{"error":false,"id":["170371"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170371,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170371","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T12:09:15+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T12:27:53+08:00","影片長度":"00:18:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210c1d215bf525faae48c89d092fec882f477dd9ed03a6d74a7c85f38e9dc6d1ac45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱慧洳","委員發言時間":"12:09:15 - 12:27:53","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":9.34596875,"end":15.117218750000003,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":14.35784375,"end":15.235343750000002,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.28159375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.32784375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":17.32784375,"end":17.344718750000002,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.395343750000002,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":17.395343750000002,"end":17.42909375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":17.42909375,"end":17.496593750000002,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":17.496593750000002,"end":17.51346875,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":17.95221875,"end":27.31784375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":27.419093750000002,"end":35.62034375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":36.90284375,"end":60.274718750000005,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":40.00784375,"end":40.362218750000004,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":40.93596875,"end":41.290343750000005,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":46.656593750000006,"end":46.774718750000005,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":46.90971875,"end":46.994093750000005,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":60.44346875,"end":60.64596875,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":60.64596875,"end":61.91159375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":61.05096875,"end":63.548468750000005,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":63.548468750000005,"end":80.62596875,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":76.72784375,"end":79.46159375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":80.08596875,"end":80.60909375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":80.62596875,"end":90.39659375000001,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":84.28784375000001,"end":84.67596875000001,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":87.93284375,"end":88.81034375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":90.00846875,"end":97.73721875000001,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":97.73721875000001,"end":102.07409375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":99.72846875,"end":100.16721875,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":101.90534375,"end":109.02659375,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":107.62596875000001,"end":120.90659375000001,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":111.23721875000001,"end":111.54096875,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":118.94909375,"end":133.54596875000001,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":133.54596875000001,"end":142.00034375,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":142.15221875,"end":148.36221875,"speaker_score":0.87},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":148.36221875,"end":155.68596875,"speaker_score":0.872},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"邱委員慧洳","start":156.09096875,"end":185.60534375,"speaker_score":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有請食藥署署長 主席 還有各位與會的同仁 大家好部長我想跟你請教一件事就是關於這個現在流出的這個致癌油它現在流出來有1300噸那請問一下這1300噸目前只回收43噸那其他的你們的掌握是流到何方"},{"start":37.206,"end":59.08,"text":"我們現在掌握了所有的流向就是它賣到哪裡去大概都已經出來了那只不過因為多數有的它已經是用掉了賣出去的話就讓民眾有一部分是在坊間市場上直接由消費者買的那就拿回去退貨"},{"start":60.501,"end":89.371,"text":"所以部長因為有一些是大商的一早聽下來感覺你們目前只有掌握43那至於其他的1250感覺已經流向不明所以你們所謂的有掌握流向因為你好像剛好回應另外一個委員說流向有掌握那你們的流向掌握就是流向不明了嘛1250其實就已經是流向不明了就是賣到哪些業者然後做成哪些產品那這些都已經掌握了已經掌握了對才會公佈"},{"start":90.031,"end":115.864,"text":"可是那個量非常的大然後到底現在最後終端的使用者是誰你們也只能夠掌握到所謂的第二層而已我們是掌握到產品就是第二層的產品都已經發布了所以換言之其實43這個數字就已經是你們終局努力的目標了嘛沒有要再繼續努力下去這個是那個回收的油啦就是還沒有賣出去的回收回來的油那有些它已經用掉了"},{"start":116.484,"end":132.795,"text":"像有些是炸的我了解那現在就是我現在要詢問的就是那個1250的數字就是等於是我們可以定義無法掌握嘛流向不敏嘛沒有進一步努力的空間了嘛其實就是看運氣誰吃到那就是誰自己去承擔了嘛"},{"start":133.635,"end":154.343,"text":"就是知道這些產品我們當然不知道每一個民眾他買了什麼所以我們公布的是這些產品還有中間有一些業者是直接拿來油炸油那些都大概都已經沒有用了了解啦但是聽起來就是流向不明啦你們所謂的油廠或流向其實就是流向不明啦好來第二個問題就是說"},{"start":156.244,"end":183.761,"text":"那現在就是關於你們昨天有發布一個下架原則你們的書面報告第二頁有提到一個下架原則那昨天7月7號其實4點開記者會的下架原則本來從20%以上的自來友已經擴散到 擴大到20%以下的你們也回收那你們的第二頁有提到這個下架原則但是我們的團隊辦公室上去找 找不到這個原則請問這個原則網路上查得到嗎"},{"start":186.775,"end":203.289,"text":"你們第二頁有提到一個下架原則是不是有發布在專區有發布嗎 如果沒有發布的話就請幫我們補上去因為我相信很多民間業者或者是人民團體或者是人民本身都非常有興趣知道這個下架原則"},{"start":204.15,"end":215.035,"text":"我跟委員說我把念一下全民也讓全民能夠了解就是食品違規案件產品下架回收封存銷毀階層之處理原則簡單來講這是經過106年的食品風險評估之議會專家委員的確立之後"},{"start":225.959,"end":247.6,"text":"分成十類的產品分為第一階層跟第二階層那我們一開始處理的時候是按照裡面的第八類的違反了衛生標準因為油脂類呢本評比是兩ppb所以在這樣的情形之下我們當初是以第一類的第一層的那為什麼第一層其實在整個風險評估的過程在"},{"start":249.742,"end":268.106,"text":"沒有問題 這些其實您剛也都有做說明那我現在的問題只是說那個下架原則找不到那確保你們有把它上架我們才能夠 民眾才能夠搜尋到這是第一件事那您有提到這是106發布的嘛好 那我現在請教第三件事情就是說因為你們昨天7月7號下午4點開記者會嘛說那個列油含量20%的加工產品都要下架嘛"},{"start":274.488,"end":290.216,"text":"那那個今天早上玉民委員送給兩位吃的那個飯糰應該也是你們昨天公布的預防性下架的範圍那個不是因為它那個這玉飯糰是這樣如果仔細看就知道它的製造日期"},{"start":291.311,"end":309.846,"text":"到它的有效期限大概都3到4天我了解啦所以我們過去用到的那些有現在都不夠了獨有所製造的產品要嘛就人民吃下去要嘛就集齊品已經下架了所以它不在你們昨天公布的範圍嗎我們只是公布讓大家所有都清楚啦"},{"start":310.686,"end":337.819,"text":"我只是一個疑問說如果它是你們昨天所公布的品項可是你的說法又是說其實它已經人民吃下肚了或者是它已經集群品已經下架那如果是這樣為什麼你們昨天又要公布它因為它已經不存在這個地球上了為什麼你們昨天公布的品名還有它我的疑問只是這樣子而已因為之前很多委員也在指教讓人民知道你有沒有吃到所以我們才會把過去的"},{"start":338.999,"end":366.546,"text":"這個通通都把它通通發布啦就是我們調查到的全部發布啦我們就沒有去篩選明來大家又覺得我們又蓋牌了什麼的我在台下坐了一整個早上我只是覺得它已經不存在地球為什麼你們昨天要發布好那我了解了反正你們就是全部羅列出來那事實上人民疑慮的你說已經不存在地球了嘛獨有所產生的產品所以現在市面上的飯糰那個都不是"},{"start":367.486,"end":394.424,"text":"了解好沒有問題那第二個問題我想請教一件事就是說我一整天聽下來我感覺好像目前還沒找到原因到底是巴西痘的問題還是自成的問題你們還要再去做調查那調查的時間點可不可以先讓我們知道跟委員說明就是說因為我們把它從4月到6月底每一個留下來的樣本我們全部都驗所以等驗出來之後如果再有什麼問題我們才會去對應說它是哪一支大約的時間表"},{"start":398.381,"end":412.392,"text":"我到底說好像有個東西檢驗數字明天要出現但是我的意思是找出原因大約的時間表我們的原因的調查大概到一個階段會是差不多在一個禮拜下禮拜我們這個出來之後應該下禮拜就會比較"},{"start":413.012,"end":436.941,"text":"所以大概一個禮拜一個禮拜左右要等我們現在這個整體檢驗一到兩個禮拜就是大約是這樣的一個時間點讓人民能夠知道到底真相是什麼那另外一件事就是說目前我們雖然不知道是A原因或B原因C原因導致的但是我們可以在後面做一些防範的措施例如說這些油脂食品它如果出產之後不管它是什麼原因所導致的可是後續如果你有做檢驗它有問題你就可以"},{"start":437.841,"end":450.388,"text":"抓到他嘛那現在的問題就是說因為我們看報章雜誌知道這些業者所謂的自主管理就是每半年檢測一次嘛對不對每半年檢測一次好那現在如果每半年檢測一次每半年檢測一次然後在兩點檢測之間有一些間隔時間所產生的油脂產品如果剛好巧妙的避開這兩個時間點那有可能就會變成檢驗上的漏網之魚"},{"start":463.234,"end":492.229,"text":"那我現在直接就想問因為你們的這個有一個叫做什麼相關食品檢測計畫的一個規則裡頭有提到這些食品驗者其實他檢測的標準有兩個一個是每半年檢測一個是每批檢測那我觀察實務上是不是都是每半年可是你們的法規有寫AB兩個選項就是逐批那我現在的意思就是說可不可以日後改的比較嚴格一點因為法規既然有寫逐批之後可不可以改成一個逐批的方式來做檢測"},{"start":493.069,"end":521.471,"text":"跟委員講說明一下就是說剛剛提到有AB案的另外那個就是指說如果你的這個週期很長的那就是逐批啦你可能一個週期一年才製造一批的那種很長的那你就是逐批啦其他的過去當然是規定是半年所以從這次的經驗之後對上游的部分因為它下去之後的那個範圍很廣所以會要求逐批驗所以你們未來要"},{"start":522.592,"end":545.789,"text":"改成竹批現在我們目前已經先要求現行還在出貨的都是用竹批確保現在在市面上所以改善措施就是往竹批的方向前進嗎大概有兩個方向要去檢討的一個就是那個檢驗的頻率就是剛剛提到的這個半年是不是太長應該要縮短那麼這個批次是什麼樣的抽"},{"start":546.59,"end":556.077,"text":"第二個是抽樣點到底是在什麼地方哪個節點哪個節點去抽樣點就是那個檢驗的數字從合格變不合格然後從沒有變兩倍變四倍那我想這是今天很多委員所提出來的所以你剛剛講的節點檢測應該就是我接下來要提出來的問題就是節點的檢測剛剛講的是頻率還有就是節點"},{"start":573.649,"end":592.74,"text":"我知道那另外還有一個就是外部我要再檢討外部所以我統整一下我第二個問題就是說其實現在就是每半年或者是足批可是足批是針對週期長的那自從發生這個事之後其實那些週期短的好像用每半年這個檢驗頻率其實是有一點過長所以你們想要縮短縮短時數"},{"start":594.961,"end":614.454,"text":"縮短那個時間那除了縮短時間有考慮竹坯嗎因為我看有一些專家學者其實是在討論竹坯是也有考慮嘛有考慮那現在第三個問題就是你講的節點嘛有可能是那所以這個問題是取樣的方式還是取樣的樣本還是兩個都有都有考慮所以你們才考慮說要增加節點嗎節點的管制還有這個抽樣的方式"},{"start":618.917,"end":639.963,"text":"了解好知道好那些我想了接下來第4個問題就是我們人民感覺非常困惑而且甚至覺得非常的不能理解的就是我們剛剛一直在提的20%含量以上以下然後以上是全面下架以下是自主管理那當然昨天你們已經懸崖勒馬了因為我相信這樣的一個"},{"start":642.063,"end":654.99,"text":"處理方式其實真的是各界的檢驗其實都是非常的嚴厲的那當然你們急踩煞車但是我有注意到你們急踩煞車的原因其實您今天也說過好幾次其實並不是20%這個數字這個做法不好是實務上真的在篩選所謂20%以上20%以下實務的操作跟這個有問題 急踩有問題"},{"start":666.115,"end":691.309,"text":"但我現在比較好奇的就是說因為人民一直對這個20%是感覺到有疑問的那你們說那是專家學者的建議那人民覺得是一個天兵的做法然後那個眼冒金星然後頭出現三條線那現在問題出現了就是我想要問的就是說可不可以給我們專家建議的一些資料例如說到底他的科學依據是什麼他的利潤基礎是什麼可不可以請提供會議記錄可以啦"},{"start":692.59,"end":713.597,"text":"我們提供會議紀錄 提供會議紀錄嗎 好OK好來那接著呢我想問一下因為今天委員很多也提到說如果都只仰賴業者自主管理自主管理恐怕這樣的案件以後還是會有發生的可能性那當然你們今天書面報告 經經報告經經的這個錯違有提到三項第一個就圓銅 第二個就是"},{"start":714.457,"end":740.55,"text":"加強自主管理 然後接著有提到說你們法規要去做一些修正那其實我覺得委員今天很多也提到你不能夠只仰賴業者自主管理我們主管機關的稽查責任要出來那現在呢 業者呢他其實要遵守一個叫HACCP的制度只是他有沒有遵守變成是有人要去監督有人要去稽查這樣子請問一下政府在這件事上扮演的角色你們如何去稽查"},{"start":741.63,"end":744.534,"text":"你們如何去稽查業者有沒有落實HACCP"},{"start":747.567,"end":763.19,"text":"這個是有主要是在地方的就是茶廠啦就是HACCP他都會有定期的去稽查這個部分是由地方在執行你們應該是督導啦你們是實施頒布一個計畫頒布一個指引然後他們是你們是出頭腦他們是出手腳去做執行好那我現在問一件事就是我們有查到113年有一個專案的稽查"},{"start":773.912,"end":792.457,"text":"總共查了58家那事實上我們去查這個主計總處發現全台灣有263家的這個動植物的這個油脂製造業那你們113年只查了58家所以比例大概是四分之一或五分之一"},{"start":794.217,"end":799.98,"text":"這個稽查很重要為什麼因為這個就是去查所謂業者有沒有落實這個HACCP這樣的一個制度那現在問題出來了請問一下這個專案只查了58家母群體其實大概有263家請問選案的標準是什麼"},{"start":811.829,"end":825.021,"text":"我們用風險如果大型的影響大的我們查過去有違規的加強上次沒過下次我們一定再查他所以他是在風險的基礎上希望能夠達到這樣的效果"},{"start":825.521,"end":847.286,"text":"所以以風險基礎 以有違規的為優先 為列入嘛以有違規的為列入我每一年呢 都會針對它過去的歷史經驗去確立今年抽的 而不是都是我瞭解 58對比263有沒有可能普查因為這個食安問題如果這個嚴重這麼重要 我們今年度我們就全面來啟動"},{"start":848.226,"end":871.748,"text":"會普查那我現在問一個問題就是說請問一下我記得這個專案稽查如果沒記錯好像是107年或106年開始實施的所以到現在應該已經實施10多年了請問一下有沒有中聯專案稽查的結果過去10年或者是過去5年那中聯有沒有散進HACCP的資料有嗎"},{"start":872.529,"end":888.382,"text":"報告委員 我們有查確實資料的部分 容我們後面再補所以有嗎 因為我有去看你們發表其實就是食藥署發表的學術論文你們在過去的四年其實你們有去做稽查然後稽查有做出一個學術報告總共稽查295件"},{"start":891.644,"end":915.14,"text":"合格的是293件不合格的是兩件而已然後你們自己下的結論是可見呢實用油脂呢製造業者在食品品質上有相當的自主管理的水準我們覺得這個結論對照今天發生的事情顯得格外的諷刺所以我覺得paperwork做得很漂亮那我們也不是說全面的要抹煞只是希望"},{"start":916.04,"end":944.92,"text":"從這個案件當中能夠讓你們再去看普查的結果是否客觀因為我相信你們看到這樣的結果你們也比較容易掉以輕心如果今天普查出來的結果比較例如說是29293現在對比2如果今天是50 50這樣的一個數字也許你們會比較有危機感他這樣看起來可能不知道是不是相對沒有危機感然後失去鬆懈的一個態度這樣子這是我擔心的所以也期許未來你們能夠再注意一下這一點"},{"start":946.26,"end":963.752,"text":"接著就是因為現在我相信使用到這些劣質油的受害者其實是存在的我想不管是10年前的鼎新也好或者是這些統一或者是這些強灌的油其實受害者非常的多一些小寶團體行政院小寶處也有協同這些受害的消費者來求償"},{"start":967.634,"end":979.077,"text":"那現在我們的那個食品安全管理法嘛其實56條之一有一個食安基金然後針對這種團體訴訟其實有律師費的補助跟這些訴訟費用的補助請問這個案件可不可以比照辦理在我們這個案件的話是在我們這個食安基金的補助的適用條件範圍內所以可以嗎可以協助所以你們未來也會展現積極的態度嗎就是商請行政院小寶處來協助消費者求償這個案件"},{"start":997.06,"end":1022.886,"text":"如果是依法條的話是由地方政府處理團體 如果有團體訴訟的時候我知道 但是應該是你們跟行政院小寶處還有小寶團體中間應該有一些連結性跟一些督導性所以我們只是想跟你們確認說中央主管機關在這邊協助的一些也許不是第一線的角色但是後面的監督角色 push 的角度角色應該要呈現出來"},{"start":1024.126,"end":1041.118,"text":"好好好因為這其實有潛力有非常多潛力那個食藥署都有介入然後行政院小島處有介入然後最後成功都是成功成功的案例那最後就請這個部長跟衛福部這邊可不可以一個月給我們一下書面資料就是說"},{"start":1042.459,"end":1059.154,"text":"我想我第一個問題剛其實已經得到一個答案了嘛就是43頓有掌握其他應該都是流向不明的就是但是還是希望你們能夠再盡一點力看能不能再追出一些劣質油因為你把它追出來至少在市面上流竄的會相對的變少"},{"start":1061.556,"end":1086.39,"text":"所以但是我還是希望你們能夠再去思考到底因回收量多少以使用量多少有辦法推估以使用量嗎沒辦法嘛聽起來流向不明已經沒辦法了嘛好那也希望你們這邊能夠再做一些說明那如果有一些新的數字再做更新那自然有的原因剛也請你們再給我們書面資料那還有檢驗原因不一的原因這些部長也都答應我那20%的利潤基礎"},{"start":1088.551,"end":1113.902,"text":"專案集合選案的標準是什麼然後過去五年集合中聯的這些專案稽查的項目跟結果剛剛那個食藥署署長也表示會提供那團體訴訟表示依法會補助然後再加上也在協助這個消費者求償這個過程當中也會跟行政院消保處有一個比較積極的角色出現這些都沒問題的可以一個月之後給我們回覆資料謝謝"},{"start":1117.668,"end":1117.828,"text":"謝謝區委會會委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:24.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:26.961000+08:00","text":"有請衛福部長、食藥署署長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:26.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:31.042000+08:00","text":"主席還有各位與會的同仁，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:31.042000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:32.192500+08:00","text":"請部長、署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:32.192500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:33.343000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:33.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:09:50.368000+08:00","text":"部長，我想跟你請教一件事，現在流出的致癌油有1,300噸，這1,300噸目前只回收43噸，就你們的掌握，其他的是流到何方？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:09:52.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:18.302000+08:00","text":"我們現在掌握了所有的流向，就是他賣到哪裡去，大概都已經出來了，只不過因為多數的油已經用掉了，對賣出去的部分，有一部分是在坊間、市場上直接由消費者買的，那就拿回去退貨，有一些是大批發商的……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:18.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:31.366000+08:00","text":"部長，一早聽下來，我感覺你們目前只有掌握43噸，至於其他的1,250噸已經流向不明，所以你們所謂的有掌握流向，因為你剛剛回應另外一個委員說：流向有掌握。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:31.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:33.647000+08:00","text":"那你們的流向有掌握的意思就是……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:33.647000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:34.647000+08:00","text":"流向的意思是……","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:34.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:34.948000+08:00","text":"流向不明了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:35.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:36.968000+08:00","text":"1,250噸其實就已經是流向不明了。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:37.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:38.849000+08:00","text":"賣到哪些業者？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:39.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:40.690000+08:00","text":"做成哪些產品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:41.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:42.590000+08:00","text":"這些都已經掌握了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:42.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:43.591000+08:00","text":"已經掌握了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:44.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:44.351000+08:00","text":"對，所以才會公布……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:45.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:52.655000+08:00","text":"可是那個量非常的大，到底現在終端的使用者是誰，你們也只能夠掌握到第二層而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:52.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:10:56.877000+08:00","text":"我們是掌握到產品，第二層的產品都已經發布了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:10:57.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:03.680000+08:00","text":"換言之，其實43噸這個數字就已經是你們終局努力的目標了，沒有要再繼續努力下去？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:03.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:13.305000+08:00","text":"這個是回收的油，還沒有賣出去、回收回來的油；但有些已經用掉了，像有些是炸的……","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:13.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:24.312000+08:00","text":"我了解，我現在要詢問其他的1,250噸，這個數字等於我們可以定義成無法掌握、流向不明、沒有進一步努力的空間的嘛！","quality":0.83},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:24.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:27.774000+08:00","text":"其實就是看運氣，誰吃到那就是自己去承擔了嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:28.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:36.698000+08:00","text":"就是知道這些產品……我們當然不知道每一個民眾買了什麼，所以我們公布的是這些產品。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:37.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:43.181000+08:00","text":"還有中間有一些業者是直接拿來油炸用，那些大概都已經沒有用了……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:43.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:11:48.423000+08:00","text":"了解，但是聽起來就是流向不明，你們所謂有掌握流向，其實就是流向不明啦！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:11:49.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:12:11.977000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，你們昨天有發布一個下架原則，書面報告第2頁也有提到，昨天7月7號4點開記者會的下架原則是你們已經從本來致癌物含量20%以上的致癌油要下架，擴大到20%以下的也回收。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:12:13.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:12:18.761000+08:00","text":"你們第2頁有提到這個下架原則，但是我們的團隊辦公室上去找找不到這個原則，請問這個原則網路上查得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:12:21.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:12:28.561000+08:00","text":"你們第2頁有提到，但有發布嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:12:28.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:12:38.289000+08:00","text":"如果沒有發布的話，就請補上去，因為我相信很多民間業者或者是人民團體、民眾都非常有興趣知道這個下架原則。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:12:39.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:12:48.254000+08:00","text":"委員，我唸一下全名「食品違規案件─產品下架、回收、封存、銷毀階層之處理原則」，也讓全民能夠了解。","quality":0.725},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:12:48.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:05.964000+08:00","text":"簡單來講，這是經過106年食品風險評估諮議會專家委員的確立之後分成十類的產品，分為第一階層跟第二階層。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:06.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:15.293000+08:00","text":"我們一開始處理的時候，是按照裡面第八類違反衛生標準，因為油脂類的苯駢芘是2 ppb。","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:16.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:21.859000+08:00","text":"在這樣的情形之下，我們當初是以第一類第一層的標準來下架，但為什麼是第一層？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:21.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:22.560000+08:00","text":"其實在整個風險評估的過程，我就專家委員提到的一些建議跟您說明，……","quality":0.414},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:24.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:38.105000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，這些其實您剛剛也都有說明，我現在的問題只是那個下架原則找不到，要確保你們有把它上架，我們民眾才能夠搜尋到，這是第一件事，您有提到這是106發布的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:39.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:13:57.752000+08:00","text":"我現在請教第三件事情，因為你們昨天7月7號下午4點開記者會說劣油含量20%的加工產品都要下架，今天早上育敏委員送給兩位吃的飯糰，應該也是在你們昨天公布預防性下架的範圍……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:13:57.752000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:09.153000+08:00","text":"那個不是，御飯糰是這樣，如果仔細看就知道它的製造日期到有效期限大概都3到4天……","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:09.153000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:10.674000+08:00","text":"我了解啦，這個剛剛已經回答過了……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:10.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:14.557000+08:00","text":"所以我們過去用到的那些油，現在都沒有了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:14.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:19.721000+08:00","text":"毒油所製造的產品，要嘛就人民吃下去，要嘛就即期品已經下架了……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:19.721000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:20.721000+08:00","text":"那個都沒有了，已經下架了，所以沒有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:19.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:22.103000+08:00","text":"所以它不在你們昨天公布的範圍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:22.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:24.825000+08:00","text":"我們只是公布讓大家都清楚啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:25.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:38.552000+08:00","text":"我只是一個疑問，如果它是你們昨天所公布的品項，可是你的說法又是其實它已經被人民吃下肚了，或者它已經是即期品、已經下架，如果是這樣，為什麼你們昨天又要公布它？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:38.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:42.654000+08:00","text":"因為它已經不存在這個地球上了，為什麼你們昨天公布的品名還有它？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:43.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:44.475000+08:00","text":"我的疑問只是這樣子而已。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:44.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:58.680000+08:00","text":"因為之前很多委員也有指教，要讓人民知道他有沒有吃到嘛，所以我們才會把過去的統統發布，我們調查到的全部發布啦！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:58.680000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:14:59.680000+08:00","text":"了解，我知道，只是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:14:58.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:03.842000+08:00","text":"我們沒有去篩選，免得大家又覺得我們又蓋牌了，就全部……","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:03.842000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:05.242000+08:00","text":"我理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:05.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:10.583000+08:00","text":"我在臺下坐了一整個早上，我只是覺得它已經不存在於地球了，為什麼你們昨天要發布？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:10.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:13.584000+08:00","text":"好，我了解了，反正你們就是全部羅列出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:13.584000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:14.584000+08:00","text":"全部統統羅列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:13.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:17.705000+08:00","text":"事實上人民所疑慮的，你說已經不存在地球了，關於毒油製造的產品……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:19.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:21.526000+08:00","text":"飯糰的部分沒有了，現在市面上的飯糰都不是……","quality":0.579},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:22.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:23.807000+08:00","text":"了解，好，沒有問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:24.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:33.814000+08:00","text":"接著，我想請教，我一整天聽下來，我感覺目前好像還沒找到原因，你們還要再去調查到底是巴西黃豆的問題？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:33.814000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:34.814000+08:00","text":"還是製程的問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:34.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:36.035000+08:00","text":"調查的時間點可不可以先讓我們知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:37.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:45.381000+08:00","text":"因為我們把它從4月到6月底所留下來的每一個樣本，全部都驗，所以等驗出來之後……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:45.381000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:46.381000+08:00","text":"有，我剛才有聽到，我知道二十幾，那時間表是？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:45.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:49.224000+08:00","text":"如果再有什麼問題，我們才會去對應它是哪一批……","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:49.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:49.404000+08:00","text":"大約的時間表？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:53.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:15:58.625000+08:00","text":"我知道你說好像有個東西、檢驗數字明天要出現，但是我想知道找出原因大約的時間表？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:15:58.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:07.392000+08:00","text":"我們原因的調查大概到一個階段，差不多一個禮拜、下禮拜，我們這個出來之後應該下禮拜就會比較……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:08.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:09.633000+08:00","text":"所以大概一個禮拜左右？好。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:09.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:11.513000+08:00","text":"要等我們現在這一批檢驗出來。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:11.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:17.095000+08:00","text":"理解，一到兩個禮拜，大約是這樣的一個時間點，讓人民能夠知道到底真相是什麼。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:17.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:33.402000+08:00","text":"另外一件事，目前我們雖然不知道是A原因、B原因、C原因導致的，但是我們可以在後面做一些防範的措施，例如說這些油脂食品出產之後，不管它是什麼原因所導致的，可是後續如果你有做檢驗，有問題你就可以抓到它嘛！對。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:34.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:41.386000+08:00","text":"現在的問題就是說，因為我們看報章雜誌知道這些業者所謂的自主管理就是每半年檢測一次，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:42.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:16:45.388000+08:00","text":"現在如果每半年檢測一次、每半年檢測一次，在兩點檢測之間有一些間隔時間，這時所產生的油脂產品如果剛好巧妙地避開這兩個時間點，有可能就會變成檢驗上的漏網之魚。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:16:58.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:17:15.523000+08:00","text":"我直接問，因為你們有一個叫做相關食品檢測計畫的規則，裡頭有提到其實這些食品業者檢測的標準有兩個，一個是每半年檢測，一個是每批檢測，但就我觀察，實務上是不是都是每半年？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:17:15.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:17:23.267000+08:00","text":"可是你們的法規有寫A、B兩個選項、逐批，所以以後可不可改得比較嚴格一點？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:17:23.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:17:27.229000+08:00","text":"因為法規既然有寫逐批，可不可以改成逐批的方式來做檢測？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:17:28.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:17:56.131000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，剛剛提到有A、B案的，另外那個就是指如果你週期很長的，那就是逐批，可能一個週期是一年才製造一批的、很長的那種，就是逐批；至於其他的，當然過去規定是半年，所以從這次的經驗之後，對上游的部分，因為它下去之後的範圍很廣，所以會要求逐批驗。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:17:56.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:17:58.213000+08:00","text":"所以你們未來要改成逐批的方式？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:17:59.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:04.938000+08:00","text":"我們目前已經先要求，現行還在出貨的都是用逐批，確保現在在市面上的沒有問題。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:05.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:08.260000+08:00","text":"了解，所以改善措施就是往逐批的方向前進嘛！","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:08.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:17.387000+08:00","text":"大概有兩個方向要去檢討的，一個就是檢驗的頻率，像剛剛提到的，半年是不是太長，應該要縮短？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:19.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:20.769000+08:00","text":"批次要怎樣的抽？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:21.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:26.554000+08:00","text":"第二個是抽樣點，到底是在什麼地方，把哪個節點當作抽樣點？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:26.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:27.554000+08:00","text":"我知道，這是我第三個問題。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:26.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:28.875000+08:00","text":"檢驗的數字從合格變不合格，然後從沒有變兩倍、變四倍，我想這是今天很多委員所提出來的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:28.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:30.296000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛講的節點檢測應該就是我接下來要提出來的問題嘛！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:30.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:31.077000+08:00","text":"這是節點的檢測，剛剛講的是頻率，還有節點。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:48.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:48.889000+08:00","text":"我知道，你們……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:49.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:18:52.551000+08:00","text":"另外還有一個外部，還要再檢討外部。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:18:52.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:07.460000+08:00","text":"所以我統整一下問題，其實現在就是每半年或者是逐批，可是逐批是針對週期長的，但自從發生這件事之後，針對那些週期短的，用每半年這個檢驗頻率好像是有點過長，所以你們想要縮短時間……","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:07.460000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:11.362000+08:00","text":"因為量大，對，縮短頻率。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:11.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:13.284000+08:00","text":"除了縮短時間，有考慮逐批嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:13.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:17.306000+08:00","text":"因為我看有一些專家學者其實是在討論逐批，也有考慮嘛？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:17.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:18.407000+08:00","text":"也有考慮。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:18.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:26.112000+08:00","text":"現在第三個問題，你講的節點有可能……這個問題是取樣的方式，還是取樣的樣本？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:26.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:27.053000+08:00","text":"還是兩個都有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:27.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:28.353000+08:00","text":"都有考慮。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:28.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:29.114000+08:00","text":"所以你們才考慮要增加節點嘛？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:29.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:29.434000+08:00","text":"對，節點的管制還有抽樣的方式。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:33.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:34.957000+08:00","text":"了解，好，知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:37.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:19:50.981000+08:00","text":"接下來第四個問題，人民感覺非常困惑，甚至覺得非常不能理解的我們剛剛一直在提的20%含量以上或以下，現在以上是全面下架，以下是自主管理嘛！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:19:51.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:20:43.028000+08:00","text":"當然昨天你們已經懸崖勒馬了，因為我相信這樣的處理方式，其實各界的檢驗都是非常的嚴厲的，當然你們急踩煞車，但是我有注意到你們急踩煞車的原因，其實您今天也說到好幾次，其實並不是20%這個數字、這個做法不好，是真的在篩選所謂20%以上、20%以下，實務的操作跟稽查上有問題，但我現在比較好奇的是，因為人民一直對這個20%是感覺到有疑問的，你們說那是專家學者的建議，但人民覺得是一個天兵的作法，眼冒金星、頭出現三條線，現在問題出現了，我想要問的就是，可不可以給我們專家所建議的一些資料，例如說到底它的科學依據是什麼？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:20:43.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:20:45.109000+08:00","text":"它的立論基礎是什麼？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:20:45.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:20:45.789000+08:00","text":"可不可以請提供？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:20:47.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:20:49.211000+08:00","text":"我們提供會議紀錄。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:20:50.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:13.259000+08:00","text":"OK，接著我想問一下，因為今天很多委員也提到，如果都只仰賴業者自主管理，恐怕這樣的案件以後還是會有發生的可能性，當然你們今天書面報告的精進作為有提到三項，第一個就是源頭，第二個加強自主管理，接著有提到你們法規要去做一些修正。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:13.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:27.786000+08:00","text":"其實我覺得很多委員今天也提到你不能夠只仰賴業者自主管理，我們主管機關的稽查責任要出來，現在業者要遵守一個叫HACCP的制度，只是他有沒有遵守？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:28.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:30.827000+08:00","text":"變成是有人要去監督、有人要去稽查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:32.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:39.514000+08:00","text":"請問政府在這件事上扮演的角色，你們如何去稽查業者有沒有落實HACCP？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:42.567000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:54.109000+08:00","text":"這個主要是在地方的查廠，就是HACCP，都會定期去稽查，這個部分是由地方在執行……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:54.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:54.609000+08:00","text":"你們應該是督導啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:54.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:21:55.570000+08:00","text":"你們是頒布一個計畫、頒布一個指引，你們是出頭腦，他們是出手腳去做執行。對。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:21:56.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:30.318000+08:00","text":"我現在問一件事，我們查到113年有一個專案稽查，總共查了58家，事實上，我們去查主計總處統計資料發現全臺灣有263家動植物油脂製造業，你們113年只查了58家，所以比例大概是四分之一或五分之一，現在稽查很重要，為什麼？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:30.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:33.219000+08:00","text":"因為就是去查所謂業者有沒有落實HACCP制度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:33.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:34.980000+08:00","text":"現在問題出來了，這個專案只查了58家，母群體大概有263家，請問選案的標準是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:46.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:56.478000+08:00","text":"我們用風險，如果大型的、影響大的，我們查，過去有違規的也要加強；上次沒過，下次我們一定再查他。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:56.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:00.001000+08:00","text":"所以是在風險的基礎上，希望能夠達到這樣的效果。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:00.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:04.182000+08:00","text":"所以風險基礎，是以過去有違規的為優先列入？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:06.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:12.284000+08:00","text":"對，我們每一年都會針對他過去的歷史經驗，來確立今年要抽的，而不是挑著來抽。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:15.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:17.305000+08:00","text":"了解，58對比263，有沒有可能普查？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:17.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:20.505000+08:00","text":"因為這個食安問題如果這麼嚴重……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:20.525000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:22.286000+08:00","text":"我想這個問題這麼重要，我們今年度就全面來啟動。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:23.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:23.426000+08:00","text":"好，會普查。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:25.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:40.362000+08:00","text":"我現在問一個問題，我記得這個專案稽查，如果我沒記錯，好像是從107年或106年開始實施的，所以到現在應該已經實施十多年了，請問一下有沒有中聯專案稽查的結果？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:41.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:46.748000+08:00","text":"過去十年或者是過去五年，中聯有沒有善盡HACCP的資料，有嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:47.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:52.473000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們有查，確實的資料，容我們後面再補給您。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:52.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:52.733000+08:00","text":"所以有嘛？對。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:53.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:24:19.272000+08:00","text":"因為我有去看你們的發表，就是食藥署發表的學術論文，你們在過去四年有去做稽查，然後稽查有做出一個學術報告，總共稽查295件，合格的是293件；不合格的是兩件而已，然後你們自己下的結論是，可見食用油脂製造業者在食品品質上有相當自主管理的水準。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:24:20.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:24:59.920000+08:00","text":"我們覺得這個結論對照今天發生的事情，顯得格外的諷刺，所以我覺得paperwork做得很漂亮，我們也不是全面的要抹煞，只是希望從這個案件當中，能夠讓你們再去看普查的結果是否客觀，因為我相信你們看到這樣的結果也比較容易掉以輕心，如果今天普查出來的結果，例如現在是293對比2，如果今天是50比50這樣的數字，也許你們會比較有危機感，它這樣看起來不知道是不是相對沒有危機感，而失去警戒的態度，這是我擔心的，所以也期許未來你們能夠再注意一下這一點。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:01.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:28.455000+08:00","text":"接著，因為我相信食用到這些劣質油的受害者，其實是存在的，我想不管是十年前的頂新也好，或者是統一、強冠的油，其實受害者非常地多，一些消保團體、行政院消保處，也有協同這些受害的消費者來求償，現在食品安全管理法第五十六條之一有一個食安基金，針對這種團體訴訟，其實有律師費的補助跟訴訟費用的補助。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:28.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:28.976000+08:00","text":"請問這個案件可不可以比照辦理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:29.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:30.976000+08:00","text":"這個案件是在食安基金補助的適用條件範圍內。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:30.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:31.096000+08:00","text":"所以可以嘛？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:31.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:31.356000+08:00","text":"可以協助。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:31.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:34.057000+08:00","text":"所以你們未來也會展現積極的態度，就是商請行政院消保處來協助消費者求償這個案件。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:52.060000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:00.282000+08:00","text":"對，如果是依法條的話，是由地方政府，如果有團體訴訟的時候是由地方政府……","quality":0.774},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:00.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:07.503000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是應該是你們跟行政院消保處還有消保團體，中間應該有一些連結性跟督導性？對。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:08.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:17.886000+08:00","text":"我們只是想跟你們確認，中央主管機關在協助的，也許不是第一線的角色，但是後面的監督角色、push角色應該要呈現出來嘛？會！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:19.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:21.508000+08:00","text":"因為這其實有前例、有非常多前例。有。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:23.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:29.914000+08:00","text":"食藥署都有介入、行政院消保處有介入，最後都是成功的案例。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:31.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:01.319000+08:00","text":"最後，請部長跟衛福部可不可以一個月給我們以下書面資料：第一個問題，剛剛其實已經得到一個答案了，就是43公噸有掌握，其他應該都是流向不明的，但是還是希望你們能夠再盡一點力，看能不能再追出一些劣質油，因為你把它追出來，至少在市面上流竄的會相對的變少，但是我還是希望你們能夠再去思考，到底應回收量多少？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:02.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:02.960000+08:00","text":"已使用量多少？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:03.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:04.561000+08:00","text":"有辦法推估已使用量嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:04.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:06.822000+08:00","text":"沒辦法嘛，聽起來流向不明已經沒辦法了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:07.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:47.061000+08:00","text":"好，也希望你們能夠再做一些說明，如果有一些新的數字再做更新，自來油的原因剛剛也請你們再給我們書面資料，還有檢驗不一的原因，部長你也都有答應我，20%的利潤基礎、專案稽核的選案標準是什麼、過去五年稽核中聯專案稽查的項目跟結果，剛剛食藥署署長也表示會提供，團體訴訟表示依法會補助，在協助消費者求償這個過程當中，也會跟行政院消保處有比較積極的角色出現，這些都沒問題吧？可以。","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"邱委員慧洳","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:47.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:48.882000+08:00","text":"一個月之後給我們回復資料？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:48.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:52.668000+08:00","text":"好，可以，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:53.168000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:55.739429+08:00","text":"謝謝邱慧洳委員質詢。","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:56.039429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:58.325143+08:00","text":"請邱鎮軍委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1031,"blocks":[["邱委員慧洳：（12時9分）有請衛福部長、食藥署署長。主席還有各位與會的同仁，大家好。"],["主席：請部長、署長。"],["石部長崇良：邱委員好。"],["邱委員慧洳：部長，我想跟你請教一件事，現在流出的致癌油有1,300噸，這1,300噸目前只回收43噸，就你們的掌握，其他的是流到何方？"],["石部長崇良：我們現在掌握了所有的流向，就是他賣到哪裡去，大概都已經出來了，只不過因為多數的油已經用掉了，對賣出去的部分，有一部分是在坊間、市場上直接由消費者買的，那就拿回去退貨，有一些是大批發商的……"],["邱委員慧洳：部長，一早聽下來，我感覺你們目前只有掌握43噸，至於其他的1,250噸已經流向不明，所以你們所謂的有掌握流向，因為你剛剛回應另外一個委員說：流向有掌握。那你們的流向有掌握的意思就是……"],["石部長崇良：流向的意思是……"],["邱委員慧洳：流向不明了嘛！1,250噸其實就已經是流向不明了。"],["石部長崇良：賣到哪些業者？做成哪些產品？這些都已經掌握了。"],["邱委員慧洳：已經掌握了？"],["石部長崇良：對，所以才會公布……"],["邱委員慧洳：可是那個量非常的大，到底現在終端的使用者是誰，你們也只能夠掌握到第二層而已。"],["石部長崇良：我們是掌握到產品，第二層的產品都已經發布了。"],["邱委員慧洳：換言之，其實43噸這個數字就已經是你們終局努力的目標了，沒有要再繼續努力下去？"],["石部長崇良：這個是回收的油，還沒有賣出去、回收回來的油；但有些已經用掉了，像有些是炸的……"],["邱委員慧洳：我了解，我現在要詢問其他的1,250噸，這個數字等於我們可以定義成無法掌握、流向不明、沒有進一步努力的空間的嘛！其實就是看運氣，誰吃到那就是自己去承擔了嘛！"],["石部長崇良：就是知道這些產品……我們當然不知道每一個民眾買了什麼，所以我們公布的是這些產品。還有中間有一些業者是直接拿來油炸用，那些大概都已經沒有用了……"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，但是聽起來就是流向不明，你們所謂有掌握流向，其實就是流向不明啦！","第二個問題，你們昨天有發布一個下架原則，書面報告第2頁也有提到，昨天7月7號4點開記者會的下架原則是你們已經從本來致癌物含量20%以上的致癌油要下架，擴大到20%以下的也回收。你們第2頁有提到這個下架原則，但是我們的團隊辦公室上去找找不到這個原則，請問這個原則網路上查得到嗎？你們第2頁有提到，但有發布嗎？如果沒有發布的話，就請補上去，因為我相信很多民間業者或者是人民團體、民眾都非常有興趣知道這個下架原則。"],["姜署長至剛：委員，我唸一下全名「食品違規案件─產品下架、回收、封存、銷毀階層之處理原則」，也讓全民能夠了解。簡單來講，這是經過106年食品風險評估諮議會專家委員的確立之後分成十類的產品，分為第一階層跟第二階層。我們一開始處理的時候，是按照裡面第八類違反衛生標準，因為油脂類的苯駢芘是2 ppb。在這樣的情形之下，我們當初是以第一類第一層的標準來下架，但為什麼是第一層？其實在整個風險評估的過程，我就專家委員提到的一些建議跟您說明，……"],["邱委員慧洳：沒有問題，這些其實您剛剛也都有說明，我現在的問題只是那個下架原則找不到，要確保你們有把它上架，我們民眾才能夠搜尋到，這是第一件事，您有提到這是106發布的。","我現在請教第三件事情，因為你們昨天7月7號下午4點開記者會說劣油含量20%的加工產品都要下架，今天早上育敏委員送給兩位吃的飯糰，應該也是在你們昨天公布預防性下架的範圍……"],["石部長崇良：那個不是，御飯糰是這樣，如果仔細看就知道它的製造日期到有效期限大概都3到4天……"],["邱委員慧洳：我了解啦，這個剛剛已經回答過了……"],["石部長崇良：所以我們過去用到的那些油，現在都沒有了。"],["邱委員慧洳：毒油所製造的產品，要嘛就人民吃下去，要嘛就即期品已經下架了……"],["石部長崇良：那個都沒有了，已經下架了，所以沒有……"],["邱委員慧洳：所以它不在你們昨天公布的範圍？"],["石部長崇良：我們只是公布讓大家都清楚啦！"],["邱委員慧洳：我只是一個疑問，如果它是你們昨天所公布的品項，可是你的說法又是其實它已經被人民吃下肚了，或者它已經是即期品、已經下架，如果是這樣，為什麼你們昨天又要公布它？因為它已經不存在這個地球上了，為什麼你們昨天公布的品名還有它？我的疑問只是這樣子而已。"],["石部長崇良：因為之前很多委員也有指教，要讓人民知道他有沒有吃到嘛，所以我們才會把過去的統統發布，我們調查到的全部發布啦！"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，我知道，只是……"],["石部長崇良：我們沒有去篩選，免得大家又覺得我們又蓋牌了，就全部……"],["邱委員慧洳：我理解。我在臺下坐了一整個早上，我只是覺得它已經不存在於地球了，為什麼你們昨天要發布？好，我了解了，反正你們就是全部羅列出來？"],["石部長崇良：全部統統羅列。"],["邱委員慧洳：事實上人民所疑慮的，你說已經不存在地球了，關於毒油製造的產品……"],["石部長崇良：飯糰的部分沒有了，現在市面上的飯糰都不是……"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，好，沒有問題。接著，我想請教，我一整天聽下來，我感覺目前好像還沒找到原因，你們還要再去調查到底是巴西黃豆的問題？還是製程的問題？調查的時間點可不可以先讓我們知道？"],["石部長崇良：因為我們把它從4月到6月底所留下來的每一個樣本，全部都驗，所以等驗出來之後……"],["邱委員慧洳：有，我剛才有聽到，我知道二十幾，那時間表是？"],["石部長崇良：如果再有什麼問題，我們才會去對應它是哪一批……"],["邱委員慧洳：大約的時間表？我知道你說好像有個東西、檢驗數字明天要出現，但是我想知道找出原因大約的時間表？"],["石部長崇良：我們原因的調查大概到一個階段，差不多一個禮拜、下禮拜，我們這個出來之後應該下禮拜就會比較……"],["邱委員慧洳：所以大概一個禮拜左右？好。"],["石部長崇良：要等我們現在這一批檢驗出來。"],["邱委員慧洳：理解，一到兩個禮拜，大約是這樣的一個時間點，讓人民能夠知道到底真相是什麼。另外一件事，目前我們雖然不知道是A原因、B原因、C原因導致的，但是我們可以在後面做一些防範的措施，例如說這些油脂食品出產之後，不管它是什麼原因所導致的，可是後續如果你有做檢驗，有問題你就可以抓到它嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["邱委員慧洳：現在的問題就是說，因為我們看報章雜誌知道這些業者所謂的自主管理就是每半年檢測一次，對不對？現在如果每半年檢測一次、每半年檢測一次，在兩點檢測之間有一些間隔時間，這時所產生的油脂產品如果剛好巧妙地避開這兩個時間點，有可能就會變成檢驗上的漏網之魚。我直接問，因為你們有一個叫做相關食品檢測計畫的規則，裡頭有提到其實這些食品業者檢測的標準有兩個，一個是每半年檢測，一個是每批檢測，但就我觀察，實務上是不是都是每半年？可是你們的法規有寫A、B兩個選項、逐批，所以以後可不可改得比較嚴格一點？因為法規既然有寫逐批，可不可以改成逐批的方式來做檢測？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，剛剛提到有A、B案的，另外那個就是指如果你週期很長的，那就是逐批，可能一個週期是一年才製造一批的、很長的那種，就是逐批；至於其他的，當然過去規定是半年，所以從這次的經驗之後，對上游的部分，因為它下去之後的範圍很廣，所以會要求逐批驗。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以你們未來要改成逐批的方式？"],["石部長崇良：我們目前已經先要求，現行還在出貨的都是用逐批，確保現在在市面上的沒有問題。"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，所以改善措施就是往逐批的方向前進嘛！"],["石部長崇良：大概有兩個方向要去檢討的，一個就是檢驗的頻率，像剛剛提到的，半年是不是太長，應該要縮短？批次要怎樣的抽？第二個是抽樣點，到底是在什麼地方，把哪個節點當作抽樣點？"],["邱委員慧洳：我知道，這是我第三個問題。檢驗的數字從合格變不合格，然後從沒有變兩倍、變四倍，我想這是今天很多委員所提出來的。所以你剛剛講的節點檢測應該就是我接下來要提出來的問題嘛！"],["石部長崇良：這是節點的檢測，剛剛講的是頻率，還有節點。"],["邱委員慧洳：我知道，你們……"],["石部長崇良：另外還有一個外部，還要再檢討外部。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以我統整一下問題，其實現在就是每半年或者是逐批，可是逐批是針對週期長的，但自從發生這件事之後，針對那些週期短的，用每半年這個檢驗頻率好像是有點過長，所以你們想要縮短時間……"],["石部長崇良：因為量大，對，縮短頻率。"],["邱委員慧洳：除了縮短時間，有考慮逐批嗎？因為我看有一些專家學者其實是在討論逐批，也有考慮嘛？"],["石部長崇良：也有考慮。"],["邱委員慧洳：現在第三個問題，你講的節點有可能……這個問題是取樣的方式，還是取樣的樣本？還是兩個都有？"],["石部長崇良：都有考慮。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以你們才考慮要增加節點嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對，節點的管制還有抽樣的方式。"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，好，知道。接下來第四個問題，人民感覺非常困惑，甚至覺得非常不能理解的我們剛剛一直在提的20%含量以上或以下，現在以上是全面下架，以下是自主管理嘛！當然昨天你們已經懸崖勒馬了，因為我相信這樣的處理方式，其實各界的檢驗都是非常的嚴厲的，當然你們急踩煞車，但是我有注意到你們急踩煞車的原因，其實您今天也說到好幾次，其實並不是20%這個數字、這個做法不好，是真的在篩選所謂20%以上、20%以下，實務的操作跟稽查上有問題，但我現在比較好奇的是，因為人民一直對這個20%是感覺到有疑問的，你們說那是專家學者的建議，但人民覺得是一個天兵的作法，眼冒金星、頭出現三條線，現在問題出現了，我想要問的就是，可不可以給我們專家所建議的一些資料，例如說到底它的科學依據是什麼？它的立論基礎是什麼？可不可以請提供？"],["石部長崇良：我們提供會議紀錄。"],["邱委員慧洳：OK，接著我想問一下，因為今天很多委員也提到，如果都只仰賴業者自主管理，恐怕這樣的案件以後還是會有發生的可能性，當然你們今天書面報告的精進作為有提到三項，第一個就是源頭，第二個加強自主管理，接著有提到你們法規要去做一些修正。其實我覺得很多委員今天也提到你不能夠只仰賴業者自主管理，我們主管機關的稽查責任要出來，現在業者要遵守一個叫HACCP的制度，只是他有沒有遵守？變成是有人要去監督、有人要去稽查。請問政府在這件事上扮演的角色，你們如何去稽查業者有沒有落實HACCP？"],["石部長崇良：這個主要是在地方的查廠，就是HACCP，都會定期去稽查，這個部分是由地方在執行……"],["邱委員慧洳：你們應該是督導啦！你們是頒布一個計畫、頒布一個指引，你們是出頭腦，他們是出手腳去做執行。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["邱委員慧洳：我現在問一件事，我們查到113年有一個專案稽查，總共查了58家，事實上，我們去查主計總處統計資料發現全臺灣有263家動植物油脂製造業，你們113年只查了58家，所以比例大概是四分之一或五分之一，現在稽查很重要，為什麼？因為就是去查所謂業者有沒有落實HACCP制度。現在問題出來了，這個專案只查了58家，母群體大概有263家，請問選案的標準是什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：我們用風險，如果大型的、影響大的，我們查，過去有違規的也要加強；上次沒過，下次我們一定再查他。所以是在風險的基礎上，希望能夠達到這樣的效果。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以風險基礎，是以過去有違規的為優先列入？"],["姜署長至剛：對，我們每一年都會針對他過去的歷史經驗，來確立今年要抽的，而不是挑著來抽。"],["邱委員慧洳：了解，58對比263，有沒有可能普查？因為這個食安問題如果這麼嚴重……"],["姜署長至剛：我想這個問題這麼重要，我們今年度就全面來啟動。"],["邱委員慧洳：好，會普查。我現在問一個問題，我記得這個專案稽查，如果我沒記錯，好像是從107年或106年開始實施的，所以到現在應該已經實施十多年了，請問一下有沒有中聯專案稽查的結果？過去十年或者是過去五年，中聯有沒有善盡HACCP的資料，有嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我們有查，確實的資料，容我們後面再補給您。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以有嘛？"],["姜署長至剛：對。"],["邱委員慧洳：因為我有去看你們的發表，就是食藥署發表的學術論文，你們在過去四年有去做稽查，然後稽查有做出一個學術報告，總共稽查295件，合格的是293件；不合格的是兩件而已，然後你們自己下的結論是，可見食用油脂製造業者在食品品質上有相當自主管理的水準。我們覺得這個結論對照今天發生的事情，顯得格外的諷刺，所以我覺得paperwork做得很漂亮，我們也不是全面的要抹煞，只是希望從這個案件當中，能夠讓你們再去看普查的結果是否客觀，因為我相信你們看到這樣的結果也比較容易掉以輕心，如果今天普查出來的結果，例如現在是293對比2，如果今天是50比50這樣的數字，也許你們會比較有危機感，它這樣看起來不知道是不是相對沒有危機感，而失去警戒的態度，這是我擔心的，所以也期許未來你們能夠再注意一下這一點。","接著，因為我相信食用到這些劣質油的受害者，其實是存在的，我想不管是十年前的頂新也好，或者是統一、強冠的油，其實受害者非常地多，一些消保團體、行政院消保處，也有協同這些受害的消費者來求償，現在食品安全管理法第五十六條之一有一個食安基金，針對這種團體訴訟，其實有律師費的補助跟訴訟費用的補助。請問這個案件可不可以比照辦理？"],["石部長崇良：這個案件是在食安基金補助的適用條件範圍內。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以可以嘛？"],["石部長崇良：可以協助。"],["邱委員慧洳：所以你們未來也會展現積極的態度，就是商請行政院消保處來協助消費者求償這個案件。"],["石部長崇良：對，如果是依法條的話，是由地方政府，如果有團體訴訟的時候是由地方政府……"],["邱委員慧洳：我知道，但是應該是你們跟行政院消保處還有消保團體，中間應該有一些連結性跟督導性？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["邱委員慧洳：我們只是想跟你們確認，中央主管機關在協助的，也許不是第一線的角色，但是後面的監督角色、push角色應該要呈現出來嘛？"],["石部長崇良：會！"],["邱委員慧洳：因為這其實有前例、有非常多前例。"],["石部長崇良：有。"],["邱委員慧洳：食藥署都有介入、行政院消保處有介入，最後都是成功的案例。最後，請部長跟衛福部可不可以一個月給我們以下書面資料：第一個問題，剛剛其實已經得到一個答案了，就是43公噸有掌握，其他應該都是流向不明的，但是還是希望你們能夠再盡一點力，看能不能再追出一些劣質油，因為你把它追出來，至少在市面上流竄的會相對的變少，但是我還是希望你們能夠再去思考，到底應回收量多少？已使用量多少？有辦法推估已使用量嗎？沒辦法嘛，聽起來流向不明已經沒辦法了。好，也希望你們能夠再做一些說明，如果有一些新的數字再做更新，自來油的原因剛剛也請你們再給我們書面資料，還有檢驗不一的原因，部長你也都有答應我，20%的利潤基礎、專案稽核的選案標準是什麼、過去五年稽核中聯專案稽查的項目跟結果，剛剛食藥署署長也表示會提供，團體訴訟表示依法會補助，在協助消費者求償這個過程當中，也會跟行政院消保處有比較積極的角色出現，這些都沒問題吧？"],["石部長崇良：可以。"],["邱委員慧洳：一個月之後給我們回復資料？"],["石部長崇良：好，可以，謝謝。"],["邱委員慧洳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱慧洳委員質詢。","請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}