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今年進了四桶瓦斯從那一年整年就是那四桶瓦斯他整整八九六月都沒有珍珠所以同一批廚餘 他還有分給隔壁的養豬場隔壁的養豬場有珍珠 就沒有發生非洲豬瘟那一個發生非洲豬瘟的那個養豬場 沒有珍珠"},{"start":161.095,"end":176.922,"text":"所以才讓台灣非洲租用的房子破了一個大漏洞我現在要跟你講的是 中央政府在這邊很努力 四人單單有規劃有政策如果協力配合的地方政府不執行"},{"start":178.527,"end":202.242,"text":"不去進行他該做的工作一樣破一個大洞啊所以將來這個前車附後車間嘛現在出現了一個這樣的狀況那將來各地方的地方政府如果沒有好好的照法律的規定去做落實他該進行的查驗的時候或他該進行的工作的時候"},{"start":203.533,"end":227.914,"text":"那導致這樣破洞的時候要把這事情講清楚啊誰該負責任我當然知道站在中央政府的立場是既然已經發生了我們趕快來協助地方政府一起來補這個漏洞因為這個油炸出來之後有獨子的油是流全國的不是只有台中在用啊中間公司的進口的大豆就是在台中港炸油的啊"},{"start":229.605,"end":248.232,"text":"那地方政府到底有沒有做了他該做的工作中央政府有沒有做了他該做的工作這是我要今天在這個地方想向你請教想向你討教的謝謝委員當然我們也檢討過就是說在現在我們接下來要處理的過去訂的檢驗評次當然我們訂的是最低的應該要的檢驗評次"},{"start":249.833,"end":271.181,"text":"可是其實依照不同的地方政府他看到他的這個廠他本身製造的這個評次等等事實上我們當然希望他們可以因為不同的規格或他的量很大那他去增加他的抽驗評次或者是增加他在檢驗上面的一些應該要的作為你不要欺荒地方政府這樣啦我待過地方政府如果中方政府去給他規定一年檢四次"},{"start":272.401,"end":298.893,"text":"他能夠一年做到減四次就已經不錯啦你要說如果量大的話希望他主動能夠增加沒有什麼叫主動能夠增加的大家把這個東西寫清楚講明白過去他生產的量你是以量來調查還是以時間來調查這個東西都要講清楚我們接下來會調整我們要求的檢驗評次要把它的依照它的量或者它的規模然後去做它的要求所以我是覺得說"},{"start":300.094,"end":324.853,"text":"對我們自己要求很高這是很好那中央政府這一次你覺得哪一些地方做得還可以哪些地方沒有做到在法令規定的Fund Renew你不要講說以前因為法令的不完備135款現在的確被檢討嘛大家認為說應該再訂得更嚴我跟你說這麼嚴這麼嚴如果有人不去落實有人不去執行最後還是有可能會出現破洞"},{"start":326.074,"end":354.451,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝委員給我們這個機會啦我們是6月30收到通知7月1號我們就立刻跟6月30收到通知就跟地方政府一起下去這次包含減掉那減掉的動作也非常的快那我們食藥署會配合這邊 跟減掉這邊合作來把中間的一些部分做一些釐清那當然在相關的 現在在處理上面我們其實本來是希望本來是說它有問題的由我們先處理但是後來認為事態可能相當嚴重所以我們把4月到6月做一個預防性的下架"},{"start":355.351,"end":367.167,"text":"那這幾個目前是我們現在正在處理的部分我跟你說你行政機關有行政機關的作為你專權評檢調本席就來自法院啦我年輕的時候當法官啦"},{"start":368.909,"end":395.656,"text":"檢調他會不會因為公務員員疏於執行職務然後造成災害去辦這個在未定之天我們司法都不能干涉我們也沒有辦法講但是司法的時間真的要很長將來可能很久以後被冤枉的人才有辦法獲得一個證明他是有努力做他的工作的所以我是覺得大家應該要講清楚另外你們對地方政府有沒有督導的選擇因為現在啊"},{"start":396.676,"end":413.818,"text":"大家都強調中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係所以都變得互相很客氣那如果地方政府該做的工作沒有做的時候你中央政府要拿出什麼樣的態度來跟他應對呢謝謝委員真的講到重點因為我們一開始依照食安法整個全責在檢查驗等等相關還有通報是地方"},{"start":414.158,"end":437.281,"text":"後來我們跟食藥署這邊說如果都等地方整理完一輪再上來給我們我們對民眾的資訊會有delay的問題所以後來我們就要求這些廠商直接跟食藥署對也就是他們不論是下架的進度或者是廠商這邊他們相關目前已經查到的資料全部直接要進到食藥署食藥署這邊同時同步跟地方政府得到同樣的資訊甚至更早要拿到資訊"},{"start":438.722,"end":452.127,"text":"希望你這一部分能夠盡加緊但是問題是你是中央部會你不可能把所有地方政府該做的事全部都包攬起來所以對地方政府沒有認真執行他的職務的時候該職務的處理要想一套辦法這個獨職到底是從哪裡來"},{"start":460.213,"end":486.85,"text":"這個其實它是在製造過程中其實這個 就是說這個本田皮事實上像大家在烤肉或高溫烹煮的過程中其實都很容易發生是啦 但是大豆油它是冷嘎的嘛所以這個獨子有一個說法說因為大量進口巴西的黃豆那巴西的黃豆在採收的過程中因為它比較濕 是所以它要用很高的溫度來去烘乾"},{"start":488.018,"end":514.097,"text":"那跟美國的黃豆聽說還不一樣美國的還沒有這麼濕那是不是如果是原料的來源有問題原料在輸送的過程中在烘乾的過程中儲存的過程中產生的問題這個可能不是你現在三聲五令在那邊要求說你每一批給我查驗原料有問題每一批做出來都有問題啊所以他就必須要造假才有辦法繼續生存"},{"start":514.537,"end":539.671,"text":"其實報告委員事實上您講到我們目前至少在開的專家會議裡面也認為說可能是它原來豆子比較濕那比較濕它烘乾過程造成可是這個事實上是它如果這個廠商它有中間它真的採取HACCP標準的製程以及這個製程中有注意到它可能因為原料比較濕溫度比較高會產生這個問題它在製程中就能夠避免產生本田皮超標的問題所以目前我們對於中聯"},{"start":540.772,"end":555.843,"text":"最重要的一個事情為什麼到現在不讓他復工就是他中間的這個HACCP的品管他還沒有提出我們可以接受的說法好 那我現在是請教你一個問題因為現在全世界最主要的大豆產地是巴西全世界最大的量是它"},{"start":556.443,"end":574.446,"text":"那因為他那邊的濕度是比較高所以他產生的這個豆子他在烘乾在乾燥的過程中要用比較高的溫度而且因為他量大他為了要快速所以他不用比較高的溫度如果是原料有問題你們把問題抓出來之後針對這一些點除了製造的過程原料有沒有問題這個都要做詳細的比對跟查驗不然的話將來還會再出現相同的狀況其實我想委員我們也都知道農產品他本來就有不同的品質的狀況"},{"start":585.848,"end":604.626,"text":"那但是如果照HACCP的原則就是這個標準製程的話或者是我們講優良品管的製程它在製程中它就應該知道會發生這樣的狀況而在品管上面來做避免發生這樣事情的問題意思是說就算是那個豆子有問題只要它製造的方式改良也可以降低這個豆子就對了老實說它中過程如果處理得好就不會發生這種問題"},{"start":606.868,"end":627.156,"text":"好 繼續加油 我跟你講我個人認為的觀點是地方政府如果他的執行有什麼問題你村政府一定要有對策因為你聽信他說大家分工 夥伴關係他出的問題是你在背鍋啦是加油謝謝委員 謝謝好 我們結束秉瑞委員的質詢接下來請第三位賴世寶委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:33+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:34+08:00","text":"主席，麻煩請衛福部林次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:34+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:35+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:35+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:36+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:34.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:34.840000+08:00","text":"次長早。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:36.305000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:37.449000+08:00","text":"這一次的事件依照法律權責是如何劃分？","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:37.449000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:47.532000+08:00","text":"中央負責哪一部分，地方政府負責哪一部分，可不可以請你說明？","quality":0.077},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:47.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:34:54.053000+08:00","text":"中央在食安法訂定相關檢驗以及後續檢驗的一些規定，還有檢驗的品項；執行檢驗是地方政府。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:34:55.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:02.575000+08:00","text":"所以這一次延緩申報就你的觀點來看，是中央政府的責任還是地方政府的責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:03.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:05.015000+08:00","text":"我們都會一起處理啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:06.015000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:14.699000+08:00","text":"所以是中央政府有講，要中央政府跟地方政府合力來解決這個食安問題，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:14.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:24.264000+08:00","text":"是，而且報告委員，其實相關油品品質的部分，在111到114年我們本來就有一些檢驗的專案，那時候也是請地方政府去做檢查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:24.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:27.306000+08:00","text":"這次地方政府有沒有檢驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:27.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:33.009000+08:00","text":"地方政府在這次的資料裡面，在前半年我們有看到他有要求檢驗的資料。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:35.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:35.600000+08:00","text":"有檢驗幾次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:36.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:40.643000+08:00","text":"他的頻率有沒有符合你們的要求跟法令的規定？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:41.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:47.146000+08:00","text":"今年有一次，但是……今年的專案有，但是今年還沒過去驗，我們現在的資料……","quality":0.517},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:47.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:51.448000+08:00","text":"今年現在已經7月了，還沒去驗？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:51.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:53.149000+08:00","text":"所以今年上半年都沒驗嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:53.149000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:56.189000+08:00","text":"我跟你說……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:56.189000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:35:59.229000+08:00","text":"請副署長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡副署長淑貞","start":"2026-07-15T09:35:59.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:12.045000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們剛才講的是由衛生單位直接到現場主動的稽查，111年到114年是有去查4次，今年臺中市食安處也有規劃去查，這個主動稽查……","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:12.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:13.045000+08:00","text":"有規劃去查，有沒有去查？","quality":0.1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:13.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:14.045000+08:00","text":"今年的還沒查，但是這個事件當下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:14.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:15.045000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，今天是7月15號了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"蔡副署長淑貞","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:15.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:16.045000+08:00","text":"事件當下，這件事情的處理就已經去到現場查核3到4次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:16.045000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:17.045000+08:00","text":"那就是發生了之後才去查的，之前都沒有查嘛，我要跟你講一件事情喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:13.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:36:14.408000+08:00","text":"記不記得臺中發生非洲豬瘟的傳染事件？是。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:36:37.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:37:18.437000+08:00","text":"全國其他的養豬場用廚餘養豬都沒有出現問題，就那一個場有問題，因為其他的廚餘是有經過蒸煮的，結果那一個場今年進了4桶瓦斯，從那一年整年就是那4桶瓦斯，他整整8、9個月都沒有蒸煮，所以同一批廚餘，他還有分給隔壁的養豬場，隔壁的養豬場有蒸煮就沒有發生非洲豬瘟，發生非洲豬瘟的那一個養豬場沒有蒸煮，所以才讓臺灣非洲豬瘟的防治破了一個大漏洞。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:37:18.437000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:37:20.378000+08:00","text":"是，因為我們……","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:37:20.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:01.077000+08:00","text":"現在要跟你講的是，中央政府在這邊很努力，信誓旦旦有規劃、有政策，如果協力配合的地方政府不執行，不去進行他該做的工作，一樣破一個大洞，所以「前車覆，後車戒」，現在出現了一個這樣的狀況，將來各地的地方政府如果沒有好好的照法律規定去做、落實他該進行的查驗或該進行的工作的時候，而導致這樣破洞，要把這事情講清楚，誰該負責任？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:01.077000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:02.398000+08:00","text":"是，其實……","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:02.398000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:15.569000+08:00","text":"我當然知道，站在中央政府的立場是既然已經發生了，我們趕快來協助地方政府一起來補這個漏洞，因為這個油榨出來之後，有毒質的油是流全國的，不是只有臺中在用。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:15.569000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:17.471000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:17.471000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:27.147000+08:00","text":"這間公司進口的大豆就是在臺中港榨油的，地方政府到底有沒有做他該做的工作？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:27.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:29.568000+08:00","text":"中央政府有沒有做他該做的工作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:29.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:34.130000+08:00","text":"這是我要今天在這個地方想向你請教、想向你討教的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:34.390000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:38:58.899000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，當然我們也檢討過，現在我們接下來要處理的就是對於過去訂的檢驗頻次，當然，我們訂的是最低的、應該要的檢驗頻次，可是其實依照不同的地方政府看到他的廠本身製造的頻次等等，事實上，我們當然希望他們可以因為不同的規格或量很大而去增加他的抽驗頻次，或者是增加他在檢驗上面的一些應該要的作為。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:38:58.899000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:16.466000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，你不要寄望地方政府這樣，我待過地方政府，如果中央政府現在規定一年檢4次，他能夠一年做到檢4次就已經很不錯了，你要說如果量大的話，希望他主動能夠增加，沒有什麼叫主動能夠增加的，大家把這個東西寫清楚、講明白……","quality":0.874},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:17.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:17.867000+08:00","text":"對，過去都是……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:18.047000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:22.469000+08:00","text":"有關他生產的量，你是以量來抽查，還是以時間來抽查？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:23.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:23.690000+08:00","text":"這個東西都要講清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:23.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:30.493000+08:00","text":"我們接下來會調整我們要求的檢驗頻次，要依照他的量或者他的規模，然後去做對他的要求。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:31.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:39.199000+08:00","text":"所以我是覺得對我們自己要求很高，這是很好，你覺得中央政府這一次哪一些地方做得還可以，哪些地方沒有做到？","quality":0.936},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:40.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:39:57.833000+08:00","text":"在法令規定的範圍內，你不要講說以前因為法令的不完備，食安五環現在的確被檢討，大家認為應該再訂得更嚴，我跟你說，就算定這麼嚴、這麼嚴，如果有人不去落實，有人不去執行，最後還是有可能會出現破洞。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:39:59.074000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:40:30.534000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員給我們這個機會，我們是6月30日收到通知，就立刻跟地方政府一起下去，這次包含檢調，檢調的動作也非常的快，我們食藥署會配合跟檢調這邊合作來把中間的一些部分釐清，當然現在在處理上面，我們其實本來是說我們先處理有問題的油，但是後來認為事態可能相當嚴重，所以我們針對4月到6月做一個預防性下架，這幾個目前是我們現在正在處理的部分。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:40:30.655000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:40:55.192000+08:00","text":"我跟你說，行政機關有行政機關的作為，你全憑檢調，本席就來自法院，我年輕的時候當法官，檢調會不會因為公務人員疏於執行職務而釀成災害去辦，這個在未定之天，我們都不能干涉司法，我們也沒有辦法講，但是司法的時間真的要很長。是。","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:40:55.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:41:04.935000+08:00","text":"將來可能很久以後被冤枉的人才有辦法獲得一個證明，他是有努力做他的工作的，所以我是覺得大家應該要講清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:41:05.095000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:41:07.395000+08:00","text":"另外，你們對地方政府有沒有督導的權責？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:41:07.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:41:19.428000+08:00","text":"因為現在大家都強調，中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，所以他們互相變得很客氣，如果地方政府該做的工作沒有做的時候，你中央政府要拿出什麼態度來跟他應對呢？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:41:20.370000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:41:50.281000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員真的講到重點，因為我們一開始依照食安法，整個權責在查驗等等相關的、還有通報是地方，後來我們跟食藥署這邊說，如果都等地方整理完一輪再上來給我們，我們對民眾的資訊會有delay的問題，所以後來我們就要求這些廠商直接跟食藥署對，也就是他們不論是下架的進度，或者是廠商這邊他們相關目前已經查到的資料全部直接要進到食藥署，食藥署這邊同時同步跟地方政府得到同樣的資訊，甚至要更早拿到資訊。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:41:51.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:41:59.365000+08:00","text":"好，希望你這一部分能夠儘快加緊，但問題是你是中央部會，你不可能把所有地方政府該做的事全部都包攬起來。是。","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:41:59.365000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:42:04.967000+08:00","text":"所以對地方政府沒有認真執行他的職務時，該如何處理，要想一套辦法。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:42:04.967000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:42:05.967000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員提醒。","quality":0},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:42:04.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:42:05.127000+08:00","text":"這個毒質到底是從哪裡來？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:42:13.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:42:21.158000+08:00","text":"這個其實是在製造過程中，這個「苯駢芘」事實上像大家在烤肉或高溫烹煮的過程中，其實都很容易發生。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:42:21.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:43:07.077000+08:00","text":"是，但是大豆油是冷軋的，所以這個毒質有一個說法是因為大量進口巴西黃豆，巴西黃豆在採收的過程中因為比較溼，所以要用很高的溫度來去烘乾，美國的黃豆聽說還不一樣，美國的還沒有這麼溼，如果是原料的來源有問題，原料在輸送的過程中、在烘乾的過程中、儲存的過程中產生的問題，這個可能不是你現在三令五申在那邊要求他每一批都要查驗就好，若原料有問題，每一批做出來都有問題，所以他就必須要造假，才有辦法繼續生存。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:43:07.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:43:40.537000+08:00","text":"其實，報告委員，事實上您講到……至少我們目前在開的專家會議裡面也認為說，可能是原來的豆子比較溼，所以是烘乾過程造成的，可是事實上如果這個廠商中間真的採取HACCP的標準製程，以及這個製程中有注意到可能因為原料比較溼、溫度比較高會產生這個問題，他在製程中就能夠避免產生苯駢芘超標的問題，所以目前我們對於中聯最重要一個事情，為什麼到現在不讓他復工，就是他中間HACCP的品管，他還沒有提出我們可以接受的說法。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:43:41.077000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:01.505000+08:00","text":"好，我現在請教你一個問題，因為現在全世界最主要的大豆產地是巴西，占全世界最大的量是它，因為它那邊的溼度是比較高，所以它產生的豆子在烘乾、乾燥的過程中要用比較高的溫度，而且因為量大，它為了要快速，所以必須用比較高的溫度。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:02.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:05.946000+08:00","text":"如果是原料有問題，你們把問題抓出來之後，針對這些點，除了製造的過程，原料有沒有問題，這個都要比較詳細的比對跟查驗，不然將來還會再出現相同的狀況。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:05.946000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:29.999000+08:00","text":"其實，委員，我們也都知道農產品本來就有不同品質的狀況，但是如果照HACCP的原則，就是標準製程或者我們講優良品管的製程，他在製程中就應該知道會發生這樣的狀況，而在品管上面來避免發生這樣的問題。","quality":0.989},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:29.999000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:35.184000+08:00","text":"意思是就算是那個豆子有問題，只要他製造的方式改良，也可以降低這個東西。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:35.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:37.626000+08:00","text":"豆子比較濕，中間過程如果處理得好，就不會發生這種問題。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:39.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:40.989000+08:00","text":"好，繼續加油。","quality":1},{"speaker":"吳委員秉叡","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:41.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:54.013000+08:00","text":"我跟你講的，我個人認為的觀點是，如果地方政府的執行有什麼問題，中央政府一定要有對策，因為你聽信他說大家分工、夥伴關係，他出的問題是你在背鍋，加油！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:54.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:55.974000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:56.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:44:57.975000+08:00","text":"我們結束吳秉叡委員的質詢。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:44:57.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:45:00.156000+08:00","text":"接下來請第3位賴士葆委員。","quality":0.818}]},"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時34分）主席，麻煩請衛福部林次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。這一次的事件依照法律權責是如何劃分？中央負責哪一部分，地方政府負責哪一部分，可不可以請你說明？"],["林次長靜儀：中央在食安法訂定相關檢驗以及後續檢驗的一些規定，還有檢驗的品項；執行檢驗是地方政府。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以這一次延緩申報就你的觀點來看，是中央政府的責任還是地方政府的責任？"],["林次長靜儀：我們都會一起處理啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是中央政府有講，要中央政府跟地方政府合力來解決這個食安問題，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：是，而且報告委員，其實相關油品品質的部分，在111到114年我們本來就有一些檢驗的專案，那時候也是請地方政府去做檢查。"],["吳委員秉叡：這次地方政府有沒有檢驗？"],["林次長靜儀：地方政府在這次的資料裡面，在前半年我們有看到他有要求檢驗的資料。"],["吳委員秉叡：有檢驗幾次？他的頻率有沒有符合你們的要求跟法令的規定？"],["林次長靜儀：今年有一次，但是……今年的專案有，但是今年還沒過去驗，我們現在的資料……"],["吳委員秉叡：今年現在已經7月了，還沒去驗？所以今年上半年都沒驗嘛！我跟你說……"],["林次長靜儀：請副署長。"],["蔡副署長淑貞：報告委員，我們剛才講的是由衛生單位直接到現場主動的稽查，111年到114年是有去查4次，今年臺中市食安處也有規劃去查，這個主動稽查……"],["吳委員秉叡：有規劃去查，有沒有去查？"],["林次長靜儀：今年的還沒查，但是這個事件當下……"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，今天是7月15號了。"],["蔡副署長淑貞：事件當下，這件事情的處理就已經去到現場查核3到4次。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是發生了之後才去查的，之前都沒有查嘛，我要跟你講一件事情喔！記不記得臺中發生非洲豬瘟的傳染事件？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：全國其他的養豬場用廚餘養豬都沒有出現問題，就那一個場有問題，因為其他的廚餘是有經過蒸煮的，結果那一個場今年進了4桶瓦斯，從那一年整年就是那4桶瓦斯，他整整8、9個月都沒有蒸煮，所以同一批廚餘，他還有分給隔壁的養豬場，隔壁的養豬場有蒸煮就沒有發生非洲豬瘟，發生非洲豬瘟的那一個養豬場沒有蒸煮，所以才讓臺灣非洲豬瘟的防治破了一個大漏洞。"],["林次長靜儀：是，因為我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：現在要跟你講的是，中央政府在這邊很努力，信誓旦旦有規劃、有政策，如果協力配合的地方政府不執行，不去進行他該做的工作，一樣破一個大洞，所以「前車覆，後車戒」，現在出現了一個這樣的狀況，將來各地的地方政府如果沒有好好的照法律規定去做、落實他該進行的查驗或該進行的工作的時候，而導致這樣破洞，要把這事情講清楚，誰該負責任？"],["林次長靜儀：是，其實……"],["吳委員秉叡：我當然知道，站在中央政府的立場是既然已經發生了，我們趕快來協助地方政府一起來補這個漏洞，因為這個油榨出來之後，有毒質的油是流全國的，不是只有臺中在用。"],["林次長靜儀：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：這間公司進口的大豆就是在臺中港榨油的，地方政府到底有沒有做他該做的工作？中央政府有沒有做他該做的工作？這是我要今天在這個地方想向你請教、想向你討教的。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，當然我們也檢討過，現在我們接下來要處理的就是對於過去訂的檢驗頻次，當然，我們訂的是最低的、應該要的檢驗頻次，可是其實依照不同的地方政府看到他的廠本身製造的頻次等等，事實上，我們當然希望他們可以因為不同的規格或量很大而去增加他的抽驗頻次，或者是增加他在檢驗上面的一些應該要的作為。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你講，你不要寄望地方政府這樣，我待過地方政府，如果中央政府現在規定一年檢4次，他能夠一年做到檢4次就已經很不錯了，你要說如果量大的話，希望他主動能夠增加，沒有什麼叫主動能夠增加的，大家把這個東西寫清楚、講明白……"],["林次長靜儀：對，過去都是……"],["吳委員秉叡：有關他生產的量，你是以量來抽查，還是以時間來抽查？這個東西都要講清楚。"],["林次長靜儀：我們接下來會調整我們要求的檢驗頻次，要依照他的量或者他的規模，然後去做對他的要求。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我是覺得對我們自己要求很高，這是很好，你覺得中央政府這一次哪一些地方做得還可以，哪些地方沒有做到？在法令規定的範圍內，你不要講說以前因為法令的不完備，食安五環現在的確被檢討，大家認為應該再訂得更嚴，我跟你說，就算定這麼嚴、這麼嚴，如果有人不去落實，有人不去執行，最後還是有可能會出現破洞。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員給我們這個機會，我們是6月30日收到通知，就立刻跟地方政府一起下去，這次包含檢調，檢調的動作也非常的快，我們食藥署會配合跟檢調這邊合作來把中間的一些部分釐清，當然現在在處理上面，我們其實本來是說我們先處理有問題的油，但是後來認為事態可能相當嚴重，所以我們針對4月到6月做一個預防性下架，這幾個目前是我們現在正在處理的部分。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，行政機關有行政機關的作為，你全憑檢調，本席就來自法院，我年輕的時候當法官，檢調會不會因為公務人員疏於執行職務而釀成災害去辦，這個在未定之天，我們都不能干涉司法，我們也沒有辦法講，但是司法的時間真的要很長。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：將來可能很久以後被冤枉的人才有辦法獲得一個證明，他是有努力做他的工作的，所以我是覺得大家應該要講清楚。另外，你們對地方政府有沒有督導的權責？因為現在大家都強調，中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，所以他們互相變得很客氣，如果地方政府該做的工作沒有做的時候，你中央政府要拿出什麼態度來跟他應對呢？"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員真的講到重點，因為我們一開始依照食安法，整個權責在查驗等等相關的、還有通報是地方，後來我們跟食藥署這邊說，如果都等地方整理完一輪再上來給我們，我們對民眾的資訊會有delay的問題，所以後來我們就要求這些廠商直接跟食藥署對，也就是他們不論是下架的進度，或者是廠商這邊他們相關目前已經查到的資料全部直接要進到食藥署，食藥署這邊同時同步跟地方政府得到同樣的資訊，甚至要更早拿到資訊。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，希望你這一部分能夠儘快加緊，但問題是你是中央部會，你不可能把所有地方政府該做的事全部都包攬起來。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以對地方政府沒有認真執行他的職務時，該如何處理，要想一套辦法。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員提醒。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個毒質到底是從哪裡來？"],["林次長靜儀：這個其實是在製造過程中，這個「苯駢芘」事實上像大家在烤肉或高溫烹煮的過程中，其實都很容易發生。"],["吳委員秉叡：是，但是大豆油是冷軋的，所以這個毒質有一個說法是因為大量進口巴西黃豆，巴西黃豆在採收的過程中因為比較溼，所以要用很高的溫度來去烘乾，美國的黃豆聽說還不一樣，美國的還沒有這麼溼，如果是原料的來源有問題，原料在輸送的過程中、在烘乾的過程中、儲存的過程中產生的問題，這個可能不是你現在三令五申在那邊要求他每一批都要查驗就好，若原料有問題，每一批做出來都有問題，所以他就必須要造假，才有辦法繼續生存。"],["林次長靜儀：其實，報告委員，事實上您講到……至少我們目前在開的專家會議裡面也認為說，可能是原來的豆子比較溼，所以是烘乾過程造成的，可是事實上如果這個廠商中間真的採取HACCP的標準製程，以及這個製程中有注意到可能因為原料比較溼、溫度比較高會產生這個問題，他在製程中就能夠避免產生苯駢芘超標的問題，所以目前我們對於中聯最重要一個事情，為什麼到現在不讓他復工，就是他中間HACCP的品管，他還沒有提出我們可以接受的說法。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，我現在請教你一個問題，因為現在全世界最主要的大豆產地是巴西，占全世界最大的量是它，因為它那邊的溼度是比較高，所以它產生的豆子在烘乾、乾燥的過程中要用比較高的溫度，而且因為量大，它為了要快速，所以必須用比較高的溫度。如果是原料有問題，你們把問題抓出來之後，針對這些點，除了製造的過程，原料有沒有問題，這個都要比較詳細的比對跟查驗，不然將來還會再出現相同的狀況。"],["林次長靜儀：其實，委員，我們也都知道農產品本來就有不同品質的狀況，但是如果照HACCP的原則，就是標準製程或者我們講優良品管的製程，他在製程中就應該知道會發生這樣的狀況，而在品管上面來避免發生這樣的問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：意思是就算是那個豆子有問題，只要他製造的方式改良，也可以降低這個東西。"],["林次長靜儀：豆子比較濕，中間過程如果處理得好，就不會發生這種問題。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，繼續加油。我跟你講的，我個人認為的觀點是，如果地方政府的執行有什麼問題，中央政府一定要有對策，因為你聽信他說大家分工、夥伴關係，他出的問題是你在背鍋，加油！"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：我們結束吳秉叡委員的質詢。","接下來請第3位賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}