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各位請就座名者陳培宇介紹嘛"},{"start":2157.926,"end":2158.066,"text":"明澤開戲齁 好"},{"start":2160.714,"end":2181.071,"text":"好 各位請就座因為奉宴會之命今天召開各黨也就是審查交通有關法令也就是大會交與政黨來協商各政黨都已經到現在我們就正式開會"},{"start":2182.512,"end":2203.157,"text":"那現在開會主要的內容是公路華經由宴會結議交由黨團今天來協商現在我來介紹今天各黨出席的代表我們民進黨陳培宜執行長書記長啦 書記長國民黨魯明哲也是幹事長"},{"start":2208.896,"end":2234.458,"text":"台灣民眾黨陳昭珠書記長以上三黨都在場現在我來介紹今天出席的各單位代表我們交通部我們常務次長林國賢公共運輸監理師胡迪奇書長陸正道之檢任記政黃檢任記政"},{"start":2238.115,"end":2262.29,"text":"綜合規劃師專門委員 陳專門委員會計室專門委員 鄭專門委員法制室 喜鴻達處長公路局副局長 林聰立副局長高速公路主任工程師 陳柏妍工程師運輸所副所長 王副所長"},{"start":2265.704,"end":2294.355,"text":"財政部國庫署紅科長警政署內政部交通署陳朝新陳署長警政署警務鎮林警務鎮經濟部國營管理師師長胡文忠師長中油公司長途管線處林處長台電公司總經理王總經理"},{"start":2296.536,"end":2315.222,"text":"台水公司處長蔡博焱處長金融監理管理保險師專門委員王專門委員農業部林業自然署林檢任暨政林試驗所政組長"},{"start":2323.064,"end":2334.078,"text":"環境部大漆體師離檢任記證行政院主計總署公務預算正檢任視察"},{"start":2335.562,"end":2357.865,"text":"以上還沒有介紹的我們等一下來補充介紹以上針對審查會通過的條文有哪幾條有意見無意見的部分我們在審查會的結果也經由委員會審查通過的有意見的條文的部分"},{"start":2358.726,"end":2383.516,"text":"再依序請各黨來表示意見那針對今天的主題除了僅有72條有意見之外因為這跟道路這些蒙筒蓋這個有問題那這個我們再來表示意見那至於其他沒有意見是經由委員會"},{"start":2384.656,"end":2400.375,"text":"已經送出宴會處理那如果沒有意見的我們就讓他通過就不討論那現在是不是針對第七十二條的部分請各黨來表示意見那也要拜託"},{"start":2402.016,"end":2418.346,"text":"嚴則性這三分鐘就把它結束那這個72條也是民進黨我們提案的那是不是那個明哲還有那個趙姿我們先給民進黨陳書記長來表示一點意見好不好"},{"start":2423.373,"end":2451.871,"text":"好 謝謝主席我在三分鐘內說完確實這個版本是民進黨團的委員們所提案的我想我們還是要再次呼籲重視每一個人的用路安全絕對是朝野的共識也是我們希望國家在執政的時候相關的行政資源或相關的部會都要積極予以配合所以我們要先強調我們非常重視同時也尊重所有用路人的用路安全但是72條有一些疑義我還是要在這裡提出"},{"start":2452.831,"end":2469.609,"text":"就是所謂的這個孔蓋降埋這件事情我想要就以最近發生在光復鄉的這個土石流的案例為例在整個沖刷都進入所有的鄉當時光復鄉所有的主要幹道包含還有旁邊的農田"},{"start":2470.69,"end":2496.255,"text":"所有的這些用路空間全部都被砂石掩埋而且動用到全台灣非常多產值超人去當志工而且進入到每個人家戶裡頭不是只有在用路上面所以如果來看真的把所有的孔蓋都降埋那我不知道我難以想像我們在那個一層一層的土石下面還要再去挖開把那個孔蓋降埋那個上面那個水泥然後再用金屬灘再去把它找出來"},{"start":2498.235,"end":2513.085,"text":"這個困境會延誤搶修時間有多少我認為其實是難以估算可是如果回過頭來看到底孔蓋降埋之後我們本來要進行的搶救要進行哪些工程呢我們來說一下第一個相關單位你們必須要向路權機關進行搶修報備大概耗時就要將近半個小時再來然後就開始找孔蓋的位置大概也要0.5到1個小時"},{"start":2523.411,"end":2543.729,"text":"那第三步進行切割就是把那個孔蓋降埋旁邊的這個水泥切割挖掘大概是兩個小時到兩個半小時還要再清理周邊環境大概又是半個小時到一個小時最後再把孔蓋打開確認事故位置並且開始搶修我以上講的這些數據是在監察院的一份調查報告裡面談到關於鹿貧專案孔蓋降埋的部分"},{"start":2549.314,"end":2562.482,"text":"這個專業的意見來自於監察院的調查也就是說孔蓋一旦降埋除了我剛剛所說的像光復箱或是最近蘇澳的淹水事件我們都難以想像為了拯救相關的附電為了搶修完成民生用電等等的業務我們為了孔蓋降埋所必須要額外花的時間其實難以估計而且按照監察院這份報告裡面還說"},{"start":2575.65,"end":2602.94,"text":"這個孔蓋降埋必須耗掉的時間平均大概是3.5小時比沒有降埋前增加14倍而增加這個時間的成本其實就是延誤了用電人的時間所以我先說我們非常支持道路平整我們也看到台電在相關業務全台灣有102.5萬個地下電纜維修孔蓋目前我知道你們的數字已經有34.6萬個配合下地降埋"},{"start":2603.88,"end":2631.354,"text":"可是這些他當然都有他原本的規劃可是之前其實相關單位也有提出在一些特殊的場域他其實不適合做孔蓋降埋那如果現在要全面化的孔蓋降埋我必須說會有相關的疑慮我認為必須要慎慎的考慮跟討論那我們還可以透過什麼樣的機制來確保一確保用路人的安全確保孔蓋降埋是合宜的然後到底有在哪些地方是可以真的這樣做的"},{"start":2632.495,"end":2638.518,"text":"我想相關單位的評估應該非常的重要好 以上謝謝主席好 謝謝我們陳培宜幹事長現在請書記長請國民黨的我們魯明哲委員"},{"start":2649.045,"end":2674.114,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想前面有這個很多法案是已經不需要協商的要協商的大概就是公路法第72條修正條文這個的部分那我們了解一下當然我們鄰居間委員幾位委員提案人我覺得他用心也是良苦因為對於用路人的一個角度用路人角度的話如果說你要設置管線或者人守口蓋"},{"start":2675.234,"end":2698.988,"text":"在任何的一條道路不管是穿越型車輛很快速的道路或者社區型緩慢的道路甚至有人經過事實上都如果沒有處理好不夠平整少則造成噪音多的話也會造成一些用路人的危害所以我看它整個的一個修法的條文最主要是希望你們施工"},{"start":2700.109,"end":2716.506,"text":"在平整度有一個具體的一個標準第二個呢如果沒有達標有相關的什麼相關的責任跟罰款那這個部分是剛剛講說管件單位有困難跟意見那待會我想聽一下謝謝"},{"start":2719.756,"end":2745.062,"text":"謝謝國民黨魯明哲委員現在請台灣民眾黨我們陳昭芝幹事長剛剛就是魯委員他提到的其實我對於這個民進黨有二十六委員提出來的這個修正案我們其實是非常認同的重點就是說國人期待是路平路平 生化都沒有確實回填造成的路平凹凸不平這個是我剛安全問題也有一些"},{"start":2746.747,"end":2755.849,"text":"形象的問題等等那又提到在暗遊當中特別提到我們大家大概每個都記憶猶新的103年高雄氣爆因為當時管線的機構他們的判斷原因就是管線機構施工不當又沒有適當的維護以至於發生這麼重大的公安災害"},{"start":2769.913,"end":2784.977,"text":"那後來發現就是說兩邊道路的主管機關跟管線機構是沒有橫向沒有跨向的這個跨合作的聯繫所以主管機關沒有辦法確實掌握路面下的管線情況下很容易造成救災不易當然剛剛陳委員一直在談說救災的時間這種緊迫的時間不過我想這個還是有很多其他的地方要先去做一個緊急站是另外一個"},{"start":2798.22,"end":2806.59,"text":"突發的這個事故所以這一條是爭列說明定這個施工機關有回覆挖掘路面平整的責任而且要求管線機關應該主動維護深挖路面去設施這樣的觀念跟觀點其實很難反駁"},{"start":2814.9,"end":2836.67,"text":"而且據我了解在委員會討論的時候好像大家也相關單位行政機關也沒有表達有困難所以今天就回過來這邊討論我想好好聽到底發生什麼事一個我們覺得非常公正一個非常需要趕快去做的修正案為什麼今天又會拉回來重新討論謝謝主席"},{"start":2841.023,"end":2868.098,"text":"謝謝我們陳昭之幹事長來我要特別因為這個我召委啦我跟明哲都在交通委員會過去交通委員會任何一個議案都跟老百姓有關的其實我們通過的這種案不管是罰款提高啊或者為了都是為了錄屏我要特別跟行政機關啊要特別跟你們抗議一下當初這個案子"},{"start":2869.383,"end":2881.616,"text":"在商討的過程當中各有關單位我都再度垂詢再度請你們表示意見甚至於提案人"},{"start":2883.154,"end":2902.367,"text":"林俊炫委員都還一直問你們各單位包括台電 台水什麼每一個一個問你們都說沒有問題但是他提案的內容也主要是你們如果這一段要做工程的當中以後你們再修改"},{"start":2903.248,"end":2921.078,"text":"就是要照這樣下去做為了老百姓行的安全是改也就是漸進式的只要做到工程就去做改進我記得很清楚大家都取得共識那當然啦 因為"},{"start":2922.287,"end":2951.587,"text":"或許因為你們也有考慮一些很麻煩自愛燃省的等等這些所以我還是特別請你們等一下在說明的時候你們自愛燃省的地方在哪邊我相信因為今天三黨的代表都講得非常之清楚其實這個我們也是在幫所有老百姓在把關這些交通安全的餘力等等這些修改"},{"start":2952.387,"end":2955.872,"text":"所以才會有互帶決議嘛互帶決議就不是馬上叫你們前審每一條路都做嘛就是當你們做到這裡的時候就要開始實施依照這個辦法"},{"start":2967.688,"end":2997.168,"text":"所以這個要特別提醒大家我還是希望大家取得一個共識我想你們也在替老百姓做事我們也在替老百姓監督我想我們都為老百姓所以我就是不是現在的時間就讓那個主管機關他們來表示一點自愛燃省的動作那是不是先請我們交通部我們林次長來說明一下好不好"},{"start":2998.369,"end":3019.412,"text":"謝謝主席還有各位委員首先先跟各位委員報告交通委員會通過的文字交通部跟公路局相關主管沒有問題我們可以處理那還是要謝謝各位委員提出這樣的修正案原來的文字可能是考慮到說管線單位在執行挖補或是修復的時候"},{"start":3019.992,"end":3042.002,"text":"理論上應該要照原來我們公路的設計標準或者任何行人或是車輛在時間車輛壓座以後那個地方會凹陷那所以我們原來文字我們認同也沒有問題那這次的提案其實是管線單位的困難所以我是不是建議各位委員先聽聽管線單位有什麼困難來現在管線單位就是來公路局"},{"start":3050.812,"end":3075.857,"text":"來林副局長主席各位委員公路局這邊也是路前的主管單位我們非常謝謝各位委員的協助針對這個法修的精神我們非常贊同所以我們不是執行我們是路前的管理單位那這個對這個修了以後對我們的交通安全是非常有幫助的那這個再次感謝各位委員謝謝好"},{"start":3083.129,"end":3108.077,"text":"謝謝林副局長接下來可能比較有意見的就是幾個管縣單位來 中油中油來中油的部分比較關心的是我們有緊急遮斷法的人口的部分緊急遮斷法關係到"},{"start":3111.434,"end":3137.067,"text":"緊急遮斷法關係到民生用氣跟用氣主要是用氣的部分如果說耽誤到緊急遮斷發生了緊急洩漏的時候我們一定要去緊急給它關斷減少洩漏量所以我們大概只有少量的人口的部分希望能夠保留然後但是我們也會做好相關的法律的規定大概是目前是這邊"},{"start":3139.13,"end":3147.517,"text":"你們有沒有什麼多大意見沒有 沒有接下來據我了解是我們台電公司來王總經理來你們比較有意見吧"},{"start":3159.125,"end":3178.247,"text":"主席 各位委員孔蓋下地這個大原則我想是全民的希望做到的所以台電在沒有下地的孔蓋這部分我們一直都在精進包括孔蓋面的粗糙增加摩擦力的這個部分還有施作圓形的施工法"},{"start":3178.907,"end":3193.281,"text":"讓周邊的 就是這個孔蓋不要直接與孔蓋跟柏油接觸而是孔蓋再加水泥再跟柏油建成式的這種做法等等我們就盡量把沒有下地的孔蓋的這個造成用路人的困擾這個部分"},{"start":3194.222,"end":3222.007,"text":"我們一直在技術上面來盡量克服我想這第一點先說明這是大家的共識我們也了解至於說孔蓋下地之後所會造成的問題就是純如剛才陳書記長所提到的最近的這兩個案例包括光復跟蘇澳蘇澳這一次我們只有短短的一戶因為地下室淹水所以我線路的電拉不出去"},{"start":3222.607,"end":3246.258,"text":"就是因為它沒淹水淹水之後我的開關沒辦法操作那我本來要改接那個線路讓後面的幾百戶用戶可以馬上有電但是因為就是孔蓋下地整個評估下來花的時間要幾十個小時這樣子的時間光一條線路要處理就多花了這個時間後來我們放棄了這個方案原因就是在於如果孔蓋下地所對搶修復旧的時間確實會非常的長"},{"start":3249.059,"end":3270.869,"text":"那為什麼台電很擔心這個條文通過以後會什麼後果呢主要是因為整個執行孔蓋下地這個的這個執法的單位呢有包含中央的還有縣市的鄉鎮的這些入權單位那幾千個人甚至上萬個人在執法那這條法律將定下去的話看起來目前是變成"},{"start":3271.98,"end":3293.953,"text":"原則下地 例外台不下地這種條文出去的時候在未來地方跟台電這種管線單位中間的爭執會非常的多那爭執非常多比如說我今天要做一條潰線要下地或者是因為故障我要提升那事實上我要提升的話可能一次提升就要30個人口"},{"start":3295.234,"end":3320.885,"text":"因為我現場有一百萬個人口一百萬個那我要提升的話光那個協調他們的管線單位很多都不願意讓我們一次提升三十個五十個他是一次只願意讓我提升三個五個那這種的常常都是在以往都遇到的爭執所以也就是說這個條文一通過之後未來我們現場執行的時候困擾會非常的大所以我們期望說台電跟其他管線單位我們盡量"},{"start":3322.825,"end":3339.25,"text":"讓這個孔蓋維持在路面然後盡量平整我想用這種方式來解決這個問題這是我們比較期望的一個方向以上 補充這個王總經理我特別要提醒你們那天一直在問你們你們都不表意見"},{"start":3340.495,"end":3368.861,"text":"那你現在就是這樣把民進黨好議題案的東西民進黨又把它還回就是因為你們一直私底下的人還跟我解釋不是你們有意見別人有意見我問來問去通通沒有意見就只有你們有意見那有意見當初是要把它修好了把它修好符合你們的需求跟老百姓"},{"start":3370.071,"end":3391.255,"text":"注意的 省的安全我想修法令是目的是這樣那現在這個部分我還是建議你們盡量提出你們希望怎麼做我們盡量來配合這個特別跟王董事長提醒一下好不好來 接下來我們那個台水公司來台水公司蔡處長中華電信沒有"},{"start":3405.078,"end":3433.605,"text":"主席還有各位委員那台水公司這邊報告那台水公司目前比較困難部分主要是因應消防救災的主要是台水公司報告台水公司的困難度主要是在消防救災的一些法類如果被下地的話那今天在那個消防救災的時候可能會來不及尋找那甚至像剛剛那個所提到就是說還要去"},{"start":3435.084,"end":3456.42,"text":"開啟它還有施工那時間會拉長影響消防救災那所以這次的條文裡面其實是有訂到就是說特殊需求的部分會由交通部協商直轄縣市政府跟相關管線單位定制那如同剛剛那個台電公司總經理所說的就是說到時候協商就是我們不知道這個協商的話可能"},{"start":3459.283,"end":3468.93,"text":"數十萬個孔蓋都要去協商這樣子的話的時間可能是對我們來講就是影響蠻大的就是大家耗日費時以上那個我們中華電信應該也有這種人孔蓋中華電信有沒有來沒有好那這個各單位都表示過意見了但是好"},{"start":3487.641,"end":3513.991,"text":"好 那個我們那個書記長陳書記長好 謝謝主席我非常感謝主席讓我們有時間好好說明那我們不是反悔啦是我們聽了更多意見之後其實是尤其經歷過這兩次花蓮跟光復花蓮光復跟蘇澳的災難之後發現下地這件事情有太多事情需要考慮那感謝剛剛台水也好中油台電都做了相關說明所以確實在你們的管線業務範圍裡面"},{"start":3515.552,"end":3541.613,"text":"有一些孔蓋他不能就直接做下降的動作那他必須考慮到你們的日常業務還有就是你們的業務都跟每一個人的民生有關所以我想後續有沒有機會再進行更多的討論就有待我想之後三檔我們再花時間討論不過還是要再次謝謝主席喔所以我們再次強調不是反悔是聽了更多的意見跟確保更多現場的聲音之後我們做出了這個倡議跟說明 謝謝好 那個請國民黨我們盧委員"},{"start":3544.54,"end":3565.83,"text":"好 謝謝主席就有兩個小問題第一個是林市長今天你是出公差嗎你就負責飛的跟遊的公路法你來是裡面都沒人都出國了是吧來代表交通部因為我們主管同仁都有公務這個因為這不是你分管的第二個是"},{"start":3566.929,"end":3594,"text":"我是建議 剛剛管縣單位的一些的建議事實上交通部說沒有問題確定沒有問題嗎因為特殊跟必要性要你們全國去做確認這麼多蓋子你們確定沒有問題嗎那我再覺得未來我覺得可以再協調了但是我是覺得是不是在協調過程中在72條裡面有些利益良善對民眾 用戶人很有幫助的我是覺得可以保留"},{"start":3594.48,"end":3613.212,"text":"那你們覺得孔蓋這個的部分下地的部分只有第五項那第五項拿掉不影響到這個修改條文的獨立性這也是就是孔蓋下地未來再說啦但是剩下的是包括你們現在要管線要去挖路這種挖的那個"},{"start":3614.153,"end":3634.87,"text":"有沒有回撲的平整跟孔蓋的部分跟柏油接觸點有沒有平整那這個部分有精確測量的一個標準跟相關的法則這個跟孔蓋是下地是另外一回事我覺得未來的時候也有可能把第五項拿掉剩下的部分留下來我覺得這個部分可以未來考慮 謝謝好 那個台灣民眾黨我們陳幹事長有沒有 有沒有再補充"},{"start":3642.453,"end":3664.128,"text":"那剛剛聽到這個管線單位他們有一些某些啦應該不是全面的有一些實務上的困難啦這個東西其實就是晚了嘛就當時應該是就你們又把一些特殊狀況也許是分類或是分別或是分級管理那我想大概既然進入協商我們"},{"start":3665.109,"end":3692.24,"text":"我們就是原來的期待是存在啦但是有實務上 確實實務上困難我覺得我們還是可以聽聽啦大家來再討論 好 謝謝好 那特別提醒我們行政單位你們如果有意見在我們交通委員會在審查的時候早一點提出來就不會有這個事所以你們有意見提出來其實立法院非常重視行政機關的意見的"},{"start":3693.84,"end":3723.4,"text":"所以我是覺得比較很納悶的就是說你們行政機關為什麼該講的不講不該講的才到處亂講所以會造成這樣我們交通委員會三黨裡面在審議算是一團和氣的是經過討論才這樣把我們交通委員把它搞成這樣實在有時候我要代表我們交通委員會跟你們行政機關要抗議一下"},{"start":3723.92,"end":3734.822,"text":"真的以後這個下不為例不要這樣我們交通委員會每一個案子很少在政黨協商的那我也希望你們希望怎麼樣趕快提出來給"},{"start":3737.813,"end":3758.345,"text":"民進黨來做一個到時候看看怎麼樣來處理因為我們大家都為老百姓你們也是為老百姓我們也是為老百姓都不是為任何政黨也任何個人完全不是好不好那因為今天大家都已經那個時間的關係我們是不是就把這個案子"},{"start":3759.085,"end":3787.814,"text":"其他的沒有意見然後72條這個部分我們就保留沒有辦法取得共識保留送宴會來處理各黨代表有沒有意見就保留送宴會那現在還有針對通過的一個附帶結議進行來討論是維持原內容或修正的內容那是不是因為已經保留了"},{"start":3789.975,"end":3815.972,"text":"連這個附帶結議啊我們也一併把它保留一併保留也送宴會這樣好不好好現在各黨有沒有意見好那沒有意見的話我們這個第一個協商的結論協商的結論第72條保留送宴會處理審查通過的附帶結議一項也保留送宴會來處理"},{"start":3818.735,"end":3833.255,"text":"照審查會審查結果通過這樣好不好各黨有沒有意見好沒有意見的話我們就上會謝謝謝謝行政機關謝謝三黨的代表謝謝主席謝謝各位委員"},{"start":3841.811,"end":3842.793,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}