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慢慢請部長 謝謝有請部長"},{"start":22.025,"end":43.701,"text":"委員好部長好首先我非常先跟昭偉感謝一下今天特別有排我的提案就是國民轉介教育條例草案這個就是安心上學法案我先講一下我們當初提這個案子最主要想要解決校園安全的問題因為像幾年前在新北市發生了土城的割井案"},{"start":44.702,"end":70.734,"text":"還有我們看到前一段時間也有新北市另外一個國中有學生拿著鋁棒往另外一個學生的頭上敲下去那個聲音非常清脆一不小心可能就有生命的危險昨天我在網路上也看到一個影片是好幾個學生在打架打得非常兇狠然後老師要去勸架老師完全都沒有辦法甚至於其他學生還說老師小心"},{"start":71.494,"end":96.695,"text":"像這樣子一個危險的學生在校園裡面其實如果只要一個學校有一個的話整個全校都會非常害怕那我們為了要保護善良的學生我們為了要保護老師能夠在學校好好的教書我們為了要保護所有想要上課的學生在學校可以好好的上課我覺得如果有一些特別危險的"},{"start":98.096,"end":126.831,"text":"學生比如說平常帶刀上課比如說對其他師生有生命安全的這一種學生我們應該要有一個機制透過專家評估強制他轉學轉學到一個教育部另外設立的專屬學校而且加強資源我覺得這個是為了要解決教育現場現在失序的問題但很遺憾我看到教育部的報告完全都是用負面的角度來解讀這個法案"},{"start":127.831,"end":150.556,"text":"講了一個東西啊說應該要行政先行去標籤化什麼叫行政先行去標籤化就是說標籤化就是司法嘛然後說在司法介入之前應該要由教育、社政等行政體系優先提供關懷與輔導避免兒少因為偏差的行為直接進入到司法程序而承受負面標籤第一啊"},{"start":152.372,"end":181.143,"text":"其實你如果說用教育部你現在在報告裡面所提出來的那些所謂的機制比如說叫他上高關懷課程比如說叫他去中途學校這就給他標籤化了啦這就是標籤化了啦第二個行政先行就是沒有用嘛現在教育部要去思考的是怎麼樣在你所謂的在加害的同學的去標籤化的這個利益以及教學秩序的這個利益兩個球去平衡哪個重要嘛"},{"start":181.903,"end":205.14,"text":"因為你不想要讓加害者有標籤化所以整個教育市場就失序然後學生就應該要受害你知道像一個學校只要有一個我剛剛講的那種學生他怎麼樣才可以離開教學現場嗎有人被殺啦有人受害啦才有辦法離開我們難道就要讓這個憾事持續在校園發生嗎部長敢保證嗎所以"},{"start":209.261,"end":232.209,"text":"部長我這個等一下再跟你討論好了啦部長先回座我現在因為今天特別有請到我們這個就剛剛我提到了國三生哥景岸清水高中的很不幸過世的楊同學的爸爸楊爸爸到現場我想要請楊爸爸到我們備詢有請楊先生請到備詢台"},{"start":241.826,"end":268.219,"text":"楊爸我跟你請教一下以您的這個自身的案例您覺得以現在的教育體制楊同學有辦法被保護住嗎楊爸您可以部長也在台下您看看有什麼話可以跟他說其實以我現在來看我兒子還是沒辦法被保護住為什麼這兩個小朋友就像"},{"start":269.74,"end":295.817,"text":"鐵拳教育的第六級一樣他們認為他們就是未成年他們有無底星星了更何況劇中的那幾個小朋友都會假裝的90度鞠躬我們的呢沒有他們是更離譜真的非常離譜的兩個人結果呢"},{"start":299.113,"end":325.788,"text":"他們今天兩個是先後到清水高中為什麼他們之前的行政廚藝一堆真的行政廚藝一堆你們講很多都講說你們行政廚藝做得很好為什麼行政廚藝變成養了兩個殺人犯出來呢這叫做你們的行政廚藝嗎"},{"start":327.588,"end":354.776,"text":"我不相信你們的行聖廚藝是這種方式的難道是應該這麼講你們只是讓他抄寫佛經、心經有用嗎如果有用的話那我們以後的小孩子通通叫他們抄寫佛經、心經每個都可以成仙成佛了是這樣子嗎他們抄寫沒有用嘛"},{"start":356.854,"end":381.966,"text":"然後你們只是就是所謂的行政處遇所謂的行政處遇是什麼我不知道我真的不知道我們違規我們闖紅燈違規都還要去上課上完課還要考試這些小朋友有沒有考試過你們有沒有跟他們上過法學的課程沒有"},{"start":383.413,"end":407.885,"text":"你跟我說你們司法接不住我要來接住嗎你認為我能夠怎麼接更何況今天老師的管理權沒有了我兒子風氣鼓掌就因為這樣子來上面"},{"start":411.107,"end":431.317,"text":"你沒有給老師管理權,我兒子在當你們的管理權,這樣是對嗎?你這樣子等於說,那以後你也不要去射所謂的風紀鼓掌什麼通,鼓掌通不用了嘛因為你老師都沒有管理權你那些學生有什麼管理權?跟我說這個有什麼用?你不賦予給老師管理權,沒有"},{"start":444.093,"end":467.703,"text":"你們一直說不要標籤化不要標籤化這兩個小朋友一直在標籤化自己你們知道林生在那個學期就至少超過50支警告嗎你們知不知道他們有50支警告以上缺礦課也好幾堂"},{"start":471.448,"end":499.119,"text":"你們還要他們的受教權還要他們的人權我不知道你們在講什麼東西啊他們的受教權跟人權結果害了那麼多學生的受教權沒了安全也沒了為了這兩個小朋友其他的安全人身安全沒了他們也沒辦法受教了"},{"start":500.745,"end":530.02,"text":"你知道他們那一年的會考所有同學的成績全部是落了一塌糊塗嗎不知道嘛他們接受多少輔導教育我所知道的五千人次以上就這個案子你們一直講他們的受教權人權老師連收書包什麼都沒有"},{"start":532.418,"end":553.41,"text":"你知道郭生是哪時候拿刀嗎監察院講的但才在他前一年的9月還是7月就開始拿刀學校都不知道然後在我的二嬸最後一庭他自己承認他國一就拿刀了有人知道嗎"},{"start":558.988,"end":563.189,"text":"你這個學生你不標籤起來誰能夠防得住這個人你告訴我誰能夠防得住這個人他從國一就開始拿刀了耶我真的不知道其實我今天會來我是希望"},{"start":585.643,"end":611.934,"text":"真的校安問題大家要去好好解決不要再讓我跟我兒子一樣這樣子受害我三年來這快要三年了我每天都睡不好沒有人知道我的痛大家都說感同身受你們去受受看我不希望真的還有下一個人謝謝"},{"start":616.397,"end":620.739,"text":"好 謝謝楊爸 楊爸請回座那主席麻煩請部長有請部長部長部長"},{"start":631.98,"end":659.471,"text":"就是我覺得我是想要跟你很正面來討論這個法案大家都不要有陷入為主那也可以理解你希望說不要讓有一些學生標籤化可以理解您的用心但我覺得教育現場現在是要有所取捨所以說到底應該要多站在加害者這邊考量還是為了要維護整個教育秩序的考量教育秩序又包括要保護很多善良的好學生"},{"start":660.509,"end":677.203,"text":"所以如果說我們今天想要保護更多的善良學員像誠如剛剛楊爸所講的班上只要有類似郭男這種乾哥乾姐一個在班上全班成績全部都都沒有辦法得到好的為什麼 因為大家很害怕啊"},{"start":678.783,"end":707.902,"text":"然後甚至生命也有威脅啊那你現在你的報告所提出來的所有的辦法完全沒有辦法解決這個問題嘛你看你們講了很多你說會根據學生輔導法加強輔導資源沒有用輔導就是沒有用啊然後另外你說會有辭輝針對就學適應問題辭輝班這些這些主要是針對錯學生啊也不是針對這些有高風險的學生啊然後其他還有就是像最後一個"},{"start":708.983,"end":736.2,"text":"少年法庭裁定進入矯正教育這個是他已經犯法他已經殺人了那我想要解決的問題是什麼呢我想要解決的問題就是他有問題但他還沒有到殺人的時候我們不能夠等到他殺人才離開啊我們怎麼在他還沒有犯法之前評估他有極高的風險可能會做出傷害別人的事情的時候我們有個專家機制然後強制他轉學到一個教育部所設立一個專屬的學校或機構"},{"start":738.746,"end":752.014,"text":"這個我們可以討論技術性的問題我們可以討論可是我覺得方向上你光是講說這個東西會標籤化我就覺得你沒有用很正面的態度來看待我想要解決這個問題的心"},{"start":753.871,"end":777.871,"text":"市長先讓你簡單回應一下謝謝委員提醒 確實我想加害者的權益我們不應該他應該要對他的行為付出責任或者我們講飛行少年到還沒當他沒有真正到這個自然生命上的一些安全危險的時候我們怎麼樣學校的系統有一個更好的一個處置的一個方案我想我們"},{"start":778.992,"end":805.583,"text":"認真來思考這一個議題然後照委員所說的學者專家包括教育現場我們來看怎麼樣來處理這一塊你現在就是沒有辦法因為部長我關心這個議題兩年多了嘛所以委員希望有一個中介的一個學校一個學校一個中介它可能是機構可能是學校或者可能是一個什麼樣的一個形態我想我們認真的思考其實我有思考到就是說我們"},{"start":807.084,"end":820.277,"text":"最不要用他標籤的話就是讓他轉學到那個專屬學校那個學校也是可以正常上課嘛你也是上然後上他喜歡的課程啊然後你加強輔導啊你找很會就是一些教育團體啊應該他們都"},{"start":821.778,"end":845.382,"text":"確實我們因為這一個班級學校的一個教育裡面他這個班級統一的一個教材統一的一個課程所以我們也感謝委員這個大英過去有所謂的實驗教育有許多的home schooling那對這些所謂的他可能學校的功課他找不到興趣也許讓他有一些更有是一個另類的一些學習的課程的一個我想"},{"start":846.082,"end":863.694,"text":"這本來是我們對高關懷學生設計的一個初衷但是這一個如果還沒有等於說沒有辦法看起來我們還有許多的校園的一些這個問題沒有辦法這個解決我們來思考是不是有一個另熱心的一個部長那個因為"},{"start":866.997,"end":882.568,"text":"其實我談這個議題談很多你應該也知道我很關心在總諮詢的時候也問過卓院長也跟你談過非常多次你們都沒有動所以我就直接立法了也謝謝趙偉排我們公聽會今天詢答接下來我們就可以直接處理法條了"},{"start":883.388,"end":904.093,"text":"那我是希望我們處理法條的時候教育部可以有一個對岸來這邊你也可以提出你的看法出來也許你覺得我的不夠成熟但我想要解決問題你可以提一個你覺得更成熟的大家來集思廣益把問題解決不要就像楊爸講的他其實他很難過他兒子已經回不來了但他不希望"},{"start":905.213,"end":933.519,"text":"就另外一個類似他兒子的狀況出現嘛是不要有下一個楊爸爸嘛所以楊爸爸今天願意來我也非常感謝他也讓部長知道現行的機制就是沒辦法解決楊同學遇害的問題我們不要再下一個楊同學部長可以嗎有好那部長那這個拜託再積極一點好謝謝部長謝謝然後再來喔部長那因為今天我們還有討論一個就是有關於出缺席不缺席的一個問題喔"},{"start":935.185,"end":952.75,"text":"我看到上上禮拜教育部是有秀一個圖卡出來特別有強調說學生遲到旷課不是沒事因為之前是有傳出來就說遲到旷課不能記警告後來有宣傳大波教育部就出來說明了說沒有記警告但是不是沒事"},{"start":954.005,"end":981.273,"text":"因為學生遲到旷課也是要為自己負責然後老師仍可依法管教學生這個我蠻建議部長如果你們部裡面有官員你可以建議他到學校去擔任一日導師試試看你們的這個方法到底管不管得了學生第一個說通知家長督導孩子改善這個很多老師講"},{"start":982.679,"end":988.124,"text":"有些學生他就是習慣性的遲到或習慣性的缺課他每天早上都要去找那個家長"},{"start":989.215,"end":1018.374,"text":"家長也很難找那找到了家長也無所謂所以學生很常會這種缺課的問題有時候也是家長不在乎所以又一直叫老師去通知家長老師什麼事都不用做了啊只要通知家長就好所以這個是很不切實際然後再來就是提醒勸導提醒勸導兇一點啊學生就回過來投訴你啊然後不然的話你要求他書面反省對 你可以要他書面反省啊他還要告訴你我不想啊我不想要書面反省 怎麼樣"},{"start":1019.695,"end":1037.867,"text":"然後適當的靜坐站立反省一樣又回到剛剛講的現在只要多管教學生兇了一點點就很容易被投入到校事會議列入日常生活表現記錄老師拿一個小本本記錄下來也純記錄而已達不到什麼實質的效果"},{"start":1038.607,"end":1058.94,"text":"然後教育部講說這個不用學生自己遲到礦課就是要負責啊對不對這個每一個人要為自己的人生負責啊沒錯 沒錯然後講說呢初學期會列入管理該科成績可能不及格可能影響畢業資格但是因為現在以前記過大家會比較緊張原因是因為"},{"start":1060.576,"end":1081.103,"text":"季過可能會留校查看可能會退學現在季過根本沒差10個大過20個大過都沒有差那影響畢業資格我們可以看一下影響畢業資格其實也是蠻困難的為什麼呢因為你國中三年的總堂數大概是4200堂你要缺課超過1400堂"},{"start":1083.883,"end":1096.661,"text":"你才拿不到畢業證書等於是你一週可以缺課超過十堂十堂以內都是合理的範圍這個拿到畢業證書門檻非常低那就算拿不到畢業證書就算缺課實在非常多拿不到畢業證書"},{"start":1097.952,"end":1122.332,"text":"也可以有休業證書休業證書照樣可以升學所以我現在不是要來挑戰教育部講這個圖我只是說你們所提到提出來的所有的管教方法在一線是完全沒有用那完全沒有用會產生什麼狀況呢破窗效應只要班上有幾個學生是習慣性的缺課或遲到整個班就非常難帶老師會很難帶這個班"},{"start":1125.134,"end":1144.942,"text":"所以部長可以去統計一下不同的縣市每個學生平均到了期末的時候因為缺課會預警你去調查一下全班大概幾分之幾的要被預警我的了解大概五分之一到十分之一的學生因為缺課遲到被預警"},{"start":1146.178,"end":1161.115,"text":"所以這個是很嚴重的事這個不是說教育部PO一個圖表好像問題就解決了我真建議教育部的官員當一日導師試試看你去了解一下現在的教學現場是有多麼的難管理部長您了解這個狀況嗎"},{"start":1164.813,"end":1179.681,"text":"簡單回答一下我確實在這個現場裡面有多少比例學生缺礦課整班的這個我確實是比較陌生比較陌生我是跟你講你們提出來的那些方法"},{"start":1180.543,"end":1204.56,"text":"你們提出那些方法都沒有用而且很多老師還覺得哇賽現在教育部在教老師怎麼去管學生我想委員我必須要同意委員一定程度的看法就是社會在快速的一個發展那我們怎麼樣學校教育的管教辦法能夠以時俱進這我們來這一個來討論要提辦法出來啦部長好不好提辦法出來大概什麼時候可以提一個辦法出來"},{"start":1205.16,"end":1230.155,"text":"我想我們還是跟這個家長老師學生討論然後真正做一個比較確合第一線上真正實際的一個情況來其實你可以看一下你的那個教育部的臉書那天PO那個圖表出來下面有兩三千則留言你可以去看他們的留言那都很多我看好像都是一線老師的回應那也是你輿情收集的方式"},{"start":1230.695,"end":1245.637,"text":"所以教育部不要說只會PO圖啦應該社群不是只是在澄清啦重點還是要收集輿情還有一個點就是最近大家在討論這個正向教育正向教育那"},{"start":1246.957,"end":1274.87,"text":"正向教育不是不好正向教育非常好非常好但是正向教育當初一開始的時候是針對家庭教育就是說希望爸媽在對小朋友教育的時候要用正向教育那如果放到學校一對多的時候你全部都用正向教育同樣的也會面臨到教學跟教育次序孰輕孰重的一個落差我就舉這個教育部的範例你看一下"},{"start":1276.965,"end":1303.545,"text":"不敢看一下喔 右邊是您的範例他說有個同學大聲罵同學罵學校老師一開始不能夠跟那個學生說老師一開始不能夠制止他要用正向教育要怎麼說呢老師要去跟同學說關於羅廷偉同學你大聲罵同學罵學校這件事情老師可以了解你對同學學校很關心這是很好的以後你還是要繼續關心同學"},{"start":1305.612,"end":1330.449,"text":"但是方法不對 你可能會傷害別人假設今天有一個同學他就是很惡意的亂罵同學 罵三字經講得很難聽 霸凌同學然後結果老師碰到這一位同學一開始的時候還要說關於你霸凌同學這件事情很好表示你關心同學"},{"start":1331.684,"end":1338.993,"text":"或他罵三字經問候人家媽媽關於你問候人家媽媽這件事情很好表示你關心人家媽媽這我覺得太不切實際了吧"},{"start":1343.223,"end":1368.495,"text":"委員我想有幾多的案例它確實教育的現場的困境就是你不能用一個案例去解釋所有的就是說範例它自己一個情形那你給大家的範例人家就會照做人家也很怕被投訴啊像我直接講說你直接三資金甚至有幾多的這些我想它一定有不同的處理方式不是 部長當然這個因為你這個範例你是抽象的嘛"},{"start":1369.175,"end":1392.29,"text":"當然他要含涉很多實際狀況但我講的也是罵同學的狀況所以你說把正向教育簡化成形式形式上的向上 正向這其實是形式上正向你反而忽略了教育的內涵而且你這個一開始的時候還肯定不當行為背後的想像動機這等於是有點主動幫做錯事的孩子找藉口"},{"start":1393.479,"end":1414.06,"text":"另外我覺得一個重點教育秩序的維護你忽略被罵同學被影響者的感受其實你還是傷害了其他孩子的受教權所以其實我們現在講的很多東西都是環環相扣的就是我們現在所面臨到的現在的教育現場是非常複雜的跟以前已經很不一樣了造成教育現場的失序"},{"start":1415.339,"end":1437.892,"text":"是時候針對我們這幾年教改很多學者專家所提出來他們認為很好的教育方式我覺得是時候好好的檢討一下正向教育沒有說一定不好可是你檢討他的適用的方式或者是檢討他的執行方式還有就是面對那些加害者同學的受教權是不是過度的保護"},{"start":1439.266,"end":1459.985,"text":"然後另外就是老師的管教權是不是不斷的限縮導致於老師面對學生沒有工具造成現場的失序我覺得這個是一個整體的問題所以我今天因為有很多像校職會議我之前都跟部長討論過我今天都不浪費時間但是我覺得這個是整體的問題所以真心的很希望部長"},{"start":1461.277,"end":1487.053,"text":"我們就面對問題把教育現場的思緒問題好好導正因為我覺得現在的問題真的是還蠻嚴重的部長簡單回應一下謝謝委員提醒我想與時俱進的一個不管老師的一個管教權專業管教權跟學生的許多行為的規範特別在國民教育裡面是非常重要我也完全同意委員所提的我們來"},{"start":1489.755,"end":1506.293,"text":"來看怎麼樣來以時俱進是可以盡快好不好大概您什麼時候大概會給我們一個大概的方向我想我們我們一方面給這個跟學者專家請教學者專家也跟團體包含學生過去確實有以學生為主學生的受教權"},{"start":1507.594,"end":1532.921,"text":"不容挑戰但是我們怎麼樣去保護真正學習的學生或者有一些行為已經預約規範的我們怎麼樣把它導正我想這一個確實它是一個需要一些時間我們來把它想的想一個比較清楚的能夠歸納我們大家第一線上特別老師們的一些建議學生的建議因為一樣的學生今天因為有一位同學的干擾"},{"start":1533.841,"end":1545.095,"text":"讓他們沒有辦法安心學習我想這些我們都一併把他拉進來來研議看怎麼樣有一個更適當的以此進行的方法好謝謝希望部長盡快謝謝好謝謝部長請回我們先休息五分鐘稍後"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:05.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:05.855000+08:00","text":"主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:05.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:06.075000+08:00","text":"有請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:14.025000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:14.245000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:14.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:15.006000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:15.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:31.638000+08:00","text":"首先我先感謝召委，今天特別有排我的提案「國民轉介教育條例草案」，即安心上學法案，我先講一下，我們當初提這個案子最主要想要解決校園安全的問題。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:31.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:06:51.289000+08:00","text":"因為像幾年前在新北市發生了土城的割頸案，還有我們看到前一段時間也有新北市另外一個國中，有學生拿著鋁棒往另外一個學生的頭上敲下去，那個聲音非常清脆，一不小心可能就有生命的危險。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:06:51.289000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:07:02.714000+08:00","text":"昨天我在網路上也看到一個影片，是好幾個學生在打架，打得非常兇狠，然後老師要去勸架，老師完全都沒有辦法，甚至於其他學生還說：老師小心。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:07:03.494000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:07:13.262000+08:00","text":"像這樣一個危險的學生在校園裡面，其實只要學校有一個的話，全校都會非常害怕。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:07:14.203000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:07:52.928000+08:00","text":"我們為了要保護善良的學生，我們為了要保護老師能夠在學校好好的教書，我們為了要保護所有想要上課的學生在學校可以好好的上課，我覺得如果有一些特別危險的學生，比如說平常帶刀上課的，比如對其他師生有生命安全威脅的這一種學生，我們應該要有一個機制，透過專家評估，強制他轉學，轉學到教育部另外設立的專屬學校，而且加強資源，我覺得這是為了解決目前教育現場失序的問題。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:07:52.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:08:06.172000+08:00","text":"但很遺憾，我看到教育部的報告完全都是用負面的角度來解讀這個法案，講了一個東西說應該要行政先行、去標籤化，什麼叫行政先行、去標籤化？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:08:08.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:08:22.336000+08:00","text":"標籤化就是司法，在司法介入之前，應該要有教育、社政等行政體系優先提供關懷與輔導，避免兒少因為偏差的行為直接進入到司法程序而承受負面標籤。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:08:22.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:08:37.877000+08:00","text":"但是第一，其實你如果用教育部現在在報告裡面所提出來的那些機制，比如說叫他上高關懷課程，比如說叫他去中途學校，這就是給他標籤化了，這就是標籤化了啦！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:08:38.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:08:53.123000+08:00","text":"第二個，行政先行就是沒有用，現在教育部要去思考的是，在加害者身上去標籤化的利益以及維持教學秩序的利益，兩個求取平衡看哪個重要嘛！","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:08:53.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:01.389000+08:00","text":"因為你不想要讓加害者有標籤化，所以整個教育市場就失序，然後學生就應該要受害？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:02.309000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:08.414000+08:00","text":"你知道學校只要有一個我剛剛講的那種學生，他怎麼樣才可以離開教學現場嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:08.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:16.520000+08:00","text":"有人被殺，有人受害，才有辦法離開，難道就要讓這種憾事持續在校園發生嗎？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:16.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:16.980000+08:00","text":"部長敢保證嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:21.261000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:27.103000+08:00","text":"部長，這個等一下再跟你討論好了啦，部長先回座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:27.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:43.549000+08:00","text":"因為今天特別有請到剛剛我提到的，清水高中附設國中國三生割頸案不幸過世的楊同學的爸爸到現場，我想要請楊爸爸到備詢臺。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:43.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:09:44.189000+08:00","text":"有請楊先生到備詢臺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:09:53.826000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:10:03.591000+08:00","text":"楊爸，我跟你請教一下，以您自身的案例，您覺得以現在的教育體制，楊同學有辦法被保護住嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:10:04.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:10:08.453000+08:00","text":"部長也在臺下，你看看有什麼話可以跟他說？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:10:08.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:10:18.378000+08:00","text":"其實以我現在來看，我兒子還是沒辦法被保護住，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:10:18.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:10:42.874000+08:00","text":"這兩個小朋友就像鐵拳教育的第六集一樣，他們認為他們就是未成年，他們有無敵星星了，更何況劇中的那幾個小朋友都會假裝的九十度鞠躬，我們的咧？沒有。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:10:44.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:10:57.837000+08:00","text":"他們是更離譜，真的非常離譜的兩個人，他們兩個是先後到清水高中喔！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:10:59.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:00.158000+08:00","text":"為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:00.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:17.788000+08:00","text":"他們之前的行政處遇一堆，你們都講說你們的行政處遇做得很好，為什麼行政處遇變成養了兩個殺人犯出來，這叫做你們的行政處遇嗎？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:19.588000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:35.593000+08:00","text":"我不相信你們的行政處遇是這種方式的，應該這麼講，你們只是讓他抄寫佛經、心經，有用嗎？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:35.593000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:44.915000+08:00","text":"如果有用的話，我們以後的小孩子通通叫他們抄寫佛經、心經，每個都可以成仙、成佛了，是這樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:44.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:46.756000+08:00","text":"他們抄寫沒有用嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:53.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:56.578000+08:00","text":"所謂的行政處遇是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:11:56.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:11:58.058000+08:00","text":"我不知道，我真的不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:00.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:12:10.804000+08:00","text":"我們違規闖紅燈都還要去上課，上完課還要考試，這些小朋友有沒有考試過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:10.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:12:13.946000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有跟他們上過法學的課程？沒有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:15.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:12:22.616000+08:00","text":"你跟我說你們司法接不住，是要我來接住嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:22.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:12:25.058000+08:00","text":"你認為我能夠怎麼接？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:27.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:12:48.270000+08:00","text":"更何況今天老師的管理權沒有了，我兒子當風紀股長就因為這樣子來喪命，你沒有給老師管理權，我兒子在當你們的管理權，這樣是對的嗎？","quality":0.877},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:12:48.270000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:13:03.057000+08:00","text":"你這樣子等於是說，以後也不要去設所謂的風紀股長，什麼股長通通不用了嘛，因為老師都沒有管理權，那些學生有什麼管理權，跟我說這個有什麼用，你沒有賦予老師管理權。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:13:16.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:13:35.561000+08:00","text":"你們一直說不要標籤化、不要標籤化，這兩個小朋友一直在標籤化自己，你們知道林生在那一個學期就至少超過50支警告嗎？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:13:35.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:13:50.351000+08:00","text":"你們知不知道他們有50支警告以上，缺曠課也好幾堂，你們還要給他們受教權、還要給他們人權，我不知道你們在講什麼東西？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:13:52.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:14:11.099000+08:00","text":"他們有的受教權跟人權，結果害了那麼多學生的受教權沒了，安全也沒了，為了這兩個小朋友，其他人的人身安全沒了，他們也沒辦法受教了！","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:14:12.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:14:23.050000+08:00","text":"你知道他們那一年的會考，所有同學的成績全部是弱的一塌糊塗嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:14:23.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:14:23.550000+08:00","text":"不知道嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:14:25.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:14:42+08:00","text":"他們接受多少輔導教育，我所知道的5,000人次以上，就這個案子，你們一直講他們的受教權、人權，老師連搜書包什麼的都沒有。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:14:44.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:14:48.580000+08:00","text":"你知道郭生是哪時候拿刀嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:14:48.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:15:05.410000+08:00","text":"監察院講的，他在前一年9月還是7月就開始拿刀，學校都不知道，然後在我的二審最後一庭，他自己承認國一就拿刀了，有人知道嗎？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:15:11.228000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:15:12.368000+08:00","text":"這個學生你不標籤起來，誰能夠防得住這個人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:15:12.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:15:13.109000+08:00","text":"你告訴我誰能夠防得住這個人？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:15:13.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:15:14.489000+08:00","text":"他從國一就開始拿刀了，我真的不知道！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊先生","start":"2026-07-13T11:15:14.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:03.934000+08:00","text":"其實我今天會來，是希望校安問題大家真的要去好好解決，不要再跟我兒子一樣受害，我三年來，快要三年了，我每天都睡不好，沒有人知道我的痛，大家都說感同身受，你們去受受看，我不希望真的還有下一個人，謝謝。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:08.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:10.398000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝楊爸，楊爸請回座。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:11.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:12.399000+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:12.399000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:13.399000+08:00","text":"請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:12.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:12.659000+08:00","text":"有請部長。你好。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:12.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:16:47.949000+08:00","text":"部長，我覺得我是想要跟你很正面來討論這個法案，大家都不要有先入為主，也可以理解你希望不要讓有一些學生被標籤化，可以理解您的用心，但我覺得教育現場現在要有所取捨，就是到底應該要多站在加害者這邊考量，還是為了要維護整個教育秩序的考量？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:16:48.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:17:08.482000+08:00","text":"教育秩序又包括要保護很多善良的好學生，所以如果我們今天想要保護更多善良的學生，誠如剛剛楊爸所講的，班上只要有類似郭男這種乾哥、乾姐一個在班上，全班成績全部都沒有辦法好，為什麼？","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:17:08.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:17:12.304000+08:00","text":"因為大家很害怕，甚至生命也有威脅啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:17:14.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:17:45.366000+08:00","text":"現在你的報告所提出來的所有辦法完全沒有辦法解決這個問題，你看你們講了很多，你說會根據學生輔導法加強輔導資源，沒有用，輔導就是沒有用；另外，你說會有春暉針對就學適應問題，春暉小組主要是針對輟學生，也不是針對這些有高風險的學生，其他像最後一個，少年法庭裁定進入矯正教育，這是他已經犯法、他已經殺人。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:17:46.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:17:48.048000+08:00","text":"我想要解決的問題是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:17:48.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:18:27.152000+08:00","text":"我想要解決的問題就是他有問題，但他還沒有到殺人的時候，我們不能夠等到他殺人後才離開學校，我們怎麼在他還沒有犯法之前，評估他有極高的風險可能會做出傷害別人的事情的時候，我們有個專家機制，然後強制他轉學到一個教育部所設立專屬的學校或機構，技術性的問題我們可以討論，可是我覺得方向上，你光是講說這個東西會標籤化，部長，我就覺得你沒有用很正面的態度來看待我想要解決這個問題的心，部長先讓你簡單回應一下。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:18:27.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:18:28.393000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:18:29.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:19:00.616000+08:00","text":"確實，我想加害者的權益，他應該要對他的行為付出責任，或者我們講非行少年還沒到真正致人生命有一些危險的時候，學校的系統怎麼樣有一個更好的處置方案，我想我們會認真來思考這一個議題，然後照委員所說的學者專家，包括教育現場，我們看怎麼樣來處理這一塊。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:19:00.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:19:04.097000+08:00","text":"你現在就是沒有辦法，部長，因為我關心這個議題兩年多了。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:19:05.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:19:07.679000+08:00","text":"委員希望有一個中介的……學校。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:19:09.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:19:15.522000+08:00","text":"它可能是機構、可能是學校，或者可能是一個什麼樣的型態，我想我們認真來思考。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:19:15.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:19:32.257000+08:00","text":"其實我有思考到，我們最不要讓他標籤化，就是讓他轉學到那個專屬學校，那個學校也是可以正常上課，然後上他喜歡的課程，然後你們加強輔導，找一些教育團體，他們應該都很有理念啊！","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:19:33.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:13.933000+08:00","text":"確實，因為學校教育裡面，班級會有統一的教材、統一的課程，所以我們也感謝委員，大院過去有所謂的實驗教育，有許多的homeschooling，對這些所謂的學校的功課，他可能找不到興趣，也許讓他更有另類的一些學習課程，我想這本來是我們對高關懷學生所設計的一個初衷，但是這一個如果還是沒有辦法解決委員所提的一些問題，我們來思考是不是有一個另類新的支持。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:15.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:20.978000+08:00","text":"部長，其實我談這個議題談很多了，你應該也知道啦！是。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:21.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:22.039000+08:00","text":"我很關心嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:22.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:26.082000+08:00","text":"在總質詢的時候也問過卓院長，也跟你談過非常多次。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:26.502000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:27.643000+08:00","text":"但你們都沒有動嘛！","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:27.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:34.547000+08:00","text":"所以我就直接立法了，也謝謝召委排公聽會及今天詢答，接下來我們就可以直接處理法條了。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:35.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:50.832000+08:00","text":"我是希望我們處理法條的時候，教育部可以有一個對案，你也可以提出你的看法出來，也許你覺得我的不夠成熟，但我想要解決問題，你可以提一個你覺得更成熟的，大家來集思廣益把問題解決……","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:50.832000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:20:51.832000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員的用心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:20:51.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:01.614000+08:00","text":"就像楊爸講的，其實他很難過，他兒子已經回不來了，但他不希望有另外一個類似他兒子的狀況出現，不要有下一個楊爸爸。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:01.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:11.916000+08:00","text":"所以楊爸爸今天願意來，我也非常感謝他，也讓部長知道現行的機制就是沒辦法解決楊同學遇害的問題，我們不要再下一個楊同學。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:12.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:14.016000+08:00","text":"部長，可以嗎？好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:14.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:17.197000+08:00","text":"部長，針對這個部分，拜託再積極一點。好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:17.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:18.797000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:19.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:44.730000+08:00","text":"再來，因為今天我們還有討論有關於出缺席的問題，我看到教育部在上上禮拜有秀一個圖卡出來，特別有強調學生遲到、曠課不是沒事，因為之前有傳出來說遲到、曠課不能記警告，後來造成軒然大波，教育部就出來說明：沒有記警告，但是不是沒事啦！","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:46.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:21:52.127000+08:00","text":"因為學生遲到、曠課也是要為自己負責，老師仍可依法管教學生。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:21:53.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:08.211000+08:00","text":"我蠻建議部長，如果你們部裡有官員，你可以建議他到學校去擔任一日導師試試看，到底你們的這個方法管不管得了學生？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:09.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:37.966000+08:00","text":"第一個是「通知家長督導孩子改善」，很多老師講，有些學生就是習慣性的遲到或習慣性的缺課，他每天早上都要去找那個家長，家長也很難找，找到了家長也無所謂，所以學生很常會有這種缺課的問題，有時候也是家長不在乎，又一直叫老師去通知家長，老師什麼事都不用做，只要通知家長就好，所以這個是很不切實際。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:39.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:41.709000+08:00","text":"再來是「提醒、勸導」，這兇一點啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:41.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:42.809000+08:00","text":"學生就回過來投訴你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:44.110000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:46.352000+08:00","text":"不然的話，你要求他「書面反省」，對！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:46.352000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:22:50.374000+08:00","text":"你可以要求他書面反省，他也可以告訴你，我不想要書面反省，你能怎麼樣。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:22:52.716000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:02.102000+08:00","text":"接下來是「適當的靜坐或站立反省」，一樣又回到剛剛講的，現在只要多管教學生，兇了一點點就很容易被投訴到校事會議。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:02.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:13.069000+08:00","text":"最後是「列入日常生活表現紀錄」，老師拿一個小本本紀錄下來，也純紀錄而已，達不到什麼實質的效果，而教育部講：哎呀！","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:13.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:16.311000+08:00","text":"學生自己遲到、曠課就是要負責，對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:16.311000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:18.752000+08:00","text":"每一個人要為自己的人生負責。沒錯！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:21.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:37.958000+08:00","text":"再來，「出缺席仍列入管理、該科成績可能不及格、可能影響畢業資格」，以前如果記過，大家會比較緊張，原因是因為記過可能會留校察看、可能會退學，現在記過根本沒差，10個大過、20個大過都沒有差。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:42.320000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:23:45.541000+08:00","text":"我們可以看一下「影響畢業資格」，其實也是蠻困難的，為什麼呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:23:45.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:03.313000+08:00","text":"因為國中3年的總堂數大概是4,200堂，你要缺課超過1,400堂才拿不到畢業證書，等於是你一週可以缺課超過10堂，10堂以內都是合理的範圍。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:03.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:12.854000+08:00","text":"拿到畢業證書門檻非常低，就算拿不到畢業證書、缺課實在非常多而拿不到畢業證書，也可以有修業證書，照樣可以升學。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:14.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:27.626000+08:00","text":"我現在不是要來挑戰教育部的這張圖卡，我只是對於你們所提出來的所有管教方法在第一線是完全沒有用，而會產生什麼狀況呢？","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:28.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:34.312000+08:00","text":"「破窗效應」，只要班上有幾個學生是習慣性的缺課或遲到，整個班就非常難帶，老師會很難帶這個班。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:37.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:48.058000+08:00","text":"部長，你可以去統計一下不同的縣市，每位學生平均……到了期末的時候，因為缺課會預警嘛！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:48.618000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:24:56.922000+08:00","text":"你去調查一下全班大概幾分之幾會被預警，我的了解是大概五分之一到十分之一的學生，因為缺課遲到而被預警。","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:24:58.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:12.354000+08:00","text":"所以這個是很嚴重的事，這不是教育部po一個圖表，好像問題就解決了，我真的建議教育部的官員當一日導師試試看，你們去了解一下現在的教學現場是有多麼難管理。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:12.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:13.115000+08:00","text":"部長，您了解這個狀況嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:16.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:17.094000+08:00","text":"簡單回答一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:17.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:27.138000+08:00","text":"我確實對於現場的整班裡學生有多少比例缺曠課是有比較陌生。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:27.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:27.939000+08:00","text":"比較陌生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:29.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:36.606000+08:00","text":"我是要跟你講，你們所提出來的那些方法都沒有用，而且很多老師還覺得：哇！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:36.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:38.647000+08:00","text":"現在教育部在教老師怎麼去管學生。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:38.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:52.297000+08:00","text":"我必須同意委員有一定程度的看法，對於社會快速地發展，我們學校教育管教辦法怎麼樣能夠與時俱進，這我們會來討論……","quality":0.82},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:52.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:53.197000+08:00","text":"要提辦法出來啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:53.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:53.578000+08:00","text":"部長，好不好？好。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:55.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:25:56.560000+08:00","text":"大概什麼時候可以提一個辦法出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:25:57.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:26:08.927000+08:00","text":"我們還是要與家長、老師及學生來討論，才能真正做一個比較符合第一線實際的情況，給我們一些時間，好不好？","quality":0.622},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:26:08.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:26:22.135000+08:00","text":"其實你可以看一下教育部的臉書，那天po那個圖表出來，下面有兩、三千則留言，你可以去看他們的留言，我看很多好像都是一線老師的回應，也是你們輿情蒐集的方式。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:26:22.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:26:29.005000+08:00","text":"教育部不要只會po圖，社群不是只是在澄清，重點還是要蒐集輿情。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:26:32.750000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:27:04.149000+08:00","text":"另外，最近大家在討論正向教育，正向教育不是不好，正向教育非常好，但是當初一開始的時候是針對家庭教育，就是希望爸媽在對小朋友教育的時候要用正向教育，如果放到學校一對多的時候，你全部都用正向教育，同樣的也會面臨到教學跟教育次序孰輕孰重的落差。","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:27:04.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:27:22.996000+08:00","text":"我就舉教育部的範例，部長看一下簡報右邊是你們的範例，它說：有個同學大聲罵同學、罵學校，老師一開始不能夠制止他，要用正向教育，要怎麼說呢？","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:27:23.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:27:41.615000+08:00","text":"老師要去跟同學說：關於羅廷瑋同學你大聲罵同學、罵學校這件事情，老師可以了解你對同學、學校很關心，這是很好的，以後你還是要繼續關心同學，但是方法不對，你可能會傷害別人。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:27:43.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:10.713000+08:00","text":"部長，假設今天有一位同學很惡意的亂罵同學、罵三字經，講得很難聽並霸凌同學，結果老師碰到這一位同學一開始的時候，還要說：關於你霸凌同學這件事情很好，表示你關心同學，或他罵三字經問候人家媽媽，關於你問候人家媽媽這件事情很好，表示你關心人家媽媽。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:10.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:10.973000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個太不切實際了吧！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:15.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:22.887000+08:00","text":"委員，有許多案例確實在教育現場的困境，你不能用一個案例去解釋所有的狀況……","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:24.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:24.507000+08:00","text":"這個是你們的範例嘛！","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:25.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:25.668000+08:00","text":"範例只是舉一個情景……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:26.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:29.230000+08:00","text":"你給大家範例，人家就會照做，人家也很怕被投訴啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:29.450000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:36.453000+08:00","text":"像委員剛剛提到直接罵三字經，甚至有許多的不當行為，我想它一定有不同的處理方式。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:37.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:28:44.677000+08:00","text":"部長，因為這個範例是抽象的，當然它要涵攝很多實際狀況，但我講的也是罵同學的狀況嘛！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:28:44.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:29:04.270000+08:00","text":"所以你說把正向教育簡化成「形式」上正向，這其實是「形式」上正向，你反而忽略了教育的內涵，而且一開始的時候，還肯定不當行為背後的想像動機，這等於是有點主動幫做錯事的孩子找藉口。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:29:05.479000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:29:13.007000+08:00","text":"另外，我覺得一個重點是教育秩序的維護，你忽略被罵同學、被影響者的感受，其實你還是傷害了其他孩子的受教權。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:29:14.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:29:37.345000+08:00","text":"我們現在講的很多東西都是環環相扣的，我們現在所面臨到現在教育現場是非常複雜的，跟以前已經很不一樣了，造成教育現場的失序，是時候針對我們這幾年教改，很多學者專家所提出來他們認為很好的教育方式，我覺得是時候好好的檢討一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:29:37.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:29:49.892000+08:00","text":"正向教育沒有說一定不好，可是要檢討它的適用方式，或者是檢討它的執行方式，還有面對那一些加害者同學的受教權，是不是過度的保護？","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:29:51.546000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:00.435000+08:00","text":"另外是老師的管教權，是不是不斷地限縮，導致於老師面對學生沒有工具，而造成現場的失序。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:01.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:22.163000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個是一個整體的問題，因為有很多，像校事會議，我之前都有跟部長討論過，今天就不浪費時間，但是我覺得這個是整體的問題，所以真心地希望部長，我們就面對問題，把教育現場的失序問題好好導正，因為我覺得現在的問題真的是還蠻嚴重的。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:23.183000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:24.124000+08:00","text":"請部長簡單回應一下。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:25.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:25.825000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:26.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:43.497000+08:00","text":"我想我們會與時俱進，不管是老師的專業管教權，或學生的許多行為規範，在國民教育裡面是非常重要，我也完全同意委員所提的部分，我們來看怎麼樣與時俱進。","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:44.758000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:45.079000+08:00","text":"儘快好不好？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:45.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:30:47.722000+08:00","text":"您什麼時候會給我們一個大概的方向？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:30:48.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:07.956000+08:00","text":"我想我們一方面會跟學者專家請教，也跟團體，包含學生，過去確實有以學生為主……學生的受教權不容挑戰，但是我們怎麼樣去保護真正學習的學生，或者有一些行為已經逾越規範的，我們怎麼樣把它導正？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:08.356000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:20.980000+08:00","text":"我想這一個部分確實是需要一些時間，我們來把它想得比較清楚點，並能夠歸納讓第一線上，特別是給老師們對於一些學生的建議。","quality":0.815},{"speaker":"鄭部長英耀","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:20.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:35.333000+08:00","text":"因為一樣地，學生今天因為有一位同學的干擾，讓他們沒有辦法安心學習，我想這些我們都一併把它納進來，研議看怎麼樣有一個更適當的與時俱進的方法。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:35.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:36.014000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，希望部長儘快。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:36.114000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:36.214000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，部長請回。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:36.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:37.075000+08:00","text":"我們先休息5分鐘，稍後有請葉元之委員代理召委，謝謝。","quality":0.409},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:37.575000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:38.717857+08:00","text":"休息（11時31分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:39.017857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:40.732143+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時37分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（葉委員元之代）","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:41.032143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:42.746429+08:00","text":"現在繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（葉委員元之代）","start":"2026-07-13T11:31:43.046429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-13T11:31:45.903571+08:00","text":"請陳秀寳委員進行詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2639,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時6分）主席好，麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。首先我先感謝召委，今天特別有排我的提案「國民轉介教育條例草案」，即安心上學法案，我先講一下，我們當初提這個案子最主要想要解決校園安全的問題。因為像幾年前在新北市發生了土城的割頸案，還有我們看到前一段時間也有新北市另外一個國中，有學生拿著鋁棒往另外一個學生的頭上敲下去，那個聲音非常清脆，一不小心可能就有生命的危險。昨天我在網路上也看到一個影片，是好幾個學生在打架，打得非常兇狠，然後老師要去勸架，老師完全都沒有辦法，甚至於其他學生還說：老師小心。像這樣一個危險的學生在校園裡面，其實只要學校有一個的話，全校都會非常害怕。我們為了要保護善良的學生，我們為了要保護老師能夠在學校好好的教書，我們為了要保護所有想要上課的學生在學校可以好好的上課，我覺得如果有一些特別危險的學生，比如說平常帶刀上課的，比如對其他師生有生命安全威脅的這一種學生，我們應該要有一個機制，透過專家評估，強制他轉學，轉學到教育部另外設立的專屬學校，而且加強資源，我覺得這是為了解決目前教育現場失序的問題。","但很遺憾，我看到教育部的報告完全都是用負面的角度來解讀這個法案，講了一個東西說應該要行政先行、去標籤化，什麼叫行政先行、去標籤化？標籤化就是司法，在司法介入之前，應該要有教育、社政等行政體系優先提供關懷與輔導，避免兒少因為偏差的行為直接進入到司法程序而承受負面標籤。但是第一，其實你如果用教育部現在在報告裡面所提出來的那些機制，比如說叫他上高關懷課程，比如說叫他去中途學校，這就是給他標籤化了，這就是標籤化了啦！第二個，行政先行就是沒有用，現在教育部要去思考的是，在加害者身上去標籤化的利益以及維持教學秩序的利益，兩個求取平衡看哪個重要嘛！因為你不想要讓加害者有標籤化，所以整個教育市場就失序，然後學生就應該要受害？你知道學校只要有一個我剛剛講的那種學生，他怎麼樣才可以離開教學現場嗎？有人被殺，有人受害，才有辦法離開，難道就要讓這種憾事持續在校園發生嗎？部長敢保證嗎？部長，這個等一下再跟你討論好了啦，部長先回座。","因為今天特別有請到剛剛我提到的，清水高中附設國中國三生割頸案不幸過世的楊同學的爸爸到現場，我想要請楊爸爸到備詢臺。"],["主席：有請楊先生到備詢臺。"],["葉委員元之：楊爸，我跟你請教一下，以您自身的案例，您覺得以現在的教育體制，楊同學有辦法被保護住嗎？部長也在臺下，你看看有什麼話可以跟他說？"],["楊先生：其實以我現在來看，我兒子還是沒辦法被保護住，為什麼？這兩個小朋友就像鐵拳教育的第六集一樣，他們認為他們就是未成年，他們有無敵星星了，更何況劇中的那幾個小朋友都會假裝的九十度鞠躬，我們的咧？沒有。他們是更離譜，真的非常離譜的兩個人，他們兩個是先後到清水高中喔！為什麼？他們之前的行政處遇一堆，你們都講說你們的行政處遇做得很好，為什麼行政處遇變成養了兩個殺人犯出來，這叫做你們的行政處遇嗎？我不相信你們的行政處遇是這種方式的，應該這麼講，你們只是讓他抄寫佛經、心經，有用嗎？如果有用的話，我們以後的小孩子通通叫他們抄寫佛經、心經，每個都可以成仙、成佛了，是這樣子嗎？他們抄寫沒有用嘛！所謂的行政處遇是什麼？我不知道，我真的不知道。我們違規闖紅燈都還要去上課，上完課還要考試，這些小朋友有沒有考試過？你們有沒有跟他們上過法學的課程？沒有。你跟我說你們司法接不住，是要我來接住嗎？你認為我能夠怎麼接？更何況今天老師的管理權沒有了，我兒子當風紀股長就因為這樣子來喪命，你沒有給老師管理權，我兒子在當你們的管理權，這樣是對的嗎？你這樣子等於是說，以後也不要去設所謂的風紀股長，什麼股長通通不用了嘛，因為老師都沒有管理權，那些學生有什麼管理權，跟我說這個有什麼用，你沒有賦予老師管理權。你們一直說不要標籤化、不要標籤化，這兩個小朋友一直在標籤化自己，你們知道林生在那一個學期就至少超過50支警告嗎？你們知不知道他們有50支警告以上，缺曠課也好幾堂，你們還要給他們受教權、還要給他們人權，我不知道你們在講什麼東西？他們有的受教權跟人權，結果害了那麼多學生的受教權沒了，安全也沒了，為了這兩個小朋友，其他人的人身安全沒了，他們也沒辦法受教了！","你知道他們那一年的會考，所有同學的成績全部是弱的一塌糊塗嗎？不知道嘛！他們接受多少輔導教育，我所知道的5,000人次以上，就這個案子，你們一直講他們的受教權、人權，老師連搜書包什麼的都沒有。你知道郭生是哪時候拿刀嗎？監察院講的，他在前一年9月還是7月就開始拿刀，學校都不知道，然後在我的二審最後一庭，他自己承認國一就拿刀了，有人知道嗎？這個學生你不標籤起來，誰能夠防得住這個人？你告訴我誰能夠防得住這個人？他從國一就開始拿刀了，我真的不知道！其實我今天會來，是希望校安問題大家真的要去好好解決，不要再跟我兒子一樣受害，我三年來，快要三年了，我每天都睡不好，沒有人知道我的痛，大家都說感同身受，你們去受受看，我不希望真的還有下一個人，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝楊爸，楊爸請回座。","主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請回座。有請部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：你好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我覺得我是想要跟你很正面來討論這個法案，大家都不要有先入為主，也可以理解你希望不要讓有一些學生被標籤化，可以理解您的用心，但我覺得教育現場現在要有所取捨，就是到底應該要多站在加害者這邊考量，還是為了要維護整個教育秩序的考量？教育秩序又包括要保護很多善良的好學生，所以如果我們今天想要保護更多善良的學生，誠如剛剛楊爸所講的，班上只要有類似郭男這種乾哥、乾姐一個在班上，全班成績全部都沒有辦法好，為什麼？因為大家很害怕，甚至生命也有威脅啊！現在你的報告所提出來的所有辦法完全沒有辦法解決這個問題，你看你們講了很多，你說會根據學生輔導法加強輔導資源，沒有用，輔導就是沒有用；另外，你說會有春暉針對就學適應問題，春暉小組主要是針對輟學生，也不是針對這些有高風險的學生，其他像最後一個，少年法庭裁定進入矯正教育，這是他已經犯法、他已經殺人。","我想要解決的問題是什麼？我想要解決的問題就是他有問題，但他還沒有到殺人的時候，我們不能夠等到他殺人後才離開學校，我們怎麼在他還沒有犯法之前，評估他有極高的風險可能會做出傷害別人的事情的時候，我們有個專家機制，然後強制他轉學到一個教育部所設立專屬的學校或機構，技術性的問題我們可以討論，可是我覺得方向上，你光是講說這個東西會標籤化，部長，我就覺得你沒有用很正面的態度來看待我想要解決這個問題的心，部長先讓你簡單回應一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。確實，我想加害者的權益，他應該要對他的行為付出責任，或者我們講非行少年還沒到真正致人生命有一些危險的時候，學校的系統怎麼樣有一個更好的處置方案，我想我們會認真來思考這一個議題，然後照委員所說的學者專家，包括教育現場，我們看怎麼樣來處理這一塊。"],["葉委員元之：你現在就是沒有辦法，部長，因為我關心這個議題兩年多了。"],["鄭部長英耀：委員希望有一個中介的……"],["葉委員元之：學校。"],["鄭部長英耀：它可能是機構、可能是學校，或者可能是一個什麼樣的型態，我想我們認真來思考。"],["葉委員元之：其實我有思考到，我們最不要讓他標籤化，就是讓他轉學到那個專屬學校，那個學校也是可以正常上課，然後上他喜歡的課程，然後你們加強輔導，找一些教育團體，他們應該都很有理念啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：確實，因為學校教育裡面，班級會有統一的教材、統一的課程，所以我們也感謝委員，大院過去有所謂的實驗教育，有許多的homeschooling，對這些所謂的學校的功課，他可能找不到興趣，也許讓他更有另類的一些學習課程，我想這本來是我們對高關懷學生所設計的一個初衷，但是這一個如果還是沒有辦法解決委員所提的一些問題，我們來思考是不是有一個另類新的支持。"],["葉委員元之：部長，其實我談這個議題談很多了，你應該也知道啦！"],["鄭部長英耀：是。"],["葉委員元之：我很關心嘛！在總質詢的時候也問過卓院長，也跟你談過非常多次。但你們都沒有動嘛！所以我就直接立法了，也謝謝召委排公聽會及今天詢答，接下來我們就可以直接處理法條了。我是希望我們處理法條的時候，教育部可以有一個對案，你也可以提出你的看法出來，也許你覺得我的不夠成熟，但我想要解決問題，你可以提一個你覺得更成熟的，大家來集思廣益把問題解決……"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員的用心。"],["葉委員元之：就像楊爸講的，其實他很難過，他兒子已經回不來了，但他不希望有另外一個類似他兒子的狀況出現，不要有下一個楊爸爸。所以楊爸爸今天願意來，我也非常感謝他，也讓部長知道現行的機制就是沒辦法解決楊同學遇害的問題，我們不要再下一個楊同學。部長，可以嗎？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，針對這個部分，拜託再積極一點。"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["葉委員元之：謝謝部長。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：再來，因為今天我們還有討論有關於出缺席的問題，我看到教育部在上上禮拜有秀一個圖卡出來，特別有強調學生遲到、曠課不是沒事，因為之前有傳出來說遲到、曠課不能記警告，後來造成軒然大波，教育部就出來說明：沒有記警告，但是不是沒事啦！因為學生遲到、曠課也是要為自己負責，老師仍可依法管教學生。我蠻建議部長，如果你們部裡有官員，你可以建議他到學校去擔任一日導師試試看，到底你們的這個方法管不管得了學生？","第一個是「通知家長督導孩子改善」，很多老師講，有些學生就是習慣性的遲到或習慣性的缺課，他每天早上都要去找那個家長，家長也很難找，找到了家長也無所謂，所以學生很常會有這種缺課的問題，有時候也是家長不在乎，又一直叫老師去通知家長，老師什麼事都不用做，只要通知家長就好，所以這個是很不切實際。","再來是「提醒、勸導」，這兇一點啦！學生就回過來投訴你。不然的話，你要求他「書面反省」，對！你可以要求他書面反省，他也可以告訴你，我不想要書面反省，你能怎麼樣。接下來是「適當的靜坐或站立反省」，一樣又回到剛剛講的，現在只要多管教學生，兇了一點點就很容易被投訴到校事會議。最後是「列入日常生活表現紀錄」，老師拿一個小本本紀錄下來，也純紀錄而已，達不到什麼實質的效果，而教育部講：哎呀！學生自己遲到、曠課就是要負責，對不對？每一個人要為自己的人生負責。沒錯！","再來，「出缺席仍列入管理、該科成績可能不及格、可能影響畢業資格」，以前如果記過，大家會比較緊張，原因是因為記過可能會留校察看、可能會退學，現在記過根本沒差，10個大過、20個大過都沒有差。我們可以看一下「影響畢業資格」，其實也是蠻困難的，為什麼呢？因為國中3年的總堂數大概是4,200堂，你要缺課超過1,400堂才拿不到畢業證書，等於是你一週可以缺課超過10堂，10堂以內都是合理的範圍。拿到畢業證書門檻非常低，就算拿不到畢業證書、缺課實在非常多而拿不到畢業證書，也可以有修業證書，照樣可以升學。","我現在不是要來挑戰教育部的這張圖卡，我只是對於你們所提出來的所有管教方法在第一線是完全沒有用，而會產生什麼狀況呢？「破窗效應」，只要班上有幾個學生是習慣性的缺課或遲到，整個班就非常難帶，老師會很難帶這個班。部長，你可以去統計一下不同的縣市，每位學生平均……到了期末的時候，因為缺課會預警嘛！你去調查一下全班大概幾分之幾會被預警，我的了解是大概五分之一到十分之一的學生，因為缺課遲到而被預警。所以這個是很嚴重的事，這不是教育部po一個圖表，好像問題就解決了，我真的建議教育部的官員當一日導師試試看，你們去了解一下現在的教學現場是有多麼難管理。部長，您了解這個狀況嗎？簡單回答一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：我確實對於現場的整班裡學生有多少比例缺曠課是有比較陌生。"],["葉委員元之：比較陌生。我是要跟你講，你們所提出來的那些方法都沒有用，而且很多老師還覺得：哇！現在教育部在教老師怎麼去管學生。"],["鄭部長英耀：我必須同意委員有一定程度的看法，對於社會快速地發展，我們學校教育管教辦法怎麼樣能夠與時俱進，這我們會來討論……"],["葉委員元之：要提辦法出來啦！部長，好不好？"],["鄭部長英耀：好。"],["葉委員元之：大概什麼時候可以提一個辦法出來？"],["鄭部長英耀：我們還是要與家長、老師及學生來討論，才能真正做一個比較符合第一線實際的情況，給我們一些時間，好不好？"],["葉委員元之：其實你可以看一下教育部的臉書，那天po那個圖表出來，下面有兩、三千則留言，你可以去看他們的留言，我看很多好像都是一線老師的回應，也是你們輿情蒐集的方式。教育部不要只會po圖，社群不是只是在澄清，重點還是要蒐集輿情。","另外，最近大家在討論正向教育，正向教育不是不好，正向教育非常好，但是當初一開始的時候是針對家庭教育，就是希望爸媽在對小朋友教育的時候要用正向教育，如果放到學校一對多的時候，你全部都用正向教育，同樣的也會面臨到教學跟教育次序孰輕孰重的落差。我就舉教育部的範例，部長看一下簡報右邊是你們的範例，它說：有個同學大聲罵同學、罵學校，老師一開始不能夠制止他，要用正向教育，要怎麼說呢？老師要去跟同學說：關於羅廷瑋同學你大聲罵同學、罵學校這件事情，老師可以了解你對同學、學校很關心，這是很好的，以後你還是要繼續關心同學，但是方法不對，你可能會傷害別人。部長，假設今天有一位同學很惡意的亂罵同學、罵三字經，講得很難聽並霸凌同學，結果老師碰到這一位同學一開始的時候，還要說：關於你霸凌同學這件事情很好，表示你關心同學，或他罵三字經問候人家媽媽，關於你問候人家媽媽這件事情很好，表示你關心人家媽媽。我覺得這個太不切實際了吧！"],["鄭部長英耀：委員，有許多案例確實在教育現場的困境，你不能用一個案例去解釋所有的狀況……"],["葉委員元之：這個是你們的範例嘛！"],["鄭部長英耀：範例只是舉一個情景……"],["葉委員元之：你給大家範例，人家就會照做，人家也很怕被投訴啊！"],["鄭部長英耀：像委員剛剛提到直接罵三字經，甚至有許多的不當行為，我想它一定有不同的處理方式。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為這個範例是抽象的，當然它要涵攝很多實際狀況，但我講的也是罵同學的狀況嘛！所以你說把正向教育簡化成「形式」上正向，這其實是「形式」上正向，你反而忽略了教育的內涵，而且一開始的時候，還肯定不當行為背後的想像動機，這等於是有點主動幫做錯事的孩子找藉口。","另外，我覺得一個重點是教育秩序的維護，你忽略被罵同學、被影響者的感受，其實你還是傷害了其他孩子的受教權。我們現在講的很多東西都是環環相扣的，我們現在所面臨到現在教育現場是非常複雜的，跟以前已經很不一樣了，造成教育現場的失序，是時候針對我們這幾年教改，很多學者專家所提出來他們認為很好的教育方式，我覺得是時候好好的檢討一下。正向教育沒有說一定不好，可是要檢討它的適用方式，或者是檢討它的執行方式，還有面對那一些加害者同學的受教權，是不是過度的保護？另外是老師的管教權，是不是不斷地限縮，導致於老師面對學生沒有工具，而造成現場的失序。我覺得這個是一個整體的問題，因為有很多，像校事會議，我之前都有跟部長討論過，今天就不浪費時間，但是我覺得這個是整體的問題，所以真心地希望部長，我們就面對問題，把教育現場的失序問題好好導正，因為我覺得現在的問題真的是還蠻嚴重的。請部長簡單回應一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒。我想我們會與時俱進，不管是老師的專業管教權，或學生的許多行為規範，在國民教育裡面是非常重要，我也完全同意委員所提的部分，我們來看怎麼樣與時俱進。"],["葉委員元之：儘快好不好？您什麼時候會給我們一個大概的方向？"],["鄭部長英耀：我想我們一方面會跟學者專家請教，也跟團體，包含學生，過去確實有以學生為主……學生的受教權不容挑戰，但是我們怎麼樣去保護真正學習的學生，或者有一些行為已經逾越規範的，我們怎麼樣把它導正？我想這一個部分確實是需要一些時間，我們來把它想得比較清楚點，並能夠歸納讓第一線上，特別是給老師們對於一些學生的建議。因為一樣地，學生今天因為有一位同學的干擾，讓他們沒有辦法安心學習，我想這些我們都一併把它納進來，研議看怎麼樣有一個更適當的與時俱進的方法。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝，希望部長儘快。"],["主席：好，謝謝，部長請回。","我們先休息5分鐘，稍後有請葉元之委員代理召委，謝謝。","休息（11時31分）","繼續開會（11時37分）"],["主席（葉委員元之代）：現在繼續開會。","請陳秀寳委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":470,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-22-19","speakers":["羅廷瑋","羅智強","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳秀寳","郭昱晴","蔡春綢","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","吳思瑤","許忠信","吳沛憶","洪孟楷","張雅琳","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","徐欣瑩","林倩綺","葛如鈞"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-13"],"gazette_id":"1156102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156102_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期教育及文化委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部部長鄭英耀、衛生福利部政務次長林靜儀、行政院食品安全辦公室主任許輔列席\n就「校園食品安全把關機制及致癌油事件因應作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、邀請教育部\n部長鄭英耀列席就「學生出缺勤管理及校園秩序維護政策亂象檢討與改善措施」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢；三、審查教育部函為修正「高級中等以下學校教師解聘不續聘停聘或資遣辦法」部分\n條文及「公立高級中等以下學校教師成績考核辦法」第五條、第六條之一條文案；四、審查(一)\n國民黨黨團擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員林德福等25人擬具\n「教育經費編列與管理法增訂第三條之二條文草案」案、(三)委員邱鎮軍等28人擬具「教育經費\n編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員徐欣瑩等29人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第\n三條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員葉元之等21人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草\n案」案、(六)委員楊瓊瓔等19人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(七)委\n員羅廷瑋等17人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員王鴻薇等18人\n擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(九)委員陳超明等17人擬具「教育經費\n編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(十)委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第\n三條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員萬美玲等17人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正\n草案」案、( 十二) 委員翁曉玲等18 人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、\n(十三)委員馬文君等20人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條條文修正草案」案、(十四)委員柯\n志恩等21人擬具「教育經費編列與管理法第三條、第十條及第十三條條文修正草案」案；五、審\n查委員葉元之等19人擬具「國民轉介教育條例草案」案；六、繼續審查(一)委員范雲等16人擬具\n「學校供餐法草案」案、(二)委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(三)委員魯明哲等\n24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五)委員\n洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(六)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n(七)委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、(八)委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及\n營養促進條例草案」案、(九)委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案、(十)委員郭昱晴等\n16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一)委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教\n育法草案」案、(十二)委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三)委員\n陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十四)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等\n以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、(十五)委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草\n案」案、(十六)委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七)委員陳秀寳等20\n人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十八)委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九)委\n員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十)委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食\n供餐法草案」案、( 二十一) 委員邱鎮軍等25 人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、( 二十二) 委員羅廷瑋等20 人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、\n( 二十三) 委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、( 二十四) 委員葛如鈞等17 人擬具\n「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 二十五) 委員吳沛憶等20人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育促進法草案」\n案、( 二十六) 委員陳亭妃等16 人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、( 二十七) 委員王美惠等19 人擬具\n「學校飲食法草案」案、(二十八)委員陳菁徽等22人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、(二十九)\n委員許宇甄等23人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案、(三十)委員張嘉郡等19人擬具「學校營養午\n餐法草案」案、(三十一)委員李彥秀等16人擬具「學校營養午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、 (三\n十二)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三\n十三)委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等18人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三十\n四 ) 委員林月琴等 29 人擬具「學校供餐及飲食教育法草案」案、 ( 三十五 ) 委員游顥等 17 人擬具\n「學校營養午餐及食品安全衛生管理法草案」案、(三十六)委員顏寬恒等18人擬具「校園飲食均\n衡及健康促進法草案」案、( 三十七) 委員吳思瑤等17 人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(三十八)委員張智倫等17人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(三十\n九)委員蔡易餘等16人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案；七、審查委員羅智強等 20人擬具「學校營養\n飲食供餐法草案」案（第四、五案詢答）","agenda_id":"1156102_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}