有一批有問題，結果又有案外案、第二批，那你現在要不要繼續擴大查驗？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:58:54.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:58:55.823000+08:00","text":"對於這種毫無良知的業者也應該要去擴大查驗，需不需要？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:07.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:16.205000+08:00","text":"已經在做了，跟委員報告，他過去從4月到6月底的這二十幾個樣本，我們都在重新驗，已經在驗了。","quality":0.763},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:16.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:17.866000+08:00","text":"好，但是這樣子就好了嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:17.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:27.113000+08:00","text":"我現在要告訴你，類似股權結構的不是只有中聯油脂，不是只有泰山、福懋和福壽，大統益呢？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:28.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.621000+08:00","text":"你相信大統益這種相同的股權結構，我剛才聽到你們組長報告，他說大統益、統一集團自主管理比中聯還要嚴格、還要好，組長，你憑什麼保證？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.741000+08:00","text":"你憑什麼保證？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.741000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.861000+08:00","text":"出問題了你可以負責嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:49.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:50.261000+08:00","text":"我們還要再一次仰賴業者的良知和良心嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:50.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:50.261000+08:00","text":"「騙肖」啊！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:50.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:51.082000+08:00","text":"組長，你怎麼知道你有辦法保證嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:51.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:51.542000+08:00","text":"你剛才說的，委員問你大統益有沒有問題啊！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:51.542000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T11:59:59.006667+08:00","text":"你剛才說什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T11:59:59.006667+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:00:06.471333+08:00","text":"你說他比較嚴格啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:00:06.471333+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:00:13.936000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在對其他目前繼續製造的這些上游業者，我們也開始進行他的抽驗，也在採驗他了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:00:13.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:01:47.924000+08:00","text":"我現在跟你講，他一樣是大型的食用油脂供應平臺，背後連結的食品加工、油脂販售、飼料生產，他是一個大型的財團，包括統一企業、泰華油脂、大成長城企業，也就是說，大統益不是單一獨立的油廠，他是大型的食品加工、油脂銷售、飼料產業所共同投資的最大的油脂供應平臺，所以他的原料、製程、檢驗如果出現異常，影響的範圍也不是單一品牌，甚至會比中聯油脂更大，沿著他的供應鏈擴散到多個通路和產品類型，所以你不可以把這個事件定調成只是中聯油脂單一業者的違規案件，你應該進一步的擴大去盤點大型食用油脂業者的供應鏈結構和股權關係，然後要去查驗、要去確定這一些背後的食品加工、油脂販售、飼料通路所有的東西每一個環節都還是安全的，要主動出擊，不能夠在這裡仰賴業者自主管理。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:01:48.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:01:59.312000+08:00","text":"正如同我沒有辦法在這裡聽到你食品組的組長在這裡大言不慚拍胸脯說，大統益管理的比中聯油脂更嚴格，屁！","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:01:59.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:01:59.532000+08:00","text":"我們不相信這種屁話！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:01:59.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:01:59.832000+08:00","text":"要有政府！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:00.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:02:00.953000+08:00","text":"不是在那裡道德上的保證！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:13.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:02:32.480000+08:00","text":"這個事件以後，我們希望你不是查中聯油脂，你現在講苯駢芘超標，你們一開始就說黃豆來源、乾燥、儲存、製程有問題，那我同樣的問題再問你，剛才你們也是閃躲了一下，大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:33.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:02:38.344000+08:00","text":"如果你們認為是巴西黃豆有問題，大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:40.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:02:48.935000+08:00","text":"他採購的比例、批次、進貨的時間、原料的檢驗有沒有異常過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:48.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:02:54.898000+08:00","text":"他這個都自主管理，所以你們沒有資料，他們都自主管理啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:02:56.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:01.162000+08:00","text":"這次中聯有自主揭示，大統益有自主揭示了嗎？有嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:01.162000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:01.383000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有數據？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.538000+08:00","text":"有沒有買？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.538000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:11.538000+08:00","text":"你們要慢慢來，我可以等，有沒有買到巴西豆？","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.978000+08:00","text":"你們認為巴西豆出問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:10.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:12.759000+08:00","text":"因為從報驗的部分，去年我們看到他有進來……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:12.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.660000+08:00","text":"今年，我就問你今年就好了，今年有沒有啦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:14.660000+08:00","text":"不要這樣子……","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:14.660000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:15.660000+08:00","text":"今年的我們沒有資料，我們會後再……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.820000+08:00","text":"沒有資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:13.980000+08:00","text":"我這邊手上沒有。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:38.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:49.746000+08:00","text":"事情都發生了，你們都指向巴西原豆、黃豆，現在問你大統益今年有沒有進，你們沒有同時去查嗎？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:49.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:52.868000+08:00","text":"你們是不敢查還是不知道還是什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:54.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:56.891000+08:00","text":"所以他們有沒有進？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:03:56.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:03:58.912000+08:00","text":"進了以後自主檢驗有沒有合格？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:04:00.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:04:02.415000+08:00","text":"結果都有合格嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:04:02.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:04:07.559000+08:00","text":"那你們現在要不要對大統益、台糖、長輝擴大抽查一下？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:04:15.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:04:49.103000+08:00","text":"我不是要指控大統益有問題，而是因為食用油脂高度集中，流量極大，這是民生基礎的原料，所以從中聯油脂暴露出進口原料、製程管控、批次的檢驗、下游的流向，這種管理風險都出問題的時候，同樣市占率這麼高的，我們也希望要讓人民安心，應該要同步去檢視其他大型的油脂平臺是不是有相同的風險條件。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:04:49.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:05:40.875000+08:00","text":"所以我再說一次，我不知道大統益是不是直接有問題，但是政府絕對有責任，也要一併的查清楚，所以在這裡要檢討的是食用油脂最上游的源頭、這些產業供應的高度集中，上、下游的股權和利益關係緊密的產業結構，我們絕對不能夠再把食品安全交給業者自主管理，我們屢屢就知道、發現，包括南僑都已經知道了，還繼續加工製造，所以我們可以確定沒有一個食品加工廠真的會自主檢驗、自主有良知、自己把關，不可信任，絕對不可信任！","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:05:41.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:06:54.819000+08:00","text":"我現在要再講另外一個結論，我講一個結論，不要用代謝很快來回應社會，也不要說還沒有出問題，然後就直接……還沒有找出問題的原因就隨便把你的可能性就直接變成好像就是答案了，2014年的黑心油、地溝油，在食藥署的官方Q and A曾經表示，黑心油品雖然可能具有潛在健康風險，但因問題油品流入市面時，時間跟民眾攝取量有限，是否會造成健康危害，仍需要更多科學資料評估，而且你們的食藥署當時還說目前科學文獻並無直接證據證明黑心油品會立即危害人體健康，現在你們還跟人家說代謝很快，代謝很快是有前提、有要件的，而這個前提、要件你們沒讓人民知道，你們直接說沒什麼問題，這樣是不對的，當年社會為什麼憤怒？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:06:55.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:07:40.962000+08:00","text":"當年社會是因為政府沒有做好把關問題油，然後業者跟政府最後不透明、不誠實、不負責任，讓我們這樣子吃下去，而這一次苯駢芘就是列為致癌物質，它當然是長期反覆累積暴露的風險，不是短期的急毒性，但是你要考慮到現在大家、家庭都外食，每餐、早餐都外食，小孩很愛吃冰淇淋、很愛吃沙拉，天天吃的很多，這不是天天吃嗎？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:07:40.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:07:42.843000+08:00","text":"這不是長期嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:07:42.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:07:45.606000+08:00","text":"這不是累積暴露嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:07:45.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:08:00.460000+08:00","text":"而這種風險應該要從源頭被控制，不是等到問題發生，再來告訴人民，再透過專家學者來告訴我們身體可以代謝，不用太擔心，我們不想要這樣。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:08:00.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:08:39.858000+08:00","text":"對於這次的事件，我要講我們不是要製造恐慌，也不是要否定掉你風險評估的專業，而是你必須要了解，科學說明不能取代行政責任，代謝的速度不能取代源頭管理，沒有急毒性也不能取代公開透明，就是這樣子，部長不要再像以前一樣，說辭跟以前一樣，聽不下去啦，好好的誠實面對，資訊公開透明，交給消費者自行來判斷，政府該做的都要扛起來，不要這樣啦！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:08:39.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:08:41.339000+08:00","text":"在這裡拍胸膛，說業者管理得比較嚴謹，屁！好啦。","quality":0.526},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:08:54.295000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:00.019000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我們一定把所有的資訊即時的透明公開，會強化風險管控……","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"林委員淑芬","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:00.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:05.502000+08:00","text":"沒有啊，你們上個禮拜就沒有啊，上個禮拜六、日的時候，人家就看不下去。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:05.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:07.183000+08:00","text":"我們一直在查。好啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:09.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:09.985000+08:00","text":"謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:10.485000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:13.342143+08:00","text":"現在請邱慧洳委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":986,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時39分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長和署長？"],["主席：請石部長、姜署長。"],["石部長崇良：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，上個禮拜五、7月3日你們召開記者會，還邀請了學者專家一起坐在旁邊，當天臺大農業化學系教授蘇南維在這裡面講了一些，意思就是有可能是來自於豆子的問題。在7月3日什麼事情都還搞不清楚的時候，你們就請學者專家來背書，說有可能是豆子的問題，可是我要說，學者當然可以提出科學上的可能性，但整個食藥署都還沒有查明原因，就安排學者說原產地採收後乾燥可能造成苯駢芘的生成，容易讓外界認為你們就直接認為是黃豆原料出了問題，甚至讓人想說這是不是在幫業者開脫，你還沒有查清楚製程的管理、精煉的程序、品質的控管、倉儲的運輸，就先透過學者的說法把焦點轉向國外的原料，這部分待會我們可以再談。","而這個蘇南維是誰？你們可能都不知道，這裡沒有幾個人還記得，蘇南維在富味鄉混油案件、假油案件的時候，他就引起了高度的爭議，當時的政府也找他出來，抱歉，我更正，當時他是拿到國科會還有富味鄉業者的錢去做了一個研究，研究的主題是「開發芝麻油摻混其他食用油檢測方法之研究」，所以他明明拿了業者的錢做研究，也拿了政府的錢做研究，他知道有混油，他也做了混油檢測方法之研究，但他不公開、不說，他就是這樣子，當假的、混的芝麻油事件爆發的時候，他都沒有講話，所以當時他就引起高度的爭議。","我現在要講的是，這個學者過去是這個樣子，現在發生重大食安案件的時候，你們還繼續邀請他出來，你會讓人家相信這並不是請專家來幫業者開脫嗎？對此，我是打問號啦！所以如果要讓人家相信你不是特定在幫業者轉移方向，尤其是整個案件都還沒有查明前，7月3號你就找這種具爭議的學者來，把問題導向原料端，這樣子是不妥的。","更不要講另外一個方向了，你們說苯駢芘的代謝很快，幾天到兩週就可以排出，不要過度恐慌，我可以理解政府想要讓大家不恐慌，可是事實上你們不應該這麼說，因為臺灣有多少外食的人，而這些外食的人可能天天都吃便利商店的便當，早餐可能天天都吃御飯糰，這些外食族的人沒有足夠的膳食纖維，他們沒有攝取足夠的青菜量去做代謝，沒有！而他們的風險是天天、天天的，其實天天吃這些御飯糰，把這個當早餐的人多得很，更不要說有些小孩喜歡吃冰淇淋，家裡可能天天就讓其吃冰淇淋，如果冰淇淋的油脂有問題，雖然你說苯駢芘代謝快，但是一次大量食用，天天吃，有沒有可能就有風險？你都沒有考慮到很多人的飲食習慣、消費習慣，外食族的人別無選擇，所以你們找這些學者專家出來，不要說這是「洗地」啦！但這樣的做法我覺得應該是沒必要啦！部長，你覺得有必要這樣子做嗎？事實上也轉移不了焦點！"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，確實這個事件我們還在調查當中，就如同我之前講的，從4月到6月底的這些，我們都還要按照他的樣本再重驗，然後再去check，如果是有問題的，會去對應、往前追溯製程，以找出這是製程還是原料的問題，最後才會……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是在講這個啦！當時、上個禮拜五的時候是什麼都不知道，但不要這樣就急著找學者專家出來啦！要淡化這個事情的處理不是這樣子的，風險的問題是風險的問題，要跟人民好好的做風險溝通，而風險溝通很重要的核心精神，其實是要資訊公開透明，所以今天為什麼大家都覺得不滿意你們，因為食品的安全治理，當然要有風險的管理，但也要做風險的溝通，管理首重的是科學的判斷，但是溝通重視的是資訊的揭露、風險的來源、檢測的結果，然後在充分的資訊之下，讓我們的消費者自主判斷，所以資訊的透明很重要，風險的溝通很重要，我是要告訴你這件事情。","下一個我要告訴你的是食安法第七條第五項，你應該清楚法條的內容，雖然你們用這一條開罰，但我還是要再講，食品業者不是只有針對資本額3,000萬以上的業者，也不是只有針對大廠，而是只要所有的食品業者發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞，不是「已經」，而是「有可能」造成風險，就應該要立即、主動停止製造、加工、販賣，而且要立即辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣市主管機關。這裡面有兩個風險，第一個，「有可能」的時候就要去做；第二個，要立即停止加工、販賣，但你現在是以沒有通知主管機關去處分他們，可是你沒有處理到前半段，前半段是判斷有可能造成風險之虞了，就要立即停止製造、加工和販賣，如果照這樣的話，中聯、南僑是幾月幾號開始檢出？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們昨天只是先針對中聯，但是另外幾家業者包含泰山、福懋跟福壽他們何時知道，然後有沒有繼續販賣，這個部分我們也在查，以南僑來講……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！我現在告訴你，我們先把時間點抓出來，第一個，南僑5月13號就檢出4.6個單位了，我們來看一下投影片，5月13號就檢出了，結果他今天下架的批次是什麼時候做的？5月28號、6月2號、6月4號、6月8號、6月3號等等，他5月13號自主檢驗就知道了，請問有沒有符合我們食安法第七條第五項？就是已經發現可能有危害衛生安全之虞了，就應該立即停止加工、製造，但他有沒有停止？他有沒有停止？我們還以為他這麼有良心通報出來，結果不是！他當然發現了有4.6個單位，到他再去請外面的人複驗，那是8.0個單位，6月4號……"],["石部長崇良：那是6月4號了……"],["林委員淑芬：所以他都知道，但是他也不停的在用這個有問題的毒油，還在繼續生產、加工，這樣你聽懂了嗎？那中聯油脂什麼時候接獲報告的？"],["石部長崇良：6月11號。"],["林委員淑芬：6月11號，那他有沒有停止生產？有沒有停止加工、製造？有沒有下架？按照我們的法律，他就應該要立即下架。","再來，6月15號他們召開了一個所謂的秘密會議，就是品保聯繫會議，就在6月15號，所有人、所有業者大家都知道，請問他們有沒有遵守我們的法律？我們的法律是規定有危害健康風險之虞的時候，就要立即停止加工、停止製造、停止生產，然後要立即下架，有沒有？都沒有！","現在我要講的是，你們看看業者怎麼做，這個時序很重要，因為這關係到法律的問題，我們的法律被業者當成是參考用的，讓業者給架空掉了，還是真的有實質的管理能力？這關係到這件事情，如果這個時序屬實，6月4號就已經是8.0了，已經構成發現產品有危害衛生安全之虞了，然後6月15號他們在所謂的秘密會議中都知道了，結果他們還在幹什麼？部長，他們第一時間發現的時候，他們在幹什麼？他們第一個動作是複驗，他們不是停止加工、他們不是停止生產製造、他們不是下架，他們是繼續複驗，業者可以複驗，但是複驗不能成為延後通報、不下架還繼續生產、製造、加工的理由嘛，你也不能夠把複驗當成通報的前置程序。我現在要講的是，最危險的地方就是業者把流程理解成下游說有問題，我再繼續複驗，複驗確定以後再通報主管機關，讓這個毒油繼續擴散，讓這個加工食品繼續生產更多，讓我們人民吃更多！所以第七條第五項設計的邏輯是這樣子嗎？部長，你的理解是什麼？第七條第五項，我們立法院修法是這樣子處理的嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我的理解跟委員講的是一樣的，在「之虞」的時候，他就要立刻採取動作，這是業者的責任。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼業者會變成今天這副德性？為什麼會變成這副德性？我們立法院修法是把第七條第五項設計為從嚴管理，只要產品有可能對安全產生危害，就要立即通報、立即停止生產並且下架，發現有疑慮要先停用、先控管、先通報，再同步複驗，同時釐清原因。你們食藥署，我真的看不下去耶！你們食藥署一開始的新聞稿大家拿出來看一看，裡面提到第一時間跟泰山……現在回頭去看都想吐！這些業者跟你們食藥署都讓我們想吐，你們用接獲中聯主動通報來說明這個事件，中聯是主動通報嗎？有符合法律的通報程序嗎？泰山還說我比法律規定的半年驗一次還嚴格，他講這個話都讓人想吐！他被抓包了、東窗事發了，而且法律叫他馬上停止生產，他都沒有，然後他還敢說我比法律規定的還更高標準，笑話！而你們食藥署的新聞稿現在拿出來看，還定調成中聯主動通報，他如果是主動通報，在6月初就應該要通報了。所以通報的主體也不是只有中聯，包括南僑，他5月13號就應該要通報了，他不但不通報，還用毒油繼續生產、製造，還讓我們吃更多，這證明什麼？法律被業者架空，形同虛設，所有食品安全的管理都仰賴業者的良知，而偏偏業者最缺的就是良知，沒有良知、良心啦！所以這的確是源頭管理破功，所以下游全中標，當然會民怨四起，所以主動通報不等於即時通報，也沒有符合法律。而今天這套自主檢驗，我們想像的前提是業者會誠實、會即時、會完整地把異常交給主管機關，而我們人民錯誤、虛假的想像是，在架上的都有把關過，有政府在把關，沒問題，原來這些假設都是錯誤的。","所以現在我要講第二個問題，這種高風險的食品或上游的原料，指標性的污染物實質進入了多層供應鏈的大宗原料，一旦第三方實驗室檢出超標，你們還是不知道，所以當第三方實驗室檢出超標，你是不是也應該建立同步通報主管機關的機制，有沒有可能也需要？我們現在講個案、講這個事件，但我們更要看到制度面哪裡有問題，要補起來啊！","我現在再講下一個問題，自己投資上游、自己買自己的原料、自己檢驗、自己放行，現在這種自主管理還行得通嗎？我也不認為這個事件是單一批次檢驗超標，現在也已經證明還有案外案、還有其他批次。我現在要問你的就是，整個國內食用油脂供應鏈高度集中的產業結構，說是四家，其實就是兩大家，中聯油脂和大統益，可是這是什麼樣的問題？他們上游是供應商、下游是品牌，上游供應商就是下游品牌投資的，下游的品牌商不是無辜的受害者，不要理解成福壽、泰山、福懋是無辜的受害者，不是！他們同時都是股權重疊在一起的，既是上游又是下游，還有食品加工業，天啊，上游供應平臺及下游品牌具有共同投資及共同利益結構，還仰賴業者自主管理嗎？部長，這種股權重疊而且市占率這麼高的，你還要繼續讓業者自主管理嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們會強化外部監測，除了他逐批自主檢測的頻率，或者是中間的環節、節點要去強化之外，第二個品管就是外部檢驗的部分會來強化，因為這次只有這幾個源頭，由主管機關入場去做樣本採樣。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，這種話我們聽很多啦！臺灣的假油事件、摻銅葉綠素事件、餿水油事件，到這一次的毒油事件，都是這些大廠商，一次、兩次、三次，每次都是全國人民在遭殃啊，不能只是多一點的外部監測機制，是整個油品管理的問題，整個資本重疊、高度集中的這些大財團、大資本，他們是最上游壟斷的，再也不能夠讓他們自主管理啦！不是只要幾次抽驗、加強抽驗，不是，是再也不行啦！","他們有幾個問題，第一個，當上游供應商與下游品牌存在股權利益關係，下游的業者能不能以完全獨立的外部採購者立場要求上游供應商提高檢驗標準、暫停出貨、主動通報？不可能啦，那都是他們自己的，對不對？他哪有可能去要求中聯油脂要有更高標準？成本更高，泰山、福壽都是他們自己的，哪有可能這樣損及自己的利益？所以在這種狀況之下，當上游平臺出問題，下游品牌不是受害者，他是同一個供應體系的共同責任主體，所以他們不可能。但是我要告訴你喔，你看他們的品保會議，業者大家約一約，不知道是要隱瞞什麼，他們沒有通報、沒有立即停止生產、沒有下架，而是一起討論，不曉得要幹嘛，現在還要逐批查驗，這個有可能擴大，現在已經發生的要不要再擴大逐批去查驗？現在只有一批有問題，結果又有案外案、第二批，那你現在要不要繼續擴大查驗？對於這種毫無良知的業者也應該要去擴大查驗，需不需要？"],["石部長崇良：已經在做了，跟委員報告，他過去從4月到6月底的這二十幾個樣本，我們都在重新驗，已經在驗了。"],["林委員淑芬：好，但是這樣子就好了嗎？我現在要告訴你，類似股權結構的不是只有中聯油脂，不是只有泰山、福懋和福壽，大統益呢？你相信大統益這種相同的股權結構，我剛才聽到你們組長報告，他說大統益、統一集團自主管理比中聯還要嚴格、還要好，組長，你憑什麼保證？你憑什麼保證？出問題了你可以負責嗎？我們還要再一次仰賴業者的良知和良心嗎？「騙肖」啊！組長，你怎麼知道你有辦法保證嗎？你剛才說的，委員問你大統益有沒有問題啊！你剛才說什麼？你說他比較嚴格啊！"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，我們現在對其他目前繼續製造的這些上游業者，我們也開始進行他的抽驗，也在採驗他了。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在跟你講，他一樣是大型的食用油脂供應平臺，背後連結的食品加工、油脂販售、飼料生產，他是一個大型的財團，包括統一企業、泰華油脂、大成長城企業，也就是說，大統益不是單一獨立的油廠，他是大型的食品加工、油脂銷售、飼料產業所共同投資的最大的油脂供應平臺，所以他的原料、製程、檢驗如果出現異常，影響的範圍也不是單一品牌，甚至會比中聯油脂更大，沿著他的供應鏈擴散到多個通路和產品類型，所以你不可以把這個事件定調成只是中聯油脂單一業者的違規案件，你應該進一步的擴大去盤點大型食用油脂業者的供應鏈結構和股權關係，然後要去查驗、要去確定這一些背後的食品加工、油脂販售、飼料通路所有的東西每一個環節都還是安全的，要主動出擊，不能夠在這裡仰賴業者自主管理。正如同我沒有辦法在這裡聽到你食品組的組長在這裡大言不慚拍胸脯說，大統益管理的比中聯油脂更嚴格，屁！我們不相信這種屁話！要有政府！不是在那裡道德上的保證！","這個事件以後，我們希望你不是查中聯油脂，你現在講苯駢芘超標，你們一開始就說黃豆來源、乾燥、儲存、製程有問題，那我同樣的問題再問你，剛才你們也是閃躲了一下，大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆？如果你們認為是巴西黃豆有問題，大統益到底有沒有買巴西黃豆？他採購的比例、批次、進貨的時間、原料的檢驗有沒有異常過？他這個都自主管理，所以你們沒有資料，他們都自主管理啦！這次中聯有自主揭示，大統益有自主揭示了嗎？有嗎？你們有沒有數據？有沒有買？你們要慢慢來，我可以等，有沒有買到巴西豆？你們認為巴西豆出問題。"],["姜署長至剛：因為從報驗的部分，去年我們看到他有進來……"],["林委員淑芬：今年，我就問你今年就好了，今年有沒有啦？不要這樣子……"],["姜署長至剛：今年的我們沒有資料，我們會後再……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有資料？"],["姜署長至剛：我這邊手上沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：事情都發生了，你們都指向巴西原豆、黃豆，現在問你大統益今年有沒有進，你們沒有同時去查嗎？你們是不敢查還是不知道還是什麼？所以他們有沒有進？進了以後自主檢驗有沒有合格？結果都有合格嗎？那你們現在要不要對大統益、台糖、長輝擴大抽查一下？我不是要指控大統益有問題，而是因為食用油脂高度集中，流量極大，這是民生基礎的原料，所以從中聯油脂暴露出進口原料、製程管控、批次的檢驗、下游的流向，這種管理風險都出問題的時候，同樣市占率這麼高的，我們也希望要讓人民安心，應該要同步去檢視其他大型的油脂平臺是不是有相同的風險條件。","所以我再說一次，我不知道大統益是不是直接有問題，但是政府絕對有責任，也要一併的查清楚，所以在這裡要檢討的是食用油脂最上游的源頭、這些產業供應的高度集中，上、下游的股權和利益關係緊密的產業結構，我們絕對不能夠再把食品安全交給業者自主管理，我們屢屢就知道、發現，包括南僑都已經知道了，還繼續加工製造，所以我們可以確定沒有一個食品加工廠真的會自主檢驗、自主有良知、自己把關，不可信任，絕對不可信任！","我現在要再講另外一個結論，我講一個結論，不要用代謝很快來回應社會，也不要說還沒有出問題，然後就直接……還沒有找出問題的原因就隨便把你的可能性就直接變成好像就是答案了，2014年的黑心油、地溝油，在食藥署的官方Q and A曾經表示，黑心油品雖然可能具有潛在健康風險，但因問題油品流入市面時，時間跟民眾攝取量有限，是否會造成健康危害，仍需要更多科學資料評估，而且你們的食藥署當時還說目前科學文獻並無直接證據證明黑心油品會立即危害人體健康，現在你們還跟人家說代謝很快，代謝很快是有前提、有要件的，而這個前提、要件你們沒讓人民知道，你們直接說沒什麼問題，這樣是不對的，當年社會為什麼憤怒？當年社會是因為政府沒有做好把關問題油，然後業者跟政府最後不透明、不誠實、不負責任，讓我們這樣子吃下去，而這一次苯駢芘就是列為致癌物質，它當然是長期反覆累積暴露的風險，不是短期的急毒性，但是你要考慮到現在大家、家庭都外食，每餐、早餐都外食，小孩很愛吃冰淇淋、很愛吃沙拉，天天吃的很多，這不是天天吃嗎？這不是長期嗎？這不是累積暴露嗎？而這種風險應該要從源頭被控制，不是等到問題發生，再來告訴人民，再透過專家學者來告訴我們身體可以代謝，不用太擔心，我們不想要這樣。","對於這次的事件，我要講我們不是要製造恐慌，也不是要否定掉你風險評估的專業，而是你必須要了解，科學說明不能取代行政責任，代謝的速度不能取代源頭管理，沒有急毒性也不能取代公開透明，就是這樣子，部長不要再像以前一樣，說辭跟以前一樣，聽不下去啦，好好的誠實面對，資訊公開透明，交給消費者自行來判斷，政府該做的都要扛起來，不要這樣啦！在這裡拍胸膛，說業者管理得比較嚴謹，屁！好啦。"],["石部長崇良：謝謝委員，我們一定把所有的資訊即時的透明公開，會強化風險管控……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啊，你們上個禮拜就沒有啊，上個禮拜六、日的時候，人家就看不下去。"],["石部長崇良：我們一直在查。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。","現在請邱慧洳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}