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12:46:18","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.025343750000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.594718750000002,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.29909375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":20.09534375,"end":21.15846875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":21.37784375,"end":21.985343750000002,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":24.21284375,"end":24.297218750000003,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":24.297218750000003,"end":24.55034375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":24.55034375,"end":27.58784375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":33.34221875,"end":33.56159375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":33.56159375,"end":33.96659375,"speaker_score":0.837},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":33.96659375,"end":34.05096875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":34.05096875,"end":34.06784375,"speaker_score":0.837},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":35.41784375,"end":36.39659375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":37.00409375,"end":41.67846875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"余組長俊明","start":43.298468750000005,"end":43.80471875,"speaker_score":0.867},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"余組長俊明","start":44.445968750000006,"end":45.44159375,"speaker_score":0.867},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":46.673468750000005,"end":47.55096875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":47.88846875,"end":48.74909375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"余組長俊明","start":50.048468750000005,"end":51.735968750000005,"speaker_score":0.867},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":53.06909375,"end":54.165968750000005,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"余組長俊明","start":54.82409375,"end":55.78596875,"speaker_score":0.867},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":56.96721875,"end":57.55784375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":58.84034375,"end":59.51534375000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":62.31659375,"end":63.31221875000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":63.953468750000006,"end":64.81409375,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":64.96596875,"end":68.77971875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":71.10846875,"end":78.22971875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":78.63471875,"end":81.46971875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":82.09409375,"end":83.73096875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":84.87846875000001,"end":85.14846875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":85.31721875000001,"end":101.16284375000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":101.75346875000001,"end":104.11596875000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":108.41909375,"end":109.53284375000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":109.98846875000001,"end":121.14284375000001,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":121.58159375000001,"end":122.07096875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"邱委員鎮軍","start":122.67846875000001,"end":136.54971875,"speaker_score":0.809},{"s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我先請防疫署請防疫署防檢署 防檢署余組長"},{"start":35.421,"end":59.189,"text":"好,我請問一下,這個美國進口馬鈴薯是用新規定的DP什麼時候到台灣?呃...我原...我...你們都不知道啊?那你來幹嘛?我們今天就是...誰說我不能問這個啊?喔...沒有沒有我請教你什麼時候進來?呃...六月中"},{"start":63.973,"end":68.396,"text":"那我請教 昨天他的院長當時有到現場去視察嗎他不是說在公開場合說這個邊境檢查要逐科檢查馬鈴薯有沒有發芽結果到現在第一批一貨進來的最該被用放大鏡檢視的時候他人在現場嗎 他也沒去"},{"start":85.456,"end":103.617,"text":"包圍也沒有對啊 院長說的自己逐科結果DEP進來他連影都沒看到這個一方面證明自己就是騙子一方面也順便證明民進黨政府在面對重大食安跟貿易政策就是口號治國欺騙人民那我再請食安辦 您請回"},{"start":110.085,"end":136.175,"text":"主任 食安辦當初成立的目的就是在重大食安事件發生時第一時間統合各部會應變我請問中聯油紙本評比事件食用署6月30日就知道油品有問題了為什麼從6月30到7月7號陳時中政委才召開第一次跨部會會議我們"},{"start":138.496,"end":162.744,"text":"一直都有在做相關的這一個跨部會的所以你是各自啟動嗎還是不是就是我們我們實案辦事會請教一下7月7號會議決定的事情衛福部下架教育部查學校法務部偵辦這些事情是不是各部會在7月7日之前就已經在做了有一些事情是"},{"start":166.625,"end":190.064,"text":"應該怎麼講我們隨時保持也就是沒有聯絡嘛對不對那這個會議就是為了發揮你們應該有的這個統整協調功能還是只是因為這個我們盧昭偉今天排案了之後你們應付昭偉才排的這個臨時過場不會我們其實各部會都在做政委的會議是聽取各部會報告"},{"start":191.405,"end":215.4,"text":"你告訴我啦 食安辦成立十幾年了到現在才知道已知用火才知道重大食安事件要開跨部會議請問你這個辦公室到底是食安辦還是等通知辦我們都有在開跨部會的會議平常沒有事件發生我們也要開會也要常常去討論因為各部會你討論的結果都沒有結果嘛我們請這個江署長"},{"start":226.779,"end":235.872,"text":"按照你們對外釋放的資訊食藥署在6月30號知道中聯油脂的油品有問題那賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長是什麼時候知道的"},{"start":237.659,"end":255.337,"text":"我們針對我們6月30號知道7月1號知道我們其實在部裡面做統統處長也就是說這個中央政府我們各部會都是同一個時間知道的喔是這樣嗎我們就向上呈報希望讓部裡面知道知道之後7月3號賴總統去處長吃狗糧"},{"start":260.316,"end":276.96,"text":"7月4號郵品影響學校團善的業者然後嘉義部長鄭英耀去新竹輔選同場原本石部長要一起去的換經濟部長龔明星去幫一個候選人站台兩位在石岸事件都沒有他們都沒試錯嗎7月4號左邊台還跑去這個嘉義佈置看屠宰場回頭發言感謝我們參與委員爭取那7月6號"},{"start":290.184,"end":308.278,"text":"總統跟主任院長才對媒體發社群的這個天文表示對IU的這個關注啊這樣的補償安排在知道這個食安事件發生而且還在繼續延燒的情況下讓部會首長繼續輔選行程總統吃狗糧總院長看屠宰場這是在告訴國人人民的食安問題比豬狗都還不如嗎"},{"start":320.25,"end":331.856,"text":"我請你回去轉達下次重大食安這個發生的時候請總統把果糧放下請院長從屠宰場回來總統院院長昨天也說了他在7月3號"},{"start":334.707,"end":356.378,"text":"召集衛福部跟食藥署開會確認第二層下游廠商到底有多少家當時你們說一開始說224家後來說291家後來又變成257家到最後是360家也就是說左院長那天已經知道名單需要整理也知道這個事情會影響消費者知情權沒錯吧"},{"start":358.663,"end":384.34,"text":"跟委員做報告因為我們持續由地方各個衛生局協助匯報回來所以匯報時間我們用第一個時間把裡面的加速能夠讓持續累積之後確認下游的名單問題你們說沒有辦法第一時間掌握嗎那我請教一下現在的食品雲在重大食安事件裡面他到底能夠做到哪一步"},{"start":393.524,"end":417.831,"text":"跟委員說明因為這個我們當然食品雲會去追蹤他的這個要求要登錄的源頭啦那麼但是這個事情發生之後呢因為有他的第一層到第二層就是源頭的中聯到福壽福茂跟泰山那這些呢我們可以馬上就掌握但是接下來再往下的那麼這個就要透過這個地方"},{"start":418.171,"end":438.882,"text":"我看到你們基本資料跟資訊部分追溯資料我聽起來就是什麼都有但是什麼都不夠啦我問一個具體的情境假如今天下午兩點實驗室確認某個批號的擁有問題請問食藥署是不是可以在30分鐘之內直接從食品源系統裡面拉出一個清單"},{"start":440.884,"end":459.285,"text":"有哪些下游業者哪些產品使用這批油哪些超商通路上架哪些便當店飯糰沙拉醬需要立即下架30分鐘內可以做到嗎跟委員說明我們剛剛講的是這個製程過程的這個我們的這個我們的這個"},{"start":462.373,"end":485.103,"text":"這個私領雲是最製造的流程因為它製造裡面有原料端是哪裡然後到哪一個端所以我們到第一層剛剛我提到中聯然後到福壽、泰山、福茂這個我們可以清楚所以現在食藥署的現在只能用人工撈資料業者提供什麼就核對什麼這種的原始方式"},{"start":485.936,"end":492.627,"text":"我們會去比對也就是原始的方式嘛對不對業者的資料沒有跟政府的系統對接嗎有沒有對接"},{"start":494.193,"end":521.238,"text":"販售端沒有辦法就是他在往下了就比如說泰山哎呦賣給誰那個是販售行為如果是這樣這套食品園要做什麼過去幾輪啊花了十億的經費建一隻食品園遇到重大實在問題你哪有馬上掌握勒連即時追蹤與鎖定的能力都沒有啊我們立刻可以掌握到他往下的這一層你們說一直宣導啊宣導我們電子化管理啊AI內閣全部都是空的"},{"start":523.095,"end":535.684,"text":"你跟我講這個定位叫什麼叫做定位實驗可以蓋好幾間的這個校舍欸可以買很多這個檢驗儀器可以徵聘多少稽查人力結果你拿去做一個加強版的公山公濟系統而已啊"},{"start":538.483,"end":550.009,"text":"這個施平剛剛跟委員報告我們當然繼續來精進不過之前的這個設計主要是從製程的流程上的監測我請你問一下署長7月3日你出來開記者會那我請問你當天決定不公佈名單是卓用泰院長的才是嗎"},{"start":559.004,"end":568.754,"text":"這邊跟委員說明因為針對要怎麼去管理的我們是針對106年食品安全風險評估我只問7月3號當天是誰才是不公布的我想我們是按照過去"},{"start":576.861,"end":596.195,"text":"不要講按照原則再去做那天是誰拍板的嘛這個是我在整個會議裡面那院長有表示反對嗎院長有沒有要求你們先公布已經確認的名單有沒有我們先知道沒有嘛院長就是在場又是召集人沒有他的同意你當然不敢講啊對不對你們現在幫他洗白不是嗎"},{"start":602.383,"end":615.148,"text":"我再次的跟委員說明因為我們要處理的回去告訴院長不要推給專家也不要推給你們下屬他自己做的決定他自己扛好不好那我再請關務署今年第一批從巴西進口的黃肉什麼時候進口幾月幾日到港關務署副署長"},{"start":633.537,"end":639.324,"text":"委員好 您詢問的這個資料可不可以事後再提你們都備什麼準備 你今天來質詢幹什麼來備詢幹什麼"},{"start":642.89,"end":662.997,"text":"對不對今年有多少自由業者從巴西進口黃豆公司名稱跟進口數量是多少你們都沒掌握那這些現在出了事你們都還掌握不了那這些巴西的黃豆分別來自哪個出口商哪個國際糧商又有從哪個港口或是糧商出口的你們都沒有那中聯爲止4月4號生產這批問題員使用的巴西黃豆是哪一天進口的哪一艘船"},{"start":673.203,"end":691.95,"text":"哪一張報單哪一個出口商哪一個港口你們都掌握了嗎食藥署現在把問題可能之一的調查方向都指向這個巴西黃豆中聯這批黃豆是不是跟其他油脂業者同一時期同一出口商同一港口甚至同一船進口的"},{"start":696,"end":711.186,"text":"對不對 你們什麼都沒掌位我們要說明一下就是黃豆進口的時候因為在邊境要通過那個阻碍機關的輸入規定的檢查所以他們都是合格之後來進口你現在講的這個你把資料再拿給我"},{"start":715.908,"end":737.741,"text":"然後部長你們7月6號邀集大統一中聯台堂還有常輝四大油廠開會要求未來對進口黃豆原料採族傳或族批的這個檢驗那針對以後這是針對以後但為什麼沒有追四大廠以前的這個檢驗數據你們現在是既往不就展望未來嗎"},{"start":739.236,"end":754.642,"text":"對中聯的部分呢我們是從4月一直到6月30號的這中間的批次的樣本我們都全面再重驗一遍他過去他的自主檢驗有留下的樣本我們都重驗一遍因為四大廠一年大概可以產出50到60萬噸的大豆油嘛"},{"start":756.643,"end":766.83,"text":"你近年只抽了275件這個數字已經可以忽略不計實在不應該拿出來講275件對60萬噸你告訴我這個叫抽檢還是裝模作樣還是裝模作樣475件那個是指後市長的檢驗那我們現在當然除了剛剛提到對中聯去回溯他的這些檢驗之外我們重驗之外那另外對其他三個廠我們也提高我們的監測了"},{"start":786.463,"end":813.608,"text":"那以前就是讓廠商自己說有沒有合格嘛那當然合格的數字到底是多少是檢驗極限的0.1還是剛好低或略過的1.8你不知道我也看不到啊全台灣的消費者更看不到拿大同一來講市佔率三成到四成五全台灣的雞排店地瓜球攤食品加工廠幾乎全靠它你不能在不確定有沒有風險的時候就認定沒有問題啊"},{"start":815.39,"end":829.373,"text":"那過去這三個月半年來源是巴西黃豆煉出來的油我要求你比較中年的標準其他三大廠今年的進口的每一批的這個巴西黃豆生產的每一批的流量油重新送檢可以嗎"},{"start":832.732,"end":852.905,"text":"然後把這個數據公布給國人我們來進一步的抽驗實際上最大的問題就是什麼我們政府的鴕鳥心態你不讓民眾有知的權利那我現在要求進口的黃豆原料族傳或族批來做檢驗根據食藥署自己公告的食品多環芳香"},{"start":853.826,"end":872.835,"text":"竹炭氫化合物的檢驗方法這套方法是設計來驗已經提煉出來的油脂成品那生黃豆是固體裡面有蛋白質纖維這個脂肪還有直接這套的你直接用這一套的方法去驗萃取的效率根本不夠啊驗出來這個數據會準確嗎"},{"start":878.081,"end":894.531,"text":"跟委員說明針對黃豆這個原料如何確定它的所謂扁平比這個方法我們就積極的在做開發但是我們已經覺得它不可能我們是可以做這個我們一定可以去做這個方法"},{"start":895.071,"end":916.177,"text":"有有新的方法?沒有就是我們現在有他的有這個方法我們已經那天的報告就說可以報告是沒問題可以驗現在的自主檢驗是業者把檢體送去第三方民間實驗室例如這個SGS然後報告出來之後先回到業者的手上對不對是的"},{"start":918.237,"end":935.607,"text":"好那業者拿到的數據如果發現快超標的比如說驗出6.6或8.9他們可以先選擇先不主動上報然後去調整下一批的製程等到數據降下來才應付稽查或拿別的樣品去驗你也不知道啊"},{"start":936.974,"end":960.721,"text":"你會知道嗎所以跟委員說明所以未來我們會去要求對於外部送檢的部分要同步給一份報告給主管機關我認為啦食藥署應該要強制規定資本的3000萬以上的油脂廠檢體只要一進入認證實驗室化驗結果必須透過系統第一時間同步直接自動盲傳回到這個食藥署的大數據庫中"},{"start":963.962,"end":977.73,"text":"然後中間不容許有業者有任何的經手知情充換報告的這種時間差才能真正做到這個防偽與透明你們做得到嗎?做得到嗎?數據直連之後啦系統必須啟動統計製程管制的預警像這次事件一級致癌物"},{"start":989.716,"end":1008.347,"text":"BAP的歷史背景這個值都在0.5到0.7左右後來衝到1.6系統就應該在還沒破表之前自動亮燈然後主管機關就要求業者立刻暫停該線的經驗"},{"start":1011.969,"end":1022.058,"text":"那徹查高溫脫臭的交換系統有沒有漏油對不對我覺得你們要做到這一點不是等每一次失火了才抓那個一萬公里以外的這個87黃豆來當這個代罪羔羊"},{"start":1025.818,"end":1053.728,"text":"那第三個如果建立連線系統政府就能夠動態比對海關邊境的抽驗數據跟工廠成品自主檢驗數據一比對發現原料零成品卻連續幾個月維持高檔的時候系統就立刻能判定問題的所在地所在的這個地方台灣本土製程中直接這個就可以讓我們的稽查員去精準抓漏"},{"start":1054.628,"end":1079.877,"text":"好不好我希望你們把這個做到我們來研究一下這個因為台南有六成以上的餐飲在食品加工和飼料都綁在這條油脂巨頭的供應鏈上結果到最後你們把你們的食安把關是建立在自發良心我覺得這是非常危險的部長政府花了這麼多年建食品園推食安五環成立食安辦結果還是要靠業者自己發現"},{"start":1083.39,"end":1093.916,"text":"你對得起國人嗎?這我們會去強化再如何再去強化外部的監測我希望你們建立的是食安制度不是許願制度好不好?會會會謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:09.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:09.628000+08:00","text":"主席好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:10.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:11.409000+08:00","text":"我先請防檢署。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:12.710000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:22.015000+08:00","text":"請余組長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:36.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:42.403000+08:00","text":"我請問一下，美國進口馬鈴薯適用新規定的第一批什麼時候到臺灣？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"余組長俊明","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:42.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:42.403000+08:00","text":"委員，我……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:47.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:48.945000+08:00","text":"你們都不知道啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:49.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:49.466000+08:00","text":"那你來幹嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"余組長俊明","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:51.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:54.307000+08:00","text":"我們今天就是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:54.427000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:54.727000+08:00","text":"誰說我不能問這個？","quality":1},{"speaker":"余組長俊明","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:56.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:28:56.648000+08:00","text":"沒有、沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:28:57.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:00.169000+08:00","text":"我請教你什麼時候進來？6月中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:04.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:06.374000+08:00","text":"那我請教，卓榮泰院長當時有到現場視察嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:06.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:08.595000+08:00","text":"他不是在公開場合說，邊境檢查要逐顆檢查馬鈴薯有沒有發芽，結果到現在第一批貨進來了，最該被用放大鏡檢視的時候，他人在現場嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:08.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:09.376000+08:00","text":"他也沒去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"余組長俊明","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:26.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:27.056000+08:00","text":"報告委員，沒有。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:27.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:41.774000+08:00","text":"對啊，院長說逐顆檢查，結果第一批進來他人影都沒看到，這個一方面證明自己就是騙子，一方面也順便證明民進黨政府在面對重大食安跟貿易政策，就是口號治國、欺騙人民。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:42.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:44.597000+08:00","text":"我再請食安辦，你請回。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:44.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:51.085000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:29:51.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:29:59.448000+08:00","text":"主任，食安辦當初成立的目的，就是在重大食安事件發生時，第一時間統合各部會應變。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:00.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:17.155000+08:00","text":"請問中聯油脂的苯駢芘事件，食藥署6月30日就知道油品有問題了，為什麼從6月30號到7月7號陳時中政委才召開第一次的跨部會會議？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:17.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:23.417000+08:00","text":"我們一直都有做相關跨部會的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:24.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:25.918000+08:00","text":"所以你是各自啟動嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:25.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:25.918000+08:00","text":"還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:26.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:28.639000+08:00","text":"不是，我們食安辦……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:28.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:39.663000+08:00","text":"我請教一下，7月7號會議決定的事情，衛福部下架、教育部查學校、法務部偵辦這些事情是不是各部會在7月7日之前就已經在做了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:42.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:49.587000+08:00","text":"有一些事情是……我們隨時保持聯繫……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:50.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:52.789000+08:00","text":"也就是沒有聯絡，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:53.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:58.194000+08:00","text":"這個會議就是為了發揮你們應該有的統整協調的功能，還是只是因為……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:58.194000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:30:59.215000+08:00","text":"不是、不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:30:59.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:06.040000+08:00","text":"是因為盧召委今天排案了之後，你們為了應付召委才排的臨時過場？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:06.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:11.044000+08:00","text":"不會，我們其實各部會都有在做，政委的會議是聽取各部會報告。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:12.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:26.194000+08:00","text":"你告訴我，食安辦成立十幾年，現在才已知用火，才知道重大食安事件要開跨部會會議，主任，你這個辦公室到底是食安辦，還是等通知辦？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:26.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:35.159000+08:00","text":"我們都有在開跨部會的會議，平常沒有事件發生，我們也要開會，也要常常討論，因為各部會……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:35.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:36.040000+08:00","text":"你們討論都沒有結果。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:36.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:36.400000+08:00","text":"請姜署長。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:36.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:42.089500+08:00","text":"有請姜署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:42.089500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:47.779000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:47.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:31:56.852000+08:00","text":"按照你們對外釋放的資訊，食藥署在6月30號知道中聯油脂的油品有問題，賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長是什麼時候知道的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:31:58.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:06.287000+08:00","text":"我們6月30號知道，7月1號在部裡面通報部長。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:06.287000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:11.132000+08:00","text":"也就是說，中央政府、各部會都是同一個時間知道的，是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:11.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:14.695000+08:00","text":"我們就向上呈報，希望讓部裡面知道狀況，才能掌握……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:15.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:34.779000+08:00","text":"知道之後，7月3號賴總統去寵物展吃狗糧，7月4號油品影響學校團膳業者，教育部長鄭英耀去新竹輔選，同一場石部長原本要一起去的，換成經濟部長龔明鑫去幫一個候選人站臺。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:36.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:36.900000+08:00","text":"針對這個食安事件，他們都沒事做嗎？","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:36.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:32:37.900000+08:00","text":"7月4號卓榮泰還跑去嘉義朴子看屠宰場，回頭發言感謝我們蔡易餘委員爭取。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:32:37.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:09.278000+08:00","text":"7月6號總統跟卓榮院長在社群貼文，表示對癌油的關注，這樣的鋪陳安排在知道食安事件發生後，而且還繼續延燒的情況下，讓部會首長繼續進行輔選行程、總統吃狗糧、卓院長看屠宰場，這是在告訴國人人民的食安問題比豬、狗都還不如嗎？","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:21.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:30.575000+08:00","text":"我請你回去轉達，下次重大食安發生的時候，請總統把狗糧放下，請院長從屠宰場回來。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:32.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:33:57.358000+08:00","text":"卓榮泰院長昨天也說了，他7月3號召集衛福部跟食藥署開會，確認第二層下游廠商到底有多少家，當時你們一開始說224家，後來說291家，後來又變成257家，到最後是360家，也就是說，卓院長那天已經知道名單需要整理，也知道這個事情會影響消費者的知情權，沒錯吧？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:33:59.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:15.233000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們持續由地方各個衛生局協助匯報回來，隨著匯報的時間，我們把家數持續累積之後，確認整個……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:15.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:25.320000+08:00","text":"我再問下游的名單問題，你們雖然沒有辦法第一時間掌握，我請教一下，現在的食品雲，在重大食安事件裡面，它到底能夠做到哪一步？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:25.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:34.524000+08:00","text":"石部長，請回答一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:34.524000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:34:58.811000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，食品雲會去追蹤要求它登錄的源頭，但是這個事情發生之後，因為它的第一層到第二層，就是源頭的中聯到福壽、福懋跟泰山，這些我們可以馬上掌握，但是接下來再往下的，就要透過地方去調查……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:34:59.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:05.855000+08:00","text":"我看到你們基本資料登錄資訊的部分追溯資料，我聽起來就是什麼都有，但是什麼都不夠。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:06.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:22.805000+08:00","text":"我問一個具體的情境，假如今天下午兩點，實驗室確認某個批號的油有問題，請問食藥署是不是可以在30分鐘之內，直接從食品雲系統裡面拉出一個清單，有哪些下游業者？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:23.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:24.787000+08:00","text":"哪些產品使用這批油？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:25.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:26.829000+08:00","text":"哪些超商通路上架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:27.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:30.353000+08:00","text":"哪些便當店、飯糰、沙拉醬需要立即下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:31.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:33.517000+08:00","text":"30分鐘內可以做到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:33.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:35:58.119000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，我們剛剛講的食品雲是對製造的流程，製造裡面包含原料端是在哪裡，然後到哪一個端……第一層也就是剛剛我所提到的從中聯，到福壽、泰山、福壽，這個部分我們可以很清楚，但是在下面是販售的……","quality":0.702},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:35:58.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:06.083000+08:00","text":"所以食藥署現在只能用人工撈資料，業者提供什麼就核對什麼的這種原始方式？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:06.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:08.258000+08:00","text":"我們會去比對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:08.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:11.283000+08:00","text":"也就是原始的方式，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:11.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:13.146000+08:00","text":"業者的資料沒有跟政府的系統對接嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:13.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:13.607000+08:00","text":"有沒有對接？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:15.193000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:20.014000+08:00","text":"販售端沒有辦法，就是再往下，比如說泰山要賣給誰，那個是販售行為……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:20.014000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:22.654000+08:00","text":"如果是這樣，這套食品雲要做什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:22.654000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:27.575000+08:00","text":"過去幾年花了10億的經費建置食品雲，卻都遇到重大食安問題……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:27.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:28.575000+08:00","text":"這些製造的流向可以馬上掌握。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:27.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:29.916000+08:00","text":"你哪有馬上掌握？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:30.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:34.136000+08:00","text":"連即時追蹤與鎖定的能力都沒有，你們……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:34.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:37.897000+08:00","text":"從中間製造出來之後，我們立刻可以掌握到他往下這一層。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:37.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:46.157000+08:00","text":"你們一直說宣導電子化管理、AI內閣全部都是空的，你跟我講什麼叫做定位？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:46.757000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:53.482000+08:00","text":"實驗的錢可以蓋好幾間的校舍，可以買很多檢驗儀器，可以增聘多少稽查人力？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:36:53.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:36:56.584000+08:00","text":"結果你拿去做一個加強版的工商登記系統而已。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:00.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:06.907000+08:00","text":"食品雲的部分跟委員報告，我們繼續來精進，不過之前的設計主要是從製程的流程上監測，但是販售端，我們再……","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:06.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:11.009000+08:00","text":"我請問姜署長，7月3號你出來開記者會，當天決定不公布名單是卓榮泰院長的裁示嗎？","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:20.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:28.092000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，針對要怎麼去管理，我們是根據106年食品安全風險評估諮議會的下架原則，按照這個原則……","quality":0.61},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:28.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:29.113000+08:00","text":"你不要跟我扯106年，我只問7月3號當天是誰裁示不公布的？","quality":0.591},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:29.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:29.734000+08:00","text":"我們是按照過去原則再去做管理。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:37.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:40.743000+08:00","text":"不要講按照原則，那天是誰拍板的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:41.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:43.805000+08:00","text":"這是我在整個會議裡面，大家經過討論，然後做出……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:43.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:46.007000+08:00","text":"院長有表示反對嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:46.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:49.810000+08:00","text":"院長有沒有要求你們先公布已經確認的名單？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:50.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:51.551000+08:00","text":"我們先知道管理的原則在哪個階段……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:51.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:52.251000+08:00","text":"沒有嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:53.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:56.815000+08:00","text":"院長在場，且又是召集人，沒有他的同意，你當然不敢講，對不對？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:37:56.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:37:57.195000+08:00","text":"你們現在是幫他洗白，不是嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:03.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:06.924000+08:00","text":"我再次跟委員說明，我們要處理的是經過專家意見，以及評估之後我依專家意見來做階層的管理。","quality":0.35},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:07.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:12.787000+08:00","text":"回去告訴院長，不要推給專家，也不要推給下屬，他自己做的決定，他自己扛，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:12.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:15.648000+08:00","text":"我請關務署，今年第一批從巴西進口的黃豆，什麼時候進口？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:15.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:15.868000+08:00","text":"幾月幾日到港？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:15.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:16.148000+08:00","text":"請關務署副組長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳副組長美智","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:34.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:38.642000+08:00","text":"委員好，您詢問的資料可不可以之後再提供給您？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:38.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:40.324000+08:00","text":"你們沒準備，你今天來備詢幹什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:44.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:46.811000+08:00","text":"今年有多少製油業者從巴西進口黃豆？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:47.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:49.952000+08:00","text":"公司名稱跟進口數量是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:50.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:38:53.713000+08:00","text":"你們都沒掌握，而現在出事了，你們都還掌握不了？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:38:54.674000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:02.116000+08:00","text":"這些巴西的黃豆分別來自哪個出口商、哪個國際糧商，又從哪個港口或者糧倉出口的？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:02.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:02.376000+08:00","text":"你們都沒有資料？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:02.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:20.145000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂4月4號生產這批問題油，使用的巴西黃豆是哪一天進口的、哪一艘船、哪一張報單、哪一個出口商、哪一個港口，你們都掌握了嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:20.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:32.930000+08:00","text":"食藥署現在把問題可能的調查方向都指向巴西黃豆，中聯進口的這批黃豆是不是跟其他油脂業者同一時期、同一出口商、同一港口，甚至同一船進口的？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:37.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:38.441000+08:00","text":"你們什麼都沒掌握。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳副組長美智","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:39.721000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:51.286000+08:00","text":"我們要說明一下，黃豆進口的時候，因為在邊境要通過主管機關輸入規定的檢查，所以他們都是合格之後才進口。好啦！","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:51.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:39:52.166000+08:00","text":"你這樣講我聽不懂，你再把資料拿給我。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:39:57.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:18.741000+08:00","text":"部長，您7月6日號邀集大統益、中聯、台糖、長輝四大油廠開會，要求未來對進口黃豆原料採逐船或逐批檢驗，這是針對以後，但是為什麼沒有追四大廠以前的檢驗數據，你們現在是既往不究，展望未來嗎？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:20.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:32.841000+08:00","text":"對中聯的部分，從4月一直到6月30日中間的批次樣本，我們都會全面再重驗一遍，針對過去他自主檢驗留下的樣本，我們都重驗一遍。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:33.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:35.462000+08:00","text":"因為四大廠一年大概可以產出50到60萬噸的大豆油……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:35.462000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:37.643000+08:00","text":"那麼……對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:37.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:41.626000+08:00","text":"你近年只抽了275件，這個數字已經可以忽略不計，實在不應該拿出來講，275件對60萬噸，你告訴我這個叫抽檢，還是只是裝模作樣？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:40:41.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:40:47.810000+08:00","text":"275件是指後市場的檢驗，我們現在除了剛剛提到對中聯回溯他的檢驗來重驗之外，另外對其他三個廠，我們也提高監測了。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:07.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:12.824000+08:00","text":"以前就是讓廠商自己說有沒有合格嘛，但是合格的數字到底是多少？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:13.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:17.545000+08:00","text":"是檢驗極限的0.1，還是剛好低空掠過的1.8？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:17.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:21.265000+08:00","text":"你不知道，我也看不到，全臺灣的消費者更看不到！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:22.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:34.588000+08:00","text":"以大統益來講，市占率為三成到四成五，全臺灣的雞排店、地瓜球攤、食品加工廠，幾乎全靠他，你不能在不確定有沒有風險的時候，就認定沒有問題啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:36.671000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:50.373000+08:00","text":"過去這三個月、半年，來源是巴西黃豆煉出來的油，我要求你比照中聯的標準，其他三大廠今年進口的每一批巴西黃豆，所生產的每一批油重新送檢，可以嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:50.373000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:54.212000+08:00","text":"其實這三個大廠……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:54.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:55.233000+08:00","text":"把這個數據公布給國人，可以嗎？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:55.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:41:58.215000+08:00","text":"我們來進一步地抽驗。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:41:59.556000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:04.519000+08:00","text":"食安最大的問題就是我們政府的鴕鳥心態，你不讓民眾有知的權利。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:05.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:21.449000+08:00","text":"我現在要求，進口的黃豆原料逐船或逐批檢驗，根據食藥署公告的食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物的檢驗方法，這套方法是設計來驗已經提煉出來的油脂成品。","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:22.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:33.835000+08:00","text":"生黃豆是固體，裡面有蛋白質、纖維、脂肪，你直接用這一套方法去驗，萃取的效率根本不夠啊，驗出來的數據會準確嗎？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:39.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:50.588000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，針對黃豆原料如何確定苯駢芘的方法，我們積極地在開發，我們已經確認它不難……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:50.588000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:51.588000+08:00","text":"那你現在怎麼解決這個問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:51.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:52.109000+08:00","text":"我們是可以做的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:52.109000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:53.630000+08:00","text":"那個不準啊，不是嗎？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:53.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:55.511000+08:00","text":"我們已經可以去做這個方法。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:56.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:57.491000+08:00","text":"有新的方法？沒有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:57.491000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:42:58.491000+08:00","text":"有公布了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T12:42:58.372000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:04.013000+08:00","text":"只是我們現在有這個方法，我們那天的報告就已經說可以驗了，沒問題。","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:04.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:06.074000+08:00","text":"可以驗了？可以。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:06.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:17.157000+08:00","text":"現在的自主檢驗是業者把檢體送去第三方民間實驗室，例如SGS，然後報告出來之後，先回到業者的手上，對不對？是的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:19.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:36.587000+08:00","text":"好，業者拿到的數據如果發現快超標了，比如驗出6.6或8.9，他們可以選擇先不主動上報，然後去調整下一批的製程，等到數據降下來，才應付稽查或拿別的樣品去驗，你也不知道啊！","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:37.974000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:38.394000+08:00","text":"你會知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:38.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:43:45.096000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，所以未來我們會要求對外部送檢的部分，要同步給主管機關一份報告。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:43:46.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:44:15.628000+08:00","text":"我認為食藥署應該要強制規定資本額3,000萬以上的油脂廠，檢體只要一進入認證實驗室，化驗結果必須透過系統，第一時間同步直接自動盲傳，回到食藥署的大數據庫，中間不容許業者有任何經手、知情以抽換報告的時間差，才能真正做到防偽與透明，你們做得到嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:44:15.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:44:16.628000+08:00","text":"可以，這個我們來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:44:16.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:44:17.628000+08:00","text":"當然數據直接……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:44:17.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:44:18.628000+08:00","text":"我們也在規劃強化外部檢驗的資訊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:44:15.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:44:57.433000+08:00","text":"數據直連之後，系統必須啟動統計製程管制的預警，像這次事件，一級致癌物BaP的歷史背景，這個值都在0.5到0.7左右，後來衝到1.6，系統就應該在還沒破表之前自動亮燈，然後主管機關就要要求業者立刻暫停該線的精煉，徹查高溫脫臭的交換系統有沒有漏油，對不對？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:44:57.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:45:03.038000+08:00","text":"我覺得你們要做到這一點，不是等每一次失火了，才抓那個1萬公里以外的巴西黃豆來當代罪羔羊。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:45:07.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:45:37.409000+08:00","text":"如果建立連線系統，政府就能夠動態比對海關邊境的抽驗數據，跟工廠成品自主檢驗數據，一比對發現原料零，成品卻連續幾個月維持高檔，系統就立刻能判定問題的所在地方，臺灣本土製程中直接就可以讓稽查員去精準抓漏，我希望你們把這個部分做到。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:45:37.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:45:39.269000+08:00","text":"我們來研究一下這個部分。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:45:39.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:45:51.233000+08:00","text":"因為臺灣有六成以上的餐飲，在食品加工和飼料都綁在這條油脂巨頭的供應鏈上，結果到最後，你們的食安把關是建立在自發良心，我覺得這是非常危險的。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:45:52.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:06.111000+08:00","text":"部長，政府花了這麼多年建食品雲、推食安五環、成立食安辦，結果還是要靠業者自己發現，你對得起國人嗎？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:06.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:10.534000+08:00","text":"這部分我們會看如何再去強化外部的監測。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:10.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:14.756000+08:00","text":"我希望你們建立的是食安制度，不是許願制度，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:14.756000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:15.756000+08:00","text":"會，謝謝委員。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"邱委員鎮軍","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:14.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:14.916000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:15.416000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:18.273143+08:00","text":"謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:18.573143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:23.430286+08:00","text":"待會在陳昭姿委員詢答完畢後，休息30分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:23.730286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:26.587429+08:00","text":"現在請黃秀芳委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1132,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（12時28分）主席好。我先請防檢署。"],["主席：請余組長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請問一下，美國進口馬鈴薯適用新規定的第一批什麼時候到臺灣？"],["余組長俊明：委員，我……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們都不知道啊？那你來幹嘛！"],["余組長俊明：我們今天就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：誰說我不能問這個？"],["余組長俊明：沒有、沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請教你什麼時候進來？"],["余組長俊明：6月中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我請教，卓榮泰院長當時有到現場視察嗎？他不是在公開場合說，邊境檢查要逐顆檢查馬鈴薯有沒有發芽，結果到現在第一批貨進來了，最該被用放大鏡檢視的時候，他人在現場嗎？他也沒去？"],["余組長俊明：報告委員，沒有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，院長說逐顆檢查，結果第一批進來他人影都沒看到，這個一方面證明自己就是騙子，一方面也順便證明民進黨政府在面對重大食安跟貿易政策，就是口號治國、欺騙人民。我再請食安辦，你請回。"],["許主任輔：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：主任，食安辦當初成立的目的，就是在重大食安事件發生時，第一時間統合各部會應變。請問中聯油脂的苯駢芘事件，食藥署6月30日就知道油品有問題了，為什麼從6月30號到7月7號陳時中政委才召開第一次的跨部會會議？"],["許主任輔：我們一直都有做相關跨部會的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你是各自啟動嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["許主任輔：不是，我們食安辦……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請教一下，7月7號會議決定的事情，衛福部下架、教育部查學校、法務部偵辦這些事情是不是各部會在7月7日之前就已經在做了？"],["許主任輔：有一些事情是……我們隨時保持聯繫……"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是沒有聯絡，對不對？這個會議就是為了發揮你們應該有的統整協調的功能，還是只是因為……"],["許主任輔：不是、不是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是因為盧召委今天排案了之後，你們為了應付召委才排的臨時過場？"],["許主任輔：不會，我們其實各部會都有在做，政委的會議是聽取各部會報告。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你告訴我，食安辦成立十幾年，現在才已知用火，才知道重大食安事件要開跨部會會議，主任，你這個辦公室到底是食安辦，還是等通知辦？"],["許主任輔：我們都有在開跨部會的會議，平常沒有事件發生，我們也要開會，也要常常討論，因為各部會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們討論都沒有結果。請姜署長。"],["主席：有請姜署長。"],["姜署長至剛：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：按照你們對外釋放的資訊，食藥署在6月30號知道中聯油脂的油品有問題，賴清德總統跟卓榮泰院長是什麼時候知道的？"],["姜署長至剛：我們6月30號知道，7月1號在部裡面通報部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說，中央政府、各部會都是同一個時間知道的，是這樣嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們就向上呈報，希望讓部裡面知道狀況，才能掌握……"],["邱委員鎮軍：知道之後，7月3號賴總統去寵物展吃狗糧，7月4號油品影響學校團膳業者，教育部長鄭英耀去新竹輔選，同一場石部長原本要一起去的，換成經濟部長龔明鑫去幫一個候選人站臺。針對這個食安事件，他們都沒事做嗎？7月4號卓榮泰還跑去嘉義朴子看屠宰場，回頭發言感謝我們蔡易餘委員爭取。7月6號總統跟卓榮院長在社群貼文，表示對癌油的關注，這樣的鋪陳安排在知道食安事件發生後，而且還繼續延燒的情況下，讓部會首長繼續進行輔選行程、總統吃狗糧、卓院長看屠宰場，這是在告訴國人人民的食安問題比豬、狗都還不如嗎？我請你回去轉達，下次重大食安發生的時候，請總統把狗糧放下，請院長從屠宰場回來。","卓榮泰院長昨天也說了，他7月3號召集衛福部跟食藥署開會，確認第二層下游廠商到底有多少家，當時你們一開始說224家，後來說291家，後來又變成257家，到最後是360家，也就是說，卓院長那天已經知道名單需要整理，也知道這個事情會影響消費者的知情權，沒錯吧？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，我們持續由地方各個衛生局協助匯報回來，隨著匯報的時間，我們把家數持續累積之後，確認整個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再問下游的名單問題，你們雖然沒有辦法第一時間掌握，我請教一下，現在的食品雲，在重大食安事件裡面，它到底能夠做到哪一步？石部長，請回答一下。"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，食品雲會去追蹤要求它登錄的源頭，但是這個事情發生之後，因為它的第一層到第二層，就是源頭的中聯到福壽、福懋跟泰山，這些我們可以馬上掌握，但是接下來再往下的，就要透過地方去調查……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到你們基本資料登錄資訊的部分追溯資料，我聽起來就是什麼都有，但是什麼都不夠。我問一個具體的情境，假如今天下午兩點，實驗室確認某個批號的油有問題，請問食藥署是不是可以在30分鐘之內，直接從食品雲系統裡面拉出一個清單，有哪些下游業者？哪些產品使用這批油？哪些超商通路上架？哪些便當店、飯糰、沙拉醬需要立即下架？30分鐘內可以做到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，我們剛剛講的食品雲是對製造的流程，製造裡面包含原料端是在哪裡，然後到哪一個端……第一層也就是剛剛我所提到的從中聯，到福壽、泰山、福壽，這個部分我們可以很清楚，但是在下面是販售的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以食藥署現在只能用人工撈資料，業者提供什麼就核對什麼的這種原始方式？"],["石部長崇良：我們會去比對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是原始的方式，對不對？業者的資料沒有跟政府的系統對接嗎？有沒有對接？"],["石部長崇良：販售端沒有辦法，就是再往下，比如說泰山要賣給誰，那個是販售行為……"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果是這樣，這套食品雲要做什麼？過去幾年花了10億的經費建置食品雲，卻都遇到重大食安問題……"],["石部長崇良：這些製造的流向可以馬上掌握。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你哪有馬上掌握？連即時追蹤與鎖定的能力都沒有，你們……"],["石部長崇良：從中間製造出來之後，我們立刻可以掌握到他往下這一層。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們一直說宣導電子化管理、AI內閣全部都是空的，你跟我講什麼叫做定位？實驗的錢可以蓋好幾間的校舍，可以買很多檢驗儀器，可以增聘多少稽查人力？結果你拿去做一個加強版的工商登記系統而已。"],["石部長崇良：食品雲的部分跟委員報告，我們繼續來精進，不過之前的設計主要是從製程的流程上監測，但是販售端，我們再……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請問姜署長，7月3號你出來開記者會，當天決定不公布名單是卓榮泰院長的裁示嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員說明，針對要怎麼去管理，我們是根據106年食品安全風險評估諮議會的下架原則，按照這個原則……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不要跟我扯106年，我只問7月3號當天是誰裁示不公布的？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是按照過去原則再去做管理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要講按照原則，那天是誰拍板的？"],["姜署長至剛：這是我在整個會議裡面，大家經過討論，然後做出……"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長有表示反對嗎？院長有沒有要求你們先公布已經確認的名單？"],["姜署長至剛：我們先知道管理的原則在哪個階段……"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有嘛！院長在場，且又是召集人，沒有他的同意，你當然不敢講，對不對？你們現在是幫他洗白，不是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我再次跟委員說明，我們要處理的是經過專家意見，以及評估之後我依專家意見來做階層的管理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：回去告訴院長，不要推給專家，也不要推給下屬，他自己做的決定，他自己扛，好不好？","我請關務署，今年第一批從巴西進口的黃豆，什麼時候進口？幾月幾日到港？"],["主席：請關務署副組長。"],["陳副組長美智：委員好，您詢問的資料可不可以之後再提供給您？"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們沒準備，你今天來備詢幹什麼？今年有多少製油業者從巴西進口黃豆？公司名稱跟進口數量是多少？你們都沒掌握，而現在出事了，你們都還掌握不了？這些巴西的黃豆分別來自哪個出口商、哪個國際糧商，又從哪個港口或者糧倉出口的？你們都沒有資料？中聯油脂4月4號生產這批問題油，使用的巴西黃豆是哪一天進口的、哪一艘船、哪一張報單、哪一個出口商、哪一個港口，你們都掌握了嗎？食藥署現在把問題可能的調查方向都指向巴西黃豆，中聯進口的這批黃豆是不是跟其他油脂業者同一時期、同一出口商、同一港口，甚至同一船進口的？你們什麼都沒掌握。"],["陳副組長美智：我們要說明一下，黃豆進口的時候，因為在邊境要通過主管機關輸入規定的檢查，所以他們都是合格之後才進口。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！你這樣講我聽不懂，你再把資料拿給我。","部長，您7月6日號邀集大統益、中聯、台糖、長輝四大油廠開會，要求未來對進口黃豆原料採逐船或逐批檢驗，這是針對以後，但是為什麼沒有追四大廠以前的檢驗數據，你們現在是既往不究，展望未來嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對中聯的部分，從4月一直到6月30日中間的批次樣本，我們都會全面再重驗一遍，針對過去他自主檢驗留下的樣本，我們都重驗一遍。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為四大廠一年大概可以產出50到60萬噸的大豆油……"],["石部長崇良：那麼……對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你近年只抽了275件，這個數字已經可以忽略不計，實在不應該拿出來講，275件對60萬噸，你告訴我這個叫抽檢，還是只是裝模作樣？"],["石部長崇良：275件是指後市場的檢驗，我們現在除了剛剛提到對中聯回溯他的檢驗來重驗之外，另外對其他三個廠，我們也提高監測了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：以前就是讓廠商自己說有沒有合格嘛，但是合格的數字到底是多少？是檢驗極限的0.1，還是剛好低空掠過的1.8？你不知道，我也看不到，全臺灣的消費者更看不到！以大統益來講，市占率為三成到四成五，全臺灣的雞排店、地瓜球攤、食品加工廠，幾乎全靠他，你不能在不確定有沒有風險的時候，就認定沒有問題啊！過去這三個月、半年，來源是巴西黃豆煉出來的油，我要求你比照中聯的標準，其他三大廠今年進口的每一批巴西黃豆，所生產的每一批油重新送檢，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：其實這三個大廠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：把這個數據公布給國人，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我們來進一步地抽驗。"],["邱委員鎮軍：食安最大的問題就是我們政府的鴕鳥心態，你不讓民眾有知的權利。我現在要求，進口的黃豆原料逐船或逐批檢驗，根據食藥署公告的食品中多環芳香族碳氫化合物的檢驗方法，這套方法是設計來驗已經提煉出來的油脂成品。生黃豆是固體，裡面有蛋白質、纖維、脂肪，你直接用這一套方法去驗，萃取的效率根本不夠啊，驗出來的數據會準確嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員說明，針對黃豆原料如何確定苯駢芘的方法，我們積極地在開發，我們已經確認它不難……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在怎麼解決這個問題？"],["姜署長至剛：我們是可以做的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那個不準啊，不是嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們已經可以去做這個方法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有新的方法？"],["姜署長至剛：沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有公布了嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：只是我們現在有這個方法，我們那天的報告就已經說可以驗了，沒問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：可以驗了？"],["姜署長至剛：可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在的自主檢驗是業者把檢體送去第三方民間實驗室，例如SGS，然後報告出來之後，先回到業者的手上，對不對？"],["姜署長至剛：是的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，業者拿到的數據如果發現快超標了，比如驗出6.6或8.9，他們可以選擇先不主動上報，然後去調整下一批的製程，等到數據降下來，才應付稽查或拿別的樣品去驗，你也不知道啊！你會知道嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，所以未來我們會要求對外部送檢的部分，要同步給主管機關一份報告。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認為食藥署應該要強制規定資本額3,000萬以上的油脂廠，檢體只要一進入認證實驗室，化驗結果必須透過系統，第一時間同步直接自動盲傳，回到食藥署的大數據庫，中間不容許業者有任何經手、知情以抽換報告的時間差，才能真正做到防偽與透明，你們做得到嗎？"],["石部長崇良：可以，這個我們來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然數據直接……"],["石部長崇良：我們也在規劃強化外部檢驗的資訊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：數據直連之後，系統必須啟動統計製程管制的預警，像這次事件，一級致癌物BaP的歷史背景，這個值都在0.5到0.7左右，後來衝到1.6，系統就應該在還沒破表之前自動亮燈，然後主管機關就要要求業者立刻暫停該線的精煉，徹查高溫脫臭的交換系統有沒有漏油，對不對？我覺得你們要做到這一點，不是等每一次失火了，才抓那個1萬公里以外的巴西黃豆來當代罪羔羊。如果建立連線系統，政府就能夠動態比對海關邊境的抽驗數據，跟工廠成品自主檢驗數據，一比對發現原料零，成品卻連續幾個月維持高檔，系統就立刻能判定問題的所在地方，臺灣本土製程中直接就可以讓稽查員去精準抓漏，我希望你們把這個部分做到。"],["石部長崇良：我們來研究一下這個部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為臺灣有六成以上的餐飲，在食品加工和飼料都綁在這條油脂巨頭的供應鏈上，結果到最後，你們的食安把關是建立在自發良心，我覺得這是非常危險的。部長，政府花了這麼多年建食品雲、推食安五環、成立食安辦，結果還是要靠業者自己發現，你對得起國人嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這部分我們會看如何再去強化外部的監測。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望你們建立的是食安制度，不是許願制度，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：會，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。","宣告：待會在陳昭姿委員詢答完畢後，休息30分鐘。現在請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}