{"error":false,"id":["170377"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170377,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170377","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T13:02:56+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T13:13:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210326871911c443c608c89d092fec882f4c2c552cdc9a7145f1027fd842694b5725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"13:02:56 - 13:13:16","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":2.56221875,"end":5.58284375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":5.75159375,"end":7.25346875,"speaker_score":0.789},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":9.51471875,"end":42.10034375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":9.73409375,"end":10.20659375,"speaker_score":0.789},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":42.471593750000004,"end":47.01096875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":47.500343750000006,"end":101.23034375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":101.50034375000001,"end":109.36409375000001,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":109.54971875000001,"end":111.64221875000001,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":112.45221875,"end":114.20721875000001,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":114.64596875000001,"end":123.33659375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":124.14659375000001,"end":124.87221875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":125.95221875000001,"end":130.50846875000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":131.08221875,"end":136.88721875000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":137.62971875,"end":150.28596875000002,"speaker_score":0.789},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":147.46784375000001,"end":156.68159375000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":150.48846875,"end":150.85971875,"speaker_score":0.789},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":155.31471875,"end":156.39471875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":157.30596875,"end":159.97221875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":160.14096875,"end":162.68909375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":161.69346875000002,"end":164.27534375000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":162.77346875,"end":163.70159375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":164.08971875,"end":166.55346875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":167.11034375,"end":167.90346875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":168.46034375000002,"end":174.23159375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":173.06721875000002,"end":173.37096875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":173.55659375000002,"end":177.52221875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":177.03284375,"end":182.23034375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":178.11284375000002,"end":180.98159375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":182.17971875,"end":194.58284375000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":184.91346875000002,"end":185.45346875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":193.38471875000002,"end":202.88534375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":197.28284375,"end":199.72971875000002,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":201.26534375,"end":215.60909375,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":215.91284375,"end":229.96971875000003,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"陳委員昭姿","start":230.57721875000001,"end":231.08346875,"speaker_score":0.963},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"姜署長至剛","start":230.61096875,"end":246.8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江署長"},{"start":11.138,"end":32.135,"text":"我知道你們今天很辛苦也很不好受但是畢竟一個一級致癌物出現在食用油裡面一級致癌物的意思就是確定會在人體引起癌症而且超標四倍這是很嚴重的事情事情已經過一星期了我心中還有很多疑問我想要請教現在衛福是不是可以跟國人說清楚第一個問題就是說中聯4月8號到10號"},{"start":37.679,"end":41.322,"text":"已經出貨了1300公噸但是他到4月13號才去送檢驗這是第一個問題為什麼可以先出貨再檢驗這是第一個問題那麼第二個問題他第一次檢驗交出來的我們看到的是1.6那為什麼當這個6月的時候出了問題"},{"start":58.737,"end":73.426,"text":"那南橋反應之後他把他是出貨流量哦很多人不理解就是當初出的貨的那一批的流量他撤出來的時候他跑到愛知味去做了他不是個認定的機關但是他是可以做的他是超標就變成4.68就是超標兩倍同一批哦"},{"start":76.508,"end":85.231,"text":"然後等到6月25號中年把同一批流樣同一批流樣送到這個再送去到SGS檢驗結果這次高達8.1是4倍好那我要請教的第二個問題說請問同一批的樣品為什麼從他覺得沒有問題然後變成兩倍高然後變成4倍高這是我第二個問題第三個問題"},{"start":101.596,"end":124.522,"text":"那就請問這個檢驗到底是樣品取樣有問題還是檢驗方法有問題這個要思考的第四個SGS怎麼檢驗的它是可以檢驗很多次它是一開始檢驗真的沒問題呢還是拼命檢驗很多次找到一個終於找到一個沒問題了然後就交出來了"},{"start":126.007,"end":135.635,"text":"有可能是這樣啊因為檢驗本來就不只做一次啊你有懷疑可以再做啊所以我現在有四個問題你今天應該是沒有辦法回答我對不對因為你沒有講過這個資料對嗎"},{"start":138.432,"end":162.129,"text":"有部分我們是當然這個檢驗的部分他是可以自驗有實驗室的因為我們要求一定的量可以先出貨再檢驗嗎可以先出貨再檢驗嗎第一個問題可以嗎我先賣出去了我才做檢驗可以嗎這個之前不行嘛要檢驗OK安全才出去對不對署長讓我稍微做說明因為整個的檢驗跟"},{"start":167.193,"end":184.705,"text":"它是在六個月內我們是規定的一定要驗所以它內部的其實是一劑一劑的但是我們在場裡上嘛你先賣掉了嘛啊我才檢驗說不是它是Random所以我們要確認它是不是同一批同一批對是不是同一批欸這是原則欸藥品跟食品都一樣欸你不是拿南橋的那個東西拿去做檢驗是拿很多人不懂是源頭的東西丟在那邊我們必須拿當時製造的同一批出來做檢驗這才叫檢驗對報告委員我們這個部分其實"},{"start":197.353,"end":202.299,"text":"沒有逐批檢驗所以後續的檢調已經介入說那個部分其實是有的所以為什麼我檢出來為什麼 投一批東西一次說沒有一次兩倍 一次四倍嘛那第三個就是說那一定我認為檢測有問題嘛要去檢 你們要去了解這個部分嘛到底是取樣"},{"start":216.096,"end":229.782,"text":"有問題還是取樣那誰來做啊你又取樣你又檢驗嗎還是廠商取樣然後那個檢驗室去檢驗呢這個問題學問很多耶然後第四個對不對那可以檢驗很多次啊他是不是好不容易等到一次正常的"},{"start":231.046,"end":239.856,"text":"第三個部分因為它是連續製程到底在哪一點是不確定的那第四個SGS的時候因為這是認證的實驗室對於他們整個的認證的規則其實是我們目前是能夠接受所以我們會去確認它當初是怎麼樣"},{"start":247.865,"end":259.832,"text":"所以這四個問題很重要那現在大家已經提到這個大豆原料那我在想說那我請問中聯油只進入這個他拿到大豆原料以後他在製作大豆沙拉油之前檢驗過嗎"},{"start":262.756,"end":291.688,"text":"他為什麼不檢驗有沒有檢驗有沒有資料他買東西要來賣歷史的資料裡面他是有檢驗他有檢驗不是每一批有檢驗但是有看到他有檢驗的那過去的檢驗我們看到的是有看到報告好那第一個我先了解他有沒有檢驗那4月13號我剛剛強調嘛我覺得先出貨再檢驗是不沒道理的但是他這一批13號出去的這個真的到底是沒有驗出來還是一直驗到沒有問題他才把報告寫出來呢"},{"start":293.618,"end":303.76,"text":"我可以懷疑嘛 我可以合理懷疑嘛後續的話 我們看到報告也需要檢調來協助我們是不是好不容易等到一次可以見人拿出來嘛對不對 這個就是說到底誰在隱匿 誰在說謊 誰在造假這個部分 我想就這個部分請你給我一份報告 可以吧 我們可以了解吧"},{"start":315.703,"end":330.838,"text":"那這個我要跟在部分講就是說當時1300公噸的流向署長您談了一個最終濃度然後後來你又說20%含量做界限管理但是我還是請你們我再提醒一下你這個食安法"},{"start":331.839,"end":346.413,"text":"麻煩你們看時長碼頭影片上第15條第一項第三款食品或食品添加物有下滅形質後面根本就不能再做了所以它不是含量多少的問題不得製造加工調配等等等等第三項就是有毒它當然有毒啊"},{"start":347.574,"end":374.57,"text":"Benzopyrine就是一級致癌物啊我引用這個法是專家說的它在衛生安全標準裡面它的製程各方面有一個容許的量是2ppb那我們在想說就算你認為這個過程當中也許產生的東西無害那我們三個人都是這個醫學教育體系出身的我來問一下一個藥品一個藥品在還沒有確定它完全安全之前你要假設它是不安全的"},{"start":375.811,"end":385.805,"text":"還是一個藥品在沒有經過完全的這個臨床試驗證實他不安全的我們就認為他是安全這個邏輯非常的重要所以當你們認為20%以下可能沒有問題的時候你們忘掉了我們在學校學的東西這樣講可以接受嗎"},{"start":392.822,"end":407.742,"text":"跟委員說明其實製藥過程也有類似的情形他也沒有做到逐批檢驗啦一樣的道理他也都是檢驗方法是一個我剛剛在講那個重要的觀念必要不進行證實他安全之前你要當作他不安全嘛對不對"},{"start":408.203,"end":429.649,"text":"那這個是一個叫做這個呢是在談的是那個這個叫做容許標準我現在進來另外一個邏輯嘛因為你們當時覺得二十稀釋之後就沒問題嘛但是這個是一個思考而已嘛但是我說要很小心嘛就是在這個容許量的概念我們現在的管理上有兩種一種叫零減粗那我覺得這個重點是檢驗"},{"start":435.111,"end":440.134,"text":"檢驗因為三道嘛你如果自主檢驗然後這個委外檢驗然後這個再加上最後抽驗那如果前面兩道目前是破功所以是不是就是說衛福部將來是不是你這個後面的那個抽驗你要稍微改變要提前去做一些介入剛剛請說委員也提到嘛那個三道把關但是還是出問題嘛所以第四到第三把關是在政府機關啦所以是不是也要想想看這個地方怎麼改變啦"},{"start":461.465,"end":489.503,"text":"然後現在你們這個1300公噸目前查到43公噸43公噸沒錯是佔3.3%你我都有基本的統計學基礎嘛小於5%就是好像沒有嘛就是沒查到嘛都沒有追回來嘛才百分之三百一百才找回3就是沒有所以真的是已經遍佈全國了啦那我要再談一件事說剛剛有委員問到溯源你知道食安的最重要精神是什麼呢可溯源"},{"start":491.397,"end":501.604,"text":"為什麼要有標章 為什麼台黨就要標章你如果沒辦法溯源的話那這個慈安的精神就不見了最後我要講就是說南橋啦部長你講很快的啦我先跟你講 南橋我一個都不認識我也不知道他是誰開的但是南橋這次你強調說中聯要法那南橋這個基本上其實是這樣子因為他發現這個檢疫有問題的時候他"},{"start":515.214,"end":528.172,"text":"他理論上要跟你們報告我知道但是他是先報告了他的那個上游因為這樣子就是說如果最後證實不是因為他非常有問題證實不是的話他在商業上有法律責任所以他報告給這個扶壽"},{"start":531.616,"end":535.939,"text":"那其實真正拖延的我認為啦這是我的觀點真正拖延的是福壽跟中聯啦不然你如果說你的處罰我不是說他不能處罰你如果這樣子的話等於是放個吹哨者你要他承擔所有的責任啊因為以前說的那個"},{"start":547.887,"end":572.026,"text":"跟他說好像大家都這個要罰這個要罰那以後是不是寒蟬效應關這我不要講這次如果不是南橋出來我跟你講我們都不知道吃多久了我也不相信只有四月才有發生我也已經不再相信了好嗎就是說有關這個但是呢他驗出來有問題的時候他如何看待他自己的產品有沒有繼續銷售這個事情還是需要剛剛我提到就是說因為在商業責任這個我完全不認識"},{"start":577.671,"end":592.476,"text":"但他馬上報告他上游廠商嘛那讓他們再去做確認嘛那這個上游廠商為什麼就放那麼久我的意思說輕重不依啦就是你在處罰就是但是他如何去處理他的產品這個是重點但今天不是他"},{"start":593.436,"end":616.82,"text":"你會知道這件事嗎 今天會發我們會在我們社群網站讀嗎但是每一個業者在對他販賣的產品他都是有責任的所以他是在販賣所以他如果驗出有問題的時候那他怎麼去處理他的商品這個是需要今天不是這個事情出來我們都不會知道 以為都沒事兩位署長請思考一下我今天這個質詢的一些重點謝謝兩位署長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:02:58.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:00.974000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，再麻煩部長跟姜署長。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:00.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:01.974000+08:00","text":"請石部長跟姜署長。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:01.974000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:02.974000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:02.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:27.714000+08:00","text":"部長、署長，我知道你們今天很辛苦，也很不好受，但畢竟是一級致癌物出現在食用油裡面，一級致癌物的意思就是確定會在人體引起癌症，而且檢驗結果是超標4倍，這是很嚴重的事情，事情已經過一星期了，我心中還有很多疑問想來請教，看看衛福部是不是可以跟國人說清楚。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:27.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:35.220000+08:00","text":"第一個問題，中聯4月8號到10號已經出貨了1,300公噸，但是到4月13號才去送檢驗，這是第一個問題，為什麼可以先出貨再檢驗？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:35.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:03:35.961000+08:00","text":"這是第一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:03:36.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:09.386000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，第一次檢驗的結果，我們看到的是1.6，為什麼6月的時候出了問題，在南僑反映之後，它把它的出貨留樣拿去檢驗，很多人不理解，就是當初出貨的那一批留樣，它把留樣送到愛之味去做檢驗，雖然它不是一個認定的機關，但是它是可以做的，檢驗結果是超標，變成4.68，超標了2倍，同一批喔！","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:12.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:18.090000+08:00","text":"然後到6月25號，中聯再把同批留樣送到SGS檢驗，這次的結果高達8.1，超標4倍。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:18.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:20.731000+08:00","text":"我要請教的第二個問題，請問同一批的樣品為什麼從覺得沒有問題，然後變成2倍高、又變成4倍高？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:20.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:21.151000+08:00","text":"這是我的第二個問題。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:21.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:45.898000+08:00","text":"第三個問題，請問這個檢驗到底是樣品的取樣有問題，還是檢驗方法有問題？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:45.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:46.258000+08:00","text":"這個要思考。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:46.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:04:49.959000+08:00","text":"第四個問題，SGS怎麼檢驗的？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:04:51.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:00.502000+08:00","text":"因為可以檢驗很多次，它是一開始檢驗真的沒問題，還是拼命檢驗很多次，終於找到一個沒問題的，然後就交出來了？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:02.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:06.351000+08:00","text":"有可能是這樣啊，因為檢驗本來就可以不只做一次，有懷疑就可以再做啊。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:07.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:11.094000+08:00","text":"所以我現在有四個問題，你今天應該是沒有辦法回答我，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:11.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:11.635000+08:00","text":"因為你沒有掌握這個資料，對嗎？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:14.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:24.119000+08:00","text":"好，有部分我們是……當然，有關檢驗的部分，它是可以自驗，有實驗室自驗，因為我們要求一定的量……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:24.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:25.119000+08:00","text":"慢慢一個一個的來……","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:25.119000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:26.119000+08:00","text":"一個是自驗，一個是送……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:24.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:26.521000+08:00","text":"可以先出貨再檢驗嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:27.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:29.063000+08:00","text":"這是第一個問題，可以嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:29.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:31.504000+08:00","text":"我先賣出去了才做檢驗，可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:31.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:31.725000+08:00","text":"這個之前沒有……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:31.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:32.385000+08:00","text":"不行嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:33.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:36.648000+08:00","text":"要檢驗OK、安全才能出去，對不對？署長？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:36.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:37.829000+08:00","text":"委員，讓我稍微做說明……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:37.829000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:38.829000+08:00","text":"不用太……，因為我也不好意思花大家太多時間。","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:37.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:49.717000+08:00","text":"因為整個檢驗跟……是在6個月內，我們規定一定要驗，所以它內部其實是一劑一劑的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:49.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:52.739000+08:00","text":"但是我們以常理來講嘛，你已經先賣掉了嘛，才檢驗……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:53.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:56.302000+08:00","text":"它是random，所以我們要確認是不是同一批。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:56.442000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:56.702000+08:00","text":"同一批……","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:57.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:57.963000+08:00","text":"對，是不是同一批。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:57.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:58.223000+08:00","text":"這是原則耶！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:58.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:05:58.563000+08:00","text":"藥品跟食品都一樣耶！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:05:58.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:00.244000+08:00","text":"你不是拿南僑的那個東西去做檢驗，很多人不懂，是源頭的東西丟在那邊，我們必須拿當時製造的同一批出來做檢驗，這才叫檢驗。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:00.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:13.554000+08:00","text":"對，報告委員，我們對於這個部分其實沒有逐批檢驗……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:13.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:14.554000+08:00","text":"為什麼檢驗結果不一樣？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:14.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:15.554000+08:00","text":"3次都不一樣！","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:13.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:14.174000+08:00","text":"所以後續檢調已經介入說那個部分其實是有的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:14.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:16.037000+08:00","text":"好，那為什麼同一批東西的檢驗結果，一次是沒有、一次是超標2倍、一次是超標4倍？","quality":0.531},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:16.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:33.837000+08:00","text":"第三個，我認為檢測有問題嘛，你們要去了解這個部分是不是取樣有問題，取樣是誰來做的？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:34.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:35.998000+08:00","text":"你又取樣又檢驗嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:35.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:38.599000+08:00","text":"還是廠商取樣，然後檢驗室去檢驗呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:38.739000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:40.700000+08:00","text":"這個部分學問很多耶！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:41.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:45.762000+08:00","text":"第四個，因為可以檢驗很多次，是不是好不容易等到一次正常的才公布？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:47.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:51.171000+08:00","text":"報告委員，第三個部分，因為它是連續製程，到底在哪一點是不確定的。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:51.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:55.216000+08:00","text":"第四個，送到SGS的時候，因為這是認證的實驗室，對於他們整個的認證規則，我們目前是能夠接受的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:55.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:56.216000+08:00","text":"但是我們想知道嘛，出事了，我剛剛問你的問題都是合理懷疑嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:06:55.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:06:55.856000+08:00","text":"所以我們會去確認它當初是怎麼樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:03.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:15.832000+08:00","text":"所以這四個問題很重要，現在大家已經提到大豆原料，我再請問，中聯油脂拿到大豆原料以後，它在製作大豆沙拉油之前有檢驗過嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:19.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:19.276000+08:00","text":"它為什麼不檢驗？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:19.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:19.636000+08:00","text":"有沒有檢驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:19.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:20.717000+08:00","text":"有沒有資料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:20.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:22.698000+08:00","text":"它歷史的資料……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:22.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:23.958000+08:00","text":"它買東西要來賣！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:23.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:25.739000+08:00","text":"歷史的資料裡面它是有檢驗的。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:25.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:26.439000+08:00","text":"它有檢驗？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:26.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:29.961000+08:00","text":"不是每一批有檢驗，但是有看到它有檢驗，過去的檢驗……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:29.961000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:30.961000+08:00","text":"你有看到有檢驗？","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:29.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:31.741000+08:00","text":"我們有看到報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:32.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:33.762000+08:00","text":"好，第一個我要先了解它有沒有檢驗。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:33.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:34.762000+08:00","text":"它有，部分的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:33.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:47.668000+08:00","text":"4月13號，我剛剛強調了嘛，我覺得先出貨再檢驗是沒道理的，但是這一批13號出去的，是真的沒有驗出來還是一直驗到沒有問題才把報告寫出來呢？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:49.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:51.238000+08:00","text":"我可以懷疑嘛，我可以合理懷疑嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:51.238000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:52.238000+08:00","text":"你要去查啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:51.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:53.339000+08:00","text":"這部分我們有看到報告，後續的話，我們看到報告也需要檢調來協助我們。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:53.339000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:54.339000+08:00","text":"檢驗過不可以隱藏喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:53.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:56.060000+08:00","text":"它到底檢驗了幾次，是不是好不容易等到一次可以見人的才拿出來？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:56.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:56.260000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:56.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:57.180000+08:00","text":"到底誰在隱匿、誰在說謊、誰在造假？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:57.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:59.040000+08:00","text":"就這個部分，請你給我一份報告，可以吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:07:59.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:07:59.740000+08:00","text":"我們可以了解吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:12.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:08:23.555000+08:00","text":"我要再講的是當時1,300公噸的流向，署長，您談了一個最終濃度，後來你又說以20%的含量為界線來做管理。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:24.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:08:47.176000+08:00","text":"但我要再提醒你有關食安法的規定，投影片上有寫出食安法第十五條第一項第三款的規定，食品或食品添加物有下列情形，後面根本就不能再做了，所以不是含量多少的問題，而是有這樣的情形就不得製造、加工、調配等等，第三款就是「有毒」，當然有毒啊，Benzopyrene就是一級致癌物啊！","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:47.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:08:48.477000+08:00","text":"報告委員，它是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:48.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:08:49.557000+08:00","text":"我是引用這個法，並不是瞎說的……","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:49.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:08:53.940000+08:00","text":"在衛生安全標準裡面，它的製程等各方面有一個容許的量，是2 ppb。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:08:54.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:17.379000+08:00","text":"我們在想說，就算你認為在這個過程當中產生的東西也許無害，但我們三個人都是醫學教育體系出身的，我來問一下，一個藥品在還沒有確定完全安全之前，你要假設它是不安全的，還是一個藥品在沒有經過完全的臨床試驗證實是不安全的，我們就認為它是安全的？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:18.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:21.805000+08:00","text":"這個邏輯非常重要，所以當你們認為20%以下可能沒有問題的時候，你們忘掉了我們在學校學的東西，這樣講可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:28.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:36.432000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，其實製藥過程也有類似的情形，也沒有做到逐批檢驗啦，一樣的道理，也都是simply，並不是這樣……","quality":0.766},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:37.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:43.742000+08:00","text":"檢驗方法是一個，我剛剛在講那個重要的觀念，在你還沒有證實它安全之前，你要當作它不安全嘛，對不對？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:44.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:45.964000+08:00","text":"這是一個叫做……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:45.964000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:47.944000+08:00","text":"我們在講alpha error、beta error，就是在講這件事啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:47.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:09:53.466000+08:00","text":"這個在談的是容許標準啦，它不是有毒啦！","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:09:53.846000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:03.009000+08:00","text":"你說的這個我剛剛已經說過了，我現在是進入另外一個邏輯嘛，因為你們當時覺得20在稀釋之後就沒問題嘛，但這是一個思考而已嘛，我說要很小心，我今天提出這個問題……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:03.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:04.069000+08:00","text":"那是容許量的概念！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:04.069000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:05.069000+08:00","text":"OK嘛，我今天跟你談是就事論事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:04.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:05.149000+08:00","text":"我們現在的管理上有兩種，一種叫零檢出，一種叫容許量。","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:05.369000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:16.114000+08:00","text":"我覺得這次的重點是檢驗，因為檢驗有三道嘛，包括自主檢驗、委外檢驗，然後再加上抽驗，如果前面兩道……目前是破功，所以衛福部將來是不是針對後面的抽驗要稍微改變，要提前去做一些介入，剛剛許多委員也提到了，雖然有三道把關，但還是出問題了嘛，第三道把關是在政府機關，所以是不是也要想想看這個地方要怎麼改變。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:37.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:10:58.338000+08:00","text":"現在這1,300公噸，目前回收約43公噸，占3.3%，你我都有基本的統計學基礎，小於5%就幾乎是沒有嘛，等於沒查到、都沒有追回來嘛，才3.3%，就是沒有嘛，所以真的是已經遍布全國了啦！","quality":0.817},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:10:59.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:04.382000+08:00","text":"我要再談一件事，剛才也有委員問到溯源，你知道食安最重要的精神是什麼？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:05.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:05.483000+08:00","text":"可溯源啦！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:07.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:07.998000+08:00","text":"為什麼要有標章？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:08.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:09.479000+08:00","text":"為什麼台糖的豬肉要標章？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:10.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:14.282000+08:00","text":"如果沒辦法溯源的話，這個食安的精神就不見了！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:14.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:44.172000+08:00","text":"最後我要講的就是南僑，部長，你說很快，我先跟你說，南僑我一個都不認識，我也不知道它是誰開的，但是南僑這一次……你強調中聯要罰，而南僑基本上是這樣的，因為它發現檢驗有問題的時候，理論上要跟你們報告，我知道，但是它先報告了它的上游，如果最後證實不是，因為它發現有問題，證實不是的話，它在商業上有法律責任喔，所以它報告給福壽嘛！","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:47.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:49.958000+08:00","text":"其實真正拖延的，我認為啦，這是我的觀點，真正拖延的是福壽跟中聯啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:50.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:11:51.739000+08:00","text":"如果你的處罰，我不是說它不能處罰，但你如果這樣做的話，等於是要求吹哨者要承擔所有的責任啊！","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:11:51.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:10.653000+08:00","text":"你昨天說的那句話，好像這個要罰那個要罰，以後是不是會有寒蟬效應，乾脆都不要講了。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:10.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:18.519000+08:00","text":"這次如果不是南僑出來，我跟你講，我們都不知道吃多久了，我也不相信只有4月才發生，我也已經不再相信了，好嗎？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:18.519000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:20.400000+08:00","text":"就是有關南僑的部分，我要提醒你。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:20.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:26.906000+08:00","text":"對，但是它驗出來有問題的時候，它如何看待它自己的產品，有沒有繼續銷售這個事情還是需要……","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:27.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:27.566000+08:00","text":"我同意，我同意你談這一點，但是剛剛我提到的，因為在商業責任……","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:27.566000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:28.566000+08:00","text":"還是有責任啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:27.726000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:40.773000+08:00","text":"南僑我完全不認識，但是它馬上報告上游廠商嘛，讓他們再去做確認嘛，這個上游廠商為什麼放那麼久？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:41.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:44.214000+08:00","text":"我的意思是說輕重不一啦，就是說你在處罰的時候是輕重不一啦……","quality":0.593},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:44.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:47.715000+08:00","text":"但是它如何去處理它的產品，這個是重點。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:47.715000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:50.516000+08:00","text":"但今天如果不是它，你會知道這件事嗎？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:50.656000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:51.816000+08:00","text":"我們會知道我們吃了這麼多的毒嗎？","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:51.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:57.477000+08:00","text":"對，但是每個業者對於自己販賣的產品都是有責任的，所以它是在販賣……","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:57.477000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:12:58.477000+08:00","text":"是，我沒有否定這件事。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:12:57.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:04.639000+08:00","text":"所以如果驗出有問題的時候，它怎麼去處理它的商品是需要檢討。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:04.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:07.919000+08:00","text":"輕重拿捏一下，今天如果不是這個事情出來，我們都不會知道，以為都沒事，好嗎？","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"陳委員昭姿","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:08.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:12.320000+08:00","text":"兩位首長請思考一下我今天質詢的一些重點，謝謝，謝謝兩位署長，謝謝主席。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:12.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:12.820000+08:00","text":"謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:13.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:15.891429+08:00","text":"現在休息，1點45分再開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:16.191429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:17.334286+08:00","text":"休息（13時13分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:17.634286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:19.348571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（13時45分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:19.648571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:21.362857+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:13:21.662857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:13:23.948571+08:00","text":"請劉建國委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1322,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（13時2分）謝謝主席，再麻煩部長跟姜署長。"],["主席：請石部長跟姜署長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長、署長，我知道你們今天很辛苦，也很不好受，但畢竟是一級致癌物出現在食用油裡面，一級致癌物的意思就是確定會在人體引起癌症，而且檢驗結果是超標4倍，這是很嚴重的事情，事情已經過一星期了，我心中還有很多疑問想來請教，看看衛福部是不是可以跟國人說清楚。","第一個問題，中聯4月8號到10號已經出貨了1,300公噸，但是到4月13號才去送檢驗，這是第一個問題，為什麼可以先出貨再檢驗？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，第一次檢驗的結果，我們看到的是1.6，為什麼6月的時候出了問題，在南僑反映之後，它把它的出貨留樣拿去檢驗，很多人不理解，就是當初出貨的那一批留樣，它把留樣送到愛之味去做檢驗，雖然它不是一個認定的機關，但是它是可以做的，檢驗結果是超標，變成4.68，超標了2倍，同一批喔！然後到6月25號，中聯再把同批留樣送到SGS檢驗，這次的結果高達8.1，超標4倍。我要請教的第二個問題，請問同一批的樣品為什麼從覺得沒有問題，然後變成2倍高、又變成4倍高？這是我的第二個問題。","第三個問題，請問這個檢驗到底是樣品的取樣有問題，還是檢驗方法有問題？這個要思考。","第四個問題，SGS怎麼檢驗的？因為可以檢驗很多次，它是一開始檢驗真的沒問題，還是拼命檢驗很多次，終於找到一個沒問題的，然後就交出來了？有可能是這樣啊，因為檢驗本來就可以不只做一次，有懷疑就可以再做啊。","所以我現在有四個問題，你今天應該是沒有辦法回答我，對不對？因為你沒有掌握這個資料，對嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好，有部分我們是……當然，有關檢驗的部分，它是可以自驗，有實驗室自驗，因為我們要求一定的量……"],["陳委員昭姿：慢慢一個一個的來……"],["石部長崇良：一個是自驗，一個是送……"],["陳委員昭姿：可以先出貨再檢驗嗎？這是第一個問題，可以嗎？我先賣出去了才做檢驗，可以嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這個之前沒有……"],["陳委員昭姿：不行嘛！要檢驗OK、安全才能出去，對不對？署長？"],["姜署長至剛：委員，讓我稍微做說明……"],["陳委員昭姿：不用太……，因為我也不好意思花大家太多時間。"],["姜署長至剛：因為整個檢驗跟……是在6個月內，我們規定一定要驗，所以它內部其實是一劑一劑的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們以常理來講嘛，你已經先賣掉了嘛，才檢驗……"],["姜署長至剛：它是random，所以我們要確認是不是同一批。"],["陳委員昭姿：同一批……"],["姜署長至剛：對，是不是同一批。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是原則耶！藥品跟食品都一樣耶！你不是拿南僑的那個東西去做檢驗，很多人不懂，是源頭的東西丟在那邊，我們必須拿當時製造的同一批出來做檢驗，這才叫檢驗。"],["姜署長至剛：對，報告委員，我們對於這個部分其實沒有逐批檢驗……"],["陳委員昭姿：為什麼檢驗結果不一樣？3次都不一樣！"],["姜署長至剛：所以後續檢調已經介入說那個部分其實是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那為什麼同一批東西的檢驗結果，一次是沒有、一次是超標2倍、一次是超標4倍？","第三個，我認為檢測有問題嘛，你們要去了解這個部分是不是取樣有問題，取樣是誰來做的？你又取樣又檢驗嗎？還是廠商取樣，然後檢驗室去檢驗呢？這個部分學問很多耶！","第四個，因為可以檢驗很多次，是不是好不容易等到一次正常的才公布？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，第三個部分，因為它是連續製程，到底在哪一點是不確定的。第四個，送到SGS的時候，因為這是認證的實驗室，對於他們整個的認證規則，我們目前是能夠接受的。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們想知道嘛，出事了，我剛剛問你的問題都是合理懷疑嘛！"],["姜署長至剛：所以我們會去確認它當初是怎麼樣……"],["陳委員昭姿：所以這四個問題很重要，現在大家已經提到大豆原料，我再請問，中聯油脂拿到大豆原料以後，它在製作大豆沙拉油之前有檢驗過嗎？它為什麼不檢驗？有沒有檢驗？有沒有資料？"],["姜署長至剛：它歷史的資料……"],["陳委員昭姿：它買東西要來賣！"],["姜署長至剛：歷史的資料裡面它是有檢驗的。"],["陳委員昭姿：它有檢驗？"],["姜署長至剛：不是每一批有檢驗，但是有看到它有檢驗，過去的檢驗……"],["陳委員昭姿：你有看到有檢驗？"],["姜署長至剛：我們有看到報告。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，第一個我要先了解它有沒有檢驗。"],["姜署長至剛：它有，部分的……"],["陳委員昭姿：4月13號，我剛剛強調了嘛，我覺得先出貨再檢驗是沒道理的，但是這一批13號出去的，是真的沒有驗出來還是一直驗到沒有問題才把報告寫出來呢？我可以懷疑嘛，我可以合理懷疑嘛！你要去查啊！"],["姜署長至剛：這部分我們有看到報告，後續的話，我們看到報告也需要檢調來協助我們。"],["陳委員昭姿：檢驗過不可以隱藏喔！它到底檢驗了幾次，是不是好不容易等到一次可以見人的才拿出來？對不對？到底誰在隱匿、誰在說謊、誰在造假？就這個部分，請你給我一份報告，可以吧？我們可以了解吧？","我要再講的是當時1,300公噸的流向，署長，您談了一個最終濃度，後來你又說以20%的含量為界線來做管理。但我要再提醒你有關食安法的規定，投影片上有寫出食安法第十五條第一項第三款的規定，食品或食品添加物有下列情形，後面根本就不能再做了，所以不是含量多少的問題，而是有這樣的情形就不得製造、加工、調配等等，第三款就是「有毒」，當然有毒啊，Benzopyrene就是一級致癌物啊！"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，它是……"],["陳委員昭姿：我是引用這個法，並不是瞎說的……"],["姜署長至剛：在衛生安全標準裡面，它的製程等各方面有一個容許的量，是2 ppb。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們在想說，就算你認為在這個過程當中產生的東西也許無害，但我們三個人都是醫學教育體系出身的，我來問一下，一個藥品在還沒有確定完全安全之前，你要假設它是不安全的，還是一個藥品在沒有經過完全的臨床試驗證實是不安全的，我們就認為它是安全的？這個邏輯非常重要，所以當你們認為20%以下可能沒有問題的時候，你們忘掉了我們在學校學的東西，這樣講可以接受嗎？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，其實製藥過程也有類似的情形，也沒有做到逐批檢驗啦，一樣的道理，也都是simply，並不是這樣……"],["陳委員昭姿：檢驗方法是一個，我剛剛在講那個重要的觀念，在你還沒有證實它安全之前，你要當作它不安全嘛，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：這是一個叫做……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們在講alpha error、beta error，就是在講這件事啊！"],["石部長崇良：這個在談的是容許標準啦，它不是有毒啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：你說的這個我剛剛已經說過了，我現在是進入另外一個邏輯嘛，因為你們當時覺得20在稀釋之後就沒問題嘛，但這是一個思考而已嘛，我說要很小心，我今天提出這個問題……"],["石部長崇良：那是容許量的概念！"],["陳委員昭姿：OK嘛，我今天跟你談是就事論事。"],["石部長崇良：我們現在的管理上有兩種，一種叫零檢出，一種叫容許量。"],["陳委員昭姿：我覺得這次的重點是檢驗，因為檢驗有三道嘛，包括自主檢驗、委外檢驗，然後再加上抽驗，如果前面兩道……目前是破功，所以衛福部將來是不是針對後面的抽驗要稍微改變，要提前去做一些介入，剛剛許多委員也提到了，雖然有三道把關，但還是出問題了嘛，第三道把關是在政府機關，所以是不是也要想想看這個地方要怎麼改變。","現在這1,300公噸，目前回收約43公噸，占3.3%，你我都有基本的統計學基礎，小於5%就幾乎是沒有嘛，等於沒查到、都沒有追回來嘛，才3.3%，就是沒有嘛，所以真的是已經遍布全國了啦！","我要再談一件事，剛才也有委員問到溯源，你知道食安最重要的精神是什麼？可溯源啦！為什麼要有標章？為什麼台糖的豬肉要標章？如果沒辦法溯源的話，這個食安的精神就不見了！","最後我要講的就是南僑，部長，你說很快，我先跟你說，南僑我一個都不認識，我也不知道它是誰開的，但是南僑這一次……你強調中聯要罰，而南僑基本上是這樣的，因為它發現檢驗有問題的時候，理論上要跟你們報告，我知道，但是它先報告了它的上游，如果最後證實不是，因為它發現有問題，證實不是的話，它在商業上有法律責任喔，所以它報告給福壽嘛！其實真正拖延的，我認為啦，這是我的觀點，真正拖延的是福壽跟中聯啦！如果你的處罰，我不是說它不能處罰，但你如果這樣做的話，等於是要求吹哨者要承擔所有的責任啊！你昨天說的那句話，好像這個要罰那個要罰，以後是不是會有寒蟬效應，乾脆都不要講了。這次如果不是南僑出來，我跟你講，我們都不知道吃多久了，我也不相信只有4月才發生，我也已經不再相信了，好嗎？就是有關南僑的部分，我要提醒你。"],["石部長崇良：對，但是它驗出來有問題的時候，它如何看待它自己的產品，有沒有繼續銷售這個事情還是需要……"],["陳委員昭姿：我同意，我同意你談這一點，但是剛剛我提到的，因為在商業責任……"],["石部長崇良：還是有責任啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：南僑我完全不認識，但是它馬上報告上游廠商嘛，讓他們再去做確認嘛，這個上游廠商為什麼放那麼久？我的意思是說輕重不一啦，就是說你在處罰的時候是輕重不一啦……"],["石部長崇良：但是它如何去處理它的產品，這個是重點。"],["陳委員昭姿：但今天如果不是它，你會知道這件事嗎？我們會知道我們吃了這麼多的毒嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對，但是每個業者對於自己販賣的產品都是有責任的，所以它是在販賣……"],["陳委員昭姿：是，我沒有否定這件事。"],["石部長崇良：所以如果驗出有問題的時候，它怎麼去處理它的商品是需要檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：輕重拿捏一下，今天如果不是這個事情出來，我們都不會知道，以為都沒事，好嗎？兩位首長請思考一下我今天質詢的一些重點，謝謝，謝謝兩位署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢。","現在休息，1點45分再開會。","休息（13時13分）","繼續開會（13時45分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}