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標案金額高達2兆1501億"},{"start":1626.613,"end":1643.688,"text":"成為重大工程有力的後盾並同步推動企業服務廉政平台協力企業釐清法規界限減少舞弊風險那各檢察機關指揮廉政署調查局積極偵辦國營事業貪圖案件廉政署從109至今偵辦國營事業貪圖案件20案涉案人數99人"},{"start":1648.152,"end":1676.528,"text":"貪污不法金額6500多萬元調查局自110年受理到目前只受理415件移送118件起訴了61件移送案件主要集中在中油 台電 自來水等國營事業移送罪名主要是政府採購法 貪污及詐欺等罪那有關中油三件案是有涉及及符號工程款項呢這個檢查機關已經依法分案偵辦"},{"start":1677.529,"end":1706.583,"text":"那本部不介入不干預具體的個案支持檢察官依法獨立辦案秉持客觀中立勿枉勿縱徹底釐清事實本部將持續精進各項連任作為整合查辦局預防資源情話跨機關的合作打造從源頭防灘監控過程事後查辦的完整網絡為公共建設與設備發展進入穩固的法治誠信的一個基礎以上報告敬請主席各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":1708.902,"end":1725.549,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我們就先確定議事錄請問各位那上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏好 如果沒有的話那麼我們就議事錄確定好 那麼接下來我們再請法務部調查局陳局長"},{"start":1732.365,"end":1746.702,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天應邀列席貴委員會就中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪毒案件查處成效進行專題報告請提出報告如次進行指教"},{"start":1748.003,"end":1767.341,"text":"國營事業掌握龐大的公共資源所以如果發生不法的弊端常常是引起社會高度的矚目雖然民國94年修正刑法公務員的定義將國營事業人員排除在刑法第十條第一項第一款前段的身份公務員但是依據政府採購法"},{"start":1768.502,"end":1780.112,"text":"辦理採購的時候其這個承辦跟監辦的人員仍然視為刑法上的授權公務員因此本局仍然將這一類列為我們貪毒案件的偵辦的對象"},{"start":1781.843,"end":1810.03,"text":"那另外廠商在參標國營事業辦理政府採購法案件的時候如果是涉犯到該法的犯罪因為這一類的犯罪經常是貪圖案件的前期行為那因此本局也將它列為我們偵辦貪圖案件的一個類型那其次報告近年國營事業貪圖案件查處的成效那統計110年到114年我們總共移送了有118案那目前起訴了有61案"},{"start":1812.403,"end":1841.622,"text":"那移送的这个法条主要是以违反政府采购法是诈诉违标类型是最多那其次是贪污之罪条例收贿跟诈取财物的次之那刑法诈欺罪的再次之那本局落实查处的作为第一点是落实辖区经营积极来发掘这个贪毒的线索那如果一经发掘到有不法我们会立刻启动调查报请检察官指挥来依法来侦办"},{"start":1842.262,"end":1861.282,"text":"那第二點是強化這個偵辦的能量精進我們的偵查的技巧那積極來收證偵辦有關這個國營事業人員的這個貪圖的案件來達到嚇阻犯罪的效果那第三點是加強這個廉政的宣導尤其是宣導公益階幣者保護法"},{"start":1861.843,"end":1880.574,"text":"那第四點有關中油三接福報工程款的爭議本局在114年8月的時候有接到檢舉那我們馬上就啟動了調查也細數檢察官在指揮偵辦中那結與本局外勤受理檢舉不法的案件一定會積極的來調查依法"},{"start":1883.296,"end":1897.185,"text":"來以行政中立依法來調查然後已經查獲到不法的事證一定會積極的偵辦那證據到哪裡我們就辦到哪裡以嚴懲不法以上報告敬請指教 謝謝好 謝謝局長那麼我們接下來再請經濟部的何次長"},{"start":1911.824,"end":1927.755,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士 先生感謝貴委員會對本部各項業務的協助與指教本部緊就中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪圖案件查處的成效提出專案報告"},{"start":1929.524,"end":1948.973,"text":"本部所屬的事業新辦重大工程的建設是為了確保工程專業性效率以及品質得依政府採購法相關的規定委託廠商提供技術服務包括與技術有關的可行性研究規劃 設計 建造 專案管理等有關媒體報導第三接收站二期"},{"start":1949.873,"end":1979.273,"text":"中油公司系依據前接政府採購法相關的程序及規定選定國內知名且具海事工程專業技術服務豐富經驗的台灣世西辦理相關的設計預算以及招標文件的編列依照政府採購法相關的規定本部所屬的事業辦理相關工程的採購在採購公告之前應辦理公開閱覽的程序公開化透明化藉由公開徵求廠商或民眾的意見"},{"start":1980.333,"end":1997.662,"text":"來提升公共工程的這個規劃品質反映公眾意見後完成招標文件的編訂於公告前依照政府採購法成立採購評選委員會審定招標文件中的評選項目評選的標準以及評定後方式之後方辦理"},{"start":1998.482,"end":2022.964,"text":"正式的公告 中油公司本次的採購程序 藉由上開的政府採購法相關的規定來執行過程中並沒有任何的廠商向中油或公共工程委員會提出異議申訴本案113年就有接獲檢舉 經過政風單位的調查並未發現不法的情勢這次媒體所稱有錄音檔 新市政本部會再啟動調查"},{"start":2024.165,"end":2046.788,"text":"也會全力配合檢調進行查證近三年來本部國營事業政風單位主動發掘疑涉貪圖不法線索經司法偵辦後起訴的案件包括緩起訴偵查後改以一般不法起訴的案件總共12案包括今年度起訴重大社會矚目的案件"},{"start":2047.87,"end":2066.211,"text":"台電公司合二廠林口電廠徵信及租信廠廠長的收賄案以及中油公司油品行銷事業部高雄營業處的鄭姓前組長涉嫌收賄收賄案以上報告經營指教敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":2068.151,"end":2082.56,"text":"好 謝謝次長那麼我們待會在中油的董事長方董事長報告完之後我還想再多邀請公共工程委員會的副主委然後也來幫我們報告一下好 謝謝那接下來就先請方董事長"},{"start":2092.379,"end":2117.06,"text":"主席各位委員大家好今天的承蒙委員會邀請中油公司就中油三接福報工程爭議款以及近年來國營失業貪圖案件查處成效進行專案報告以下就做中油公司的業務部分提出報告我想首先在福報工程款爭議的說明我要先說明工程的背景"},{"start":2118.141,"end":2135.63,"text":"中原公司是配合供應台電大潭電廠所需要新增發電基礎所需要的天然氣的需求以及北部地區民生工業用以及燃氣發電廠新增的天然氣需求所以編列了第三座液化天然氣接收站的一個投資計畫"},{"start":2137.717,"end":2153.107,"text":"這個計畫在原編的時候是規劃了五項主體工程包括建港及圍堤造地工程、棧橋工程、氣化工程、除潮工程以及路管及配棄站工程投資總額是661億元這個計畫在108年的9月 奉行政院來核定"},{"start":2160.251,"end":2186.902,"text":"那麼行政院後來在110年宣布了外推方案所以在這個觀塘工業港的部分必須往外海移455公尺因此在這個外擴防波堤的部分它必須要重新設計包括了防波堤結構的基礎以及整體配置都需要做調整那麼因此新增加了三項的主體工程"},{"start":2187.702,"end":2197.431,"text":"包括了外貼方案的外擴防波堤的一個新建工程以及棧橋延伸段的工程還有製程設備及管線工程投資總額調整為965億"},{"start":2202.574,"end":2217.102,"text":"那麼這個計畫也在111年的3月21號奉行這院核定至於媒體報導所謂第三接收站的二期這個是指的外推方案的外擴防波堤的興建工程"},{"start":2218.322,"end":2242.545,"text":"那麼這個三接投資計畫原規劃的防波堤工程是由建港及維提造地的標案來執行但是為了因應外推方案所以原環平核准範圍內的碼頭碼頭後線以及部分防波堤還沒有調整的部分就繼續施作但是因為外推方案所需要重新調整的部分"},{"start":2243.386,"end":2260.326,"text":"就要等待外推方案的還差通過以後才能夠施作也就是我們今天所講的這個主題我報告主席因為我想中油公司對於這個事情我需要多一點時間來做個說明可不可以允許我長一點好"},{"start":2261.175,"end":2279.647,"text":"那麼原建港集會提造工程它有相關的一些工程事項最重要的就是防波體長度是3351公尺它的水深是在-15米水深以內它的沉箱基礎的泡放是60萬方的一個基礎飼料"},{"start":2280.928,"end":2308.74,"text":"那麼這個案子的工程它相對水比較深那麼它在-20公尺到-29公尺而且它離岸有1.2公里所需要的基礎拋石料是160萬方所以在這樣一個工程它的施工的水益比較深施工難度也比較高所以這兩個案子施工的內容 量體 難度發包的時間都有所不同"},{"start":2309.6,"end":2331.629,"text":"所以工程要去做一個成本上的比較事實上很難去類比這個案子的預算的編列是委託台灣世西顧問公司來辦理台灣世西公司經過細部設計以後就所有的工料以及機具他會去做盤點"},{"start":2334.289,"end":2353.644,"text":"之後他就做出了一個建議的預算同時他也把一些大宗物料去詢問廠商他們對大宗物料的一些看法最後他提出來了一個本案的預算是238.4億億元交給中油公司來辦理公開越南"},{"start":2360.017,"end":2370.247,"text":"那麼在公開閱覽的期間 廠商有幾點的肆意同時台灣世新也向國內的三個廠商去詢價那麼詢價的結果 東批公司是報256.5億元紅華公司是239.6億元黃昌團隊是報價269億元"},{"start":2384.421,"end":2402.457,"text":"因此在這幾個數據綜合判斷以後提出了最後的預算總額是253.1億元中央公司根據這樣台灣市區的一個建議我們當然也去做一些內部的一個核算認為它的所建議的253億是合理的"},{"start":2408.018,"end":2421.093,"text":"那麼對於近日的媒體報導中央公司也立即調解了相關的一個資料以及採購文件那麼本案工程預算編列的過程中並沒有媒體報導百億暴增至253億元變動四次的一個情形"},{"start":2424.946,"end":2448.65,"text":"那麼接下來在公司內部的請購跟採購程序來講的話那公司當邊也經過一個董事會的同意之後呢 核定了這個253億接下來的再採購的程序那也進行開始發包那麼經過了兩次的一個開標呢最後是在第二次開標以後呢那麼由 決定是由黃昌這個團隊來得標那麼在這個"},{"start":2454.075,"end":2460.863,"text":"這個投標的過程中只有兩家來投標那麼這兩家廠商它分別投的報價是東批公司是252.7億那麼黃昌團隊是253億"},{"start":2470.345,"end":2498.782,"text":"接下來對於公安的部分以及工程品質的部分我想就書面資料請各位委員來參考最後我做個結議本案是委託國內知名的專業廠商台灣司機來辦理設計預算編列以及招標文件的製作經過它的內部的核算以及再次向國內廠商詢價終成評估以後本案招標預算是合理的"},{"start":2499.744,"end":2506.235,"text":"那麼接下來中油公司依照政府採購法公告前辦理公開閱覽同時也經過董事會通過預算編的過程中並沒有媒體所報導的一個"},{"start":2513.244,"end":2541.092,"text":"從百億暴增到253億變動四次的一個情形那麼至於媒體報導錄影檔中涉及中油公司必失的這個部分中油公司已經啟動行政調查作為那麼並將全力配合司法機關的釐清案情對於有惡意損害中油公司聲譽的行為也將採取適當的法律途徑來維護中油公司的聲譽以及權益那麼以上的報告敬請各位委員指正謝謝"},{"start":2544.061,"end":2547.674,"text":"好 謝謝方董事長那我們接下來請公共工程委員會的陳副主委"},{"start":2555.2,"end":2576.493,"text":"主席 各位委員大家好今天從某國委員會邀請本會就今天的議題提出專案的報告我底下請就中油三接相關工程的審議招標跟禮約的查核的部分提出報告 請各位委員不認執照"},{"start":2577.734,"end":2593.768,"text":"那麼我們現在在講的有關中油三接的這個計畫大概分為兩期的投資目前媒體報告的大概是針對第一期的投資那這個第一期的投資是行政院在104年9月4號核定的最後的總經費是965.62億元"},{"start":2598.132,"end":2622.082,"text":"那第二期的投資計畫是為了要提升這個卸收儲存及運輸的能力那目前還在國發會這個審查當中那麼有關國營事業投資新興公共工程及房屋建築的計畫那麼依照這個政府公共工程計畫以經費審議作業要點的規定"},{"start":2626.263,"end":2649.631,"text":"這個無需送工程會來審核是由這個主管的部會自行來審理那麼有關報宅的這個所謂外推防波堤的工程的這個招標那麼依照我們看到的這個文件是在111年4月29號辦理第一次的公開招標"},{"start":2651.272,"end":2669.111,"text":"第一次因為未達三家流標後來中油在111年6月29號辦理第二次招標最後是由黃昌營造跟幻亞工程共同得標"},{"start":2672.126,"end":2688.821,"text":"我們查了一下有關第一期三接的工程大概總共有八件其中有六件已經申報竣工本案相關的黃坡堤外推黃坡堤的工程目前還在施工當中"},{"start":2690.912,"end":2705.296,"text":"其餘的一件工程有達到99.99%有關本件的外推防波堤的部分目前的進度是75.52%進度是超前16.52%經濟部跟本會總共曾經查核三次"},{"start":2713.098,"end":2736.138,"text":"那麼查核的分數大概維持在80到81分之間大概屬於比較正常的一個那因為上禮拜在交通委員會那麼也討論過這個案子我們會在兩個月內啟動啟動這個集合那如果有任何的結論我們再向貴委員提出報告謝謝 以上"},{"start":2738.331,"end":2756.712,"text":"好 謝謝陳副主委那接下來我們就開始進行詢答那本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時候得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並且不再延長那上午10點30分截止發言登記那我們首先先請第一位的黃國昌委員"},{"start":2770.483,"end":2789.976,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請法務部部長經濟部的市長以及中友的董事長委員長三位早 時間的關係先請教一下中友董事長中友在108年到109年的時候負債比有多高"},{"start":2795.418,"end":2796.841,"text":"當時大概在50%到60%之間當時是60%嗎現在負債比有多高現在負債比到達93%"},{"start":2804.622,"end":2829.504,"text":"到達93%嘛一個93%的財務結構我必須要說從財務的觀點這家國營事業令人捏把冷汗負債比93%是什麼概念我相信念財務工程的人大家心裡都有數但問題是我們從中油實際上面的表現看不出來中油的財務狀況很糟糕"},{"start":2832.049,"end":2845.803,"text":"從實際上面的狀況我們看出來的是中油很有錢中油超級有錢花錢的方式完全不像一個負債比從幾年前60%"},{"start":2847.952,"end":2877.107,"text":"到現在最近已經高達93%的公司我為什麼這樣講 我們從頭開始看2022年中油貪污的弊案你們在今天的書面報告裡面是輕描淡寫的寫了徐漢兩個字相關的案子只有徐漢嗎只有徐漢嗎我在PVP上面全部都列出來了不是只有列油事業部的執行長徐漢還包括你們的工程師"},{"start":2879.235,"end":2907.417,"text":"儲運科前董事煉製事業部全部都淪陷導致檢察官在起訴書上面寫什麼中油貪腐結構根深蒂固中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固這八個字不是我說的是檢察官在起訴書裡面說的檢察官認為中油的貪腐結構根深蒂固董事長認不認同"},{"start":2909.937,"end":2936.274,"text":"這個部分我想我不能完全認同不能完全認同這個絕對不是結構性的問題你要去告北檢妨礙名譽嗎這應該是個案這是個案嘛所以檢察官這樣寫你覺得你沒有辦法認同嗎我沒辦法認同好沒有關係我們繼續往下看這次的這個案子羅志強委員他追得很辛苦那我看羅委員出來追啊"},{"start":2937.472,"end":2950.911,"text":"我也要看一下到底發生什麼事中有液化天然氣而去接收站我們就一般就稱為三接本來規劃五項主體工程660億這個沒有錯吧這個沒錯"},{"start":2954.551,"end":2981.158,"text":"那後來呢因為藻礁的爭議所以你們推出了外三階的方案嘛往外再延伸嘛新增三項工程嘛新增這三項工程包括棧橋延伸包括外鍋防波堤包括製程設備及管線工程這個也沒錯嘛這個也沒錯然後時程增加2.5年嘛好那我現在就看了我就看不懂"},{"start":2982.673,"end":3003.79,"text":"2021年5月我們行政院宣布中游三接外推方案預算增加150億只有150億嗎只有150億嗎剛剛提到計畫預算是增加大約是300對 這個就是我今天要質詢的第一個point我們的行政院在幹嘛搞大內宣啊"},{"start":3004.833,"end":3016.287,"text":"欺騙國人啦當初行政院是行政院院會耶王美花自己出來宣布耶增加只有150億耶怎麼後來會變成增加300多億這個是發生什麼事"},{"start":3021.088,"end":3045.535,"text":"委員我可以做個說明嗎是請說這個部分講的150億是講說這個直接工程的部分150億但是在編列預算的時候還要考慮其他的因素譬如說在工程試作期間有沒有誤調的問題我這樣講好了啦納稅人關心的就是這樣搞要多花多少錢嘛還有在你們這邊解釋來解釋去啊"},{"start":3049.927,"end":3072.827,"text":"150億是直接工程然後其他的是其他的那行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義行政院院會宣布這150億有何意義這150億啊你仔細看啊這還不是只有行政院院會宣布啊來你看這個表三接迴避替代修正方案與外推方案之比較這個表你有看到嗎"},{"start":3074.124,"end":3080.837,"text":"呃有有這個表是你們中油做的沒錯吧是是來你看下面預算增加多少錢150億啊這也是你們中油寫的啊"},{"start":3086.769,"end":3103.631,"text":"是沒錯 但是你看這些項目指的都是直接工程我剛剛講的就是說直接工程是150億沒關係啦 今天第一件事以後請你們中油跟行政院包括經濟部對納稅人說明的時候講清楚啦300多億就300多億"},{"start":3107.316,"end":3129.97,"text":"寫個150億 等到我去發預算書的時候發現根本不是150億在東解釋西解釋的 納稅人關心的是什麼關心你多花多少錢嘛 我講的對不對對 以後我們改好 多編300多億是什麼時候編的 預算最後通過是111年的3月份"},{"start":3131.162,"end":3154.701,"text":"預算是什麼時候編的計畫本身965是111年的對我問你預算什麼時候編的你指的是工程本身的發包預算不是啦要經過立法院審核通過的預算我們是立法院嘛你們編預算嘛我們審嘛審了通過了以後你們下去執行嘛正常的民主國家不是這樣嗎這預算什麼時候編的"},{"start":3161.016,"end":3187.473,"text":"965億這個部分是修正計畫的項目是預算什麼時候編的就是111年的3月份行政院核定是預算什麼時候編的我們應該是在110年會去做這個計畫修正然後報經濟部對不起你還是沒有回答我的問題預算什麼時候編的您是指原始預算嗎不是修正過要增加300多億的預算什麼時候編到預算書裡面送到立法院來審核"},{"start":3190.404,"end":3211.295,"text":"不知道應該是會在111年的預算書上會去揭露好來看你們實際上預算暴增305億這個我剛講過了所以發生這件事情我就回去看預算書啊我每一年的預算書都對啊來我對出來了我直接給董事長看"},{"start":3212.694,"end":3242.048,"text":"你們是111年喔立法院審核通過的預算書喔都還是原來的金額660億的金額 你有沒有看到有看到這個是立法院審核通過的你們什麼時候預算書開始多300多億啊到965億是112年才出來的112年的預算書才編的啊你看到沒有我看到了那我現在就搞不懂啊"},{"start":3243.495,"end":3270.972,"text":"300多億你們是到112年的預算書才呈現那請問現在有關於真正大家在爭議的那個外推的工程是什麼時候決標的111年的7月那我現在問題就來了你的預算還沒有送到立法院來立法院還沒有審通過立法院審不審對你們來講沒有差"},{"start":3273.991,"end":3284.921,"text":"我反正就決標下去啦連預算都沒有就可以辦決標我看不懂啊所以現在立法院在審國營事業的預算是形同劇文嗎是形同劇文嗎報告委員"},{"start":3291.929,"end":3315.275,"text":"就我的認知的話 就是在修正計畫的部分對 修正計畫是你們行政院的事嘛好 那我現在的問題來了在一個民主法治國家當中是行政院編預算就可以花錢還是立法院要通過預算才能夠花錢這是我的問題如果行政院編預算就可以花錢不用立法院審核通過"},{"start":3316.806,"end":3322.736,"text":"那立法院廢掉算啦我們省什麼預算啦所有的立委在這邊省心酸的"},{"start":3325.509,"end":3348.389,"text":"立法院有同意這個計畫嗎新興計畫本身是已經同意了是誰同意的我說原始的計畫是行政院對嘛 原始計畫不是660億嗎那個是立法院也同意的是 沒錯所以立法院同意你用660億我一點問題都沒有但是後續的修正計畫的話目前在行政院的部分是何準我們先行動之啊"},{"start":3349.301,"end":3377.51,"text":"對嘛 這個就是我現在的問題嘛在我們現在的預算制度裡面反正行政院最大行政院編了立法院還沒有審核我就直接先幹了嘛我有說錯嗎那我的問題來啦我們的立法院審國營事業的計畫是要做什麼因為整個我看到的啊叫做從立法院的觀點來看我跟董事長報告我看到什麼先設建後化吧"},{"start":3378.723,"end":3391.133,"text":"先設建後化吧我行政院預算膨脹啦本來告訴社會大眾150億後來變成365億後來誇張到365億都還沒有送到立法院來審核我連決標都做好啦我國的預算制度到底出了什麼問題啊讓你們這樣胡搞瞎搞"},{"start":3408.956,"end":3421.023,"text":"我們立法院到底在省什麼預算啊我錢要花就花啦你們這些立法委員橡皮圖章而已啊我行政部門就是要先設建再畫吧150億到365億更離譜的是365億連預算立法院都還沒有省我已經絕標啦預算到2023年的時候才編"},{"start":3439.864,"end":3463.737,"text":"但是我2022年絕標啦請問要立法院審這樣的預算有何意義立法院可以不同意嗎到時候你們說 報告委員不好意思喔你們雖然還沒有通過預算啦我們中友早就絕標要做這件事啦可以這樣幹喔"},{"start":3465.868,"end":3492.358,"text":"可以這樣幹嗎還是你們覺得按照我國現行的預算制度中油這樣幹剛剛好而已 是這樣嗎我想報告委員中油公司的所謂預算跟執行都依照現有的制度來去執行對啊 但我現在就挑戰嘛你們根本沒有按照現有的制度啊我事情都還沒有說完啊我看你們啊 暴增305億我想要看裡面的項目"},{"start":3493.41,"end":3521.056,"text":"到底是什麼項目要花多少錢305億那個在旁邊搖耳朵的你有話要講直接上來回答你先等一下報徵305億中油的預算書長這個樣子來我請教一下董事長如果你今天當立法委員你要怎麼審這個預算只有數字我有一個計畫的目的我有一個計畫的內容我有一個投資的總額"},{"start":3522.904,"end":3550.525,"text":"全部的字數加起來不超過100個字然後我看到的數字是多了365億這個是把立法委員當什麼你要不然就是把我們當神仙我們是神仙啊終有什麼 什麼都不用提供100個字之內概述計畫內容多365億我們是神仙要知道裡面的細部"},{"start":3551.533,"end":3568.008,"text":"到底合理不合理那要不然呢這些立委全部上班的時候都在混都在打瞌睡都在閉著眼睛審預算是誰教你們預算書寫成這個樣子的啊這樣是要立法院怎麼審"},{"start":3570.822,"end":3595.382,"text":"我想現在我們在這個文書報表所呈現都是一些標準的格式沒有關係啊 是誰訂的標準立法院訂的標準嗎還是行政院訂的標準沒有關係啊 過往的陋習我為什麼今天挑這個題目直接切進來是不是有弊案讓檢調去調查我光從立法院該監督的錢怎麼給你們的"},{"start":3599.194,"end":3618.067,"text":"計劃經費怎麼暴增的預算怎麼審核的預算還沒有過以前你們都已經絕標啦在民主國家當中這種預算制度如果按照董事長所講這是正常的話我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我國的預算制度"},{"start":3620.046,"end":3644.258,"text":"我再說一次如果按照你們所說的這樣子做是正常的我們要徹底全盤的重新檢討我們的預算制度但我看到的是什麼我看到的是叫做先設建後劃把先設建後劃把立法院預算都還沒有通過你們絕標都已經辦了甚至你們絕標的金額那三項工程加起來多少錢董事長知道多少錢嗎"},{"start":3645.563,"end":3674.104,"text":"三項工程嘛本來宣布一百五十億後來邊預算邊到增加到三百零五億最後那三項工程花多少錢三百三十億左右來 我算出來了三百四十三億你們也是很厲害先設限再劃吧就算了過的增加的預算是三百零五億三項工程來我報給你聽哈前面"},{"start":3675.529,"end":3703.689,"text":"在111年 預算還沒有通過喔我再強調 預算還沒有通過喔111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程東坯營造 經務大工程就先絕標了 20億就是這一次 那個外接方案沒有得標的廠商嘛 就他們嘛我看了也很狐疑 原來就是這一億兩家廠商在那邊吵 到底該你的還該我的"},{"start":3704.71,"end":3706.271,"text":"111年3月 棧橋延伸興建工程20億111年7月29號 黃昌營造253億"},{"start":3716.82,"end":3740.347,"text":"後來呢 外國防波興建工程做契約變更 再追加2840萬給他第三個 製程設計與管線統包工程這是第三項工程嘛第三項工程69億加起來343億作為一個立委 現在我就看不懂了我們給你們的預算我們同意增加305億結果你們決標可以決標到343億"},{"start":3747.289,"end":3749.578,"text":"這個是怎麼回事可以說明一下嗎"},{"start":3750.718,"end":3779.33,"text":"就是剛剛我跟委員所報告的直接工程150億但是這個計畫本身編列預算還有其他的像是對啊 就到965億啊對對對那所以相差多少 305億嘛這裡面就是說我們會去籌備一些物調的一個所以你的意思是什麼自己從別的項目挪用過來嗎對對對 還有工程準備我的老天啊就其他的項目我再講一次我痛恨你們這種"},{"start":3782.421,"end":3803.795,"text":"用含糊其詞的方式在欺騙國人本來給你們660億追加到965億 多了305億立法院還沒有審通過你們就絕標了 膽大包天第二個 更扯的是什麼算出來的何止305億 343億"},{"start":3809.813,"end":3829.078,"text":"中油為什麼負債比現在高達93% 中油很有錢啊預算還沒有過 直接先絕標 絕標下去本來多三項工程305億從我們前面詢答的過程當中 我講得非常清楚了150億到305億 最後花343億 343億"},{"start":3838.413,"end":3862.691,"text":"中友怎麼能不虧 出手大方啊 大方的不得了啊稍微 今天既然排這個專案報告因為中友他前面所編的那305億 細項到底是什麼大家根本都不知道 這個是第一件事情第二件事情 編預算編305億他們自己知道的絕標喔 就已經343億了"},{"start":3865.034,"end":3879.551,"text":"中油到底錢怎麼花的到底錢怎麼花的從哪些項目又多挪了三十幾億來搞這個三接是不是可以請召委等一下才是會後看這個禮拜禮拜五以前"},{"start":3880.672,"end":3898.047,"text":"是不是把所有的細項資料都交到司法法治委員會來這樣我們排這個專案報告才有意義嘛那要不然中央的董事長在上面問他的問題他也沒有辦法回答其他的細的項目我們也沒有辦法看得到是不是等一下請麻煩召委裁示一下"},{"start":3899.813,"end":3922.694,"text":"我想請中郵待會依照黃委員的意見然後將你們採購的細項的一些說明書在星期五下班之前提供給我們司法法治委員剛剛我的問題很具體嘛你聽得懂嗎沒有含糊涼"},{"start":3924.215,"end":3943.931,"text":"絕對沒有含糊其詩的地方了嘛兩個重點 第一個細項第二個呢 超過150億的部分這些預算是從計畫裡面哪個項目是 從哪個地方挪過來的那要不然我覺得立法院在審預算根本是在審耍寶的還是在審辛酸的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員好 那謝謝董事長那就請你們星期五之前要交下班之前交好 那接下來我們請"},{"start":3954.404,"end":3955.585,"text":"羅志強委員發言有請法務部調查局經濟部交通部然後廉政署以及中油董事長麻煩請相關單位的長官列席 謝謝"},{"start":3985.538,"end":3986.899,"text":"先請中央董事長委員長我先問你三個非常簡單的問題來 請你告訴我第一個 什麼時候告《金週刊》目前呢 我們公司內部在啟動我再問你一次 什麼時候告《金週刊》目前沒有 我覺得現在目前沒有啊 你的報告怎麼寫的你說這些所有都不實報導不是嗎"},{"start":4011.618,"end":4029.372,"text":"我們講的意思就是說現在重點我們要啟動內部的行政調查你看你迴避 心虛嘛我直接講結論啦你報告不用寫了啦還想那麼正正有詞不實你就要告 報告是不是這樣寫"},{"start":4030.981,"end":4046.652,"text":"第一個就是說我問你嘛 你有沒有看報告不會報告出來你都沒看吧我講的意思就是說行政調查同時我們要配合檢調單位的一個調查結果董事長你光第一個問題就答不出來連報告自己怎麼寫都不知道"},{"start":4047.762,"end":4075.629,"text":"裡面就說只要是不實報道你們會提出告訴是 只要是不實對啊那請問你現在進週刊所以你沒有要告嘛那進週刊叫報道就屬實啦我告訴你 我直接告訴你你要告的還不只是進週刊報道你的三接二期的弊案今天進週刊又加碼爆料你的三接一期都有問題兩單一起告啦 好不好"},{"start":4077.506,"end":4091.387,"text":"不 答不出來 任5秒問第二個問題 來錄音檔內的業者是不是東批公司是不是 告訴我目前不確定不確定啦來 部長 是不是東批公司"},{"start":4093.591,"end":4110.385,"text":"這部分已經剪掉臉我知道啦 謝謝部長休息休息 我知道你說個案不討論來 調查局局長是不是東批公司這個我就不方便說明我知道你一定答案一模一樣啦我告訴你們來 董事長上來我再問你是不是東批公司"},{"start":4111.104,"end":4128.227,"text":"目前不確定 不確定啊 非常好啊在我們資料上不確定我來去當 那個部長來去當調查局局長好了啦我幫你們來推估是不是東坯公司 來 我想請教一下最後齁 尋價結果齁 來 董事長黃昌說多少錢269億洪華說多少錢230餘億239億東坯說多少錢"},{"start":4143.33,"end":4161.595,"text":"256億來來來週刊的報導來告訴你是不是東批公司啊週刊報導說外界說這個工程94億就能做業者錄音帶業者說他提122億的價格你們中油高層豪氣說中油什麼都沒有欠啦錢最多啦"},{"start":4162.881,"end":4186.096,"text":"不缺錢啦然後等於是叫他繼續往上加他加了多少 150億還繼續被中油罵然後呢 加到220億再度被中油高層大罵中油高層罵我你這做頭家不會做頭路你都聽不懂你做什麼頭路囂張啊 這位中油高層非常囂張喔好 來"},{"start":4187.914,"end":4211.087,"text":"這個營造商抱怨啦 90幾億可以做第一次抱120億 他說太低 150億又被罵叫他抱高一點最後他報價 報到多少 周刊報導 報多少請問 報多少報給你們周郵多少 告訴我 周刊報導 有沒有看不會沒看吧我看了 我看了民意這麼重要 有看 來周刊報導 他報多少給你們"},{"start":4212.014,"end":4219.057,"text":"報告委員 從這個周刊的報導你告訴我 你給我數字你給我數字啊你不要迴避問題喔我問你這麼簡單的數字 最後報給你多少錢我講是周刊的報導周刊報導這個廠商報給你多少錢"},{"start":4235.356,"end":4241.68,"text":"告訴我答對了來請問你剛剛講東坯公司報多少錢我去當部長我去當局長一模一樣啦是不是東坯公司我再問你來請問來請教部長這麼清楚啊東坯公司要不要約談一下"},{"start":4262.559,"end":4281.921,"text":"個案不評論這部分我想那個辦案單位有他的偵查的一個規劃來請局長依常理啦不要跟著部長好不好來局長對你喜許甚深依常理我幫你推估到這種程度了直指東批公司"},{"start":4283.297,"end":4298.686,"text":"總要去約談一下吧了解一下吧謝謝委員的推估我們會參照委員的意見好謝謝你謝謝局長部長看一下局長起碼有誠意多了來我第三個問題要問你來第三個問題問你我想請教一下我們的董事長請問這中油高層這位總經理說中油不缺錢報告一點的總經理是不是你"},{"start":4310.948,"end":4333.675,"text":"報告委員 從這個周刊的報導 所謂總經理上面並沒有講中游非常好 你是指世襲嗎我不知道不是台灣世襲就是中游啊這個部分我不知道來來來 請教你 為什麼直接問你啊我給你呈現一個機會啦三接二期是哪一年招標的哪一年決標的都是在111年對啊 2022年6月29日招標8月2號決標嘛 對不對來 請問"},{"start":4339.878,"end":4349.843,"text":"董事長你那個時候在中油的職位是什麼我是111年4月12號升任總經理所以在4月12號之前我是副總經理"},{"start":4351.445,"end":4373.143,"text":"你說111年之前 升任總經理4月12號升任總經理就是你這個總經理啊 不是嗎這個事情應該是發生在請購預算核定階段前總經理啊 謝謝你 非常好非常好 總理長我真的佩服你啊原來是前總經理啊來來來 沒關係來 那個部長"},{"start":4380.305,"end":4406.696,"text":"人家都把總經理都講出來而且他直接跟你講是前總經理雖然招標的時候絕標的時候他是總經理可是他說前面的階段他不是總經理那應該前總經理的事情前總經理要不要約談一下來 個案尊重檢方這個我想有辦案單位來做一個好 非常謝謝那我再提示一下提示一下我們局長我給你第二個名字對你多好對 給你第二個人"},{"start":4407.815,"end":4433.564,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員我不直接直接問你回答因為你回答可能也要跟部長一樣偵查不公開我們都會參考 謝謝謝謝你參考謝謝 謝謝委員兩個單位給你了來我再請教你第三個我想請問第三個單位要跟你講我看你們報告一直在講什麼台灣四溪對不對來 總市長請是 沒錯台灣四溪"},{"start":4435.188,"end":4464.671,"text":"那我跟局長直接說啊所有的那些報價的過程當中台灣世襲證據一定在台灣世襲嘛台灣世襲我們現在董事長是誰鄭雲鵬啊鄭雲鵬7月才接我先幫他講啦這事跟他沒關係啦可是他是董事長就我所知崔少哲也有去跟台灣世襲那邊所以請鄭雲鵬也來好好瞭解一下"},{"start":4465.906,"end":4489.424,"text":"我今天給你三個名字我最後回頭說 我要跟大家講我不認為週刊報導是空穴來風你看週刊報導多好256億寫的清淨數今天如果說你給三家公司尋價結果沒有256億這個數字那我覺得週刊胡說八道你給的三家公司有一家是256億就這麼清楚"},{"start":4493.971,"end":4521.471,"text":"那今天說真的那麼清楚啦檢方趕快要辦一辦那我再要請教我們的董事長剛剛我們的黃國昌委員說中油實在是檢察官說的中油公司貪腐結構根深蒂固你反對嘛你不認同嘛對不對不認同來來來好第一點來我想請教一下部長"},{"start":4523.166,"end":4523.806,"text":"請教部長我們偵辦從110年到114年國營事業貪賭案移送最多的公司 國營事業是哪一家"},{"start":4544.27,"end":4573.195,"text":"這部分我沒有資料那局長了解了 局長給的資料吧哪一家移送最多中油比較多中油比較多 謝謝局長謝謝 謝謝董事長你中油當然了不起啊 第一名啊那麼多國營事業公司你被移送第一名啊你驕傲啊黃國昌剛還是引用檢方的說法你不認同啊來 沒關係 你不認同來 我再問你一個數字"},{"start":4574.963,"end":4602.643,"text":"今天我要把一句句話念給你聽離譜到什麼程度到現在還不敢跟我講你到底要告不告中油什麼都不欠 錢最多都不欠錢周刊報導啊中油欠不欠錢中油來講目前負債比很高你也知道啊 你也知道啊過去五年啊 賠了三千億"},{"start":4604.777,"end":4618.731,"text":"錢最多 錢賠最多啦為什麼會賠那麼多報告如果屬實三兆你都賠不完隨便一個工程一家150億還去罵廠商報價報太低了來給你反駁啊"},{"start":4629.775,"end":4657.191,"text":"那麼過去三年中油公司負債比從60%提高到93%最最主要的原因在這過去三年裡面中油公司承擔了在國內物價的一個好率謝謝你的回答啦我告訴你最最主要原因承擔物價最最重要原因就是福報工程價格週刊報導的承擔物價這是國家政策我不怪你"},{"start":4659.141,"end":4687.355,"text":"可是今天嚴重到這種程度結果到現在為止你還是不敢講你告不告週刊我告訴你就心虛週刊報的就是真的我相信週刊我真是相信金週刊啊對啊你也相信啊所以你不敢告啊他還不只告你不只講中三階二期啊他今天爆料三階一期也有問題啊中友還在說沒有貪腐沒有貪腐結構沒有根深蒂固"},{"start":4688.598,"end":4700.261,"text":"你拿什麼說服力告訴大家賠三千億怎麼賠就你偉大的中游啊但今天我對總經理有一句話講得最好我本來今天就要好好來質疑你"},{"start":4702.021,"end":4719.769,"text":"我們要請你要自行調查就你跟我講 你的答案我接受你說抱歉 絕標招標你是總經理但是所有事情完成是在絕標招標之前那不關你的事 那是前總經理所以爆料裡面的總經理不是你這個我聽起來有道理 我覺得有道理"},{"start":4721.547,"end":4732.883,"text":"可是今天中油根深蒂固的腐爛你董事長與有責焉啊那為什麼你直接告訴董事長既然是前總經理的事情不要包庇啊該辦就辦鐵碗斷然的去辦"},{"start":4738.373,"end":4760.739,"text":"可以嗎我們還是要就這個事情他是不是有這樣的一個情形要把它弄清楚謝謝 弄清楚你剛剛不是講弄清楚就是沒這個事我們現在重啟調查因為現在有新市政了包括這個錄音檔所以你現在也不確定有沒有事很好啊你有自我懷疑精神我謝謝你今天中油自己都開始懷疑自己好事情"},{"start":4763.833,"end":4789.786,"text":"請法務部聯政署調查局好好幫助你來驗證你的自我懷疑正不正確 謝謝好 謝謝那我們接下來請吳宗憲委員發言謝謝主席我們麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部麻煩請工程會 中油還有經濟部"},{"start":4799.854,"end":4815.066,"text":"先請教工程會我看一下上週的預告修正的政府採購法那我看到的是要刪除三加比較限制的條款那目的是為了提升效率還有鬆綁基層採購的壓力是不是這樣"},{"start":4816.887,"end":4836.018,"text":"報告委員 那麼原則上是往這個方向但是我們現在看到的就是因為民進黨長期執政之下其實有一個東西已經被台灣大多數人所公認就是民進黨執政之下其實圖利瓜分這個國家的財產變成是一個日常"},{"start":4837.179,"end":4858.286,"text":"那連今天經濟部的報告都說要會全程依法公開 程序會嚴謹但是國營採購的弊案還是層出不窮就像今天那個中油的董事長說從對黃國昌的回應還有對於羅志強的回應你一直講一句話說你不認同他們的指控但是我今天要跟你講不要說剛剛那兩位立委的說法"},{"start":4859.506,"end":4888.027,"text":"調查局跟廉政署的報告都已經講得很清楚了他有提到說近五年來移送以中油最多台電次之所以剛剛那兩位委員的質疑是錯的嗎你說你不認同那你不認同就不認同但是今天調查局還有廉政署的報告已經認證了貴公司就是弊案最多遭移送對象最多的單位還是你要質疑他們兩位還是要告那兩個單位"},{"start":4889.209,"end":4902.803,"text":"不是 報告委員我剛剛所說的就是說這個貪腐它不是結構性都是個案那中油公司的話案件是比較多不是結構性的是個案那這個就不是不是弊案嗎"},{"start":4904.452,"end":4930.393,"text":"當然是個案啊那個案多了因為貴公司最多嘛我國的國營企業這麼多公部門這麼多但是貴公司目前是調查局的報告說得很清楚移送對象是中油最多對那這個你承認嗎這個我承認因為這是統計的結果既然有調查局的認證那我們也就不用再多爭論了所以我覺得今天我不是質疑單一個案我覺得"},{"start":4931.354,"end":4951.292,"text":"我們今天看到國營事業有很多的問題我先提出幾個問題第一個 預算支出可以無限的暴漲第二個 工地安全也被漠視第三個 肥貓酬庸它是無限的肥油然後工程採購無限的黑箱所以我今天看到這四個無限"},{"start":4952.54,"end":4975.662,"text":"一個是支出無限暴漲 公立安全無限的漠視肥貓酬庸可以無限的肥油工程採購可以無限的黑箱我今天看到狀況是這樣也不用跟我們說沒有因為這幾年確實國營事業讓大家質疑很多點包括今天我又看到一個新的現在不是三接有問題一二接現在也有事情要爆出來"},{"start":4976.323,"end":5005.512,"text":"那如果照這樣講原來綠能政策然後它所引起的必須要大量的燒天然氣後面原來有這些弊案一階 二階 三階如果都有弊案的話那到底我國的能源轉型是轉辛酸的嗎是轉到最後光電 綠電 風電一堆弊案現在連因為要搞綠電所引起的天然氣接收站也弊案連連那我就很懷疑說我們的政府他到底帶給我們人民是什麼"},{"start":5006.328,"end":5019.322,"text":"他當初告訴我說為了要搞綠能要留下最好的台灣給下一代結果現在看到是弊案連連山野光電板 海野光電板水庫野光電板 到處光電板然後"},{"start":5020.373,"end":5043.781,"text":"然後不知道在做什麼然後一堆弊案在裡面這怎麼對得起長期支持政府的這些選民所以我剛剛所說的我們今天看到很曾經穩定國家民生而且會賺錢的這些公司現在併入高峰的四大通病就我剛剛講的第一個預算的失控人民的納稅錢被當提款機"},{"start":5045.051,"end":5066.434,"text":"搞了一大堆追加預算一些有的沒有的搞出來第二個公安的漠視然後最近也有幾個案子有一些人命待會我會講第三個從酬庸就是一直塞人進去包括吳英寧等等的這些案子然後再來還有一個圖利舞弊從工程到招考有一大堆的問題包括之前的一些"},{"start":5067.435,"end":5086.245,"text":"招考的時候的電子舞弊的弊案所以我就不懂說國營事業怎麼會淪落到今天高層搞酬庸 低層搞電子舞弊來招生這不知道在搞什麼好 那我請問一下經濟部門中油預算的失控我想請問兩位中油的中油的這個"},{"start":5091.254,"end":5098.222,"text":"三階的工程款它是來自於與政府的增值那我請問一下這是不是政府這是人民的納稅錢或人民的資產請問是不是"},{"start":5100.057,"end":5128.301,"text":"當然從廣泛來講最終工程完工以後當然就是公司的資產同時也是國家的資產他就是全民的資產沒錯嘛 對不對那我跟你講我看到了就是2022年中油前執行長那個叫什麼 徐翰他被查出收費1687萬其實這還蠻離譜被封為最貪的公務員當時還起訴了蠻多人請問一下貴公司有沒有做什麼樣的改善"},{"start":5130.164,"end":5149.177,"text":"有 在當時對我去做了一個檢討我們要求所有的主管同仁都應該以此為戒那個不叫做改善我跟你講當時你們還發了一個新聞稿說法律是道德最低標準然後國營企業的什麼操守形象都不容打折"},{"start":5150.017,"end":5166.151,"text":"要求大家用更高調的標準來處理這個承辦的業務但是這沒有用啊搞到最後還是口號至上啊變成是口號的巨人但是實際上的侏儒啊我看到的狀況是這樣嘛那公安的問題終於你們公安的問題也是我剛剛提到了"},{"start":5167.572,"end":5195.76,"text":"2019年12月台北港的城鄉吊掛三死四傷然後呢今年7月那個桃園三街還有一個作業員溺斃啦其實這個都是嚴重的公安事情嘛那我覺得用人的問題非專業卡在重要的位置以及這些高層的貪腐其實跟公安絕對有一敵兩面的事情啦不是沒有關係所以我希望你們兩個月內交一個公安缺失還有改善的報告給市長法治委員會好不好"},{"start":5196.441,"end":5201.457,"text":"還要附上一些相關的資料這個請你務必做到那我想請問一下經濟部經濟部"},{"start":5204.887,"end":5227.289,"text":"我想除了中油之外台肥也是很多弊案包括前董事長康信宏任內的南港C2開發案讓公司損失幾億然後還有康信宏跟總經理黃耀新他們的福報差旅費還有台肥到大陸地區投資失敗的這些例子我想台肥也是一堆問題"},{"start":5228.951,"end":5241.105,"text":"台研也是啊綠能的成取益的問題對不對然後還有之前吳英寧的人事案的議題所以我覺得奇怪大家把國民世界當做自己的金庫嗎怎麼會搞成今天這樣那"},{"start":5244.754,"end":5266.708,"text":"國營事業現在變酬庸的一個位置然後內控都失能也都掏空才會有這麼多弊案所以我想麻煩你們一個月內能夠提一個國營事業的董事 總經理人事還有問責績效制度的改善方式不要每一次事件爆發都換個人而已好不好我們麻煩法務部長還有調查局局長"},{"start":5271.854,"end":5291.312,"text":"來 部長 我想請問一下之前國營事業 中油 中鋼 台電電子招考舞弊的問題你們後來有集合去查辦嗎這邊有查辦 這個是廉政署藍調組有來查辦那也麻煩廉政署這部分你們有沒有查辦"},{"start":5298.323,"end":5306.278,"text":"報告委員 這個部分都已經語重其數好 我跟你們講因為我剛剛所說的我們現在國民世界變什麼高層搞酬庸"},{"start":5307.352,"end":5335.74,"text":"對不對 綠油油跟選戰出力者高層搞酬庸 低層電子舞弊那難怪經濟上面也出問題公安也出問題嘛績效也出問題 弊案一大堆這都可以理解你從高層到低層都出了問題所以這個要麻煩你們能夠仔細的把它查清楚好不好那如果目前還有一些相關的相關的這種團體還在搞的話也要請你們積極的去做部長這部分有沒有辦法督促一下"},{"start":5337.232,"end":5357.518,"text":"這部分這是一個預防的作為因為已經有電子有一些的舞弊那些也都依法偵辦的偵辦的好像應該是有兩波後來這部分有督請國營事業這部分在招考新員工的時候必須要落實絕對要有防弊的一個作為"},{"start":5358.058,"end":5375.034,"text":"那這邊我如果說委員有需要的話我們請您證書來提供你們還是要資料給我因為我跟部長報告一下就我跟部長已經往來好幾次了那我只希望一個點我們發現問題麻煩你們要提出解決之道而且那解決之道要實際能做的而不是說"},{"start":5375.635,"end":5396.817,"text":"只是虛隱故事我們不會看不懂你是不是虛隱故事我跟你講而且不要說我每次跟你討論制度你就說這個是個案問題然後我跟你問個案然後你又說偵查不公開不然就說這個個案不予評論搞到最後都不用講了問制度也不用講問個案也不用講所以不能這樣子麻煩你們對於電子舞弊這個事情"},{"start":5397.458,"end":5419.559,"text":"能夠把你們後續的有沒有一些宣導或偵查的作為改善能夠怎麼加強偵查這塊能夠給我們一份報告好不好最後我想我自己個人我總共辦了11年的數貪我覺得我還是要提一個其實國營事業或政府機關會出事大概就是不拖國營機關採購會出事就那三樣"},{"start":5422.482,"end":5433.373,"text":"投標前設建在畫把投標中 執行中灌水之後沒有人負責大概就是主要這三個"},{"start":5435.095,"end":5461.57,"text":"價格常常都是先設建再化因為很多國營世界的採購不是靠市場競爭是靠關係所以先有想花的錢再用規格跟房價去把金額護航起來我想各位辦過數攤的現場的有連政署有之前的警察官有部長你們都知道我在講什麼那第二個招標看起來乾淨但是後面在灌水對不對你後面在變更設計追加預算展演供期驗收鬆綁然後呢"},{"start":5462.31,"end":5476.642,"text":"如果說前面搞不定後面就去壓那些分包的那些廠商壓那些安全的維護所以到最後出事情發生公安的都是工人但是品質不佳受害的是全民所以我在這邊提出一個要求就是"},{"start":5477.663,"end":5501.376,"text":"如果將來有重大門檻變更的話如果差價譬如說大於15%那是不是要啟動二次審查這個部分麻煩經濟部也能夠思考一下要不要再啟動二次審查如果價額你後面追加或灌水有時候我們還聽到三四成以上那是不是只要超過15%我們為了看守人民的荷包麻煩做二次的審查這跟政黨無關 這為國家好"},{"start":5503.377,"end":5528.662,"text":"那第三個就是從我剛講的招考的舞弊到酬庸的那個這肥貓文化我想這幾個點是我覺得我自己在辦以前辦這種案子之後我心裡的感覺這幾個點一定要把它解決好所以那個也請廉政署針對這個國營事業的接避受理調查保護救濟資訊公開SOP等等的你在一個月內能夠給我一個"},{"start":5529.822,"end":5554.878,"text":"國營事業接避保護執行方案的書面然後而且要發佈一個就是公營事業跟這些它的一個通用範本讓大家有跡可循否則我跟你講這些國營事業這些寄生蟲將來就是跟蟑螂一樣一直冒出來而且永遠打不完但是我覺得我們國人要用多少條命多少億元下去補這個洞我覺得這都不應該好不好"},{"start":5555.618,"end":5567.043,"text":"那再麻煩各位要能夠積極的處理這件事情好 謝謝各位好 謝謝吳委員那接下來我們請陳培余委員詢答好 謝謝主席那有請中遊董事長"},{"start":5586.854,"end":5616.003,"text":"好 請好好 董事長早我想我們花一些時間來釐清相關媒體的訊息也來釐清一下剛剛兩位委員三位委員的槌尋我認為有弊案該查就查該說就說那中郵該對全民交代就對全民交代但是我認為有一些基本的訊息我們一起來釐清那我手上呢左手邊這個投影片是馬政府時代所規劃的這個方案我想你應該非常清楚 對嗎你在中郵待非常久了"},{"start":5616.463,"end":5636.893,"text":"之前也擔任過天然氣事業執行部的執行長對嗎是的好所以左手邊這個是馬總統時代所規劃的232公頃的大潭藻礁後來因為環團的抗議有人民的聲音所以到了蔡政府時代就一個是外推對嗎是的好 外推多長"},{"start":5640.194,"end":5663.299,"text":"455公尺也就是原來在沿岸外推455公尺第一個再來原本是232公頃可是因為當時有藻礁的議題所以我們把面積縮小了從232縮減到23公頃對嗎是的好那我我認為如果我們看這一次媒體相關爆料出來這個案子困境應該是因為外推所衍生出來的相關成本增加對嗎"},{"start":5664.259,"end":5692.301,"text":"對 沒有錯好 那我們辦公室的整理是這樣您看一下原本的方案是只有五個方案要做包含棧橋工程 企劃工程儲槽 路管跟配器站可是因為做了外推這件事情我剛剛說是為了配合環團跟人民對於藻礁保育的疑慮所以蔡政府時代做了外推的規劃也因為這個外推現在這個案子是因為觀塘接收站外推方案之外擴防波堤新建工程這253億 對嗎"},{"start":5694.002,"end":5713.644,"text":"是的好目前的資訊是這樣我們先幫國人釐清到底這253億的錢到底是放在哪邊是使用好原本你們的規劃是這樣如果我說的都是對的話我們來看一下如果按照公共工程招標的相關規定我們必須要做招標文件公開閱覽公告對嗎就是我右手邊這一張"},{"start":5714.685,"end":5725.862,"text":"我們現在看到的數字呢當時你們在111年的1月12上網公告這個外推就是我剛剛說外推400多公尺這個方案你們當時的預算金額是238.4億"},{"start":5729.008,"end":5757.188,"text":"公開閱覽的時候是公開閱覽的時候是這樣說我可以問一下但是我左手邊我們來看一下我左手邊相關的媒體新聞說的說了非常多數字94億啦122、150、220、256到253但是你們的說法是說公開閱覽的時候寫的是238.4後來到底是發生了什麼事情為了到了4月29號招標第一次公告變253關於這個部分可不可以請董事長說一下"},{"start":5757.768,"end":5778.215,"text":"為什麼公開閱覽是238.4但是第一次招標公告的時候到了253是 謝謝委員讓我說明我們在公開閱覽的時候是238.4億對就確定了那麼公開閱覽當然就是目的就是希望民眾或者是廠商對於我們公開閱覽的這些所有資料有沒有寶貴的意見"},{"start":5779.215,"end":5796.95,"text":"那麼同時呢 這個台灣世西呢他也去對於三個廠商呢 去詢價那麼把這些資訊收集了以後呢最終做一個研判那麼這三家廠商呢都有回報他們的報價資料那這個範圍大概在240到270億之間你說不同的廠商報價回來的數字所以240到270"},{"start":5804.996,"end":5827.255,"text":"對 好 接下來請說對於這個公開閱覽所提供的意見譬如說在什麼數量上他們認為說你的數量上有沒有不足的地方或者是多的地方或是相關的契約條文有沒有需要做調整那麼把這些公開的這些資訊收集了以後再做一個最後的中整那麼台灣世信給我們提供的資料是253億"},{"start":5829.056,"end":5844.367,"text":"好 所以我們就根據這個253我們就做了4月29號招標第一次公告 對嗎經過公司的一個內部程序好 那到了6月29號招標也是253這中間還發生了什麼樣的事情這中間沒有發生任何事情好 那為什麼有二次招標公告"},{"start":5844.867,"end":5864.011,"text":"因為第一次招標的時候不足三家是所以流標好 不足三家流標所以到第二次有順利有三家嗎還是兩家但是我們7月29還是做了絕標253億是好 那這個流程看起來都是公開資料所可以查得到的但是我個人比較好奇"},{"start":5864.671,"end":5892.847,"text":"為什麼在週刊裡面出現這麼多數字是94到253但是我們過往在相關採購法的規定公開閱覽公告的這個要進行正式上網公告之前我們通常會有多久的作業時間要去跟相關的專家學者討論跟相關的公司或者是收集更多的意見通常你們做出這個公開閱覽公告之前的前置時間以這個案例為例你們做了多久的討論跟收集意見"},{"start":5894.689,"end":5910.283,"text":"我請黃國聰做說明好不好好 是跟委員報告那公開越南法定的時間是工作天所以前後大概十天加上內部的一個評估一個月內應該就可以把相關的招標文件訂稿以上報告"},{"start":5910.543,"end":5925.992,"text":"好 一個月內相關招標文件可以定稿可是在這之前呢你們為了這個三接的這個防波體興建你們花了多少時間研究它到底相關工程的難度可能跟所需的預算跟可能需要到什麼樣的工程技術你們花了多久時間研議這個案子可以給我一個大概的數字嗎我想委員想知道就是台灣47它做內部的設計跟評估大概花了多少時間對有沒有這個資訊"},{"start":5939.921,"end":5967.042,"text":"是不是 我目前沒有這個資訊好 沒關係 你們幫我們再幫我們提供但是我來看 我認為一般人我們都不是工程專業我們也不是相關專家學者就算現在我們要立刻讀了這些資料我們不見得可以立刻消化但是我認為人民會擔心一件事情也會想要問一件事情到底這個數字有沒有合理就工程的專業跟所需要的成本回到我剛剛前面那張投影片就是外退那個圖 謝謝"},{"start":5968.483,"end":5997.217,"text":"來往前推再前一張外推的這個工程第一個關鍵是一不可以破壞礁體不可以浚挖原外海填區21公頃不填防波堤變短海域更開放然後預算增加然後供氣然後還要離岸這些我看起來都有相關的難度對嗎是的我可不可以請董事長分享一下國外有沒有相關的案例或是在台灣有沒有相關的案例讓人民可以想像這個成本對照起來是合理的"},{"start":5998.101,"end":6004.031,"text":"我想在國外一定有類似的案例對 例如但是這個我好 那台灣呢"},{"start":6005.066,"end":6030.242,"text":"那麼台灣的話就是在台灣的幾個天然氣接收站當然都是建港包括了就是我們永安所謂的一街一街然後三街那麼以及未來的四街以及五街還有現在在高雄的七街它都是屬於在岸邊的去興建一個港但是這個"},{"start":6031.616,"end":6048.889,"text":"三接它比較不同的它是一個離岸的離岸的一個港剛剛提到就是說距離要經由棧橋來去連接最遠的距離到達1.2公里所以它本身三接來講在港本身的建設它的困難度是相當的高"},{"start":6049.329,"end":6078.105,"text":"等一下剛剛董事長您說了一個關鍵你說高雄的七街它是在岸邊嘛對不對就是原本就比較像是馬總統規劃那個岸邊可是如果我們去查高雄洲際七街防波堤每公尺的興建成本跟三街幾乎是接近的很高其實也是要500萬到600萬之間所以如果按照您的推論三街難度更高而且外推的內容更寬然後必須要考慮生態保育的工程越多那現在這個數字看起來應該是合理的數字囉"},{"start":6079.466,"end":6102.202,"text":"我認為是很合理的數字以三接跟七接來比的話三接除了它離岸比較遠以外那麼因為它的水域也比較深好 第一個水域深 還有呢第二個在它的一個施工在岸上的一個要做沉箱的區域它周邊的土地是沒辦法提供所以它必須要從台北港這邊"},{"start":6103.223,"end":6127.971,"text":"很遠的地方送到三階的所在地這個航程所花的這個成本也是相當的一個高好 所以就現在為止我認為我們一般人會在意的問題就是工程難度高不高所以我們需要花了這麼多錢還有相關公告的時間在這之前我們到底聽過多少專家學者的意見也不會只有業界的意見跟相關工程的評估你們都認為是合理的那我最後就要說我認為"},{"start":6128.971,"end":6155.672,"text":"如果我們認為是合理合法的我們應該就自己來把話說清楚當然我們非常支持剛剛所有委員的建議陣風減調 該查就查 該辦就辦有新的事證我們就來討論我覺得要讓國人對中油有信心對所有的國家公共工程有信心最後我也要拜託中油我想在配合調查的過程當中有相關事證或者是相關緊要跟你們要任何資料我覺得該公開就公開"},{"start":6156.252,"end":6183.864,"text":"我們給國人一個交代我們自己好好把話說清楚就如同我們今天看的不管是公開閱覽的公告資料或者是相關預算甚至是最前面一張我提的我們從本來是近海岸的這個三接變成後來外推這件事情我們所必須額外衍生的成本跟相關工程的困難我認為我們都應該要一併讓國人知道當然弊案的部分我們絕對支持法務部相關後續的動作好不好"},{"start":6184.204,"end":6193.67,"text":"那就拜託中友 我們就自己把事情說清楚就如同我們今天花了這些時間把這些基本的資料搞清楚也非常重要 好嗎好 謝謝委員謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 我們下一位請翁曉琳委員進行詢問"},{"start":6216.411,"end":6227.685,"text":"好 謝謝主席那麼首先先邀請法務部正部長還有陳局長及廉政署的林副署長林副署長"},{"start":6229.854,"end":6251.78,"text":"吳委員長部長好首先我想要問一個也是涉及到比較算是制度層面上面的問題這次週刊爆料有關於中油三接二期工程可能涉及舞弊的事情裡面特別有提到檢舉人他其實從三年前他就開始檢舉了"},{"start":6252.74,"end":6268.408,"text":"但是三番兩次的檢舉都沒有效果最後他不得已把檢舉的事情提供給週刊然後由週刊寫出來然後才引起大家的關注所以本席想請教就是說你們對於目前"},{"start":6269.148,"end":6292.925,"text":"像是人民的檢舉案 告發案等等檢調單位不僅是地檢署還有調查局 廉政署你們有沒有一套受理的SOP還是說是檢舉案進來了基本上置之不理等到上面上級長官交辦之後才開始把檢舉函找出來看你們有沒有一套SOP"},{"start":6295.492,"end":6319.847,"text":"檢舉進來的話那個受理的機關他就會收文收文他們認為有涉及到犯罪事實的話就會做一個立案所以有涉及到犯罪事實才會立案基本上立案之後才開始偵辦才會有字號就是案件字號但是誰來認定說這個案子到底有沒有涉及犯罪事實要不要受理"},{"start":6321.848,"end":6347.684,"text":"譬如說你提檢署你收了這個檢舉函之後他沒有一個登載記錄嗎這個一定收文一定會有收文會有所以如果說是以這次的這個週刊上面講說這個檢舉人他基本上已經至少兩次了吧都有去檢舉那你們都沒有任何的收文的記錄嗎事實上這個案件其實在調查一個年度基本我了解是在"},{"start":6348.191,"end":6366.983,"text":"周刊報的以前就有立案了都有在調查了所以沒有像周恩講說我們置之不理沒有那回事所以也就是說基本上是檢調已經當時收到警局人的來函然後已經有開始算是有立案嗎立案有在調查嗎這個是我請調查局跟聯證署來談聯證署來回覆一下"},{"start":6371.579,"end":6392.419,"text":"报告委员调查局先回答好不好是这个案子我们调查局只收过一次检举就是我在书面报告里面提到就在今年的8月那我们收到检举以后我们就马上就立案好所以你们调查局是8月的时候才收到这个检举第一次的检举第一次然后两三年前那时候没有收到没有好那另外林政署呢"},{"start":6394.966,"end":6421.745,"text":"跟委員報告在113年我們有接到一份檢舉但是當時的檢舉的內容不是很具體那比較像是單位就是國營事業裡面可能在預算的編列上有問題所以當時是交由經濟部的政風處轉由總有的政風處來進行調查那今天經濟部看是次長還是可以回覆"},{"start":6424.915,"end":6441.04,"text":"好 請次長說明一下你們有收到檢舉函嗎我們這邊有收到就是從那個我們廉政署交下來的一個查查的一個資料所以你是在去年就收到了去年那在此之前呢在此之前是沒有"},{"start":6443.201,"end":6462.533,"text":"我必須說當然這個事情現在已經檢調已經在進行偵辦了那麼我希望就是說可以把這個檢舉的這個事情相關的流程要弄清楚這檢舉人基本上大概已經檢舉了不止兩次如果說14年8月可能還有去年他說三年前他就有檢舉了"},{"start":6463.453,"end":6490.512,"text":"那么所以到底这些检举进了检调单位廉政署之后是不是石沉大海到底谁有权决定说有没有涉及犯罪事实有没有开始要成立立案那本席认为说这个是一件很重要的事情那么事实上法务部自己内部你们有定定检查机关办案期限及防止羁押实施要点防止羁延实施要点那在这个实施要点里面其实没有看到就是说有关于像是受理检举函"},{"start":6491.252,"end":6506.526,"text":"就如果有結局涵提出來之後他的誰要是不是要受理誰來決定這個部分是不是可以請部長你們之後可以去延期重新檢討這份實施要點有沒有需要再做檢討"},{"start":6507.567,"end":6535.69,"text":"那個我們再來做一個再做一個檢視那我想我們沒有再刺案了剛才委員有很關心這個問題那我想廉政署剛才有提到是在去年就有收到這個而且那個檢舉收到底是跟哪個機關哪個單位檢舉我們不清楚我們現在僅能夠就我們所屬的機關我們接獲的檢舉或者是像上次那個辦那個那個是委員會是一個會上次"},{"start":6536.37,"end":6562.669,"text":"記者會那一次有把這個資料轉給台北地檢署來依法來偵辦那這部分我想我們這邊的控管都是相當的嚴謹的我希望你們的管控是嚴謹的因為事實上如果從剛剛的這個各個不同機關的說明裡面就可以知道不是說沒有受到檢舉函只是你們認為可能沒有那麼嚴重不涉及到犯罪所以根本沒啟動那在中間有沒有可能"},{"start":6563.169,"end":6575.607,"text":"有人是故意把這個案子沒收起來了好不曉得不過就是沒關係這個部分我想本席這邊已經了解清楚了那麼確實是就是如同週刊上面所報告所講的新聞檢舉人的確他之前就已經有檢舉了"},{"start":6580.313,"end":6602.461,"text":"那是不是寄給不同的機關都是同樣的檢舉函而有些機關有受理有些機關沒有受理那麼總之就這個案子來講的話基本上還是要盡速的去查辦那接下來我要想問的就是說事實上有關於今天在防務部的報告裡面也有寫到有關於機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":6603.541,"end":6617.511,"text":"其實這個政策基本上是蠻不錯的主要是為了要確保國家重大的公共建設的品質以及廉潔所以廉政署有積極推動機關採購廉政平台的機制到目前為止根據你們自己的"},{"start":6619.011,"end":6644.044,"text":"裡面的報告內容已經設立了90案的廉政平台然後其中有64個案子還在持續運作有25個案已經結案了有一個案因為政策調整暫緩但我想請問一下就是為什麼我們台灣的重大工程這麼多件但是事實上只有90案有成立機關採購廉政平台"},{"start":6645.52,"end":6671.356,"text":"标准是什么这个是有一个在法务部有在2016年就有颁布的一个机关采购廉政平台的一个实施计划但是因为本来就是政府采购是采最低标那最低标会有一些的现象就是工程品质没办法做一个确保所以那就采最有利标所以在那个情况之下说又有责有法务部去去定定这个机关采购廉政平台"},{"start":6671.476,"end":6687.087,"text":"是的部長我知道我剛說了我基本上認為說這樣子的一個概念這樣的一個機制是很好的但是全台我們現在每年政府有這麼多的重大公共工程公共工程的採購案為什麼只有90個案子是有成立連任平台這邊可能要請經濟部次長可能也請您回覆經濟部旗下那麼多國營事業這麼多的案子請問您知道你們現在有多少案子是有成立"},{"start":6698.715,"end":6716.774,"text":"這個廉政採購平台的嗎採購廉政平台我們現在就針對綠能還有一些水利署的一些案件我們有運用這個廉政的這個採購的平台來協助那我接下來想請那個方董事就是請中油董事長還有台電的"},{"start":6720.8,"end":6739.81,"text":"台電董事長請問兩位董事長你們目前你們自己公司裡面的這些採購案有成立採購廉政平台嗎我印象中有幾個案子有成立譬如說週季二期的石化除草那你們這次的中油三接的這個案子有嗎"},{"start":6740.831,"end":6753.639,"text":"三接這個工程沒有對 所以你們是為什麼你們是什麼樣的標準有些要成立有些又沒有成立像這麼金額這麼龐大的案子竟然沒有成立機關採購廉政平台是對 這個基本上也是一個很明顯的一個疏失"},{"start":6762.663,"end":6777.224,"text":"可能就是在当时就是几个重大的工程去选择的问题那么理论上应该是每一个重大工程案都要成立如果说他提早成立的话也许就不会发生像今天这样的错误请问像台电董事长你们有成立吗"},{"start":6780.974,"end":6799.969,"text":"我們有成立我們有成立就包括現在在招標中的合一合二室內乾除的案子包括離岸二期的案子幾個重大的案子比較金額大的我們都有成立廉政平台我想請中郵跟台電這裡就是要提供給我的資料還包含那個"},{"start":6801.37,"end":6814.89,"text":"經濟部就是你們目前這是有多少的重大公共工程案子然後有多少件是成立了這個產工廉政平台這相關的數量要給我我想至少100億以上的案子都算是大案子吧"},{"start":6815.931,"end":6838.126,"text":"甚至可能51百億以上都是大案子但是我沒有想到竟然實際上成立的這麼少那麼以我們這次看到你們這麼嚴重的弊案竟然沒有之前就沒有成立這樣的案子讓我真是匪夷所思接下來我還要再請教中郵的董事長的一個問題就是這次我們可以看到"},{"start":6839.347,"end":6858.665,"text":"主要是台湾世锡公司它基本上针对三接二期的计划提了相关的预算的评估在第一次是提的是238亿那么第二次又增加到253亿我想请教中油"},{"start":6859.386,"end":6873.842,"text":"里面有没有针对世锡公司所提出的预算报告有一个在控管或是在查核的一个机制我们怎么知道世锡它这样的报价对不对你们有经过什么样的审查机制吗"},{"start":6874.403,"end":6891.227,"text":"當然在公司內部會有一個複合的機制我們會去查他所提供的一些大宗物料大宗物料 譬如說塊石 鋼筋混泥土這些用量比較大的這些基礎材料會去做一個查核 查死的動作"},{"start":6891.926,"end":6911.722,"text":"因為如果說是以這次的週刊上面的這些報導的話那本席也認為說其實世錫公司在當時針對這個二階外推的工程的預算評估或許也有問題是不是它裡面它也浮爆"},{"start":6912.643,"end":6935.634,"text":"就是因為他一開始他服報了他就是應該說他他應該是他就是把這個估價估得高了然後你們後來又依照那個比較高的價格去公告所以才會產生後續這種服報工程費的這個問題所以對於世西這個顧問公司裡面他當時他做的每一個計畫你們的負荷是"},{"start":6939.304,"end":6962.75,"text":"如实的吗就是你们有真正的去好好的去看里面的问题吗是 当然我们有好好的看这第一点当然我想接下来检调单位会针对这个案子继续去做详查那么尤其是我们看到这次连政署他所做的这个报告法务部的报告也说所有现在国营事业里面的弊案就以中游最多"},{"start":6963.61,"end":6984.246,"text":"所以你們真的要深切檢討怎麼可能紀律風氣會荒唐到這樣的一個程度實在是不可思議所以董事長應該要好好的要去整頓中油內部好不好好OK那今天就談到這邊那接下來我要我剛剛所請你們要提供的報告也請你們在禮拜五之前提供給我好謝謝"},{"start":7000.322,"end":7009.584,"text":"我們待會在王洪威委員質詢完後我們就稍微休息一個五分鐘好那接下來請王洪威委員詢答好謝謝主席我請一下我們中油董事長"},{"start":7030.567,"end":7031.974,"text":"經濟部經濟部今天次長經濟部次長"},{"start":7037.799,"end":7059.741,"text":"好 董事長 市長我們今天主要專案報告是在於我們中油的三接的工程當然因為之前是先提出來二期工程它的整個的金額一直腐爛的報價今天又有一個新的爆料就是在一期工程的部分"},{"start":7060.982,"end":7085.778,"text":"也有就是跟不合就是一般來講就是先做這個價格標先讓廠商來報價我想請問一下董事長一期的部分得標的公司是什麼公司黃昌泛亞的一個共同團隊來投標他得標一期的部分對第一期第一期那第二期呢"},{"start":7086.38,"end":7100.062,"text":"第二期也是皇昌范雅這個團隊的都是兩家同樣的公司那在這個皇昌的部分皇昌部分是它的得標金額是多少它一期的得標金額"},{"start":7102.905,"end":7128.284,"text":"我們先講第二 外推這個部分它得標是235億253億 這應該講二期253億 對不起二期Total 253億那麼第一期得標金額為220億第一期220億嗎最佳這個我說明一下就是建港微體造地工程它的合約決標金額是222億"},{"start":7131.909,"end":7148.032,"text":"那後來因為外推方案的關係所以把原來的這個工程裡面沒有重疊的部分就把它切出去了只有在原先不變的部分留在原合約裡面不是 你這樣有點複雜我現在先 我們先把它切開來看"},{"start":7149.033,"end":7161.105,"text":"二期二期就是我們今天專案報告的二期的工程總價最後確定的是253億嘛253億對不對好那一期呢我講的是一期166億這樣不就不會搞混了"},{"start":7168.854,"end":7183.46,"text":"一期166億但這個還是有點奇怪因為根據黃昌海市他自己的公告一期是172億有沒有修正對 一期是166但是工程驗收結束以後做最終的結算是172億追加了"},{"start":7199.469,"end":7213.986,"text":"對不起 講錯了 講反了契約是172那最後的結算是166是結算166億然後到了第二期變成253億我想起我一期二期的工程有什麼不一樣"},{"start":7215.663,"end":7234.693,"text":"二期的工程它的防波堤的長度比較長這第一點 第二點呢長多少呢大概接近一千米接近一千米有長到 有比較 我說比較長到一千米嗎700公尺 700公尺700公尺嘛長度多了700公尺700公尺變一千米對不起"},{"start":7237.248,"end":7253.307,"text":"那個水深的部分也不一樣一期的部分水深是在-15米以內我看到的資料如果按照沉箱的部分沉箱的部分二期是144座沉箱一期是138座沉箱"},{"start":7257.472,"end":7280.433,"text":"那當然這個兩期的工程時間距離有點長那有可能是受到比如成本或者物料什麼等等之類的無論如何一期跟二期的工程我其實看不出來兩個工程它的難度跟它的規模有差多少但是金額大幅的增加"},{"start":7281.394,"end":7307.81,"text":"那這個部分而且在二期的部分黃昌的比例由原來的47%增加到73%所以他得標的金額將近200億186.83億那這個當然現在檢調要去調查這裡面所謂的相關的爆料那另外我想請教董事長你們已經完成你們的行政調查了嗎"},{"start":7308.957,"end":7318.704,"text":"第一次的行政調查在去年年底就完成了現在就根據新市政我們已經重啟了調查"},{"start":7319.983,"end":7341.685,"text":"什麼時候開始重啟上週在記者會之後我們就開始了上週開始重啟所以還在進行中進行中那你們在去年年底的行政調查的內容是跟現在的爆料的內容是一致的嗎也就是這邊有服邊然後工程款暴增的狀況"},{"start":7342.691,"end":7365.146,"text":"基本上主題就是這個項目所以上次行政調查已經結案所以董事長還有部長如果這一次檢調的調查因為檢調現在在調查中如果出現如果確實裡面有所弊端的話那麼"},{"start":7366.167,"end":7371.831,"text":"你們行政調查要不要負責任因為你們行政調查結案了所以才會有這個陸陸續續繼續來爆料是不是"},{"start":7375.061,"end":7401.244,"text":"就是剛剛跟委員報告就是說現在有新施政出來了所以我們調查的對象當時有這個錄音嗎當時沒有當時沒有這個錄音所以你們現在就是在行政調查裡面主要針對這個錄音也就是有說什麼中油什麼都不缺啦就是而且錢最多啦就不缺錢所以這個部分你們現在是第二次第二次行政調查的重點"},{"start":7403.345,"end":7422.698,"text":"預計行政調查什麼時候會完成我是希望我們政風署在一個月內把它完成這個行政調查一個月內 如果是說以11月去上個星期的話所以應該在12月初就可以完成整個的行政調查是不是在12月中好了"},{"start":7423.843,"end":7429.788,"text":"我一講 你就一個月你要不要又把它拖到12月中好吧 就是12月中那麼你們就應該完成你們的行政調查給外界一個交代我要講的是為什麼我特別提到黃昌黃昌這家公司在我如果看這個政府採購網"},{"start":7445.419,"end":7456.043,"text":"它在2023年2024年大概政府得標案件大概是100億到200億元之間100億到200億元之間2025大爆發超過400億"},{"start":7462.506,"end":7486.839,"text":"超過400億那當然他其實這個黃昌他的這個得標跟政府得標台北市卻是捷運工程因為他之前那個有包捷運工程然後有一些國道工程也有但是這445億裡面貢獻最大的就是中油就是中油而且他過去跟中油沒有什麼往來"},{"start":7488.018,"end":7507.87,"text":"它過去跟中油沒有什麼往來它大部分都是地方的交通工程為主或者都交通工程為主所以過去它的時機其實它也跟中油的工程是沒有這麼相關更不要說這些提防什麼外推工程"},{"start":7508.71,"end":7531.778,"text":"但是一期給他 二期給他一期得標的比例47%到了二期的比例超過70%確實讓大家覺得說他整個在中油的工程裡面是大爆發的所以我想請教一下董事長這家黃昌你之前認識嗎在所謂一期得標以前不認識"},{"start":7537.318,"end":7562.18,"text":"一起得標之前不認識不認識那得標之後就認識了當然因為有契約執行關係對於工程的執行當然就會每個月都要開會就會接觸到就會接觸所以你們個人是很信任黃昌在三接重大的工程一期 二期你們很信任他的品質"},{"start":7564.062,"end":7576.047,"text":"我不能講說很信任就是有工程的合約嘛那麼雙方依照合約上面所規定的權利義務來去共同執行讓這個工程做得更好 更完善"},{"start":7577.042,"end":7598.135,"text":"因為我要特別提到就是說因為黃昌過去他沒有跟你們中有相關的往來也沒有這些相關的時機比如說你今天如果是一些交通工程交給他我覺得我更認為是比較合理因為他過去他做了很多的不管捷運或者是國道的一些交通的工程"},{"start":7598.835,"end":7627.819,"text":"那這個工程金額這麼龐大然後現在又出現了就出現了這些相關的這些質疑那黃昌這家公司以前被人家戲稱為叫什麼黃家公司為什麼黃家那他以前是主要是跟陳水扁前總統關係非常密切因為大家都知道陳水扁總統他入獄的時候正好黃昌的老闆是跟他住同一個牢房"},{"start":7628.481,"end":7629.294,"text":"住同一個牢房"},{"start":7629.764,"end":7658.178,"text":"所以過去黃昌他叫黃昌但是很多人都叫他黃家黃家營造但是在陳水扁總統他卸任之後其實他跟企業界跟政府就沒有那麼很明確的往來但是現在又突然起了這樣子的一個我們中油的爭議中油累積坤水現在是多少"},{"start":7659.558,"end":7678.153,"text":"累計虧損接近800億累計虧損才800億嗎目前財務報表累計虧損大概800億但是因為我們之前有一些保留所以把以前累計的虧損就把它打掉了目前帳面上大概是累計虧損800億也有800億到現在為止"},{"start":7681.596,"end":7710.254,"text":"所以就说我们今天过去终于讲到中游的弊案其实真的非常多来我们看一下2022年2022年那个时候其实它本来是一案就像牵粽子一样它办一个案子又一签再签就签了好几个当时2022年中游曾经陷入多起的弊案之中"},{"start":7711.394,"end":7737.606,"text":"而且後來真的都有被起訴有被起訴有收回當時的中油董事長李順清他有講到因為那時候一而再再而三的發生這些相關的貪瀆弊案他說他很痛心這些貪污弊案讓他痛心要貪污賺大錢不要來中油"},{"start":7738.186,"end":7746.033,"text":"我覺得這一句話要再次的送給我們現在的中油我覺得同樣董事長也要有這樣的魄力跟這樣的認知如果你想要賺錢不要來中油因為中油是一個獨家的國營事業那確實它每一起標案都非常龐大"},{"start":7759.924,"end":7781.017,"text":"那這些弊案其實如果我不曉得檢調要花多少時間才能夠給我們一個答案那您剛剛講說你的行政調查在12月中可以提出來那我也會希望董事長能夠本於真的要查好弊案如果真的有貪瀆就把它查出來不要互短可不可以"},{"start":7785.499,"end":7814.439,"text":"可以一定是這樣做對 不要護短因為如果真的有這個事情的話一定要把他抓出來因為如果說這樣的弊案的陰影揮之不去然後其實馬上因為尤其這些都有一些牽涉到有沒有政商關係他不是單純的單純的貪圖弊案他還牽涉到有沒有其他政治的這個關係的話其實對中友絕對是傷害好不好是好 謝謝"},{"start":7817.305,"end":7819.41,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在先休息五分鐘"},{"start":8233.697,"end":8237.282,"text":"好謝謝我們現在繼續開會那接下來請王逸川委員詢答先請審發會委員審發會委員審發會委員不在他改成書面詢答好那接下來請王逸川委員"},{"start":8267.072,"end":8279.182,"text":"謝謝主席我們現在請工程會請工程會副主委還有中油公司中油董事長還有經濟部 謝謝經濟部次長好 謝謝為什麼不請法務部長跟調查局長因為個案裡面也不能講上來也是浪費時間好不好 好"},{"start":8294.964,"end":8319.479,"text":"我看經濟部針對今天的報告你們報告裡頭說中油採購案在你們看來都符合程序對不對目前你的了解是這樣就是說中油給你的報告你看完你覺得是符合程序的就這麼簡單沒有任何你們覺得很怪的事情"},{"start":8319.995,"end":8331.703,"text":"我們就從行政程序上面我們去了解一下這個案子有沒有跟採購法的程序有沒有相違接下來我們請工程會站在工程會的角度這個案子不管這個"},{"start":8342.746,"end":8361.445,"text":"幾期的工程啊這個媒體多所報導那裡面也寫說站在什麼專家的角度看起來好像也不太對什麼先叫廠商報價然後再公告再進行這一個評選"},{"start":8365.202,"end":8393.519,"text":"我們一個工程在進行的時候要多少錢才能做完的這件事情在工程界裡頭不管設計的公司設計建造或PCM在事前把可能潛在的廠商進行相關的巡駕這是合理的嗎這是一般正常的作業方法好 那巡駕完的這一些廠商被巡駕的廠商可不可以來投標"},{"start":8394.797,"end":8423.609,"text":"如果他這個相關的招標的資訊已經公開的沒有迴避的問題好那現在站在工程會的角度這個案子你們看起來有沒有怪怪的因為如果照媒體的報導好像問題比較出在是巡駕跟顧問公司提出預算的那媒體不管是他自己想像的或者是有人講的或者是怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":8425.051,"end":8450.619,"text":"如果你們看完這些報導那你覺得在工程上這有沒有怪怪的目前我們就程序上來看我們看不出來有什麼特別的問題所以我們會去進行工程的集合集合形式上看起來我們有先去瞭解就形式上看起來不曉得問題是出在哪裡是沒有發現有異常"},{"start":8452.475,"end":8455.163,"text":"這案子裡面有啟動相關的了解多久了"},{"start":8456.056,"end":8483.12,"text":"因為媒體報導當時的那個檢舉並沒有到工程會來說我們是這一次媒體報導以後那麼我們才啟動內部的一個先了解那因為我們的了解只是從相關的政府公告裡面去得知啦那我們要進一步去看個案的文件的話必須啟動集合的這個制度那啟動集合的制度才有辦法去看個案現在還沒啟動"},{"start":8484.391,"end":8512.519,"text":"現在準備要啟動但是先從政府採購的相關的在你們手上的文件因為那都公開資訊就去研判他到底有沒有跟一般的採購案不太一樣至於這一個個案就是要啟動相關的集合才能夠查清楚嗎現在的這個程序到這裡好 接下來請忠友"},{"start":8514.492,"end":8538.773,"text":"委員長這個案子從比較少的經費到比較多的經費你都參與嗎我不瞭解委員的意思 從比較少的經費是值的就是說他後來推出去嘛本來經費比較少 然後往外推嘛這個過程你也在中游嗎這個過程你都有參與嗎有參與那台灣世襲在這個案子的角色是什麼"},{"start":8539.738,"end":8556.899,"text":"他是我們委託的專業顧問公司做什麼 他從事細部設計港的這個細部設計還有預算的籌編以及招標文件的撰寫那監照也是他們 監照也委託他監照也是他們 那專管理是誰"},{"start":8558.055,"end":8585.467,"text":"專案管理也是委託他委託台灣世西設計 建造 專案管理都是台灣世西台灣世西在這個案子裡頭歷年歷次提出來的金額相關的討論你也都參與嗎這個部分沒有比較重大的才會有參與我是說從現在到幾百億最新的這個數字你有參與嗎沒有 我收到的話就是他們提報的一個238億"},{"start":8587.284,"end":8607.239,"text":"我知道 我是說這個數字你有看到嗎238要公告之前 就公告招標之前嘛這個我知道好 那你們 你說這個世襲送來的這些資訊啊你們內部會進行相關的你們的名詞 就是進行相關的這個查對啦諸如此類的事情你們用什麼專業去評估世襲送來的是對的"},{"start":8608.892,"end":8621.319,"text":"我們當然就是做複合對 複合你們怎麼複合那我們就是對於比較大宗的這個材料的部分那我們自己公司也有以往你們是處理材料的單價嗎單價數量"},{"start":8623.872,"end":8642.9,"text":"數量是屬於台灣四溪他要去好所以在你們這個階段就台灣四溪送進來有單價有數量有各式各樣的工法包括直接工程間接工程假設工程全部都有嘛對不對那在你們這一端處理的就是個別比較大宗的材料的單價是的其他呢"},{"start":8645.58,"end":8668.588,"text":"其他的沒有 就是就單價的部分其他的 你們也沒這個專業可以處理這個你們如果有專業就不用找世襲 對不對所以說在國內的工程界是這樣嘛因為你要做 你不是10名都會走嘛所以你們就拿了一筆錢請各個工程顧問公司那全台灣也不是只有世襲嘛世襲要來做這個案子也是 你們也是招標的嗎對 也是經過招標好 所以送進來之後對中友來說你們就只處理到那一個"},{"start":8674.611,"end":8688.397,"text":"材料的單價至於相關假設是工法的改變你們會有意見嗎工法的改變不是不可以改只是在於說必須要告訴我們告訴我們為什麼要改變工法那你們會有意見嗎當然會經過討論會議去討論我說你們怎麼討論"},{"start":8696.383,"end":8714.549,"text":"當然先經過會議去討論你們內部也會有專家去檢核譬如說海事工程專家土木工程專家相關的這些專家去檢核世襲交來的東西嗎是啊 是啊我們公司自己也有工程人員OK 所以就是說世襲送來的你們也會做檢核"},{"start":8715.697,"end":8733.112,"text":"最後請問董事長 這案子這樣子下來啊照你的了解啦 照你的了解這個案子啊 中油的內部啊不要管行政程序有沒有瑕疵那裡面內部的事你判斷喔 這個案子這樣下來中油公司有沒有人會被移送法辦"},{"start":8734.229,"end":8755.69,"text":"我目前來講我不會我對我的同仁非常有信心我不認為我們公司的人有涉入在這整個過程中就你的了解啦我有對同仁有信心OK就是說對你現在你當董事長或之前總經理你掌握的這一個資訊你認為中油公司的同仁在這個案子裡頭啊"},{"start":8756.751,"end":8774.064,"text":"還不到這一個可能會被相關處罰的問題是就你有信心我有信心那行政程序上呢是有沒有瑕疵行政程序上也沒有瑕疵目前看起來所有檢視資料的腳都按照程序在走就這一個採購的案子"},{"start":8774.878,"end":8795.201,"text":"在中有歷次相關的採購裡頭這個採購的案子你看起來也沒有相關的瑕疵沒有也沒有相關的瑕疵是那這個媒體報導成這樣今天委員質詢成這樣最後你有沒有什麼要跟各位講說這個案子啊你們的最後的這一個態度是什麼"},{"start":8796.104,"end":8825.323,"text":"我態度就是說現在既然有新市政嘛我們重啟行政調查來表達我們中國公司的一個決心當然在這個過程中檢調單位也會再調查我們可以互相搭配如果說最後是有這個事實或者是沒有這個事實那當然所採取的後續的動作就會不一樣好 因為你當董事長負全責嘛這個案子所有相關的文件我相信你想要看你也都看得到"},{"start":8826.426,"end":8849.612,"text":"接下來包括法務部 調局或廉政署接下來或相關的檢察官在查這個案子的時候也一定會跟你們要是對吧那在跟你們要之前我判斷你也應該都會看過或者是你的幕僚人員也都會先看過這些案子的真實的這些資訊是所以到目前為止你還是很有信心是的"},{"start":8850.253,"end":8860.837,"text":"好 那就繼續加油那相關這一個檢察官要的資料不要做任何的隱瞞那就交給這個司法去進行相關的調查好 謝謝好 謝謝文委員那接下來請吳思瑤委員詢答"},{"start":8876.271,"end":8888.86,"text":"謝謝主席 請調查局陳局長經濟部何正次工程會陳副主委好 廉政署林副署長好 請幾位中郵方董事長"},{"start":8897.199,"end":8909.795,"text":"好 大家辛苦了這一週胸油會成為立法院非常Hard Issue大家做足準備該辯護就辯護 該澄清就澄清當然有不法就要徹查 下一頁"},{"start":8911.556,"end":8929.296,"text":"中油三接的爭議在我目前看來爆料的內容真相還未明他需要去徹查不管是司法調查或是行政調查但是對於一個國家重要的能源重大建設卻因為這些政治的操作卻"},{"start":8931.017,"end":8957.523,"text":"為盟其利 先受其害了中油是國家重要的能源建設但是如果這件事情我們沒有處理好說明不夠完整然後淪為這種爆料或是報復的行為被貼上了負面的標籤我覺得對於國家重要的能源建設真的都是賠了夫人又折兵"},{"start":8958.522,"end":8972.144,"text":"所以說 在 好 調查局長在這在您看來 目前為止的資訊中游的三接的這個海事的工程是弊案嗎包委員 現在目前在調查中"},{"start":8973.231,"end":8998.488,"text":"所以 爭委未定嘛 是不是弊案 不知道所以我們不要貼上了負面的標籤我再一次說 經濟部次長中油的三接案還曾經歷經過環保跟能源之間的拔河 歷經了公投最後這個重要的建設我們還是上路了在風雨當中 在爭議當中我們要讓爭議化解到最小"},{"start":8999.611,"end":9022.464,"text":"那它對於國家重要的能源發展有哪些正向的意義因為北部的供電其實對這個三接工程事實上是非常非常重要的那當然我們也不希望說因為這個事件影響到整個三接的這個工程的進行所以我們既然有新的事證我們經濟部也重啟了調查"},{"start":9023.044,"end":9041.137,"text":"那當然檢調這邊也積極在偵辦那我想到最後一定會有一個水漏石出我希望在真相水漏石出之前我還是希望社會看待中油的三接案不要就被冠上了一個被汙名化所謂弊案的標籤"},{"start":9042.578,"end":9067.061,"text":"三接岸對於國家的能源轉型對於我們要跟上世界接軌推動淨零排碳乃至於北台灣的供電的穩定因為不能夠再失衡了對不對 當初三接我們就是好不容易在我們的核能也好燃煤要退場我們當然在北部的燃氣它要有充足的氣源嘛"},{"start":9068.422,"end":9096.084,"text":"所以這個天然氣的接收站站在國家重大的能源建設的角度上它攸關能源轉型攸關淨零排碳國際的競爭力更是穩定北台灣的擁電我還是希望經濟部也好中油也好在真相未明之前我們要強化定調這個論述我不樂見國家任何的重大建設先被貼上了汙名化的標籤切莫以"},{"start":9096.784,"end":9120.494,"text":"弊案來看待到目前為止這對國家重大建設並不公平下一頁我請陳局長我看到你們的報告裡頭有說調查局受理的貪瀆檢舉從2021到2025是1月有關國營事業就包括中油台電台水這些的整體的數字我整理在這裡"},{"start":9123.016,"end":9141.391,"text":"總體的受理的案件415案移送案件118案所以移送的比例是28%而移送案件當中的確實經司法審判目前起訴的案件因為我不能弄判決的案件因為很多還在審判中起訴的案件是61案換言之"},{"start":9143.553,"end":9163.687,"text":"不起訴的比例是86%起訴的案件是14%這告訴我們什麼有很多是到最後調查是查無那個不法的事證是 所以說這個數字會說話有14%的起訴任何一個案子都不能縱容"},{"start":9164.548,"end":9185.701,"text":"不管一億的案件一百億的案件任何的弊案就是不能縱容即便它只是一案我們還是要踏伐還是要依法就辦但是以你們調查局受理的所有的移送比例受理案件到移送包括這當中有一個gap是因為可能他監察就是檢舉不實或者是證據不足或者是烏龍爆料"},{"start":9188.923,"end":9203.937,"text":"然後真正的進入了起訴司法審判裡頭被起訴是14%不起訴是86%換言之檢舉的不實是極有可能發生甚至是多數就你們這個資料是這樣嗎"},{"start":9204.817,"end":9225.822,"text":"这是有可能的但是我们调查局的立场就是说对于任何一件检举的案件我们不设前提对我们一定进最大的进调查之能就是司法案件所谓案子有没有弊核心就在证据而不是政治或是其他力量的干扰不会有任何政治的考量我们请这个廉政署的副署长"},{"start":9227.475,"end":9252.951,"text":"服務長你好我也整理了你們的資料廉政署你們負責這個行政調查方面的這些數字確定判決你們從一樣2009到2025年受理的貪瀆廉政調查的案件呢移送的起訴的還起訴的到最終確定判決是358件很高我還是覺得很高雖然他比例是6.8%"},{"start":9255.855,"end":9277.538,"text":"確定判決的不法案件6.8%在你們移送司法調查之後那多數啦還是可能像剛剛調查局的數字差不多如果證據不實或者是檢舉是惡意的當然我們要還當事人清白那您簡單跟我講一下你們這個數字你們的解讀是什麼"},{"start":9279.578,"end":9300.996,"text":"報告委員在本署的偵辦案件裡面如果是明顯事證不足然後就會落在簽結的這個領域您大聲一點如果是在本署調查的過程明顯的事證不足那在廉政署那邊就會做簽結是那移送之後如果是檢察官認定沒有到起訴門檻就會落入不起訴"},{"start":9301.707,"end":9321.797,"text":"所以我们自行牵结的是四成但是多数我们也是认为有疑虑我们就移送对不对那移送司法去调查之后呢确定判决是6.8%所以要提醒我们在看待所有的贪毒检举案我们还是让真相查清楚再下定论好下一页"},{"start":9324.518,"end":9342.107,"text":"非常遺憾這個在野黨的委員用記者會的方式他們認為接受了吹哨者的陳情或是爆料用開記者會的方式就讓中油的三接案被貼上了弊案的標籤我再一次說沒有查清楚之前不宜這樣汙名化國家重要的能源建設下一頁"},{"start":9350.913,"end":9360.732,"text":"現在呢我看了你們全部的報告查核過三次對不對經濟部查核兩次嘛工程會查核過一次有沒有異狀"},{"start":9363.928,"end":9382.268,"text":"來誰代表跟我們報告我們從這個採購法的相關的程序內容來看的話並沒有任何的依照好經濟部也是嘛工程會也是嘛剛剛經濟部工程會也是嘛副主委那我請方董事長目前三接的進度多少"},{"start":9385.182,"end":9403.815,"text":"實際進度我不記得但是一個很重要的就是三接對外來講已經開始供應天然氣了從今年的6月已經方董事長我是不太同意您的回答實際的進度就寫在你的報告裡面75%而且超前了多少"},{"start":9404.884,"end":9421.725,"text":"超前了16.52%所以如果不是今天這個個案被爆料該查就查他實質的剛剛經濟部查核了兩次工程會查核了一次你們實質的進度是達到75%甚至進度超前了16.52%"},{"start":9424.301,"end":9443.957,"text":"這是這個建設到目前的狀況所以說好現在進行中因為被舉發了就該查不管是從拱明星部長不管是你們廉政署不管是法務部不管是中郵自己也重啟調查不管是工程會兩個月也專案"},{"start":9445.948,"end":9464.523,"text":"調查嗎如果我作為一個立法委員我要監督的是如果有人檢舉有人爆料不管他是惡意的是不是屬實我該監督的是如果所有的相關單位所有的相關機關構不查不辦不作為這才是我監督的重點"},{"start":9465.842,"end":9474.705,"text":"如果查了之後確實有弊案有不法那就該罰該救處的絕對不能縱容這也是我監督的重點或者是作為我們其他政策調整的參照這應當是一個負責任的國會議員該做的我說的是當一個案件如果被舉發了不查不辦不作為才是我該監督的"},{"start":9490.545,"end":9517.451,"text":"調查之後確定司法調查之後或者是行政調查之後認為有弊端的話我如果你們輕罰該嚴辦的不嚴辦那我當然也要監督但是除此之外所有的內容不應當是我在這裡任何一個立法委員在這裡帶風向未審先判政治力介入個案的這是我今天要說的重點"},{"start":9518.649,"end":9537.258,"text":"所以說呢 在下一頁非常遺憾 個案的政治公審又來了這一週 司法法治委員會就今天翁找偉排案 我尊重 我也在這裡履行我的問政的職責中遊三街的工程款爭議 今天要一次報告"},{"start":9538.567,"end":9558.921,"text":"那這一週在經濟委員會也針對中油三接案的公傳款的爭議再排一次會甚至國民黨團也在院會提了要求甚至我不能接受的是你要邀請行政院長來做任何專案報告我們都尊重但是對一個案子是非為民"},{"start":9560.622,"end":9586.778,"text":"還沒有定驗沒有經過完整的查查查辦卻以觀塘液化天然氣接收站也就是三階工程的弊案邀請行政院長來立法院備詢就以弊案來代之我認為這不是立法委員能夠做的你可以邀請行政院長來專案報告對於他的爭議疑義就像今天好 招委用爭議很好"},{"start":9588.619,"end":9609.66,"text":"如果是未審先判政治的公審就以閉案來貼上了負面的標籤查查出來如果沒有閉案呢如果查查沒有不法呢我認為這個都要審慎所以我再說一次不要介入個案不要用政治來公審"},{"start":9611.141,"end":9637.12,"text":"交给廉政署调查局行政的查处以及相关司法单位的司法调查他们才是有专业的调查工具的国家司法人员再一次提醒我作为一个立法委员如果今天这个案子有人检举你们站在我对面的这些官员们不查不办不作为才是我要监督的对象如果查了"},{"start":9638.081,"end":9666.191,"text":"沒有不法還人家清白可是對於中油被貼上的負面標籤這真的是為盟其利 鮮受其害它是重要的國家能源轉型的建設那如果真的查了有弊案你們還輕放不罰那更是我要強力去批判你們的但那個時間點不是現在我要請所有的從政同仁我們立法院的委員們不分黨派"},{"start":9667.091,"end":9684.43,"text":"曾幾何時你們最痛恨的淨檢你們不都說淨檢亂說話嗎今天拿週刊的爆料翻好像正義又轉了彎我認為我們不要兩套標準該查的在程序中我們都尊重司法的調查政治人少說話"},{"start":9685.831,"end":9705.757,"text":"要說就說基於何允的監督的權限而不是對於任何個案調查中就先奏下了定論這是我今天我表達的立場但是方董事長一個案子一億有任何弊案我們一樣絕對不縱容更何況這是253億的被檢舉的案件該釐清就釐清"},{"start":9712.762,"end":9717.845,"text":"我希望大家坦然面對司法的偵辦好辛苦大家謝謝好謝謝吳委員的發言我想我作為司法法治委員會的召委看到國營事業的弊案重生那麼尤其是檢調單位是不是有積極的在查辦在偵辦這個事情我作為立法委員我認為必須要"},{"start":9741.933,"end":9769.505,"text":"積極的去監督那麼所有的案件的狀況那從今天各個單位裡面所提供的報告裡面的確我們可以看到一些端倪為什麼而且透過詢答也知道其實不少單位其實真的在去年就已經收到中游三接的二期的檢舉函那可是為什麼都沒有積極的來偵辦那麼所以在"},{"start":9770.615,"end":9796.506,"text":"面對這麼重要的案子不同的委員會的委員都應該要負起這樣的職責來好好的了解到底我們台灣我們的公共工程出了些什麼問題那麼以及我們公堂有沒有被福報被濫用這應該是作為立法委員很重要的職責所以在這一周有不同的委員會來召開相關的會議那我認為是非常"},{"start":9797.336,"end":9811.869,"text":"合理的而且是有它的必要性接下來我們就請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在接下來請林德福委員詢答"},{"start":9830.916,"end":9843.64,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請法務部正部長還有經濟部的何次長好 請部長還有次長委員好部長 您好"},{"start":9849.195,"end":9876.53,"text":"我想因為媒體在報導在2024年曾有這個飆落廠商檢舉類似的內容經濟部政風單位當時已經展開調查結果並沒有發現一些不法的行為那我請問八卦次長八卦這次檢舉時間到底是王美花的當部長的時間還是郭志輝前部長的任內"},{"start":9878.231,"end":9896.901,"text":"我講本案是疑點重重啦那本期是希望說檢調應該要儘速查清楚如果調查後發現媒體踢爆的全體資料有變造的情況似乎會另案來偵辦 部長你的看法呢"},{"start":9898.165,"end":9924.594,"text":"謝謝委員 那目前的話就是由台北地檢局指揮調查局跟廉政署在做一個偵辦那事實上那個檢舉的檢舉的那一部分那個剛才也講過了在去年在一一三年九月的時候就廉政署就接到檢舉那有請那個政風處來做一個行政調查那另外在今年那個調查局跟廉政署在今年的八月份都有接到檢舉都有就立案了"},{"start":9925.094,"end":9939.65,"text":"那現在都已經立案在偵辦了那我們就我們也希望就是勿往勿中積極來瞭解底清來做一個 如果有的話那我們就嚴辦那沒有到犯人侵犯到底他是在王美花部長那時候任內還是在郭志輝部長任內"},{"start":9943.024,"end":9967.724,"text":"這個三階工程的話應該是在王部長任內 時間很長因為政府採購法第70條規定機關辦理工程採購因明定廠商執行的品質管理環境保護以及施工安全衛生之責任並對重點項目訂定檢查程序以及檢驗的標準"},{"start":9969.665,"end":9990.618,"text":"那另外工程施工查核小組作業辦法第四條也規定民眾或廠商檢舉媒體報導或有資料顯示已有偽私或異常的工程標案工程施工查核小組應該要視為施工進度優先納入來查核"},{"start":9991.539,"end":10010.226,"text":"那我請問也請工程會的代理人來上來工程會的委員是否會優先做這個啟動工程施工查核小組來查核中油三接的整個工程是否有主要材料設備與設計不符的這種狀況"},{"start":10013.886,"end":10037.154,"text":"包委員 就工程查核的部分當然是有一個選案的一些標準但是就工程會因為去年我們並沒有工程會沒有接受到這個案子的檢舉函所以我們去工程查的時候並不是針對檢舉而是依照這個例行性的一些挑案所以由經濟部去查核兩次工程會去查核一次但是我們去查的時候並不知道有這個檢舉函"},{"start":10039.827,"end":10050.91,"text":"因為根據中游說法觀塘接收站外推方案的外擴黃波體興建工程是委託台灣4C公司來規劃先期作業成像"},{"start":10056.292,"end":10071.338,"text":"三家業者訪價也有進行公開閱覽程序後並考量整個營建物價的指數才進行工程的設計編列整個招標預算的金額以招標文件的製作"},{"start":10073.359,"end":10092.456,"text":"當時該項工程的設計在台灣市區董事長就是前立委叫施易芳任內是民進黨的音系那如今有新的錄音黨出現透過媒體來爆料這當中有沒有民進黨派系裡面的"},{"start":10094.458,"end":10120.38,"text":"惡鬥因為到上週五台灣市區目前的董事長是鄭運鵬以前的立委同仁都沒有對外來澄清駁斥相關的報導來指控令人好奇的是否有交通部行政院甚至於總統府的高層指示台灣市區不要對外發言這種狀況真的講外界有這些質疑"},{"start":10122.228,"end":10139.134,"text":"這是讓人家感覺說為什麼整個台灣世襲裡面頭到尾你們規劃設計但是到真正發生問題人家在質疑的時候你沒有出來澄清這個人家就打問號啊對不對 部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":10142.067,"end":10170.881,"text":"那這個案件您是在在偵辦中了那這部分我就不再講我希望積極處理啦這部分一定大概檢查會有不管到底有沒有弊端有弊端就給就要這個馬上偵辦沒有弊端的話當然也就是還他一個清白我認為這個很重要不要用拖延的方式來做處理那是大家不能接受的因為這個時間已經很長了不是今天才發生的"},{"start":10171.661,"end":10185.963,"text":"對不對 那有沒有作為就是看這裡今年十月一號媒體報導美國農業部次長來台推銷美國乙醇生殖的燃料稱只有在汽油加入百分之十的乙醇混合物"},{"start":10186.944,"end":10201.144,"text":"有助來降低整個溫室的氣體來排放那也可以推進雙邊貿易夥伴的關係那過去政府在中油曾經推動升值柴油的政策但民眾抱怨"},{"start":10202.105,"end":10230.484,"text":"反應容易造成車輛故障等因此104年監察院也糾正整個經濟部以及所屬的人員局的有關那升值能源的政策適當那本席是希望說經濟部在推動進口美國乙醇升值燃料時不要花大錢當冤大頭要記得過去升值能源的政策失敗的原因也鼓勵民眾使用乙醇升值這個"},{"start":10232.525,"end":10250.599,"text":"燃料時務必要確保不會造成民眾車輛的損害我相信這個站在大眾的立場應該要如此去做那因為時間到了我就不再後續繼續詢問那謝謝召委 謝謝好 謝謝林委員那接下來請鍾嘉賓委員鍾嘉賓委員"},{"start":10261.463,"end":10289.487,"text":"鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們接下來就請鄭天才委員詢答好 主席有請這個廉政署署長有請廉政署"},{"start":10297.946,"end":10322.095,"text":"副署長今天的主題中油三接福報工程款爭議及近年來國營事業貪瀆案件查處成效因為剛才很多委員都已經質詢了法務部部長也特別提到爭判中"},{"start":10323.366,"end":10342.639,"text":"所以當然我們是希望盡快的完成這個偵辦那我們今天我主要還是要談怎麼樣去防範未來我們今天的一個主題當然這個媒體有這麼詳細"},{"start":10345.178,"end":10369.914,"text":"的一個報導這個我們確實是要去從這個這樣的一個事件然後去了解整個相關我們的國營事業無論是中油台糖這個台電等等很多的國營事業如果按照你們廉政署自己的報告裡面也提到"},{"start":10371.849,"end":10398.731,"text":"這個這幾年確實無論是中油台糖或者是台電都有這些涉及到不法的一個事件你們也都處理可能還有很多沒有注意到的部分所以這個部分怎麼樣去防範未來這個是一個很重要的因為基本上在行政機關"},{"start":10400.697,"end":10414.853,"text":"在政府機關都有政風單位這個在國營事業請問一下這個副署長在國營事業你們這個怎麼樣去有相關的"},{"start":10417.222,"end":10439.515,"text":"這個陣風單位嗎我們在一些比較重要的國營事業是有設陣風單位像中友的話呢中友它的中高階主管都是由廉政署這邊就比較有經驗的陣風人員派過去所以他是有派在中高階主管的部分"},{"start":10440.635,"end":10464.335,"text":"像其他的國營事業都有不一定哪些沒有主要有設的是中油台電台糖水利公司像淘氣公司還有一些國營的銀行所以這個部分"},{"start":10466.533,"end":10495.595,"text":"怎麼樣去強化 已經有了但是確實又好像這個是不是有沒有發揮最大的功效那一般行政機關都有比較大家都已經有這樣的一個了解然後執行各方面所以在這個國營事業的部分現在如果我們從這個政府採購法這個部分"},{"start":10497.355,"end":10526.536,"text":"所以怎麼樣去針對政府採購法當然有的涉及到很專業很專業怎麼樣去因應從這個已經有的這些過去已經發生的案件然後現在正在這個偵辦中的案件在偵辦中的案件也能夠去了解才能夠不要再發生"},{"start":10528.074,"end":10551.679,"text":"不要再發生這樣的一個這是一個更重要的了偵辦中的他就偵辦當然希望那個積極偵辦當然從你們的去了解這個個案然後去解決防範未然甚至你們去了解這個個案的當下"},{"start":10554.696,"end":10582.205,"text":"也可以去聊去協助可以協助現在的檢調單位啊 是吧報告委員我們在案件申辦之後申辦移送之後如果發現該單位有需要再進行的措施那會提請他們去檢討改進那另外如果是案件比如說將來判決那檢方也會跟我們一些意見我們會做再訪判的工作"},{"start":10583.117,"end":10611.457,"text":"沒有錯但是偵辦中的部分也要積極的去了解也可以去協助你們積極的去了解之後你就可以協助檢調單位尤其是檢察官因為他們這個也有他們的極限各種這個協助各方的協助當然防範於未來是最重要好不好加油"},{"start":10616.633,"end":10622.433,"text":"好 謝謝鄭委員那接下來我們請林倩琦委員詢答"},{"start":10634.619,"end":10655.647,"text":"好 謝謝我們的翁朝偉我想先請這個中油董事長方董事長還有核次長經濟部核次長和工程會主委我們今天是陳副主委來代表是 工程會陳副主委"},{"start":10658.001,"end":10679.199,"text":"謝謝幾位我們今天的主題當然就是我們中油三接的弊案本席在一開始先來關心一下三接工程的品質還有建造責任相關的問題因為目前二期的工程經費的福報產生了一些爭議但是同一批的業者在第一期的工程"},{"start":10679.719,"end":10704.734,"text":"也有一些問題跟一些爭議所以本席這邊來關心一下有關於工程品質的這個部分跟海岸的一個管理海岸的施工還有海岸的安全其實有一些相關性你們在中油公司在107年的10月26號決標了三接的工程然後是委託了台灣世西剛才我聽到很多委員也在談這個世西工程顧問公司的一些狀況但是施工是這個"},{"start":10708.297,"end":10729.338,"text":"黃昌建設跟這個泛亞工程來承攬那麼第一期呢重點是在港區興建這個防波堤那結構是大量的一個沉箱那麼設計上很重要的是不僅要抵抗強浪的這個衝擊那也要注意到海岸安全的一個品質但是施工的品質在那個階段就已經都被質疑了"},{"start":10730.198,"end":10752.695,"text":"防波堤的沉箱長寬高各25公尺但是比例上如果混凝土的配比不符合規範或者是化學生料的比例不對的話鋼筋跟混凝土的分離就會產生整個結構變成像豆腐渣這樣一個狀況因為本席也常常在海岸跑"},{"start":10753.195,"end":10769.362,"text":"你們這個東西防波堤已經在海岸的安全很多人都要注意了如果施工不良的話又更讓這樣一個安全產生更重大的一個危害但是在一些相關的聯盟像藻礁公投推動聯盟"},{"start":10770.282,"end":10785.56,"text":"在施工的階段就已經指出來有15座城鄉的結構破裂混凝土面積大量的剝落鋼筋水泥又外露這個看起來是很明顯的結構性的問題很重要的是後續還有工程船的擱淺"},{"start":10787.317,"end":10809.13,"text":"早焦的受損近年還有一些公安事故已經造成了7名工人的死傷監察院跟勞動部都已經要求中油的檢討看來三接的工程品質也有一些令人質疑的部分監照的失職還有內部管理的問題似乎在現階段都要很積極的來做一個處理"},{"start":10810.931,"end":10832.584,"text":"本席這邊要請教董事長的事這15座的破裂的城鄉的品質瑕疵究竟是怎麼發生的是設計錯誤還是材料不符還是建造單位疏於查驗第二個部分是建造過程當中有沒有定期來抽驗滾泥土的強度還有化學參比的一個比例"},{"start":10834.045,"end":10859.76,"text":"如果有或者是您在這邊沒有辦法很清楚的這個細節的回應的話會後是不是也可以把相關的資料給本席針對本席上面所指的問題那最後一個部分是那麼你們有沒有針對施工廠商跟建造單位啟動他這個工程品質相對違約的一個相關機制跟責任的救處那是不是可以請您針對以上問題很快的簡短的跟本席做一個回應謝謝委員讓我有機會就這個部分做說明"},{"start":10863.184,"end":10867.118,"text":"對於公司來講 對於工程的品質 它是品質至上的"},{"start":10868.334,"end":10895.006,"text":"這個品質是沒有什麼打折扣的空間對於這個城鄉破損的原因我特別說明一下破損的原因在哪裡並沒有說摻混比例不足的問題也沒有摻混特別的化學品在裡面那麼這個破損的原因是因為這個城鄉是在台北港的地去做預置預置之後它要放到一個暫存區去養護"},{"start":10896.647,"end":10924.306,"text":"那麼在剛開始的時候呢這個每一個城鄉暫存的距離不夠所以因此在港區裡面如果天氣不好的時候有湧浪去推頂這個城鄉呢就會造成城鄉之間的一個碰撞所以應該是在設計的這個部分可能有一些不太專業的地方沒有 是城鄉完成了以後放在暫存區的時候呢兩個城鄉之間的距離不夠"},{"start":10925.446,"end":10949.981,"text":"所以這你們就要跟海事相關的一些專業來做討論常常在工程本席這邊發現尤其台灣的海域在工程上大家就是工程做工程的可是針對特殊的地形或者是特殊的需要很少去諮詢或者是做比較更完整的一些討論所以做出來的東西要嘛地形不符或者是沒有了解到您剛才講到永浪的這個問題那這應該很多海事專業的人他們應該會了解"},{"start":10953.763,"end":10975.258,"text":"不同區域那麼海底跟這個海的這個變化那這就本席提出來一個問題啊對 所以不管你們是在哪一個階段那畢竟您說在暫存的時候那間距算的不夠就產生這樣一個問題對不對對所以它這中間還是有一些可以再檢討的部分嘛對不對我們也檢討了所以把暫存的距離把它放大"},{"start":10976.298,"end":10993.009,"text":"第二個原因就是當這個城鄉從台北港拖到三接所在地去定位完了以後需要把這個城鄉裡面要放置石塊還有沙去把它填滿填滿這些動作的話就必須要有機具去做"},{"start":10995.651,"end":11013.784,"text":"這個黃艙它做的時候它是用怪手沿著這個沉箱的頂去開過去以後去做這些相關的作為但是大家也曉得就是說這個怪手的話它是一個鋁帶 鋁帶帶動的這個鋁帶就會造成這個沉箱的上方"},{"start":11014.825,"end":11029.837,"text":"會去把它剝落造成它的傷害所以原因在這裡那後續的話我們就要求他們你要做這個事情的時候你應該在上面要鋪鋼板來去避免那個怪手的履帶跟"},{"start":11030.618,"end":11056.897,"text":"沉箱去接觸那麼後來也解決這類的問題所以這應該是一個施工技術你們可能過去沒有經驗或者是在過程當中沒有事先做好這個部分的一個討論對不對 對但是重點是在於說這個沉箱發現有破損你怎麼去處理那這個處理的過程中我們當然第一個要確定說你的鋼筋混凝土的比例有沒有用對不對那所以我們要求就是說你要去專心把這個取樣出來來看這個取樣的產品"},{"start":11059.939,"end":11085.155,"text":"是你們在檢測的時候對本席這邊就您剛才講的工程的部分當然有相關的專業可是本席這邊要跟您再次強調未來這個機會應該也很多所以你們在這個階段所碰觸到的問題本席聽起來就是沒有因應地理環境然後跟海事相關人員很確切的把可能每一個階段會施工的"},{"start":11085.695,"end":11111.474,"text":"產生技術性的這個問題把它在先前做好我想這應該給你們在下一個階段的這個工程的技術處理上你們應該再更縝密一點然後前面發生的狀況不要再發生才不會引起外界的一個疑慮所以你們剛才說這樣子弄好了之後可能因為前面的階段又產生了你們可能要再去專心去了解一下這結構上或者是混凝土的比例等等是不是OK我覺得這是連帶的"},{"start":11113.956,"end":11132.075,"text":"所以你們這其實也很容易讓人家本席剛才所提出來的那比例有沒有參混那或許在不是很專業的施工過程當中導致這些疑慮那我想這個應該不僅是你們內部要再做一個檢視那未來也不要再發生了是"},{"start":11132.295,"end":11148.335,"text":"好不好那這個是本席針對這個部分如果有試射你們在檢視的過程當中那有試射政府採購法比如說101條那如果有這個品質不佳或偷工減料的情勢您剛才講的是施工的這個部分嘛但是"},{"start":11148.695,"end":11170.331,"text":"如果因此而產生了本席所講的這些狀況我想你們應該要這個工程會不好意思你們要很清楚的釐清是不是有將這些業者假設有這個情況發生要登載在公報上依照我們的相關的法規目前聽忠友這樣講你們大概有了解施工的一個狀況"},{"start":11171.092,"end":11188.095,"text":"不過重點就是說公共工程我們如果能夠多一些專業的處理可以少一些後續大家的疑慮甚至搞不好真正萬一在這個過程當中大家不明白或者是真有一些觸法的情勢發生我想這都是大家不樂見的"},{"start":11189.036,"end":11206.925,"text":"所以基本上這個工程品質我們希望不要讓這個東西再成為海上豆腐渣也希望在你們施工的時候不要再去衝擊到原本都在海邊生活的環境跟人好嗎好 謝謝接下來我們就針對要請防務部 調查局還有這個廉政署"},{"start":11211.389,"end":11232.569,"text":"委員好謝謝這個很短的時間如果相關的訊息沒有辦法很快的回應再麻煩你們會後補一些資料我想今天這個主題很多都是針對媒體的揭露原本94億元的這樣一個價格然後在招標的過程當中引發"},{"start":11233.61,"end":11258.872,"text":"不僅是疑慮啦已經有這樣弊案的一個產生那基本上就是原本大家的這個估價到最後呢一路漲到150億220億那麼可能中游也有很令人很疑慮的這個部分所以產生這樣所謂的圖利的問題那不知道部長您對於原本的估價到後來受業者的一個暗示也好明示也好或者是指示也好那到最後"},{"start":11259.733,"end":11267.564,"text":"那個報價已經維護平常您覺得這樣子有沒有圖利的問題跟委員報告因為這個案件已經在"},{"start":11268.939,"end":11298.439,"text":"立案已經在調查偵辦中那我也很關心這個問題我相信檢察官他對這些媒體的報導會做一一的釐清那事實上這部分本席所講的剛才那個狀況就是說原本報價那業界大概都知道是差不多怎麼樣子的一個價格結果到最後出來的這個感覺讓人家很福報的這樣一個結果這個如果有這樣子的情勢發生應該基本上可能有影響而且可能到了一個圖利的"},{"start":11299.479,"end":11325.07,"text":"這部分法律上的一個評價要用證據來做一個認定那必須要經過調查那我相信整個委員官心的以及媒體所報導的這部分我相信檢調連辦案單位他們會去注意到這些的問題的一個調查釐清那調查的結果因為我們沒辦法去預設這個結果所以我們就尊重辦案單位的一個偵查的一個步驟跟計畫"},{"start":11327.335,"end":11349.476,"text":"好的 各位本席認為如果有剛才本席所講的這樣一個情勢那確實是已經到了一種圖利的階段當然您講的這個狀況是說目前在調查中那您不便做一些回應但是本席是認為剛才本席講的如果原先估價是如此那業界大概認為這樣估價合理可是卻很不合理的讓人感覺到福報"},{"start":11351.398,"end":11370.985,"text":"甚至有人很確定也是福報的話這樣子基本上應該是有一個圖利的行為產生了這是我們是就法論法跟就狀況而言但是針對這樣您當然是媒體的報導目前檢調在處理一切就依法跟依規來看最後的結果是如何"},{"start":11371.365,"end":11388.218,"text":"但是當然報載這個部分也值得您這邊參考一下在2022年跟2025年的檢舉報載說檢舉人皆被沉默以對是不是有人蓄意的押案你們是不是可以來啟動一下內部的一個了解"},{"start":11388.798,"end":11414.487,"text":"是不是有一個相關責任需要去做做釐清跟處理第二個部分是避免工程圖例被選擇性的辦案重大的弊案被吃案這是一般民眾常常會有疑慮的這個部分法務部你們應該建立一個重大採購案的檢舉專案的監督機制不管您覺得有沒有或者是您可能有一些不同的考量"},{"start":11414.867,"end":11435.355,"text":"但是我想民眾的疑慮或許你們可以透過一些像機制平台的建立或者是更積極的一點溝通讓大家對於這種疑慮去減輕我覺得也是你們的一個相關的責任雖然你們都依法論法但是本席常認為就是說法務部在某一些事情的處理上可以更積極 更親民一點"},{"start":11437.356,"end":11447.269,"text":"讓民眾了解然後也減少一些疑慮我覺得這應該是法務部除了你們在法律的專業以外那也應該讓民眾可以了解的您的看法呢"},{"start":11448.788,"end":11466.761,"text":"我想這個我們絕對沒有吃案那個只有檢舉的話有的我們都會收文都會入案那這邊該去走行政調查路線或者做司法調查或者是調查完了結果這部分我想我們都會做有一些的處理其實像廉政署他沒有接到檢舉的話"},{"start":11467.902,"end":11492.756,"text":"其實有前幾個他們有個廉政審查會他會請外聘委員來做一個檢視然後看看有沒有可以再調查的如果可以調查我們再重啟調查那如果說這個調查已經可以告一口斷絡我們會再請那個機關再去檢視你們是不是在做一個更積極的一個防攤的一個作為我想這個都是有這個機制若委員現在了解我們用書面來做一個回應"},{"start":11493.878,"end":11515.626,"text":"好的 謝謝部長所以希望法務部調查局你們在這個月提供一下內部的檢討跟相關的疑雲的釐清的相關報告給本席基本上對大家的疑問或者是更積極的一個溝通平台處理像本席剛才提到一個建議就是說是不是可以有一些重大採購案的監督機制"},{"start":11519.047,"end":11546.956,"text":"檢舉專案的這個監督機制的可能性那我覺得都可以做一個參考跟討論是 謝謝委員跟委員報告我們調查局是在今年8月的時候才收到一次的檢舉對 這是針對這個個案啦那本席今天談的是大概一整天大家針對這個個案延伸出很多的一個問題的詢問或者是某一些建議像剛才鄭委員就建議說有些東西我們現在碰到了那未來就不要再犯所以本席這邊也建議說那如果民眾有疑慮就是這個重大的這個"},{"start":11548.877,"end":11565.135,"text":"這個案好像有被施案的這個可能有設置或機構的單位應該都有受理的一個機制是一個告發檢舉的機制那我想這部分我們會後我們如果說我們再用書面來做一個會"},{"start":11567.477,"end":11588.368,"text":"所以相關的細節就麻煩你們再補一下相關的資料給我們做一個參考好 謝謝這麼的討論基本上是大家都希望一個司法正義那疑慮常常都會有那我們怎麼樣去溝通這樣一個疑慮我想這個應該是一個永不止息的必要性好 謝謝"},{"start":11591.377,"end":11615.937,"text":"好 謝謝林委員的質詢那麼剛剛林委員所提出的幾個所知或是請你們要提供的報告也麻煩法務部還有調查局會後要提供那麼今天幾個委員都非常關心就是像是這個檢舉告發機制你們現在的目前的SOP的作業程序是如何那麼如果說已經有的話那就是把你們現在做的"},{"start":11617.062,"end":11646.703,"text":"那就是告诉大家我们要想从制度面来了解那么不是说法务部自己说没有吃案那大家就会相信没有吃案而是要用事实用证据来说话这大家才会信任那么今天也感谢几个国营事业的董事长经理然后来本会来做备询那么我也期许就是方董事长中国方董事长这个案子基本上大家众所瞩目"},{"start":11647.687,"end":11658.078,"text":"也希望透過這個案子然後可以再要求中油公司的員工要更注意不要去違反了相關的貪污 貪毒 舞弊等等這些問題然後自己的裡面的中油的紀律要建立"},{"start":11667.223,"end":11692.008,"text":"好好謝謝好那我們今天對不起還有一個就是最後一位徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在那麼我們現在就是所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢了我們今天的詢答就到此結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或者是以書面答覆者的話也請相關機關盡速送交個別委員會以及本會"},{"start":11695.779,"end":11708.832,"text":"好那麼委員審發會所提的書面質詢就列入記錄刊登不公報那並請相關機關以書面答覆好的那麼我們今天會議就到此結束現在散會好謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}