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石部長他在指出啊"},{"start":99.005,"end":121.211,"text":"下游的游品和上游的原油檢驗存在落差同樣的事情不只一樁但是因此啊衛福部懷疑到中聯油指的檢體造假第一時間才不公佈所以才會擴大到4到6月的產品全數預防性下降在對應11日我們看到台中地院裁定中聯油總經理"},{"start":123.034,"end":135.329,"text":"認罪交保的理由是行使業務上登載不實的文書罪顯然本案已經進入到真審的一個階段我就尚未公開的資訊不做任何的質詢待願檢"},{"start":138.733,"end":157.148,"text":"調以及貴部來做調查偵查告一段落以後我們也希望政府應該向國人來說明那我想徐主任我們在這邊也要應該感謝檢調在第一時間跟衛福部來配合才能挖掘最底層我們現在才知道的一些黑暗資料"},{"start":157.848,"end":183.66,"text":"就如同食藥署在前身食藥局的時候99年到100年跟我們的調查局一起合作才能夠破獲肅起食品摻雜威爾岡的偽藥案件這也是當時食藥辦成立的一個目的作為跨部會的協調工作但是我們現在來看到幾個報刊雜誌食藥署食品組"},{"start":185.29,"end":199.468,"text":"主長許超凱指出這類食用油所製的黃豆業者都是採河川採購考量黃豆季節性以及業者會同時採購美國巴西"},{"start":202.432,"end":229.104,"text":"以及目前國內多數的煉油廠製成原料驗收都是從粗榨的毛油來做檢驗以及後續的脫色、脫臭過程均做得比中煉油脂還要好可以研判將這個一律的致癌物它的標準下降至限量的一個標準下我們又看到9日江志剛又說台糖5、6月向福茂"},{"start":230.721,"end":254.619,"text":"購入了中聯油脂出炸的油品至自家的出炸油品來混合精煉所以製成了台塘大豆沙拉油以及烤酥油兩品項我們看到台塘現在也有預防性的一個下架作為但11日我們又看到呢石崇良表示10月8日以後石耀署至我們三家煉油廠"},{"start":255.899,"end":261.695,"text":"大同義台塘常輝實業進行駐場我想問一下喔林次"},{"start":264.58,"end":291.527,"text":"10月8日食藥署前往7月8日我們至三家煉油廠大同義台糖常輝是否由於檢調來做配合偵查現階段還有沒有跟他們其他時段共同使用黃豆原料與中聯油是使用同一批傳的"},{"start":293.257,"end":307.039,"text":"其他沒有都完全沒有目前這兩批就是目前的話我們在預防性下架這個部分就是跟中聯有關的這兩批該抽驗30件的檢體化驗的報告出爐了嗎是不是應該及時公告"},{"start":308.171,"end":335.66,"text":"沒有全部出來那目前已經出來的15件包含大統一常輝這邊還沒好我們希望報告出爐要及時公告我們跟委員報告我們這邊因為持續都在驗所以我們有新的報告我們都會再公布我想自來獨有磁藥組第一時間定義戰犯是巴西進口含水率過高的黃豆然後安排學者說是巴西黃豆在原產地採收了後"},{"start":336.64,"end":363.307,"text":"乾燥蒸熏的過程恐出現熱損傷而產生了BAP的一個問題然而從今年1到5月台灣從巴西進口的黃豆量總量達到了59.9萬噸該批大豆除了供應中聯油脂還有可能三家的其他煉油廠大同義台糖常會失業是否有少量供應其他"},{"start":364.338,"end":383.425,"text":"做醬油豆漿豆類製品的工廠畢竟沙拉油在煉製過程BAP的含量下降80%以上但其他豆類製品直接粉碎加工使用我們都很想知道市長有沒有其他的漏網之魚醬油豆乾"},{"start":385.118,"end":412.081,"text":"類製品這個是製程不同那剛剛提到我知道但是同一批去使用的話我們都會擔憂對跟我們報告其實因為它的黃豆是因為它的這個剛剛講的它可能水分等等的問題所以它在製油的過程中我們還有另外一個剛剛提到HACCP要處理就是油廠它在製造的時候因為它的來源可能水分不同的關係它要有它的這個我們講HACCP好的瓶管每個節點要去做瓶管我知道剛剛多人會擔心嘛"},{"start":413.302,"end":442.854,"text":"您提到的是黃豆來源的製品對不對同一批黃豆來源的製品這個部分我們會另外後續所以我要提醒嘛就是說現在國人會擔憂同一批的黃豆如果有問題它做成醬油或者是加工類的製成不同我知道製成不同但是我們還是鼓勵衛福部食藥署應該去抽查檢驗嘛去了解雖然製成不同但同一批的黃豆會不會有相關的製成食品來讓國人吃下肚"},{"start":443.174,"end":471.52,"text":"有問題我覺得這樣好不好跟這些黃豆同一批黃豆他用同樣跟這個油一樣製成的我們全面來做一個跟您做一個報告這樣好不好所以你可以同意去做檢驗嗎我們確認一下是不是同一批黃豆因為通常黃豆來源不好我是具體的建議同一批黃豆有不同的製品醬油都應該去檢驗看看擴大去檢驗我了解你說的製程不同它所造成的問題可能不盡相同但是"},{"start":472.6,"end":498.619,"text":"擴大檢驗避免食安嘛好不好那就是您所說的就是跟這一批黃豆有關的我們全面清查一下好不好我想巴西黃豆有問題啦那美國黃豆是否也有問題我們也應該同樣的去了解一下如果不是巴西黃豆的問題那我想對於貿易果斷的臆測是否對貿易夥伴有不盡之處還是要謹慎處理這個部分我只是提醒而已但是"},{"start":498.959,"end":518.742,"text":"美國黃豆我們也是希望最高的品質就是全面稽查不要有掛一漏萬這個委員我們要再強調一下就是我們其實現在辦專家為什麼我們讓那個中聯我們還沒有讓他能夠復工就是我們對於他在製造過程應該要做品管的節點他還沒有辦法說服我們他有好的品管"},{"start":519.062,"end":539.63,"text":"好 這個部分麻煩我提醒一下那現在我們看到有教授在指出說BAP超標的案例其實非常罕見一般從油脂精煉的角度來看即便是毛油BAP的含量偏高脫膠 脫酸 脫澀 脫臭完整的精煉程序以後理論上是可以把濃度下降"},{"start":540.49,"end":557.038,"text":"又說黃豆原料精萃取精煉就能把不是山酸甘油脂的部分拿掉而BAP就是不是山酸甘油脂它就是這個部分的成分理論上可以程序降低我要請問一下徐主任現在大豆自由出問題"},{"start":558.479,"end":570.991,"text":"那大豆破呢大豆破跑去哪了有沒有製成飼料有沒有追蹤銷賣收回這個全世界對於飼料的BAP的管理都沒有"},{"start":572.583,"end":589.645,"text":"訂定這個標準所以現在會認為進入飼料供應鏈動物的飼養經濟動物上面是沒有問題全世界沒有規範但是我現在提出一個問題我也請國人聽聽看是有問題的可能性這個BAP做成飼料"},{"start":590.726,"end":617.371,"text":"供這些飼養動物來食用那我們再來吃這些飼養的動物這個部分我們有疑慮嘛所以我認為這個部分依照法規黃豆有問題我們不管後面加工就是不可以用飼料管理法就規定飼料不可以使用變質的原料目前大豆破的流向為何食安辦有沒有掌握"},{"start":618.251,"end":635.664,"text":"大豆粕大部分是進入飼料供應鏈那這一批有問題的黃豆所製成的大豆粕現在也是一樣做成飼料嘛那做成飼養動物的時候我們就會懷疑嘛雖然世界沒有定義"},{"start":636.505,"end":651.76,"text":"但是我們會不會有疑慮謝謝委員我補充一下因為這些黃豆它做成油那這個本田皮它是融在油裡所以它在油的過程現在我們知道沙拉油這個過程它被融出來了理論上如果照學理上來講它是不會在豆粕那一邊"},{"start":652.281,"end":666.542,"text":"好 我希望你們的推斷是對的啦但是我還是要再次的提醒大拓破同一批黃豆他所製成的是不是有疑慮這個部分你們應該加強一下因為我們現階段對於整個民進黨的食安五環"},{"start":667.423,"end":689.752,"text":"已經徹底破功我們感到非常非常的擔憂我還是要針對這個部分建議衛福部啊針對壟斷性的大宗代工廠進行提高頻率的無預警的製程抽驗來列入不定期的抽查這個部分還要拜託食安辦要完全負責協調統籌跨部會的食品管理作為"},{"start":690.612,"end":705.365,"text":"然後來做這個形式的偵查配合調查局配合檢調這部分要提醒一下好 包養員就是這個地方的抽查我們會跟地方衛生局一起合作因為這個主要抽查是地方衛生局這個我還是要提醒你們要有一個角色第二個我要再問教育部"},{"start":706.326,"end":735.598,"text":"部長問直接的說這起自癌毒友進入到校園不是食安的問題是教育主管機關教育部嚴重失職的一個問題事情早在4月就發現但到現在已經擴及20個縣市623所學校258所幼兒園結果教育部第一反應是地方政府第一線落實查核請問中央主管機關的角色根本就是把監管失能全部甩脫交給我們第一線跟地方政府"},{"start":736.238,"end":762.711,"text":"我們是沒有辦法接受的我們現在來講教育部一直在講滾動式盤點或許有疑慮就先下架的預防措施以學生健康為唯一的標準這句話聽起來很好聽啊事實上也是這樣啊我們能夠做的就是這樣嗎以學生健康為唯一標準那請你告訴國人這幾個月教育部做了哪一件事情對得起這句話你該不會要說有疑慮就先下架吧"},{"start":763.786,"end":785.9,"text":"那我問你,有疑慮就先下架,衛福部說20%含量的可以繼續留存在貨架上,你能不能接受?我問你嘛,你說有疑慮就先下架,衛福部說20%含量的可以留在貨架上,你能不能接受?你先回答我,你能不能接受?"},{"start":786.76,"end":800.673,"text":"我們所有的下架規準全部依據食藥署的一個公佈然後22個地方縣市教育技術馬上所以你剛剛說有餘地就下架嘛你就是在打點衛福部嘛衛福部說20%含量的時候不用下架啊"},{"start":802.014,"end":830.186,"text":"來教育部我們現在場面化大家這樣子講但是重點的作為呢政府公布了問題產品的名單喔只是風險揭露第一步喔真正關鍵是什麼我們現在攝入致癌物質的學生教育部下一步作為要怎麼樣負責你告訴我我想如果有家長有餘力我們會請學校地方建設政府來協助學校把名單不要家長有餘力嘛全國國人一定都有餘力嘛我現在目前家長最關心的不是怎麼退貨"},{"start":831.65,"end":842.042,"text":"他們不是要那個小錢欸他們現在關心的是孩子的健康風險如何評估嘛那家長要不要協助他們長期追蹤嘛你們有沒有醫療的協助諮商窗口後線照顧我們學生嘛好 待會我讓你說明"},{"start":848.129,"end":862.543,"text":"所以我今天要提出具體的完整方案跟配套我希望教育部要講清楚說明白請教育部儘速提出健康照護還有制度改革的一個方案讓食安防線不會停留在事件發生後的補救"},{"start":863.684,"end":884.341,"text":"還有所謂我們要建立所謂的預防追溯應變照護四大機制請說明謝謝委員提醒事實上這一定是中央跟地方要一起合作的我們所有的營養午餐每天所有的食材全部公開透明登錄在這個食材上所以當七月一號一一公佈食藥主義公佈的時候我們已經"},{"start":886.442,"end":909.792,"text":"22個地方縣市全部在平台裡面掃貨一次才發現有1380個學校用到中聯所提供的這三家的油品然後接著我們請22個地方縣市教育局處馬上學校裡面根據那個品項逐一的來做下架的一個我想我們教育部在這個部分跟地方是後續"},{"start":911.913,"end":931.311,"text":"剛才委員所提我們事實上也在思考如果學生有因為這兩個月的時間覺得身體不適的話家長是不是學校建立一個機制讓怎麼樣來做一個比較一個長期的我相信孩子不會現在感受到不是啦我希望你針對623所學校258所幼兒園能夠針對他們來做一個長期的我們中央跟地方來合作"},{"start":937.877,"end":955.429,"text":"這個部分我希望你具體會後提供書面資料你們要怎麼具體的來做這個相關的機制給我我們來跟地方來看怎麼樣來研議有一個更好的一個再來大專院校大專院校我想請問他們雖然不是營養午餐的系統但是我們有沒有去關心也有一些餐廳對嘛"},{"start":957.29,"end":980.243,"text":"所以大專院校也有可能因為他周邊的飲食的問題所以所造成有可能他們涉入到這些問題之來對不起學校沒有辦法所有的社區每一家餐廳所以我說希望能夠關注一下嘛大學裡邊的餐廳我們全部有追蹤但是大學外的周邊當然是可能仰賴衛福部嘛去做抽查嘛但是我希望現在還是要提醒大專院校應該要去了解一下"},{"start":986.481,"end":997.749,"text":"大專院校第一你可以承諾大專院校內的餐廳但是是不是也要了解一下大專院校外請大專院校好好關心這件事學生的安全 健康"},{"start":1005.194,"end":1034.276,"text":"我跟委員的心情是一樣的我們一定要極力來維護我們要掌握啦反正大專院校我們也充分掌握國高中甚至是幼兒園這部分都是特別要注意的跟委員報告就這件事情我們當然不捨有一些不良廠商做了這樣一個壞的示範但是國教署在第一線跟地方政府的合作應該可以肯定好我只是要提醒你大學生也是學生這個部分一定要特別注意當然接下來"},{"start":1035.377,"end":1057.518,"text":"我要有請現在所有的官員回到座位上謝謝有請主席幫我邀請我們信義國小教師會常務理事唐一國先生請我們常理事上台部長"},{"start":1059.246,"end":1086.924,"text":"我們依據我們現在立法院委員的手冊我們可以邀請社會的相關人士來委員會來跟大家分享今天我要邀請第一線的教師來跟大家報告來跟大家講第一線的困境第一線的為難也希望部長能夠好好的聽一下老師他們現在的困境他們到底是怎麼樣在第一線奮戰有請"},{"start":1094.315,"end":1106.309,"text":"主席各位委員各位長官現場的媒體先生小姐大家好感謝委員邀請我來分享教育現場的第一線的真實情況"},{"start":1108.675,"end":1130.21,"text":"我是一名現職的老師 國小老師 年資將近30年但今天我並不是來為教師爭取權益的我是來替學生請命 替教育請命因為教育我失敗 最後受害的不是老師 而是整個國家的下一代"},{"start":1131.411,"end":1149.546,"text":"我先分享兩個真實的案例第一個十年前我當導師的時候我有一個學生國小畢業畢業的時候他告訴我說老師我長大之後也要像你一樣當一個國小老師那我請他努力"},{"start":1150.731,"end":1178.61,"text":"然後經過了三年的國中 三年的高中他真的考上了教育大學那再經過四年的鍛煉他去年進入了教育實習的階段可是就在實習沒有多久他因為提醒一個上課講話比較大聲的一個女學生那個女學生抬起來就對他說看三小"},{"start":1181.601,"end":1199.917,"text":"沒有錯他就說了這三個字我們大家都知道這三個字有多麼的粗魯無力而且還是學生對老師說的他認住了幾秒鐘之後呢他就默默的離開那間教室然後請假回家"},{"start":1201.593,"end":1228.212,"text":"整理思绪第三天回来学校去教育处办理中止实习他不当老师了十年的教师梦当场梦碎他说他不希望未来三十年还在这样的教育环境下工作我想这会不会是现在教师荒的可能原因之一"},{"start":1229.673,"end":1251.941,"text":"那麼第二個故事第二個案例有一位老師在上課的時候用電子黑板就是手滑式觸控式的那種那可能有一點接觸不良第一時間沒有滑出正確的畫面那有一個小男生立刻就說你是幹什麼吃的也是對老師這樣子說"},{"start":1255.29,"end":1281.676,"text":"各位 我们真正要问的是为什么现在越来越多的孩子他会这样子的对待老师呢教室其实它就是一个缩小版的社会各种孩子都有而孩子最容易模仿的就是他的图彩当少数学生可以修入老师而没有明确界限的时候其他孩子就会跟风模仿"},{"start":1282.915,"end":1291.361,"text":"老師原本準備了一場精彩的課卻因為少數學生的干擾而不得不中斷真正受傷的"},{"start":1293.28,"end":1319.791,"text":"其实不是老师其实也不是那些呛瞎的学生真正受伤的是什么是全班二十几个认真学习的孩子今天被浪费的也不是一个老师的上课时间而是一整个班级的学习时间所以我要问了那些守规矩愿意学习的孩子他们的受教权又在哪呢"},{"start":1322.402,"end":1345.211,"text":"我再分享一个案例有关校师会议为什么会有防御式教学有位家长他的教学理念比较开放他常常帮女儿请三天的年假全家出去做家庭式的教学这很好这没有问题那回来之后是不是还要把学校的功课给补上呢"},{"start":1346.445,"end":1366.082,"text":"但是她沒有那老師依照班規將她的號碼只要班上沒有繳交作業整齊的號碼她就會被記在班上記在黑板上那等你繳交完了之後自己就可以上去把它擦掉其實全國很多班級都是這麼處理的這沒有問題但是這個女生因為"},{"start":1367.577,"end":1388.03,"text":"佼佼的東西可能太多了他沒有及時補完於是過了幾天之後黑板上只剩他的名字只剩他的號碼那他就覺得心裡不舒服跟他媽媽反應媽媽就跟老師溝通然後說是不是可以擦掉老師就說可以請他補教完就可以擦掉"},{"start":1389.298,"end":1411.838,"text":"那這樣一個堅持班規堅持教學理念的老師呢居然就被媽媽指控為霸凌她的孩子這荒謬嗎一個老師請學生繳交作業居然可以成為霸凌的理由但是更荒謬的在後面"},{"start":1413.823,"end":1431.38,"text":"他告到了學校校師會議還接受了這個老師還被送進校師會議做調查那所以最後當然沒有解聘停聘不續聘那些問題但是他還是強迫被接受兩個月的輔導"},{"start":1433.735,"end":1443.992,"text":"那在那裡面當然就是身心煎熬受盡了委屈那從那時候很多老師就開始進行所謂的防禦式教學"},{"start":1445.578,"end":1468.887,"text":"不是不想教不是不想管教而是不敢管教不是不願意要求而是不敢要求因為沒有人知道下一個被送進校士會議的人會不會是自己這就是教育現場的現況我想請大家注意的是老師他只是想保護自己但真正失去的是孩子的教育品質"},{"start":1470.649,"end":1497.778,"text":"如果老師因為害怕而不敢管教失去受教權的就是大多數安靜努力守規矩的學生教育它從來就不只是教知識而已它更是教尊重責任規矩與是非那如果老師連維持秩序連繳交作業的要求都要擔心被調查那孩子到底要向誰學習呢"},{"start":1500.063,"end":1513.135,"text":"我記得前幾個月有個團體上街教師團體上街表達訴求那我們教育部長回應我記得很清楚部長說請他們回學校把學生給教好"},{"start":1514.434,"end":1539.295,"text":"那我在這裡要向部長報告我們每個老師真的都願意拿出最大的能力把學生教好但是老師們得到的支持和他們所被承擔的責任完全是不成比例的政策沒有支持認真的老師政策沒有支持認真的孩子"},{"start":1540.506,"end":1566.212,"text":"德國教育學家福貝爾的名言他說教育無他為愛與榜樣而已那我認為教育它不只是在教室近距離學生跟老師之間聽到摸到看到才叫做教育才叫做模範政府官員的一眼一行透過媒體也都是孩子們學習的榜樣"},{"start":1567.867,"end":1595.962,"text":"我們今天呼籲的不是讓教師擁有什麼特權而是希望制度真正保護大多數孩子的受教權最後我懇請各位正視基層教師的吶喊正視基層教師教育的困境不要讓認真的老師寒心不要讓認真的孩子失望"},{"start":1596.997,"end":1624.816,"text":"因此我誠懇建議校試會議是否能夠盡快暫停試用全面檢討之後該修就修 該廢就廢讓制度真正回到保障學生社教權的初衷我的報告到此 謝謝大家好 有請主席 請唐老師回去那我們請部長請那個唐老師回座 那有請部長"},{"start":1631.155,"end":1635.241,"text":"部長 最近有一則新聞國中生遲到被罰抄課文"},{"start":1636.328,"end":1661.183,"text":"提國培 球場140萬 你知道這件事嗎我知道 我看到了我想部長我們一直在想家庭教育跟學校教育差別到底在哪裡我認為學校教育在於培養人格的一個場所我們在學校端也要盡可能的將它教好也希望它除了社會能夠有所發展但有沒有想過你覺得學生畢業以後就不關教育部的問題嗎"},{"start":1661.963,"end":1682.859,"text":"他是內政部法務部勞動部衛福部的事嗎我想這個部分難道就跟教育部沒有任何關係嗎在今天的書面報告我們指出區分出缺席管理獎懲是為了避免同一行為重複處理若無法使用記警告明確的懲處手段僅能提醒"},{"start":1685.042,"end":1701.099,"text":"勸導書面自省等輔導措施往往面臨輔導成效不彰學生無所畏懼的窘境剛剛我們看到唐老師也提到第一線看到孩子這麼直接在言語上我們要問"},{"start":1702.472,"end":1717.571,"text":"教育部如果今天提醒勸導學生一個不喜歡聽說老師言語羞辱他檢舉老師最終面對校事會議的壓力怎麼辦書面自洗學生拒絕怎麼辦有沒有解方"},{"start":1718.971,"end":1745.8,"text":"各位報告剛才這位老師的一個分享我想我們的想法都一樣的確保學生的受教權然後尊重老師的專業守護老師的一個專業教學我想我們的想法我們現在所有的法條規範我們目標都是一致的那剛才所提的我先回委員幹所關心的那個案例我也非常感謝法院已經判決這一個"},{"start":1747.361,"end":1768.269,"text":"學生跟家長是敗訴的沒有錯那第二個但是過程他們是第二個我也要跟委員報告還有這位老師我們校事法裡面我們怎麼樣去處理不適任教師本來就是依據教事法裡面來訂定的那當然他有他的一個背景你不適任教師還是要有一定的處理機制沒有問題我們現在所以我們感謝委員的支持今年1月12號裡面"},{"start":1773.971,"end":1790.48,"text":"我們把過去造成老師的恐慌無謂的干擾這裡邊降到最低剛才也跟大會院報告過我們1月份委員所支持的這一個新的辦法這一個分流包含我們這一個"},{"start":1791.46,"end":1819.547,"text":"老師主任平時怎麼樣去做好親師溝通協助老師有更大的支持力量這些已經數據告訴我們直接降了50%所以我要談的是說第一線無感我先麻煩你針對我回應我先問你如果書面自省學生拒絕如果他提醒勸導的時候學生不喜歡聽直接說老師言語羞辱他去檢舉老師這方面有沒有"},{"start":1819.767,"end":1840.938,"text":"我想這一個部分就是我們第一條校長應該要承擔我們在分流裡邊這裡邊我們勿安勿重嘛有教師代表有教長代表有社會公正人士校長主持所以這一個部分就是我們希望在第一階段裡邊就能夠講清楚能夠分流我今天聽出來你還是要想想"},{"start":1841.798,"end":1862.194,"text":"如果今天書面的提醒請他自行勸導學生不喜歡不願意配合我們要怎麼辦我們不可能強迫他來部長你說對於長期出學異常你勸不聽的占不得嘉義城主的監獄我們學校所能採取的是特殊管教措施"},{"start":1862.975,"end":1876.076,"text":"如带回管教规划参加高关怀课程心理辅导社会服务还有其他的私性教育这个执行的门槛还有实际的成效为何教育部有没有具体的统计数据"},{"start":1877.301,"end":1892.868,"text":"我想這個會後我們可以跟委員提供一個書面我相信這些東西具體的數據讓國人都擔憂讓教學現場都覺得可能沒有辦法讓我們能夠有更具體的教育現況希望未來實施"},{"start":1894.188,"end":1900.717,"text":"教學它是一個專業的工作那你說現在要特殊管教措施難道就不會給我們的孩子貼標籤嗎你們在說一人只貼標籤我想這學生學校是用來輔導措施不會貼標籤嗎"},{"start":1912.248,"end":1937.905,"text":"難道不會貼標籤嗎標籤的話基本上從學校的立場我們應該把它降到最低如果未有明顯改善初學型的情形那再不得已不能夠加以懲處的規範學校到底能做什麼我們今天就是要探討這個問題好 我就想想這陣子為什麼大家所有家長全部爆炸初學型 掛課 遲到 就有一個高中學生去因為"},{"start":1939.113,"end":1946.703,"text":"缺課了然後學校寄了警告然後我知道不能同一行為是所以我們兩次的處罰所以你們開始規範這個這樣子的事情嗎好我們不是應該是說在那個時刻我們立法院的"},{"start":1954.612,"end":1957.093,"text":"那我們該怎麼辦有些學生就不在乎他現在的所謂上場任何的教學他不在乎那我們要怎麼想讓其他越受教的好學生"},{"start":1983.542,"end":1991.527,"text":"我們又要不得懲處又要維持繼續學校要怎麼做嗎一方面對學生負責避免日後又被批評放任全科啊而且這裡邊我們也這明文是不乏的"},{"start":1999.502,"end":2015.842,"text":"部長我沒有要你跟我辯論你辯贏我也沒有用我現在就問你現在現在的狀況我們又要不得懲處又要維護秩序我們到底要怎麼樣學校才可以好好的去做我們又怕被批評為放任缺課這樣的制度設計下"},{"start":2017.023,"end":2043.373,"text":"我們教育部認為學校如何實際做到報告中所說的兼顧學生權益保障又支持教師輔導管教需求部長你教大家在更一個現實的問題未來發生學生長期缺課或者在學校校園內外發生傷害的時候社會輿論第一個追究一定是學校為什麼沒有及早介入為什麼沒有採取更積極的管理措施"},{"start":2044.153,"end":2071.013,"text":"所以今天我們在講清水高級中學發生的這個憾事我們都不捨今天楊爸爸在現場我們對於這些長期有問題的孩子我們要怎麼樣實施管教避免日後造成更大的問題部長出了事以後教育部公開第一線替老師背書說他們依法行事還是要回頭再檢討學校機制不夠完備"},{"start":2072.054,"end":2097.861,"text":"報告中我們看到高關懷課程對於高關懷的違規情形重大的學生經學校相關會議一決後以抽離式進行課程編班如學生問題類型不同以彈性分組教學模式安排課程那請問一下部長面臨龐大的拒學拒絕學習喔還有情緒的困擾需求現行的資源足夠嗎我最後要問一句現在的學生不尊重時間"},{"start":2099.321,"end":2115.866,"text":"不敬老師日後造成社會問題會由整個社會一同承擔我們希望部長好好想一下今天為什麼我會辦這個報告不只是家長不只是老師所有的委員大家都很關心也希望你能夠好好的檢討這些政策帶來的問題學生團體老師還有地方縣市教育局處來"},{"start":2122.228,"end":2142.728,"text":"整個來這個看怎麼樣有一個更與時俱進的一個這樣一個管教方法我想我們一定是支持老師的這無庸置疑我今天不只是用委員的身份我是用家長的身份在擔憂在跟你做溝通我希望你們真的好好想一想我同意老師現在面臨的挑戰確實是比以前大那我們一起來努力謝謝謝謝部長"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:14.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:21.465000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請教育部部長、衛福部林靜儀政次還有食安辦主任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:22.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:25.327000+08:00","text":"請教育部部長、林靜儀政次還有食安辦主任。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:28.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:28.969000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:29.769000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:32.790000+08:00","text":"部長好，政次好，主任好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:33.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:42.455000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下衛福部，想請問一下政次，像行政院召開行政院院會跟各個縣市開會的時候，你會在嗎？","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:43.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:45.472000+08:00","text":"不一定，通常是部長出席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:45.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:55:56.379000+08:00","text":"好，在9日石部長說行政院院會中臺中副市長問什麼時候這些油品可以上架，媒體就去詢問黃副市長：你有說過嗎？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:55:56.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:56:02.003000+08:00","text":"黃副市長說：我只有建議更嚴格的風險管控還有源頭的處理、全面下架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:56:02.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:56:12.593000+08:00","text":"那我們看到衛福部在會後竟然補充說明：臺中市沒有說何時上架，只有說全面下架的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:56:12.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:56:20.121000+08:00","text":"這是在大街抹黑、在小巷澄清，部長有沒有跟你說過這個部分？沒有。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:56:21.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:56:46.203000+08:00","text":"我想麻煩你幫忙轉達一下，請部長在做所有的事實陳述的時候還是要特別注意，不要有任何抹黑的狀況，因為我想現階段到底什麼是真、什麼是假，我們更注重官員在備詢時的一些解說還有在記者會所提供的一些內容參據，這些都會讓我們民眾能夠更了解現況。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:56:46.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:57:05.469000+08:00","text":"我們看到12日石部長指出下游的油品和上游的原油檢驗存在落差，同樣的事情不只一樁，因此衛福部懷疑中聯油脂的檢體造假，在第一時間才不公布，所以才會擴大到4到6月的產品全數預防性下架。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:57:07.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:57:35.218000+08:00","text":"再對應11日臺中地院認為中聯油脂總經理涉行使業務上登載不實文書罪，因為已認罪而裁定交保，顯然本案已經進入偵審的階段，我就尚未公開的資訊不做任何的質詢，待院、檢、調以及貴部的調查、偵查告一段落以後，我們也希望政府向國人說明。","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:57:36.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:58:07.037000+08:00","text":"許主任，我們在這邊也應該要感謝檢調在第一時間跟衛福部來配合，才能挖掘最底層、我們現在才知道的一些黑暗資料，就如同食藥署的前身食藥局在99年到100年跟調查局一起合作，才能夠破獲數起食品摻雜威而剛的偽藥案件，這也是當時食安辦成立的目的，就是為了要做跨部會的協調工作。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:58:07.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:58:29.448000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在看到幾個報刊雜誌報導的內容，食藥署食品組組長許朝凱指出，這類供食用油煉製的黃豆，業者多採「合船採購」，考量黃豆產季季節性，有些業者會同時採購美國、巴西黃豆。","quality":0.76},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:58:32.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:58:53.561000+08:00","text":"目前國內多數煉油廠從製成、原料品驗收，至初榨「毛油」檢驗及後續脫色、脫臭過程，均做得比中聯油脂公司還要好，研判可將疑慮致癌物質標準降至限量標準以下。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:58:54.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:59:17.234000+08:00","text":"我們又看到9日姜至剛說台糖五、六月向福懋油脂購入中聯初榨油品，與自家初榨油品混合精煉，製成台糖大豆沙拉油、烤酥油兩品項，我們看到台糖現在也有預防性的下架作為。","quality":0.764},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:59:18.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:59:29.850000+08:00","text":"我們又看到石崇良在11日表示，10月8日以後食藥署至大統益、台糖、長輝事業三家煉油廠進行駐廠。","quality":0.632},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:59:29.850000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:59:40.161000+08:00","text":"我想問一下林次，10月8日食藥署前往……7月8日。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:59:40.161000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T09:59:41.262000+08:00","text":"對不起，是7月8日。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:59:41.262000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T09:59:48.624000+08:00","text":"食藥署至大統益、台糖、長輝三家煉油廠進行駐廠，是否由於檢調來做配合偵查？","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T09:59:50.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:01.507000+08:00","text":"現階段還有沒有跟他們在其他時段共同使用黃豆原料，與中聯油是使用同一批船的黃豆？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:03.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:03.698000+08:00","text":"其他沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:04.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:05.060000+08:00","text":"都完全沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:05.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:10.549000+08:00","text":"目前我們預防性下架的部分就是跟中聯有關的這兩批。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:11.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:15.998000+08:00","text":"該抽驗30件檢體的化驗報告出爐了嗎？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:15.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:17.019000+08:00","text":"是不是應該及時公告？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:18.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:25.453000+08:00","text":"沒有全部出來，目前已經出來15件，包含大統益、長輝還沒，台糖的出來了。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:26.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:29.034000+08:00","text":"我們希望報告出爐要及時公告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:29.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:00:34.256000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為我們這邊持續在驗，所以我們有新的報告都會再公布。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:00:36.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:01:19.360000+08:00","text":"關於致癌毒油，食藥署第一時間定義戰犯是巴西進口含水率過高的黃豆，學者研判是巴西黃豆在原產地採收後乾燥、蒸燻的過程，恐出現熱損傷，而產生BaP的問題，然而從今年1到5月，臺灣從巴西進口的黃豆量總量達到59.9萬噸，該批大豆除了供應中聯油脂，還有三家煉油廠包含大統益、台糖、長輝事業，是否有少量供應其他製作醬油、豆漿、豆類製品的工廠？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:01:19.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:01:35.118000+08:00","text":"畢竟沙拉油在煉製過程BaP含量會下降80%以上，但其他豆類製品是直接粉碎加工使用，次長，我們都很想知道有沒有其他的漏網之魚，如醬油及豆類製品？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:01:35.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:01:38.041000+08:00","text":"委員，第一個是製程不同，剛剛提到……","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:01:38.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:01:41.324000+08:00","text":"我知道，但是如果使用到同一批的話，我們都會擔憂。","quality":0.762},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:01:41.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:01.240000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，黃豆可能因為剛剛講的水分等問題，所以在製油過程中，我們還有剛剛提到的HACCP要處理，油廠在製造的時候，因為它的來源可能水分不同的關係，它要有符合HACCP好的品管，每個節點都要做好品管……","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:01.541000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:05.363000+08:00","text":"我知道，但國人會擔心，畢竟是同一批黃豆來源的製品……","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:07.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:10.045000+08:00","text":"你剛剛提到的是黃豆來源的製品，這個部分我們會另外後續……","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:10.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:17.768000+08:00","text":"所以我要提醒的是，現在國人會擔憂同一批黃豆如果有問題，被作成醬油或者是加工類食品……","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:17.768000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:19.188000+08:00","text":"製程不同，所以不會有這個……","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:19.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:33.414000+08:00","text":"我知道製程不同，但是我們還是鼓勵衛福部食藥署應該去抽查檢驗了解，雖然製程不同，但是同一批黃豆會不會有相關的製程食品讓國人吃下肚，有問題……","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:36.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:42.296000+08:00","text":"委員，同一批黃豆用跟這個油一樣製程的，我們全面跟你做報告，這樣好不好？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:42.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:44.576000+08:00","text":"所以你可以同意去做檢驗嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:44.576000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:02:47.697000+08:00","text":"我們確認一下是不是同一批黃豆，因為通常黃豆來源不同。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:02:47.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:05.422000+08:00","text":"我具體建議，同一批黃豆有不同的製品如醬油都應該檢驗看看，並且擴大檢驗，我了解你說的製程不同，所造成的問題可能不盡相同，但是擴大檢驗以避免食安問題，好不好？","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:06.383000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:10.846000+08:00","text":"委員，你所說的跟這一批黃豆有關的，我們全面清查一下，好不好？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:11.527000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:28.118000+08:00","text":"巴西黃豆有問題，美國黃豆是否也有問題，你們也應該同樣去了解一下，倘若不是巴西黃豆的問題，對於貿易果斷的臆測是否對貿易夥伴有不敬之處，還是要謹慎處理，這個部分我只是提醒而已。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:28.118000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:29.118000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:28.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:34.786000+08:00","text":"但是我們也希望美國黃豆以最高的品質全面稽查，不要有掛一漏萬的狀況，好不好？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:34.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:48.722000+08:00","text":"委員，我們要再強調一下，現在包含專家，為什麼我們仍然還沒有讓中聯復工，就是我們認為它在製造過程應該要做品管的節點，它還沒有辦法說服我們它有好的品管。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:49.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:03:50.803000+08:00","text":"好，這個部分麻煩，我只是提醒一下。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:03:51.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:23.156000+08:00","text":"現在我們看到有教授指出BaP超標的案例其實非常罕見，一般從油脂精煉的角度來看，即便是毛油的BaP含量偏高，經過脫膠、脫酸、脫色、脫臭等完整的精煉程序以後，理論上是可以把濃度下降，黃豆原料經萃取精煉就能把不是三酸甘油酯的部分拿掉，而BaP不是三酸甘油酯，它就是這個部分的成分，理論上可以透過程序降低。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:23.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:29.420000+08:00","text":"我要請問許主任，現在大豆製油出問題，那大豆粕呢？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:30.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:31.482000+08:00","text":"大豆粕跑去哪了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:31.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:32.763000+08:00","text":"有沒有製成飼料？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:33.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:35.766000+08:00","text":"有沒有追蹤、銷燬、收回？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:37.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:04:50.914000+08:00","text":"大豆粕大部分做為飼料用，全世界對於飼料的BaP管理都沒有訂定標準，所以現在認為進入飼料供應鏈，飼養經濟動物上面是沒有問題的。","quality":0.776},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:04:50.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:05:11.468000+08:00","text":"雖然全世界沒有規範，但是我現在提出一個問題，請國人聽聽看這個部分有問題的可能性，含有BaP的原料做成飼料供飼養的動物食用，我們再來吃這些飼養的動物，這個部分我們有疑慮……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-13T10:05:11.468000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:05:12.468000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，它會經過動物代謝，我們會請農業部來說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:05:11.948000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:05:27.351000+08:00","text":"所以我認為這個部分依照法規，黃豆有問題，後面的加工就是不可以用，飼料管理法也規定飼料不可以使用變質的原料，目前大豆粕的流向為何，食安辦有沒有掌握？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"許主任輔","start":"2026-07-13T10:05:28.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:05:33.275000+08:00","text":"大豆粕大部分是進入飼料供應鏈，小部分是進到其他食品……","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:05:33.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:05:48.107000+08:00","text":"這一批有問題的黃豆所製成的大豆粕，現在也是一樣做成飼料供飼養動物，我們就會懷疑，雖然世界沒有定義，但是我們會不會有疑慮？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:05:48.107000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:06:01.760000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，我補充一下，因為這些黃豆製成油，苯駢芘是溶在油裡，所以它已經在製造沙拉油的過程中被溶出來了，理論上，按照學理上來講，它是不會殘留在豆粕那一邊。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:06:02.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:06:12.496000+08:00","text":"我希望你們的推斷是對的，但是我還是要再次提醒，同一批黃豆所製成的大豆粕是不是有疑慮，這個部分你們應該加強一下。好。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:06:13.017000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:06:45.957000+08:00","text":"因為現階段民進黨的食安五環已經澈底破功，我們感到非常非常的擔憂，我還是要建議衛福部，針對壟斷性的大、中代工廠進行提高頻率的無預警製程抽驗，列入不定期抽查，這個部分還是要拜託食安辦完全負責協調統籌跨部會的食品管理作為，來做刑事偵查，配合調查局，配合檢調，這個部分要提醒一下。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-13T10:06:46.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:06:51.602000+08:00","text":"報告委員，針對地方的抽查，我們會跟地方衛生局一起合作，因為主要抽查的是地方衛生局。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:06:51.682000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:06:53.564000+08:00","text":"我還是要提醒你們要有一個角色。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:06:54.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:25.578000+08:00","text":"第二個，我要問教育部，部長，我很直接地說，這起致癌毒油進入校園不是食安的問題，是教育主管機關教育部嚴重失職的問題，事情早在4月就發現，但到現在已經擴及20個縣市、623所學校、258所幼兒園，結果教育部的第一反應是地方政府第一線落實查核，中央主管機關的角色根本就是把監管失能全部甩脫交給第一線的地方政府。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:26.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:28.059000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，這個說法我們是沒有辦法接受的，因為在源頭出問題，我們7月1日就馬上……","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:28.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:39.064000+08:00","text":"教育部一直在講滾動式盤點，落實有疑慮就先下架的預防措施，以學生健康為唯一標準，這句話聽起來很好聽，請問……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:40.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:43.146000+08:00","text":"事實上也是這樣，我們能夠做的就是這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:43.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:50.670000+08:00","text":"請問部長，以學生健康為唯一標準，請你告訴國人，這幾個月教育部做了哪一件事情對得起這句話？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:50.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:07:52.691000+08:00","text":"你該不會要說有疑慮就先下架吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:07:54.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:03.732000+08:00","text":"我問你有疑慮就先下架，衛福部說20%含量的可以繼續留在貨架上，你能不能接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:03.732000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:05.473000+08:00","text":"只要食藥署公布的，我們馬上要求地方縣市政府，按照食藥署的……","quality":0.038},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:05.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:14.099000+08:00","text":"你說如果有疑慮就先下架，衛福部說20%含量的可以留在貨架上，先不用下架，我問你你能不能接受？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:14.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:15.880000+08:00","text":"你先回答我，你能不能接受？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:17.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:23.727000+08:00","text":"所有的下架規定全部依據食藥署的公布，22個地方縣市教育局處馬上……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:24.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:27.130000+08:00","text":"所以你剛剛說有疑慮就下架，就是在打臉衛福部嘛！","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:27.130000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:28.411000+08:00","text":"我們做預防性的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:28.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:36.296000+08:00","text":"衛福部說20%含量的不用下架，現在場面話大家都會講，但是重點的作為呢？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:37.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:47.220000+08:00","text":"政府公布問題產品的名單，只是風險揭露第一步，真正的關鍵是什麼，現在攝入致癌物質的學生，教育部下一步作為要怎麼樣負責？","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:47.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:47.480000+08:00","text":"你告訴我。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:48.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:08:54.563000+08:00","text":"如果家長有疑慮，我們會請學校、地方縣市政府來協助，學校把名單……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:08:54.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:03.392000+08:00","text":"不要講家長有疑慮了，全國國人一定都有疑慮，目前家長最關心的不是怎麼退貨，他們不是要那個小錢……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:03.392000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:04.392000+08:00","text":"委員讓我講完……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:03.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:11.421000+08:00","text":"他們現在關心的是孩子的健康風險如何評估，要不要協助家長長期追蹤，你們有沒有醫療協助的諮商窗口，後續照顧我們的學生？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:11.421000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:12.421000+08:00","text":"這就是我要跟委員說明，委員不讓我說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:11.562000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:12.022000+08:00","text":"好，待會我讓你說明。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:18.129000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:09:39.129000+08:00","text":"所以我今天要提出具體的完整方案及配套，我希望教育部要講清楚說明白，請教育部儘速提出健康照護還有制度改革方案，讓食安防線不會停留在事件發生後的補救，我們要建立所謂的預防、追溯、應變、照護四大機制，請說明。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:09:40.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:15.590000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，事實上，這一定是中央和地方要一起合作的，營養午餐每天所有的食材全部公開透明登錄在食材平臺上，所以當7月1日食藥署一公布的時候，我們已經把22個地方縣市全部在平臺裡面掃過一次，才發現有1,380間學校用到中聯所提供的這三家油品，接著我們請22個地方縣市的教育局處馬上請學校根據品項來逐一做下架。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:16.851000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:19.632000+08:00","text":"我們教育部在這個部分跟地方是合作的……","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:19.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:19.792000+08:00","text":"後續的作為呢？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:21.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:36.267000+08:00","text":"後續的部分，剛才委員所提，我們事實上也在思考，如果學生這兩個月的時間有覺得身體不舒服、不適的話，是不是學校建立一個機制，看怎麼樣來做一個長期的追蹤。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:36.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:40.991000+08:00","text":"我相信孩子不會現在感受到不適，我希望你針對623所學校、258所幼兒園來做一個長期的追蹤機制。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:41.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:41.291000+08:00","text":"我們中央跟地方來合作，我想……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:47.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:52.600000+08:00","text":"這部分我希望你會後提供書面資料給我們，你們要怎麼具體地來做相關的機制。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:52.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:53.600000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:53.061000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:10:56.023000+08:00","text":"我們跟地方來看怎麼樣研議有一個更好的因應作為。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:10:56.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:04.328000+08:00","text":"再來，我想請問大專院校的部分，他們雖然不是營養午餐的系統，但是我們有沒有去關心？","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:04.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:05.409000+08:00","text":"也有一些餐廳，7所學校……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:05.409000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:14.454000+08:00","text":"對嘛，所以大專院校也有可能因為周邊的飲食問題，涉入到這些致癌的問題油。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:14.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:17.195000+08:00","text":"對不起，我們沒有辦法針對學校周邊所有社區的每一家餐廳都……","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:17.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:19.237000+08:00","text":"所以我說希望能夠關切嘛。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:19.517000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:21.918000+08:00","text":"大學裡面的餐廳，我們全部有追蹤，全部列管。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:21.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:26.641000+08:00","text":"但是大學外的周邊，當然可能是仰賴衛福部去做抽查……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:26.641000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:27.641000+08:00","text":"我們可以跨部會提醒……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:27.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:30.223000+08:00","text":"但是我希望現在還是要提醒大專院校應該要去了解一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:30.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:38.342000+08:00","text":"但是持平而論，這已經超越我們教育部的權責，不是我們事不關己，但是關心學生的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:38.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:46.968000+08:00","text":"我還是提醒，第一，你可以承諾大專院校內的餐廳，但是不是也要了解一下大專院校外的餐廳，請大專院校好好地關心這件事情。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:47.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:58.797000+08:00","text":"我們已經全面稽查，有7所學校、16間餐廳，全部下架，食藥署所公布的，我們已經全部都做下架了，學生的安全、健康，我跟委員的心情是一樣的，我們一定要極力維護。","quality":0.422},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:58.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:11:59.517000+08:00","text":"我們要掌握啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:11:59.517000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:00.918000+08:00","text":"大專院校還有國高中以及幼兒園，都是要特別注意的。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:00.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:01.799000+08:00","text":"我們有充分掌握。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:05.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:18.172000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，就這一件事情，我們當然不捨，有一些不良廠商做了這樣一個壞的示範，但是國教署在第一線跟地方政府的合作應該是可以肯定的。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:18.392000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:23.656000+08:00","text":"好，我只是要提醒你，大學生也是學生，這個部分一定要特別注意。當然。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:24.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:27.459000+08:00","text":"接下來，有請所有官員回到座位上。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:27.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:33.004000+08:00","text":"請官員回到座位上，謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:33.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:42.653000+08:00","text":"有請主席幫我邀請信義國小教師會常務理事唐益國先生。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:44.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:12:45.856000+08:00","text":"請唐常務理事上臺。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:12:47.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:13:16.904000+08:00","text":"部長，依據立法院的立法委員手冊，我們可以邀請社會相關人士來委員會跟大家分享，今天我要邀請第一線的教師來跟大家報告，來跟大家講第一線的困境、第一線的為難，也希望部長能夠好好地聽一下老師們現在的困境，他們到底是怎麼樣在第一線奮戰。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:13:16.904000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:13:24.315000+08:00","text":"有請唐常務理事。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:13:24.315000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:13:29.902000+08:00","text":"主席、各位委員、各位長官、現場的媒體先生、小姐，大家好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:13:31.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:14:00.190000+08:00","text":"感謝委員邀請我來分享教育現場的第一線真實情況，我是一名現職的國小老師，年資將近三十年，但今天我並不是來為教師爭取權益的，我是來替學生請命、替教育請命，因為教育如果失敗，最後受害的不是老師，而是整個國家的下一代。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:14:01.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:14:18.566000+08:00","text":"我先分享兩個真實的案例，第一個，十年前我當導師的時候，我有一個學生國小畢業，畢業的時候，他告訴我說：老師，我長大之後，也要像你一樣當一個國小老師。","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:14:18.706000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:15:32.228000+08:00","text":"我請他努力，經過三年國中、三年高中，他真的考上了教育大學，再經過四年的鍛鍊，他去年進入了教育實習的階段，可是就在實習沒有多久時，他因為提醒一個上課講話比較大聲的女學生，那個女學生頭抬起來，就對他說「看啥潲」，沒有錯，他就說了這三個字，我們大家都知道這三個字有多麼地粗魯、無理，而且還是學生對老師說的，他愣住了，幾秒鐘之後，他就默默地離開那間教室，然後請假回家整理思緒，第三天回來學校去教務處辦理終止實習，他不當老師了，十年的教師夢當場夢碎，他說他不希望未來三十年都在這樣的教育環境下工作。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:15:33.448000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:15:38.192000+08:00","text":"我想這會不會是現在教師荒的可能原因之一？","quality":0.737},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:15:39.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:16:00.060000+08:00","text":"第二個故事、第二個案例，有一位老師在上課的時候用電子黑板，就是手滑式、觸控式的那一種，可能有一點接觸不良，第一時間沒有滑出正確的畫面，有一個小男生立刻就說：你是幹什麼吃的。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:16:01.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:16:01.941000+08:00","text":"也是對老師這樣子說。","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:16:05.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:16:12.712000+08:00","text":"各位，我們真正要問的是，為什麼現在越來越多的孩子會這樣子對待老師呢？","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:16:14.152000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:16:50.383000+08:00","text":"教室其實就是一個縮小版的社會，各種孩子都有，而孩子最容易模仿的就是他的同儕，當少數學生可以羞辱老師而沒有明確界限的時候，其他孩子就會跟風模仿，老師原本準備了一場精彩的課，卻因為少數學生的干擾而不得不中斷，真正受傷的其實不是老師，其實也不是那些嗆聲的學生，真正受傷的是什麼？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:16:51.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:17:01.768000+08:00","text":"是全班二十幾個認真學習的孩子，今天被浪費的也不是一個老師的上課時間，而是一整個班級的學習時間。","quality":0.614},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:17:03.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:17:09.771000+08:00","text":"所以我要問了，那些守規矩、願意學習的孩子，他們的受教權又在哪呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:17:12.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:17:17.064000+08:00","text":"我再分享一個案例，有關於校事會議，為什麼現在會有防禦式教學？","quality":0.519},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:17:18.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:17:35.191000+08:00","text":"有一位家長的教學理念比較開放，他常常幫女兒請三天的連假，全家出去做家庭式的教學，這很好，這沒有問題，回來之後是不是還要把學校的功課給補上呢？","quality":0.656},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:17:36.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:17:55.202000+08:00","text":"但是他沒有，老師依照班規，只要班上沒有繳交作業的學生，他的號碼就會被記在黑板上，等繳交完了之後，自己就可以上去把它擦掉，其實全國很多班級都是這麼處理的，這沒有問題。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:17:55.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:18:18.010000+08:00","text":"但是因為這位女生要繳交的東西可能太多了，他沒有及時補完，於是過了幾天之後，黑板上只剩他的名字、只剩他的號碼，他就覺得心裡不舒服，跟他媽媽反映，媽媽就跟老師溝通說是不是可以擦掉，老師就說可以，請他補交完就可以擦掉。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:18:19.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:18:31.689000+08:00","text":"這樣一個堅持班規、堅持教學理念的老師居然就被媽媽指控為霸凌他的孩子，這不荒謬嗎？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:18:31.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:19:07.982000+08:00","text":"一個老師請學生繳交作業，居然可以成為霸凌的理由，但是更荒謬的在後面，他告到了學校，校事會議還接受了，這個老師還被送進校事會議做調查，最後當然沒有解聘、停聘、不續聘這些問題，但是他還是被強迫接受了兩個月的輔導，在那裡面當然就是身心煎熬、受盡了委屈。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:19:09.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:19:30.784000+08:00","text":"從那之後，很多老師就開始進行所謂的防禦式教學，不是不想教、不是不想管教，而是不敢管教，不是不願意要求，而是不敢要求，因為沒有人知道下一個被送進校事會議的人會不會是自己，這就是教育現場的現況。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:19:30.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:20:07.758000+08:00","text":"我想請大家注意的是，老師只是想保護自己，但真正失去的是孩子的教育品質，如果老師因為害怕而不敢管教，失去受教權的就是大多數安靜、努力、守規矩的學生，教育從來就不只是教知識而已，它更是教尊重、責任、規矩與是非，如果老師連維持秩序、連繳交作業的要求都要擔心被調查，那孩子到底要向誰學習呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:20:10.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:20:23.115000+08:00","text":"我記得前幾個月有個教師團體上街表達訴求，教育部長的回應我記得很清楚，部長說：請他們回學校把學生給教好。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:20:24.574000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:20:49.275000+08:00","text":"我在這裡要向部長報告，我們每個老師真的都願意拿出最大的能力把學生教好，但是老師們得到的支持和他們所承擔的責任完全不成比例，政策沒有支持認真的老師、政策沒有支持認真的孩子！","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:20:50.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:20:58.468000+08:00","text":"德國教育學家福祿貝爾的名言：教育無他，唯愛與榜樣而已。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:21:00.108000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:21:16.212000+08:00","text":"我認為教育不只是在教室裡學生跟老師之間近距離聽到、摸到、看到才叫做教育、才叫做模範，政府官員的一言一行透過媒體也都是孩子們學習的榜樣。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:21:17.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:21:30.694000+08:00","text":"我們今天呼籲的不是讓教師擁有什麼特權，而是希望制度真正保護大多數孩子的受教權！","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:21:30.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:21:45.942000+08:00","text":"最後，我懇請各位正視基層教師的吶喊、正視基層教育的困境，不要讓認真的老師寒心、不要讓認真的孩子失望！","quality":1},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:21:46.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:03.708000+08:00","text":"因此，我誠懇建議校事會議是否能夠儘快暫停適用，全面檢討之後，該修就修、該廢就廢，讓制度真正回到保障學生受教權的初衷！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"唐常務理事益國","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:04.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:06.450000+08:00","text":"我的報告到此，謝謝大家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:08.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:12.494000+08:00","text":"麻煩主席請唐老師回去，請部長。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:12.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:14.816000+08:00","text":"請唐老師回座，有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:21.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:29.730000+08:00","text":"部長，最近有一則新聞，國中生遲到被罰抄課文、提國賠求償140萬，你知道這件事嗎？","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:29.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:30.711000+08:00","text":"我知道，我看到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:31.511000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:37.154000+08:00","text":"部長，我們一直在想家庭教育跟學校教育的差別到底在哪裡？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:37.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:47.100000+08:00","text":"我認為學校教育是培養人格的場所，我們在學校端也要盡可能地將他教好，也希望他出了社會能夠有所發展。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:47.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:51.183000+08:00","text":"但有沒有想過，你覺得學生畢業以後就不關教育部的問題嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:51.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:22:55.206000+08:00","text":"他是內政部、法務部、勞動部、衛福部的事嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:22:55.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:23:00.250000+08:00","text":"這個部分難道就跟教育部沒有任何關係嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:23:00.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:23:22.249000+08:00","text":"你們在今天的書面報告指出，區分出缺席管理與獎懲是為了避免同一行為重複處理，若無法使用記警告、明確的懲處手段，僅能使用提醒、勸導、書面自省等輔導措施，往往面臨輔導成效不彰，學生無所畏懼的窘境。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:23:23.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:23:43.166000+08:00","text":"剛剛我們看到唐老師也提到，第一線看到孩子在言語上這麼直接，我們要問教育部，如果今天是提醒、勸導，學生一個不喜歡聽就說老師言語羞辱他、檢舉老師，最終面對校事會議的壓力要怎麼辦？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:23:43.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:23:47.111000+08:00","text":"如果是書面自省，學生拒絕怎麼辦？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:23:47.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:23:47.551000+08:00","text":"有沒有解方？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:23:49.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:24:08.538000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，關於剛才這位老師的分享，我想我們的想法都一樣，確保學生的受教權，然後尊重老師的專業、守護老師的專業教學，我想我們的想法、現在所有法條、規範的目標都是一致的。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:24:09.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:24:18.882000+08:00","text":"關於委員剛才所關心的那個案例，也非常感謝法院已經判決這一位學生跟家長是敗訴的。","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:24:19.202000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:24:21.303000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，但是過程中他們是煎熬的。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:24:21.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:24:36.888000+08:00","text":"第二個，我也要跟委員還有這位老師報告，校事會議怎麼樣去處理不適任教師本來就是依據教師法訂定的，當然這有其背景，不適任教師還是要有一定的處理機制……","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:24:36.888000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:24:37.888000+08:00","text":"沒有問題，處理不適任教師我們都認同，但是如何支持好的老師、好的學生嘛？","quality":0.194},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:24:37.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:12.043000+08:00","text":"所以我們感謝委員的支持，今年1月的時候我們把過去造成老師的恐慌、無謂的干擾降到最低，剛才也跟大院報告過，關於1月份委員所支持的新辦法，這個分流包含老師、主任平時怎麼樣去做好親師溝通，協助老師有更大的支持力量，數據告訴我們這些已經直接降了50%吧。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:12.043000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:13.043000+08:00","text":"我知道，你說降很多啦，但還是有問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:12.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:14.503000+08:00","text":"所以我要談的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:14.503000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:15.503000+08:00","text":"第一線無感！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:14.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:15.704000+08:00","text":"第一線無感……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:15.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:29.527000+08:00","text":"我先麻煩你針對我回應，我先問你，如果學生拒絕書面自省；如果老師提醒勸導的時候學生不喜歡聽，直接說老師言語羞辱他、去檢舉老師，這方面有沒有什麼解方？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:29.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:33.489000+08:00","text":"我想這一個部分就是我們的第一條，校長應該要承擔……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:33.489000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:34.489000+08:00","text":"你們都要求校長承擔，為什麼不是部長承擔？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:33.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:48.616000+08:00","text":"我們在分流方面要勿枉勿縱，有教師代表、有家長代表、有社會公正人士、校長主持，所以這個部分我們希望在第一階段就能夠講清楚、能夠分流，因為老師……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:48.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:25:59.564000+08:00","text":"我今天提出來的你還是要想想，如果今天書面的提醒、請他自省、勸導而學生不喜歡、不願意配合，我們要怎麼辦？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:25:59.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:00.285000+08:00","text":"我們不可能強迫他。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:00.285000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:01.426000+08:00","text":"老師本於教學專業的正當管教是不罰的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:01.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:23.552000+08:00","text":"部長，你說對於長期出缺席異常、屢勸不聽的，在不得加以懲處的前提下，學校所能採取的是特殊管教措施，如帶回管教，規劃參加高關懷課程、心理輔導、社會服務還有其他的適性教育，這個執行門檻還有實際成效為何？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:24.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:25.255000+08:00","text":"教育部有沒有具體的統計數據？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:27.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:30.863000+08:00","text":"會後我們可以提供委員一個書面。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:31.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:42.848000+08:00","text":"我相信這些東西的具體數據讓國人都擔憂，讓教學現場都覺得可能沒有辦法在具體教育現況中實施……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:42.848000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:45.930000+08:00","text":"我想委員也很清楚，教學是一個專業的工作，但它不完全是一加一等於二，因為每一個學生都有個別差異，我們也不希望貼標籤，我想對於學生而言，學校是用來輔導、教育……","quality":0.145},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:45.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:48.834000+08:00","text":"你說現在要有特殊管教措施，這難道就不會給我們的孩子貼標籤嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:26:48.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:26:50.717000+08:00","text":"你們說葉元之委員的法案會貼標籤，那你現在的特殊管教措施不會貼標籤嗎？","quality":0.438},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:02.248000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:04.370000+08:00","text":"難道不會貼標籤嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:04.370000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:05.370000+08:00","text":"我問你呀！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:04.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:07.171000+08:00","text":"關於標籤化，基本上從學校立場來看，我們應該把它降到最低。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:07.552000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:15.397000+08:00","text":"如果未有明顯改善出缺席的情形，在不得已、不能夠加以懲處的規範下，學校到底能做什麼？","quality":0.865},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:15.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:21.741000+08:00","text":"我們今天就是要探討這個問題，好好去想想這陣子為什麼所有的家長全部爆炸？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:21.741000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:25.244000+08:00","text":"出缺席、曠課、遲到不能記警告……","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:25.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:31.256000+08:00","text":"因為依據法令當時的規定……其實跟委員報告，臺北市當時就有一個高中學生因為缺課了，然後學校記了警告，他不服……","quality":0.426},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:32.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:35.561000+08:00","text":"我知道，不能同一行為有兩次的處罰，所以你們開始規範這樣子的事情。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:35.561000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:40.216500+08:00","text":"好，我現在問你，因為判決而現在不能記警告，那我們該怎麼辦？","quality":0.04},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:40.216500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:44.872000+08:00","text":"我們不是……應該是說，在那個時空，我們立法院的委員對學生有許多的……希望能不能將他的受教權切開，學習的曠課當然讓學科成績受影響，也可能因為曠課時數太多而沒有辦法取得正式的畢業證書，也就是說，缺課面向上的原因比較多，我們也根據大院委員意見訂定出相關規範。","quality":0.175},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:27:44.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:27:47.073000+08:00","text":"有些學生就不在乎，對於上場去任何的教學他不在乎，那我們要怎麼保障其他願意受教的好學生？","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:13.542000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:18.185000+08:00","text":"我們又要不得懲處、又要維持秩序，學校要怎麼做嘛？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:19.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:20.606000+08:00","text":"一方面對學生負責，避免日後又被批評放任缺課！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:20.606000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:29.502000+08:00","text":"沒有不得懲處，老師還是可以本於專業進行教學專業的輔導跟教導，而且這方面我們也明文是不罰的。","quality":0.262},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:29.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:32.065000+08:00","text":"部長，我沒有要你跟我辯論，你辯贏我也沒有用……","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:32.065000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:33.065000+08:00","text":"我沒有要辯論，我只是……","quality":0.111},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:32.686000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:41.717000+08:00","text":"我現在就問你，對於現在的狀況，我們又要不得懲處、又要維護秩序，我們到底要怎麼樣學校才可以好好的去做？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:42.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:55.226000+08:00","text":"我們又怕被批評為放任缺課，在這樣的制度設計下，教育部認為學校如何實際做到報告中所說的兼顧學生權益保障又支持教師輔導管教需求？","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:55.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:28:57.047000+08:00","text":"部長，你教大家！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:28:58.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:29:13.353000+08:00","text":"另一個更現實的問題，未來發生學生長期缺課或者在校園內外發生傷害的時候，社會輿論第一個追究的一定是學校為什麼沒有及早介入、為什麼沒有採取更積極的管理措施……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:29:13.353000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:29:14.694000+08:00","text":"我想我們同意……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:29:14.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:29:33.227000+08:00","text":"今天我們在講清水高級中學發生的這個憾事，我們都不捨，今天楊爸爸在現場，我們對於這些長期有問題的孩子要怎麼樣實施管教以避免日後造成更大的問題？","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:29:33.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:29:41.013000+08:00","text":"部長，出了事以後，教育部公開替第一線老師背書、說他們依法行事，還是要回頭再檢討學校機制不夠完備。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:29:42.054000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:29:56.558000+08:00","text":"報告中我們看到對於高關懷及違規情形重大的學生，經學校相關會議議決後，以抽離式進行課程編班，依學生問題類型不同，以彈性分組教學模式安排課程。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:29:57.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:05.620000+08:00","text":"請問一下部長，面臨龐大的拒絕學習還有情緒困擾的需求，現行的資源足夠嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:05.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:18.684000+08:00","text":"我最後要問一句，現在的學生不尊重時間，不敬老師，日後造成社會問題，會由整個社會一同承擔，我們希望部長好好想一下，今天為什麼我會辦這個專案報告……","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:18.684000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:19.684000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒，我們確實也因應整個大環境的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:18.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:24.626000+08:00","text":"不只是家長，不只是老師，所有的委員大家都很關心，也希望你能夠好好的檢討這些政策帶來的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:24.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:41.637000+08:00","text":"我們會跟家長團體、學生團體、老師還有地方縣市教育局處，看怎麼樣能夠有更與時俱進的管教辦法，我們一定是支持老師的，這毋庸置疑。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"羅委員廷瑋","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:41.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:47.303000+08:00","text":"我今天不只是用委員的身分，我是用家長的身分在擔憂、在跟你做溝通，我希望你們真的好好想一想，謝謝。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:47.563000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:52.708000+08:00","text":"我同意老師現在面臨的挑戰確實是比以前大，我們一起來努力，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:52.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:52.728000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長，請回座。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:53.228000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:54.656571+08:00","text":"謝謝羅召委。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（羅委員廷瑋）","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:54.956571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:57.528000+08:00","text":"下一位請柯志恩委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:30:57.828000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:30:59.828000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:00.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:01.270857+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:01.570857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:02.570857+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:02.870857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:20.585143+08:00","text":"部長，今天題目非常多，也都非常的重要，但是時間非常的有限，我就延續剛剛羅召委對於我們學生管教還有校事會議的部分，我們再更精準地來問一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:20.885143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:30.885143+08:00","text":"彭署長特別提到我們在7月15號對於校事會議的執行狀況，部長會做出一個說明，沒錯吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:31.185143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:32.185143+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:32.485143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:35.913714+08:00","text":"所以你們現在已有結論了嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:36.213714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:38.785143+08:00","text":"剛才也跟委員會報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:39.085143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:31:40.513714+08:00","text":"已經有報告？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:31:40.813714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:32:09.670857+08:00","text":"來，我們先看一下，到目前為止，在你們的閉門會議當中，你們很顯然是要續推校事會議，但是教師團體、剛剛也有第一線的老師來說，他們當然希望終極目標是廢除，但是很顯然的，你們是要維持校事會議，但是要讓各地方政府有調處的機制，沒錯吧？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:32:09.970857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:32:16.828000+08:00","text":"關於地方政府調處機制，各地方的處長還有局長都同意嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:32:17.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:32:19.413714+08:00","text":"這是你們的共識嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:32:19.713714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:33:30.856571+08:00","text":"為什麼我在地方的時候，他們都認為教育部應該讓它有一個法律的位階，如果只是讓各地方來做一個調處的機制，某種程度還是有非常大的問題，而且部長上次還特別講，很多時候會存有一些資訊的落差，你認為在1月的時候已經做了非常多的處理，包括匿名的處理等等，還有很多大小案的分流，但是外界可能不太清楚，你可以問一下所有在場的第一線老師，他們認為如果資訊有些落差的話，那一定是教育部的問題，沒有讓老師親自理解，而且最重要的是，即使如此，就算資訊很透明，但是老師在第一線仍然會深刻感受到，他們永遠都會是下一個被送進去校事會議的人，所以還是沒有辦法解決他們的焦慮。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:33:31.156571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:33:33.156571+08:00","text":"部長，這該怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:33:33.456571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:33:42.599429+08:00","text":"委員也很清楚校事會議，它時空上有一些特定的社會事件，所以才會在109年訂定……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:33:42.899429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:33:46.613714+08:00","text":"我懂，部長，我現在就要特別提到……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:33:46.913714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:33:54.913714+08:00","text":"也跟委員報告，就算今天沒有校事會議，還是要面臨老師解聘、不續聘……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:33:55.213714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:34:30.070857+08:00","text":"沒有錯，部長，你講到一個重點，我們先把我的問題問完，你講到一個很大的重點，我們都維護學生百分之百的受教權，校事會議如果只是單純處理不適任教師，而且有非常嚴重的情事，把他送進校事會議，我們沒有話講，而且只要涉及教師法第十四條到第十八條的話，你把他交給校事會議處理就好了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:34:30.370857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:34:45.513714+08:00","text":"你現在最大的問題是，有一些班級經營上，親師之間發生言語衝突，就全部送去校事會議，這才是個最大的問題，所以你如果有辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:34:45.813714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:34:59.242286+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實從教育部的觀點來看，我們要保護學生的受教權，但我們更在意老師能不能安心的做好專業，所以……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:34:59.542286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:35:03.828000+08:00","text":"是，但你現在的做法就是沒有辦法嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:35:04.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:35:19.270857+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，事實上就是有那麼多人、家長都投訴說這個老師不適任要解聘，所以我們才要全面分流，說他沒有那麼嚴重，只要老師……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:35:19.570857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:35:20.570857+08:00","text":"結果呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:35:20.870857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:36:32.585143+08:00","text":"但是部長，我說實在的，校事會議不是在你任內搞出來的，你現在就是要來收拾，我對你這點抱以非常大的……覺得你也很委屈啦，我們就是來解決事情的，就我來說，誠如我剛剛說的，很多班級經營上，言語引發的誤解，可以不用送進來，在過去的時候，這些就是全部送進校事會議，你看有一個最簡單的部分，在你的解聘辦法當中，109年公布的只有3,855個字，113年你修正後，增加到1萬1,696個字，洋洋灑灑，搞到校園裡面雞飛狗跳，到了今年，你所修正的字數更多，在所有的部分裡面，部長，我告訴你，你目前是匿名不受理，案件是有減少，但是教育現場失序混亂，凡檢舉必成案的陷阱，還是有很多事後沒有辦法解決，今天的爭議就在這地方嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:36:32.885143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:03.170857+08:00","text":"不適任教師的解聘，以前的就行之有年，就可以處理很多事情，你需要搞一個最前面的部分，然後大家已經雞飛狗跳，老師都不想留了，你們又開始來告訴大家說：好，我們來解決，來解決分流的問題，我們有個調解的機制，地方政府可以授權，這中間你耗了多少時間？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:03.470857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:11.470857+08:00","text":"所有還待在這個地方的老師，我都佩服他們的韌性，部長，難道不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:11.770857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:24.056571+08:00","text":"我們1月通過的，我們教育部要怎麼樣來加強宣導，還有22個地方縣市教育局處要怎麼樣去加強他們在地的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:24.356571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:33.499429+08:00","text":"你覺得到目前為止，你做了這些，我就是在等你7月15號完整的部分，我只能告訴你……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:33.799429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:44.085143+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，連我們召集委員的選區臺中市，校事會議都減少了52%，那個案件都減少了52%。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:44.385143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:37:57.813714+08:00","text":"你問在場的老師，減少的部分是來自於老師根本不敢管、不想管，所以你的案件數字變少，真的是來自於這個部分嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:37:58.113714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:02.113714+08:00","text":"你要看到數字背後的本質問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:02.413714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:08.413714+08:00","text":"老師不想管，不想得罪家長，當然就沒有這些事情啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:08.713714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:10.428000+08:00","text":"委員也很清楚……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:10.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:14.442286+08:00","text":"你讓這整個校園變成什麼樣子？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:14.742286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:18.170857+08:00","text":"數字下降絕對不是一個解方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:18.470857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:30.185143+08:00","text":"很多部分我同意不能直接用因果關係，但是至少我們所有的data跟地方的座談是往好的方向……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:30.485143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:38.485143+08:00","text":"如果是往好的方向，就不會有一個鐵拳教育，引發這麼多老師的共鳴……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:38.785143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:38:47.356571+08:00","text":"我只能講，我們也希望它能夠更快讓第一線的老師能夠穩下來、能夠安心……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:38:47.656571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:39:04.513714+08:00","text":"部長，如果是這樣子的話，你真的也到各處去，特別去到彰化，你特別去問彰化教育處、問彰化的第一線老師，你這麼關心彰化沒有問題，他們真的有……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:39:04.813714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:39:08.242286+08:00","text":"不只是彰化，我還到金門、馬祖……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:39:08.542286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:39:20.256571+08:00","text":"他們都有感受到……校事會議的存在對老師來說，到目前為止，他們真的有覺得自己都不會是下一個嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:39:20.556571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:39:23.985143+08:00","text":"你有沒有問問第一線的老師？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:39:24.285143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:40:03.713714+08:00","text":"如果有的話，我們這些老師就不會有這麼沉重的說明，更何況你剛剛所知道的，關於學生出勤管理的部分，你看，召委特別排了這個專案，目前來說，最有名的就是遲到被罰寫，要求償140萬，我想以教育的觀點來看，教育部今天的報告當中提到要持續兼顧學生的權益，支持老師的輔導管教需求，我們一樣要問，給老師管教需求的底線到底在哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:40:04.013714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:40:19.442286+08:00","text":"因為很多人會非常的擔心，因為他們很擔心沒有辦法……而且張廖次長還特別說，老師不需要懼怕對學生正當的管教，老師不需懼怕嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:40:19.742286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:40:39.456571+08:00","text":"你問在場的老師，老師現在就是非常的懼怕，因為他們認為隨時做的一些事情都有可能被訴，即使最後判他們一切無罪，但是這整個過程中的煎熬，所以大家真的很無奈。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:40:39.756571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:40:52.042286+08:00","text":"而且剛有人提出一個，以目前來說，高中職老師特別無奈，他們說到目前為止，畢業率下滑到90.3%，沒有錯吧？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:40:52.342286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:41:46.913714+08:00","text":"然後你告訴我們，目前高中生、高中職有1萬6,510人沒有拿到畢業證書，可是你們告訴我們，未取得畢業證書不等於沒有完成高中學業，還是可以選擇以同等學力去考試，而且還可以再回來高中，到了大學之後，還是可以回到高中，有一位高中校長告訴我，現在拿到高中畢業的證書，比拿到大學畢業證書還要困難，沒有人會再回來，但是部長，說實在的，就是因為現在有很多學生，他即使放空、他即使什麼事都不做、他沒有畢業，他照樣可以往前走，但這真的是我們教育的目的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:41:47.213714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:42:13.785143+08:00","text":"老師不敢管教、不想管，怕觸怒家長，所以他乾脆就把他的書全部教完，然後學生愛聽不聽，隨便他，反正沒有畢業證書，他照樣可以往前走，到目前為止，你認為教育應該就是這樣子讓他自由放任，完全不要讓老師有任何的管教權嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:42:14.085143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:42:46.085143+08:00","text":"部長，這才是我們目前的現況，寬容成了我們臺灣教育的慢性毒藥，這真的是一個校長非常、非常沉痛的部分，寬容成了我們臺灣教育的慢性毒藥，你看看，不交作業、缺考、蹺課、通知家長但不來、上課睡覺、拿不到畢業證書也不擔心，這是我們目前的教育現象，部長，這是我們要的嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:42:46.385143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:42:47.528000+08:00","text":"當然不是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:42:47.828000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:42:54.970857+08:00","text":"你給老師什麼大家所說的不要害怕去管教，老師能不害怕嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:42:55.270857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:07.842286+08:00","text":"即使把數字降低了，但是實質存在老師心裡的陰影，隨時變成下一個可能會被調查的，這個問題沒有解決耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:08.142286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:24.428000+08:00","text":"部長，如果回到過去，不適任老師用教師法這個解聘的方法，所以這就是今天我們為什麼在這個地方要求把解聘辦法退回去修正的原因嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:24.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:33.299429+08:00","text":"如果照這個方法讓它過的話，很多老師會跳腳的，所以你們退回去修正嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:33.599429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:47.028000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果以去年我進來之前所有的案例跟校園的執行情形，我告訴委員，如果沒有今天的改變，只有更慘烈。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:47.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:49.328000+08:00","text":"誰造成這種慘烈？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:49.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:52.770857+08:00","text":"以前教育沒有這麼慘烈耶！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:53.070857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:43:58.213714+08:00","text":"因為濫訴、因為不具名，很多違反民主法治的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:43:58.513714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:00.513714+08:00","text":"始作俑者是哪裡？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:00.813714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:07.956571+08:00","text":"為什麼我們現在要討論到具名、不具名這麼細節的技術問題？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:08.256571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:16.542286+08:00","text":"這只是在老師被告的時候，你們現在用一個技術性的部分去讓它減少……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:16.842286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:18.842286+08:00","text":"因為在109年那時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:19.142286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:20.856571+08:00","text":"但是更之前呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:21.156571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:24.870857+08:00","text":"我要討論的是綜合性的問題啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:25.170857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:38.313714+08:00","text":"學校裡面因為發生了這些不幸的事件，老師被社會大眾認為是師師相護，連臺中市政府要介入都不得其門而入……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:38.613714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:40.328000+08:00","text":"所以校事會議……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:40.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:43.485143+08:00","text":"所以才會有這樣的辦法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:43.785143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:45.213714+08:00","text":"部長，我知道……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:45.513714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:44:46.942286+08:00","text":"立法院才會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:44:47.242286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:45:06.956571+08:00","text":"但是你有沒有覺得，我們也不希望總有慘事發生，為了這件事情，在引發更大的機制出來之後，卻引發更大的老師恐慌跟反彈，你還是認為校事會議的機制有解決問題嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:45:07.256571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:45:17.828000+08:00","text":"我想委員也很清楚，我們現在很努力積極地希望能夠營造更友善的校園，親師一定要合作。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:45:18.128000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:45:25.556571+08:00","text":"好，我最後問一句，部長，所以校事會議廢除還是你最終的目標嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:45:25.856571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:45:40.713714+08:00","text":"這當然是，如果能夠回到正常，當親師合作，老師、學生、家長大家彼此信任，能夠有一個更好的學習環境，我相信沒有人會反對。當然！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:45:41.013714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:45:48.728000+08:00","text":"這時候就回到專業的校教評會裡面，針對不適任的老師去做處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:45:49.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:01.028000+08:00","text":"所以以目前來說，沒有辦法回到專業的教評會就是因為還有很多更嚴重的事情要處理，是這樣子嗎？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:01.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:02.328000+08:00","text":"然後呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:02.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:12.056571+08:00","text":"我幫你釐清，所以你們現在要降低的就是有關親師之間的管教問題，在問題裡面……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:12.356571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:13.499429+08:00","text":"我們希望……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:13.799429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:20.370857+08:00","text":"就不要再讓它進到校事會議，這可以做得到嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:20.670857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:24.670857+08:00","text":"只有一些非常嚴重、不適任的部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:24.970857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:30.399429+08:00","text":"我們現在所有的努力跟委員所提的是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:30.699429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:46:37.270857+08:00","text":"符合教師法第十四條到第十八條的就可以這樣子嘛！是。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:46:37.570857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:47:05.570857+08:00","text":"這個部分你要堅守住，可是我告訴你，聽聽地方老師的聲音，如果沒有辦法好好地讓老師覺得他的教學權是可以受到保障的，很多家長無理的要求是可以讓學校在第一線做處理的，我告訴你，老師的恐懼，留不住老師還是會繼續持續下去的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:47:05.870857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:47:22.728000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我這兩年一直在地方跑，就是在傾聽家長的聲音、老師的聲音，我也希望各種團體的聲音能夠讓學校更好，我想這是我們一致的目標。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:47:23.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:47:29.028000+08:00","text":"廢除是終極的目標，我們就來看看在這個過程當中……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:47:29.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:47:31.042286+08:00","text":"我也希望老師……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:47:31.342286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:47:35.342286+08:00","text":"可以如何能夠回到我們最專業的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:47:35.642286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:48:14.499429+08:00","text":"最後，我還是利用時間來問一下有關教育經費的部分，你也很清楚，窮不能窮孩子，關於這一部分，我比較遺憾的地方是，財劃法修法之後，很多的錢是下放給地方，但是以這個部分來說，中央是減少3,753億的收入，按比例來說的話，教育經費的分擔只要減少155億就可以了，但是主計總處硬要減少500億，這就是告訴我們，有345億的教育經費是超減的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:48:14.799429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:48:22.228000+08:00","text":"部長，怎麼可以用這個方法來對我們的教育經費做這樣的處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:48:22.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:48:51.956571+08:00","text":"所以我們目前跟很多的民間教育團體來大聲疾呼，我們應該明確分擔12.9%的底線，教育部不應該拿財政紀律法來當擋箭牌，因為是超減三百多億，要根據12.9%，這是不受任何法令的，你們不要拿這個東西來當擋箭牌，12.9%是我們的底線，有沒有辦法做到？","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:48:52.256571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:49:17.970857+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們現在在努力的是，在財劃法修法之後，中央包括行政一般獎補助有關教育這個區塊到地方去，還有教育部這一塊到地方去，我們希望把它臚列出來，讓地方縣市教育局處能夠根據這個跟縣市首長說……對啦！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:49:18.270857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:49:22.270857+08:00","text":"但是部長，我就告訴你，你應該只須……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:49:22.570857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:49:26.285143+08:00","text":"因為原來中央支持地方教育的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:49:26.585143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:49:41.156571+08:00","text":"當然，把教育放回到地方去，很清楚地，幫你們算出來了，大概只要減少155億就可以了，但到目前為止減到500億，我就跟你說是超減了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:49:41.456571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:50:19.170857+08:00","text":"就是要有底線，我的底線很簡單，守住12.9%的底線，因為在財政紀律法第七條，你們常常拿出法來說，但是法律可以修，財政紀律法不是財政憲法，而是一部普通法律，所以不能凌駕於其他法律，更不能阻止立法委員來做這樣一個事情，所以我今天特別提出來，任何保障教育經費比例的法律一概不得來做這樣的……並沒有規定喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:50:19.470857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:50:32.613714+08:00","text":"部長，請你看清楚，不應該是拒絕修法的藉口，我現在只是很卑微的希望能夠擋住12.9%，即使過去大家要修財劃法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:50:32.913714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:50:38.056571+08:00","text":"我想教育經費的提升，我們的目標是一致的。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:50:38.356571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:50:49.499429+08:00","text":"即使以前大家要修財劃法，不管中央跟地方怎麼拼，整個12.9%的底線，還是要求中央應該來分擔。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:50:49.799429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:50:59.228000+08:00","text":"部長，你就應該好好地跟行政院表達教育部的立場，這些部分不能夠轉嫁給地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:50:59.528000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:51:14.670857+08:00","text":"我還是強調，減收三百多億，這個部分是部長應該替我們守住的，不要每次都拿財劃法來說，財劃法有它的細緻、財劃法有它的分裂。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:51:14.970857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:51:20.113714+08:00","text":"各部會跟地方縣市教育局處能夠一起合作……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:51:20.413714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:51:21.413714+08:00","text":"當然啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:51:21.713714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:51:30.285143+08:00","text":"我們一定希望這些錢、所有的資源，該用在教育的不要變成用到其他地方。","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:51:30.585143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:51:52.585143+08:00","text":"這是我們共同的目標，我剛剛條列了非常多，所以希望部長、大家能夠共同來配合，不要什麼事情都拿財劃法，然後把它一箭擋下，好像財劃法是萬惡不赦，一來地方都沒有錢，不是的，很多的錢……","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:51:52.885143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:04.028000+08:00","text":"我們只是擔心原來屬於中央補助、支持地方的教育經費被拿到其他地方，我想這個部分我們會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:52:04.328000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:05.470857+08:00","text":"當然是嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"柯委員志恩","start":"2026-07-13T10:52:05.770857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:19.199429+08:00","text":"所以你把餅做大，12.9%的部分把它守住，我們就可以守住，以目前來說，還少了356億，這點是要特別告訴部長的，謝謝部長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T10:52:19.499429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:21.213714+08:00","text":"謝謝委員指正。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:52:21.513714+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:22.656571+08:00","text":"謝謝，請回。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T10:52:22.956571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T10:52:25.528000+08:00","text":"下一位請陳培瑜委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2384,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（9時55分）謝謝主席，有請教育部部長、衛福部林靜儀政次還有食安辦主任。"],["主席：請教育部部長、林靜儀政次還有食安辦主任。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好，政次好，主任好。我先請教一下衛福部，想請問一下政次，像行政院召開行政院院會跟各個縣市開會的時候，你會在嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：不一定，通常是部長出席。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，在9日石部長說行政院院會中臺中副市長問什麼時候這些油品可以上架，媒體就去詢問黃副市長：你有說過嗎？黃副市長說：我只有建議更嚴格的風險管控還有源頭的處理、全面下架。那我們看到衛福部在會後竟然補充說明：臺中市沒有說何時上架，只有說全面下架的問題。這是在大街抹黑、在小巷澄清，部長有沒有跟你說過這個部分？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想麻煩你幫忙轉達一下，請部長在做所有的事實陳述的時候還是要特別注意，不要有任何抹黑的狀況，因為我想現階段到底什麼是真、什麼是假，我們更注重官員在備詢時的一些解說還有在記者會所提供的一些內容參據，這些都會讓我們民眾能夠更了解現況。","我們看到12日石部長指出下游的油品和上游的原油檢驗存在落差，同樣的事情不只一樁，因此衛福部懷疑中聯油脂的檢體造假，在第一時間才不公布，所以才會擴大到4到6月的產品全數預防性下架。再對應11日臺中地院認為中聯油脂總經理涉行使業務上登載不實文書罪，因為已認罪而裁定交保，顯然本案已經進入偵審的階段，我就尚未公開的資訊不做任何的質詢，待院、檢、調以及貴部的調查、偵查告一段落以後，我們也希望政府向國人說明。","許主任，我們在這邊也應該要感謝檢調在第一時間跟衛福部來配合，才能挖掘最底層、我們現在才知道的一些黑暗資料，就如同食藥署的前身食藥局在99年到100年跟調查局一起合作，才能夠破獲數起食品摻雜威而剛的偽藥案件，這也是當時食安辦成立的目的，就是為了要做跨部會的協調工作。但是我們現在看到幾個報刊雜誌報導的內容，食藥署食品組組長許朝凱指出，這類供食用油煉製的黃豆，業者多採「合船採購」，考量黃豆產季季節性，有些業者會同時採購美國、巴西黃豆。目前國內多數煉油廠從製成、原料品驗收，至初榨「毛油」檢驗及後續脫色、脫臭過程，均做得比中聯油脂公司還要好，研判可將疑慮致癌物質標準降至限量標準以下。我們又看到9日姜至剛說台糖五、六月向福懋油脂購入中聯初榨油品，與自家初榨油品混合精煉，製成台糖大豆沙拉油、烤酥油兩品項，我們看到台糖現在也有預防性的下架作為。我們又看到石崇良在11日表示，10月8日以後食藥署至大統益、台糖、長輝事業三家煉油廠進行駐廠。我想問一下林次，10月8日食藥署前往……"],["林次長靜儀：7月8日。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對不起，是7月8日。食藥署至大統益、台糖、長輝三家煉油廠進行駐廠，是否由於檢調來做配合偵查？現階段還有沒有跟他們在其他時段共同使用黃豆原料，與中聯油是使用同一批船的黃豆？"],["林次長靜儀：其他沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：都完全沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：目前我們預防性下架的部分就是跟中聯有關的這兩批。"],["羅委員廷瑋：該抽驗30件檢體的化驗報告出爐了嗎？是不是應該及時公告？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有全部出來，目前已經出來15件，包含大統益、長輝還沒，台糖的出來了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們希望報告出爐要及時公告。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，因為我們這邊持續在驗，所以我們有新的報告都會再公布。"],["羅委員廷瑋：關於致癌毒油，食藥署第一時間定義戰犯是巴西進口含水率過高的黃豆，學者研判是巴西黃豆在原產地採收後乾燥、蒸燻的過程，恐出現熱損傷，而產生BaP的問題，然而從今年1到5月，臺灣從巴西進口的黃豆量總量達到59.9萬噸，該批大豆除了供應中聯油脂，還有三家煉油廠包含大統益、台糖、長輝事業，是否有少量供應其他製作醬油、豆漿、豆類製品的工廠？畢竟沙拉油在煉製過程BaP含量會下降80%以上，但其他豆類製品是直接粉碎加工使用，次長，我們都很想知道有沒有其他的漏網之魚，如醬油及豆類製品？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，第一個是製程不同，剛剛提到……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，但是如果使用到同一批的話，我們都會擔憂。"],["林次長靜儀：跟委員報告，黃豆可能因為剛剛講的水分等問題，所以在製油過程中，我們還有剛剛提到的HACCP要處理，油廠在製造的時候，因為它的來源可能水分不同的關係，它要有符合HACCP好的品管，每個節點都要做好品管……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，但國人會擔心，畢竟是同一批黃豆來源的製品……"],["林次長靜儀：你剛剛提到的是黃豆來源的製品，這個部分我們會另外後續……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我要提醒的是，現在國人會擔憂同一批黃豆如果有問題，被作成醬油或者是加工類食品……"],["林次長靜儀：製程不同，所以不會有這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道製程不同，但是我們還是鼓勵衛福部食藥署應該去抽查檢驗了解，雖然製程不同，但是同一批黃豆會不會有相關的製程食品讓國人吃下肚，有問題……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，同一批黃豆用跟這個油一樣製程的，我們全面跟你做報告，這樣好不好？"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你可以同意去做檢驗嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我們確認一下是不是同一批黃豆，因為通常黃豆來源不同。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我具體建議，同一批黃豆有不同的製品如醬油都應該檢驗看看，並且擴大檢驗，我了解你說的製程不同，所造成的問題可能不盡相同，但是擴大檢驗以避免食安問題，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，你所說的跟這一批黃豆有關的，我們全面清查一下，好不好？"],["羅委員廷瑋：巴西黃豆有問題，美國黃豆是否也有問題，你們也應該同樣去了解一下，倘若不是巴西黃豆的問題，對於貿易果斷的臆測是否對貿易夥伴有不敬之處，還是要謹慎處理，這個部分我只是提醒而已。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們也希望美國黃豆以最高的品質全面稽查，不要有掛一漏萬的狀況，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我們要再強調一下，現在包含專家，為什麼我們仍然還沒有讓中聯復工，就是我們認為它在製造過程應該要做品管的節點，它還沒有辦法說服我們它有好的品管。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這個部分麻煩，我只是提醒一下。現在我們看到有教授指出BaP超標的案例其實非常罕見，一般從油脂精煉的角度來看，即便是毛油的BaP含量偏高，經過脫膠、脫酸、脫色、脫臭等完整的精煉程序以後，理論上是可以把濃度下降，黃豆原料經萃取精煉就能把不是三酸甘油酯的部分拿掉，而BaP不是三酸甘油酯，它就是這個部分的成分，理論上可以透過程序降低。我要請問許主任，現在大豆製油出問題，那大豆粕呢？大豆粕跑去哪了？有沒有製成飼料？有沒有追蹤、銷燬、收回？"],["許主任輔：大豆粕大部分做為飼料用，全世界對於飼料的BaP管理都沒有訂定標準，所以現在認為進入飼料供應鏈，飼養經濟動物上面是沒有問題的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：雖然全世界沒有規範，但是我現在提出一個問題，請國人聽聽看這個部分有問題的可能性，含有BaP的原料做成飼料供飼養的動物食用，我們再來吃這些飼養的動物，這個部分我們有疑慮……"],["許主任輔：沒有問題，它會經過動物代謝，我們會請農業部來說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我認為這個部分依照法規，黃豆有問題，後面的加工就是不可以用，飼料管理法也規定飼料不可以使用變質的原料，目前大豆粕的流向為何，食安辦有沒有掌握？"],["許主任輔：大豆粕大部分是進入飼料供應鏈，小部分是進到其他食品……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這一批有問題的黃豆所製成的大豆粕，現在也是一樣做成飼料供飼養動物，我們就會懷疑，雖然世界沒有定義，但是我們會不會有疑慮？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，我補充一下，因為這些黃豆製成油，苯駢芘是溶在油裡，所以它已經在製造沙拉油的過程中被溶出來了，理論上，按照學理上來講，它是不會殘留在豆粕那一邊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我希望你們的推斷是對的，但是我還是要再次提醒，同一批黃豆所製成的大豆粕是不是有疑慮，這個部分你們應該加強一下。"],["許主任輔：好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為現階段民進黨的食安五環已經澈底破功，我們感到非常非常的擔憂，我還是要建議衛福部，針對壟斷性的大、中代工廠進行提高頻率的無預警製程抽驗，列入不定期抽查，這個部分還是要拜託食安辦完全負責協調統籌跨部會的食品管理作為，來做刑事偵查，配合調查局，配合檢調，這個部分要提醒一下。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，針對地方的抽查，我們會跟地方衛生局一起合作，因為主要抽查的是地方衛生局。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是要提醒你們要有一個角色。","第二個，我要問教育部，部長，我很直接地說，這起致癌毒油進入校園不是食安的問題，是教育主管機關教育部嚴重失職的問題，事情早在4月就發現，但到現在已經擴及20個縣市、623所學校、258所幼兒園，結果教育部的第一反應是地方政府第一線落實查核，中央主管機關的角色根本就是把監管失能全部甩脫交給第一線的地方政府。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，這個說法我們是沒有辦法接受的，因為在源頭出問題，我們7月1日就馬上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：教育部一直在講滾動式盤點，落實有疑慮就先下架的預防措施，以學生健康為唯一標準，這句話聽起來很好聽，請問……"],["鄭部長英耀：事實上也是這樣，我們能夠做的就是這樣。"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問部長，以學生健康為唯一標準，請你告訴國人，這幾個月教育部做了哪一件事情對得起這句話？你該不會要說有疑慮就先下架吧？我問你有疑慮就先下架，衛福部說20%含量的可以繼續留在貨架上，你能不能接受？"],["鄭部長英耀：只要食藥署公布的，我們馬上要求地方縣市政府，按照食藥署的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說如果有疑慮就先下架，衛福部說20%含量的可以留在貨架上，先不用下架，我問你你能不能接受？你先回答我，你能不能接受？"],["鄭部長英耀：所有的下架規定全部依據食藥署的公布，22個地方縣市教育局處馬上……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你剛剛說有疑慮就下架，就是在打臉衛福部嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們做預防性的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：衛福部說20%含量的不用下架，現在場面話大家都會講，但是重點的作為呢？政府公布問題產品的名單，只是風險揭露第一步，真正的關鍵是什麼，現在攝入致癌物質的學生，教育部下一步作為要怎麼樣負責？你告訴我。"],["鄭部長英耀：如果家長有疑慮，我們會請學校、地方縣市政府來協助，學校把名單……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不要講家長有疑慮了，全國國人一定都有疑慮，目前家長最關心的不是怎麼退貨，他們不是要那個小錢……"],["鄭部長英耀：委員讓我講完……"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們現在關心的是孩子的健康風險如何評估，要不要協助家長長期追蹤，你們有沒有醫療協助的諮商窗口，後續照顧我們的學生？"],["鄭部長英耀：這就是我要跟委員說明，委員不讓我說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，待會我讓你說明。所以我今天要提出具體的完整方案及配套，我希望教育部要講清楚說明白，請教育部儘速提出健康照護還有制度改革方案，讓食安防線不會停留在事件發生後的補救，我們要建立所謂的預防、追溯、應變、照護四大機制，請說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，事實上，這一定是中央和地方要一起合作的，營養午餐每天所有的食材全部公開透明登錄在食材平臺上，所以當7月1日食藥署一公布的時候，我們已經把22個地方縣市全部在平臺裡面掃過一次，才發現有1,380間學校用到中聯所提供的這三家油品，接著我們請22個地方縣市的教育局處馬上請學校根據品項來逐一做下架。我們教育部在這個部分跟地方是合作的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：後續的作為呢？"],["鄭部長英耀：後續的部分，剛才委員所提，我們事實上也在思考，如果學生這兩個月的時間有覺得身體不舒服、不適的話，是不是學校建立一個機制，看怎麼樣來做一個長期的追蹤。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我相信孩子不會現在感受到不適，我希望你針對623所學校、258所幼兒園來做一個長期的追蹤機制。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們中央跟地方來合作，我想……"],["羅委員廷瑋：這部分我希望你會後提供書面資料給我們，你們要怎麼具體地來做相關的機制。好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們跟地方來看怎麼樣研議有一個更好的因應作為。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再來，我想請問大專院校的部分，他們雖然不是營養午餐的系統，但是我們有沒有去關心？"],["鄭部長英耀：也有一些餐廳，7所學校……"],["羅委員廷瑋：對嘛，所以大專院校也有可能因為周邊的飲食問題，涉入到這些致癌的問題油。"],["鄭部長英耀：對不起，我們沒有辦法針對學校周邊所有社區的每一家餐廳都……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我說希望能夠關切嘛。"],["鄭部長英耀：大學裡面的餐廳，我們全部有追蹤，全部列管。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是大學外的周邊，當然可能是仰賴衛福部去做抽查……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們可以跨部會提醒……"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我希望現在還是要提醒大專院校應該要去了解一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：但是持平而論，這已經超越我們教育部的權責，不是我們事不關己，但是關心學生的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我還是提醒，第一，你可以承諾大專院校內的餐廳，但是不是也要了解一下大專院校外的餐廳，請大專院校好好地關心這件事情。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們已經全面稽查，有7所學校、16間餐廳，全部下架，食藥署所公布的，我們已經全部都做下架了，學生的安全、健康，我跟委員的心情是一樣的，我們一定要極力維護。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們要掌握啦！大專院校還有國高中以及幼兒園，都是要特別注意的。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們有充分掌握。跟委員報告，就這一件事情，我們當然不捨，有一些不良廠商做了這樣一個壞的示範，但是國教署在第一線跟地方政府的合作應該是可以肯定的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我只是要提醒你，大學生也是學生，這個部分一定要特別注意。"],["鄭部長英耀：當然。"],["羅委員廷瑋：接下來，有請所有官員回到座位上。"],["主席：請官員回到座位上，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有請主席幫我邀請信義國小教師會常務理事唐益國先生。"],["主席：請唐常務理事上臺。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，依據立法院的立法委員手冊，我們可以邀請社會相關人士來委員會跟大家分享，今天我要邀請第一線的教師來跟大家報告，來跟大家講第一線的困境、第一線的為難，也希望部長能夠好好地聽一下老師們現在的困境，他們到底是怎麼樣在第一線奮戰。","有請唐常務理事。"],["唐常務理事益國：主席、各位委員、各位長官、現場的媒體先生、小姐，大家好。感謝委員邀請我來分享教育現場的第一線真實情況，我是一名現職的國小老師，年資將近三十年，但今天我並不是來為教師爭取權益的，我是來替學生請命、替教育請命，因為教育如果失敗，最後受害的不是老師，而是整個國家的下一代。","我先分享兩個真實的案例，第一個，十年前我當導師的時候，我有一個學生國小畢業，畢業的時候，他告訴我說：老師，我長大之後，也要像你一樣當一個國小老師。我請他努力，經過三年國中、三年高中，他真的考上了教育大學，再經過四年的鍛鍊，他去年進入了教育實習的階段，可是就在實習沒有多久時，他因為提醒一個上課講話比較大聲的女學生，那個女學生頭抬起來，就對他說「看啥潲」，沒有錯，他就說了這三個字，我們大家都知道這三個字有多麼地粗魯、無理，而且還是學生對老師說的，他愣住了，幾秒鐘之後，他就默默地離開那間教室，然後請假回家整理思緒，第三天回來學校去教務處辦理終止實習，他不當老師了，十年的教師夢當場夢碎，他說他不希望未來三十年都在這樣的教育環境下工作。我想這會不會是現在教師荒的可能原因之一？","第二個故事、第二個案例，有一位老師在上課的時候用電子黑板，就是手滑式、觸控式的那一種，可能有一點接觸不良，第一時間沒有滑出正確的畫面，有一個小男生立刻就說：你是幹什麼吃的。也是對老師這樣子說。","各位，我們真正要問的是，為什麼現在越來越多的孩子會這樣子對待老師呢？教室其實就是一個縮小版的社會，各種孩子都有，而孩子最容易模仿的就是他的同儕，當少數學生可以羞辱老師而沒有明確界限的時候，其他孩子就會跟風模仿，老師原本準備了一場精彩的課，卻因為少數學生的干擾而不得不中斷，真正受傷的其實不是老師，其實也不是那些嗆聲的學生，真正受傷的是什麼？是全班二十幾個認真學習的孩子，今天被浪費的也不是一個老師的上課時間，而是一整個班級的學習時間。所以我要問了，那些守規矩、願意學習的孩子，他們的受教權又在哪呢？","我再分享一個案例，有關於校事會議，為什麼現在會有防禦式教學？有一位家長的教學理念比較開放，他常常幫女兒請三天的連假，全家出去做家庭式的教學，這很好，這沒有問題，回來之後是不是還要把學校的功課給補上呢？但是他沒有，老師依照班規，只要班上沒有繳交作業的學生，他的號碼就會被記在黑板上，等繳交完了之後，自己就可以上去把它擦掉，其實全國很多班級都是這麼處理的，這沒有問題。但是因為這位女生要繳交的東西可能太多了，他沒有及時補完，於是過了幾天之後，黑板上只剩他的名字、只剩他的號碼，他就覺得心裡不舒服，跟他媽媽反映，媽媽就跟老師溝通說是不是可以擦掉，老師就說可以，請他補交完就可以擦掉。這樣一個堅持班規、堅持教學理念的老師居然就被媽媽指控為霸凌他的孩子，這不荒謬嗎？一個老師請學生繳交作業，居然可以成為霸凌的理由，但是更荒謬的在後面，他告到了學校，校事會議還接受了，這個老師還被送進校事會議做調查，最後當然沒有解聘、停聘、不續聘這些問題，但是他還是被強迫接受了兩個月的輔導，在那裡面當然就是身心煎熬、受盡了委屈。從那之後，很多老師就開始進行所謂的防禦式教學，不是不想教、不是不想管教，而是不敢管教，不是不願意要求，而是不敢要求，因為沒有人知道下一個被送進校事會議的人會不會是自己，這就是教育現場的現況。","我想請大家注意的是，老師只是想保護自己，但真正失去的是孩子的教育品質，如果老師因為害怕而不敢管教，失去受教權的就是大多數安靜、努力、守規矩的學生，教育從來就不只是教知識而已，它更是教尊重、責任、規矩與是非，如果老師連維持秩序、連繳交作業的要求都要擔心被調查，那孩子到底要向誰學習呢？","我記得前幾個月有個教師團體上街表達訴求，教育部長的回應我記得很清楚，部長說：請他們回學校把學生給教好。我在這裡要向部長報告，我們每個老師真的都願意拿出最大的能力把學生教好，但是老師們得到的支持和他們所承擔的責任完全不成比例，政策沒有支持認真的老師、政策沒有支持認真的孩子！德國教育學家福祿貝爾的名言：教育無他，唯愛與榜樣而已。我認為教育不只是在教室裡學生跟老師之間近距離聽到、摸到、看到才叫做教育、才叫做模範，政府官員的一言一行透過媒體也都是孩子們學習的榜樣。","我們今天呼籲的不是讓教師擁有什麼特權，而是希望制度真正保護大多數孩子的受教權！最後，我懇請各位正視基層教師的吶喊、正視基層教育的困境，不要讓認真的老師寒心、不要讓認真的孩子失望！因此，我誠懇建議校事會議是否能夠儘快暫停適用，全面檢討之後，該修就修、該廢就廢，讓制度真正回到保障學生受教權的初衷！我的報告到此，謝謝大家。"],["羅委員廷瑋：麻煩主席請唐老師回去，請部長。"],["主席：請唐老師回座，有請部長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，最近有一則新聞，國中生遲到被罰抄課文、提國賠求償140萬，你知道這件事嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我知道，我看到了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我們一直在想家庭教育跟學校教育的差別到底在哪裡？我認為學校教育是培養人格的場所，我們在學校端也要盡可能地將他教好，也希望他出了社會能夠有所發展。但有沒有想過，你覺得學生畢業以後就不關教育部的問題嗎？他是內政部、法務部、勞動部、衛福部的事嗎？這個部分難道就跟教育部沒有任何關係嗎？你們在今天的書面報告指出，區分出缺席管理與獎懲是為了避免同一行為重複處理，若無法使用記警告、明確的懲處手段，僅能使用提醒、勸導、書面自省等輔導措施，往往面臨輔導成效不彰，學生無所畏懼的窘境。剛剛我們看到唐老師也提到，第一線看到孩子在言語上這麼直接，我們要問教育部，如果今天是提醒、勸導，學生一個不喜歡聽就說老師言語羞辱他、檢舉老師，最終面對校事會議的壓力要怎麼辦？如果是書面自省，學生拒絕怎麼辦？有沒有解方？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，關於剛才這位老師的分享，我想我們的想法都一樣，確保學生的受教權，然後尊重老師的專業、守護老師的專業教學，我想我們的想法、現在所有法條、規範的目標都是一致的。關於委員剛才所關心的那個案例，也非常感謝法院已經判決這一位學生跟家長是敗訴的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有錯，但是過程中他們是煎熬的。"],["鄭部長英耀：第二個，我也要跟委員還有這位老師報告，校事會議怎麼樣去處理不適任教師本來就是依據教師法訂定的，當然這有其背景，不適任教師還是要有一定的處理機制……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒有問題，處理不適任教師我們都認同，但是如何支持好的老師、好的學生嘛？"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我們感謝委員的支持，今年1月的時候我們把過去造成老師的恐慌、無謂的干擾降到最低，剛才也跟大院報告過，關於1月份委員所支持的新辦法，這個分流包含老師、主任平時怎麼樣去做好親師溝通，協助老師有更大的支持力量，數據告訴我們這些已經直接降了50%吧。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，你說降很多啦，但還是有問題……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以我要談的是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：第一線無感！"],["鄭部長英耀：第一線無感……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我先麻煩你針對我回應，我先問你，如果學生拒絕書面自省；如果老師提醒勸導的時候學生不喜歡聽，直接說老師言語羞辱他、去檢舉老師，這方面有沒有什麼解方？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想這一個部分就是我們的第一條，校長應該要承擔……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你們都要求校長承擔，為什麼不是部長承擔？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們在分流方面要勿枉勿縱，有教師代表、有家長代表、有社會公正人士、校長主持，所以這個部分我們希望在第一階段就能夠講清楚、能夠分流，因為老師……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我今天提出來的你還是要想想，如果今天書面的提醒、請他自省、勸導而學生不喜歡、不願意配合，我們要怎麼辦？我們不可能強迫他。"],["鄭部長英耀：老師本於教學專業的正當管教是不罰的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，你說對於長期出缺席異常、屢勸不聽的，在不得加以懲處的前提下，學校所能採取的是特殊管教措施，如帶回管教，規劃參加高關懷課程、心理輔導、社會服務還有其他的適性教育，這個執行門檻還有實際成效為何？教育部有沒有具體的統計數據？"],["鄭部長英耀：會後我們可以提供委員一個書面。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我相信這些東西的具體數據讓國人都擔憂，讓教學現場都覺得可能沒有辦法在具體教育現況中實施……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想委員也很清楚，教學是一個專業的工作，但它不完全是一加一等於二，因為每一個學生都有個別差異，我們也不希望貼標籤，我想對於學生而言，學校是用來輔導、教育……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你說現在要有特殊管教措施，這難道就不會給我們的孩子貼標籤嗎？你們說葉元之委員的法案會貼標籤，那你現在的特殊管教措施不會貼標籤嗎？難道不會貼標籤嗎？我問你呀！"],["鄭部長英耀：關於標籤化，基本上從學校立場來看，我們應該把它降到最低。"],["羅委員廷瑋：如果未有明顯改善出缺席的情形，在不得已、不能夠加以懲處的規範下，學校到底能做什麼？我們今天就是要探討這個問題，好好去想想這陣子為什麼所有的家長全部爆炸？出缺席、曠課、遲到不能記警告……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為依據法令當時的規定……其實跟委員報告，臺北市當時就有一個高中學生因為缺課了，然後學校記了警告，他不服……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，不能同一行為有兩次的處罰，所以你們開始規範這樣子的事情。好，我現在問你，因為判決而現在不能記警告，那我們該怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們不是……應該是說，在那個時空，我們立法院的委員對學生有許多的……希望能不能將他的受教權切開，學習的曠課當然讓學科成績受影響，也可能因為曠課時數太多而沒有辦法取得正式的畢業證書，也就是說，缺課面向上的原因比較多，我們也根據大院委員意見訂定出相關規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有些學生就不在乎，對於上場去任何的教學他不在乎，那我們要怎麼保障其他願意受教的好學生？我們又要不得懲處、又要維持秩序，學校要怎麼做嘛？一方面對學生負責，避免日後又被批評放任缺課！"],["鄭部長英耀：沒有不得懲處，老師還是可以本於專業進行教學專業的輔導跟教導，而且這方面我們也明文是不罰的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長，我沒有要你跟我辯論，你辯贏我也沒有用……"],["鄭部長英耀：我沒有要辯論，我只是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我現在就問你，對於現在的狀況，我們又要不得懲處、又要維護秩序，我們到底要怎麼樣學校才可以好好的去做？我們又怕被批評為放任缺課，在這樣的制度設計下，教育部認為學校如何實際做到報告中所說的兼顧學生權益保障又支持教師輔導管教需求？部長，你教大家！","另一個更現實的問題，未來發生學生長期缺課或者在校園內外發生傷害的時候，社會輿論第一個追究的一定是學校為什麼沒有及早介入、為什麼沒有採取更積極的管理措施……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們同意……"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天我們在講清水高級中學發生的這個憾事，我們都不捨，今天楊爸爸在現場，我們對於這些長期有問題的孩子要怎麼樣實施管教以避免日後造成更大的問題？部長，出了事以後，教育部公開替第一線老師背書、說他們依法行事，還是要回頭再檢討學校機制不夠完備。報告中我們看到對於高關懷及違規情形重大的學生，經學校相關會議議決後，以抽離式進行課程編班，依學生問題類型不同，以彈性分組教學模式安排課程。請問一下部長，面臨龐大的拒絕學習還有情緒困擾的需求，現行的資源足夠嗎？我最後要問一句，現在的學生不尊重時間，不敬老師，日後造成社會問題，會由整個社會一同承擔，我們希望部長好好想一下，今天為什麼我會辦這個專案報告……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我們確實也因應整個大環境的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：不只是家長，不只是老師，所有的委員大家都很關心，也希望你能夠好好的檢討這些政策帶來的問題。"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會跟家長團體、學生團體、老師還有地方縣市教育局處，看怎麼樣能夠有更與時俱進的管教辦法，我們一定是支持老師的，這毋庸置疑。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我今天不只是用委員的身分，我是用家長的身分在擔憂、在跟你做溝通，我希望你們真的好好想一想，謝謝。"],["鄭部長英耀：我同意老師現在面臨的挑戰確實是比以前大，我們一起來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝部長，請回座。謝謝羅召委。"],["主席（羅委員廷瑋）：下一位請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝召委，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，今天題目非常多，也都非常的重要，但是時間非常的有限，我就延續剛剛羅召委對於我們學生管教還有校事會議的部分，我們再更精準地來問一下。彭署長特別提到我們在7月15號對於校事會議的執行狀況，部長會做出一個說明，沒錯吧？對不對？所以你們現在已有結論了嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：剛才也跟委員會報告……"],["柯委員志恩：已經有報告？來，我們先看一下，到目前為止，在你們的閉門會議當中，你們很顯然是要續推校事會議，但是教師團體、剛剛也有第一線的老師來說，他們當然希望終極目標是廢除，但是很顯然的，你們是要維持校事會議，但是要讓各地方政府有調處的機制，沒錯吧？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["柯委員志恩：關於地方政府調處機制，各地方的處長還有局長都同意嗎？這是你們的共識嗎？為什麼我在地方的時候，他們都認為教育部應該讓它有一個法律的位階，如果只是讓各地方來做一個調處的機制，某種程度還是有非常大的問題，而且部長上次還特別講，很多時候會存有一些資訊的落差，你認為在1月的時候已經做了非常多的處理，包括匿名的處理等等，還有很多大小案的分流，但是外界可能不太清楚，你可以問一下所有在場的第一線老師，他們認為如果資訊有些落差的話，那一定是教育部的問題，沒有讓老師親自理解，而且最重要的是，即使如此，就算資訊很透明，但是老師在第一線仍然會深刻感受到，他們永遠都會是下一個被送進去校事會議的人，所以還是沒有辦法解決他們的焦慮。部長，這該怎麼辦？"],["鄭部長英耀：委員也很清楚校事會議，它時空上有一些特定的社會事件，所以才會在109年訂定……"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，部長，我現在就要特別提到……"],["鄭部長英耀：也跟委員報告，就算今天沒有校事會議，還是要面臨老師解聘、不續聘……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有錯，部長，你講到一個重點，我們先把我的問題問完，你講到一個很大的重點，我們都維護學生百分之百的受教權，校事會議如果只是單純處理不適任教師，而且有非常嚴重的情事，把他送進校事會議，我們沒有話講，而且只要涉及教師法第十四條到第十八條的話，你把他交給校事會議處理就好了。你現在最大的問題是，有一些班級經營上，親師之間發生言語衝突，就全部送去校事會議，這才是個最大的問題，所以你如果有辦法……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，其實從教育部的觀點來看，我們要保護學生的受教權，但我們更在意老師能不能安心的做好專業，所以……"],["柯委員志恩：是，但你現在的做法就是沒有辦法嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，事實上就是有那麼多人、家長都投訴說這個老師不適任要解聘，所以我們才要全面分流，說他沒有那麼嚴重，只要老師……"],["柯委員志恩：結果呢？但是部長，我說實在的，校事會議不是在你任內搞出來的，你現在就是要來收拾，我對你這點抱以非常大的……覺得你也很委屈啦，我們就是來解決事情的，就我來說，誠如我剛剛說的，很多班級經營上，言語引發的誤解，可以不用送進來，在過去的時候，這些就是全部送進校事會議，你看有一個最簡單的部分，在你的解聘辦法當中，109年公布的只有3,855個字，113年你修正後，增加到1萬1,696個字，洋洋灑灑，搞到校園裡面雞飛狗跳，到了今年，你所修正的字數更多，在所有的部分裡面，部長，我告訴你，你目前是匿名不受理，案件是有減少，但是教育現場失序混亂，凡檢舉必成案的陷阱，還是有很多事後沒有辦法解決，今天的爭議就在這地方嘛！不適任教師的解聘，以前的就行之有年，就可以處理很多事情，你需要搞一個最前面的部分，然後大家已經雞飛狗跳，老師都不想留了，你們又開始來告訴大家說：好，我們來解決，來解決分流的問題，我們有個調解的機制，地方政府可以授權，這中間你耗了多少時間？所有還待在這個地方的老師，我都佩服他們的韌性，部長，難道不是嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們1月通過的，我們教育部要怎麼樣來加強宣導，還有22個地方縣市教育局處要怎麼樣去加強他們在地的……"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得到目前為止，你做了這些，我就是在等你7月15號完整的部分，我只能告訴你……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，連我們召集委員的選區臺中市，校事會議都減少了52%，那個案件都減少了52%。"],["柯委員志恩：你問在場的老師，減少的部分是來自於老師根本不敢管、不想管，所以你的案件數字變少，真的是來自於這個部分嗎？你要看到數字背後的本質問題啊！老師不想管，不想得罪家長，當然就沒有這些事情啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：委員也很清楚……"],["柯委員志恩：你讓這整個校園變成什麼樣子？數字下降絕對不是一個解方。"],["鄭部長英耀：很多部分我同意不能直接用因果關係，但是至少我們所有的data跟地方的座談是往好的方向……"],["柯委員志恩：如果是往好的方向，就不會有一個鐵拳教育，引發這麼多老師的共鳴……"],["鄭部長英耀：我只能講，我們也希望它能夠更快讓第一線的老師能夠穩下來、能夠安心……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，如果是這樣子的話，你真的也到各處去，特別去到彰化，你特別去問彰化教育處、問彰化的第一線老師，你這麼關心彰化沒有問題，他們真的有……"],["鄭部長英耀：不只是彰化，我還到金門、馬祖……"],["柯委員志恩：他們都有感受到……校事會議的存在對老師來說，到目前為止，他們真的有覺得自己都不會是下一個嗎？你有沒有問問第一線的老師？如果有的話，我們這些老師就不會有這麼沉重的說明，更何況你剛剛所知道的，關於學生出勤管理的部分，你看，召委特別排了這個專案，目前來說，最有名的就是遲到被罰寫，要求償140萬，我想以教育的觀點來看，教育部今天的報告當中提到要持續兼顧學生的權益，支持老師的輔導管教需求，我們一樣要問，給老師管教需求的底線到底在哪裡？因為很多人會非常的擔心，因為他們很擔心沒有辦法……而且張廖次長還特別說，老師不需要懼怕對學生正當的管教，老師不需懼怕嗎？你問在場的老師，老師現在就是非常的懼怕，因為他們認為隨時做的一些事情都有可能被訴，即使最後判他們一切無罪，但是這整個過程中的煎熬，所以大家真的很無奈。","而且剛有人提出一個，以目前來說，高中職老師特別無奈，他們說到目前為止，畢業率下滑到90.3%，沒有錯吧？然後你告訴我們，目前高中生、高中職有1萬6,510人沒有拿到畢業證書，可是你們告訴我們，未取得畢業證書不等於沒有完成高中學業，還是可以選擇以同等學力去考試，而且還可以再回來高中，到了大學之後，還是可以回到高中，有一位高中校長告訴我，現在拿到高中畢業的證書，比拿到大學畢業證書還要困難，沒有人會再回來，但是部長，說實在的，就是因為現在有很多學生，他即使放空、他即使什麼事都不做、他沒有畢業，他照樣可以往前走，但這真的是我們教育的目的嗎？老師不敢管教、不想管，怕觸怒家長，所以他乾脆就把他的書全部教完，然後學生愛聽不聽，隨便他，反正沒有畢業證書，他照樣可以往前走，到目前為止，你認為教育應該就是這樣子讓他自由放任，完全不要讓老師有任何的管教權嗎？","部長，這才是我們目前的現況，寬容成了我們臺灣教育的慢性毒藥，這真的是一個校長非常、非常沉痛的部分，寬容成了我們臺灣教育的慢性毒藥，你看看，不交作業、缺考、蹺課、通知家長但不來、上課睡覺、拿不到畢業證書也不擔心，這是我們目前的教育現象，部長，這是我們要的嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：當然不是。"],["柯委員志恩：你給老師什麼大家所說的不要害怕去管教，老師能不害怕嗎？即使把數字降低了，但是實質存在老師心裡的陰影，隨時變成下一個可能會被調查的，這個問題沒有解決耶！部長，如果回到過去，不適任老師用教師法這個解聘的方法，所以這就是今天我們為什麼在這個地方要求把解聘辦法退回去修正的原因嘛！如果照這個方法讓它過的話，很多老師會跳腳的，所以你們退回去修正嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，如果以去年我進來之前所有的案例跟校園的執行情形，我告訴委員，如果沒有今天的改變，只有更慘烈。"],["柯委員志恩：誰造成這種慘烈？以前教育沒有這麼慘烈耶！"],["鄭部長英耀：因為濫訴、因為不具名，很多違反民主法治的……"],["柯委員志恩：始作俑者是哪裡？為什麼我們現在要討論到具名、不具名這麼細節的技術問題？這只是在老師被告的時候，你們現在用一個技術性的部分去讓它減少……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為在109年那時候……"],["柯委員志恩：但是更之前呢？我要討論的是綜合性的問題啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：學校裡面因為發生了這些不幸的事件，老師被社會大眾認為是師師相護，連臺中市政府要介入都不得其門而入……"],["柯委員志恩：所以校事會議……"],["鄭部長英耀：所以才會有這樣的辦法……"],["柯委員志恩：部長，我知道……"],["鄭部長英耀：立法院才會……"],["柯委員志恩：但是你有沒有覺得，我們也不希望總有慘事發生，為了這件事情，在引發更大的機制出來之後，卻引發更大的老師恐慌跟反彈，你還是認為校事會議的機制有解決問題嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想委員也很清楚，我們現在很努力積極地希望能夠營造更友善的校園，親師一定要合作。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我最後問一句，部長，所以校事會議廢除還是你最終的目標嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：這當然是，如果能夠回到正常，當親師合作，老師、學生、家長大家彼此信任，能夠有一個更好的學習環境，我相信沒有人會反對。"],["柯委員志恩：當然！"],["鄭部長英耀：這時候就回到專業的校教評會裡面，針對不適任的老師去做處理。"],["柯委員志恩：所以以目前來說，沒有辦法回到專業的教評會就是因為還有很多更嚴重的事情要處理，是這樣子嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["柯委員志恩：然後呢？我幫你釐清，所以你們現在要降低的就是有關親師之間的管教問題，在問題裡面……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們希望……"],["柯委員志恩：就不要再讓它進到校事會議，這可以做得到嘛，對不對？"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["柯委員志恩：只有一些非常嚴重、不適任的部分……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們現在所有的努力跟委員所提的是一致的。"],["柯委員志恩：符合教師法第十四條到第十八條的就可以這樣子嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["柯委員志恩：這個部分你要堅守住，可是我告訴你，聽聽地方老師的聲音，如果沒有辦法好好地讓老師覺得他的教學權是可以受到保障的，很多家長無理的要求是可以讓學校在第一線做處理的，我告訴你，老師的恐懼，留不住老師還是會繼續持續下去的。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我這兩年一直在地方跑，就是在傾聽家長的聲音、老師的聲音，我也希望各種團體的聲音能夠讓學校更好，我想這是我們一致的目標。"],["柯委員志恩：廢除是終極的目標，我們就來看看在這個過程當中……"],["鄭部長英耀：我也希望老師……"],["柯委員志恩：可以如何能夠回到我們最專業的。最後，我還是利用時間來問一下有關教育經費的部分，你也很清楚，窮不能窮孩子，關於這一部分，我比較遺憾的地方是，財劃法修法之後，很多的錢是下放給地方，但是以這個部分來說，中央是減少3,753億的收入，按比例來說的話，教育經費的分擔只要減少155億就可以了，但是主計總處硬要減少500億，這就是告訴我們，有345億的教育經費是超減的。部長，怎麼可以用這個方法來對我們的教育經費做這樣的處理？所以我們目前跟很多的民間教育團體來大聲疾呼，我們應該明確分擔12.9%的底線，教育部不應該拿財政紀律法來當擋箭牌，因為是超減三百多億，要根據12.9%，這是不受任何法令的，你們不要拿這個東西來當擋箭牌，12.9%是我們的底線，有沒有辦法做到？"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，我們現在在努力的是，在財劃法修法之後，中央包括行政一般獎補助有關教育這個區塊到地方去，還有教育部這一塊到地方去，我們希望把它臚列出來，讓地方縣市教育局處能夠根據這個跟縣市首長說……"],["柯委員志恩：對啦！但是部長，我就告訴你，你應該只須……"],["鄭部長英耀：因為原來中央支持地方教育的……"],["柯委員志恩：當然，把教育放回到地方去，很清楚地，幫你們算出來了，大概只要減少155億就可以了，但到目前為止減到500億，我就跟你說是超減了。就是要有底線，我的底線很簡單，守住12.9%的底線，因為在財政紀律法第七條，你們常常拿出法來說，但是法律可以修，財政紀律法不是財政憲法，而是一部普通法律，所以不能凌駕於其他法律，更不能阻止立法委員來做這樣一個事情，所以我今天特別提出來，任何保障教育經費比例的法律一概不得來做這樣的……並沒有規定喔！部長，請你看清楚，不應該是拒絕修法的藉口，我現在只是很卑微的希望能夠擋住12.9%，即使過去大家要修財劃法……"],["鄭部長英耀：我想教育經費的提升，我們的目標是一致的。"],["柯委員志恩：即使以前大家要修財劃法，不管中央跟地方怎麼拼，整個12.9%的底線，還是要求中央應該來分擔。部長，你就應該好好地跟行政院表達教育部的立場，這些部分不能夠轉嫁給地方。我還是強調，減收三百多億，這個部分是部長應該替我們守住的，不要每次都拿財劃法來說，財劃法有它的細緻、財劃法有它的分裂。"],["鄭部長英耀：各部會跟地方縣市教育局處能夠一起合作……"],["柯委員志恩：當然啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：我們一定希望這些錢、所有的資源，該用在教育的不要變成用到其他地方。"],["柯委員志恩：這是我們共同的目標，我剛剛條列了非常多，所以希望部長、大家能夠共同來配合，不要什麼事情都拿財劃法，然後把它一箭擋下，好像財劃法是萬惡不赦，一來地方都沒有錢，不是的，很多的錢……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們只是擔心原來屬於中央補助、支持地方的教育經費被拿到其他地方，我想這個部分我們會……"],["柯委員志恩：當然是嘛！所以你把餅做大，12.9%的部分把它守住，我們就可以守住，以目前來說，還少了356億，這點是要特別告訴部長的，謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員指正。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","下一位請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-19","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","蔡春綢","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","許忠信","吳沛憶","洪孟楷","張雅琳","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","葛如鈞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-13"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許輔列席\n就「校園食品安全把關機制及致癌油事件因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部\n部長鄭英耀列席就「學生出缺勤管理及校園秩序維護政策亂象檢討與改善措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢；三、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分\n條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案；四、審查(一)\n國民黨黨團擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員林德福等25人擬具\n「教育經費編列與管理法增訂第三條之二條文草案」案、(三)委員邱鎮軍等28人擬具「教育經費\n編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員徐欣瑩等29人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第\n三條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員葉元之等21人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委\n員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員王鴻薇等18人\n擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員陳超明等17人擬具「教育經費\n編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第\n三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員萬美玲等17人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正\n草案」案、( 十二) 委員翁曉玲等18 人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(十三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員柯\n志恩等21人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條、第十條及第十三條條文修正草案」案；五、審\n查委員葉元之等19人擬具「國民轉介教育條例草案」案；六、繼續審查(一)委員范雲等16人擬具\n「學校供餐法草案」案、(二)委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(三)委員魯明哲等\n24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五)委員\n洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n(七)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、(八)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及\n營養促進條例草案」案、(九)委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等\n16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一)委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教\n育法草案」案、(十二)委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三)委員\n陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等\n以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、(十五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草\n案」案、(十六)委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七)委員陳秀寳等20\n人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十八)委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食\n供餐法草案」案、( 二十一) 委員邱鎮軍等25 人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、( 二十二) 委員羅廷瑋等20 人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、\n( 二十三) 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、( 二十四) 委員葛如鈞等17 人擬具\n「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 二十五) 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」\n案、( 二十六) 委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、( 二十七) 委員王美惠等19 人擬具\n「學校飲食法草案」案、(二十八)委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、(二十九)\n委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、(三十)委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午\n餐法草案」案、(三十一)委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、 (三\n十二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三\n十三)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三十\n四 ) 委員林月琴等 29 人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案、 ( 三十五 ) 委員游顥等 17 人擬具\n「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案、(三十六)委員顏寬恒等18人擬具「校園飲食均\n衡及健康促進法草案」案、( 三十七) 委員吳思瑤等17 人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(三十八)委員張智倫等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三十\n九)委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案；七、審查委員羅智強等 20人擬具「學校營養\n飲食供餐法草案」案（第四、五案詢答）","agenda_id":"1156102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}