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吸入包含到這個伊東彌子的案例那目前我們沒有掌握到目前沒有查獲到外島有官兵吸入的狀況所以我對於委員所說的透過小三通的方式來"},{"start":172.467,"end":192.024,"text":"進入營區的這個目前沒有這樣的案例那如果委員有詳細的資料我們可以做了解接下來就是在接下來的時候我們就把相關的情節再跟你們講過去有這樣的事情發生那接下來這個問題就是在這邊就是這是一個為什麼他聽到了沒有講沒有在第一時間來跟長官講"},{"start":193.886,"end":210.759,"text":"其實在軍中當然不只是在軍中其實在這種團體的活動或者是在一個團體要一起留宿的這種狀況之下通常都不會主動的來去上報因為要在念他的同袍關係又擔心有可能會報復所以"},{"start":213.141,"end":231.215,"text":"總是會有想要大事化小 小事化無這個狀況是都可以理解但是這個東西它如果是結構性的問題就是我們剛剛上次我們提到說要這個克責但是我們克責的機制紀錄也不是無限上綱也就是說哪些是偶發的危機偶發的危機我怎麼"},{"start":232.256,"end":248.544,"text":"我們就是有一個 這就是小社會嘛這個社會裡面就是會有一些吸毒的 煙毒犯 暴力犯他還是要服義務役嘛 他還是會進來軍隊嘛那這些人我們總不能說因為他進來 他過去的習慣帶到軍中我就要去懲治他的管理階層的這些軍官這會導致這個管理階層過度頻繁的來去換將或者換主官 對"},{"start":257.048,"end":277.804,"text":"但如果是單位性的結構犯罪那就不一樣囉那就表示你的管理狀況是不對的所以我們要把它分清楚才不會無限度的究責讓這些反而想要負責任的人不敢去做所以單位結構性犯罪的督導界線就是要講得很清楚很明瞭就是說如果你是排長你的班長"},{"start":278.965,"end":302.147,"text":"跑去這個查到這個部分的這些士兵那有這個起始的狀況甚至還有販賣的狀況那不但沒收之後還沒收之後還去威脅說如果不要上報那你必須要給我多少錢那這個就有點像是管理上面的問題那他上面一層可能就要去做一些這個管理"},{"start":302.95,"end":322.942,"text":"那當然類似這樣的狀況其實軍中很多啦我們最近也聽到一些我們因為這跟軍中之外那跟警察局內政部有關聯我們有問一些內政部相關的這些長官他們提到的也是說有些時候是軍中他們一開始總是不希望有事情發生還是會想要壓著"},{"start":323.442,"end":348.924,"text":"到最後不得已還是會尋求警方的協助所以類似這樣的狀況我們還是要克服怎麼樣讓他們能夠勇於來去反應特別是有建制型的狀況就是班長 班兵 醫務兵然後大家向上叫 向上賊的這個狀況有沒有人敢出來講這個就是我們接下來要想的誘因是什麼這個部分是不是可以請簡單回應一下接下來怎麼做會比較好"},{"start":350.353,"end":363.251,"text":"包委員就我的了解我們現在在國軍的文化上面我們尤其是毒品這件事情我應該可以跟委員比較自信的說我們"},{"start":365.165,"end":365.785,"text":"好 謝謝 就是"},{"start":393.366,"end":410.1,"text":"這是好的開始有年級以上不會那我們就把它往到排級以上然後最後再到班級以上那這樣子慢慢的我們就可以把它盡量的不可能毒品它是永遠沒有辦法它是一個永遠不會間斷的戰爭就是總是會有人會繼續毒我們要做的是把它降低到一定的水準也就是說"},{"start":411.541,"end":427.517,"text":"還是要數據就是你在數據上面你要去很明顯的知道說這個是往下降的還是怎麼樣犯罪也是一樣嘛這個年功犯罪學大家也都清楚的就是沒有辦法把一個東西完全的把它消除掉但是我們盡量把它降低那接下來我們講到這一個志願"},{"start":428.678,"end":445.732,"text":"部隊的邊線筆也好大概就是我們的這個少子化的衝擊我簡單還是要說一下我們最近有看到有很多在反應就是說我們的這個冰原制度邊線筆有些是說在往上增有些是說維持但是"},{"start":446.98,"end":463.619,"text":"我還是要思考一下如果說我們招募到的兵員為了要擴大兵員但是招募到不適合的甚至招募到會讓管理階層更頭痛的那他就不是嫁衣那每多一個兵員他其實是讓整個部隊連隊他的"},{"start":465.962,"end":492.203,"text":"作戰能力甚至是管理上面的時間反而負擔更多想請教一下部長你怎麼看這樣的狀況怎麼去取捨我們要與其多增100個兵但那100個兵裡面有更多讓他們頭痛來去更多無法去更難管教的甚至是因為他的這個能力的問題或者是其他的這些過去的這些"},{"start":493.936,"end":519.366,"text":"人生遇到的一些機遇導致所以他在軍中更難管教那這樣的話怎麼去權衡包委員我是人事司司長跟你說明一下我們目前都質量並重那對於有問題的士兵我們在招進來之後經過考核之後我們就會有問題的士兵我們就辦理那個離退場的機制這是各級部隊都會都有這個規範相關的做法這是沒有問題的"},{"start":520.652,"end":548.192,"text":"OK就進來之後我們再去規劃離退場就等於是說我們招募之後然後因為這個人不適應我們再請他辭職這其實在一般的民間公司我之前過去在日商也好他們對於招募這件事情是非常非常用心的因為他們招募到一個錯的員工會給他們造成的管理上面的問題那是非常頭痛的我們記得就是說把自己把報價單把我們的底價然後寫信給對方的公司說這就是我們的底價結果發現啊不是"},{"start":549.172,"end":575.623,"text":"傳錯了他本來要傳給我們的科長結果傳到對方的公司去類似這樣子的問題就是要多僱用一個員工造成不僅公司沒有盈利甚至還是虧損非常大因為底價被對方支到意思就是說對公司來講企業來講招募一個錯的員工他的影響更大所以與其在招募進來之後我們再亡羊補老我還是認為啦您缺那不要"},{"start":576.991,"end":602.366,"text":"明確誤爛啊 這個還是要思考一下這個部分那再來我們快速的 洛乙部長要回應嗎 還是剛才已經我想招募的部分 應該我們會要求招募的人員他在招募的時候 確實就要注意這一段不好意思 我最近看到新聞上面有說要把智力測驗的下調 這個是真的還是假的這是假新聞沒有這是假新聞嗎"},{"start":604.366,"end":614.671,"text":"哇 你看這種假新聞這樣到處在網路上面蔓延確實是百分之百的假新聞沒有這個事情 沒有這個情勢國軍沒有要把"},{"start":615.981,"end":639.042,"text":"你看這個沒有下修的沒有下修的這個你看這個我們必須要接下來國防部可能要更加努力齁因為類似這樣子到處都是串啦臉書啦各種圖卡就一直在講這些東西那我們如果沒有在國會殿堂來去第一時間的話那就可能要國防部你們自己必要專區要盡快盡快去回覆我最近還聽到一些友人在跟我講說你看現在國軍都"},{"start":640.203,"end":668.029,"text":"這是不對的不要被這種假新聞可騙最後一個問題就是能力不足的部分跟操作員的無人機的操作員的部分最近看到說審計部有在決算報告有說到合格的操作人員的不足那特別是說他有指出前年委託中科院他開辦的無人機夜巡的訓練班符合這個參訓資格36人中那實際參訓取得那夜航資格僅6人那這只是一個案例"},{"start":668.849,"end":683.916,"text":"那重點是說包含這個進程型的無人性載具啦不管是多少人合齊的合格的操作人數低於這個以籌獲的無人載具的這個數目那不管是各級的你說FPE也好或者是比較高階型的也好"},{"start":684.716,"end":709.224,"text":"那我想請教一下這樣子的能力不足的問題它理論上不只是在台灣在全世界各地都一定會發生那以台灣對我們是有少子化的問題但是在台灣的這個整體的國民教育素質是比起其他國家以台灣已經是G20的這種經濟的這個能力以及教育水平都是在大專院校以上教育水準都是這個大專院校以上"},{"start":711.051,"end":726.943,"text":"為什麼烏克蘭他們在基輔的這個郵報裡面他們說他們的無人機操作員從後勤到整個實際上去用的大概是8萬人左右他們的無人機飛手大概是2.5萬人到4萬人左右"},{"start":727.881,"end":741.437,"text":"他們的就是針對就是類似我們的無人機指揮部的這些精銳的部隊就專職無人機的部隊他們到USF大概有1.5萬人左右為什麼他有這些人數那當然他是個大國中等國家他是個大國這個"},{"start":743.639,"end":761.537,"text":"領土非常廣大人口數但是其實他們的人口數昨天當然烏克蘭的這個國會議員也跟我們講他們人口數大概現在也只降到因為流離失所、戰亂、佔領等等的狀況大概只有2800多萬人也就是說他們的人口數大概跟我們已經是差不多為什麼還有這些人數?為什麼?"},{"start":764.107,"end":783.53,"text":"因為他們用心事的方式從民間上面來去取材也就是說除了義務役跟志願役之外他們有更多的人可以進入他們的drone line就是他們自己的設計的一個戰略性的一個作法大規模的來去在民間平常時期就他們現在當然是在戒嚴而且是戰爭時期"},{"start":784.511,"end":797.23,"text":"但是他們讓他們再不用受到軍中的這一種待遇但是可以拿到類似私人企業的薪資來去參與這些無人機的操作維修 維管 創新"},{"start":798.837,"end":814.627,"text":"我意思是說這些飛手我們台灣登陸在岸的這些民航局在民航局的這些無人機的飛手他就是一個很好的人才庫那我們不需要說他們還要去主動這些對國家有責任的對國家熱愛的"},{"start":815.888,"end":832.095,"text":"他們平時還去參加一些NGO拿自己付錢來去增進他們自己的技術他們希望說有一天如果國家需要他們的時候他們不是在軍中但他們也可以來扮演一些角色有點像是他們國土防衛隊的角色這部分部長你有沒有想過說怎麼樣可以把這些民間的能量"},{"start":832.455,"end":853.334,"text":"我們嘉義自己也有啊 嘉義自從民選行太遠去之後 自己有一些無人機的愛好者自己成立一些他們的協會 那他們自己不斷地在精進他們的技術他們說只要國家有需要的話 告知他們 他們隨時都願意去那可是他們必須要理解到這個狀況就是說 他們自己有自己的工作但只要國家有需要的時候 他們願意很快速地由民"},{"start":854.435,"end":855.235,"text":"後備是我們的"},{"start":872.788,"end":889.985,"text":"後續在碰到狀況的時候的一個來源所以如果這些人納入我們的後備邊管,按照現行的制度才有可能不然的話,如果要納入戰鬥部隊"},{"start":891.932,"end":907.082,"text":"就是說如果是作為戰鬥部隊使用的話,我想就是要納入後備邊關,其他的途徑如果他不是從事戰鬥的第一線,那唯一的方法就是按照全動法的相關的規定來進行一些"},{"start":908.102,"end":931.067,"text":"徵召的工作我想這個還是要區隔因為畢竟納入戰鬥的部隊它有涉及到相關我們既有的這些法律的框架戰鬥是戰鬥那當然這個國際上面有他們特別的國際法來去匡列戰鬥人員戰鬥人員受到的處遇就跟非戰鬥人員受到的處遇是不同的這是第一點"},{"start":931.767,"end":959.176,"text":"那第二點我們剛剛提到的這些人他們同時有維修協助的這些功能在你只要把它納入這第三點他們用自己的機型他們不知道不熟悉現在國防部你們在訓練的機型嘛那這樣的名利不是很可惜嗎如果他們有這樣對不管是對電工電鍍電這些基本的電機還有這樣子的程式軟體那這些編碼有基礎的能力那如果他們能夠結合我們自己現有的裝備"},{"start":960.376,"end":978.702,"text":"不要講到比較高端的專門就從第一型FV的無人機那是不是到時候他們的協助在緊急狀況的協助可能會更大如果說這些大家是不是可以想一下這個還是要區分如果他是有直接從事戰鬥資源的工作還是屬於戰鬥的一環因為這個根據國際法相關的規範要來研討"},{"start":986.57,"end":1004.457,"text":"也就是說它是屬於這個,我們一般講說你可以納入民防體系,或者是你可以納入這些社區自救的體系,這是一件事情那如果從事戰鬥的跟從事戰鬥資源,這個都還是屬於戰鬥人員"},{"start":1008.958,"end":1030.776,"text":"戰鬥資源所以包含這一個比如說你我們現在講後勤的維修這些都是屬於戰鬥資源如果他維修的都是屬於軍用的會從事戰鬥用的武器會成為合法的目標他還是會被界定為戰鬥人員還是會被稱為合法的目標對OK好那這個可能要再想一下"},{"start":1032.847,"end":1051.817,"text":"我想就像俄羅斯一樣他們很大時間點他們是直接忽略戰爭相關的法條那是都從他們轟炸的各種民間設施的狀況以及無差別的轟炸那這是很明顯的所以在緊急時期我們要怎麼樣確保"},{"start":1054.127,"end":1072.827,"text":"能夠持續能夠維管 維修那在既有的編制之外還有沒有什麼其他的方式能夠擴大我們的可能性可能還是我想這些部分可能不以公開來說明大家想一下好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:02.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:04.113000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:04.113000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:15.757000+08:00","text":"請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:15.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:16.757000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:16.757000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:17.757000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:15.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:22:36.524000+08:00","text":"部長，前幾天外交及國防委員會一樣有提到毒品網路蔓延的議題，我想要接續講下去，因為上次只有憲指部有人來，但我們覺得這是一個結構性的問題，其實已經不僅僅是在軍中，我想在社會上也都有這樣的狀況。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:22:36.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:16.239000+08:00","text":"不過我還是要提醒一下外島的狀況，我們辦公室的助理幾年前在馬祖服軍事訓練役的時候，他們的連隊上面其實有一些鄰兵到要退伍前才到馬祖部隊報到，一問之下是因為他自己本來在成功嶺新訓的時候就已經被查到用藥，那時候我的助理就很好奇的問那個鄰兵：「為什麼你明明吸毒，可是又要跑去外島？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:16.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:21.604000+08:00","text":"你是因為愛國、想要彌補的心態，還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:21.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:29.893000+08:00","text":"」結果他說：「沒有啦，因為到了馬祖，可以透過小三通，更方便、更快速地得到毒品貨源，就可以繼續在軍中來發展組織。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:33.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:37.923000+08:00","text":"」我想這個是他們在基層遇到的真實故事，所以我們很擔心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:39.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:48.909000+08:00","text":"中國我們不用特別去猜測，但是原則上任何能夠讓我國國軍衰弱的手段，我相信他們都會努力地去嘗試、去做。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:50.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:23:59.563000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，類似這種用小三通去建立毒品的供應鏈，你有沒有聽過類似的狀況？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:23:59.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:24:03.108000+08:00","text":"有沒有一些作為來反制？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-08T12:24:06.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:24:33.849000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，目前我們營區在毒品防制方面是零容忍，除了收假入營的檢查，也包含驗尿、緝毒犬的查驗，我們是不分任何的階級、職務，我也老實跟委員說明，連我是陸軍司令部參謀長，我在上個月都還接受驗尿，我們的幕僚也都是一樣。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-08T12:24:34.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:24:56.049000+08:00","text":"目前我們在營區自行查驗，包含依托咪酯，我們沒有查獲到外島官兵有吸入的狀況，所以委員所說的，透過小三通的方式讓違禁品進入營區的案例，目前是沒有。好。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-08T12:24:57.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:01.073000+08:00","text":"如果委員有詳細的資料，我們可以了解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:03.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:07.399000+08:00","text":"沒關係，我們私下再把相關的情資跟你們講，就是過去有這樣的事情發生。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:08.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:14.024000+08:00","text":"接下來，問題就是在這邊，為什麼他聽到了沒有在第一時間跟長官講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:15.886000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:25:52.475000+08:00","text":"其實當然也不只是在軍中，在這種團體的活動，或者是一個團體要一起留宿的狀況之下，通常都不會主動上報，因為念在他的同袍關係，又擔心有可能會被報復，所以總是會想要大事化小、小事化無，這個狀況都是可以理解的，但是這個東西如果是結構性的問題，上次我們提到說要課責，但是我們課責的機制、制度也不是無限上綱，也就是說哪些是偶發的危機？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:25:55.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:03.481000+08:00","text":"這就是小社會嘛，社會裡面就是會有一些吸毒的菸毒犯、暴力犯，他還是要服義務役、還是會進來軍隊。","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:04.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:10.344000+08:00","text":"我們總不能因為他進來，將過去的習慣帶到軍中，我就要去懲治管理階層的軍官，這會導致管理階層過度頻繁地換將或更換主管。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:19.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:24.532000+08:00","text":"但如果是單位性的結構犯罪就不一樣了，那就表示管理狀況是不對的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:25.033000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:31.498000+08:00","text":"所以我們要把它分清楚，才不會無限度究責，讓想要負責任的人反而不敢去做。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:33.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:26:36.422000+08:00","text":"因此，單位結構性犯罪的督導界限要講得很清楚、很明瞭。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:26:36.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:04.127000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果你是排長，你的班長查到士兵有吸食甚至販賣的狀況，沒收之後，還去威脅說如果不要上報就必須給多少錢，這就屬於管理上面的問題，上面一層可能就要去做管理。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:06.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:27.824000+08:00","text":"類似的狀況在軍中很多，我們最近也聽到一些，因為這跟軍中之外的警察局、內政部有關聯，我們有問一些內政部相關的官員，他們提到說，有些時候是軍中一開始不希望有事情發生，會想要壓著，到最後不得已還是會尋求警方的協助。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:28.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:42.116000+08:00","text":"所以類似這樣的狀況，我們還是要克服，怎麼樣讓他們能夠勇於反映，特別是有建制型的狀況，就是班長、班兵、義務兵大家上下交相賊的狀況。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:42.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:45.199000+08:00","text":"有沒有人敢出來講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:45.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:48.121000+08:00","text":"這就是我們接下來要想的誘因是什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:48.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:27:50.904000+08:00","text":"這個部分是不是可以簡單回應一下，接下來怎麼做會比較好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-08T12:27:52.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:05.251000+08:00","text":"報告委員，就我的了解，現在在國軍的文化上面，尤其是毒品這件事情，我應該可以跟委員比較自信地說，我們不會有知道底下有人在持用或是交易，到排級、連級以上的管理幹部知情不報還願意包庇的情形。","quality":0.488},{"speaker":"陳參謀長建義","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:05.251000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:07.685000+08:00","text":"至於委員說有沒有更低階的，目前只要有，我們基本上透過各個查察的方式都有自行查獲，到了連級及以上是沒有人會去包庇的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:07.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:35.927000+08:00","text":"謝謝，這是好的開始。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:36.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:49.278000+08:00","text":"連級以上不會，那我們就把它推動到排級以上，最後再到班級以上，這樣子慢慢地，我們就可以儘量……毒品是永遠沒有辦法、它是一個永遠不會間斷的戰爭，總是會有人去吸毒。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:49.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:59.607000+08:00","text":"我們要做的是把它降低到一定的水準，說還是要看數據，數據上面要很明顯地知道它是往下降的，或者是怎麼樣。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:59.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:06.814000+08:00","text":"犯罪也是一樣，念過犯罪學大家也都清楚，沒有辦法把一個東西完全消除掉，但是我們儘量把它降低。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:07.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:14.321000+08:00","text":"接下來我們講到志願部隊的編現比受到少子化的衝擊。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:14.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:53.026000+08:00","text":"我簡單說一下，我們最近有看到很多在反映我們的兵源制度編現比有些是說在往上增，有些是說維持，但是我們還是要思考一下，如果我們招募為了要擴大兵源而招募到不適合的，甚至招募到會讓管理階層更頭痛的，那他就不是加一的概念，每多一個兵源，他其實是讓整個部隊、連隊的作戰能力，甚至是管理上面的時間反而負擔更多。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:53.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:56.089000+08:00","text":"想請教一下部長，你怎麼看這樣的狀況？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:56.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:57.370000+08:00","text":"怎麼去取捨？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:57.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:20.298000+08:00","text":"我們與其多增100個兵，但那100個兵裡面有更多讓他們頭痛、更難管教的，甚至因為他能力的問題或者是在過去人生遇到的一些機遇，導致他在軍中更難管教，這要怎麼去權衡？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"王次長智輝","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:23.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:25.260000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我是人次室次長，跟你說明一下。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"王次長智輝","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:25.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:41.346000+08:00","text":"我們目前都質量並重，對於有問題的士兵，在招進來經過考核之後，我們會辦理離退場機制，各級部隊都會有這樣的規範及相關做法，這是沒有問題的。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:43.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:49.857000+08:00","text":"進來之後再去規劃離退場，就等於是招募之後，因為這個人不適任再請他辭職。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:49.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:03.467000+08:00","text":"其實在一般的民間公司，我過去在日商，他們對於招募這件事情是非常非常用心的，因為他們知道招募到一個錯的員工，會給他們造成管理上面的問題，那是非常頭痛的。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:04.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:22.997000+08:00","text":"例如，如果把自己的報價單寫信給對方的公司說這就是我們的底價，結果發現傳錯了，本來要傳給我們的科長，結果傳到對方的公司去，類似這樣的問題，只要多僱用一個員工，不僅公司沒有盈利，甚至還虧損非常大，因為底價被對方知道。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:23.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:28.919000+08:00","text":"意思就是，對公司、企業來講，招募一個錯的員工影響更大。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:29.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:40.992000+08:00","text":"所以與其招募進來之後再亡羊補牢，我還是認為寧缺勿濫，這還是要思考一下。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:42.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:45.675000+08:00","text":"再來我們快速地……部長要回應嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:45.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:47.416000+08:00","text":"還是剛才已經……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:47.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:55.300000+08:00","text":"我想招募的部分，應該我們會要求在招募的時候，確實就要注意這一段。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:56.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:01.744000+08:00","text":"不好意思，我最近看到新聞上面有說要把智力測驗下調，這個是真的還是假的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:02.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:03.665000+08:00","text":"這是假新聞？沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:04.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:04.366000+08:00","text":"這是假新聞嘛！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:06.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:11.168000+08:00","text":"哇，你看這種假新聞到處在網路上面蔓延。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:11.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:12.829000+08:00","text":"確實是百分之百的假新聞？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:12.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:15.950000+08:00","text":"沒有這件事情、沒有這個情勢？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:15.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:18.061000+08:00","text":"國軍沒有要把……你看……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:18.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:19.122000+08:00","text":"沒有要下修。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:20.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:30.532000+08:00","text":"你看，接下來國防部可能要更加努力，因為Threads、臉書到處都是，各種圖卡一直在講這些東西。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:31.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:38.179000+08:00","text":"我們如果沒有在國會殿堂第一時間澄清的話，可能就要請國防部你們自己的闢謠專區儘快去回復。","quality":0.78},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:38.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:45.444000+08:00","text":"我最近還聽到有人在跟我講，你看現在國軍都……這是不對的，不要被這種假新聞騙。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:45.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:50.525000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題是人力不足跟無人機操作員的部分。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:51.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:25.896000+08:00","text":"最近看到審計部在決算報告有說到合格操作人員不足，特別是他有指出，前年委託中科院開辦的無人機夜巡訓練班，符合參訓資格36人中，實際參訓取得夜航資格的僅有6人，這只是一個案例，重點是包含近程型的無人機載具，合格的操作人數低於已籌獲的無人載具數目，不管是各級的FPV也好，或者是比較高階型的也好。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:26.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:33.818000+08:00","text":"我想請教一下，人力不足的問題，它理論上不只是在臺灣，在全世界各地都一定會發生。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:34.759000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:51.204000+08:00","text":"以臺灣而言，我們有少子化的問題，但是臺灣整體國民教育素質，比起其他國家，臺灣已經具G20經濟能力，且教育水準都在大專院校以上。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:53.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:08.923000+08:00","text":"為什麼烏克蘭在基輔郵報裡面說他們的無人機操作員從後勤到整個實際上去用的，大概是8萬人左右，他們的無人機飛手大概是2.5萬人到4萬人左右？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:09.881000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:18.351000+08:00","text":"他們針對類似我們的無人機指揮部的精銳部隊，也就是專職無人機的部隊（USF）大概有1.5萬人左右。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:19.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:20.493000+08:00","text":"為什麼他們有這些人數？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:20.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:38.812000+08:00","text":"當然他是個大國、中等國家，領土非常廣大，其實他們的人口數，昨天烏克蘭的國會議員也跟我們講，他們人口數因為流離失所、戰亂、占領等等的狀況，現在也只降到大概2,800多萬人。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:39.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:43.517000+08:00","text":"也就是說，他們的人口數跟我們已經差不多了，為什麼還有這些人數？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:46.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:48.810000+08:00","text":"因為他們用新式的方式，從民間上面來去取材。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:49.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:19.209000+08:00","text":"也就是說，除了義務役跟志願役之外，他們有更多的人可以進入他們的Drone Line，就是他們自己設計的一個戰略性做法，大規模在平常時期於民間……他們現在當然是在戒嚴而且是戰爭時期，但是他們讓他們不用受到軍中的待遇，卻可以拿到類似私人企業的薪資，去參與這些無人機的操作、維修、維管、創新。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:20.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:31.504000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，我們臺灣登錄在案的民航局無人機飛手，它就是一個很好的人才庫。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:31.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:49.673000+08:00","text":"我們不希望他們還要主動……這些對國家有責任、對國家熱愛的人，平時還去參加一些NGO，自己付錢來增進他們自己的技術，他們希望說有一天如果國家需要他們的時候，他們就算不是在軍中，但也可以來扮演一些角色，有點類似他們國土防衛隊的角色。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:50.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:03.303000+08:00","text":"這個部分，部長你有沒有想過怎麼樣可以把這些民間的能量……我們嘉義自己也有，嘉義民雄航太園區有一些無人機的愛好者，他們自己成立一些他們的協會，他們自己不斷地在精進他們的技術。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:03.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:06.906000+08:00","text":"他們說，只要國家有需要的話，告知他們，他們隨時都願意去。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:07.627000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:15.314000+08:00","text":"可是他們的狀況是，他們有自己的工作，但只要國家有需要的時候，他們願意很快速地由民轉到可以作為戰鬥人員，他們就是準戰鬥人員，不是真實在編制體系下的人員。","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:15.314000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:16.435000+08:00","text":"針對這樣的可能性，國防部及部長，你們有什麼樣的看法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:16.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:48.041000+08:00","text":"我想後備是我們後續在碰到狀況時的一個來源，所以如果這些人納入我們的後備編管，按照現行的制度才有可能。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:54.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:11.322000+08:00","text":"如果是作為戰鬥部隊之用的話，我想就是要納入後備編管，至於其他的途徑，如果他不是從事戰鬥的第一線，唯一的方法就是按照全動法的相關規定來進行一些徵召的工作。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:12.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:23.665000+08:00","text":"我想這個還是要區隔，因為畢竟納入戰鬥的部隊，它有涉及到我們相關既有的這些法律框架……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:24.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:33.067000+08:00","text":"戰鬥是戰鬥，當然國際上面有他們特別的國際法來匡列戰鬥人員，戰鬥人員受到的處遇跟非戰鬥人員受到處遇是不同的，這是第一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:33.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:39.629000+08:00","text":"第二點，我們剛才提到的這些人，他們同時有維修及協助的這些功能在，你們怎麼把他們納入？","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:40.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:48.592000+08:00","text":"第三點，他們用自己的機型，他們不知道且不熟悉現在國防部在訓練的機型，這樣的民力不是很可惜嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:48.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:11.079000+08:00","text":"他們不管是對電工、電鍍等這些基本電機專業，還有有程式軟體編碼等基礎能力，如果他們能夠結合我們自己現有的裝備，不要講說比較高端的裝備，就從第一型的FPV無人機，是不是到時候他們在緊急狀況下的協助可能會更大？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:12.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:13.940000+08:00","text":"所以這些大家是不是可以想一下？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:14.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:41.055000+08:00","text":"這個還是要區分，如果他是有直接從事戰鬥資源的工作，還是屬於戰鬥的一環，根據國際法相關規範要來研討，也就是他是屬於我們一般講的可以納入民防體系，或者可以納入這些社區自救的體系，這是一件事情。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:42.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:46.457000+08:00","text":"如果從事戰鬥跟從事戰鬥資源，這個都還是屬於戰鬥人員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:50.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:53.040000+08:00","text":"戰鬥資源，所以包含這一個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:53.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:03.168000+08:00","text":"比如我們現在講後勤的維修，這些都是屬於戰鬥資源，如果他維修都是屬於軍用的、會從事戰鬥用的武器，包括……","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:04.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:06.491000+08:00","text":"他們會成為合法的目標。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:06.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:09.173000+08:00","text":"他還是會被界定為戰鬥人員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:09.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:10.654000+08:00","text":"還是會被稱為合法的……對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:10.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:12.756000+08:00","text":"OK，這個可能還要再想一下。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:14.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:30.676000+08:00","text":"我想就像俄羅斯一樣，他們很大時間是直接忽略戰爭相關的法條，從他們轟炸各種民間設施的狀況及無差別的轟炸，這是很明顯的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:30.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:39.070000+08:00","text":"所以在緊急時期，我們要怎麼樣確保能夠持續維管、維修？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:41.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:46.098000+08:00","text":"在既有編制之外，還有沒有什麼其他方式能夠擴大我們的可能性？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:47.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:47.759000+08:00","text":"可能還是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:48.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:53.425000+08:00","text":"我想這些部分可能不宜公開來說明。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:54.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:54.526000+08:00","text":"大家想一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:54.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:54.827000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:55.327000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:01.327000+08:00","text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:01.627000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:04.484143+08:00","text":"請葉元之委員上臺質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":805,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時22分）請部長。"],["主席：請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，前幾天外交及國防委員會一樣有提到毒品網路蔓延的議題，我想要接續講下去，因為上次只有憲指部有人來，但我們覺得這是一個結構性的問題，其實已經不僅僅是在軍中，我想在社會上也都有這樣的狀況。","不過我還是要提醒一下外島的狀況，我們辦公室的助理幾年前在馬祖服軍事訓練役的時候，他們的連隊上面其實有一些鄰兵到要退伍前才到馬祖部隊報到，一問之下是因為他自己本來在成功嶺新訓的時候就已經被查到用藥，那時候我的助理就很好奇的問那個鄰兵：「為什麼你明明吸毒，可是又要跑去外島？你是因為愛國、想要彌補的心態，還是怎麼樣？」結果他說：「沒有啦，因為到了馬祖，可以透過小三通，更方便、更快速地得到毒品貨源，就可以繼續在軍中來發展組織。」我想這個是他們在基層遇到的真實故事，所以我們很擔心。中國我們不用特別去猜測，但是原則上任何能夠讓我國國軍衰弱的手段，我相信他們都會努力地去嘗試、去做。我想請教一下，類似這種用小三通去建立毒品的供應鏈，你有沒有聽過類似的狀況？有沒有一些作為來反制？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，目前我們營區在毒品防制方面是零容忍，除了收假入營的檢查，也包含驗尿、緝毒犬的查驗，我們是不分任何的階級、職務，我也老實跟委員說明，連我是陸軍司令部參謀長，我在上個月都還接受驗尿，我們的幕僚也都是一樣。目前我們在營區自行查驗，包含依托咪酯，我們沒有查獲到外島官兵有吸入的狀況，所以委員所說的，透過小三通的方式讓違禁品進入營區的案例，目前是沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。"],["陳參謀長建義：如果委員有詳細的資料，我們可以了解。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒關係，我們私下再把相關的情資跟你們講，就是過去有這樣的事情發生。接下來，問題就是在這邊，為什麼他聽到了沒有在第一時間跟長官講？其實當然也不只是在軍中，在這種團體的活動，或者是一個團體要一起留宿的狀況之下，通常都不會主動上報，因為念在他的同袍關係，又擔心有可能會被報復，所以總是會想要大事化小、小事化無，這個狀況都是可以理解的，但是這個東西如果是結構性的問題，上次我們提到說要課責，但是我們課責的機制、制度也不是無限上綱，也就是說哪些是偶發的危機？這就是小社會嘛，社會裡面就是會有一些吸毒的菸毒犯、暴力犯，他還是要服義務役、還是會進來軍隊。我們總不能因為他進來，將過去的習慣帶到軍中，我就要去懲治管理階層的軍官，這會導致管理階層過度頻繁地換將或更換主管。但如果是單位性的結構犯罪就不一樣了，那就表示管理狀況是不對的。所以我們要把它分清楚，才不會無限度究責，讓想要負責任的人反而不敢去做。","因此，單位結構性犯罪的督導界限要講得很清楚、很明瞭。也就是說，如果你是排長，你的班長查到士兵有吸食甚至販賣的狀況，沒收之後，還去威脅說如果不要上報就必須給多少錢，這就屬於管理上面的問題，上面一層可能就要去做管理。類似的狀況在軍中很多，我們最近也聽到一些，因為這跟軍中之外的警察局、內政部有關聯，我們有問一些內政部相關的官員，他們提到說，有些時候是軍中一開始不希望有事情發生，會想要壓著，到最後不得已還是會尋求警方的協助。所以類似這樣的狀況，我們還是要克服，怎麼樣讓他們能夠勇於反映，特別是有建制型的狀況，就是班長、班兵、義務兵大家上下交相賊的狀況。有沒有人敢出來講？這就是我們接下來要想的誘因是什麼。這個部分是不是可以簡單回應一下，接下來怎麼做會比較好？"],["陳參謀長建義：報告委員，就我的了解，現在在國軍的文化上面，尤其是毒品這件事情，我應該可以跟委員比較自信地說，我們不會有知道底下有人在持用或是交易，到排級、連級以上的管理幹部知情不報還願意包庇的情形。至於委員說有沒有更低階的，目前只要有，我們基本上透過各個查察的方式都有自行查獲，到了連級及以上是沒有人會去包庇的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝，這是好的開始。連級以上不會，那我們就把它推動到排級以上，最後再到班級以上，這樣子慢慢地，我們就可以儘量……毒品是永遠沒有辦法、它是一個永遠不會間斷的戰爭，總是會有人去吸毒。我們要做的是把它降低到一定的水準，說還是要看數據，數據上面要很明顯地知道它是往下降的，或者是怎麼樣。犯罪也是一樣，念過犯罪學大家也都清楚，沒有辦法把一個東西完全消除掉，但是我們儘量把它降低。","接下來我們講到志願部隊的編現比受到少子化的衝擊。我簡單說一下，我們最近有看到很多在反映我們的兵源制度編現比有些是說在往上增，有些是說維持，但是我們還是要思考一下，如果我們招募為了要擴大兵源而招募到不適合的，甚至招募到會讓管理階層更頭痛的，那他就不是加一的概念，每多一個兵源，他其實是讓整個部隊、連隊的作戰能力，甚至是管理上面的時間反而負擔更多。想請教一下部長，你怎麼看這樣的狀況？怎麼去取捨？我們與其多增100個兵，但那100個兵裡面有更多讓他們頭痛、更難管教的，甚至因為他能力的問題或者是在過去人生遇到的一些機遇，導致他在軍中更難管教，這要怎麼去權衡？"],["王次長智輝：報告委員，我是人次室次長，跟你說明一下。我們目前都質量並重，對於有問題的士兵，在招進來經過考核之後，我們會辦理離退場機制，各級部隊都會有這樣的規範及相關做法，這是沒有問題的。"],["陳委員冠廷：進來之後再去規劃離退場，就等於是招募之後，因為這個人不適任再請他辭職。其實在一般的民間公司，我過去在日商，他們對於招募這件事情是非常非常用心的，因為他們知道招募到一個錯的員工，會給他們造成管理上面的問題，那是非常頭痛的。例如，如果把自己的報價單寫信給對方的公司說這就是我們的底價，結果發現傳錯了，本來要傳給我們的科長，結果傳到對方的公司去，類似這樣的問題，只要多僱用一個員工，不僅公司沒有盈利，甚至還虧損非常大，因為底價被對方知道。意思就是，對公司、企業來講，招募一個錯的員工影響更大。所以與其招募進來之後再亡羊補牢，我還是認為寧缺勿濫，這還是要思考一下。","再來我們快速地……部長要回應嗎？還是剛才已經……"],["顧部長立雄：我想招募的部分，應該我們會要求在招募的時候，確實就要注意這一段。"],["陳委員冠廷：不好意思，我最近看到新聞上面有說要把智力測驗下調，這個是真的還是假的？這是假新聞？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。"],["陳委員冠廷：這是假新聞嘛！哇，你看這種假新聞到處在網路上面蔓延。確實是百分之百的假新聞？沒有這件事情、沒有這個情勢？國軍沒有要把……你看……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有要下修。"],["陳委員冠廷：你看，接下來國防部可能要更加努力，因為Threads、臉書到處都是，各種圖卡一直在講這些東西。我們如果沒有在國會殿堂第一時間澄清的話，可能就要請國防部你們自己的闢謠專區儘快去回復。我最近還聽到有人在跟我講，你看現在國軍都……這是不對的，不要被這種假新聞騙。","最後一個問題是人力不足跟無人機操作員的部分。最近看到審計部在決算報告有說到合格操作人員不足，特別是他有指出，前年委託中科院開辦的無人機夜巡訓練班，符合參訓資格36人中，實際參訓取得夜航資格的僅有6人，這只是一個案例，重點是包含近程型的無人機載具，合格的操作人數低於已籌獲的無人載具數目，不管是各級的FPV也好，或者是比較高階型的也好。我想請教一下，人力不足的問題，它理論上不只是在臺灣，在全世界各地都一定會發生。以臺灣而言，我們有少子化的問題，但是臺灣整體國民教育素質，比起其他國家，臺灣已經具G20經濟能力，且教育水準都在大專院校以上。","為什麼烏克蘭在基輔郵報裡面說他們的無人機操作員從後勤到整個實際上去用的，大概是8萬人左右，他們的無人機飛手大概是2.5萬人到4萬人左右？他們針對類似我們的無人機指揮部的精銳部隊，也就是專職無人機的部隊（USF）大概有1.5萬人左右。為什麼他們有這些人數？當然他是個大國、中等國家，領土非常廣大，其實他們的人口數，昨天烏克蘭的國會議員也跟我們講，他們人口數因為流離失所、戰亂、占領等等的狀況，現在也只降到大概2,800多萬人。也就是說，他們的人口數跟我們已經差不多了，為什麼還有這些人數？因為他們用新式的方式，從民間上面來去取材。也就是說，除了義務役跟志願役之外，他們有更多的人可以進入他們的Drone Line，就是他們自己設計的一個戰略性做法，大規模在平常時期於民間……他們現在當然是在戒嚴而且是戰爭時期，但是他們讓他們不用受到軍中的待遇，卻可以拿到類似私人企業的薪資，去參與這些無人機的操作、維修、維管、創新。我的意思是，我們臺灣登錄在案的民航局無人機飛手，它就是一個很好的人才庫。我們不希望他們還要主動……這些對國家有責任、對國家熱愛的人，平時還去參加一些NGO，自己付錢來增進他們自己的技術，他們希望說有一天如果國家需要他們的時候，他們就算不是在軍中，但也可以來扮演一些角色，有點類似他們國土防衛隊的角色。這個部分，部長你有沒有想過怎麼樣可以把這些民間的能量……我們嘉義自己也有，嘉義民雄航太園區有一些無人機的愛好者，他們自己成立一些他們的協會，他們自己不斷地在精進他們的技術。他們說，只要國家有需要的話，告知他們，他們隨時都願意去。可是他們的狀況是，他們有自己的工作，但只要國家有需要的時候，他們願意很快速地由民轉到可以作為戰鬥人員，他們就是準戰鬥人員，不是真實在編制體系下的人員。針對這樣的可能性，國防部及部長，你們有什麼樣的看法？"],["顧部長立雄：我想後備是我們後續在碰到狀況時的一個來源，所以如果這些人納入我們的後備編管，按照現行的制度才有可能。如果是作為戰鬥部隊之用的話，我想就是要納入後備編管，至於其他的途徑，如果他不是從事戰鬥的第一線，唯一的方法就是按照全動法的相關規定來進行一些徵召的工作。我想這個還是要區隔，因為畢竟納入戰鬥的部隊，它有涉及到我們相關既有的這些法律框架……"],["陳委員冠廷：戰鬥是戰鬥，當然國際上面有他們特別的國際法來匡列戰鬥人員，戰鬥人員受到的處遇跟非戰鬥人員受到處遇是不同的，這是第一點。第二點，我們剛才提到的這些人，他們同時有維修及協助的這些功能在，你們怎麼把他們納入？第三點，他們用自己的機型，他們不知道且不熟悉現在國防部在訓練的機型，這樣的民力不是很可惜嗎？他們不管是對電工、電鍍等這些基本電機專業，還有有程式軟體編碼等基礎能力，如果他們能夠結合我們自己現有的裝備，不要講說比較高端的裝備，就從第一型的FPV無人機，是不是到時候他們在緊急狀況下的協助可能會更大？所以這些大家是不是可以想一下？"],["顧部長立雄：這個還是要區分，如果他是有直接從事戰鬥資源的工作，還是屬於戰鬥的一環，根據國際法相關規範要來研討，也就是他是屬於我們一般講的可以納入民防體系，或者可以納入這些社區自救的體系，這是一件事情。如果從事戰鬥跟從事戰鬥資源，這個都還是屬於戰鬥人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：戰鬥資源，所以包含這一個……"],["顧部長立雄：比如我們現在講後勤的維修，這些都是屬於戰鬥資源，如果他維修都是屬於軍用的、會從事戰鬥用的武器，包括……"],["陳委員冠廷：他們會成為合法的目標。"],["顧部長立雄：他還是會被界定為戰鬥人員。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是會被稱為合法的……"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，這個可能還要再想一下。我想就像俄羅斯一樣，他們很大時間是直接忽略戰爭相關的法條，從他們轟炸各種民間設施的狀況及無差別的轟炸，這是很明顯的。所以在緊急時期，我們要怎麼樣確保能夠持續維管、維修？在既有編制之外，還有沒有什麼其他方式能夠擴大我們的可能性？可能還是……"],["顧部長立雄：我想這些部分可能不宜公開來說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：大家想一下。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請葉元之委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-35-26","speakers":["馬文君","王義川","陳俊宇","羅美玲","陳永康","黃建賓","王定宇","王安祥","沈伯洋","徐巧芯","牛煦庭","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","楊瓊瓔","陳冠廷","葉元之","黃仁","林楚茵"],"page_start":165,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1155901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1155901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期外交及國防委員會第26次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告「少子化衝擊下國軍人力資源政策與未來因應規劃」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1155901_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}