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我自主的產業所以這樣子的資金我們是應該做個引導的檢討"},{"start":133.166,"end":141.49,"text":"所以我也期待就是說這個央行啊能夠把油資啊能夠推動產業升級但是現在資金並沒有真的進入到實體產業那在轉型最關鍵的時刻是反而這些基礎的產業資金性斷缺的不是單一產業的問題是國家經濟發展的危機"},{"start":152.475,"end":168.885,"text":"所以我們的無人機產業我們的航太精密工業以及在地的傳統產業的飛鴻供應鏈是不是難在這一波油資當中得到挹注呢所以在這邊本席就是直接的建議那應該跨部會的飲水工程專案艇實業的製作製造央行應該發動"},{"start":173.368,"end":194.858,"text":"定調引導的訊息化消極房賭為積極的引導跨部會的協作會同財政部經濟部對齊國家核心的產業戰略那方法是什麼呢專案的低利融資與提高信用保證陳述如此一來才有可能把房市"},{"start":195.638,"end":197.8,"text":"那總裁你怎麼看呢我覺得那個委員也在跟我上課"},{"start":211.495,"end":226.088,"text":"我覺得委員寫得很好第一個 跨部會協作會同財政部、經濟部對國家產業戰略專案低利融資以提高信用保證層數事實上我跟委員報告"},{"start":227.185,"end":244.353,"text":"我們在開會的時候我們也會我們事實上我們剛剛你提到的就是說我們資金到需要時的這邊比較缺乏事實上在這個部分那個政府現在已經是在做了"},{"start":245.333,"end":249.575,"text":"好但是我們現在的數據在你第二季所呈現你看我這個簡報我的信貸1.87兆不動產1.3兆製造業才1.02兆所以這樣的比例是不對的是是是所以對這個也就是說為什麼那來啦總裁啦既然你也認同我們自己的流向應該導向是不是在您能夠跟跨部會的來做這樣的議題的討論是是是對對對"},{"start":273.766,"end":275.488,"text":"好那再來我講到這個房市降溫這個其實這草房這件事情來講總裁你認為有沒有達到目的"},{"start":284.862,"end":307.433,"text":"我覺得我要跟誇獎我要肯定總裁的是打投機炒房打投機打炒房這個是我覺得這是全民公司即使是不動產所有相關業者大家都認同那這一個到底投機的這個行為有沒有已經抑止了對總裁你們的理監事會怎麼認定呢"},{"start":308.929,"end":329.228,"text":"事實上我們就有三個因素說我們還是要持續觀察我們有三個因素第一個因素就是說我們剛剛就是你在講的就是說他的信用資源本來我們是說要這個信用資源要到實體產業去結果他就到股市去"},{"start":330.069,"end":336.333,"text":"所以就是說它的集中度下降呢以前我們就說讓你的集中度下降但是呢它下降了如果說你認為在我們投機這個投機這個炒作這個房地產的部分已經降溫的話確實有抑制但是我們信用管制是不是應該要有第二階段的調整那我在包括本席的辦公室都已經白紙黑字的收到"},{"start":360.006,"end":367.329,"text":"一些中小殷實的房地產他撐不下去他們在信用的當中是非常非常好的從來沒有什麼信用瑕疵可是因為你這樣的陳述的這樣的限制之下齊頭式的平等的信用管制已經打擊到不只打擊到殷實的確實這個信用貸款非常好的而且也不做炒房的都是在做自用住宅的這些中小型的這個"},{"start":390.878,"end":413.831,"text":"這個房屋這個房地產業者這個房屋業者就是建商業者但是你也同時打擊到實質的換屋者這個也是我實質聽到的我真的需要放房我現在就是二房那我因為有孩子了或者是說孩子想要跟我們結婚了即使要跟家裡一起住我需許放房"},{"start":414.851,"end":435.624,"text":"那政策應該是從戶數管理轉向風險與信用的管理拒絕一刀切所以房市降溫已經確定指標了這個是本席給你肯定的退按量的銳減受信水位的下降包括量縮價穩從市場過去的瘋狂搶購到現在轉入去跨庫存的階段所以呢而且全台的房價確實也鬆動進入到這個修正的格局"},{"start":444.329,"end":466.728,"text":"所以在這修正格局當中我們還是回歸政策我們是要讓人民住得起買得起這是兩個層次住者有其物我可以是租給他住者有其物我可以讓他買得起也是住者有其物好那到底什麼叫做讓就台灣來講我們到底什麼叫做住者有其物他的負擔標準是什麼好那"},{"start":467.469,"end":468.069,"text":"本席也有爬書啦"},{"start":497.349,"end":499.73,"text":"那開發中國家呢是你的這個三到六倍那對於房貸的負擔率每個月的這個房貸佔月收入的是三分之一以下好台灣全國平均我不敢講因為誰落差待到我就把他空格但是我們的房貸負擔率確實是佔了四成二這是平均喔"},{"start":519.46,"end":541.09,"text":"但是如果放眼整個區域來講現在內政部不動產資訊平台所提供的台北市是不吃不喝26到34年也就是你的年收入平均年收入靠掉了你的淨所得的26倍到34倍是全台購屋嚴重最重的甚至是世界排名第一數一數二的"},{"start":542.45,"end":549.795,"text":"那新北市跟台中也是要落到不吃不喝11到11倍這個我本席都認為這樣的官方數據我都還很存疑那台北市的房貸的這個負擔率呢台北市都達到換6成5耶 天啊所以這樣的負擔量到底配合你央行你的信貸的緊縮你是要達到什麼程度才讓我人民買得起"},{"start":569.386,"end":574.269,"text":"租得起 如果租得起這是新青安市財政部的那我就不跟你檢討但是如果是買得起這件事情你這樣的緩降那投機也易住了那對於我的政策目標讓人民買得起你要達到什麼程度"},{"start":586.636,"end":606.83,"text":"你要達到已開發國家的年所得的不吃不喝1.8年到5.5年嗎就才是喔 而且讓我每個人民他的月收入 房貸佔月收入到三成以下你是要打房打到 不要說打房是你的房價希望趨向降到這個程度嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":611.694,"end":625.889,"text":"我不知道總裁你要不要回應一下委員的這個PowerPoint我們帶回去所以我覺得是要一個目標你的信貸你要達到什麼目的你要告訴我們人民你的意見都值得參考我們帶回去"},{"start":631.255,"end":639.238,"text":"那所以本席在這邊就直接的調這具在你的信用管制之下的大原則我認為應該要進度調整了你不要一刀切切到換屋族切到真的首購族所以差異化的這個管理換款換屋的切結期包括優良建商的分級這一點很重要優良建商不是大建商喔只要是"},{"start":657.586,"end":669.072,"text":"因此他信貸沒瑕疵他過往的紀錄也沒有投資你也應該是優良建商的分級不過我很簡單的回答包括檢討高價住宅的門檻以現在我高雄就好過往可能一坪12萬10萬就可以現在沒有一坪18萬到23萬甚至25萬是不可能造價"},{"start":683.8,"end":689.681,"text":"所以你這邊的高價房屋公司我要放屋的時候兩房變三房的時候一下就突破4000萬我跟委員報告啦很簡單的回應你剛剛就是說對我們對鎖過的要限制他我們對換屋的我們限制他事實上呢我們對鎖過的我們也沒有限制他我們對換屋主我們就是說你18個月之內"},{"start":710.065,"end":713.066,"text":"我認為這個政策應該稍微再放寬我直接具體建議總裁你待會去研究適度提高換屋族的貸款乘數為7到7乘5因為已經沒有投機這件行為了你的預售屋這個已經沒有這個紅單已經不轉了那放屋的竊竊期延長歇買"},{"start":731.511,"end":739.417,"text":"然後賣的這個舊屋出售的切結期因為你希望人家一年內賣掉你的舊屋如果市場上有那麼熱沒問題問題現在市場上沒有那麼熱所以當我要換屋的時候"},{"start":746.006,"end":752.308,"text":"一年半啊 但是現在的一年半不太可能你一年半當中大部分的都是在一年之內他就可以換屋那這個我覺得你跟我的語情總裁我現在講的是民意我個人沒有要換屋我個人也絕對不自產所以我現在講的是我高雄居民在換屋當中尤其首購當中這兩個出去給我的澄清然後再來"},{"start":775.115,"end":790.008,"text":"優良建商這是我白紙黑紙我會把人民給我的陳情直接轉函給你對於優良建商的認定你應該要放寬土建農的融資中小企業我現在是不是為大建商講話為我真的中小企業財務健全從來不炒房的紀錄的來跟你陳情檢討高房價這也是限制到我換屋主"},{"start":797.954,"end":814.124,"text":"隨便一換我都會碰到四千萬的朋友為什麼豪宅在台北市交七千萬在高雄我就一定是設定四千萬這個豪宅的定義有問題這四千萬在高雄已經不算豪宅了你在我的選區 仁武區就一般的小資族"},{"start":814.964,"end":834.656,"text":"那個都是幾乎你沒有準備的2500到3000你幾乎買不起耶所以包括換屋換大的包括三人房這個東西好再來謝謝主席那這個部分總裁你稍微回應一下吧你認為你要研究要怎麼的時程是怎麼回應"},{"start":836.797,"end":857.393,"text":"我們會把你的這個拿回去study啦你下一次的禮監事會是什麼時候我們是九月九月的時候可以針對本席的這些意見能夠有一個具體的回應嗎好嗎好 我們結束林黛樺委員的質詢不過總裁可以就剛才一些質詢的內容到各縣市去看看各縣市差異其實是有的好 謝謝我們接下來請劉書斌委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:51:11.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:51:12.414000+08:00","text":"有請總裁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-09T09:51:12.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:51:12.434000+08:00","text":"請總裁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:51:12.434000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T09:51:13.434000+08:00","text":"林委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:51:12.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:51:37.135000+08:00","text":"總裁，總體資金「棄實向虛」流錯向，央行切勿盲目打房，並應引導游資挺製造、精準補貼保障首購族。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:51:38.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:52:00.629000+08:00","text":"我們現在資金的流向，這是你們在第二季的理監事會所呈現的數字，股市的信用餘額暴增1.87兆，不動產放款增加1.3兆，製造業放款僅微增1.02兆，到底這樣的比例符合或適合我們國家嗎？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:52:02.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:53:02.694000+08:00","text":"本席認為不妥，因為沒有所謂最適比例，但是對於本國來講，因為地緣政治的關係，在這樣的境況下，我們的國防自主以及相關非紅供應鏈的建立，包括糧食自主率等等，所以我們當然……而且第二個，長久以來，臺灣人民這幾年來所累積的產業生態系，即使是傳統產業，任何傳統產業，包括扣件業，就是一個很完整的產業鏈，因為打造了很精實的製造業生態系，所以在面對區域政治風險的時候，對於我們國家的特殊性來講，在製造業的放款應該要大大地增加，因此我們投入製造業的資金應該要是不動產或股市的三倍以上，這是本席的建議，否則建立不起我們的自主國防、自主產業，所以我們應該對於這樣的資金流向引導來檢討。","quality":0.832},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:53:21.707000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:53:49.721000+08:00","text":"央行原本期待能夠將游資引導推動產業升級，現在資金並沒有真的進入到實體產業，在轉型最關鍵的時刻，反而這些基礎產業的資金是斷炊的，這不是單一產業的問題，而是國家經濟發展的危機，所以我們的無人機產業、航太精密工業以及在地傳統產業的非紅供應鏈，是不是很難在這一波游資當中得到挹注呢？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:53:50.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:54:13.574000+08:00","text":"因此在這邊本席直接建議，應該進行跨部會的引水工程，專案挺實體製造，央行應該發動定調引導的訊號，化消極防堵為積極的引導；跨部會協作，會同財政部、經濟部，對齊國家核心產業戰略；那麼方法是什麼呢？","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:54:14.254000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:54:21.838000+08:00","text":"專案的低利融資與提高信用保證成數，如此一來才有可能把房市、股市退下來的閒置游資實質地引導進入非紅供應鏈與臺灣製造。","quality":0.463},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:54:22.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:54:23.659000+08:00","text":"總裁，你怎麼看呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:54:23.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:54:52.027000+08:00","text":"我覺得委員也在幫我上課，我覺得委員寫得很好，第一個，跨部會協作，會同財政部、經濟部，對齊國家核心產業戰略，以及專案低利融資與提高信用保證成數。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:54:52.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:12.333000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，我們在開會的時候也會……剛剛你提到我們的資金在虛與實之間有一邊比較短缺，事實上，在這個部分，政府現在已經在做了，所以我才會說……好。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:12.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:13.954000+08:00","text":"但是你們在第二季所呈現的數據，你可以看到我的簡報，股市信用餘額增加1.87兆，不動產放款增加1.3兆，而製造業放款才增加1.02兆，這樣的比例是不對的。","quality":0.613},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:13.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:14.434000+08:00","text":"是，所以這也就是為什麼……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:14.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:16.015000+08:00","text":"總裁，既然你也認同我們資金的流向應該導向……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:16.015000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:17.015000+08:00","text":"是，我當然認同。","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:16.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:16.515000+08:00","text":"您是不是能夠跨部會來做這樣議題的討論？好嗎？是。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:41.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:55:42.468000+08:00","text":"再來，我要講到房市降溫，就炒房這件事情來講，總裁，你認為有沒有達到目的？","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:55:51.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:56:05.249000+08:00","text":"我要肯定總裁的是打投機炒房，打投機、打炒房，我覺得這是全民共識，即使是不動產相關業者，大家都認同。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:56:06.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:56:10.591000+08:00","text":"至於到底這個投機的行為是否已經抑止？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:56:12.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:56:14.413000+08:00","text":"總裁，你們的理監事會怎麼認定呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T09:56:16.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:56:40.351000+08:00","text":"我們有三個因素作為依據，接下來還是要持續觀察，第一個因素就是剛剛你在講的信用資源，本來這個信用資源要到實體產業去，結果它到股市去了，所以就是集中度下降了，以前我們說要讓集中度下降，但是它下降了……","quality":0.876},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:56:40.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:56:42.152000+08:00","text":"總裁，如果你認為投機炒作房地產的部分已經降溫的話，這部分確實有抑制，但是我們的信用管制是不是應該要有第二階段的調整？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:56:42.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:00.811000+08:00","text":"包括本席的辦公室都已經白紙黑字地收到一些中小殷實的房地產說他撐不下去，他們的信用是非常好的，從來沒有什麼信用瑕疵，可是在央行對於成數管制的限制之下，齊頭式平等的信用管制已經打擊到……不只打擊到殷實的、信用非常好的，而且也不做炒房，都是在做自用住宅的這些中小型的房地產業者、房屋業者、建商業者，你也同時打擊到實質的換屋者，這個也是我聽到的實際例子，他真的需要買房，現在是兩房，因為有孩子了，或者是說孩子結婚了但想要跟父母一起住，所以急需換房。","quality":0.856},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:02.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:07.715000+08:00","text":"因此政策應該是從戶數管理轉向風險與信用管理，拒絕一刀切。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:08.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:22.604000+08:00","text":"目前房市降溫已經確立具體指標了，這是本席要給你肯定的，包括推案量銳減、授信水位下降，以及量縮價穩，從市場過去的瘋狂搶購到現在轉入去化庫存的階段，而且全臺房價鬆動，進入修正的格局。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:31.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:45.261000+08:00","text":"在這樣的修正格局當中，我們還是回歸政策，我們是要讓人民住得起、買得起，這是兩個層次，住者有其屋，可以是租給他，這是住者有其屋，也可以讓他買得起，這也是住者有其屋。","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:48.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:51.567000+08:00","text":"就臺灣來講，到底什麼叫做住者有其屋？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:51.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T09:58:53.488000+08:00","text":"他的負擔標準是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:58:53.488000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T09:59:25.450000+08:00","text":"本席也都已經爬梳了，按照房價所得比，就是購屋的痛苦指數，依據世界銀行的定義，就已開發國家而言，是要不吃不喝的年收入總所得1.8年到5.5年，也就是年收入的1.8倍到5.5倍，也就是1.8年到5.5年不吃不喝的情況下，這是針對已開發國家，世界銀行定義這是合理的國際房價所得比；而開發中國家則是3到6倍；至於對於房貸的負擔率，是每個月房貸占月收入三分之一以下。","quality":0.225},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T09:59:25.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:00:13.092000+08:00","text":"臺灣全國平均我不敢講，因為落差實在太大，我就把它空著，但是我們的房貸負擔率是占月收入的四成二，這是平均，如果放眼整個區域來講，以內政部不動產資訊平台所提供的數據，臺北市的部分是要不吃不喝26到34年，也就是平均年收入扣掉……淨所得的26倍到34倍，是全臺購屋負擔最重的縣市，甚至是世界排名數一數二的；新北市跟臺中也是要不吃不喝11到17倍，本席對於這樣的官方數據都還很存疑。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:00:13.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:00:15.314000+08:00","text":"臺北市房貸的負擔率都達到快六成五耶，天啊！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:00:15.374000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:00:36.806000+08:00","text":"這樣的負擔量配合央行信貸的緊縮政策，要達到什麼程度才能讓人民買得起、住得起、租得起？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:00:37.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:00:41.249000+08:00","text":"如果租得起是財政部的新青安政策，那我就不跟你檢討，但是如果是買得起這件事情，你這樣緩降，有效抑制投機客，至於讓人民買得起的政策目標要達到什麼程度？","quality":0.761},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:00:54.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:00.441000+08:00","text":"用已開發國家標準來看，你的「房價所得比」要達到年所得不吃不喝1.8到5.5倍，這才合理喔！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:00.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:13.810000+08:00","text":"而且要讓人民的房貸支出占月收入的三成以下，你是要打房……不要說打房，你希望房價趨向降到這個程度嗎？","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:13.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:13.830000+08:00","text":"是這樣嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:19.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:19.955000+08:00","text":"總裁要不要回應一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:21.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:25.742000+08:00","text":"委員的PowerPoint，我們帶回去……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:28.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:32.088000+08:00","text":"我覺得要有一個目標，信貸政策要達到什麼目的，你要告訴我們人民啊！","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:32.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:01:32.869000+08:00","text":"你的意見值得我們參考，我們帶回去。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:01:38.695000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:11.390000+08:00","text":"本席就直接建議，我認為你信用管制之下的大原則應該要進入調整了，你不要一刀切，切到換屋族、切到真的首購族，所以差異化的管理、放寬換屋的切結期，包括優良建商的分級，這一點很重要，優良建商不是大建商，只要覈實它信貸沒瑕疵，過往的紀錄也沒有投機，它也應該是優良建商。","quality":0.888},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:12.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:12.951000+08:00","text":"對，不過我很簡單的回答……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:13.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:34.641000+08:00","text":"包括檢討高價住宅的門檻，以現在高雄為例，過往可能一坪造價12萬、10萬就可以，現在一坪沒有18萬到23萬，甚至25萬是不可能的，所以高價房屋光是換屋兩房變三房的時候，一下就突破4,000萬了！","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:34.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:36.681000+08:00","text":"我跟委員報告，很簡單的回應你剛剛所說的：我們對於首購要限制他，我們對換屋要限制他，但是事實上，我們對首購的沒有限制他，對換屋族則是如果18個月之內把舊屋賣出去，都不會受到……","quality":0.671},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:57.065000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:58.365000+08:00","text":"我認為這個政策應該稍微再放寬，我直接具體建議啦，總裁帶回去研究。好。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:58.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:02:59.886000+08:00","text":"適度提高換屋族的貸款成數為七到七成五，因為已經沒有投機這個行為了，預售屋紅單已經不能轉了。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:02:59.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:26.397000+08:00","text":"另外，我建議放寬換屋切結期，延長「先買後賣」的舊屋出售切結期限，因為你希望他一年內賣掉舊屋，如果市場上有那麼熱，那沒問題，問題是現在市場上沒有那麼熱，所以當我要換屋的時候……","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:26.397000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:33.006000+08:00","text":"不是一年，是18個月。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:33.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:34.146000+08:00","text":"對啊，一年半，但是現在一年半不太可能。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:34.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:35.146000+08:00","text":"事實上……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:35.146000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:36.146000+08:00","text":"剛才我口誤，我講一年，更正是一年半……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:34.407000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:35.947000+08:00","text":"大部分都是在一年之內就可以換屋。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:36.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:36.727000+08:00","text":"我覺得你跟我們輿情……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:36.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:37.727000+08:00","text":"我們所說的……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:36.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:39.048000+08:00","text":"總裁，我現在講的是民意，我個人沒有要換屋，我個人也絕對不置產，我現在講的是高雄居民在換屋時，尤其首購時，是這兩個族群給我的陳情。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:39.048000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:03:40.048000+08:00","text":"好，委員的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:03:39.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:12.224000+08:00","text":"再來優良建商，這是我白紙黑字……我會把人民給我的陳情直接函轉給你，對於優良建商的認定，你應該要放寬土建融資限制。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:12.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:15.586000+08:00","text":"我現在不是為大建商講話，我真的是為了財務健全、紀錄中從來不炒房的中小企業來跟你陳情。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:15.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:32.819000+08:00","text":"再來，檢討高價住宅門檻，這也是限制到換屋族，隨便一換都會跳到4,000萬，為什麼在臺北市7,000萬叫豪宅，在高雄就只設定4,000萬？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:32.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:46.467000+08:00","text":"這個豪宅的定義有問題，4,000萬在高雄已經不算豪宅了，如果在我的選區仁武區，一般的小資族沒有準備2,500萬、3,000萬幾乎買不起耶！","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:47.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:55.192000+08:00","text":"所以包括換屋，要換大的三人房等，這個東西……再來……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:55.192000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:04:56.192000+08:00","text":"時間到。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:04:55.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:01.656000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席，這個部分總裁稍微回應一下吧，你要研究的時程、怎麼回應？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:03.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:06.479000+08:00","text":"我們會把你的建議拿回去study。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:07.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:08.821000+08:00","text":"你們下一次的理監事會是什麼時候？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:08.941000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:10.022000+08:00","text":"我們是9月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:10.362000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:14.646000+08:00","text":"9月的時候，針對本席的這些意見，能夠有一個具體的回應嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊總裁金龍","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:14.646000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:15.967000+08:00","text":"是，可以。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:15.967000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:23.993000+08:00","text":"我們結束林岱樺委員的質詢，不過總裁可以就剛才一些質詢的內容到各縣市去看看，各縣市其實是有差異的。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-09T10:05:24.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-09T10:05:24.393000+08:00","text":"接下來請劉書彬委員。","quality":0.889}]},"gazette":{"lineno":231,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時51分）有請總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：總裁，總體資金「棄實向虛」流錯向，央行切勿盲目打房，並應引導游資挺製造、精準補貼保障首購族。我們現在資金的流向，這是你們在第二季的理監事會所呈現的數字，股市的信用餘額暴增1.87兆，不動產放款增加1.3兆，製造業放款僅微增1.02兆，到底這樣的比例符合或適合我們國家嗎？本席認為不妥，因為沒有所謂最適比例，但是對於本國來講，因為地緣政治的關係，在這樣的境況下，我們的國防自主以及相關非紅供應鏈的建立，包括糧食自主率等等，所以我們當然……而且第二個，長久以來，臺灣人民這幾年來所累積的產業生態系，即使是傳統產業，任何傳統產業，包括扣件業，就是一個很完整的產業鏈，因為打造了很精實的製造業生態系，所以在面對區域政治風險的時候，對於我們國家的特殊性來講，在製造業的放款應該要大大地增加，因此我們投入製造業的資金應該要是不動產或股市的三倍以上，這是本席的建議，否則建立不起我們的自主國防、自主產業，所以我們應該對於這樣的資金流向引導來檢討。央行原本期待能夠將游資引導推動產業升級，現在資金並沒有真的進入到實體產業，在轉型最關鍵的時刻，反而這些基礎產業的資金是斷炊的，這不是單一產業的問題，而是國家經濟發展的危機，所以我們的無人機產業、航太精密工業以及在地傳統產業的非紅供應鏈，是不是很難在這一波游資當中得到挹注呢？","因此在這邊本席直接建議，應該進行跨部會的引水工程，專案挺實體製造，央行應該發動定調引導的訊號，化消極防堵為積極的引導；跨部會協作，會同財政部、經濟部，對齊國家核心產業戰略；那麼方法是什麼呢？專案的低利融資與提高信用保證成數，如此一來才有可能把房市、股市退下來的閒置游資實質地引導進入非紅供應鏈與臺灣製造。總裁，你怎麼看呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員也在幫我上課，我覺得委員寫得很好，第一個，跨部會協作，會同財政部、經濟部，對齊國家核心產業戰略，以及專案低利融資與提高信用保證成數。我跟委員報告，我們在開會的時候也會……剛剛你提到我們的資金在虛與實之間有一邊比較短缺，事實上，在這個部分，政府現在已經在做了，所以我才會說……"],["林委員岱樺：好。但是你們在第二季所呈現的數據，你可以看到我的簡報，股市信用餘額增加1.87兆，不動產放款增加1.3兆，而製造業放款才增加1.02兆，這樣的比例是不對的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以這也就是為什麼……"],["林委員岱樺：總裁，既然你也認同我們資金的流向應該導向……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我當然認同。"],["林委員岱樺：您是不是能夠跨部會來做這樣議題的討論？好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["林委員岱樺：再來，我要講到房市降溫，就炒房這件事情來講，總裁，你認為有沒有達到目的？我要肯定總裁的是打投機炒房，打投機、打炒房，我覺得這是全民共識，即使是不動產相關業者，大家都認同。至於到底這個投機的行為是否已經抑止？總裁，你們的理監事會怎麼認定呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有三個因素作為依據，接下來還是要持續觀察，第一個因素就是剛剛你在講的信用資源，本來這個信用資源要到實體產業去，結果它到股市去了，所以就是集中度下降了，以前我們說要讓集中度下降，但是它下降了……"],["林委員岱樺：總裁，如果你認為投機炒作房地產的部分已經降溫的話，這部分確實有抑制，但是我們的信用管制是不是應該要有第二階段的調整？包括本席的辦公室都已經白紙黑字地收到一些中小殷實的房地產說他撐不下去，他們的信用是非常好的，從來沒有什麼信用瑕疵，可是在央行對於成數管制的限制之下，齊頭式平等的信用管制已經打擊到……不只打擊到殷實的、信用非常好的，而且也不做炒房，都是在做自用住宅的這些中小型的房地產業者、房屋業者、建商業者，你也同時打擊到實質的換屋者，這個也是我聽到的實際例子，他真的需要買房，現在是兩房，因為有孩子了，或者是說孩子結婚了但想要跟父母一起住，所以急需換房。因此政策應該是從戶數管理轉向風險與信用管理，拒絕一刀切。","目前房市降溫已經確立具體指標了，這是本席要給你肯定的，包括推案量銳減、授信水位下降，以及量縮價穩，從市場過去的瘋狂搶購到現在轉入去化庫存的階段，而且全臺房價鬆動，進入修正的格局。在這樣的修正格局當中，我們還是回歸政策，我們是要讓人民住得起、買得起，這是兩個層次，住者有其屋，可以是租給他，這是住者有其屋，也可以讓他買得起，這也是住者有其屋。就臺灣來講，到底什麼叫做住者有其屋？他的負擔標準是什麼？本席也都已經爬梳了，按照房價所得比，就是購屋的痛苦指數，依據世界銀行的定義，就已開發國家而言，是要不吃不喝的年收入總所得1.8年到5.5年，也就是年收入的1.8倍到5.5倍，也就是1.8年到5.5年不吃不喝的情況下，這是針對已開發國家，世界銀行定義這是合理的國際房價所得比；而開發中國家則是3到6倍；至於對於房貸的負擔率，是每個月房貸占月收入三分之一以下。臺灣全國平均我不敢講，因為落差實在太大，我就把它空著，但是我們的房貸負擔率是占月收入的四成二，這是平均，如果放眼整個區域來講，以內政部不動產資訊平台所提供的數據，臺北市的部分是要不吃不喝26到34年，也就是平均年收入扣掉……淨所得的26倍到34倍，是全臺購屋負擔最重的縣市，甚至是世界排名數一數二的；新北市跟臺中也是要不吃不喝11到17倍，本席對於這樣的官方數據都還很存疑。臺北市房貸的負擔率都達到快六成五耶，天啊！這樣的負擔量配合央行信貸的緊縮政策，要達到什麼程度才能讓人民買得起、住得起、租得起？如果租得起是財政部的新青安政策，那我就不跟你檢討，但是如果是買得起這件事情，你這樣緩降，有效抑制投機客，至於讓人民買得起的政策目標要達到什麼程度？用已開發國家標準來看，你的「房價所得比」要達到年所得不吃不喝1.8到5.5倍，這才合理喔！而且要讓人民的房貸支出占月收入的三成以下，你是要打房……不要說打房，你希望房價趨向降到這個程度嗎？是這樣嗎？總裁要不要回應一下？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員的PowerPoint，我們帶回去……"],["林委員岱樺：我覺得要有一個目標，信貸政策要達到什麼目的，你要告訴我們人民啊！"],["楊總裁金龍：你的意見值得我們參考，我們帶回去。"],["林委員岱樺：本席就直接建議，我認為你信用管制之下的大原則應該要進入調整了，你不要一刀切，切到換屋族、切到真的首購族，所以差異化的管理、放寬換屋的切結期，包括優良建商的分級，這一點很重要，優良建商不是大建商，只要覈實它信貸沒瑕疵，過往的紀錄也沒有投機，它也應該是優良建商。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不過我很簡單的回答……"],["林委員岱樺：包括檢討高價住宅的門檻，以現在高雄為例，過往可能一坪造價12萬、10萬就可以，現在一坪沒有18萬到23萬，甚至25萬是不可能的，所以高價房屋光是換屋兩房變三房的時候，一下就突破4,000萬了！"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，很簡單的回應你剛剛所說的：我們對於首購要限制他，我們對換屋要限制他，但是事實上，我們對首購的沒有限制他，對換屋族則是如果18個月之內把舊屋賣出去，都不會受到……"],["林委員岱樺：我認為這個政策應該稍微再放寬，我直接具體建議啦，總裁帶回去研究。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["林委員岱樺：適度提高換屋族的貸款成數為七到七成五，因為已經沒有投機這個行為了，預售屋紅單已經不能轉了。另外，我建議放寬換屋切結期，延長「先買後賣」的舊屋出售切結期限，因為你希望他一年內賣掉舊屋，如果市場上有那麼熱，那沒問題，問題是現在市場上沒有那麼熱，所以當我要換屋的時候……"],["楊總裁金龍：不是一年，是18個月。"],["林委員岱樺：對啊，一年半，但是現在一年半不太可能。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上……"],["林委員岱樺：剛才我口誤，我講一年，更正是一年半……"],["楊總裁金龍：大部分都是在一年之內就可以換屋。"],["林委員岱樺：我覺得你跟我們輿情……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們所說的……"],["林委員岱樺：總裁，我現在講的是民意，我個人沒有要換屋，我個人也絕對不置產，我現在講的是高雄居民在換屋時，尤其首購時，是這兩個族群給我的陳情。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，委員的……"],["林委員岱樺：再來優良建商，這是我白紙黑字……我會把人民給我的陳情直接函轉給你，對於優良建商的認定，你應該要放寬土建融資限制。我現在不是為大建商講話，我真的是為了財務健全、紀錄中從來不炒房的中小企業來跟你陳情。再來，檢討高價住宅門檻，這也是限制到換屋族，隨便一換都會跳到4,000萬，為什麼在臺北市7,000萬叫豪宅，在高雄就只設定4,000萬？這個豪宅的定義有問題，4,000萬在高雄已經不算豪宅了，如果在我的選區仁武區，一般的小資族沒有準備2,500萬、3,000萬幾乎買不起耶！所以包括換屋，要換大的三人房等，這個東西……再來……"],["主席：時間到。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝主席，這個部分總裁稍微回應一下吧，你要研究的時程、怎麼回應？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會把你的建議拿回去study。"],["林委員岱樺：你們下一次的理監事會是什麼時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是9月。"],["林委員岱樺：9月的時候，針對本席的這些意見，能夠有一個具體的回應嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，可以。"],["林委員岱樺：謝謝。"],["主席：我們結束林岱樺委員的質詢，不過總裁可以就剛才一些質詢的內容到各縣市去看看，各縣市其實是有差異的。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":578,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-21","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","林岱樺","劉書彬","賴士葆","李坤城","陳玉珍","林思銘","王世堅","羅明才","邱志偉","葉元之","洪毓祥","顏寬恒"],"page_start":527,"meetingDate":["2026-07-09"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍就「股市、通膨、匯率與房市多重風險中，中央銀行中長期因應策略與\n政策工具」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156102_00003"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}