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16:15:27","會議時間":"2026-07-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n\n討論事項\n審查\n一、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員黃健豪等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十、台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五條條文修正草案」案。\n十一、委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員陳超明等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員黃健豪等23人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案。\n十六、委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員王育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」案。\n\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答，討論事項僅詢答】\n【討論事項第十七案，如經復議則不予審查】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":4.31721875,"end":7.06784375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":8.94096875,"end":15.20159375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":15.910343750000003,"end":18.17159375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.99471875,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":18.49221875,"end":18.94784375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":19.94346875,"end":22.05284375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":22.30596875,"end":22.94721875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":23.453468750000003,"end":27.68909375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":28.16159375,"end":49.930343750000006,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":50.21721875,"end":51.16221875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":51.22971875,"end":53.423468750000005,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":53.507843750000006,"end":58.97534375,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":56.32596875,"end":57.642218750000005,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":58.97534375,"end":59.68409375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":59.68409375,"end":60.02159375,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":60.02159375,"end":64.98284375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":65.65784375,"end":77.97659375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":78.43221875,"end":79.42784375000001,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":79.74846875,"end":80.33909375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":80.59221875,"end":82.19534375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":82.49909375,"end":97.58534375,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":87.74721875,"end":87.79784375,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":87.81471875000001,"end":87.93284375,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.43909375000001,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":98.10846875,"end":117.41346875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"石部長崇良","start":116.63721875,"end":133.20846875,"speaker_score":0.758},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":118.03784375000001,"end":118.49346875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.08721875,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":126.12096875,"end":126.67784375000001,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":127.30221875000001,"end":127.53846875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":131.75721875000002,"end":143.14784375000002,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":143.65409375000002,"end":145.59471875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":145.94909375,"end":146.77596875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":147.31596875,"end":148.73346875000001,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":149.57721875000001,"end":151.06221875,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":151.39971875,"end":151.99034375000002,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"陳委員清龍","start":152.26034375,"end":153.77909375000002,"speaker_score":0.845},{"speaker":"SPE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謝謝主席 還是請我們部長 署長我想今天的重點 今天的重點絕對在獨有的事件 這個很明顯"},{"start":28.274,"end":53.024,"text":"那在這個過程當中我們從過去我們五五部食藥署這邊來判斷經過專家會議來怎麼來判斷認為說應該是在源頭啦應該在源頭可能就是這一批的進口巴西黃豆的這樣的一個問題是不是這樣我掌握到的訊息是這樣吧"},{"start":54.184,"end":61.867,"text":"這個是有些專家的猜測啦不過我們還是要我們還在做不詳的檢驗還在檢驗還在釐清嘛所以一般專家的一個檢測好那剛剛部長也講還在一般專家的一個採測然後我們部裡也還在了解當中嘛那是從這幾天的事件的一個過程我們啊 明顯的發覺"},{"start":82.795,"end":96.127,"text":"責任好像全部要推給各地方政府就整個這樣的一個用途中央跟地方一起協力啦對啊 我也認為本來就是中央跟地方一起要協力啊但是整個媒體說"},{"start":98.449,"end":126.25,"text":"釋放出來的讓民眾所看到的好像從要甩鍋給地方所以我就這邊在講嘛黃州的進口相關的邊境的管理應該都是我們中央應該就如部長所談的嘛中央地方是一體的尤其對食安嘛每一個階段都有不同的責任譬如說在邊境檢驗的部分那當然是由這個食藥署我們中央在負責"},{"start":127.031,"end":148.527,"text":"但是在廠的管理要求這邊 這個就是地方上可能在地方嘛 地方的一個工廠管理等等所以其實是大家一起來維護我們的食安但是我在這邊我一定要有這個機會我想食安沒有分顏色 大家要一起來努力"},{"start":149.828,"end":173.278,"text":"現在事情發生了那過去前幾天我想會不會包括署長這邊我們台灣民眾黨也以嚴厲的欠責啦齁那這個是我們必要的態度因為食安問題牽涉到我們全體國人同胞的一個健康安全那從過去幾天的發展我們看到你每天"},{"start":174.798,"end":194.702,"text":"每個政策 每個方向 每天在一直做改變 一直做改變讓我們也無所適從 你整個表現 整個方向 走板這是事情吧 這是事實 部長你承認嗎一個決策可以搞成每天 不一樣啊跟委員說明 這個也是按照事實的發現 我們在滾動的調整所以一開始呢 當然是有依據啦"},{"start":201.443,"end":214.037,"text":"一開始也都是依據之前所定下的原則我們在106年就已經經過專家已經定下了一個下架的原則所以這個時間就是先遵照這個原則因為這個原則"},{"start":218.201,"end":229.309,"text":"過去沒有發生過這樣的事件所以沒有碰到所以才重新再邀請專家今天碰到就這個事件跟過去的原則來做修正你覺得這個原則就怪怪的嘛為什麼會定這樣的一個原則但是作為一個部長我想這個就是你在做決策的一個魄力啦"},{"start":241.858,"end":268.447,"text":"今天你既然覺得怪怪的106年專家的一個會議這樣的決定時間碰到了如果那一天你有跟院長報告嘛對不對如果我在這邊我想追問一句啊院長是要你遭106年的那個審議專家審議的下架原則做還是要你決策怎麼做"},{"start":269.367,"end":291.912,"text":"當然我們是食藥署都是依法行政所以對於這個下架的原則都是對外公告的所以這個原則沒有改變的時候還是依法行政那個原則跟食安法沒有互相違背嘛有沒有違背食安法那個當時候也是食安法修完之後所訂下來的"},{"start":293.908,"end":315.155,"text":"那我在這邊 我想不跟部長在爭106年的最原則反正事情也發生了 你也做確切了產生這樣的一個混亂嘛 產生了民怨嘛你才會再調整嘛所以這個後果你也在承擔了啦這個後果你也在承擔了那我想我在這邊還是要強調剛剛部長也講食安問題是地方中央是一體的那我們地方已經在做"},{"start":323.678,"end":344.175,"text":"那衛武部還沒有在做我想這個過程我們每一位國人都可以在這幾天的一個媒體啊這個網路都看得清清楚楚我們地方在做什麼中央在做什麼那在這個過程當中我真的要幫我們地方政府講講話"},{"start":345.896,"end":370.977,"text":"真的我也要這邊謝謝我們地方政府衛生局啦還是衛生處這些同仁這一個禮拜以來為了下架為了檢查他們的辛苦真的衛生部的同仁我也一樣要表達真的辛苦了一個獨有事件讓衛生部讓地方政府跟衛生啊這個單位啊人仰馬翻啊"},{"start":372.859,"end":387.946,"text":"但是為什麼會這樣人也麻煩 我還是要跟部長再次的談你的決策 你的決定 真的就造成這樣的一個混亂尤其啊 我們署長來 下一頁署長 我在這邊一定要好好請教你"},{"start":393.052,"end":418.105,"text":"台中市政府啊 要去中原油脂查查這件事情你知道嗎 署長報告委員 我們6月30號通報我們7月1號其實協同我們的台中的應該是衛生局 然後食安處我們7月中年的場區讓他們總共去兩次嘛 對不對就我知道第二次"},{"start":419.386,"end":424.811,"text":"第二次你們衛武部就沒有派員啊我從媒體在這裡看得清清楚楚衛武部十二署長江志剛表示"},{"start":437.803,"end":461.642,"text":"7月1日,列陵中聯由此停工後,初步看到改善報告其中護工計畫並不合格,很多節點有待改善並執行計畫是不合格根本連去看都不用看,實在不知道台中衛生局去看什麼"},{"start":462.603,"end":468.226,"text":"這段話是不是你講的這段話你講的我問你這句話這段話是不是你講的是不是你講的 我在問署長應該是這樣子如果署長不進來 我就問署長你在看這篇的講話"},{"start":487.616,"end":491.258,"text":"這個是署長 你看這有斷章取義啦斷章取義 人家這個什麼斷章取義什麼斷章取義為什麼"},{"start":503.344,"end":522.182,"text":"報告人7月4號7月4號下午開的專家會議的時候我們有看到報告我已經提建議給廠的要他們直接修正了因為我看到他的報告是不行的這不行的我已經跟廠說不行了那台中市政府衛生局去看不可以去看嗎"},{"start":527.446,"end":538.072,"text":"他要去看什麼我問你啊你問他說他要去看什麼他要跟你報告他要看什麼嗎他幫你看剛剛部長有講說中央地方是一體的今天這個場他熱定停工再來他我想他也要申請復工啦不然整個整個產業鏈有問題嘛對不對來我問你復工誰要負責任"},{"start":556.723,"end":581.935,"text":"難免人物供洗胎不然還是地方政府當然這個是地方政府的權責但是因為他的這個改善的計畫我們的專家審完之後是不合格的所以不能馬上就去檢視他會需要再改因為他還沒有看到我們給他的建議修正你就去看沒有"},{"start":582.335,"end":593.646,"text":"要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善啦,沒有改善要改善"},{"start":598.21,"end":614.34,"text":"他所提的改善計畫等等經過你們的專家會議審查認為還不OK嗎還不OK嗎這個部分你們就提供給台中市政府嘛幹嘛你的署長這麼厲害啊他們要去看什麼有什麼好看"},{"start":616.619,"end":642.677,"text":"給人全部管刑那也是他的權責啊有些誤會啦我們是誤會你就公開澄清啊對三天內7月1號他才提我們才知道誤會你就公開澄清啊你都不澄清我今天問你說誤會那你之前為什麼不澄清這麼多天了你哪怕澄清那你現在跟我講誤會六個月到五個月"},{"start":647.15,"end":654.764,"text":"對不對署長這件事情你的責任最大所以我們台灣民眾黨要求就是你要下台"},{"start":658.615,"end":677.96,"text":"你竟然還在講無謂牽涉到全體國人的一個食品健康安全才就是政府本來就有他的權責你還指責比方到他的場區去查查還指責要去看什麼有什麼好看對嗎好 下一頁"},{"start":684.468,"end":712.45,"text":"最重要的我們剛剛講源頭管理那現在事件發生了那產品也下架了啦我們衛福部 偉大的衛福部一天一改變改變到現在通通要下架了啦那你百分之二十的比例也不用了反正通通下架了這個你違反賴清德總統的命令喔賴清德總統親口講的清清楚楚"},{"start":713.311,"end":734.731,"text":"百分之二十以下的那個自主喔所以我還沒有聽到賴總統親自說百分之二十以下的也通通要下架喔所以蔣維武不做的決策是凌駕我們賴清德總統這一個指示我先跟你講那好全部下架了"},{"start":735.552,"end":742.537,"text":"那我想你們後續 下架之後這些不管第二層的 第三層的這些產品 何去何從 怎麼處理下架啊 衝衝弄回收啊 再來咧"},{"start":751.069,"end":755.793,"text":"我們對於我們所公佈的這個40%以下的預防性下降但是檢驗如果合格的話還是可以我跟你講這些產品齁我還是跟部長講有些是有效體現的可能三天五天這一百一口氣有些可能有效體現可能一年兩年啊"},{"start":775.65,"end":795.14,"text":"這些下架的你們是怎麼去追蹤大家都回收啊下架回收退貨到原廠商啊一層一層嘛你東西從第一層到第二層到第三層現在下架回收從第三層回到第二層回到哪一層我也不知道這東西銷毀"},{"start":798.007,"end":815.419,"text":"還是去哪裡啊你們有沒有最終機制有沒有要跟地方政府建立最終機制如果是郵品的部分郵品的部分當然都回收啦下架回收這個郵品 產品的部分因為它有涉及到那麼"},{"start":816.56,"end":836.186,"text":"專家會議討論起來原則上是這個光銷回來回收但是後來因為在執行上有一些地方衛生局上他的判斷上的困難所以才後來就是通通都預防性選擇預防下架的他們就是這些下架的產品最終去處要去哪裡啊"},{"start":843.035,"end":861.339,"text":"不管了看他如果他提出檢驗合格的證明的話還是可以上架所以那一批有問題的通通通通可能吃下肚子了然後你現在再重新檢驗沒問題的繼續讓他下架我告訴你"},{"start":865.168,"end":888.375,"text":"再來容力企業,我來自地方太了解了再來容力企業,容力企業要做什麼你知道嗎?民間的大普渡啊,普渡你知道嗎?那一間廟室還在那邊,還沒燈就整個拔走整個搶走啊普渡最常用的是什麼?一定要必備的這東西是什麼你知道嗎?普渡你知不知道?普渡,普渡會放什麼你知道嗎?泡米"},{"start":895.455,"end":908.406,"text":"它的油一定會有一箱泡麵一定會有一罐沙拉油還是調和油這並不準的啊今天如果漏掉了,我們的歐國味都流出來了那這些下架的產品會不會變成補助最好的"},{"start":922.54,"end":943.929,"text":"供應的商品,因為這些下架了啦,東西過程很瘦的如果你沒有消費,你讓業者自己去處理,通常會流到還是會用這樣的一個管道回到我們的這個一般的一個市面上啊"},{"start":945.171,"end":948.559,"text":"所以現在說下下下下整天沒問題又讓他上架整天有問題又讓他處理啊啊我跟你說有破人這樣啊"},{"start":956.545,"end":986.025,"text":"當然的風修都會出現就是泡麵啊沙拉油啊調味油啊我們現在講的是這個油品的部分一定都回收下架封存了啦所以這個不會再流入到市場上我今天跟你說商品的部分像有些沙拉這個沙拉醬那個有預期的有時效的就沙拉醬那個就要先預防性下降我今天跟你說泡麵有效期間我估計你知道嗎"},{"start":987.166,"end":996.161,"text":"沙拉油 沙拉油的有效性成果 你知道嗎泡麵比較固啦泡麵比較固啦 油比較固 我問你泡麵比較固啦 油比較固"},{"start":998.405,"end":1003.55,"text":"所以絕對還在JP之內啊那JP之內我問你要不要銷毀是不是怎麼最終最終的處置你都說不 整個地方政府要合作 對不對"},{"start":1022.809,"end":1048.222,"text":"你還想嗎?從你消費啊,還是說怎麼處理啊?我已經給你提倡啊,因為我對一般地方我了解啊,你這裡沒有處理這裡的油跟泡麵弄髒燒衣,煎麵、泡豆啦,那個很多的一個管道,了解嗎?我在這裡想提出這個意見啊,齁,供你們外部跟地方政府來做參考,謝謝,齁,謝謝。"},{"start":1051.527,"end":1051.587,"text":"謝謝陳清龍委員的資訊"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:01.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:01.453000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:05.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:07.439000+08:00","text":"請部長和署長。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:07.439000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:08.439000+08:00","text":"請石部長、姜署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:08.439000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:09.439000+08:00","text":"陳委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:08.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:47.423000+08:00","text":"今天的重點絕對在毒油的事件，這個很明顯，在這個過程當中，過去衛福部、食藥署經過專家會議來判斷，認為問題應該是在源頭，可能就是這一批進口的巴西黃豆，是不是這樣？","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:47.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:49.004000+08:00","text":"我掌握到的訊息是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:50.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:53.866000+08:00","text":"這個是有些專家的猜測，我們還在做各項的檢驗。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:53.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:54.126000+08:00","text":"還在檢驗，還在釐清？對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:54.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:58:55.386000+08:00","text":"這是一般專家的檢測。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:58:55.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:59:21.258000+08:00","text":"剛剛部長也講，還在一般專家的揣測，然後部裡也還在瞭解當中，但是從這幾天的事件過程，我們明顯發覺責任好像全部要推給各地方政府……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:59:22.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:59:25.441000+08:00","text":"這個是中央跟地方一起協力。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T15:59:26.122000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:59:54.304000+08:00","text":"對啊，我也認為本來就是中央跟地方要一起協力啊，但是整個媒體所釋放出來的訊息，讓民眾所看到的，好像統統要甩鍋給地方，所以我在講，黃豆的進口或相關的邊境管理，應該都是中央要管的，就如部長所談的，中央地方是一體的，尤其是食安。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:59:54.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T15:59:56.866000+08:00","text":"對，每一個階段都有不同的責任。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T15:59:57.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:02.250000+08:00","text":"譬如說，在邊境檢驗的部分，當然是由我們中央食藥署在負責……對啊！","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:03.031000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:07.655000+08:00","text":"但是在廠的管理要求部分，這個就是地方上要去……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:07.815000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:08.655000+08:00","text":"可能就地方嘛？對。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:09.476000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:15.380000+08:00","text":"地方的工廠管理等等，所以其實是一體，大家一起來維護我們的食安。對。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:15.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:24.507000+08:00","text":"但是我在這邊一定要藉由這個機會來表達，食安沒有分顏色，大家要一起來努力。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:25.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:45.116000+08:00","text":"現在事情發生了，過去幾天，衛福部包括署長、我們台灣民眾黨也予以嚴厲的譴責，這個是我們必要的態度，因為食安問題牽涉到我們全體國人的健康安全。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:46.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:00:59.500000+08:00","text":"從過去幾天的發展，我們看到你每個政策、每個方向、每天在一直做改變、一直做改變，讓我們也無所適從。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:00:59.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:06.941000+08:00","text":"你們整個表現真的荒腔走板，這是事實吧，部長，你承認嗎？","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:06.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:09.021000+08:00","text":"一個決策可以搞成每天不一樣嗎？沒有！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:09.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:10.062000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，這個也是按照事實的發現，我們再滾動地調整。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:10.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:22.008000+08:00","text":"所以一開始當然有依據啦，一開始也都是依據之前所訂下的原則……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:22.008000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:23.008000+08:00","text":"大家依法……依據什麼？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:22.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:29.857000+08:00","text":"我們在106年就已經經過專家訂下了一個下架的處理原則，所以這個時間就是先按照這個原則。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:29.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:34.201000+08:00","text":"下架的原則，這個原則你覺得OK嗎？","quality":0.267},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:34.201000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:42.407000+08:00","text":"因為過去沒有發生過這樣的事情，所以才重新再邀請專家來就這個事件跟過去的原則來做修正。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:42.407000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:43.407000+08:00","text":"所以沒有碰到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:42.467000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:43.148000+08:00","text":"今天碰到了這個事件，你覺得這個原則就怪怪的嘛！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:43.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:43.788000+08:00","text":"為什麼會訂這樣的一個原則？對。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:43.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:01:45.229000+08:00","text":"但是作為一個部長，我想這個就是你在做決策的魄力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:01:57.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:12.503000+08:00","text":"今天你既然覺得怪怪的，106年專家會議的決定，然後事件碰到了，如果……那一天你有跟院長報告，對不對？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:13.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:24.427000+08:00","text":"我在這邊想追問一句，院長是要你照106年專家審議的下架原則做，還是要你決策怎麼做？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:25.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:35.729000+08:00","text":"當然我們食藥署都是依法行政，對於下架的原則都是對外公告的，所以這個原則沒有改變的時候，還是應該依法行政。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:36.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:42.110000+08:00","text":"好，那個原則跟食安法沒有互相違背嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:42.731000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:43.771000+08:00","text":"有沒有違背食安法基本的精神？","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:46.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:02:47.892000+08:00","text":"沒有違背，當時也是食安法修完之後所訂下來的。好。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:02:50.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:03.233000+08:00","text":"我在這邊也不想再跟部長爭106年的原則了，反正事情也發生了，你也做決策了，產生這樣的混亂、產生了民怨，你才會再調整嘛！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:03:03.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:06.614000+08:00","text":"所以這個後果你也在承擔了啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:03:09.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:22.120000+08:00","text":"我想我在這邊還是要強調，剛剛部長也講了，食安問題地方、中央是一體的，我們地方已經在做了，但衛福部還沒有在做。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:03:22.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:36.912000+08:00","text":"我想這個過程，我們每一位國人都可以在這幾天的媒體、網路看得清清楚楚，我們地方在做什麼、中央在做什麼。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:03:37.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:54.767000+08:00","text":"在這個過程當中，我真的要幫地方政府講講話，我也要特別謝謝我們地方政府衛生局還是衛生處這些同仁，這一個禮拜以來為了下架和其他工作的辛苦。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:03:55.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:03:59.671000+08:00","text":"當然對衛福部的同仁我也一樣要表達，真的辛苦了！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:00.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:06.637000+08:00","text":"一個毒油事件，讓衛福部和地方政府各衛生單位人仰馬翻。","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:08.859000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:10.280000+08:00","text":"但是為什麼會這樣人仰馬翻？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:11.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:20.104000+08:00","text":"我還是要跟部長再一次地談，你的決策、你的決定真的就造成這樣的混亂。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:22.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:23.926000+08:00","text":"署長，我在這邊一定要好好請教你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:29.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:36.916000+08:00","text":"臺中市政府去中聯油脂查廠，這件事情你知道嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:37.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:44.060000+08:00","text":"報告委員，6月30日通報，我們7月1日協同臺中的……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:45.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:45.961000+08:00","text":"衛生局。","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:47.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:51.064000+08:00","text":"衛生局食安處，我們去了中聯的廠區。","quality":0.533},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:51.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:53.125000+08:00","text":"他們總共去兩次，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:53.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:57.448000+08:00","text":"就我知道，第2次你們衛福部就沒有派員啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:57.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:04:58.448000+08:00","text":"第2次我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:04:57.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:37.642000+08:00","text":"我就問你，我從媒體這裡看得清清楚楚，來，我唸給你聽：衛福部食藥署署長姜至剛表示，7月1日勒令中聯油脂停工後，初步看到改善報告，其中復工計畫並不合格，很多節點有待改善，並直言計畫都不合格，根本連去看都不用看，實在不知道臺中衛生局去看什麼。","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:38.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:39.223000+08:00","text":"這段話是不是你講的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:39.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:39.884000+08:00","text":"這段話是真的？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:39.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:40.884000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們是在7月4日的時候把整個事件做根本原因的分析……","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:39.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:41.104000+08:00","text":"我問你，這段話是不是你講的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:43.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:43.366000+08:00","text":"跟委員說明，應該是這樣子，之前……","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:43.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:05:43.966000+08:00","text":"部長，我是在問署長。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:05:44.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:04.197000+08:00","text":"媒體刊登的這段話是不是署長講的？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:05.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:06.117000+08:00","text":"他這個有斷章取義啦！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:06.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:06.938000+08:00","text":"什麼斷章取義？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:06.938000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:09.419200+08:00","text":"只要說是不是他講的就好了啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:09.419200+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:11.900400+08:00","text":"之前他們有去看過了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:11.900400+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:14.381600+08:00","text":"部長，你不要回答。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:14.381600+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:16.862800+08:00","text":"我問署長這段話是不是他講的？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:16.862800+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:19.344000+08:00","text":"為什麼地方政府去勘察，你有意見？","quality":0.214},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:19.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:36.520000+08:00","text":"報告委員，7月4日下午召開專家會議的時候，我們有看到報告，我已經提建議給廠，要他們直接修正了，因為我看到他的報告是不行的，我已經跟廠說不行了！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:36.660000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:38.182000+08:00","text":"好，你看到報告是不行的，那臺中市政府衛生局不可以去看嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:43.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:45.407000+08:00","text":"他要去看什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:45.407000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:46.407000+08:00","text":"這部分我們予以尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:45.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:45.748000+08:00","text":"那我問你啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:46.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:49.990000+08:00","text":"你問他說他要去看什麼，那他要跟你報告他要看什麼嗎？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:49.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:50.990000+08:00","text":"我們予以尊重。","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:50.990000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:51.990000+08:00","text":"我們看過，這個廠還要加油。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:49.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:53.572000+08:00","text":"他幫你看，剛剛部長有講，中央、地方是一體的，今天這個廠勒令停工，再來它也要申請復工，不然整個產業鏈有問題，對不對？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:06:53.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:06:54.052000+08:00","text":"來，我問你，復工誰要負責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:14.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:15.144000+08:00","text":"能不能復工是要看衛福部，還是地方政府？","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:15.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:18.786000+08:00","text":"當然這個是地方政府的權責……對啊！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:18.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:30.151000+08:00","text":"但是因為它的改善計畫在我們的專家審完之後是不合格的，所以不能馬上就去檢視它要讓它復工，還需要再……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:30.151000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:32.692000+08:00","text":"臺中市政府衛生局去又不是要同意它復工！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:32.692000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.435000+08:00","text":"不是，因為它還沒有看到我們給它的建議修正，你就去看……要改善啦！","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.435000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:39.435000+08:00","text":"你還是要表達沒有用，對不對？","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.595000+08:00","text":"要改善啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.715000+08:00","text":"還沒改善就去看。","quality":0.429},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:38.715000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:07:54.450000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，部長、署長，你剛剛談的已經很清楚啦，這一家廠商能不能復工，應該也是地方的權責，對不對？對。","quality":0.024},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:07:54.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:00.874000+08:00","text":"它所提的改善計畫等等，經過你們的專家會議審查認為還不OK嘛？對。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:03.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:05.817000+08:00","text":"這個部分你們就提供給臺中市政府嘛！對。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:06.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:08.359000+08:00","text":"你的署長怎麼這麼厲害啊？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:08.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:10.140000+08:00","text":"「他們要去看什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:10.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:10.320000+08:00","text":"有什麼好看？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:14.821000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:16.422000+08:00","text":"」地方政府關心，那也是他的權責啊！","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:16.422000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:17.422000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我知道！","quality":0},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:16.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:18.023000+08:00","text":"有些誤會啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:19.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:20.725000+08:00","text":"誤會你就公開澄清啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"姜署長至剛","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:21.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:24.687000+08:00","text":"我們是3天內……7月1日他才提，我們才知道……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:25.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:26.248000+08:00","text":"誤會你就公開澄清啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:26.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:32.973000+08:00","text":"你都不澄清，我今天問你，你說誤會，那你之前為什麼不澄清？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:34.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:36.675000+08:00","text":"這麼多天了，你為什麼不澄清？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:37.436000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:38.156000+08:00","text":"那你現在跟我講誤會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:44.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:50.704000+08:00","text":"署長，這件事情你的責任最大，所以我們台灣民眾黨的要求就是你要下台！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:54.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:08:55.595000+08:00","text":"你今天還在講誤會？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:08:57.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:13.760000+08:00","text":"牽涉到全體國人的食品健康安全，臺中市政府本來就有他的權責，你還指責地方到廠區去查察，還指責要去看什麼、有什麼好看，對吧？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:20.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:35.480000+08:00","text":"最重要的是我們剛剛講的源頭管理，現在事件發生了，產品也下架了，我們偉大的衛福部一天一改變，改變到現在，通通要下架了！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:36.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:40.544000+08:00","text":"你20%的比例也不用了，反正通通下架了。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:41.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:44.607000+08:00","text":"這個你違反賴清德總統的命令哦！","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:45.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:52.474000+08:00","text":"賴清德總統親口講得清清楚楚，20%以下的自主管理！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:52.474000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:09:53.895000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:09:53.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:06.968000+08:00","text":"我還沒有聽到賴總統親自說20%以下的也通通要下架，所以現在衛福部這個決策是凌駕賴清德總統的指示。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:09.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:17.817000+08:00","text":"好，全部下架了，下架之後，這些不管第2層的、第3層的產品何去何從，怎麼處理？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:18.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:18.537000+08:00","text":"下架了，廠商都回收了，再來呢？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:18.537000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:27.089000+08:00","text":"後續怎麼追蹤？","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:27.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:28.630000+08:00","text":"對於我們所公布的20%以下的預防性下架，但是檢驗如果合格的話，還是可以。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:28.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:31.753000+08:00","text":"我還是跟部長講，這些產品有些是有有效期限的，可能是3天、5天、1個禮拜、1個月，有些的有效期限可能是1年、2年。","quality":0.548},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:51.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:10:55.152000+08:00","text":"這些下架的你們是怎麼去追蹤？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:10:55.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:00.475000+08:00","text":"大家都下架回收，退貨到原廠商，一層一層嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:00.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:10.359000+08:00","text":"你東西從第1層到第2層，再到第3層，現在下架回收，從第3層回到第2層，再回到哪一層我也不知道。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:11.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:14.447000+08:00","text":"這些東西是銷毀，還是去哪裡？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:15.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:16.409000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有追蹤機制？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:16.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:20.312000+08:00","text":"有沒有要跟地方政府建立起追蹤機制？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:21.032000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:26.816000+08:00","text":"如果是油品的部分當然都下架回收，這個沒有問題……","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:26.816000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:28.878000+08:00","text":"對，產品的部分。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:28.878000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:34.921000+08:00","text":"產品的部分因為有涉及到，專家會議討論起來，原則上是20%以下的……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:34.921000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:39.102000+08:00","text":"什麼都是專家會議，光是銷毀、回收也要專家會議喔！","quality":0.19},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:39.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:48.945000+08:00","text":"但是後來因為在執行上有一些地方衛生局判斷上的困難，所以後來才通通都預防性下架。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:48.965000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:49.225000+08:00","text":"預防性下架這些如果是合格的產品再……","quality":0.312},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:49.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:52.166000+08:00","text":"對，下架了，我現在問的是這些下架產品最終的去處是要去哪裡？","quality":0.577},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:11:59.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:11:59.355000+08:00","text":"衛福部不管了？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:00.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:05.216000+08:00","text":"如果它能夠提出檢驗合格的證明，還是可以上架。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:05.216000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:06.497000+08:00","text":"還可以再上架？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:06.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:16.919000+08:00","text":"所以那一批有問題的可能通通吃下肚子了，然後你現在再重新檢驗，沒問題的繼續讓它上架？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:17.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:24.289000+08:00","text":"我告訴部長，我來自地方，太了解了！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:24.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:28.810000+08:00","text":"再來農曆七月要做什麼，你知道嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:28.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:30.551000+08:00","text":"民間的大普渡！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:31.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:33.032000+08:00","text":"你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:33.032000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:37.973000+08:00","text":"一間寺廟動不動就好幾百桌、好幾千桌。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:37.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:40.494000+08:00","text":"部長，普渡最常用的是什麼？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:40.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:42.855000+08:00","text":"一定要必備的東西是什麼，你知道嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:43.935000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:12:44.255000+08:00","text":"普渡會放什麼，你知道嗎？泡麵！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:12:52.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:00.343000+08:00","text":"一定會有一箱泡麵，一定會有一罐沙拉油還是調合油，這些都是標準配備。","quality":0.767},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:00.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:19.981000+08:00","text":"現在剛好6月了，下個月就是農曆7月，這些下架的產品會不會變成普渡最好的供應商品？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:20.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:39.689000+08:00","text":"因為這些下架的東西一定會很便宜，如果你沒有銷毀，讓業者自己去處理，還是會用這樣的管道回到我們一般的市面上。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:41.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:43.917000+08:00","text":"所以現在說下架、檢驗沒問題又讓它上架，那檢驗有問題的要怎麼處理？","quality":0.621},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:44.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:44.539000+08:00","text":"我就跟你說有可能這樣啊！","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:52.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:13:58.289000+08:00","text":"臺灣的風俗，農曆7月就是泡麵、沙拉油、調合油啊！","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:13:59.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:07.235000+08:00","text":"我們現在說的是油品的部分都已經回收、下架、封存了，所以不會再流入到市面上……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:07.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:09.597000+08:00","text":"我現在在跟你說產品啊！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:09.597000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:13.219000+08:00","text":"下面的商品部分，像有些沙拉醬……","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:13.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:16.401000+08:00","text":"那個有逾期的、有時效的就銷毀嘛！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:16.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:19.243000+08:00","text":"沙拉醬就要先預防性下架。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:19.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:22.025000+08:00","text":"我現在問你，泡麵的有效期限多久你知道嗎？","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:23.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:27.493000+08:00","text":"沙拉油的有效期限多久你知道嗎？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:27.493000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:28.034000+08:00","text":"泡麵比較久。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:30.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:32.141000+08:00","text":"那我問你，泡麵比較久，還是油比較久？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:32.141000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:33.273000+08:00","text":"你連這個都搞不清楚！","quality":0},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:33.273000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:34.405000+08:00","text":"油的話是1年，泡麵也有半年。對啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:34.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:35.166000+08:00","text":"所以絕對還在這一批之內啊！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:35.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:36.107000+08:00","text":"那我問你要不要銷毀？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:36.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:36.868000+08:00","text":"是不是要怎麼追蹤做最終的處置？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:36.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:37.568000+08:00","text":"你們都沒有！","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:38.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:14:39.550000+08:00","text":"這個部分可能要跟地方政府合作，對不對？對。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:14:58.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:00.430000+08:00","text":"你們有這樣想過嗎？","quality":0.375},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:01.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:02.671000+08:00","text":"統一銷毀，還是怎麼處理？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:03.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:07.934000+08:00","text":"我已經提醒你了，因為我從地方來，所以我了解。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:09.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:19.159000+08:00","text":"如果你沒有處理，這些油跟泡麵通通跑到普渡，有很多管道，了解嗎？","quality":0.63},{"speaker":"陳委員清龍","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:19.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:24.222000+08:00","text":"我在這裡先提出這個意見，提供你們衛福部跟地方政府做參考，謝謝。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"石部長崇良","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:24.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:24.222000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:27.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:27.567000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝陳清龍委員的質詢。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-08T16:15:28.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-08T16:15:31.209857+08:00","text":"接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2017,"blocks":[["陳委員清龍：（15時57分）謝謝主席。請部長和署長。"],["主席：請石部長、姜署長。"],["石部長崇良：陳委員好。"],["陳委員清龍：今天的重點絕對在毒油的事件，這個很明顯，在這個過程當中，過去衛福部、食藥署經過專家會議來判斷，認為問題應該是在源頭，可能就是這一批進口的巴西黃豆，是不是這樣？我掌握到的訊息是這樣。"],["石部長崇良：這個是有些專家的猜測，我們還在做各項的檢驗。"],["陳委員清龍：還在檢驗，還在釐清？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：這是一般專家的檢測。剛剛部長也講，還在一般專家的揣測，然後部裡也還在瞭解當中，但是從這幾天的事件過程，我們明顯發覺責任好像全部要推給各地方政府……"],["石部長崇良：這個是中央跟地方一起協力。"],["陳委員清龍：對啊，我也認為本來就是中央跟地方要一起協力啊，但是整個媒體所釋放出來的訊息，讓民眾所看到的，好像統統要甩鍋給地方，所以我在講，黃豆的進口或相關的邊境管理，應該都是中央要管的，就如部長所談的，中央地方是一體的，尤其是食安。"],["石部長崇良：對，每一個階段都有不同的責任。譬如說，在邊境檢驗的部分，當然是由我們中央食藥署在負責……"],["陳委員清龍：對啊！"],["石部長崇良：但是在廠的管理要求部分，這個就是地方上要去……"],["陳委員清龍：可能就地方嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：地方的工廠管理等等，所以其實是一體，大家一起來維護我們的食安。"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：但是我在這邊一定要藉由這個機會來表達，食安沒有分顏色，大家要一起來努力。現在事情發生了，過去幾天，衛福部包括署長、我們台灣民眾黨也予以嚴厲的譴責，這個是我們必要的態度，因為食安問題牽涉到我們全體國人的健康安全。從過去幾天的發展，我們看到你每個政策、每個方向、每天在一直做改變、一直做改變，讓我們也無所適從。你們整個表現真的荒腔走板，這是事實吧，部長，你承認嗎？一個決策可以搞成每天不一樣嗎？"],["石部長崇良：沒有！跟委員說明，這個也是按照事實的發現，我們再滾動地調整。所以一開始當然有依據啦，一開始也都是依據之前所訂下的原則……"],["陳委員清龍：大家依法……依據什麼？"],["石部長崇良：我們在106年就已經經過專家訂下了一個下架的處理原則，所以這個時間就是先按照這個原則。"],["陳委員清龍：下架的原則，這個原則你覺得OK嗎？"],["石部長崇良：因為過去沒有發生過這樣的事情，所以才重新再邀請專家來就這個事件跟過去的原則來做修正。"],["陳委員清龍：所以沒有碰到？今天碰到了這個事件，你覺得這個原則就怪怪的嘛！為什麼會訂這樣的一個原則？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：但是作為一個部長，我想這個就是你在做決策的魄力。今天你既然覺得怪怪的，106年專家會議的決定，然後事件碰到了，如果……那一天你有跟院長報告，對不對？我在這邊想追問一句，院長是要你照106年專家審議的下架原則做，還是要你決策怎麼做？"],["石部長崇良：當然我們食藥署都是依法行政，對於下架的原則都是對外公告的，所以這個原則沒有改變的時候，還是應該依法行政。"],["陳委員清龍：好，那個原則跟食安法沒有互相違背嗎？有沒有違背食安法基本的精神？"],["石部長崇良：沒有違背，當時也是食安法修完之後所訂下來的。"],["陳委員清龍：好。我在這邊也不想再跟部長爭106年的原則了，反正事情也發生了，你也做決策了，產生這樣的混亂、產生了民怨，你才會再調整嘛！所以這個後果你也在承擔了啦！我想我在這邊還是要強調，剛剛部長也講了，食安問題地方、中央是一體的，我們地方已經在做了，但衛福部還沒有在做。我想這個過程，我們每一位國人都可以在這幾天的媒體、網路看得清清楚楚，我們地方在做什麼、中央在做什麼。","在這個過程當中，我真的要幫地方政府講講話，我也要特別謝謝我們地方政府衛生局還是衛生處這些同仁，這一個禮拜以來為了下架和其他工作的辛苦。當然對衛福部的同仁我也一樣要表達，真的辛苦了！一個毒油事件，讓衛福部和地方政府各衛生單位人仰馬翻。但是為什麼會這樣人仰馬翻？我還是要跟部長再一次地談，你的決策、你的決定真的就造成這樣的混亂。","署長，我在這邊一定要好好請教你。臺中市政府去中聯油脂查廠，這件事情你知道嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，6月30日通報，我們7月1日協同臺中的……"],["陳委員清龍：衛生局。"],["姜署長至剛：衛生局食安處，我們去了中聯的廠區。"],["陳委員清龍：他們總共去兩次，對不對？就我知道，第2次你們衛福部就沒有派員啊！"],["姜署長至剛：第2次我們……"],["陳委員清龍：我就問你，我從媒體這裡看得清清楚楚，來，我唸給你聽：衛福部食藥署署長姜至剛表示，7月1日勒令中聯油脂停工後，初步看到改善報告，其中復工計畫並不合格，很多節點有待改善，並直言計畫都不合格，根本連去看都不用看，實在不知道臺中衛生局去看什麼。這段話是不是你講的？這段話是真的？"],["姜署長至剛：跟委員報告，我們是在7月4日的時候把整個事件做根本原因的分析……"],["陳委員清龍：我問你，這段話是不是你講的？"],["石部長崇良：跟委員說明，應該是這樣子，之前……"],["陳委員清龍：部長，我是在問署長。媒體刊登的這段話是不是署長講的？"],["石部長崇良：他這個有斷章取義啦！"],["陳委員清龍：什麼斷章取義？只要說是不是他講的就好了啊！"],["石部長崇良：之前他們有去看過了。"],["陳委員清龍：部長，你不要回答。我問署長這段話是不是他講的？為什麼地方政府去勘察，你有意見？"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，7月4日下午召開專家會議的時候，我們有看到報告，我已經提建議給廠，要他們直接修正了，因為我看到他的報告是不行的，我已經跟廠說不行了！"],["陳委員清龍：好，你看到報告是不行的，那臺中市政府衛生局不可以去看嗎？他要去看什麼？"],["姜署長至剛：這部分我們予以尊重。"],["陳委員清龍：那我問你啊！你問他說他要去看什麼，那他要跟你報告他要看什麼嗎？"],["姜署長至剛：我們予以尊重。我們看過，這個廠還要加油。"],["陳委員清龍：他幫你看，剛剛部長有講，中央、地方是一體的，今天這個廠勒令停工，再來它也要申請復工，不然整個產業鏈有問題，對不對？來，我問你，復工誰要負責任？能不能復工是要看衛福部，還是地方政府？"],["石部長崇良：當然這個是地方政府的權責……"],["陳委員清龍：對啊！"],["石部長崇良：但是因為它的改善計畫在我們的專家審完之後是不合格的，所以不能馬上就去檢視它要讓它復工，還需要再……"],["陳委員清龍：臺中市政府衛生局去又不是要同意它復工！"],["石部長崇良：不是，因為它還沒有看到我們給它的建議修正，你就去看……要改善啦！"],["陳委員清龍：你還是要表達沒有用，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：要改善啦！還沒改善就去看。"],["陳委員清龍：我跟你講，部長、署長，你剛剛談的已經很清楚啦，這一家廠商能不能復工，應該也是地方的權責，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：它所提的改善計畫等等，經過你們的專家會議審查認為還不OK嘛？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：這個部分你們就提供給臺中市政府嘛！"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：你的署長怎麼這麼厲害啊？「他們要去看什麼？有什麼好看？」地方政府關心，那也是他的權責啊！"],["姜署長至剛：報告委員，我知道！有些誤會啦！"],["陳委員清龍：誤會你就公開澄清啊！"],["姜署長至剛：我們是3天內……7月1日他才提，我們才知道……"],["陳委員清龍：誤會你就公開澄清啊！你都不澄清，我今天問你，你說誤會，那你之前為什麼不澄清？這麼多天了，你為什麼不澄清？那你現在跟我講誤會？署長，這件事情你的責任最大，所以我們台灣民眾黨的要求就是你要下台！你今天還在講誤會？牽涉到全體國人的食品健康安全，臺中市政府本來就有他的權責，你還指責地方到廠區去查察，還指責要去看什麼、有什麼好看，對吧？","最重要的是我們剛剛講的源頭管理，現在事件發生了，產品也下架了，我們偉大的衛福部一天一改變，改變到現在，通通要下架了！你20%的比例也不用了，反正通通下架了。這個你違反賴清德總統的命令哦！賴清德總統親口講得清清楚楚，20%以下的自主管理！對不對？我還沒有聽到賴總統親自說20%以下的也通通要下架，所以現在衛福部這個決策是凌駕賴清德總統的指示。","好，全部下架了，下架之後，這些不管第2層的、第3層的產品何去何從，怎麼處理？下架了，廠商都回收了，再來呢？後續怎麼追蹤？"],["石部長崇良：對於我們所公布的20%以下的預防性下架，但是檢驗如果合格的話，還是可以。"],["陳委員清龍：我還是跟部長講，這些產品有些是有有效期限的，可能是3天、5天、1個禮拜、1個月，有些的有效期限可能是1年、2年。這些下架的你們是怎麼去追蹤？大家都下架回收，退貨到原廠商，一層一層嘛！你東西從第1層到第2層，再到第3層，現在下架回收，從第3層回到第2層，再回到哪一層我也不知道。這些東西是銷毀，還是去哪裡？你們有沒有追蹤機制？有沒有要跟地方政府建立起追蹤機制？"],["石部長崇良：如果是油品的部分當然都下架回收，這個沒有問題……"],["陳委員清龍：對，產品的部分。"],["石部長崇良：產品的部分因為有涉及到，專家會議討論起來，原則上是20%以下的……"],["陳委員清龍：什麼都是專家會議，光是銷毀、回收也要專家會議喔！"],["石部長崇良：但是後來因為在執行上有一些地方衛生局判斷上的困難，所以後來才通通都預防性下架。預防性下架這些如果是合格的產品再……"],["陳委員清龍：對，下架了，我現在問的是這些下架產品最終的去處是要去哪裡？衛福部不管了？"],["石部長崇良：如果它能夠提出檢驗合格的證明，還是可以上架。"],["陳委員清龍：還可以再上架？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：所以那一批有問題的可能通通吃下肚子了，然後你現在再重新檢驗，沒問題的繼續讓它上架？我告訴部長，我來自地方，太了解了！再來農曆七月要做什麼，你知道嗎？民間的大普渡！你知道嗎？一間寺廟動不動就好幾百桌、好幾千桌。部長，普渡最常用的是什麼？一定要必備的東西是什麼，你知道嗎？普渡會放什麼，你知道嗎？泡麵！一定會有一箱泡麵，一定會有一罐沙拉油還是調合油，這些都是標準配備。現在剛好6月了，下個月就是農曆7月，這些下架的產品會不會變成普渡最好的供應商品？因為這些下架的東西一定會很便宜，如果你沒有銷毀，讓業者自己去處理，還是會用這樣的管道回到我們一般的市面上。所以現在說下架、檢驗沒問題又讓它上架，那檢驗有問題的要怎麼處理？我就跟你說有可能這樣啊！臺灣的風俗，農曆7月就是泡麵、沙拉油、調合油啊！"],["石部長崇良：我們現在說的是油品的部分都已經回收、下架、封存了，所以不會再流入到市面上……"],["陳委員清龍：我現在在跟你說產品啊！"],["石部長崇良：下面的商品部分，像有些沙拉醬……"],["陳委員清龍：那個有逾期的、有時效的就銷毀嘛！"],["石部長崇良：沙拉醬就要先預防性下架。"],["陳委員清龍：我現在問你，泡麵的有效期限多久你知道嗎？沙拉油的有效期限多久你知道嗎？"],["石部長崇良：泡麵比較久。"],["陳委員清龍：那我問你，泡麵比較久，還是油比較久？你連這個都搞不清楚！"],["石部長崇良：油的話是1年，泡麵也有半年。"],["陳委員清龍：對啊！所以絕對還在這一批之內啊！那我問你要不要銷毀？是不是要怎麼追蹤做最終的處置？你們都沒有！這個部分可能要跟地方政府合作，對不對？"],["石部長崇良：對。"],["陳委員清龍：你們有這樣想過嗎？統一銷毀，還是怎麼處理？我已經提醒你了，因為我從地方來，所以我了解。如果你沒有處理，這些油跟泡麵通通跑到普渡，有很多管道，了解嗎？我在這裡先提出這個意見，提供你們衛福部跟地方政府做參考，謝謝。"],["石部長崇良：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳清龍委員的質詢。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-26-18","speakers":["盧縣一","張嘉郡","王鴻薇","蘇清泉","徐巧芯","羅廷瑋","黃健豪","林沛祥","陳菁徽","邱慧洳","王育敏","林月琴","范雲","陳瑩","廖偉翔","林淑芬","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","陳昭姿","劉建國","楊瓊瓔","涂權吉","楊曜","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王正旭","陳冠廷","陳清龍","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","林德福","傅崐萁","林倩綺","許宇甄","洪毓祥"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2026-07-08"],"gazette_id":"1156101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部及經濟部就「食安問題爆不停，如何構建使國人安心生活就學\n與食品廠安全管理精進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查( 一) 委員廖偉翔等18 人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十四條及第二十五條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員蘇清泉等23人擬具\n「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員蘇清泉等20人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第十五條\n條文修正草案」案、( 五) 委員翁曉玲等17 人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、\n(七)委員羅智強等29人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(八)委員黃健豪等16\n人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「食品安全衛\n生管理法第十五條條文修正草案」案、(十)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第四十五\n條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員魯明哲等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正\n草案」案、(十二)委員王育敏等17人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法部分條文修正草案」案、(十三)\n委員林倩綺等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員陳超明\n等16人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第五十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(十五)委員黃健豪等23人\n擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條、第二十八條及第三十一條之一條文修正草案」案、(十\n六)委員張嘉郡等28人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十二條條文修正草案」案、(十七)委員王\n育敏等19人擬具「食品安全衛生管理法第二十八條條文修正草案」（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156101_00002"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}