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13:59:26","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":6.527843750000001,"end":9.582218750000003,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":8.62034375,"end":9.34596875,"speaker_score":0.824},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":9.447218750000001,"end":11.337218750000002,"speaker_score":0.824},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":10.78034375,"end":10.915343750000002,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":12.73784375,"end":13.075343750000002,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":13.969718750000002,"end":16.21409375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":17.96909375,"end":19.84221875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":21.10784375,"end":26.18721875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":26.59221875,"end":29.00534375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":30.675968750000003,"end":33.24096875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":33.67971875,"end":37.830968750000004,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":38.252843750000004,"end":41.45909375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":42.10034375,"end":42.52221875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":43.24784375,"end":44.867843750000006,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":45.34034375,"end":47.736593750000004,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":49.508468750000006,"end":57.59159375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":58.13159375,"end":59.312843750000006,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":60.072218750000005,"end":63.61596875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":64.20659375000001,"end":65.47221875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":65.67471875000001,"end":72.07034375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":72.49221875,"end":77.21721875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":77.68971875000001,"end":77.90909375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":78.39846875,"end":80.25471875000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":81.21659375,"end":86.63346875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":87.56159375,"end":90.10971875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":91.25721875,"end":93.48471875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":93.78846875,"end":95.49284375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":95.83034375000001,"end":97.24784375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":97.82159375,"end":101.29784375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":102.32721875,"end":106.15784375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":106.66409375,"end":110.69721875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":111.42284375000001,"end":113.49846875,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":113.85284375,"end":115.37159375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":115.59096875,"end":118.71284375,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":119.77596875,"end":120.70409375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"劉委員建國","start":121.07534375,"end":121.78409375000001,"speaker_score":0.978},{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們提出相關的一些批判那食安辦的主任也都在那我想這樣啦我從一個角度來看我們就對照我們對照蘇丹紅"},{"start":87.588,"end":110.463,"text":"我們對戰蘇丹的時候 當時處理速度怎麼樣中國的優點事件在第一十一 七月二號FDA宣布下架第一層的產品嘛 對不對好 七月三號十二點 未完成下架就開滑嘛七月五號擴大下架第二層調味油及含油二十趴以上六號二十四點 十二點 凌晨十二點以前要完成"},{"start":112.248,"end":121.611,"text":"這個二層的下架那7月8號只要用到油品全部預防性下架這間中間就一個禮拜了你過去AODA在處理這一個蘇丹紅它是被國際認定是第三級的自來物我們現在處理的是第一級的自來物"},{"start":138.168,"end":166.065,"text":"然後當時是要求蘇丹紅相關的製品 原化妝品通通要下架通通要下架但我剛剛提到 孕病筆是國際認定第一起自來物食藥署當時說因為蘇丹紅是額外添加的這次孕病筆不是而且製成產品就稀釋到安全值所以不用下架"},{"start":167.725,"end":188.402,"text":"部長你覺得你能接受嗎?社會大眾可以接受嗎?因為部長你不能接受,社會大眾不能接受所以才有7月5號到7月6號所謂的凌晨24點前完成第二層的下架但括號調和有疾含有20%以上"},{"start":189.537,"end":204.614,"text":"目前的時序是這個樣子嘛FDS7月1號稽查中聯友中聯友子7月2號下令7月3號一直到中午12點的期限下架第一層但是第二層是不用下架我想這樣沒有錯嘛"},{"start":208.286,"end":224.306,"text":"為什麼這兩照 一個是第三節致癌物 一個是一個是這個第一節致癌物 為什麼為什麼為什麼你們處理上為落差這麼大 你要不要說明一下跟委員說明 蘇丹紅是不得添加啦然後這一次的VAP這個"},{"start":225.767,"end":244.312,"text":"扁扁比是屬於安全衛生標準裡面去訂它訂出了一個濃度所以這兩個的管理模式在過去一向以來的標準處理是不一樣所以如果是不得添加而添加的不論第一層第二層通通要下架"},{"start":245.132,"end":261.552,"text":"那麼如果是違反衛生安全標準的那是第一層下架這個是過去在106年幾次的食安事件下來之後所訂出公告的一個處理原則所以食藥署一開始就是按照這個處理原則在處理"},{"start":263.894,"end":291.594,"text":"我們當然理解到民眾的這個擔憂啦所以才會後面在7月4號再開專家會議就之前所訂的這個下架的標準再討論這樣有的是吃到人體的肚子嘛對不對那個蘇丹農化專品是外用的我們就要求要全部下架了而且它是國際認證的第三級自來物這個是一級自來物"},{"start":293.957,"end":320.279,"text":"然後你們說這樣的一個下架的過程跟這個時序你們下架時機也一遍再變了就連目前的問題產品的名單其實還是很緩慢的還是很緩慢的而且我要提醒我們A5D現在是用一個正常人的容許量在看待這個事情一個正常人的容許量如果就要製成產品後劑量低於容許值"},{"start":321.618,"end":350.066,"text":"的一個範疇去認定那我一點不太懂啊小朋友咧還有重症病患咧肝病的病患咧尤其肝病的病患重症病患平常對這些有害的物質就要左抖右閃了但是事發到現在一直到昨天晚上FDA公布的才348項受影響的產品嘛沒有錯嘛會不會再增加"},{"start":352.595,"end":375.832,"text":"這348就全部了嗎昨天是232但是我們會持續更新如果有的昨天是232昨天是232節制到昨天為止是232今天有沒有再增加有 會再增加要增加到什麼時候也就是說我們您在清查這樣的一個範圍跟確定這樣的相關的品項我們"},{"start":382.02,"end":410.461,"text":"我覺得這個是這真的是澳大利亞大陸的這真的是澳大利亞大陸的啦下架現在總總值的量是四十幾四十三噸四十三噸嘛對不對都是從自有完成的從廠家下架的還是從已經有上架的回收這些油 對不起回收這些油是從架上回收來的對不對"},{"start":412.052,"end":429.724,"text":"主要 主要 阿消費者買到的這些咧那個還沒統計進來 那個是退的對 要退嘛 退貨的 阿退 阿他如果花票找不到 阿怎麼退一罐牛奶蝦一百塊兩百塊 一包王子麵有可能五塊六塊 四百塊那樣"},{"start":432.779,"end":448.335,"text":"我有一位朋友原本要拿王子妹去做捐血的相關的一些提供給捐血的對象來做這個反正就是一些奧秘案就對了啦他也不曉得王子妹已經在這一個必須要下架的三品之內但是我剛有看到提醒說那個你不要再放下去了"},{"start":457.737,"end":480.808,"text":"所以你到現在兩百幾天,你今天一定會再累積,明天會再累積,後天會再累積,然後你回收油的部分是針對廠家,上架的,那消費者的,他沒有發票,你要怎麼處理?你一毛錢也可能幾百票,六塊,你要拿嗎?十塊你要拿嗎?油的部分一罐可能一百塊、兩百塊,你要拿嗎?如果沒有發票,你要怎麼處理?"},{"start":482.964,"end":490.526,"text":"你現在面對到這些事情,到現在整體的一個SOP就是後避高端賣只有這些事情而已嗎?部長,不只這樣啦還有後續,還有相關延伸性的問題喔所以柏中你要趕快勤勤起來,真的"},{"start":508.634,"end":521.323,"text":"你這不精采下去真的會出問題終於由此查出是一千三公噸的大豆沙油它有一起自來物嘛齁只有這一次嗎只有這一批嗎"},{"start":524.762,"end":552.085,"text":"這個部分跟委員說明我們已經擴大到其他的批次現在正在檢驗中因為第一個規定除了食用油脂還有綜合三品零售業每半年或每批其餘業別就是每季或每批至少檢驗一次這其實是當中就有很大的空窗期你如果看那個時序你如果再往前推所以今天怎麼會發生這個事情"},{"start":557.609,"end":582.954,"text":"我們在這個委員會修食安法當時那個部長對這個比較沒有涉獵啦我們在這個委員會修食安法修幾百呢七百至八百然後再到後來的食安五環就一個源頭的管理今天坦白講有人已經提出來從源頭管理我們就出了問題那我們現在再做後續的一個因應跟補救"},{"start":585.856,"end":604.091,"text":"把損害降到最低,但我沒有看到我沒有看到,我再問下去問題會更大我剛剛點的那幾個,你油要怎麼拿,油要怎麼修回來你不給他對大鏡而已,你在消費者裡面要怎麼處理還是沒辦法回答我一百塊、兩百塊沒辦法,要修回來嗎,要怎麼修"},{"start":614.451,"end":642.85,"text":"主任你可能要來講一下話吧你是食安辦的主任我們現在只是講吃的喔還有其他的回收的這一邊就是公司都同意可以退不管他的那個大包裝小包裝跟金額那我們現在在嘗試著跟通路去溝通說好比說全聯他就可以幫忙收可以去退貨那原來的好比說像胃王什麼他都可以退是這樣"},{"start":644.011,"end":651.615,"text":"沒有花票可以嗎?應該,假如他有主任沒有叫做應該,可以就可以,不可以就不可以"},{"start":654.404,"end":673.629,"text":"明確說明OK 好不好經濟部嘛消保處消保處 OK 對不起因為我們在處理像這些退貨的這樣的一個程序的時候包括之前的食用油的案子也都是希望我們的消費者一定要有至少發票好 那如果東西食品已經吃完了那就請業者能夠從寬跟從優讓消費者可以來退貨"},{"start":676.971,"end":692.873,"text":"對 如果沒有發票呢沒有發票其實基本上無法證明有那種真正的一個購買所以如果這些他已經有購買的但是因為花票因為業績也不大嘛但是如果有購票的一些相關證明那個我們大概也是可以請業者能夠從寬跟從油去做"},{"start":693.354,"end":709.811,"text":"阿今天如果這一罐我已經用了三分之一或是用了一半阿他確實也是在這一批的批次裡面的範圍跟使用的實現然後我只是因為沒有花票所以我就不用退我就直接叫他我就不能讓他退那就直接叫他留在家裡然後留在家裡要幹什麼"},{"start":710.912,"end":735.046,"text":"對 其實就是重點是在說要證明自己有所謂的購買這樣的一個事實跟有使用的這樣一個曾經使用過的狀況即便沒有使用完畢那在以往消費消保處在處理這種退換貨的原則基本上就是要用這個去做扣核啦因為基本上要讓所有的一個我知道啦 現在就是沒有相關憑證沒有花票請問實際上就不能退嗎"},{"start":735.586,"end":755.65,"text":"如果可以證明有購買事實跟購買證明的話這當然也是一個可以從寵寬跟寵優的方向我要提供購買證明的時候最直接就是花票嘛對不對還是整個那一個打出來那個收據嘛對不對這些我都沒有因為可能我去買一罐而已所以也那其實會蠻困難的啦因為對業者來講是很困難去說他到底有沒有去買我說我還記得某月我去買了那一瓶"},{"start":760.911,"end":770.674,"text":"我要求大賣場把錄影帶到處來,可以當成佐證資料嗎?大賣場要配合嗎?燒商要配合嗎?量貫店要配合嗎?如果不配合怎麼辦?這個消費後續的影響,那政府要怎麼處理?因為量體很大,很多啦"},{"start":791.136,"end":813.811,"text":"實驗的關係啦,我是覺得部長真的立即有效的快速清查還有跟我講那件事情可能你們的專家會議含賴這些通通要來一併做出相關的積極的因應的有效的一些作為啦然後我覺得FDA還有包含這些事情整體的相關的官員你們要主動移送檢調啦"},{"start":815.493,"end":839.337,"text":"主動已經剪掉 徹查清楚了處理食安問題絕對不能像拍連續劇絕對不能像拍連續劇這樣還有後面還有後續的東西時間關係我再度很誠懇的提醒部長跟署長還有相關的官員包含消費者那些事情也是要積極營運謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝劉建國我的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:45:32.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:45:34.529000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請部長及署長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:45:34.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:45:37.771000+08:00","text":"有請石部長、姜署長。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:45:37.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:46:30.841000+08:00","text":"部長，處理食安問題不能像拍連續劇，更加不能歹戲拖棚，以你跟署長兩位，基本上，你們在處理事情都是很積極，然後反應還有……反正在處理很多事情的過程裡面，我覺得你們都是有一定程度的經驗跟能力，可是在這次整個中聯油品事件的處理上，我卻看出一些不像你們過去在推動相關政策或處理應變事件時該有的作為，是不是底下提供了不實訊息還是造成了一些誤導？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:46:30.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:46:44.632000+08:00","text":"今天從早上一直到現在，很多委員都有從各個面向對你們提出質疑或是對你們提出相關的一些批判，食安辦的主任也在。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:46:46.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:47:02.875000+08:00","text":"我想這樣，我從另一個角度來看，我們就來對比蘇丹紅事件在當時的處理速度，中聯油品事件第一時間是7月2號FDA宣布下架第一層的產品嘛，對不對？","quality":0.79},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:47:03.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:47:23.650000+08:00","text":"在7月3號中午12點未完成下架就開罰；7月5號擴大下架第二層調和油及含油20%以上的，7月6號24點以前要完成第二層的下架；7月8號則是只要用到油品，全部都預防性下架，這中間就一個禮拜了。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:47:23.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:48:11.045000+08:00","text":"我們相比過去FDA處理蘇丹紅事件的方式，蘇丹紅被國際認定是第三級致癌物，而我們現在處理的是第一級致癌物，當時是要求蘇丹紅相關的製品，連化妝品通通要下架喔，但剛剛有特別提到，苯駢芘是國際認定的第一級致癌物；食藥署的說法是，因為蘇丹紅是額外添加的，這次的苯駢芘不是，而且製成產品就稀釋到安全值，所以不用下架。","quality":0.736},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:48:12.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:48:14.446000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得能接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:48:14.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:48:17.549000+08:00","text":"社會大眾可以接受嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:48:17.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:48:35.778000+08:00","text":"也因為部長不能接受、社會大眾不能接受，所以才有7月5號公布於7月6號24點前要完成第二層下架（調和油及含油20%以上），目前的時序是這個樣子嘛！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:48:36.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:48:49.594000+08:00","text":"FDA是7月1號稽查中聯油脂，7月2號下令，7月3號到中午12點為期限要下架第一層，但是第二層是不用下架的，我講這樣沒有錯嘛！","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:48:54.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:49:01.636000+08:00","text":"一個是第三級致癌物，一個是第一級致癌物，為什麼你們在處理上的落差這麼大？","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:49:02.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:49:02.658000+08:00","text":"你要不要說明一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:49:03.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:49:24.371000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，蘇丹紅是不得添加，而這一次的BaP（苯駢芘）則是要在安全衛生標準裡去訂出一個濃度，所以這兩個的管理模式，過去一向以來的標準及處理是不一樣的。","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:49:24.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:49:46.532000+08:00","text":"也就是說，如果是不得添加而添加的，不論第一層、第二層統統要下架；如果是違反衛生安全標準的，是第一層下架，這是過去106年經幾次食安事件之後所訂定公告的處理原則，所以食藥署一開始就是按照這個處理原則在處理。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:49:48.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:50:00.282000+08:00","text":"我們當然理解民眾的擔憂啦，所以後面才會在7月4號再開專家會議，就之前所訂定的這個下架標準再做討論。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:50:01.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:50:50.699000+08:00","text":"油是吃到人體的肚子裡，蘇丹紅的化粧品是外用，我們就要求要全部下架，而且那是國際認證的第三級致癌物，這個是一級致癌物，然後你們說的下架過程跟時序，你們的下架時機也一變再變，就連目前公布問題產品的名單也還是很緩慢，而且我要提醒，FDA現在是用一個正常人的容許量在看待這個事情，如果是以製成產品後劑量低於容許值的範疇去認定，那我有點不太懂，這樣小朋友呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:50:52+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:50:52.700000+08:00","text":"還有重症病患呢？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:50:54.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:50:54.780000+08:00","text":"肝病的病患呢？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:50:57.521000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:13.065000+08:00","text":"尤其是肝病的病患、重症病患，平常對這些有害的物質就要左躲右閃了，但是從事發到現在，一直到昨天晚上FDA才公布348項受影響的產品嘛！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:13.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:13.826000+08:00","text":"沒有錯嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:14.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:15.046000+08:00","text":"會不會再增加？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:17.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:19.756000+08:00","text":"這348項就是全部了嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:19.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:24.540000+08:00","text":"昨天是232項，但是如果有的話，我們會持續更新，昨天是232項。","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:27.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:29.603000+08:00","text":"截至昨天為止是232項，今天有沒有再增加？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:30.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:32.205000+08:00","text":"有，會再增加。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:33.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:51:34.567000+08:00","text":"對，要增加到什麼時候？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:51:37.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:02.271000+08:00","text":"也就是說，你們連清查範圍跟確定相關的品項……我覺得這真的歹戲拖棚，現在總下架量是四十幾……43噸。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:03.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:15.461000+08:00","text":"都是製油完成的、從廠家下架的，就是這些油是從架上回收來的，對不對？","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:17.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:17.252000+08:00","text":"對，主要。對啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:18.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:21.055000+08:00","text":"那消費者買到的這些呢？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:23.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:25.198000+08:00","text":"那個還沒有統計進來，那個是退的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:26.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:26.618000+08:00","text":"對，要退嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:26.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:27.299000+08:00","text":"退貨的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:27.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:29.801000+08:00","text":"他如果找不到發票，那要怎麼退？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:52:30.801000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:52:53.315000+08:00","text":"一罐油有時候100塊、200塊，一包小包的王子麵有可能5塊、6塊，我有一個朋友原本要提供王子麵給去捐血的對象當作小禮物，他也不曉得王子麵已經在必須要下架的商品之內，可是我剛好看到有提醒他說那個不要再放下去了。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:02.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:14.242000+08:00","text":"所以到現在兩百多項，今天一定會再累積，明天會再累積，後天會再累積，你回收油的部分是針對廠家、上架的，那消費者的部分，如果他沒有發票，你們要怎麼處理？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:15.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:19.025000+08:00","text":"一包麵可能有開發票，6塊，你要給人家退嗎？","quality":0.471},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:19.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:19.545000+08:00","text":"10塊，你要給人家退嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:19.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:23.767000+08:00","text":"油的部分一罐可能100塊、200塊，你要給人家退嗎？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:23.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:25.788000+08:00","text":"如果沒有發票，你要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:27.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:29.505000+08:00","text":"你現在面對這些事情，到現在整體的SOP就是歹戲拖棚啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:29.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:30.725000+08:00","text":"只有這些事情而已嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:30.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:30.865000+08:00","text":"部長，不只這樣啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:31.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:35.506000+08:00","text":"還有後續，還有相關延伸性的問題，所以部長你要趕快堅強起來，真的啦！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:53.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:53:54.975000+08:00","text":"你再不堅強下去真的會出問題。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:53:56.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:54:05.922000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂查出1,300公噸的大豆沙拉油含有一級致癌物，只有這一次嗎？","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:54:05.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:54:06.323000+08:00","text":"只有這一批嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T13:54:09.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:54:14.866000+08:00","text":"這個部分跟委員說明，我們已經擴大到其他的批次，現在正在檢驗中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:54:16.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:54:34.282000+08:00","text":"FDA規定，除了食用油脂還有綜合商品零售業者為每半年或每批至少一次進行外，其餘業別就是每季或每批至少檢驗一次，其實這當中就有很大的空窗期，你要看那個時序再往前推嘛！","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:54:35.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:13.699000+08:00","text":"所以今天怎麼會發生這個事情，我們在這個委員會修食安法，當時部長對這個比較沒有涉獵，我們在這個委員會修食安法修了7次至8次，再到後來的食安五環從源頭管理，坦白講，今天有人已經提出來，從源頭管理我們就出了問題，我們現在在做後續的因應跟補救，把損害降到最低，但我沒有看到。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:15.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:24.147000+08:00","text":"我再問下去，問題會更大，我剛剛點了那幾個，你油要怎麼退、油要怎麼收回來？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:24.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:26.329000+08:00","text":"你不能只針對大間的而已，你對消費者要怎麼處理？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:26.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:26.789000+08:00","text":"還是沒辦法答復我。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:27.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:28.911000+08:00","text":"100塊、200塊，沒發票，要不要收回來？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:28.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:29.071000+08:00","text":"要怎麼收？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:39.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:55:45.535000+08:00","text":"主任，你可能要來講一下話，你是食安辦主任，我們現在只是講吃的，還有其他的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T13:55:47.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:07.510000+08:00","text":"回收的這一邊，公司都同意可以退，不管大包裝、小包裝跟金額，我們現在在嘗試跟通路去溝通，好比說全聯就可以幫忙收、可以去退貨，原來的，好比說像味王等等，他都可以退。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:09.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:12.933000+08:00","text":"沒有發票也可以嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:12.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:13.573000+08:00","text":"應該……假如他有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:13.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:19.484000+08:00","text":"主任，沒有叫做應該，可以就可以，不可以就不可以，明確說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:19.484000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:21.125000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:21.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:21.125000+08:00","text":"經濟部嗎？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:22.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:23.385000+08:00","text":"消保處。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:24.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:38.629000+08:00","text":"以往我們在處理像這些退貨的程序的時候，包括之前食用油的案子，也都是希望我們的消費者一定要至少有發票，如果東西、食品已經吃完了，那就請業者能夠從寬跟從優，讓消費者可以來退貨。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:41.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:42.632000+08:00","text":"對，那如果沒有發票呢？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:43.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:46.157000+08:00","text":"沒有發票基本上無法證明有沒有真正的購買……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:46.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:51.284000+08:00","text":"如果這些他已經有購買，但是因為金額不大，發票……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:51.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:56:57.853000+08:00","text":"但如果有購買的一些相關證明，那個我們大概也是可以請業者能夠從寬跟從優去做這樣的認定。","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:56:58.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:14.811000+08:00","text":"今天如果這一罐油我已經用了三分之一或是用了一半，然後確實也是在這一批次的範圍跟使用期限內，只是因為沒有發票，所以就不能讓他退，就直接叫他留在家裡，那留在家裡要幹什麼？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:15.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:36.124000+08:00","text":"對，其實重點是在要證明自己有購買的事實，跟曾經有使用過的狀況，即便沒有使用完畢，以往消保處在處理這種退換貨的原則，基本上就是要用這個去做扣合，因為基本上要讓所有的……","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:36.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:37.044000+08:00","text":"我知道啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:37.464000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:40.026000+08:00","text":"現在就是沒有相關憑證、沒有發票的情況就不能退嘛！","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:40.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:47.747000+08:00","text":"如果可以證明有購買事實跟購買證明的話，這當然也是一個可以從寬跟從優的方向。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:48.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:54.429000+08:00","text":"我要提供購買證明最直接的就是發票，或是整個打出來的收據嘛！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:55.429000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:55.569000+08:00","text":"對不對？是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:55.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:58.670000+08:00","text":"但這些我都沒有，因為可能我去買一罐而已，所以也……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:58.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:57:59.110000+08:00","text":"那其實會蠻困難的，因為對業者來講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:57:59.950000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:09.572000+08:00","text":"我在大賣場，我說我還記得我某月去買了那一瓶，我要求大賣場把錄影帶調出來當成佐證資料嗎？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:09.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:09.832000+08:00","text":"大賣場要配合嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:09.832000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:10.352000+08:00","text":"超商要配合嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:10.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:11.553000+08:00","text":"量販店要配合嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:11.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:11.733000+08:00","text":"如果不配合怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:11.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:13.633000+08:00","text":"這個消費後續的影響政府要怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:13.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:15.534000+08:00","text":"因為量體很大、很多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:36.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:58:51.186000+08:00","text":"時間的關係，我覺得部長真的要立即有效的快速清查，還有剛剛我講的那件事情，可能你們的專家會議要涵蓋這些，通通要一併做出相關積極的因應及有效的一些作為。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"劉委員建國","start":"2026-07-08T13:58:51.406000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:59:23.177000+08:00","text":"然後我覺得FDA，還有包含這些事情的相關官員，你們要主動移送檢調徹查清楚，處理食安問題絕對不能像拍連續劇這樣，還有後續的東西，時間的關係，我再度很誠懇地提醒部長跟署長，還有相關的官員，包含消費者那些事情也是要積極因應，謝謝主席。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:59:23.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T13:59:24.337000+08:00","text":"謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T13:59:24.837000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T13:59:27.979857+08:00","text":"接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1401,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時45分）謝謝主席，有請部長及署長。"],["主席：有請石部長、姜署長。"],["劉委員建國：部長，處理食安問題不能像拍連續劇，更加不能歹戲拖棚，以你跟署長兩位，基本上，你們在處理事情都是很積極，然後反應還有……反正在處理很多事情的過程裡面，我覺得你們都是有一定程度的經驗跟能力，可是在這次整個中聯油品事件的處理上，我卻看出一些不像你們過去在推動相關政策或處理應變事件時該有的作為，是不是底下提供了不實訊息還是造成了一些誤導？今天從早上一直到現在，很多委員都有從各個面向對你們提出質疑或是對你們提出相關的一些批判，食安辦的主任也在。","我想這樣，我從另一個角度來看，我們就來對比蘇丹紅事件在當時的處理速度，中聯油品事件第一時間是7月2號FDA宣布下架第一層的產品嘛，對不對？在7月3號中午12點未完成下架就開罰；7月5號擴大下架第二層調和油及含油20%以上的，7月6號24點以前要完成第二層的下架；7月8號則是只要用到油品，全部都預防性下架，這中間就一個禮拜了。","我們相比過去FDA處理蘇丹紅事件的方式，蘇丹紅被國際認定是第三級致癌物，而我們現在處理的是第一級致癌物，當時是要求蘇丹紅相關的製品，連化妝品通通要下架喔，但剛剛有特別提到，苯駢芘是國際認定的第一級致癌物；食藥署的說法是，因為蘇丹紅是額外添加的，這次的苯駢芘不是，而且製成產品就稀釋到安全值，所以不用下架。部長，你覺得能接受嗎？社會大眾可以接受嗎？也因為部長不能接受、社會大眾不能接受，所以才有7月5號公布於7月6號24點前要完成第二層下架（調和油及含油20%以上），目前的時序是這個樣子嘛！FDA是7月1號稽查中聯油脂，7月2號下令，7月3號到中午12點為期限要下架第一層，但是第二層是不用下架的，我講這樣沒有錯嘛！一個是第三級致癌物，一個是第一級致癌物，為什麼你們在處理上的落差這麼大？你要不要說明一下？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，蘇丹紅是不得添加，而這一次的BaP（苯駢芘）則是要在安全衛生標準裡去訂出一個濃度，所以這兩個的管理模式，過去一向以來的標準及處理是不一樣的。也就是說，如果是不得添加而添加的，不論第一層、第二層統統要下架；如果是違反衛生安全標準的，是第一層下架，這是過去106年經幾次食安事件之後所訂定公告的處理原則，所以食藥署一開始就是按照這個處理原則在處理。我們當然理解民眾的擔憂啦，所以後面才會在7月4號再開專家會議，就之前所訂定的這個下架標準再做討論。"],["劉委員建國：油是吃到人體的肚子裡，蘇丹紅的化粧品是外用，我們就要求要全部下架，而且那是國際認證的第三級致癌物，這個是一級致癌物，然後你們說的下架過程跟時序，你們的下架時機也一變再變，就連目前公布問題產品的名單也還是很緩慢，而且我要提醒，FDA現在是用一個正常人的容許量在看待這個事情，如果是以製成產品後劑量低於容許值的範疇去認定，那我有點不太懂，這樣小朋友呢？還有重症病患呢？肝病的病患呢？尤其是肝病的病患、重症病患，平常對這些有害的物質就要左躲右閃了，但是從事發到現在，一直到昨天晚上FDA才公布348項受影響的產品嘛！沒有錯嗎？會不會再增加？這348項就是全部了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：昨天是232項，但是如果有的話，我們會持續更新，昨天是232項。"],["劉委員建國：截至昨天為止是232項，今天有沒有再增加？"],["石部長崇良：有，會再增加。"],["劉委員建國：對，要增加到什麼時候？也就是說，你們連清查範圍跟確定相關的品項……我覺得這真的歹戲拖棚，現在總下架量是四十幾……"],["石部長崇良：43噸。"],["劉委員建國：都是製油完成的、從廠家下架的，就是這些油是從架上回收來的，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對，主要。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！那消費者買到的這些呢？"],["石部長崇良：那個還沒有統計進來，那個是退的。"],["劉委員建國：對，要退嘛！"],["石部長崇良：退貨的。"],["劉委員建國：他如果找不到發票，那要怎麼退？一罐油有時候100塊、200塊，一包小包的王子麵有可能5塊、6塊，我有一個朋友原本要提供王子麵給去捐血的對象當作小禮物，他也不曉得王子麵已經在必須要下架的商品之內，可是我剛好看到有提醒他說那個不要再放下去了。所以到現在兩百多項，今天一定會再累積，明天會再累積，後天會再累積，你回收油的部分是針對廠家、上架的，那消費者的部分，如果他沒有發票，你們要怎麼處理？一包麵可能有開發票，6塊，你要給人家退嗎？10塊，你要給人家退嗎？油的部分一罐可能100塊、200塊，你要給人家退嗎？如果沒有發票，你要怎麼處理？你現在面對這些事情，到現在整體的SOP就是歹戲拖棚啦！只有這些事情而已嗎？部長，不只這樣啦！還有後續，還有相關延伸性的問題，所以部長你要趕快堅強起來，真的啦！你再不堅強下去真的會出問題。","中聯油脂查出1,300公噸的大豆沙拉油含有一級致癌物，只有這一次嗎？只有這一批嗎？"],["石部長崇良：這個部分跟委員說明，我們已經擴大到其他的批次，現在正在檢驗中。"],["劉委員建國：FDA規定，除了食用油脂還有綜合商品零售業者為每半年或每批至少一次進行外，其餘業別就是每季或每批至少檢驗一次，其實這當中就有很大的空窗期，你要看那個時序再往前推嘛！所以今天怎麼會發生這個事情，我們在這個委員會修食安法，當時部長對這個比較沒有涉獵，我們在這個委員會修食安法修了7次至8次，再到後來的食安五環從源頭管理，坦白講，今天有人已經提出來，從源頭管理我們就出了問題，我們現在在做後續的因應跟補救，把損害降到最低，但我沒有看到。","我再問下去，問題會更大，我剛剛點了那幾個，你油要怎麼退、油要怎麼收回來？你不能只針對大間的而已，你對消費者要怎麼處理？還是沒辦法答復我。100塊、200塊，沒發票，要不要收回來？要怎麼收？主任，你可能要來講一下話，你是食安辦主任，我們現在只是講吃的，還有其他的。"],["許主任輔：回收的這一邊，公司都同意可以退，不管大包裝、小包裝跟金額，我們現在在嘗試跟通路去溝通，好比說全聯就可以幫忙收、可以去退貨，原來的，好比說像味王等等，他都可以退。"],["劉委員建國：沒有發票也可以嗎？"],["許主任輔：應該……假如他有……"],["劉委員建國：主任，沒有叫做應該，可以就可以，不可以就不可以，明確說明。"],["陳副處長星宏：跟委員報告。"],["劉委員建國：經濟部嗎？"],["陳副處長星宏：消保處。以往我們在處理像這些退貨的程序的時候，包括之前食用油的案子，也都是希望我們的消費者一定要至少有發票，如果東西、食品已經吃完了，那就請業者能夠從寬跟從優，讓消費者可以來退貨。"],["劉委員建國：對，那如果沒有發票呢？"],["陳副處長星宏：沒有發票基本上無法證明有沒有真正的購買……"],["劉委員建國：如果這些他已經有購買，但是因為金額不大，發票……"],["陳副處長星宏：但如果有購買的一些相關證明，那個我們大概也是可以請業者能夠從寬跟從優去做這樣的認定。"],["劉委員建國：今天如果這一罐油我已經用了三分之一或是用了一半，然後確實也是在這一批次的範圍跟使用期限內，只是因為沒有發票，所以就不能讓他退，就直接叫他留在家裡，那留在家裡要幹什麼？"],["陳副處長星宏：對，其實重點是在要證明自己有購買的事實，跟曾經有使用過的狀況，即便沒有使用完畢，以往消保處在處理這種退換貨的原則，基本上就是要用這個去做扣合，因為基本上要讓所有的……"],["劉委員建國：我知道啦！現在就是沒有相關憑證、沒有發票的情況就不能退嘛！"],["陳副處長星宏：如果可以證明有購買事實跟購買證明的話，這當然也是一個可以從寬跟從優的方向。"],["劉委員建國：我要提供購買證明最直接的就是發票，或是整個打出來的收據嘛！對不對？"],["陳副處長星宏：是。"],["劉委員建國：但這些我都沒有，因為可能我去買一罐而已，所以也……"],["陳副處長星宏：那其實會蠻困難的，因為對業者來講……"],["劉委員建國：我在大賣場，我說我還記得我某月去買了那一瓶，我要求大賣場把錄影帶調出來當成佐證資料嗎？大賣場要配合嗎？超商要配合嗎？量販店要配合嗎？如果不配合怎麼辦？這個消費後續的影響政府要怎麼處理？因為量體很大、很多。","時間的關係，我覺得部長真的要立即有效的快速清查，還有剛剛我講的那件事情，可能你們的專家會議要涵蓋這些，通通要一併做出相關積極的因應及有效的一些作為。然後我覺得FDA，還有包含這些事情的相關官員，你們要主動移送檢調徹查清楚，處理食安問題絕對不能像拍連續劇這樣，還有後續的東西，時間的關係，我再度很誠懇地提醒部長跟署長，還有相關的官員，包含消費者那些事情也是要積極因應，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}