{"error":false,"id":["170377"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170377,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170377","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T13:02:56+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T13:13:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210326871911c443c608c89d092fec882f4c2c552cdc9a7145f1027fd842694b5725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"13:02:56 - 13:13:16","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.56221875,"end":5.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.471593750000004,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.500343750000006,"end":101.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.45221875,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.64596875000001,"end":123.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.14659375000001,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.95221875000001,"end":130.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.62971875,"end":150.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.46784375000001,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.48846875,"end":150.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.31471875,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.30596875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.14096875,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.69346875000002,"end":164.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.77346875,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.08971875,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.11034375,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.46034375000002,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.06721875000002,"end":173.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.55659375000002,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.03284375,"end":182.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.11284375000002,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.17971875,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.91346875000002,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.38471875000002,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.28284375,"end":199.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.26534375,"end":215.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.57721875000001,"end":231.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.61096875,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.07034375,"end":236.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.30534375000002,"end":246.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.82784375000003,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.89534375000002,"end":247.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.73909375000002,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.69909375000003,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.72409375,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.35659375,"end":265.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.99784375,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.01471875000004,"end":267.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.61784375,"end":269.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.69346875,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.71034375,"end":269.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.36846875000003,"end":276.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.77721875000003,"end":274.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.19034375,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.54846875000004,"end":280.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.98096875000005,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.58846875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.14534375,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.47409375,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.09846875,"end":301.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2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再麻煩部長跟署長 江署長有請市部長 江署長"},{"start":11.138,"end":32.135,"text":"我知道你們今天很辛苦也很不好受但是畢竟一個一級致癌物出現在食用油裡面一級致癌物的意思就是確定會在人體引起癌症而且超標四倍這是很嚴重的事情事情已經過一星期了我心中還有很多疑問我想要請教現在衛福是不是可以跟國人說清楚第一個問題就是說中聯4月8號到10號"},{"start":37.679,"end":41.322,"text":"已經出貨了1300公噸但是他到4月13號才去送檢驗這是第一個問題為什麼可以先出貨再檢驗這是第一個問題那麼第二個問題他第一次檢驗交出來的我們看到的是1.6那為什麼當這個6月的時候出了問題"},{"start":58.737,"end":73.426,"text":"那南橋反應之後他把他是出貨流量哦很多人不理解就是當初出的貨的那一批的流量他撤出來的時候他跑到愛知味去做了他不是個認定的機關但是他是可以做的他是超標就變成4.68就是超標兩倍同一批哦"},{"start":76.508,"end":85.231,"text":"然後等到6月25號中年把同一批流樣同一批流樣送到這個再送去到SGS檢驗結果這次高達8.1是4倍好那我要請教的第二個問題說請問同一批的樣品為什麼從他覺得沒有問題然後變成兩倍高然後變成4倍高這是我第二個問題第三個問題"},{"start":101.596,"end":124.522,"text":"那就請問這個檢驗到底是樣品取樣有問題還是檢驗方法有問題這個要思考的第四個SGS怎麼檢驗的它是可以檢驗很多次它是一開始檢驗真的沒問題呢還是拼命檢驗很多次找到一個終於找到一個沒問題了然後就交出來了"},{"start":126.007,"end":135.635,"text":"有可能是這樣啊因為檢驗本來就不只做一次啊你有懷疑可以再做啊所以我現在有四個問題你今天應該是沒有辦法回答我對不對因為你沒有講過這個資料對嗎"},{"start":138.432,"end":162.129,"text":"有部分我們是當然這個檢驗的部分他是可以自驗有實驗室的因為我們要求一定的量可以先出貨再檢驗嗎可以先出貨再檢驗嗎第一個問題可以嗎我先賣出去了我才做檢驗可以嗎這個之前不行嘛要檢驗OK安全才出去對不對署長讓我稍微做說明因為整個的檢驗跟"},{"start":167.193,"end":184.705,"text":"它是在六個月內我們是規定的一定要驗所以它內部的其實是一劑一劑的但是我們在場裡上嘛你先賣掉了嘛啊我才檢驗說不是它是Random所以我們要確認它是不是同一批同一批對是不是同一批欸這是原則欸藥品跟食品都一樣欸你不是拿南橋的那個東西拿去做檢驗是拿很多人不懂是源頭的東西丟在那邊我們必須拿當時製造的同一批出來做檢驗這才叫檢驗對報告委員我們這個部分其實"},{"start":197.353,"end":202.299,"text":"沒有逐批檢驗所以後續的檢調已經介入說那個部分其實是有的所以為什麼我檢出來為什麼 投一批東西一次說沒有一次兩倍 一次四倍嘛那第三個就是說那一定我認為檢測有問題嘛要去檢 你們要去了解這個部分嘛到底是取樣"},{"start":216.096,"end":229.782,"text":"有問題還是取樣那誰來做啊你又取樣你又檢驗嗎還是廠商取樣然後那個檢驗室去檢驗呢這個問題學問很多耶然後第四個對不對那可以檢驗很多次啊他是不是好不容易等到一次正常的"},{"start":231.046,"end":239.856,"text":"第三個部分因為它是連續製程到底在哪一點是不確定的那第四個SGS的時候因為這是認證的實驗室對於他們整個的認證的規則其實是我們目前是能夠接受所以我們會去確認它當初是怎麼樣"},{"start":247.865,"end":259.832,"text":"所以這四個問題很重要那現在大家已經提到這個大豆原料那我在想說那我請問中聯油只進入這個他拿到大豆原料以後他在製作大豆沙拉油之前檢驗過嗎"},{"start":262.756,"end":291.688,"text":"他為什麼不檢驗有沒有檢驗有沒有資料他買東西要來賣歷史的資料裡面他是有檢驗他有檢驗不是每一批有檢驗但是有看到他有檢驗的那過去的檢驗我們看到的是有看到報告好那第一個我先了解他有沒有檢驗那4月13號我剛剛強調嘛我覺得先出貨再檢驗是不沒道理的但是他這一批13號出去的這個真的到底是沒有驗出來還是一直驗到沒有問題他才把報告寫出來呢"},{"start":293.618,"end":303.76,"text":"我可以懷疑嘛 我可以合理懷疑嘛後續的話 我們看到報告也需要檢調來協助我們是不是好不容易等到一次可以見人拿出來嘛對不對 這個就是說到底誰在隱匿 誰在說謊 誰在造假這個部分 我想就這個部分請你給我一份報告 可以吧 我們可以了解吧"},{"start":315.703,"end":330.838,"text":"那這個我要跟在部分講就是說當時1300公噸的流向署長您談了一個最終濃度然後後來你又說20%含量做界限管理但是我還是請你們我再提醒一下你這個食安法"},{"start":331.839,"end":346.413,"text":"麻煩你們看時長碼頭影片上第15條第一項第三款食品或食品添加物有下滅形質後面根本就不能再做了所以它不是含量多少的問題不得製造加工調配等等等等第三項就是有毒它當然有毒啊"},{"start":347.574,"end":374.57,"text":"Benzopyrine就是一級致癌物啊我引用這個法是專家說的它在衛生安全標準裡面它的製程各方面有一個容許的量是2ppb那我們在想說就算你認為這個過程當中也許產生的東西無害那我們三個人都是這個醫學教育體系出身的我來問一下一個藥品一個藥品在還沒有確定它完全安全之前你要假設它是不安全的"},{"start":375.811,"end":385.805,"text":"還是一個藥品在沒有經過完全的這個臨床試驗證實他不安全的我們就認為他是安全這個邏輯非常的重要所以當你們認為20%以下可能沒有問題的時候你們忘掉了我們在學校學的東西這樣講可以接受嗎"},{"start":392.822,"end":407.742,"text":"跟委員說明其實製藥過程也有類似的情形他也沒有做到逐批檢驗啦一樣的道理他也都是檢驗方法是一個我剛剛在講那個重要的觀念必要不進行證實他安全之前你要當作他不安全嘛對不對"},{"start":408.203,"end":429.649,"text":"那這個是一個叫做這個呢是在談的是那個這個叫做容許標準我現在進來另外一個邏輯嘛因為你們當時覺得二十稀釋之後就沒問題嘛但是這個是一個思考而已嘛但是我說要很小心嘛就是在這個容許量的概念我們現在的管理上有兩種一種叫零減粗那我覺得這個重點是檢驗"},{"start":435.111,"end":440.134,"text":"檢驗因為三道嘛你如果自主檢驗然後這個委外檢驗然後這個再加上最後抽驗那如果前面兩道目前是破功所以是不是就是說衛福部將來是不是你這個後面的那個抽驗你要稍微改變要提前去做一些介入剛剛請說委員也提到嘛那個三道把關但是還是出問題嘛所以第四到第三把關是在政府機關啦所以是不是也要想想看這個地方怎麼改變啦"},{"start":461.465,"end":489.503,"text":"然後現在你們這個1300公噸目前查到43公噸43公噸沒錯是佔3.3%你我都有基本的統計學基礎嘛小於5%就是好像沒有嘛就是沒查到嘛都沒有追回來嘛才百分之三百一百才找回3就是沒有所以真的是已經遍佈全國了啦那我要再談一件事說剛剛有委員問到溯源你知道食安的最重要精神是什麼呢可溯源"},{"start":491.397,"end":501.604,"text":"為什麼要有標章 為什麼台黨就要標章你如果沒辦法溯源的話那這個慈安的精神就不見了最後我要講就是說南橋啦部長你講很快的啦我先跟你講 南橋我一個都不認識我也不知道他是誰開的但是南橋這次你強調說中聯要法那南橋這個基本上其實是這樣子因為他發現這個檢疫有問題的時候他"},{"start":515.214,"end":528.172,"text":"他理論上要跟你們報告我知道但是他是先報告了他的那個上游因為這樣子就是說如果最後證實不是因為他非常有問題證實不是的話他在商業上有法律責任所以他報告給這個扶壽"},{"start":531.616,"end":535.939,"text":"那其實真正拖延的我認為啦這是我的觀點真正拖延的是福壽跟中聯啦不然你如果說你的處罰我不是說他不能處罰你如果這樣子的話等於是放個吹哨者你要他承擔所有的責任啊因為以前說的那個"},{"start":547.887,"end":572.026,"text":"跟他說好像大家都這個要罰這個要罰那以後是不是寒蟬效應關這我不要講這次如果不是南橋出來我跟你講我們都不知道吃多久了我也不相信只有四月才有發生我也已經不再相信了好嗎就是說有關這個但是呢他驗出來有問題的時候他如何看待他自己的產品有沒有繼續銷售這個事情還是需要剛剛我提到就是說因為在商業責任這個我完全不認識"},{"start":577.671,"end":592.476,"text":"但他馬上報告他上游廠商嘛那讓他們再去做確認嘛那這個上游廠商為什麼就放那麼久我的意思說輕重不依啦就是你在處罰就是但是他如何去處理他的產品這個是重點但今天不是他"},{"start":593.436,"end":616.82,"text":"你會知道這件事嗎 今天會發我們會在我們社群網站讀嗎但是每一個業者在對他販賣的產品他都是有責任的所以他是在販賣所以他如果驗出有問題的時候那他怎麼去處理他的商品這個是需要今天不是這個事情出來我們都不會知道 以為都沒事兩位署長請思考一下我今天這個質詢的一些重點謝謝兩位署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}