{"error":false,"id":["170376"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170376,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170376","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T12:46:29+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T13:02:51+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:22","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c82107666e9526f1334ad8c89d092fec882f4c2c552cdc9a7145f2920bcfc32d3c7235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:46:29 - 13:02:51","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":7.03409375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":7.40534375,"end":8.586593750000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":11.505968750000001,"end":11.72534375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":11.72534375,"end":12.282218750000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":12.26534375,"end":53.55846875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":12.29909375,"end":12.31596875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":53.828468750000006,"end":60.915968750000005,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":59.835968750000006,"end":59.98784375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":61.38846875,"end":62.35034375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":62.704718750000005,"end":74.26409375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":74.50034375,"end":97.61909375,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":84.08534375,"end":84.27096875000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":84.28784375000001,"end":84.40596875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":94.48034375,"end":94.85159375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":96.03284375000001,"end":97.78784375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":97.78784375000001,"end":150.75846875000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":105.11159375000001,"end":105.51659375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":105.51659375000001,"end":105.53346875000001,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":106.83284375000001,"end":107.20409375000001,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":112.21596875,"end":112.80659375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":116.21534375,"end":116.82284375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":122.66159375000001,"end":123.08346875000001,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":123.48846875000001,"end":124.18034375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":132.39846875,"end":132.88784375,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":136.88721875000002,"end":137.34284375000001,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"周副司長志勳","start":141.32534375,"end":141.34221875,"speaker_score":1},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":141.34221875,"end":141.71346875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":147.01221875000002,"end":149.17221875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":150.10034375,"end":170.09721875000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":155.93909375,"end":156.56346875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":156.64784375000002,"end":157.71096875,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":169.00034375,"end":169.32096875000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":170.08034375,"end":200.53971875000002,"speaker_score":0.833},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":175.39596875,"end":175.83471875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":177.16784375,"end":178.21409375000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"黃委員秀芳","start":182.53409375,"end":184.01909375000002,"sp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歡迎您好 部長好部長 我記得在上禮拜四我在質詢的時候也有特別提到就是說這個使用有出現這樣的一個問題那當然我們當時還不是那麼清楚就會覺得說那是下游廠商這個南橋那個發現 然後這個通報嘛那結果我們今天看的是南橋它知道之後它還是繼續製造 繼續販賣"},{"start":39.429,"end":60.514,"text":"所以我就覺得說這個整個系統我覺得真的都是出現問題了那除了就是說中聯油脂有這樣的一個問題之外那其他三大家製造油脂的這個三大廠你們目前的你們去查廠或者是說你們去檢驗的這個頻率我覺得都要一致啦因為你看"},{"start":61.474,"end":88.404,"text":"影響的到消費者影響的這個程度真的是非常的嚴重那我想請教就是說部長從你們得知這個訊息之後到現在也一個多禮拜的時間那你們到底做了什麼跟委員說明當然除了針對這個中聯的油品我們去趕快去串聯出他的所有的下游的商品讓這個資訊能夠公開透明讓所有的消費者知道之外"},{"start":89.764,"end":112.482,"text":"那當然對於這個發生什麼問題要搞清楚才能夠去做我們之後的強化所以我們回去把它從四月到六月底的所有的它的樣本通通再重驗一遍這個明天的報告就會出來了來釐清到底在哪個環節出了問題哪一些有沒有還有其他的批次有問題"},{"start":113.323,"end":127.2,"text":"所以這個是針對這個中聯這裡我們做的這些事情那第二個呢當然對於其他的還有另外的這個三家業者我們也找來了把我們這個發現到的這些有可能的問題要強化他們的"},{"start":129.262,"end":145.576,"text":"檢測所以他們現在開始採逐批檢驗所以這個地方來確保在市面上再出來的是安全的那另外我們也會去處理的就是後市場的部分也去請衛生局加強除了這個下架之外也加強後市場的這個檢驗抽檢大概就是"},{"start":150.499,"end":167.786,"text":"那我想請教部長就是說原本你們應該也是信任業者就是自主管理結果你現在出了這樣的一個問題那你現在還相信就是說業者現在逐批檢驗那逐批檢驗他的資料就是檢驗結果是怎樣是怎麼給你們的目前是怎麼給你們的"},{"start":170.487,"end":199.667,"text":"那也跟委員說明大概我們之前設計的這是三級品管一級就是它自主檢驗它要定期的去檢驗那這個自主檢驗的頻率現在變成逐批嗎對 我們的頻率還有檢驗抽樣的這個節點等等這些我們現在會重新再檢討這個是第一級的部分那第二級的話應該是屬於所謂第三方檢驗所以他們也會去受第三方第三方檢驗是"},{"start":200.947,"end":225.669,"text":"是那個定期的並不是逐批的逐批的是指它內部的一個自主檢驗那第二個呢是這個第三方檢驗就是外部檢驗的部分我們現在是要需要研議的是如何讓第三方的檢驗的報告可以直接回到中央因為現在的前面的通報慢了嘛他們延遲的通報那事實上那個第三方檢驗是知道的"},{"start":226.549,"end":251.752,"text":"只是說他把這個報告呢回到了業者那業者呢就隱匿沒有報所以如果我們在第三方檢驗的部分呢直接跟中央是連著或跟地方的主管機關就是跟地方主管機關可以直接掌握到第一個檢驗報告出來異常那這樣我們就他不通報我們也可以介入所以第二個我們要檢討的是第三方檢驗的資訊流"},{"start":253.433,"end":281.053,"text":"要直接串到我們的這個地方主管這個我們現在在研究做這件事情需要多久的時間應該很快我們至少可以先要求這個這個資本通報未來再採用系統通報就資訊系統通報那資本通報只要一異常他就要通報就不需要透過業者委託的業者直接就要通報主管機關這個我們近期就會做出這個檢討"},{"start":282.174,"end":301.104,"text":"那第三個當然就是後市場檢驗這個第三級那後市場的部分過去我們確實也做了這四年來也做了兩百多件那驗出來呢也都是核標所以我們也會去有這個事件之後呢也先加強了這個後市場要去抽驗"},{"start":301.544,"end":324.894,"text":"其實我覺得源頭管理是最重要的就是說這個油脂製造完之後賣到這個下油這個源頭是最重要的所以源頭的部分我們就是最上油的這個製造廠到底這一次的這個問題是出在製程的哪一個地方還是原料的問題我們要先把它搞清楚搞清楚之後我們才能知道說那我們是要加強這個原料"},{"start":326.535,"end":337.568,"text":"還是製程的穩定的問題那才有辦法提出對策來預防下一次的發生好 所以這個要多久的時間才可以確定說到底是製程的問題還是原料應該一兩個禮拜內我們就要把這個問題釐清了這樣好"},{"start":341.152,"end":369.022,"text":"其實這個食用油出現問題其實會變成消費者的很大的一個恐慌每天每個人吃的東西多多少少都一定會有這樣的油不論是炸的或者是任何東西炒菜什麼都一定會用到嘛那消費者他會想要知道就是說我今天用的這些油到底安不安全所以剛剛我聽其他委員在質詢那部長也有特別提到目前市面上的所有的油都是安全的嗎我們目前"},{"start":370.022,"end":395.553,"text":"已經確認的就是這一批這個中聯的有問題的現在都已經完成那其他的啊那現在我們是查到哪裡我們就會因為我們現在擴大擴大查驗了嘛所以只要一查有問題我們就會立刻對外宣布所以對市面上所有的這個食用油你們現在也都會擴大去查驗我們現在正在擴大查驗就剛剛提到的除了中聯的還有很多批次嘛"},{"start":396.073,"end":419.385,"text":"所以我們會全部清一遍 擴大不是只有那一個南橋驗出有問題的地址而已那其他像大統益 台糖或是長輝我們也再加強監測對於他們所賣到下游廠商製造出來的這些食用油你們會不會也去抽驗我們接著也是會驗這另外三家的我覺得應該是要同步啦對 同步都會進行"},{"start":420.185,"end":440.208,"text":"我們是先針對中聯的然後在其他三家中聯這個食用油出包那其他的那個大統一他的生產的這個食用油其實比這個中聯還要多不過他們現在已經先採逐批查驗了那只是說往前的部分我們再回去抽他過去的批次"},{"start":441.469,"end":460.536,"text":"那現在往後的呢他往後的都已經用逐批查驗的方式出口我希望就是說在市面上所有的食用油就也請部長這邊還有署長這邊真的要更積極趕快盡快把這個有問題的油趕快揪出來到底是原料的關係或者是製程的關係我覺得應該"},{"start":461.656,"end":486.715,"text":"要競速啦要不然你這樣子市面上民眾他都會恐慌我現在到底要不要買或者是我要買什麼牌子的油甚至我買的這個牌的油其實它的上游就是中聯那還不是一樣所以我覺得我們衛福部跟食藥署這邊最重要就是要讓所有的民眾他能夠很放心我現在買的油它是安全的我吃到的東西它是安全的"},{"start":488.396,"end":508.59,"text":"對 我們的目標就是這樣所以我們才會持續在擴大一直在檢驗當中好 那部長我想請教就是說上禮拜我們在詢問的時候那時候覺得說那是南橋他發現的嘛結果發現說南橋他也當他發現這個油脂有問題他還是繼續生產繼續賣那也沒有通報你們嘛 對不對一開始"},{"start":513.553,"end":538.981,"text":"沒有通報對 沒有通報所以我那時候就在懷疑就是說其實應該就是他們應該很早就知道了那因為是油真的非常的大量可能他們知道可能就一千三百公噸這麼多的油那怎麼辦只好繼續繼續賣繼續製造那時候我的猜測是這樣子啦可是我覺得說大概我們希望衛福部跟食藥署發生這樣的問題應該要趕快就是說"},{"start":543.642,"end":565.729,"text":"讓民眾安心那是不是有隱匿就是說既然都已經知道了然後他也不通報那也不預防性的下架那像這樣子的話我想請教那個部長跟署長那這個要怎麼辦你們有啟動就為什麼既然都已經知道了那你還不通報"},{"start":567.962,"end":595.822,"text":"對 所以我們也除了這個中聯我們先做出這個重罰之外那其他的也由地方政府再去了解這些下游的 就是這三家這個泰山啊 還有這個福茂啊 福壽啊那麼他們何時得知之後他有沒有繼續販賣如果還是有繼續這樣的試食出貨販賣的話那也一樣會給予重罰可是目前看是這樣子啊"},{"start":597.863,"end":623.32,"text":"要移清楚之後就會我覺得就是說中聯油脂它既然是泰山福壽跟福茂這三家就是合資嘛那我覺得說第一時間既然難巧知道我覺得它應該也會通報給這三家至少應該也會跟他們知會一下那既然知道了那既然都還不通報對"},{"start":624.581,"end":643.333,"text":"我覺得這個真的要好好的去查那當然我們都是原本都是這個衛福部食藥署都信任這個業者能夠自主管理可是經過今天的這樣的一個事件的發生我相信大家對這一層相信信任自主管理我覺得大家都要打一個問號了"},{"start":645.634,"end":665.18,"text":"所以部長未來這個部分我覺得你們也要對於自主管理這部分我覺得真的不能再相信業者就是說他能夠自主管理所以對於這個不遵守我們要求的那當然要重罰那但是我們也會再建立外部的監測強化這個外部的監測機制"},{"start":666.3,"end":686.977,"text":"好那部長如果接下來就是說萬一是製程也好或者是說黃豆原料出問題如果今天是黃豆原料出問題的話那你們會啟動什麼樣的譬如說啟動茶廠或是到原料廠可能到巴西去茶廠有可能這樣做嗎或者是"},{"start":687.958,"end":704.822,"text":"或者是你們有什麼樣的作為因為這個黃豆進來的用途很多啦不只是只有這個煉油嘛所以做煉油的部分如果這個是原料要加強管控那我們就會在原料的部分要求要一樣要檢驗而不是只有油品的本身檢驗還有檢驗的方法我們就會提供"},{"start":706.783,"end":729.573,"text":"因為黃豆製品非常非常的多不是只有油我們日常生活吃的很多都是黃豆製品早上吃的這個豆漿豆腐什麼黃豆的製品真的非常的多那萬一如果是這個黃豆出問題的話那對於其他除了油脂會有影響那其他的東西會有影響嗎"},{"start":730.393,"end":746.072,"text":"當然過去我們黃豆在邊境有在抽驗那主要抽驗的話就會以農藥黃麴毒素這些真的是我們認為是比較有影響的這個今天出現的這個VAP這個是油脂這邊產生的"},{"start":747.854,"end":762.708,"text":"所以這個是另外一個管理的模式是在製造端所以邊境端是針對黃豆本身的品質那後面這個是在製程當中可能產生的致癌物質的管理這是兩件事情都要做"},{"start":763.649,"end":789.005,"text":"那部長我想再請教一下就是說我們剛剛講的那個市場的這個抽驗那市場的抽驗我希望就是說這個衛福部食藥署這邊能夠一個更公開讓民眾可以隨時就可以得知就是說你們今天查到什麼然後就是哪幾個這個產品是有問題的我覺得是應該要更公開讓民眾能夠更了解"},{"start":791.406,"end":816.317,"text":"只要查驗一有問題我們都會要求資訊會公開然後後面會採取下架的措施接下來我想再請教一下因為中聯油脂它佔的市佔率就40%其他三家就佔30%剛剛講的四大油脂公司中聯油脂目前是停產的"},{"start":817.757,"end":830.429,"text":"目前是停止生產嘛 對不對那我想請教就是說那你停止生產那後面我不知道他要停多久就是可能要找到原因之後才有可能再恢復那這個未來"},{"start":833.931,"end":859.276,"text":"這個其他三家在製造這個油脂那這個未來會不會有缺油的這個狀況或者是現在有一些這個畜牧業者他們就擔心就是說飼料會不會有影響所以我想請教部長就是說目前我們的這個中聯油脂目前是停產的那其他三家所生產出來這些油脂足夠我們台灣我們國人來使用嗎所以"},{"start":861.536,"end":879.558,"text":"所以當然就是說因為他這個市佔率高所以剩下這三家務必我們會請他們多增加產量但是我們也會強化那個監測那麼當然第二個這個中聯的部分我們也會盡快的把這個原因釐清"},{"start":880.499,"end":895.421,"text":"因為他畢竟他的產量在這個特別是他還有他的那些炸油之後的這些豆渣還是作為飼料使用的有這個需求所以我們會趕快釐清然後確認原因在哪裡製程都改善完畢之後讓他復工"},{"start":897.163,"end":922.653,"text":"所以這個要等到這些都安全沒有問題的才讓他復工是好那我們也希望就是說未來不要有缺油的這樣子的狀況因為畢竟他的市占率有40%那如果他現在停產那等他可以整個安全之後復產之後這個會不會造成市場的一些波動我希望就是說部長針對市場端你應該也要去監測會不會有缺油的這個狀況好"},{"start":926.394,"end":942.691,"text":"那個農業部就是有關這個飼料的這個部分應該也要因為有一些畜牧業者有這樣的一個反應那我想請教你們後續會啟動什麼樣的因應方式跟委員報告我們大概禮拜一已經有找我們這個幾家業者有來討論"},{"start":943.652,"end":964.617,"text":"那其中有兩家會增加兩成的一個生產量那其他的部分我們會用是要配方像譬如像全豆黃豆粉還有我們玉米酒泡還有玉米蛋白等等這些來替代那也會盡速把這些可以做的做一個地方可以去連結讓我們業者也可以知道"},{"start":965.905,"end":966.826,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:34.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:35.686000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請部長。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:35.686000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:38.848500+08:00","text":"請石部長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:38.848500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:42.011000+08:00","text":"黃委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:42.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:46:42.091000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:46:42.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:47:12.230000+08:00","text":"記得上禮拜四我在質詢的時候也有特別提到食用油出現這樣的問題，我們當時還不是那麼清楚，覺得那是下游廠商南僑發現然後通報，結果今天看到的是南僑知道之後還是繼續製造、繼續販賣，所以我覺得整個系統真的都出現問題了。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:47:13.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:47:34.876000+08:00","text":"除了中聯油脂有這樣的問題之外，針對其他製造油脂的三大廠，你們目前查廠或者是檢驗的頻率，我覺得都要一致，因為影響消費者的程度真的是非常地嚴重。","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:47:35.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:47:43.939000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，從你們得知這個訊息之後，到現在也一個多禮拜的時間，你們到底做了什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:47:43.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:05.049000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，針對中聯的油品，我們除了趕快去串聯出他所有的下游商品，讓資訊能夠公開、透明，讓所有的消費者知道外，當然對於發生什麼問題要搞清楚，才能夠去做我們之後的強化……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:05.049000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:06.049000+08:00","text":"那你們現在知道了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:05.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:19.181000+08:00","text":"所以我們回去把他從4月到6月底的所有樣本通通再重驗一遍，明天報告就會出來了，來釐清到底在哪個環節出了問題？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:19.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:21.482000+08:00","text":"還有沒有其他的批次有問題？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:22.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:25.948000+08:00","text":"這個是針對中聯的部分，我們做了這些事情。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:26.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:45.728000+08:00","text":"第二個，對於另外三家業者，我們也把他們找來，就我們發現到這些有可能的問題，要求強化他們的監測，所以他們現在開始採逐批檢驗，以確保市面上的產品是安全的。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:46.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.376000+08:00","text":"另外，我們也會處理的就是後市場的部分，會請衛生局除了下架之外，也加強後市場的檢驗……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.376000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:55.376000+08:00","text":"抽檢，是抽檢嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.396000+08:00","text":"對，抽檢。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:48:54.556000+08:00","text":"大概就是做這些事。好。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:48:59.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:04.941000+08:00","text":"我想請教部長，原本你們應該也是信任業者的自主管理……","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:04.941000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:05.941000+08:00","text":"是，自主檢驗。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:05.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:16.766000+08:00","text":"結果現在出了這樣的問題，那你現在還相信……就是業者現在逐批檢驗的資料、檢驗的結果是怎樣，目前是怎麼給你們的？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:19.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:30.695000+08:00","text":"也跟委員說明，我們之前設計的是三級品管，一級就是他自主檢驗，他要定期去檢驗，自主檢驗的頻率……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:32.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:32.436000+08:00","text":"現在變逐批嘛。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:33.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:41.442000+08:00","text":"對，頻率還有檢驗抽樣的節點等等，我們現在會重新再檢討，這個是第一級的部分。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:42.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:47.426000+08:00","text":"第二級的話，應該是屬於所謂的第三方檢驗，他們也會送地方……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:47.426000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:48.426000+08:00","text":"也是逐批嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:48.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:56.974000+08:00","text":"第三方檢驗是定期的，並不是逐批，逐批的是指他內部的第一個自主檢驗……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:56.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:49:57.974000+08:00","text":"自主管理是逐批。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:49:57.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:00.537000+08:00","text":"第二個是第三方檢驗，也就是外部檢驗。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:01.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:21.114000+08:00","text":"現在需要研議的是如何讓第三方的檢驗報告可以直接回到中央，目前因為前面的通報慢了，他們延遲通報，但事實上第三方檢驗是知道的，只是他讓報告回到業者那邊，業者就隱匿沒有報。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:21.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:35.947000+08:00","text":"如果第三方檢驗直接跟中央是連著的，或讓地方主管機關可以直接掌握到檢驗出來的第一個報告，知道有異常，這樣即便他不通報，我們也可以……","quality":0.797},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:35.947000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:36.948000+08:00","text":"你們也知道？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:36.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:37.168000+08:00","text":"也可以介入。好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:37.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:45.735000+08:00","text":"所以我們第二個要檢討的是，第三方檢驗的資訊流要直接串到地方主管機關……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:45.735000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:46.735000+08:00","text":"你們什麼時候可以做到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:46.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:49.518000+08:00","text":"我們現在在研究做這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:49.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:51.240000+08:00","text":"需要多久時間？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:50:51.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:50:59.626000+08:00","text":"應該很快，而且我們至少可以先要求紙本通報，未來再採用系統通報，即資訊系統通報。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:00.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:04.870000+08:00","text":"至於紙本通報，只要一異常就要通報，就不需要透過業者了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:05.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:10.053000+08:00","text":"換句話說，受委託檢驗的業者直接就要通報主管機關，這點我們近期就會做出檢討。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:11.334000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:15.316000+08:00","text":"第三個，當然就是後市場檢驗，這是第三級。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:15.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:24.141000+08:00","text":"其實後市場這部分，我們過去確實也做了，這四年來做了兩百多件，驗出來的也都合標。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:26.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:30.104000+08:00","text":"在這次事件之後，我們先加強後市場的抽驗。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:30.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:32.785000+08:00","text":"其實我覺得源頭管理是最重要的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:33.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:38.788000+08:00","text":"畢竟油脂製造完之後會賣到下游，所以源頭是最重要的。","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:39.028000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:47.592000+08:00","text":"針對源頭，即最上游的製造廠，到底這次問題是出在製程的哪個地方？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:48.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:48.992000+08:00","text":"還是原料問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:48.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:51:57.337000+08:00","text":"我們要先搞清楚，搞清楚之後才能知道是要加強原料查驗，抑或是製程的穩定問題？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:51:57.518000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:00.661000+08:00","text":"這樣才有辦法提出對策，來預防下一次的發生。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:00.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:05.667000+08:00","text":"好，所以要多久時間才可以確定到底是製程的問題，還是原料─黃豆的問題？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:05.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:06.548000+08:00","text":"應該一、兩個禮拜內就可以把問題釐清。好。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:12.133000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:24.497000+08:00","text":"食用油出現問題，會造成消費者很大的恐慌，畢竟每天每個人所吃的東西，多多少少都一定會有油，不論是炸的或炒菜什麼的，任何東西都一定會用到。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:25.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:29.539000+08:00","text":"因此消費者想知道的是，今天用的油到底安不安全？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:31.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:36.701000+08:00","text":"剛剛聆聽其他委員質詢時部長也有特別提到，目前市面上所有的油都是安全的？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:37.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:44.364000+08:00","text":"目前已經確認就是中聯這一批有問題的，現在都已經完成下架……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:44.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:45.025000+08:00","text":"其他的呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:45.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:53.048000+08:00","text":"現在是查到哪裡就會……因為現在已經擴大查驗了，所以只要一到查有問題，會立刻對外宣布。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:53.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:52:58.910000+08:00","text":"所以市面上所有的食用油，你們現在也都擴大去查驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:52:59.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:10.816000+08:00","text":"對，現在正在擴大查驗，畢竟中聯有很多批次，所以我們會全部擴大清查一遍，不是只針對南僑驗出有問題的批次……","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:11.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:14.238000+08:00","text":"其他像大統益、台糖、長輝……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:14.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:18.160000+08:00","text":"就是加強監測。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:18.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:23.662000+08:00","text":"對於他們賣給下游廠商製造出來的這些食用油，你們會不會也去……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:23.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:26.083000+08:00","text":"我們接著就會驗這另外三家。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:26.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:27.624000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要同步。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:27.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:28.365000+08:00","text":"對，會同步進行。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:28.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:29.365000+08:00","text":"應該要同步……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:29.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:32.108000+08:00","text":"我們先針對中聯，然後再針對其他三家……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:32.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:39.877000+08:00","text":"這次中聯的食用油出包，但大統益所生產的食用油其實比中聯還要多。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:41.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:49.188000+08:00","text":"所以現在已經先採逐批查驗，至於往前的部分，我們再回去抽它過去的批次。是。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:50.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:53:54.350000+08:00","text":"現在往後的，都已經用逐批查驗的方式處理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:53:56.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:09.296000+08:00","text":"針對市面上所有的食用油，我希望部長及署長要更積極趕快、儘快把有問題的油揪出來，看到底是原料的關係，或者是製程的關係。","quality":0.849},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:09.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:17.401000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要儘速，不然會造成民眾的恐慌：現在到底要不要買？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:17.401000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:18.962000+08:00","text":"或者要買什麼牌子的油？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:19.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:24.667000+08:00","text":"甚至買的油上游就是中聯，所以還不是一樣？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:24.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:35.695000+08:00","text":"所以衛福部跟食藥署最重要的就是要讓所有的民眾能很放心，現在買的油是安全的，我吃到的東西是安全的！是、是。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:35.695000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:37.396000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:37.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:42.420000+08:00","text":"我們的目標就是這樣，所以才會持續擴大，一直在檢驗當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:44.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:57.490000+08:00","text":"我想請教，上禮拜質詢時得知這件事是南僑發現的，結果後來才知道當南僑發現油脂有問題時，還是繼續生產、繼續賣，也沒有通報你們，對不對？","quality":0.741},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:54:57.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:54:57.570000+08:00","text":"就是一開始的時候。","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:02.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:03.373000+08:00","text":"對，沒有通報。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:03.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:03.793000+08:00","text":"沒有通報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:03.793000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:18.778000+08:00","text":"所以我那時候就懷疑，他們應該很早就知道了，可能因為油真的非常大量，多達1,300公噸，這麼多的油該怎麼辦？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:18.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:23.179000+08:00","text":"只好繼續賣、繼續製造，那時候我的猜測是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:24.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:33.222000+08:00","text":"既然發生這樣的問題，我希望衛福部跟食藥署應該儘快讓民眾安心。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:33.222000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:38.244000+08:00","text":"至於是不是有隱匿……都已經知道了也不通報，也不預防性下架，我想請教部長跟署長，這要怎麼辦？","quality":0.154},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:38.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:55:54.729000+08:00","text":"既然都已經知道了還不通報。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:55:56.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:05.228000+08:00","text":"所以我們除了先對中聯重罰之外，其他的則由地方政府再去了解。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:07.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:15.415000+08:00","text":"下游的這三家，也就是泰山、福懋和福壽何時得知？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:16.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:18.257000+08:00","text":"之後有沒有繼續販賣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:18.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:23.601000+08:00","text":"如果還是繼續這樣，且有事實的出貨販賣，一樣會給予重罰！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:23.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:24.722000+08:00","text":"目前看起來是這樣。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:27.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:29.025000+08:00","text":"釐清楚之後就會……我們絕對毋枉毋縱！","quality":0.467},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:29.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:49.158000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂是泰山、福壽跟福懋三家所合資的，南僑在第一時間知道後，應該也會通報這三家，至少會知會一下。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:50.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:56:56.303000+08:00","text":"既然都知道了，卻都不通報，這真的要好好去查！對。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:56:59.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:12.313000+08:00","text":"衛福部和食藥署原本信任業者能自主管理，但經過這次事件，大家對於自主管理的信任都要打一個問號了！","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:15.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:24.597000+08:00","text":"部長，未來對於自主管理這部分，我覺得你們真的不能再相信業者能自主管理了！對。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:25.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:35.300000+08:00","text":"對於不遵守要求的，當然重罰，不過我們會再建立外部監測，強化外部的監測機制。好。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:37.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:49.011000+08:00","text":"接下來不管是製程或黃豆原料出問題，假設是黃豆原料出問題，你們會啟動什麼樣的……譬如啟動查廠？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:49.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:55.677000+08:00","text":"或者到原料廠查廠，譬如到巴西，有可能這樣做嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:55.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:57:58.678000+08:00","text":"或者你們要採取什麼樣的作為？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:57:59.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:03.040000+08:00","text":"其實黃豆進來的用途很多，不只是煉油。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:04.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:13.582000+08:00","text":"因此，就煉油部分來說，原料要加強管控，就會在原料的部分要求檢驗，而且不是只檢驗油品，當然，我們也會提供檢驗的方法。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:17.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:20.625000+08:00","text":"黃豆製品非常非常多，不是只有油。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:21.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:27.628000+08:00","text":"日常生活中很多吃的都是黃豆製品，比如早上吃的豆漿、豆腐。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:29.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:38.573000+08:00","text":"正因為黃豆製品真的非常多，萬一是黃豆出問題，除了對油脂有影響外，其他製品也會有影響嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:39.814000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:58:50.326000+08:00","text":"過去黃豆會在邊境抽驗，主要抽驗的以農藥、黃麴毒素這類真的比較有影響的。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:58:51.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:59:11.688000+08:00","text":"至於這次出現的BaP是油脂所產生的，其管理模式在製造端，而邊境端則是針對黃豆本身的品質，後面則是在製程當中所可能產生的致癌物質管理，這兩件事情都要做。","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:59:13.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:59:32.121000+08:00","text":"部長，我想再請教，剛剛有提到市場抽驗，我希望衛福部食藥署能對此更公開，讓民眾可以隨時得知今天查到什麼？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:59:33.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:59:35.383000+08:00","text":"哪幾個產品是有問題的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:59:35.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:59:37.985000+08:00","text":"我覺得應該要更公開，讓民眾能更了解。會。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T12:59:40.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T12:59:47.769000+08:00","text":"只要查驗一有問題，我們都會要求資訊公開，後面則會採取下架的措施。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T12:59:49.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:00:05.297000+08:00","text":"接下來我想再請教一下，因為中聯油脂的市占率是40%嘛，其他三家則占30%，這是剛剛講的四大油脂公司，中聯油脂目前是停止生產，對不對？對。","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:00:05.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:00:29.812000+08:00","text":"我想請教的是，中聯停止生產之後，我不知道它要停多久，可能要找到原因之後才能再恢復嘛，未來只有其他三家製造油脂，會不會有缺油的狀況？","quality":0.814},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:00:30.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:00:48.156000+08:00","text":"現在有一些畜牧業者擔心飼料會不會有影響，所以我想請教部長，目前中聯油脂是停產的，其他三家所生產出來的油脂足夠我們臺灣國人來使用嗎？","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:00:51.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:01:02.170000+08:00","text":"因為它的市占率高啦，所以剩下這三家，我們會請他們務必要多增加產量，但是我們也會強化相關的監測。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:01:02.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:01:29.604000+08:00","text":"第二個，針對中聯的部分，我們也會儘快的把原因釐清，因為畢竟它的產量，特別是還有榨油之後的豆渣要作為飼料使用，有這個需求，所以我們會趕快釐清、確認原因並且將製程都改善完畢之後讓它復工，要等到這些都安全、沒有問題了，之後才會讓它復工。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:01:30.345000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:01:51.633000+08:00","text":"好，我們也希望未來不要有缺油的狀況，因為畢竟它的市占率有40%，如果現在它停產，等它整個安全之後、復產之後，會不會造成市場的一些波動，我希望部長針對市場端應該也要去監測會不會有缺油的狀況。好。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:01:56.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:06.305000+08:00","text":"農業部針對飼料的部分應該也要……因為有一些畜牧業者有這樣的反映，我想請教農業部，你們後續會啟動什麼樣的因應方式？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"周副司長志勳","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:06.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:33.597000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，禮拜一我們已經有找幾家業者來討論，其中有兩家會增加兩成的生產量；至於其他的部分，我們會用飼料配方，譬如像全豆、黃豆粉，還有玉米酒粕、玉米蛋白等等這些來替代，也會儘速把可以做的去做連結，讓我們的業者也可以知道。","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:33.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:34.597000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:34.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:35.597000+08:00","text":"部長，我再次重申，麻煩你們真的要儘速查明原因，趕快把這個狀況查明，讓國人能夠安心，好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:35.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:36.597000+08:00","text":"好，沒問題，我們全力來做。","quality":0},{"speaker":"黃委員秀芳","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:36.597000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:37.597000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:34.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:35.826000+08:00","text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:36.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:02:39.183143+08:00","text":"現在請陳昭姿委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1238,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（12時46分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請石部長。"],["石部長崇良：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。記得上禮拜四我在質詢的時候也有特別提到食用油出現這樣的問題，我們當時還不是那麼清楚，覺得那是下游廠商南僑發現然後通報，結果今天看到的是南僑知道之後還是繼續製造、繼續販賣，所以我覺得整個系統真的都出現問題了。除了中聯油脂有這樣的問題之外，針對其他製造油脂的三大廠，你們目前查廠或者是檢驗的頻率，我覺得都要一致，因為影響消費者的程度真的是非常地嚴重。我想請教部長，從你們得知這個訊息之後，到現在也一個多禮拜的時間，你們到底做了什麼？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，針對中聯的油品，我們除了趕快去串聯出他所有的下游商品，讓資訊能夠公開、透明，讓所有的消費者知道外，當然對於發生什麼問題要搞清楚，才能夠去做我們之後的強化……"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們現在知道了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：所以我們回去把他從4月到6月底的所有樣本通通再重驗一遍，明天報告就會出來了，來釐清到底在哪個環節出了問題？還有沒有其他的批次有問題？這個是針對中聯的部分，我們做了這些事情。第二個，對於另外三家業者，我們也把他們找來，就我們發現到這些有可能的問題，要求強化他們的監測，所以他們現在開始採逐批檢驗，以確保市面上的產品是安全的。另外，我們也會處理的就是後市場的部分，會請衛生局除了下架之外，也加強後市場的檢驗……"],["黃委員秀芳：抽檢，是抽檢嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對，抽檢。大概就是做這些事。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我想請教部長，原本你們應該也是信任業者的自主管理……"],["石部長崇良：是，自主檢驗。"],["黃委員秀芳：結果現在出了這樣的問題，那你現在還相信……就是業者現在逐批檢驗的資料、檢驗的結果是怎樣，目前是怎麼給你們的？"],["石部長崇良：也跟委員說明，我們之前設計的是三級品管，一級就是他自主檢驗，他要定期去檢驗，自主檢驗的頻率……"],["黃委員秀芳：現在變逐批嘛。"],["石部長崇良：對，頻率還有檢驗抽樣的節點等等，我們現在會重新再檢討，這個是第一級的部分。第二級的話，應該是屬於所謂的第三方檢驗，他們也會送地方……"],["黃委員秀芳：也是逐批嗎？"],["石部長崇良：第三方檢驗是定期的，並不是逐批，逐批的是指他內部的第一個自主檢驗……"],["黃委員秀芳：自主管理是逐批。"],["石部長崇良：第二個是第三方檢驗，也就是外部檢驗。現在需要研議的是如何讓第三方的檢驗報告可以直接回到中央，目前因為前面的通報慢了，他們延遲通報，但事實上第三方檢驗是知道的，只是他讓報告回到業者那邊，業者就隱匿沒有報。如果第三方檢驗直接跟中央是連著的，或讓地方主管機關可以直接掌握到檢驗出來的第一個報告，知道有異常，這樣即便他不通報，我們也可以……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們也知道？"],["石部長崇良：也可以介入。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["石部長崇良：所以我們第二個要檢討的是，第三方檢驗的資訊流要直接串到地方主管機關……"],["黃委員秀芳：你們什麼時候可以做到？"],["石部長崇良：我們現在在研究做這件事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：需要多久時間？"],["石部長崇良：應該很快，而且我們至少可以先要求紙本通報，未來再採用系統通報，即資訊系統通報。至於紙本通報，只要一異常就要通報，就不需要透過業者了。換句話說，受委託檢驗的業者直接就要通報主管機關，這點我們近期就會做出檢討。","第三個，當然就是後市場檢驗，這是第三級。其實後市場這部分，我們過去確實也做了，這四年來做了兩百多件，驗出來的也都合標。在這次事件之後，我們先加強後市場的抽驗。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我覺得源頭管理是最重要的！畢竟油脂製造完之後會賣到下游，所以源頭是最重要的。"],["石部長崇良：針對源頭，即最上游的製造廠，到底這次問題是出在製程的哪個地方？還是原料問題？我們要先搞清楚，搞清楚之後才能知道是要加強原料查驗，抑或是製程的穩定問題？這樣才有辦法提出對策，來預防下一次的發生。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以要多久時間才可以確定到底是製程的問題，還是原料─黃豆的問題？"],["石部長崇良：應該一、兩個禮拜內就可以把問題釐清。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。食用油出現問題，會造成消費者很大的恐慌，畢竟每天每個人所吃的東西，多多少少都一定會有油，不論是炸的或炒菜什麼的，任何東西都一定會用到。因此消費者想知道的是，今天用的油到底安不安全？剛剛聆聽其他委員質詢時部長也有特別提到，目前市面上所有的油都是安全的？"],["石部長崇良：目前已經確認就是中聯這一批有問題的，現在都已經完成下架……"],["黃委員秀芳：其他的呢？"],["石部長崇良：現在是查到哪裡就會……因為現在已經擴大查驗了，所以只要一到查有問題，會立刻對外宣布。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以市面上所有的食用油，你們現在也都擴大去查驗？"],["石部長崇良：對，現在正在擴大查驗，畢竟中聯有很多批次，所以我們會全部擴大清查一遍，不是只針對南僑驗出有問題的批次……"],["黃委員秀芳：其他像大統益、台糖、長輝……"],["石部長崇良：就是加強監測。"],["黃委員秀芳：對於他們賣給下游廠商製造出來的這些食用油，你們會不會也去……"],["石部長崇良：我們接著就會驗這另外三家。"],["黃委員秀芳：我覺得應該要同步。"],["石部長崇良：對，會同步進行。"],["黃委員秀芳：應該要同步……"],["石部長崇良：我們先針對中聯，然後再針對其他三家……"],["黃委員秀芳：這次中聯的食用油出包，但大統益所生產的食用油其實比中聯還要多。"],["石部長崇良：所以現在已經先採逐批查驗，至於往前的部分，我們再回去抽它過去的批次。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["石部長崇良：現在往後的，都已經用逐批查驗的方式處理。"],["黃委員秀芳：針對市面上所有的食用油，我希望部長及署長要更積極趕快、儘快把有問題的油揪出來，看到底是原料的關係，或者是製程的關係。我覺得應該要儘速，不然會造成民眾的恐慌：現在到底要不要買？或者要買什麼牌子的油？甚至買的油上游就是中聯，所以還不是一樣？所以衛福部跟食藥署最重要的就是要讓所有的民眾能很放心，現在買的油是安全的，我吃到的東西是安全的！"],["石部長崇良：是、是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好不好？"],["石部長崇良：我們的目標就是這樣，所以才會持續擴大，一直在檢驗當中。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，上禮拜質詢時得知這件事是南僑發現的，結果後來才知道當南僑發現油脂有問題時，還是繼續生產、繼續賣，也沒有通報你們，對不對？就是一開始的時候。"],["石部長崇良：對，沒有通報。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒有通報。所以我那時候就懷疑，他們應該很早就知道了，可能因為油真的非常大量，多達1,300公噸，這麼多的油該怎麼辦？只好繼續賣、繼續製造，那時候我的猜測是這樣。既然發生這樣的問題，我希望衛福部跟食藥署應該儘快讓民眾安心。至於是不是有隱匿……都已經知道了也不通報，也不預防性下架，我想請教部長跟署長，這要怎麼辦？既然都已經知道了還不通報。"],["石部長崇良：所以我們除了先對中聯重罰之外，其他的則由地方政府再去了解。下游的這三家，也就是泰山、福懋和福壽何時得知？之後有沒有繼續販賣？如果還是繼續這樣，且有事實的出貨販賣，一樣會給予重罰！"],["黃委員秀芳：目前看起來是這樣。"],["石部長崇良：釐清楚之後就會……我們絕對毋枉毋縱！"],["黃委員秀芳：中聯油脂是泰山、福壽跟福懋三家所合資的，南僑在第一時間知道後，應該也會通報這三家，至少會知會一下。既然都知道了，卻都不通報，這真的要好好去查！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：衛福部和食藥署原本信任業者能自主管理，但經過這次事件，大家對於自主管理的信任都要打一個問號了！部長，未來對於自主管理這部分，我覺得你們真的不能再相信業者能自主管理了！"],["石部長崇良：對。對於不遵守要求的，當然重罰，不過我們會再建立外部監測，強化外部的監測機制。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。接下來不管是製程或黃豆原料出問題，假設是黃豆原料出問題，你們會啟動什麼樣的……譬如啟動查廠？或者到原料廠查廠，譬如到巴西，有可能這樣做嗎？或者你們要採取什麼樣的作為？"],["石部長崇良：其實黃豆進來的用途很多，不只是煉油。因此，就煉油部分來說，原料要加強管控，就會在原料的部分要求檢驗，而且不是只檢驗油品，當然，我們也會提供檢驗的方法。"],["黃委員秀芳：黃豆製品非常非常多，不是只有油。日常生活中很多吃的都是黃豆製品，比如早上吃的豆漿、豆腐。正因為黃豆製品真的非常多，萬一是黃豆出問題，除了對油脂有影響外，其他製品也會有影響嗎？"],["石部長崇良：過去黃豆會在邊境抽驗，主要抽驗的以農藥、黃麴毒素這類真的比較有影響的。至於這次出現的BaP是油脂所產生的，其管理模式在製造端，而邊境端則是針對黃豆本身的品質，後面則是在製程當中所可能產生的致癌物質管理，這兩件事情都要做。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想再請教，剛剛有提到市場抽驗，我希望衛福部食藥署能對此更公開，讓民眾可以隨時得知今天查到什麼？哪幾個產品是有問題的？我覺得應該要更公開，讓民眾能更了解。"],["石部長崇良：會。只要查驗一有問題，我們都會要求資訊公開，後面則會採取下架的措施。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來我想再請教一下，因為中聯油脂的市占率是40%嘛，其他三家則占30%，這是剛剛講的四大油脂公司，中聯油脂目前是停止生產，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教的是，中聯停止生產之後，我不知道它要停多久，可能要找到原因之後才能再恢復嘛，未來只有其他三家製造油脂，會不會有缺油的狀況？現在有一些畜牧業者擔心飼料會不會有影響，所以我想請教部長，目前中聯油脂是停產的，其他三家所生產出來的油脂足夠我們臺灣國人來使用嗎？"],["石部長崇良：因為它的市占率高啦，所以剩下這三家，我們會請他們務必要多增加產量，但是我們也會強化相關的監測。第二個，針對中聯的部分，我們也會儘快的把原因釐清，因為畢竟它的產量，特別是還有榨油之後的豆渣要作為飼料使用，有這個需求，所以我們會趕快釐清、確認原因並且將製程都改善完畢之後讓它復工，要等到這些都安全、沒有問題了，之後才會讓它復工。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們也希望未來不要有缺油的狀況，因為畢竟它的市占率有40%，如果現在它停產，等它整個安全之後、復產之後，會不會造成市場的一些波動，我希望部長針對市場端應該也要去監測會不會有缺油的狀況。"],["石部長崇良：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：農業部針對飼料的部分應該也要……因為有一些畜牧業者有這樣的反映，我想請教農業部，你們後續會啟動什麼樣的因應方式？"],["周副司長志勳：跟委員報告，禮拜一我們已經有找幾家業者來討論，其中有兩家會增加兩成的生產量；至於其他的部分，我們會用飼料配方，譬如像全豆、黃豆粉，還有玉米酒粕、玉米蛋白等等這些來替代，也會儘速把可以做的去做連結，讓我們的業者也可以知道。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。","部長，我再次重申，麻煩你們真的要儘速查明原因，趕快把這個狀況查明，讓國人能夠安心，好不好？"],["石部長崇良：好，沒問題，我們全力來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的質詢。","現在請陳昭姿委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}