{"error":false,"id":["170385"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170385,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170385","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T14:44:36+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T14:56:14+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c8210abfbc17724e3b33d8c89d092fec882f4f377f92d09546404018613d2985edf055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"14:44:36 - 14:56:14","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.856593750000002,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":9.66659375,"end":15.79221875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":16.36596875,"end":16.73721875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":17.12534375,"end":18.03659375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":18.20534375,"end":20.85471875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":20.98971875,"end":33.915968750000005,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":34.05096875,"end":35.24909375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":35.83971875,"end":40.041593750000004,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":40.53096875,"end":41.66159375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":41.77971875,"end":43.399718750000005,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":43.720343750000005,"end":46.80846875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":47.213468750000004,"end":48.74909375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":49.23846875,"end":51.12846875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":51.66846875,"end":52.84971875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":53.27159375,"end":54.267218750000005,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":54.53721875,"end":55.56659375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":56.10659375,"end":62.85659375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":63.329093750000006,"end":64.24034375000001,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":66.45096875,"end":72.05346875000001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":72.05346875000001,"end":72.57659375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":72.17159375,"end":72.47534375000001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":72.57659375,"end":72.66096875000001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":72.66096875000001,"end":72.69471875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":72.69471875,"end":72.81284375,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":72.81284375,"end":73.85909375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":72.94784375,"end":73.62284375,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":73.85909375,"end":73.97721875,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":73.97721875,"end":75.15846875000001,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":75.59721875000001,"end":75.61409375000001,"speaker_score":0.805},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":75.61409375000001,"end":76.35659375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":76.76159375,"end":78.58409375000001,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":78.82034375,"end":81.23346875,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":81.72284375000001,"end":84.92909375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":85.82346875,"end":86.59971875000001,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":87.15659375,"end":89.01284375,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"李委員坤城","start":89.35034375000001,"end":90.59909375000001,"speaker_score":0.947},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name"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福壽他就說你一定要在這個P號這個批次裡面才能退福茂呢 這個他也是說要有問題的批次然後才能夠退 為什麼 泰山可以 其他兩家不行"},{"start":99.258,"end":123.931,"text":"當然我們原則是以有問題的為要求強制他要退啦那至於他要更寬的這個退法 這個是我們尊重他廠商的決定不是尊重啦 我跟你講就是說那你為什麼要擴大性的預防下架就是被我們所公布到的那你今天公布到這個批次 你現在公布沒有問題那為什麼知道說明天有沒有問題 後天有沒有問題 對不對"},{"start":126.519,"end":153.462,"text":"碳酸是不是今天又先跑出來了所以我們現在正式所以我是說如果是4月到6月這段時間買的能不能就是退碳酸就可以啊為什麼福壽福茂不行我們現在正進行4月到6月之間的它的所有每一個批次我們都在檢驗中如果驗出來哪一批有那一批就是要退所以你的意思是說我一定要是我去看說要是符合這個批號我才能退就對了我跟你講這會引起民怨啊"},{"start":155.888,"end":177.61,"text":"小百官呢?就消費者來講,他們的確並不是很容易知道說他們在這段時間買的那個油品是不是屬於公布的癖好所以正在一個比較友善的做法,泰山的做法是友善的"},{"start":178.191,"end":205.141,"text":"但是站在一個如果從確實是買到有影響油的一個管制性的一個看法上來看的話的確是只有買到這個有問題的油品才有這個一個退貨的權利啦所以是從兩個層次上去看這樣的一個問題啦那部長那你說你現在還跟消費者在斤斤計較嗎還在幫這一個泰山啊福茂福壽還站在他們那邊嗎"},{"start":206.992,"end":235.589,"text":"當然這個三家業者我們都是嚴查嚴辦這個都沒有問題我們都會擴大檢驗那麼只要是有問題的通通都是要下架也要給這個小貴賺錢所以現在還堅持就是說你們現在查出來有批號有問題財運局退就對了我們如果按照我們現在的法的規定當然是有問題那為什麼泰山可以這樣做那剛剛這個也提到這個是泰山他那泰山可以這樣做為什麼其他兩家不能這樣做"},{"start":240.405,"end":248.833,"text":"這個要來我們來要求看看不是 你這就要要求嘛你現在還是要跟消費者進行計較所以跟消費者進行計較還有我一定要拿發票才能退嗎對"},{"start":258.72,"end":279.093,"text":"所以就如果我們認定的是一個產品他這個製造者他當然就要負責任了不是我說我是拿發票我才能退嗎我已經是批次了我拿發票才能退嗎過去當然都是要認發票不過那個產品很明確的話是哪一個廠哪一個商家來我請副處長來回答好了"},{"start":280.922,"end":298.323,"text":"是那個報告委員其實那個在以往消保署關於這種大型的消費事件的退貨做法除了說要拿發票之外另外一個比較彈性的做法是其實廠商應該都有所謂的一個一個供貨的記錄比如說消費記錄嘛對消費記錄"},{"start":300.325,"end":323.949,"text":"那如果說這樣的一個消費記錄可以指涉到某一個消費者的確有在那個購買的情況的話我們現在很多電子消費其實都可以調到就是雲端的發票或者是一些刷卡的記錄或者說一些廠商的那種出貨跟銷售的記錄這個如果可以勾結得到的話那當然不一定是一定要有一個所謂的實體的紙本發票啦"},{"start":324.409,"end":343.885,"text":"那這個基本上都可以做一個在這個購買事實上的一個佐證所以不是部長 這個副組長講得很清楚不是要一定要發票所以現在還有很多通路商他要你拿著發票現在已經是七月份了四月到六月很多人發票沒有賺他就丟掉了結果這個有些通路商還說你要求說你要還要拿發票才能退合理嗎你們跟副組長講說不合理你只要有消費紀錄就可以了"},{"start":351.837,"end":362.718,"text":"你要跟大家講 你只要有消費紀錄就可以了副組長你講得很清楚了知不知道有消費紀錄就可以了 不一定要拿發票"},{"start":364.898,"end":392.627,"text":"這個我們協調看看 讓地方的消保處去協助這不是協調 這他已經講得很清楚了你只要有購買的憑證 信用卡的帳單 會員的消費紀錄都可以 還要去協調這本來就是要希望說 你不要跟消費者作對啦剛剛這個是可以的啦 說有紀錄的這個是有紀錄就可以 我跟你講你不要跟消費者作對你現在講了很多 我已經跟你講了很多你可以去做的結果你還在跟消費者斤斤計較"},{"start":394.124,"end":416.649,"text":"我再問你 你應該知道說中年有子跟泰山福壽福茂在三家的關係嘛對 他們是合資合資關係嘛 這三家就等於是中年有子的父母嘛 對不對三家合資才有中年有子嘛 對不對那中年 南橋在4月4號就已經自主檢驗出異常了而且他有向中年有子示警嘛 對不對那中年有子哪時候才跟你們通報"},{"start":418.248,"end":424.759,"text":"應該是5月13號這個南橋有驗出他有一個報告他是在6月10號的時候才通知這個扶壽"},{"start":431.924,"end":450.542,"text":"所以你罰他就是這個 他太晚講你沒有跟他講也沒有跟你們講6月10號扶壽知道之後再告訴這個中聯中聯呢 他又自己要去重驗直到6月30號才通知主管機關所以這件事情如果最早可以何時通報"},{"start":451.303,"end":471.817,"text":"五月十三號五月十三號就可以通報了所以他遲到六月三十號才通報才跟食藥署通報那我請教一下那這件事情因為你剛才知道嘛這三家都是中年有子的這個父母親嘛對不對那為什麼會延遲通報會不會跟他們五六月要舉行這個董監事會有相關這個我們現在有檢調去介入保護部有沒有過來"},{"start":482.142,"end":483.223,"text":"這有去查嗎跟委員報告本部在7月3號的時候台中地檢就已經有分案偵辦然後現在也有去調資料有沒有特別去查這三家"},{"start":500.148,"end":519.342,"text":"這個為什麼中聯郵址要延緩同保跟這三家五六月份要開董監事會議有沒有相關性這個部分比較涉及到偵查的細節根本就什麼偵查細節我可以從公開資訊去講泰山是5月29開股東會福壽是5月21開股東會福茂是6月26號開股東會"},{"start":524.997,"end":530.643,"text":"這是公開資訊啊這都查得出來 這沒有什麼什麼這個調查不公開的事情嘛時間這麼巧喔"},{"start":534.011,"end":558.444,"text":"我不太確定那個個案的狀況檢察官是怎麼蒐證的但是也許這些部分他們應該都有收集相關的事證如果委員需要的話我們回去看看是不是能夠請他們就公開可以公佈的資訊做一個整理有公開的你們有查到的可以讓大家知道的就應該讓大家知道我這很簡單我上網去查一下就參加就是五六月的時候舉行股東會議嘛啊這麼巧"},{"start":559.585,"end":573.54,"text":"6月30號才跟你們通報那我當然會聯想說是不是因為這30天要開股東會了所以我就嚴密我就是這個時間我就不報嘛等這個開完股東會議之後我才報啊這很合理的推測啊"},{"start":575.141,"end":593.113,"text":"謝謝委員提供這樣的資訊你們都比我們厲害你們一定都可以去查的我只是講說這為什麼會遲了大概快兩個月從5月13號開始為什麼遲了快兩個月才通報這很合理的推測嘛那我想說衛福部有沒有就這方面來做調查行政調查這部分"},{"start":594.858,"end":608.849,"text":"當然我們調查的是他該通報而未通報的時間點那針對他延遲通報那麼去先開罰了那麼另外也會按照有沒有知情而繼續販售這個會不會還會再加重處罰"},{"start":611.67,"end":633.172,"text":"最後再問 那污染源頭確定了嗎現在還在調查釐清當中然後還有多久時間我們把它從四月到六月底這所有的每個批次都重新驗所以才來對照它的這個源頭用的原料看看是製程還是原料上出的問題那多久會知道 大家會知道應該在一兩個禮拜 很快"},{"start":635.313,"end":644.497,"text":"檢驗我們會先做出來那明天檢驗報告就會出來了但是最後那個整個的這個源頭的離期還要一點時間那明天檢驗報告出來是什麼樣的報告"},{"start":645.222,"end":666.994,"text":"就是他從四月到六月底這每一個批次那麼都有一個這個樣本的簡體留著我們把它重新每一個都重驗剛剛我所講的部長跟消費者站在一起你中聯油脂就已經犯錯了這三家都有問題了他們就是生命共同體嘛講難聽點就是犯罪結構嘛你還要聽他們講"},{"start":667.975,"end":692.322,"text":"不會 消費者要換油 要去就是說我已經有買了 強制一定要有發票規定這些都不是符合目前大家所需要的 你要站在人民的角度去想好不好 我剛跟你講了這麼多了不是說這個一定要有問題的批號 4月到6月有問題的民眾不會去看說是不是這個批號啦 知道嗎好 我們一定會為民眾來處理 好 謝謝"},{"start":698.011,"end":698.312,"text":"謝謝李坤誠委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:44.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:44:44.534000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:46.135000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:44:54.299000+08:00","text":"請衛福部石部長，還有消費者保護處副處長，謝謝。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:55.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:44:58.280000+08:00","text":"請石部長、副處長。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:58.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:44:59.280000+08:00","text":"李員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:58.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:44:59.321000+08:00","text":"部長好、副處長好。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:44:59.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:10.966000+08:00","text":"我先從消費者的觀點出發，因為現在中聯油脂苯駢芘超標嘛，引起消費者恐慌，想說我已經買了這些油，那我怎麼退回去？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:12.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:26.883000+08:00","text":"現在有三家，泰山、福壽、福懋，可是這三家退的標準不一樣，有的要在這個批號裡才能退，有的不是這個批號，只要在這段時間都可以退。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:28.164000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:30.725000+08:00","text":"請問部長，要怎麼做才對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:30.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:36.547000+08:00","text":"對消費者來講，他不會去管批號啊，看這個批號到底是不是衛福部公布的批號。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:36.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:39.968000+08:00","text":"是不是在這段時間裡面能夠退就去退？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:42.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:47.751000+08:00","text":"以我們現在公布的是針對這個批號，後面都會附註有效期限。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:47.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:45:51.676000+08:00","text":"我就跟你講啊，不是每個消費者都會去看批號！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:45:53.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:11.685000+08:00","text":"至少我從這個資料看到了，泰山說不分印製的批次，只要4月到6月購買的皆可退；福壽就不行，福壽說一定要在這個批號、這個批次裡面才能退；福懋，也是說要有問題的批次才能夠退。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:12.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:13.769000+08:00","text":"為什麼泰山可以，其他兩家不行？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:15.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:26.504000+08:00","text":"當然我們原則是以有問題的要求強制要退，至於它有更寬的退法，我們尊重廠商的決定。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:26.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:28.905000+08:00","text":"不是尊重啦，我就跟你講……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:28.905000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:29.905000+08:00","text":"但是有問題的，是一定要退。","quality":0.091},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:29.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:31.687000+08:00","text":"那你為什麼要擴大性的預防下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:32.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:34.048000+08:00","text":"就是被我們所公布到的，就是有問題。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:35.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:39.911000+08:00","text":"今天公布到這個批次，你現在公布沒有問題，我怎麼知道明天有沒有問題，後天有沒有問題？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:39.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:39.931000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:42.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:44.881000+08:00","text":"泰山是不是今天又有一些跑出來了？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:45.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:46.482000+08:00","text":"對，所以我們現在就是擴大……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:47.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:50.826000+08:00","text":"對啊，所以我就說如果是4月到6月這段時間買的，能不能就是退？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:51.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:46:53.288000+08:00","text":"泰山就可以啊，為什麼福壽、福懋不行？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:46:55.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:03.577000+08:00","text":"現在4月到6月之間所有每一個批次，我們都在進行檢驗中，如果驗出來哪一批有，那一批就是要退。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:03.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:07.320000+08:00","text":"所以你的意思是我一定要去看符合這個批號，才能退就對了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:07.320000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:08.320000+08:00","text":"我們都會公布效期……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:07.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:09.442000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，這會引起民怨啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:12.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:12.288000+08:00","text":"消保官呢？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:17.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:26.723000+08:00","text":"就消費者來講，他們的確並不是很容易知道在這段時間買的油品是不是屬於公布的批號。對啊。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:28.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:33.590000+08:00","text":"所以站在一個比較友善的作法，泰山的作法是友善的。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:34.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:51.357000+08:00","text":"但是如果從確實買到有影響油的管制性看法來看，的確是只有買到有問題的油品才有退貨的權利，所以是從兩個層次看這樣的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:53.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:47:57.920000+08:00","text":"對啊，部長你現在還跟消費者斤斤計較嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:47:57.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:01.141000+08:00","text":"還在幫泰山、福懋、福壽，還站在他們那邊嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:02.992000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:09.236000+08:00","text":"當然這三家業者我們都是嚴查嚴辦，都沒有問題，我們都會擴大檢驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:09.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:13.378000+08:00","text":"只要是有問題的，通通都要下架，也要給消費者退費。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:13.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:19.101000+08:00","text":"所以你們現在還堅持查出來批號有問題的，才能去退就對了？","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:21.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:23.984000+08:00","text":"如果按照我們現在的法律規定，當然是有問題的一定要退。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:24.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:25.325000+08:00","text":"為什麼泰山可以這樣做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:27.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:29.027000+08:00","text":"剛剛也提到，這是泰山它……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:29.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:31.569000+08:00","text":"泰山可以這樣做，為什麼其他兩家不能這樣做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:36.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:39.728000+08:00","text":"這個要來……蛤？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:39.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:40.509000+08:00","text":"我們來要求看看。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:40.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:41.950000+08:00","text":"不是，你就是要要求嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:42.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:43.432000+08:00","text":"你現在還是要跟消費者斤斤計較。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:43.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:48:44.833000+08:00","text":"說到跟消費者斤斤計較的還有我一定要拿發票才能退嗎？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:48:44.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:00.944000+08:00","text":"對，如果認定的是一個產品，製造者當然就要負責任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:01.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:03.286000+08:00","text":"不是，我是說我拿發票才能退嗎？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:03.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:06.228000+08:00","text":"我已經是這個批次了，我拿發票才能退嗎？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:06.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:13.552000+08:00","text":"對，過去當然都是要認發票，不過那個產品很明確是哪一個廠、哪一個商家的，當然它應該要負責。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:13.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:15.073000+08:00","text":"我請副處長來回答好了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:17.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:34.022000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實以往消保處關於這種大型消費事件的退貨作法，除了要拿發票之外，另外一個比較彈性的作法，其實廠商應該都有所謂的供貨紀錄，譬如像……","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:34.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:34.283000+08:00","text":"有消費記錄嘛。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:34.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:43.252000+08:00","text":"對，如果這樣的消費紀錄可以指涉到某一個消費者的確有購買情況的話……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:43.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:49:45.114000+08:00","text":"我們現在很多電子消費其實都可以查到，都可以嘛。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳副處長星宏","start":"2026-07-08T14:49:45.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:04.372000+08:00","text":"就是雲端發票，或者是一些刷卡的紀錄，或者廠商的出貨跟銷售紀錄，這個如果可以勾稽得到的話，當然不是一定要有一個所謂的實體紙本發票啦，這個基本上都可以做為購買事實的佐證。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:05.253000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:18.504000+08:00","text":"部長，副處長講得很清楚了，不是一定要發票，可是現在還有很多通路商要消費者拿出發票，現在已經是7月份了，4月到6月，很多人的發票沒有中獎就丟掉了，結果現在有些通路商要求要拿發票才能退，合理嗎？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:18.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:30.121000+08:00","text":"剛剛副處長已經說不合理了，只要有消費紀錄就可以了，你要跟大家講，只要有消費紀錄就可以了！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:34.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:36.734000+08:00","text":"副處長已經講得很清楚了，你知不知道？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:37.355000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:38.698000+08:00","text":"有消費紀錄就可以了，不一定要拿發票。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:40.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:44.859000+08:00","text":"這個我們協調看看，讓地方消保處去協助，因為這個牽涉到好幾個……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:44.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:50:57.883000+08:00","text":"這個不是協調，他已經講得很清楚了，你只要有購買憑證、信用卡帳單、會員的消費紀錄都可以，還要去協調，這本來就是希望……你不要跟消費者作對啦！","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:50:59.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:01.384000+08:00","text":"剛剛這個是可以的啦，有紀錄的這個部分是可以的。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:01.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:08.627000+08:00","text":"對啊，有紀錄就可以，我跟你講，你不要跟消費者作對，你現在講的很多……我已經跟你講了很多你可以去做的，結果你還在跟消費者斤斤計較！","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:10.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:14.645000+08:00","text":"我再問你，你應該知道中聯油脂跟泰山、福壽及福懋這三家的關係嘛。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:15.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:16.505000+08:00","text":"對，他們是合資。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:16.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:23.207000+08:00","text":"合資關係嘛，這三家就等於是中聯油脂的父母嘛，三家合資才有中聯油脂嘛，對不對？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:24.887000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:30.848000+08:00","text":"南僑在4月4號就已經自主檢驗出異常了，而且有向中聯油脂示警，對不對？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:31.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:32.649000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂哪時候才向你們通報？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:34.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:39.717000+08:00","text":"應該是5月13號南僑有驗出，它有一個報告，那一次……","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:39.717000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:40.717000+08:00","text":"它4月的時候不就自主檢驗了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:40.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:40.759000+08:00","text":"它是在6月10號的時候才通知福壽。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:47.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:48.565000+08:00","text":"所以你罰它就是因為它太晚講？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:49.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:50.447000+08:00","text":"它太晚講。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:50.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:52.088000+08:00","text":"你沒有跟它講？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:52.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:51:52.989000+08:00","text":"也沒有跟你們講？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:51:52.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:04.400000+08:00","text":"6月10號福壽知道之後再告訴中聯，中聯又自己要去重驗，直到6月30號才通知主管機關。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:04.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:09.204000+08:00","text":"所以這件事情如果最早可以在何時通報？5月13號。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:09.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:10.345000+08:00","text":"5月13號就可以通報了？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:10.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:14.088000+08:00","text":"所以它遲到6月30號才跟食藥署通報？對。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:14.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:24.535000+08:00","text":"好，我請教一下，因為你也知道這三家都是中聯油脂的父母，為什麼會延遲通報？","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:24.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:26.456000+08:00","text":"會不會跟他們5、6月要舉行董監事會議有相關？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:26.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:27.377000+08:00","text":"這個現在是由檢調去介入調查。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:27.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:27.817000+08:00","text":"法務部今天有沒有派人來？","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:38.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:38.222000+08:00","text":"這個有去查嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"汪參事南均","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:38.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:52:39.023000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，本部在7月3號的時候，臺中地檢就已經有分案偵辦，現在也有去調資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:52:39.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:03.053000+08:00","text":"有沒有特別去查這三家，為什麼中聯油脂要延緩通報，跟這三家5、6月份要開董監事會議有沒有相關性？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"汪參事南均","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:04.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:05.795000+08:00","text":"這個部分比較涉及到偵查的細節。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:06.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:07.336000+08:00","text":"這沒有什麼偵查細節！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:07.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:26.343000+08:00","text":"我可以從公開資訊去講，泰山是5月29號開股東會、福壽是5月21號開股東會、福懋是6月26號開股東會，這是公開資訊啊，這都查的出來，這沒有什麼偵查不公開的事情嘛！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"汪參事南均","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:26.343000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:27.343000+08:00","text":"應該檢察官……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:26.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:26.623000+08:00","text":"時間這麼巧喔？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪參事南均","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:30.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:53:45.520000+08:00","text":"我不太確定個案狀況檢察官是怎麼蒐證的，但是也許這些部分他們應該都有蒐集相關的事證，如果委員需要的話，我們回去看看是不是能夠請他們就公開、可以公布的資訊做個整理再提供。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:53:45.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:09.520000+08:00","text":"有公開的、你們有查到且可以讓大家知道的，就應該讓大家知道，我提的這個很簡單，我上網去查一下，這三家就是5、6月的時候舉行股東會議嘛，這麼巧，6月30號才跟你們通報，我當然會聯想到是不是因為這三家要開股東會了，所以這個時間之前就不報嘛，等開完股東會議之後才報，這是很合理的推測啊！","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"汪參事南均","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:11.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:12.962000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提供這樣的資訊，我想……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:12.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:24.390000+08:00","text":"你們都比我們厲害，你們一定都可以去查的，我只是講說，為什麼會遲了大概快兩個月，從5月13號開始，為什麼遲了快兩個月才通報，這很合理的推測嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:25.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:27.032000+08:00","text":"請問衛福部有沒有就這方面來做調查？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:27.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:29.093000+08:00","text":"行政調查的部分。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:31.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:44.849000+08:00","text":"我們調查的是它該通報而未通報的時間點，針對它延遲通報先開罰了，另外也會按照有沒有知情而繼續販售，這個後面還會再加重處罰。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:47.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:51.054000+08:00","text":"好，最後再問，污染源頭有確定了嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:51.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:52.595000+08:00","text":"現在還在調查釐清當中。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:53.456000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:54:54.717000+08:00","text":"還要多久時間？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:54:54.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:05.868000+08:00","text":"我們把它從4月到6月底的每個批次都重新驗，再來對照源頭所用的原料，看看是製程還是原料上出了問題。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:05.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:07.390000+08:00","text":"多久會知道、大家能知道？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:08.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:09.152000+08:00","text":"應該再一、兩個禮拜，很快……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:09.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:11.313000+08:00","text":"還要再一、兩個禮拜？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:11.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:18.856000+08:00","text":"檢驗會先做出來，明天檢驗報告就會出來了，但是最後整個源頭的釐清還要一點時間。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:18.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:20.477000+08:00","text":"明天檢驗報告出來是什麼樣的報告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:21.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:31.768000+08:00","text":"就是它從4月到6月底的每一個批次都有一個樣本的檢體留著，我們把每一個都重新檢驗。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:31.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:42.994000+08:00","text":"好，剛剛我所講的，部長，請跟消費者站在一起，中聯油脂就已經犯錯了，這三家都有問題了，他們就是生命共同體嘛，講難聽一點就是犯罪結構嘛，你還在替他們講！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:42.994000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:55:45.836000+08:00","text":"不會、不會，我們絕對站在民眾的立場。","quality":0.133},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:55:45.836000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:00.040000+08:00","text":"消費者要換油，對於已經有買的人，強制一定要有發票的規定，這些都不是符合目前大家所需要的，你要站在人民的角度去想，好不好？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:56:00.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:08.042000+08:00","text":"我剛剛已經跟你講這麼多了，不是還說一定要有問題的批號，4月到6月有問題的，民眾不會去看是不是這個批號啦，知道嗎？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T14:56:08.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:08.282000+08:00","text":"好，我們一定會為民眾來處理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員坤城","start":"2026-07-08T14:56:08.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:08.322000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T14:56:14.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:14.312000+08:00","text":"謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T14:56:14.812000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T14:56:17.669143+08:00","text":"現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1676,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（14時44分）謝謝主席。請衛福部石部長，還有消費者保護處副處長，謝謝。"],["主席：請石部長、副處長。"],["石部長崇良：李員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好、副處長好。我先從消費者的觀點出發，因為現在中聯油脂苯駢芘超標嘛，引起消費者恐慌，想說我已經買了這些油，那我怎麼退回去？現在有三家，泰山、福壽、福懋，可是這三家退的標準不一樣，有的要在這個批號裡才能退，有的不是這個批號，只要在這段時間都可以退。請問部長，要怎麼做才對？對消費者來講，他不會去管批號啊，看這個批號到底是不是衛福部公布的批號。是不是在這段時間裡面能夠退就去退？"],["石部長崇良：以我們現在公布的是針對這個批號，後面都會附註有效期限。"],["李委員坤城：我就跟你講啊，不是每個消費者都會去看批號！至少我從這個資料看到了，泰山說不分印製的批次，只要4月到6月購買的皆可退；福壽就不行，福壽說一定要在這個批號、這個批次裡面才能退；福懋，也是說要有問題的批次才能夠退。為什麼泰山可以，其他兩家不行？"],["石部長崇良：當然我們原則是以有問題的要求強制要退，至於它有更寬的退法，我們尊重廠商的決定。"],["李委員坤城：不是尊重啦，我就跟你講……"],["石部長崇良：但是有問題的，是一定要退。"],["李委員坤城：那你為什麼要擴大性的預防下架？"],["石部長崇良：就是被我們所公布到的，就是有問題。"],["李委員坤城：今天公布到這個批次，你現在公布沒有問題，我怎麼知道明天有沒有問題，後天有沒有問題？對不對？泰山是不是今天又有一些跑出來了？"],["石部長崇良：對，所以我們現在就是擴大……"],["李委員坤城：對啊，所以我就說如果是4月到6月這段時間買的，能不能就是退？泰山就可以啊，為什麼福壽、福懋不行？"],["石部長崇良：現在4月到6月之間所有每一個批次，我們都在進行檢驗中，如果驗出來哪一批有，那一批就是要退。"],["李委員坤城：所以你的意思是我一定要去看符合這個批號，才能退就對了。"],["石部長崇良：我們都會公布效期……"],["李委員坤城：我跟你講，這會引起民怨啊！消保官呢？"],["陳副處長星宏：就消費者來講，他們的確並不是很容易知道在這段時間買的油品是不是屬於公布的批號。"],["李委員坤城：對啊。"],["陳副處長星宏：所以站在一個比較友善的作法，泰山的作法是友善的。但是如果從確實買到有影響油的管制性看法來看，的確是只有買到有問題的油品才有退貨的權利，所以是從兩個層次看這樣的問題。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，部長你現在還跟消費者斤斤計較嗎？還在幫泰山、福懋、福壽，還站在他們那邊嗎？"],["石部長崇良：當然這三家業者我們都是嚴查嚴辦，都沒有問題，我們都會擴大檢驗。只要是有問題的，通通都要下架，也要給消費者退費。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們現在還堅持查出來批號有問題的，才能去退就對了？"],["石部長崇良：如果按照我們現在的法律規定，當然是有問題的一定要退。"],["李委員坤城：為什麼泰山可以這樣做？"],["石部長崇良：剛剛也提到，這是泰山它……"],["李委員坤城：泰山可以這樣做，為什麼其他兩家不能這樣做？"],["石部長崇良：這個要來……"],["李委員坤城：蛤？"],["石部長崇良：我們來要求看看。"],["李委員坤城：不是，你就是要要求嘛！你現在還是要跟消費者斤斤計較。說到跟消費者斤斤計較的還有我一定要拿發票才能退嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對，如果認定的是一個產品，製造者當然就要負責任。"],["李委員坤城：不是，我是說我拿發票才能退嗎？我已經是這個批次了，我拿發票才能退嗎？"],["石部長崇良：對，過去當然都是要認發票，不過那個產品很明確是哪一個廠、哪一個商家的，當然它應該要負責。"],["李委員坤城：我請副處長來回答好了。"],["陳副處長星宏：報告委員，其實以往消保處關於這種大型消費事件的退貨作法，除了要拿發票之外，另外一個比較彈性的作法，其實廠商應該都有所謂的供貨紀錄，譬如像……"],["李委員坤城：有消費記錄嘛。"],["陳副處長星宏：對，如果這樣的消費紀錄可以指涉到某一個消費者的確有購買情況的話……"],["李委員坤城：我們現在很多電子消費其實都可以查到，都可以嘛。"],["陳副處長星宏：就是雲端發票，或者是一些刷卡的紀錄，或者廠商的出貨跟銷售紀錄，這個如果可以勾稽得到的話，當然不是一定要有一個所謂的實體紙本發票啦，這個基本上都可以做為購買事實的佐證。"],["李委員坤城：部長，副處長講得很清楚了，不是一定要發票，可是現在還有很多通路商要消費者拿出發票，現在已經是7月份了，4月到6月，很多人的發票沒有中獎就丟掉了，結果現在有些通路商要求要拿發票才能退，合理嗎？剛剛副處長已經說不合理了，只要有消費紀錄就可以了，你要跟大家講，只要有消費紀錄就可以了！副處長已經講得很清楚了，你知不知道？有消費紀錄就可以了，不一定要拿發票。"],["石部長崇良：這個我們協調看看，讓地方消保處去協助，因為這個牽涉到好幾個……"],["李委員坤城：這個不是協調，他已經講得很清楚了，你只要有購買憑證、信用卡帳單、會員的消費紀錄都可以，還要去協調，這本來就是希望……你不要跟消費者作對啦！"],["石部長崇良：剛剛這個是可以的啦，有紀錄的這個部分是可以的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊，有紀錄就可以，我跟你講，你不要跟消費者作對，你現在講的很多……我已經跟你講了很多你可以去做的，結果你還在跟消費者斤斤計較！我再問你，你應該知道中聯油脂跟泰山、福壽及福懋這三家的關係嘛。"],["石部長崇良：對，他們是合資。"],["李委員坤城：合資關係嘛，這三家就等於是中聯油脂的父母嘛，三家合資才有中聯油脂嘛，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["李委員坤城：南僑在4月4號就已經自主檢驗出異常了，而且有向中聯油脂示警，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["李委員坤城：中聯油脂哪時候才向你們通報？"],["石部長崇良：應該是5月13號南僑有驗出，它有一個報告，那一次……"],["李委員坤城：它4月的時候不就自主檢驗了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：它是在6月10號的時候才通知福壽。"],["李委員坤城：所以你罰它就是因為它太晚講？"],["石部長崇良：它太晚講。"],["李委員坤城：你沒有跟它講？也沒有跟你們講？"],["石部長崇良：6月10號福壽知道之後再告訴中聯，中聯又自己要去重驗，直到6月30號才通知主管機關。"],["李委員坤城：所以這件事情如果最早可以在何時通報？"],["石部長崇良：5月13號。"],["李委員坤城：5月13號就可以通報了？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以它遲到6月30號才跟食藥署通報？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，我請教一下，因為你也知道這三家都是中聯油脂的父母，為什麼會延遲通報？會不會跟他們5、6月要舉行董監事會議有相關？"],["石部長崇良：這個現在是由檢調去介入調查。"],["李委員坤城：法務部今天有沒有派人來？這個有去查嗎？"],["汪參事南均：跟委員報告，本部在7月3號的時候，臺中地檢就已經有分案偵辦，現在也有去調資料。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有特別去查這三家，為什麼中聯油脂要延緩通報，跟這三家5、6月份要開董監事會議有沒有相關性？"],["汪參事南均：這個部分比較涉及到偵查的細節。"],["李委員坤城：這沒有什麼偵查細節！我可以從公開資訊去講，泰山是5月29號開股東會、福壽是5月21號開股東會、福懋是6月26號開股東會，這是公開資訊啊，這都查的出來，這沒有什麼偵查不公開的事情嘛！"],["汪參事南均：應該檢察官……"],["李委員坤城：時間這麼巧喔？"],["汪參事南均：我不太確定個案狀況檢察官是怎麼蒐證的，但是也許這些部分他們應該都有蒐集相關的事證，如果委員需要的話，我們回去看看是不是能夠請他們就公開、可以公布的資訊做個整理再提供。"],["李委員坤城：有公開的、你們有查到且可以讓大家知道的，就應該讓大家知道，我提的這個很簡單，我上網去查一下，這三家就是5、6月的時候舉行股東會議嘛，這麼巧，6月30號才跟你們通報，我當然會聯想到是不是因為這三家要開股東會了，所以這個時間之前就不報嘛，等開完股東會議之後才報，這是很合理的推測啊！"],["汪參事南均：謝謝委員提供這樣的資訊，我想……"],["李委員坤城：你們都比我們厲害，你們一定都可以去查的，我只是講說，為什麼會遲了大概快兩個月，從5月13號開始，為什麼遲了快兩個月才通報，這很合理的推測嘛！請問衛福部有沒有就這方面來做調查？行政調查的部分。"],["石部長崇良：我們調查的是它該通報而未通報的時間點，針對它延遲通報先開罰了，另外也會按照有沒有知情而繼續販售，這個後面還會再加重處罰。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後再問，污染源頭有確定了嗎？"],["石部長崇良：現在還在調查釐清當中。"],["李委員坤城：還要多久時間？"],["石部長崇良：我們把它從4月到6月底的每個批次都重新驗，再來對照源頭所用的原料，看看是製程還是原料上出了問題。"],["李委員坤城：多久會知道、大家能知道？"],["石部長崇良：應該再一、兩個禮拜，很快……"],["李委員坤城：還要再一、兩個禮拜？"],["石部長崇良：檢驗會先做出來，明天檢驗報告就會出來了，但是最後整個源頭的釐清還要一點時間。"],["李委員坤城：明天檢驗報告出來是什麼樣的報告？"],["石部長崇良：就是它從4月到6月底的每一個批次都有一個樣本的檢體留著，我們把每一個都重新檢驗。"],["李委員坤城：好，剛剛我所講的，部長，請跟消費者站在一起，中聯油脂就已經犯錯了，這三家都有問題了，他們就是生命共同體嘛，講難聽一點就是犯罪結構嘛，你還在替他們講！"],["石部長崇良：不會、不會，我們絕對站在民眾的立場。"],["李委員坤城：消費者要換油，對於已經有買的人，強制一定要有發票的規定，這些都不是符合目前大家所需要的，你要站在人民的角度去想，好不好？我剛剛已經跟你講這麼多了，不是還說一定要有問題的批號，4月到6月有問題的，民眾不會去看是不是這個批號啦，知道嗎？"],["石部長崇良：好，我們一定會為民眾來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。","現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}