{"error":false,"id":["170460"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170460,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170460","日期":"2026-07-15","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-5-20-22","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":22,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-15T09:22:35+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-15T09:34:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:49","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f097d2073855cd22f80bdbeb1a8e5715a7dabc8f267c39f7d7cf49b11129b46fda94560aa36cc40e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:22:35 - 09:34:24","會議時間":"2026-07-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【7月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6340937500000001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":2.07284375,"end":3.3215937500000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":3.69284375,"end":6.42659375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":7.287218750000001,"end":8.265968750000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.582218750000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":10.08846875,"end":12.24846875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":12.31596875,"end":15.083468750000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.652843750000002,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":17.61471875,"end":18.35721875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":24.246593750000002,"end":26.204093750000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":26.65971875,"end":27.26721875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":28.65096875,"end":72.27284375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":72.64409375000001,"end":93.73784375000001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":93.23159375,"end":99.96471875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":99.96471875,"end":129.04034375,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":129.44534375,"end":156.22596875000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":156.37784375,"end":157.99784375000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":157.71096875,"end":174.68721875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":174.68721875,"end":208.53846875000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":210.02346875,"end":210.54659375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":211.35659375,"end":211.40721875000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":212.50409375,"end":213.56721875000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":214.39409375000002,"end":215.52471875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":215.74409375000002,"end":219.81096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":220.03034375000001,"end":223.60784375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":223.89471875,"end":227.13471875000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":227.13471875000002,"end":227.43846875000003,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":227.35409375,"end":234.03659375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":235.31909375,"end":239.55471875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":240.22971875000002,"end":244.44846875000002,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":244.73534375000003,"end":246.60846875000001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":246.79409375,"end":260.56409375000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":262.13346875,"end":262.69034375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":264.07409375000003,"end":273.62534375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":265.17096875000004,"end":266.01471875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":273.23721875,"end":275.39721875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":274.58721875000003,"end":274.89096875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":275.51534375,"end":293.09909375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":280.49346875000003,"end":280.79721875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":283.10909375,"end":283.12596875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":283.12596875,"end":283.53096875,"speaker_score":0.743},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":283.53096875,"end":283.56471875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":293.68971875,"end":296.01846875,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":295.54596875000004,"end":298.04346875000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":298.22909375,"end":299.05596875000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"陳主計長淑姿","start":298.41471875,"end":300.42284375,"speaker_score":0.961},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":300.18659375000004,"end":306.58221875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":306.80159375,"end":313.39971875000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":313.99034375,"end":321.02721875000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":321.76971875000004,"end":335.20221875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":336.13034375,"end":336.14721875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":336.14721875000004,"end":351.19971875000005,"speaker_score":0.743},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":336.46784375000004,"end":336.88971875000004,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":351.31784375,"end":354.42284375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":354.08534375000005,"end":354.38909375000003,"speaker_score":0.743},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":354.42284375,"end":356.24534375,"speaker_score":0.743},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":355.89096875,"end":385.87784375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","speaker_name":"李總經理丁來","start":359.02971875000003,"end":359.31659375000004,"speaker_score":0.743},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":387.31221875,"end":398.02784375000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":398.50034375,"end":399.02346875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":399.39471875000004,"end":400.25534375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":401.79096875000005,"end":406.41471875,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":406.81971875000005,"end":429.63471875000005,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":430.09034375000005,"end":438.03846875000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":438.03846875000005,"end":477.03659375,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":477.52596875,"end":493.96221875000003,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":479.43284375,"end":479.68596875000003,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":493.96221875000003,"end":494.33346875,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":494.13096875,"end":497.48909375000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","speaker_name":"張廖次長萬堅","start":495.56534375,"end":495.97034375000004,"speaker_score":0.962},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":497.57346875,"end":511.47846875000005,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":511.66409375,"end":512.45721875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":513.0478437500001,"end":516.1865937499999,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":517.9922187500001,"end":534.4622187500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":534.81659375,"end":536.5715937500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":536.89221875,"end":537.5334687500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":538.8328437499999,"end":554.77971875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":555.3872187500001,"end":571.06409375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":571.63784375,"end":571.9753437500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":571.9753437500001,"end":586.6059687500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":586.3022187500001,"end":595.56659375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":595.5834687500001,"end":595.6003437500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":595.6003437500001,"end":601.6415937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":600.2747187500001,"end":610.9397187500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":608.18909375,"end":621.6047187500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":616.60971875,"end":618.44909375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":618.5672187499999,"end":618.58409375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":618.61784375,"end":619.3940937500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":621.6047187500001,"end":638.8172187499999,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":637.28159375,"end":637.6865937499999,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":637.75409375,"end":637.7709687500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":637.7878437500001,"end":652.4015937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":648.7565937500001,"end":649.7859687499999,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":650.8828437500001,"end":669.63096875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":666.6103437500001,"end":667.9097187500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":669.95159375,"end":682.42221875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":679.9584687500001,"end":680.22846875,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":681.49409375,"end":685.3415937500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":684.0590937500001,"end":693.96471875,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":690.43784375,"end":691.5347187500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":694.42034375,"end":696.10784375,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":696.47909375,"end":697.9640937500001,"speaker_score":0.979},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"林次長靜儀","start":697.9640937500001,"end":700.8159687500001,"speaker_score":0.969},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"林委員德福","start":709.84409375,"end":710.43471875,"speaker_score":0.979}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.93,"end":18.04,"text":"謝謝謝謝主席是不是來請這個主計長還有省計長包括衛福部林次長還有教育部的這個張料次長請兩位請四位首先我請那個衛福部那個"},{"start":28.9,"end":51.013,"text":"這次整個致癌油尤其毒油波及的商品之廣全台民眾基本上都是逃不掉的多少都有知道根據統計109到113年衛福部 農業部 環境部包括教育部 經濟部合計至少投入296億的"},{"start":54.855,"end":56.036,"text":"市長 您的看法呢"},{"start":72.968,"end":93.031,"text":"我先跟委員報告這地方政府其實我們至少在最近去年111到114年這四年我們都有專案補助要求地方政府對於有品相關產品進行查驗那所以說這個部分其實不同的地方政府在專案裡面也有不同的評次去對於這些有品市場有品的業者去進行查驗"},{"start":93.571,"end":113.451,"text":"那你認為這次整個衛務部在這次的大漏洞到底他的問題出在哪裡這一次因為我們過去讓業者自主通報當然我們接下來食安法的經濟裡面會對於自主通報這一邊我們會其實現在會保持質疑我們會希望相關的檢驗的數據那要有第三方公證的這個單位去做檢驗"},{"start":114.292,"end":131.25,"text":"再來第二個部分就是說在這個檢驗的相關這些大量如果產品它有一些不同的工廠那有的是很大像這一次中聯它是很大型的自由工廠所以像這樣大型的自由工廠它的檢驗頻次應該要增加對啊一開始就要增加而且你看"},{"start":132.011,"end":155.653,"text":"他三家最大的公司幾乎都是投資在他那裡其實他是一體的啦那他出問題整個幾乎北到南南到北幾乎都出狀況而且你看包括夜市包括所有我們的這些像7-11這些幾乎都涵蓋在裡面很多食品都需要下架"},{"start":156.999,"end":184.606,"text":"這個問題是非常嚴重所以對於這種他對於市場佔率非常大的這樣的大型業者而且他的這個產油的批次其實每個月的批次相對多那我們接下來在後續的食安法這邊會對於檢驗的評次還有檢驗這邊他自主通報的相關的程序時間全部都做一個修正我是希望你們要嚴格的去要求規範一點都束縛不得因為吃到肚子裡面是吐不出來的而且後續還有很多衍生的問題"},{"start":186.306,"end":207.992,"text":"那我來請主計審計政府在食安上扎大錢建系統但是卻絲毫這個整個早期預警的功能都沒有那人民感到很無奈而且這個主計總署在籌編審查明年食安預算的時候你們有沒有檢討主計長你們有沒有檢討"},{"start":214.871,"end":225.115,"text":"這個部分是我們會請業務大會因為這一次的事件他們已經深切在深入檢討當中我要針對問題探討問題怎麼去解決問題不是被動式的現在政府官員就是被動式的所以說人民很憤怒講實在話"},{"start":235.37,"end":253.653,"text":"你們要主動要積極食安一點都馬虎不得不容許這個任何的狀況你看全國多少學生他們有的正在成長然後你就吃那些毒油根據足跡總數統計115年度食安五環預算共編列了47.2億元116年度食安五環預算會再成長嗎會不會"},{"start":264.301,"end":288.534,"text":"還沒有統計目前因為他擅在各部會那各部會要編列多少我們還在統計中116年度的預算籌備也正在進行當中我是希望你們用一點心因為食安的東西是一點都不能馬虎容許不得一點疏忽因為當然我們是希望稽查人員以檢驗設備預算你認為需不需要成長"},{"start":294.163,"end":320.851,"text":"不是他有需要啦 人民有需要啦我跟你講是人民有需要因為看到這樣的政府一點效率都沒有而且被動式的而且都還第二關卡 第三關卡陳報以後隔了多久才選選出來 你看又吃了多少那要回收也沒辦法回收了因為幾乎都吃光了"},{"start":321.903,"end":348.528,"text":"對不對是 審計部有沒有打算針對食安追溯系統過度的依賴業者誠實的申報的盲區來啟動專案的查核來揪出整個系統性的失職那個我們非常同意委員的意見我們會因為這個關係啊個人的健康安全所以這個部分我們會照委員的意思啟動這樣的一個整個專案調查"},{"start":351.368,"end":377.579,"text":"要嚴格嚴苛啦一點點都不能馬虎啦包括你家人你什麼誰都知道啦不是只有說今天我來質詢這個我本身沒有吃到沒有那回事啦中聯油脂自來的問題啊牽連到許多食品業者最近已經有超商業者陸續啊退款給這些消費者根據媒體的報導全台共有一千三百"},{"start":378.439,"end":394.775,"text":"八十所的學校營養午餐曾使用過問題有本席選區當然也有啦學校受害很多的學校都受害請問教育部與地方政府是否有討論將營養午餐退回給家長張亮"},{"start":401.817,"end":428.986,"text":"那目前這個我們還在因為那個那個整個委員剛才所提到的那個一千八百所是那當時擴大那個那個追查所以那時候是比較寬鬆的把它都認定那事後呢我們經過篩選之後呢是兩百六十效是兩百六十效然後那個委員所講的那個退款的部分那個涉及到一些責任跟契約的部分我們會進一步來了解來處理"},{"start":430.148,"end":456.845,"text":"那個你認為學童吃到問題油的時間範圍到底有多久你們有沒有去了解去查我們是在接貨這個那個食安食藥署的通報之後我們第一部分第一時間我們就透過那個食材登錄系統馬上去追溯去了解那個用到的學校那第一是在清查的時候我們在篩的時候是擴大只要有可能用譬如說那個"},{"start":457.685,"end":476.792,"text":"那個只要用沙拉油那我們把它弄出來之後我們就開始來來過濾過濾完之後那再針對第二譬如說他有這個用這個油品在重製的一些食品的項目然後我們再去看不斷的篩我們也是很努力在篩選這個有影響的學校"},{"start":477.557,"end":494.856,"text":"本席向以新北市國中營養午餐為例每個月營養午餐的費用家長要繳差不多兩千兩百元那如果要退費金額出估要多少如何協助這些團善的業者向上游廠商來求償因為這個有連貫性的為什麼"},{"start":497.699,"end":514.17,"text":"因為衛福部對這些業者開罰了1.6億元那這批錢繳進了國庫但是那些把致癌物吃到肚子裡面無辜的民眾他到底有什麼實質上的賠償沒有啊"},{"start":518.032,"end":534.16,"text":"那錢進到國庫大家都擔心這種致癌物對健康的危害是長期的累積的喔如果五年十年後民眾的身體真的出了狀況現行的法律體系下一般老百姓根本就沒有能力去舉證啊對不對那這個"},{"start":538.928,"end":553.113,"text":"甚至於說這些舉證的人說我的病是因為當年吃了這瓶毒油所產生的後遺症有三點請衛福部也要回答第一 代位求償跟團體訴訟的進度"},{"start":556.542,"end":570.4,"text":"不能讓這些受害的民眾自己去面對大財團的律師團衛福部要建立單一的獨游受害登記平台並由政府出面負責求償跟訴訟"},{"start":571.901,"end":594.835,"text":"報告委員我們已經啟動就是我們在消保行政院消保處跟我們一起合作我們已經跟國內兩個就是我們過去大家信任度很高的消保團體已經討論了那接下來會由食安基金這邊來支援相關的團體訴訟我們所做所為一定要讓全民知道這是關係到全民的事那像1.6億元花的是否專款用於受害者的補償"},{"start":595.635,"end":621.19,"text":"公報委員這1.6億進來會到時候進到其中有一部分進到食安基金食安基金那個是小事啦問題是你最重要你花了款他本來受償還不只1.6億的被害者難道只有這樣而已嗎因為現在檢調我們跟檢調這邊合作那對於上游的這個廠商這一邊後續他的法律責任以及還有很多需要求償的對求償部分有一些法律上的部分我們在做一些處理"},{"start":621.63,"end":650.398,"text":"因為這筆黑心廠商身上划來的1.6億以及啊沒收的不划所得不應該默默吞進國庫啦衛福部是否會將這筆錢啊設立為受害者健康追蹤跟補償的專屬基金這個跟過去的一些相關郵政的那個案子不太一樣這個是一個它本身品質的問題那所以說後續這些相關這個廠商必須要在法律的責任以及求償的部分先讓我們在司法的部分"},{"start":651.118,"end":668.796,"text":"你們要走在前頭啊因為齁你用來這些錢要用來置物後續民眾醫療檢測以及法律上面的訴訟費自我以針對涉案的企業進行啊資產的保全這個很重要啊不是讓他就這樣子全部都脫產"},{"start":670.077,"end":690.234,"text":"對不對為了避免廠商脫產衛福部有沒有第一時間向法院申請假扣押這些涉案業者的資產確保後續的求償你們有沒有做我們現在跟檢調一起在合作不是檢調合作啦你們要更前衛的啦因為這是關係到全民啦健康的問題我是希望已經提醒你們你們不做"},{"start":694.797,"end":694.937,"text":"主席"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:22:35.930000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:22:36.090000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:22:37.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:22:49.478000+08:00","text":"是不是請主計長，還有審計長，包括衛福部林次長，還有教育部的張廖次長？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:22:49.698000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:22:49.798000+08:00","text":"請四位。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:22:49.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:22:52.940000+08:00","text":"首先我請衛福部次長。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:22:52.940000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:23:03.900000+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:23:03.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:23:16.007000+08:00","text":"這次整個致癌油，尤其毒油波及的商品之廣，全臺民眾基本上都是逃不掉的，多少都有吃到。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:23:16.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:23:25.993000+08:00","text":"根據統計，109年到111年3年，衛福部、農業部、環境部包括教育部、經濟部合計至少投入296億，我想這些都是人民的納稅錢來建構食安五環，難道只要業者知情不報，整個食安的檢測機制就會完全癱瘓，變成瞎子嗎？","quality":0.383},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:23:29.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:23:31.016000+08:00","text":"次長，你的看法呢？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:23:47.968000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:24:08.031000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員報告，其實我們至少在最近111年到114年這4年都有專案補助，要求地方政府對於油品相關產品進行查驗，所以這個部分其實不同的地方政府在專案裡面也有不同的頻次去對於這些油品的業者進行查驗。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:24:08.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:24:15.098000+08:00","text":"你認為整個衛福部在這次的大漏洞，到底問題出在哪裡？","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:24:15.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:24:28.451000+08:00","text":"這一次因為我們過去是讓業者自主通報，當然我們接下來食安法的精進裡面，對於自主通報這邊，我們其實現在會保持質疑，我們會希望相關檢驗的數據，要有第三方公正單位去做檢驗。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:24:29.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:24:42.666000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，在檢驗相關的部分，產品有一些不同的工廠，有的是很大，像這一次中聯是很大型的製油工廠，所以像這樣大型的製油工廠，它的檢驗頻次應該要增加。","quality":0.894},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:24:43.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:25:12.479000+08:00","text":"對啊，一開始就要增加，而且你看三家最大的公司幾乎都是投資在它那裡，其實它是一體的，它出問題，北到南、南到北幾乎都出狀況，而且你看包括夜市、7-11幾乎都涵蓋在裡面，很多食品都需要下架，這個問題非常嚴重。","quality":0.965},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:25:14.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:25:29.263000+08:00","text":"對於市占率非常大而且每個月產油批次相對多的大型業者，我們後續在食安法會對於檢驗的頻次，還有檢驗及自主通報的相關程序、時間全部都修正。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:25:29.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:25:39.606000+08:00","text":"我希望你們要嚴格去要求、規範，一點都疏忽不得，因為吃到肚子裡面是吐不出來的，而且後續還會衍生很多問題。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:25:42.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:25:54.549000+08:00","text":"請問主計、審計，政府在食安上砸大錢、建系統，早期預警的功能卻絲毫都沒有，人民感到很無奈。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:25:57.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:02.691000+08:00","text":"主計總處在籌編明年食安預算的時候，有沒有檢討？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:02.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:02.992000+08:00","text":"主計長，你們有沒有檢討？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:09.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:16.894000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們會請業務單位……因為這一次的事件，他們已經在深入檢討當中。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:17.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:20.035000+08:00","text":"你們要針對問題、探討問題，思考怎麼解決問題，不是被動式的，現在政府官員就是被動式的，所以人民很憤怒。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:20.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:37.891000+08:00","text":"講實在話，你們要主動、積極，食安一點都馬虎不得，不容許有任何的狀況。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:37.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:43.192000+08:00","text":"你看全國多少學生，有的正在成長，卻讓他們吃那些毒油。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:44.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:48.633000+08:00","text":"根據主計總處統計，115年度食安五環預算共編列了47.2億元，116年度食安五環預算會再成長嗎？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:48.633000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:26:48.653000+08:00","text":"會不會？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T09:26:59.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:00.021000+08:00","text":"還沒有統計。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:00.021000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:01.021000+08:00","text":"還沒有統計？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:00.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:08.186000+08:00","text":"因為目前分散在各部會，各部會要編列多少，我們還在統計中，而116年度的預算籌編也正在進行當中。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:08.326000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:17.651000+08:00","text":"我希望你們用一點心，因為食安的東西一點都不能馬虎，容不得一點疏忽。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:19.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:23.534000+08:00","text":"你認為稽查人員與檢驗設備的預算需不需要成長？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:23.534000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:29.163000+08:00","text":"他如果有需要就應該……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:29.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:32.444000+08:00","text":"就不是他有需要，是人民有需要。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:33.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:35.265000+08:00","text":"我跟你講……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:35.265000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:36.265000+08:00","text":"人民有需要也應該要核列。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:35.265000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:41.287000+08:00","text":"是人民有需要，因為看到這樣的政府一點效率都沒有，而且是被動式的。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:43.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:50.329000+08:00","text":"第二關卡、第三關卡呈報以後，隔了多久才顯現出來？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:50.329000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:51.190000+08:00","text":"你看又吃了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:52.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:27:57.963000+08:00","text":"要回收也沒有辦法，因為幾乎都吃光了，對不對？是。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:27:58.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:11.165000+08:00","text":"審計部有沒有打算針對食安追溯系統過度依賴業者誠實申報的盲區，啟動專案查核，揪出整個系統性的失職？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:12.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:23.508000+08:00","text":"我們非常同意委員的意見，因為關係國人的健康安全，所以這個部分我們會照委員的意思，啟動專案調查。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:26.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:29.609000+08:00","text":"要嚴格、嚴苛，一點點都不能馬虎！","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:29.609000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:31.350000+08:00","text":"我們會從嚴從緊。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:31.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:39.493000+08:00","text":"包括你的家人，誰都有吃到，不是今天我來質詢，我本身沒有吃到，沒有那回事！","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:40.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:28:49.397000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂致癌的問題，牽連到許多食品業者，最近已經有超商業者陸續退款給消費者。","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:28:49.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:05.491000+08:00","text":"根據媒體報導，全臺共有1,380所學校的營養午餐曾使用過問題油，本席選區當然也有，很多學校都受害。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:07.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:09.755000+08:00","text":"請問教育部與地方政府是否有討論，將營養午餐退費給家長？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:09.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:16.917000+08:00","text":"有沒有？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:16.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:32.962000+08:00","text":"目前我們還在……委員剛才所提到的1,380所，當時是擴大追查，所以那時候是比較寬鬆的把它都認定，事後經過篩選之後是260校。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:36.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:43.966000+08:00","text":"有關委員所講退款的部分，涉及到一些責任跟契約，我們會進一步來了解、處理。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:47.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:29:52.473000+08:00","text":"學童吃到問題油的時間、範圍到底有多久，你們有沒有去了解、去查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T09:29:53.153000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:30:06.141000+08:00","text":"我們是在接獲食藥署的通報之後，第一時間就透過食材登錄系統馬上去追溯、了解用到的學校。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T09:30:06.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:30:31.772000+08:00","text":"第一次在清查的時候，我們是擴大，譬如只要用沙拉油，我們把它篩出來之後就開始過濾，過濾完之後，再針對譬如有用這個油品再重製的一些食品項目，我們再去看，不斷的篩，我們也是很努力在篩選出有受影響的學校。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:30:33.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:30:44.050000+08:00","text":"以新北市國中營養午餐為例，家長每個月要繳的費用差不多2,200元，如果要退費，金額粗估要多少？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:30:44.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:30:48.555000+08:00","text":"如何協助這些團膳業者向上游廠商求償？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:30:49.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:30:49.856000+08:00","text":"這個是有連貫性的，為什麼？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:30:52.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:31:09.029000+08:00","text":"因為衛福部對這些業者開罰了1.6億元，這筆錢繳進了國庫，但是那些把致癌物吃到肚子裡面無辜的民眾到底有什麼實質上的賠償？沒有！","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:31:13.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:31:29.140000+08:00","text":"雖然錢進到國庫，但大家都擔心這種致癌物對健康的危害是長期累積的，如果五年、十年後民眾的身體真的出了狀況，現行法律體系下，一般老百姓根本就沒有能力去舉證，對不對？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:31:33.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:31:40.931000+08:00","text":"甚至於這些人如果舉證，說他的病是因為當年吃了這些毒油所產生的後遺症，怎麼處理？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:31:42.271000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:05.400000+08:00","text":"所以有三點請衛福部回答，第一是有關代位求償跟團體訴訟的進度，不能讓這些受害的民眾自己面對大財團的律師團，衛福部要建立單一的毒油受害登記平臺，並由政府出面負責求償跟訴訟。","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:07.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:08.742000+08:00","text":"我們已經啟動。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:09.943000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:21.430000+08:00","text":"行政院消保處跟我們一起合作，我們跟國內兩個過去大家信任度很高的消保團體已經討論了，接下來會由食安基金來支援相關的團體訴訟。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:21.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:25.032000+08:00","text":"你們的所作所為一定要讓全民知道，這是關係到全民的事。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:26.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:29.835000+08:00","text":"罰的1.6億元是否專款用於受害者的補償？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:32.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:36.018000+08:00","text":"這1.6億到時候其中有一部分會進到食安基金，食安基金會去……","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:37.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:37.839000+08:00","text":"那個是小事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:38.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:46.064000+08:00","text":"最重要的問題是，雖然你罰款，但本來該獲償的還不只1.6億，被害者難道只有這樣而已嗎？","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:46.064000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:51.647000+08:00","text":"因為現在我們跟檢調合作，對於上游廠商後續的法律責任，以及後面相關的……","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:51.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:53.008000+08:00","text":"還有很多需要求償的！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:53.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:53.868000+08:00","text":"對，求償。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:54.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:32:56.170000+08:00","text":"有一些法律上的部分，我們會再做一些處理。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:32:56.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:13.235000+08:00","text":"因為這筆黑心廠商身上罰來的1.6億以及沒收的不法所得不應該默默吞進國庫，衛福部是否會將這筆錢設立為受害者健康追蹤跟補償的專屬基金？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:13.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:25.378000+08:00","text":"不過這個跟過去一些相關油症的案子不太一樣，這個是它本身品質的問題，所以後續相關廠商必須要負的法律責任以及求償，是不是讓我們在司法的部分進行後續處理？","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:26.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:40.072000+08:00","text":"但是你們要走在前頭，因為這些錢要用來支付後續民眾醫療檢測以及法律上面的訴訟費，是否已針對涉案的企業進行資產保全？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:40.933000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:41.373000+08:00","text":"這個很重要……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:41.373000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:42.373000+08:00","text":"這個是司法……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:41.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:46.398000+08:00","text":"不是讓它就這樣全部都脫產，對不對？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:46.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:56.386000+08:00","text":"為了避免廠商脫產，衛福部有沒有第一時間向法院聲請假扣押這些涉案業者的資產，確保後續的求償？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:56.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:57.107000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:57.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:33:58.928000+08:00","text":"我們現在跟檢調一起合作，要調查……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:33:59.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:04.433000+08:00","text":"不是跟檢調合作，你們要更前衛的，因為這是關係到全民健康的問題……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:04.433000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:05.433000+08:00","text":"我們會跟地方政府、檢方……","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"林委員德福","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:04.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:05.214000+08:00","text":"我已經提醒你們，你們不做，人民就來做！謝謝。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:05.714000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:08.285429+08:00","text":"林德福委員質詢結束。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:08.585429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:11.156857+08:00","text":"接下來請吳秉叡委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":112,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時22分）謝謝主席。是不是請主計長，還有審計長，包括衛福部林次長，還有教育部的張廖次長？"],["主席：請四位。"],["林委員德福：首先我請衛福部次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["林委員德福：這次整個致癌油，尤其毒油波及的商品之廣，全臺民眾基本上都是逃不掉的，多少都有吃到。根據統計，109年到111年3年，衛福部、農業部、環境部包括教育部、經濟部合計至少投入296億，我想這些都是人民的納稅錢來建構食安五環，難道只要業者知情不報，整個食安的檢測機制就會完全癱瘓，變成瞎子嗎？次長，你的看法呢？"],["林次長靜儀：我先跟委員報告，其實我們至少在最近111年到114年這4年都有專案補助，要求地方政府對於油品相關產品進行查驗，所以這個部分其實不同的地方政府在專案裡面也有不同的頻次去對於這些油品的業者進行查驗。"],["林委員德福：你認為整個衛福部在這次的大漏洞，到底問題出在哪裡？"],["林次長靜儀：這一次因為我們過去是讓業者自主通報，當然我們接下來食安法的精進裡面，對於自主通報這邊，我們其實現在會保持質疑，我們會希望相關檢驗的數據，要有第三方公正單位去做檢驗。第二個部分，在檢驗相關的部分，產品有一些不同的工廠，有的是很大，像這一次中聯是很大型的製油工廠，所以像這樣大型的製油工廠，它的檢驗頻次應該要增加。"],["林委員德福：對啊，一開始就要增加，而且你看三家最大的公司幾乎都是投資在它那裡，其實它是一體的，它出問題，北到南、南到北幾乎都出狀況，而且你看包括夜市、7-11幾乎都涵蓋在裡面，很多食品都需要下架，這個問題非常嚴重。"],["林次長靜儀：對於市占率非常大而且每個月產油批次相對多的大型業者，我們後續在食安法會對於檢驗的頻次，還有檢驗及自主通報的相關程序、時間全部都修正。"],["林委員德福：我希望你們要嚴格去要求、規範，一點都疏忽不得，因為吃到肚子裡面是吐不出來的，而且後續還會衍生很多問題。請問主計、審計，政府在食安上砸大錢、建系統，早期預警的功能卻絲毫都沒有，人民感到很無奈。主計總處在籌編明年食安預算的時候，有沒有檢討？主計長，你們有沒有檢討？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這個部分我們會請業務單位……因為這一次的事件，他們已經在深入檢討當中。"],["林委員德福：你們要針對問題、探討問題，思考怎麼解決問題，不是被動式的，現在政府官員就是被動式的，所以人民很憤怒。講實在話，你們要主動、積極，食安一點都馬虎不得，不容許有任何的狀況。你看全國多少學生，有的正在成長，卻讓他們吃那些毒油。根據主計總處統計，115年度食安五環預算共編列了47.2億元，116年度食安五環預算會再成長嗎？會不會？"],["陳主計長淑姿：還沒有統計。"],["林委員德福：還沒有統計？"],["陳主計長淑姿：因為目前分散在各部會，各部會要編列多少，我們還在統計中，而116年度的預算籌編也正在進行當中。"],["林委員德福：我希望你們用一點心，因為食安的東西一點都不能馬虎，容不得一點疏忽。你認為稽查人員與檢驗設備的預算需不需要成長？"],["陳主計長淑姿：他如果有需要就應該……"],["林委員德福：就不是他有需要，是人民有需要。我跟你講……"],["陳主計長淑姿：人民有需要也應該要核列。"],["林委員德福：是人民有需要，因為看到這樣的政府一點效率都沒有，而且是被動式的。第二關卡、第三關卡呈報以後，隔了多久才顯現出來？你看又吃了多少？要回收也沒有辦法，因為幾乎都吃光了，對不對？"],["陳主計長淑姿：是。"],["林委員德福：審計部有沒有打算針對食安追溯系統過度依賴業者誠實申報的盲區，啟動專案查核，揪出整個系統性的失職？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們非常同意委員的意見，因為關係國人的健康安全，所以這個部分我們會照委員的意思，啟動專案調查。"],["林委員德福：要嚴格、嚴苛，一點點都不能馬虎！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會從嚴從緊。"],["林委員德福：包括你的家人，誰都有吃到，不是今天我來質詢，我本身沒有吃到，沒有那回事！中聯油脂致癌的問題，牽連到許多食品業者，最近已經有超商業者陸續退款給消費者。根據媒體報導，全臺共有1,380所學校的營養午餐曾使用過問題油，本席選區當然也有，很多學校都受害。請問教育部與地方政府是否有討論，將營養午餐退費給家長？有沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前我們還在……委員剛才所提到的1,380所，當時是擴大追查，所以那時候是比較寬鬆的把它都認定，事後經過篩選之後是260校。有關委員所講退款的部分，涉及到一些責任跟契約，我們會進一步來了解、處理。"],["林委員德福：學童吃到問題油的時間、範圍到底有多久，你們有沒有去了解、去查？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是在接獲食藥署的通報之後，第一時間就透過食材登錄系統馬上去追溯、了解用到的學校。第一次在清查的時候，我們是擴大，譬如只要用沙拉油，我們把它篩出來之後就開始過濾，過濾完之後，再針對譬如有用這個油品再重製的一些食品項目，我們再去看，不斷的篩，我們也是很努力在篩選出有受影響的學校。"],["林委員德福：以新北市國中營養午餐為例，家長每個月要繳的費用差不多2,200元，如果要退費，金額粗估要多少？如何協助這些團膳業者向上游廠商求償？這個是有連貫性的，為什麼？因為衛福部對這些業者開罰了1.6億元，這筆錢繳進了國庫，但是那些把致癌物吃到肚子裡面無辜的民眾到底有什麼實質上的賠償？沒有！雖然錢進到國庫，但大家都擔心這種致癌物對健康的危害是長期累積的，如果五年、十年後民眾的身體真的出了狀況，現行法律體系下，一般老百姓根本就沒有能力去舉證，對不對？甚至於這些人如果舉證，說他的病是因為當年吃了這些毒油所產生的後遺症，怎麼處理？所以有三點請衛福部回答，第一是有關代位求償跟團體訴訟的進度，不能讓這些受害的民眾自己面對大財團的律師團，衛福部要建立單一的毒油受害登記平臺，並由政府出面負責求償跟訴訟。"],["林次長靜儀：我們已經啟動。行政院消保處跟我們一起合作，我們跟國內兩個過去大家信任度很高的消保團體已經討論了，接下來會由食安基金來支援相關的團體訴訟。"],["林委員德福：你們的所作所為一定要讓全民知道，這是關係到全民的事。罰的1.6億元是否專款用於受害者的補償？"],["林次長靜儀：這1.6億到時候其中有一部分會進到食安基金，食安基金會去……"],["林委員德福：那個是小事。最重要的問題是，雖然你罰款，但本來該獲償的還不只1.6億，被害者難道只有這樣而已嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：因為現在我們跟檢調合作，對於上游廠商後續的法律責任，以及後面相關的……"],["林委員德福：還有很多需要求償的！"],["林次長靜儀：對，求償。有一些法律上的部分，我們會再做一些處理。"],["林委員德福：因為這筆黑心廠商身上罰來的1.6億以及沒收的不法所得不應該默默吞進國庫，衛福部是否會將這筆錢設立為受害者健康追蹤跟補償的專屬基金？"],["林次長靜儀：不過這個跟過去一些相關油症的案子不太一樣，這個是它本身品質的問題，所以後續相關廠商必須要負的法律責任以及求償，是不是讓我們在司法的部分進行後續處理？"],["林委員德福：但是你們要走在前頭，因為這些錢要用來支付後續民眾醫療檢測以及法律上面的訴訟費，是否已針對涉案的企業進行資產保全？這個很重要……"],["林次長靜儀：這個是司法……"],["林委員德福：不是讓它就這樣全部都脫產，對不對？為了避免廠商脫產，衛福部有沒有第一時間向法院聲請假扣押這些涉案業者的資產，確保後續的求償？你們有沒有做？"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在跟檢調一起合作，要調查……"],["林委員德福：不是跟檢調合作，你們要更前衛的，因為這是關係到全民健康的問題……"],["林次長靜儀：我們會跟地方政府、檢方……"],["林委員德福：我已經提醒你們，你們不做，人民就來做！謝謝。"],["主席：林德福委員質詢結束。","接下來請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}