{"error":false,"id":["170390"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170390,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170390","日期":"2026-07-08","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-26-18","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":18,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-08T15:45:19+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-08T15:57:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/4fafa81be08c82105531fd41a2fc59438c89d092fec882f476d06c5fcdc2d6fcc8e9d6e5b85468935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"15:45:19 - 15:57:50","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":6.79784375,"end":8.14784375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.26159375,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":13.15971875,"end":13.176593750000002,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.070968750000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":14.796593750000003,"end":18.762218750000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":18.96471875,"end":36.04221875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":29.76471875,"end":30.11909375,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":36.17721875,"end":43.36596875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":43.36596875,"end":43.66971875,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":43.66971875,"end":54.23346875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":54.72284375,"end":55.48221875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":55.836593750000006,"end":57.38909375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":57.659093750000004,"end":58.182218750000004,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":58.33409375,"end":61.422218750000006,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":61.99596875,"end":66.11346875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":66.38346875,"end":68.37471875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":69.20159375,"end":71.46284375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":71.85096875,"end":75.34409375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":75.69846875,"end":78.76971875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":78.76971875000001,"end":80.15346875,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":80.57534375,"end":86.49846875,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":86.21159375,"end":109.68471875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":109.19534375,"end":109.36409375000001,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":109.68471875,"end":109.73534375000001,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":109.73534375000001,"end":109.75221875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":109.75221875000001,"end":109.76909375000001,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":109.76909375000001,"end":109.78596875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":109.78596875000001,"end":109.87034375,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":109.87034375,"end":109.92096875,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":110.19096875000001,"end":112.80659375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":113.16096875000001,"end":116.46846875000001,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":117.10971875000001,"end":118.07159375,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳委員冠廷","start":118.67909375,"end":141.08909375000002,"speaker_score":0.904},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":137.71409375000002,"end":137.74784375000002,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":138.69284375,"end":138.72659375,"speaker_score":0.816},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":138.91221875000002,"end":139.06409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部長好部長我現在在看這個整個時間軸那大概是4月4號那中年大家生產這一個批次的是大豆的沙拉油然後在8號到10號那陸續出貨給幾個重大的這個中油的廠商包含福壽跟泰山等等大概1300多噸"},{"start":36.269,"end":60.774,"text":"那4月22號他們的這個報告他們送驗的報告是符合標準的那到5月中旬到6月包含到6月10號這個南橋開始有發現問題然後他們報給的是再上游一點的廠商那中游的廠商再報給這個更上游的這個中聯這樣子一個報一個"},{"start":62.054,"end":89.621,"text":"那我想請教我們現在就是重新來理這件事情就是說第一時間有疑慮發生問題下游的給中游中游的給上游還是下游的給主管機關中游的給主管機關上游的給主管機關跟委員報告按照食安法的規定只要發現不論他是上中下游都是通報主管機關所以根據這個市民安全的衛生管理法的第七條第五項"},{"start":90.481,"end":115.065,"text":"如果發現有危害有這個安全衛生之餘的第一時間就要即刻嘛這邊寫是因即刻主動停止製造然後按照這個販賣然後加工辦理回收然後通知縣轄市直轄市主管機關大概是這樣子的流程沒有錯嗎對我一個問題想要請教明明這個地方法規上面這麼清楚第7條第5項第47條"},{"start":118.766,"end":147.906,"text":"有這個違反的這個罰則包含如果違反第7條第5項我們現在先不到後面說你這個有鈔票的部分你要罰多少錢先不到那邊只要你發現問題的第7條第5項的在依照這個法規的第47條的罰則就是台幣3萬元以上300萬以下的這個罰款那情節重大還可以讓他停業為什麼上游中游下游的這些廠商明明知道有這麼重大的這個瑕疵他們在第一時間"},{"start":149.307,"end":158.057,"text":"还是想要在业内往上报甚至还是会觉得说如果不要让主管机关知道他自己在厌食搞不好就没事这个心态是什么原因"},{"start":159.225,"end":186.704,"text":"跟委員說明當然這個現在目前檢調也介入在調查了解這中間不過呢從他們的資金結構大概也可以去推測因為他們在6月15號包含這個中聯啊這個福壽福茂他們有開一個平保的會就是他們內部的會議啦這是因為他們的資金結構是在一起的所以這個可以合理的推論呢因為他們是"},{"start":188.246,"end":202.386,"text":"其實就是同一個組成啦所以他在報的時候呢其實都是在內部裡面去報沒有要這個直接通報給衛生署管機關所以我們才會予以重罰為什麼我現在來問你就是說"},{"start":203.787,"end":219.881,"text":"這個事情是這樣子如果越早第一時間他們通報主管機關主管機關就可以越早的來去做處理處理的方法就是叫他們盡快回收那停止製造 釐清整個狀況可是他們選擇的還是要在內部管理解決在這個部分"},{"start":221.021,"end":235.231,"text":"我要知道的是衛福部想要怎麼樣來去防範這樣子的事情就是說明明就有罰則但是為什麼他們還是寧願能拖一天就算一天搞不好會大事化巧小事化這個狀況是這樣子"},{"start":238.211,"end":255.041,"text":"在業內或者是在這個廠商之內的彼此之間希望說搞不好有這樣可以有有有迴轉的這個餘地它其實就是在食安上面的一個重要的破口就包含交通安全也是一樣最近高鐵站也是有這個帶頭的這個這個工班的這些相關的督導"},{"start":260.044,"end":282.372,"text":"他也是不經同意之後就先斷電然後要跟其他的這個高鐵的員工然後說你們不要講出去這件事情就當作沒事後來也是被查處被查處之後當然是重大的大過那家用安全也是食品安全也是其實怎麼樣能夠讓這個通報的體制是友善的就是說他第一時間發現問題的時候"},{"start":284.485,"end":297.836,"text":"我先不管究責我要先趕快讓我的商域至少在第一時間我至少要負責任我必須要最快的時間通報除了加高罰則之外你們有什麼樣的辦法嗎"},{"start":299.04,"end":315.073,"text":"我們現在也從這個事件裡面發覺到其實我們原本的規定三級品管裡面的第二級就是第三方檢驗那在這個過程當中其實他也有送第三方檢驗可是這個檢驗報告直接回到業者"},{"start":315.914,"end":342.65,"text":"所以我們現在也在研議其實第三方檢驗如果直接是跟主管機關通報因為他是沒有責任的他跟商品無關那他直接可以通報給這個主管機關主管機關就可以即時的掌握我們回到這個部分來繼續講這是一個重點剛剛提到說他們拿去復檢復檢是在他們自己的公司裡面的實驗室復檢還是到第三方"},{"start":342.93,"end":369.802,"text":"到第三方南橋是這樣嗎南橋第一次是他自己檢驗然後第二次他就送外部了中聯呢中聯也是應該是這樣5月13號驗出的南橋是他的自己的檢驗室那他發現有這個數值偏高超標他就在6月再次送到外部檢驗所以他有兩次檢驗一次是他內部自己的一個是送第三方的"},{"start":370.382,"end":397.501,"text":"那麼之後呢他就通知了這個福壽福壽就通知了中聯那這時候中聯呢他也是一樣他送了一次在愛滋味另外又送了一個外部第三方SGS所以這個都有外部檢驗的這個痕跡啦所以外部檢驗包含SGS這個是標準的檢驗第三方檢驗那時候就已經知道有問題了對但是第三方檢驗他沒有辦法直接提供給衛福部因為委託方是"},{"start":398.081,"end":409.305,"text":"是那個業者他是把報告送給業者所以未來我們要去強化的就是這一塊的連結這個標準檢驗剛才我們提到SGS它是什麼樣的性質它是什麼樣的組織這個是我們認可的這個檢驗實驗室認證實驗室認證實驗室那這個實驗室它是"},{"start":421.45,"end":428.678,"text":"這個組織它是在民營的機構只要經過認證的就是這個組織對對對它可以是其他的企業它可以是其他的"},{"start":429.5,"end":450.828,"text":"他接受很多方的檢驗委託他是專門做檢驗的OK好那剛才提到這幾個從愛滋味到這個第三方的檢驗等等的所以你們現在未來就是很明確的只要收到異常素質第三方檢驗第一時間就要給微婦是這個就是我們的一個標準的做法因為它沒有利害相關嘛對它沒有利害的關係OK好"},{"start":452.168,"end":467.87,"text":"那內部呢內部他其實他第一時間他已經掌握到說欸有數值偏高在那一剎那他就必須要給主管機關對不對對理論上他那個時候就有主管機關對就是需要通報主管機關我今天講那麼多的原因是因為我必須要確保說未來"},{"start":469.181,"end":487.149,"text":"每一間這些公司他可能是他可能是大廠那他他心中他一定會有在焦慮想說啊我這樣的話會有什麼樣的後果但是我們必須要讓這些食品公司很清楚的知道你如果第一時間檢驗有問題你就通報的話他的法則"},{"start":488.75,"end":509.057,"text":"會比你不通報還比較比較不會這麼嚴厲但萬一你第一時間不通報你第一時間根本就是還想要掩蓋的話那就必須要用最重的這法規裡面最重的法條來去予以懲罰那這是第一點那第二就是在法規的部分我們現在法規的部分裡面有說在第七條的第五項應急"},{"start":510.987,"end":532.708,"text":"主動停止製造然後我們的第47條裡面有講到要處以多少的罰款我們認為接下來的修法他不只是說結果犯結果犯就是說你到時候你就是超過這個超過原本的這個添加物或者是你的自來標準超過的話要給予你重罰這是一個部分"},{"start":533.308,"end":551.218,"text":"但是這個部分更重要的是說當我們發現到問題的時候因為我們不知道它是它現在很清楚就是原料端是製成端是保存方式我們現在還不能釐清因為現在才剛開始而已我們才在剛開始調查但我們要讓他們知道說行為比結果"},{"start":552.469,"end":578.052,"text":"更糟糕就是說你知情不報比你因為某些因素導致你的品管出現重大瑕疵的時候更糟糕所以我們是希望你們針對這一個行政院這個衛福部你們針對這個第七條第五款如果沒有發現有危害之餘的時候你沒有主動停止製造販賣跟回收沒有第一時間通報職家縣市政府的主管機關的時候"},{"start":579.468,"end":593.148,"text":"我不認為這樣子還是只用儲新台幣三萬以上三百萬以下的罰款我認為這個部分是要增高的這個部分增高讓他們知道說可是如果你第一時間做這件事情的話"},{"start":594.656,"end":613.276,"text":"那接下來的司法調查的話那至少可以酌情對不對那如果你第一時間你選擇掩蓋像我們這樣子又花了一兩個月還要再一個批次一個批次這負數行政成本太大了嘛行政成本太大因為你第一時間沒有講你第一時間講的話就不用再中游下游載到我們"},{"start":614.598,"end":630.96,"text":"連一般上班族會使用的這些早餐全部都被全部都中了可是如果你第一時間就講的話全部這件事情都不會發生你這件事情不會發生的話我們就有事情就還是可以來去做解決就可以在最開始的時候來把它做破口的把它堵起來"},{"start":631.58,"end":657.047,"text":"所以這個部分部長我覺得你第一時間說法的上面你們的這個衛福部必須要跟這個你們的法律相關的這些組來討論一下怎麼樣去做這樣子的修正最前端就要阻止最前端就要通報最前端就要把破口把它堵起來對委員的指教我們完全同意所以才會我們對中聯是加重處分到一億六千萬就是因為這樣你是因為"},{"start":660.388,"end":671.751,"text":"結果不報 因為我們有好多因素一起考量有加權處分其中一個就是除了延遲還有隱匿這件事情去加重才會有這麼高額的罰款"},{"start":674.554,"end":698.517,"text":"他都是如果是按照違反第15條那麼他的罰則在44條他是從六萬到兩億所以這個是一個range然後沒有通報的罰則是三萬到三百萬所以我們是一併考慮之後才會罰一億六千多萬你是因為第44條把他罰對對對然後我考量到他的通報跟盈利這樣"},{"start":699.918,"end":726.654,"text":"對我的意思是說除了通報跟隱匿之外我們的第47條的這個裡面的第7條的第5項規定我們要給他調整讓他們知道說如果你前端做好後端他的罰則是怎麼樣前端做不好後端的罰則就是你剛剛講的可以處到1億多甚至是最高可以到2億以下的罰款讓他們知道說有這個情節上面的變化這樣子才可以讓"},{"start":727.614,"end":747.67,"text":"不然其實你看喔從南橋開始第一時間本來就可以去通報啦他第一時間如果只要任何一個上游中游下游只要任何一個時間他不要再響響都不要響就通報主管機關的話那就直接就可以提早把他檢討可是他們就會就多復檢一次然後復檢的機關又沒辦法給你們所以這個我們未來都會好好的檢討謝謝謝謝委員指教謝謝陳冠廷委員的諮詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:45:26.600000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:45:27.541000+08:00","text":"請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T15:45:27.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:45:28.001000+08:00","text":"請石崇良部長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:45:28.001000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T15:45:33.862000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:45:33.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:45:34.043000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:45:34.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:46:19.774000+08:00","text":"部長，我現在看這整個時間軸，大概是4月4日中聯生產這個批次的大豆沙拉油，然後在8日到10日陸續出貨給幾個重大的中游廠商，包含福壽跟泰山等廠商，大概一千三百多噸，4月22日他們送驗的報告是符合標準的，到5月中旬到6月，包含到6月10日，南僑開始發現問題，然後他們報給的是再上游一點的廠商，那中游的廠商再報給更上游的中聯，這樣子一個報一個。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:46:22.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:46:32.757000+08:00","text":"我們現在重新來理這件事情，第一時間有疑慮發生問題，下游的給中游，中游的給上游？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:46:33.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:46:38.158000+08:00","text":"還是下游的給主管機關，中游的給主管機關，上游的給主管機關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:46:38.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:46:45+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，按照食安法的規定，只要發現，不論是上、中、下游，都是通報主管機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:46:45+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:47:09.405000+08:00","text":"對，所以根據食品安全衛生管理法第七條第五項，如果發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞，第一時間應即刻主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關，大概是這樣子的流程，沒有錯吧？對。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:47:09.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:47:40.761000+08:00","text":"我有一個問題想要請教，明明法規這麼清楚，第七條第五項，在第四十七條有違反的罰則，包含違反第七條第五項的罰則，還沒有到後面說的超標部分要罰多少錢，先不到那邊，只要發現違反第七條第五項，再依照第四十七條的罰則，就是處臺幣三萬元以上、三百萬元以下的罰款，如果情節重大，還可以命令廠商停業。","quality":0.719},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:47:40.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:47:57.037000+08:00","text":"為什麼上游、中游、下游這些廠商明明知道有這麼重大的瑕疵，他們在第一時間還是想要在業內往上報，甚至還會覺得如果不要讓主管機關知道，他們自己再驗一次搞不好就沒事，這個心態是什麼原因？","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:47:58.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:48:40.244000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，目前檢調也介入來調查瞭解，不過從他們的資金結構，大概也可以去推測，因為在6月15日，包含中聯、福壽、福懋有開一個品保的會議，就是他們內部的會議，這是因為他們的資金結構是在一起的，所以可以合理地推論他們其實就是同一個組成，所以在報的時候都是在內部裡面去報，沒有直接通報給衛生主管機關，所以我們才會予以重罰。OK。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:48:40.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:48:58.341000+08:00","text":"我現在的問題就是說，這個事情是這樣子，如果越早通報，第一時間他們就通報主管機關，主管機關就可以越早去處理，處理的方法包含叫他們儘快回收、停止製造，釐清整個狀況，可是他們選擇的還是要在內部管理解決。","quality":0.91},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:48:58.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:49:04.644000+08:00","text":"在這個部分，我要知道的是，衛福部想要怎麼樣去防範這樣子的事情？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:49:05.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:49:13.150000+08:00","text":"就是明明就有罰則，但是為什麼他們還是寧願能拖一天就算一天，以為搞不好會大事化小、小事化無？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:49:14.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:49:29.418000+08:00","text":"這個狀況是這樣子，在業內或者是在廠商彼此之間，希望搞不好有迴轉的餘地，這其實就是在食安上面的一個重要破口。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:49:30.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:49:52.789000+08:00","text":"包含交通安全也是一樣，最近高鐵站也是有帶頭的工班督導不經同意就先斷電，然後跟其他高鐵員工說不要講出去，這件事情就當作沒事，後來也是被查處，被查處之後，當然是記重大的大過。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:49:53.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:50:00.092000+08:00","text":"交通安全是這樣，食品安全也是一樣，怎麼樣能夠讓通報的體制是友善的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:50:00.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:50:14.053000+08:00","text":"譬如說，第一時間發現問題的時候，先不管究責，要先趕快維持商譽，至少在第一時間要負責任，必須要以最快的時間通報。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:50:14.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:50:16.836000+08:00","text":"除了加高罰則之外，你們有什麼樣的辦法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:50:18.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:50:48.502000+08:00","text":"我們現在也從這個事件裡面發覺到，其實我們原本的規定，三級品管裡面的第二級就是第三方檢驗，在這個過程當中，其實業者也有送第三方檢驗，可是這個檢驗報告直接回到業者，所以我們現在也在研議，其實第三方檢驗如果直接是跟主管機關通報，因為檢驗機構是沒有責任的，跟商品無關，可以直接通報給主管機關，主管機關就可以即時掌握。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:50:48.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:01.630000+08:00","text":"我們回到這一個部分繼續講，這是一個重點，剛剛提到說他們拿去複檢，複檢是在他們自己公司裡面的實驗室複檢，還是到第三方？","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:01.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:02.450000+08:00","text":"到第三方。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:02.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:04.131000+08:00","text":"南僑是這樣嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:04.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:08.353000+08:00","text":"南僑第一次是自己檢驗，然後第二次就送外部了。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:09.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:09.673000+08:00","text":"中聯呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:10.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:11.094000+08:00","text":"中聯也是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:12.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:28.562000+08:00","text":"應該是這樣，5月13日驗出的，南僑是在自己的實驗室，發現數值偏高、超標，就在6月再次送到外部檢驗，所以有兩次檢驗，一次是在內部自己的實驗室，一次是送第三方。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:29.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:45.153000+08:00","text":"之後它就通知福壽，福壽就通知了中聯，這時候中聯也是一樣，送了一次在愛之味，另外又送了外部的第三方SGS，所以都有外部檢驗。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:46.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:49.536000+08:00","text":"所以外部檢驗包含SGS，這個是標準的檢驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:49.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:50.336000+08:00","text":"第三方檢驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:50.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:51.998000+08:00","text":"那時候就已經知道有問題了？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:51.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:51:56.481000+08:00","text":"但是第三方檢驗機構沒有辦法直接提供報告給衛福部，因為委託方是……","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:51:57.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:03.943000+08:00","text":"是業者，它是把報告送給業者，所以未來我們要去強化的就是這一塊的連結。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:04.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:06.664000+08:00","text":"剛才我們提到SGS，它是什麼樣的性質？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:06.664000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:07.365000+08:00","text":"它是什麼樣的組織？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:07.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:07.785000+08:00","text":"這個是我們認可的認證實驗室。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:07.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:07.885000+08:00","text":"認證實驗室？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:20.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:25.115000+08:00","text":"這個組織是民營的機構，只要經過認證的，就是這個組織？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:25.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:27.658000+08:00","text":"可以是其他的企業，可以是其他的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:28.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:32.001000+08:00","text":"它接受很多方的檢驗委託，是專門做檢驗的。OK。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:33.662000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:44.426000+08:00","text":"剛才提到的這幾個，從愛之味到第三方的檢驗等等，所以你們未來就是很明確的，只要收到異常數值，第三方檢驗第一時間就要給衛福部？是。","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:45.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:47.667000+08:00","text":"這個就是標準做法，因為他們沒有利害相關嘛？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:48.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:49.367000+08:00","text":"對，沒有利害的關係。OK。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:51.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:52:51.909000+08:00","text":"那內部呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:52:52.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:53:00.040000+08:00","text":"內部其實第一時間已經掌握到有數值偏高，在那一剎那就必須要給主管機關了，對不對？對。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:53:00.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:53:01.502000+08:00","text":"理論上那個時候就要給主管機關。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:53:01.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:53:03.385000+08:00","text":"對，就是需要通報主管機關。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:53:03.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:53:42.075000+08:00","text":"我今天講那麼多的原因，是因為我必須要確保，未來每一間公司，它可能是大廠，他們心中一定會有焦慮，想說這樣的話會有什麼樣的後果，但是我們必須要讓這些食品公司很清楚地知道，如果第一時間檢驗有問題就通報的話，比不通報好，罰則比較不會這麼嚴厲，但萬一第一時間不通報，還想要掩蓋的話，就必須用法規裡面最重的罰則來懲罰，這是第一點。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:53:42.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:53:55.652000+08:00","text":"第二個就是在法規的部分，現在第七條第五項有規定，應即主動停止製造，在第四十七條裡面有講到要處以多少的罰款。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:53:56.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:54:38.816000+08:00","text":"我們認為接下來的修法不只針對結果犯，所謂結果犯就是添加物如果超過原本的標準要給予重罰，這是一個部分，但是這個部分更重要的是，當我們發現到問題的時候要如何處理，因為是在原料端、製程端或是保存方式，我們現在還不能釐清，因為現在才剛開始調查而已，但我們要讓他們知道行為比結果更糟糕，知情不報比因為某些因素導致品管出現重大瑕疵更糟糕。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:54:39.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:55:18.902000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望行政院和衛福部針對第七條第五項規定，在發現產品有危害之虞的時候，沒有主動停止製造、販賣跟回收，沒有第一時間通報直轄市、縣（市）政府的主管機關，如果還是只處新臺幣三萬元以上三百萬以下的罰款而已，我認為這個部分是要增高的，這個部分增高，讓他們知道如果第一時間做這件事情的話，在接下來的司法調查，至少可以酌情處理，對不對？是。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:55:18.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:55:26.290000+08:00","text":"如果第一時間選擇掩蓋，像我們這樣子又花了一、兩個月，還要再一個批次、一個批次去查，付出的行政成本太大了。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:55:27.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:55:38.745000+08:00","text":"行政成本太大是因為第一時間沒有講，如果第一時間講的話，就不會到中游、下游，連一般上班族會食用的早餐全部都中了。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:55:39.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:55:49.960000+08:00","text":"如果第一時間就講的話，這些事情全部都不會發生，這些事情不會發生的話，事情就還是可以解決，就可以在最開始的時候來把破口堵起來。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:55:50.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:08.145000+08:00","text":"所以這個部分，部長，我覺得你第一時間在修法上面，衛福部必須要跟你們法律相關的組來討論一下怎麼樣去做這樣子的修正，最前端就要阻止，最前端就要通報，最前端就要把破口堵起來。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:08.145000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:15.747000+08:00","text":"對委員的指教，我們完全同意，所以我們才會對中聯加重處分到1億6,000萬，就是因為這樣，隱匿不報。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:15.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:19.388000+08:00","text":"你是因為結果嘛。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:19.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:30.731000+08:00","text":"沒有，不只是結果，我們有好多個因素一起考量，有加權處分，其中一個就是除了延遲還有隱匿這件事情去加重，才會有這麼高額的罰鍰。","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:34.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:52.833000+08:00","text":"如果是按照違反第十五條，該條的罰則在第四十四條，是從六萬到二億，這是一個range，沒有通報的罰則是三萬到三百萬，所以我們是一併考慮之後才會罰一億六千多萬，是這樣來的。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:52.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:54.755000+08:00","text":"你是因為第四十四條把它罰了？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:54.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:56:57.077000+08:00","text":"對，然後我考量到它的通報跟隱匿。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:56:58.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:20.751000+08:00","text":"我的意思是除了通報跟隱匿之外，第四十七條裡面關於第七條第五項規定也要調整，讓他們知道如果前端做好，後端的罰則是怎麼樣，前端做不好，後端的法則就是你剛剛講的，可以處到一億多，甚至最高可以到兩億以下的罰款。對。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:57:22.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:39.604000+08:00","text":"讓他們知道有這個情節上面的變化，不然你看，從南僑開始，第一時間本來就可以去通報了，上游、中游、下游，只要任何一個時間發現有異，就不要再想，想都不要想就通報主管機關的話，就可以提早解決。","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員冠廷","start":"2026-07-08T15:57:41.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:45.809000+08:00","text":"多複檢一次，然後複檢的機關又沒有辦法給你們，所以這個部分你們未來好好來檢討。是。謝謝。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:57:45.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:46.009000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員指教。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T15:57:46.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:46.670000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T15:57:47.170000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T15:57:50.312857+08:00","text":"接下來請陳清龍委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1959,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（15時45分）請部長。"],["主席：請石崇良部長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，我現在看這整個時間軸，大概是4月4日中聯生產這個批次的大豆沙拉油，然後在8日到10日陸續出貨給幾個重大的中游廠商，包含福壽跟泰山等廠商，大概一千三百多噸，4月22日他們送驗的報告是符合標準的，到5月中旬到6月，包含到6月10日，南僑開始發現問題，然後他們報給的是再上游一點的廠商，那中游的廠商再報給更上游的中聯，這樣子一個報一個。我們現在重新來理這件事情，第一時間有疑慮發生問題，下游的給中游，中游的給上游？還是下游的給主管機關，中游的給主管機關，上游的給主管機關？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員報告，按照食安法的規定，只要發現，不論是上、中、下游，都是通報主管機關。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，所以根據食品安全衛生管理法第七條第五項，如果發現產品有危害安全衛生之虞，第一時間應即刻主動停止製造、加工、販賣及辦理回收，並通報直轄市、縣（市）主管機關，大概是這樣子的流程，沒有錯吧？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：我有一個問題想要請教，明明法規這麼清楚，第七條第五項，在第四十七條有違反的罰則，包含違反第七條第五項的罰則，還沒有到後面說的超標部分要罰多少錢，先不到那邊，只要發現違反第七條第五項，再依照第四十七條的罰則，就是處臺幣三萬元以上、三百萬元以下的罰款，如果情節重大，還可以命令廠商停業。為什麼上游、中游、下游這些廠商明明知道有這麼重大的瑕疵，他們在第一時間還是想要在業內往上報，甚至還會覺得如果不要讓主管機關知道，他們自己再驗一次搞不好就沒事，這個心態是什麼原因？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，目前檢調也介入來調查瞭解，不過從他們的資金結構，大概也可以去推測，因為在6月15日，包含中聯、福壽、福懋有開一個品保的會議，就是他們內部的會議，這是因為他們的資金結構是在一起的，所以可以合理地推論他們其實就是同一個組成，所以在報的時候都是在內部裡面去報，沒有直接通報給衛生主管機關，所以我們才會予以重罰。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。我現在的問題就是說，這個事情是這樣子，如果越早通報，第一時間他們就通報主管機關，主管機關就可以越早去處理，處理的方法包含叫他們儘快回收、停止製造，釐清整個狀況，可是他們選擇的還是要在內部管理解決。在這個部分，我要知道的是，衛福部想要怎麼樣去防範這樣子的事情？就是明明就有罰則，但是為什麼他們還是寧願能拖一天就算一天，以為搞不好會大事化小、小事化無？這個狀況是這樣子，在業內或者是在廠商彼此之間，希望搞不好有迴轉的餘地，這其實就是在食安上面的一個重要破口。包含交通安全也是一樣，最近高鐵站也是有帶頭的工班督導不經同意就先斷電，然後跟其他高鐵員工說不要講出去，這件事情就當作沒事，後來也是被查處，被查處之後，當然是記重大的大過。交通安全是這樣，食品安全也是一樣，怎麼樣能夠讓通報的體制是友善的？譬如說，第一時間發現問題的時候，先不管究責，要先趕快維持商譽，至少在第一時間要負責任，必須要以最快的時間通報。除了加高罰則之外，你們有什麼樣的辦法嗎？"],["石部長崇良：我們現在也從這個事件裡面發覺到，其實我們原本的規定，三級品管裡面的第二級就是第三方檢驗，在這個過程當中，其實業者也有送第三方檢驗，可是這個檢驗報告直接回到業者，所以我們現在也在研議，其實第三方檢驗如果直接是跟主管機關通報，因為檢驗機構是沒有責任的，跟商品無關，可以直接通報給主管機關，主管機關就可以即時掌握。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們回到這一個部分繼續講，這是一個重點，剛剛提到說他們拿去複檢，複檢是在他們自己公司裡面的實驗室複檢，還是到第三方？"],["石部長崇良：到第三方。"],["陳委員冠廷：南僑是這樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：南僑第一次是自己檢驗，然後第二次就送外部了。"],["陳委員冠廷：中聯呢？"],["石部長崇良：中聯也是。應該是這樣，5月13日驗出的，南僑是在自己的實驗室，發現數值偏高、超標，就在6月再次送到外部檢驗，所以有兩次檢驗，一次是在內部自己的實驗室，一次是送第三方。之後它就通知福壽，福壽就通知了中聯，這時候中聯也是一樣，送了一次在愛之味，另外又送了外部的第三方SGS，所以都有外部檢驗。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以外部檢驗包含SGS，這個是標準的檢驗？"],["石部長崇良：第三方檢驗。"],["陳委員冠廷：那時候就已經知道有問題了？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是第三方檢驗機構沒有辦法直接提供報告給衛福部，因為委託方是……"],["石部長崇良：是業者，它是把報告送給業者，所以未來我們要去強化的就是這一塊的連結。"],["陳委員冠廷：剛才我們提到SGS，它是什麼樣的性質？它是什麼樣的組織？"],["石部長崇良：這個是我們認可的認證實驗室。"],["陳委員冠廷：認證實驗室？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個組織是民營的機構，只要經過認證的，就是這個組織？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：可以是其他的企業，可以是其他的……"],["石部長崇良：它接受很多方的檢驗委託，是專門做檢驗的。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。","剛才提到的這幾個，從愛之味到第三方的檢驗等等，所以你們未來就是很明確的，只要收到異常數值，第三方檢驗第一時間就要給衛福部？"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個就是標準做法，因為他們沒有利害相關嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對，沒有利害的關係。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。","那內部呢？內部其實第一時間已經掌握到有數值偏高，在那一剎那就必須要給主管機關了，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：理論上那個時候就要給主管機關。"],["石部長崇良：對，就是需要通報主管機關。"],["陳委員冠廷：我今天講那麼多的原因，是因為我必須要確保，未來每一間公司，它可能是大廠，他們心中一定會有焦慮，想說這樣的話會有什麼樣的後果，但是我們必須要讓這些食品公司很清楚地知道，如果第一時間檢驗有問題就通報的話，比不通報好，罰則比較不會這麼嚴厲，但萬一第一時間不通報，還想要掩蓋的話，就必須用法規裡面最重的罰則來懲罰，這是第一點。","第二個就是在法規的部分，現在第七條第五項有規定，應即主動停止製造，在第四十七條裡面有講到要處以多少的罰款。我們認為接下來的修法不只針對結果犯，所謂結果犯就是添加物如果超過原本的標準要給予重罰，這是一個部分，但是這個部分更重要的是，當我們發現到問題的時候要如何處理，因為是在原料端、製程端或是保存方式，我們現在還不能釐清，因為現在才剛開始調查而已，但我們要讓他們知道行為比結果更糟糕，知情不報比因為某些因素導致品管出現重大瑕疵更糟糕。所以我們希望行政院和衛福部針對第七條第五項規定，在發現產品有危害之虞的時候，沒有主動停止製造、販賣跟回收，沒有第一時間通報直轄市、縣（市）政府的主管機關，如果還是只處新臺幣三萬元以上三百萬以下的罰款而已，我認為這個部分是要增高的，這個部分增高，讓他們知道如果第一時間做這件事情的話，在接下來的司法調查，至少可以酌情處理，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果第一時間選擇掩蓋，像我們這樣子又花了一、兩個月，還要再一個批次、一個批次去查，付出的行政成本太大了。行政成本太大是因為第一時間沒有講，如果第一時間講的話，就不會到中游、下游，連一般上班族會食用的早餐全部都中了。如果第一時間就講的話，這些事情全部都不會發生，這些事情不會發生的話，事情就還是可以解決，就可以在最開始的時候來把破口堵起來。所以這個部分，部長，我覺得你第一時間在修法上面，衛福部必須要跟你們法律相關的組來討論一下怎麼樣去做這樣子的修正，最前端就要阻止，最前端就要通報，最前端就要把破口堵起來。"],["石部長崇良：對委員的指教，我們完全同意，所以我們才會對中聯加重處分到1億6,000萬，就是因為這樣，隱匿不報。"],["陳委員冠廷：你是因為結果嘛。"],["石部長崇良：沒有，不只是結果，我們有好多個因素一起考量，有加權處分，其中一個就是除了延遲還有隱匿這件事情去加重，才會有這麼高額的罰鍰。如果是按照違反第十五條，該條的罰則在第四十四條，是從六萬到二億，這是一個range，沒有通報的罰則是三萬到三百萬，所以我們是一併考慮之後才會罰一億六千多萬，是這樣來的。"],["陳委員冠廷：你是因為第四十四條把它罰了？"],["石部長崇良：對，然後我考量到它的通報跟隱匿。"],["陳委員冠廷：我的意思是除了通報跟隱匿之外，第四十七條裡面關於第七條第五項規定也要調整，讓他們知道如果前端做好，後端的罰則是怎麼樣，前端做不好，後端的法則就是你剛剛講的，可以處到一億多，甚至最高可以到兩億以下的罰款。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：讓他們知道有這個情節上面的變化，不然你看，從南僑開始，第一時間本來就可以去通報了，上游、中游、下游，只要任何一個時間發現有異，就不要再想，想都不要想就通報主管機關的話，就可以提早解決。多複檢一次，然後複檢的機關又沒有辦法給你們，所以這個部分你們未來好好來檢討。"],["石部長崇良：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳冠廷委員的質詢。","接下來請陳清龍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}