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謝謝主席 有請我們考選部劉部長 還有全序部司部長我們請考選部全序部部長上台備選"},{"start":19.945,"end":34.191,"text":"兩位部長好針對公務人員任用法跟公務人員考試法這一次提出這樣的一個修法那我想有幾個問題要來就教就是說我們現在我們升任減任的部分現在就是說"},{"start":38.753,"end":59.222,"text":"這個修法以後就很擔心了,家庭裡面要先掛大家的鏡子,是說今天沒有一個標準,沒有公平,長光講了算,大家擔心的就是這樣。我剛剛跟我們醫事人員在這邊請教,現在連委任,到建任,到檢任,任官,好像大家拿到的是總統令,都是總統的名。"},{"start":62.123,"end":87.374,"text":"代表說吃心中 做肝嘛可以去政府體系 國際上叫我們去旁邊行可以拿刀背石來做一個服務 都是非常慎重的所以這個整個針對這一次生檢認不用受訓我比較擔心的就是說會不會以後變成長官講的算這個改革每一個人都會去做支持"},{"start":88.154,"end":103.585,"text":"但是這個客觀的一個標準,大家還是要去看,因為過去的檢認的一個勝任裡面,你們現在把它改掉啦,就是說,這個以前就是必須經過勝任官等的一個訓練,你現在就認為說,那訓練的人太多了,成本太高了,你現在就要將這個給毀掉了,這個當然,你這樣的一個取消掉以後,"},{"start":113.595,"end":119.76,"text":"第一個 有一些比較基層的人 或者要升上來一定會認為說取消以後啊 要什麼人來把關莊長你覺得有這個問題嗎官場不用太拚嘛官場就是長官喜歡誰 那個機率就大很多嘛因為我們只是 我們現在這個聖光園學院只是一個資格啦但是它還是要有前提的啦"},{"start":137.733,"end":150.662,"text":"因為前提我們沒有改變他啦是意思就是說你一定要做到譬如說高定幾年考積幾年你才有機會變成那個資格我們都沒有去改變他我們只是改變的就是說現在是有了這個資格再去受訓嘛"},{"start":153.144,"end":169.924,"text":"受訓一定要及格 才會機會上來嘛這一個制度本身老實說是全世界大概是台灣獨創的啦阿所以說齁所以說所以不會影響 那個前提都不會影響阿不然也是循考基法的方式啦升遷的方式現在機關都是這樣一個方式 以前也是這樣啦"},{"start":170.805,"end":188.277,"text":"所以我覺得當然有人也許會有這種想法但是以台灣這個制度上運作的狀況來講我會呼籲就是說這種事情真的平常心去看待大家都按照制度走啦是機關有機關的運作的那個我是覺得你在這個"},{"start":191.119,"end":197.904,"text":"考選業務這部分,你如果很有經驗,人沒有就一輩子有辦法做大工這個制度我是認為有這個機會你去把它改修的時候要特別注意因為公務人員很多以前的想法就是說我有靈力,但是我的長官不一定喜歡我"},{"start":211.328,"end":231.815,"text":"或者說我很有能力咧他的長官未必注意到他咧所以有時候你會覺得這個修改可以啦但是客觀的標準這個是未來我們在升遷制度也許在後續的譬如說1號9等到升遷類似我們內部的升遷升遷的一個方式上要去處理啦"},{"start":232.751,"end":243.177,"text":"所以你說取消這個升官的一個訓練,你說這個方向當然是可以啦,但是我是認為,我剛才說的那個客觀標準真的要補上去,要不然要升的人不是在靠年齡,都靠長官喜不喜歡,這個不管是誰執政都會碰到這樣的一個問題,觀察嘛。"},{"start":254.904,"end":269.914,"text":"尤其是民選出來的共識 地方的地方共識中央也是一樣啊 所以這個標準好好想想另外喔 另外我想到一個會衝擊到有一些比較偏鄉的地方這一次我們就放寬整個轉調"},{"start":272.055,"end":298.281,"text":"這個我覺得很好但是有時候你要想我們現在說要照顧很多條件嘛要照顧未滿7歲的孩子照顧處重大傷病的家人這個很好啊符合條件以後你當然可以調回去自己的居住的附近來做一個服務這是好事啊但是我也要提醒就是說你這樣很多本來受到限制轉調的人一般就是偏鄉或者甚至於他就是在離島那個基站在做服務"},{"start":300.882,"end":308.061,"text":"那你現在呢 條件放寬之後 我很怕到時候有些偏鄉 人又跑到後面去"},{"start":309.434,"end":321.42,"text":"我只要賴清德總統把他派去任良台當後我發現國產署只要農民要申請繼續續約我去的時候大塞車三四千斤一天問我們國務院怎麼都沒在做事我就不開玩笑我不開玩笑 人來了 參加課期 課了 分花 不會來了"},{"start":337.43,"end":350.657,"text":"要不然我們就用加急的方式我的意思是說改革方向都很好但問題就涉及到全國性像這一些他要回去照顧孩子 很好啊 我們政府鼓勵啊要回去照顧大人 很好啊 回去運動服務 很好啊問題是偏鄉種 原來人力上就已經不足搞不好都遭料了 你有沒有去顧慮到這個問題"},{"start":362.523,"end":378.773,"text":"我們這次把它增加室友這個室友大家我想應該都覺得是應該啦但是會不會影響機關的用人因為我們前提還是沒有改變啦這個前提還是任何因為是限制轉調基於限制轉調嘛我們限制轉22條的前提是你頂愛服務"},{"start":381.499,"end":396.555,"text":"你的限制轉調時間的三分之一以上才可以取得這個資格意思是說地方特考好了你六年了一定要先服務兩年嘛兩年後你才能再啟動這個資格不是說一開始就可以啟動這個資格現行的制度就是這樣子是嘛"},{"start":397.256,"end":402.922,"text":"我們只是把三歲放寬 縱使以條件成就以後我們這個規定修法 修法我認為方向對但我認為會對一些比較偏鄉的地方會產生人力的流失會有衝擊有可能啦 這個事情我跟委員報 這個事情其實是因為我們現在講"},{"start":421.115,"end":432.505,"text":"那個理由是一定是照顧重大傷病的配偶 子女 孫子女或子女這是重大傷病應該是還是有具體很應該是應該是還是有具體很應該是應該是還是有具體很應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是應該是"},{"start":436.448,"end":440.589,"text":"你如果產生衝擊的話 你要怎麼因應 我要聽你的因應 是不是給他加級啊或者說 我服務偏鄉 我本來這一些變成歷練的部分 我要升遷 也是一種加分啊我意思是說 你有相關的配套嗎 譬如說我在台東 我在綠島 我在蘭嶼我本來就不是那些人啊 你政府叫我去那裡 服務很好 我也願意嘛"},{"start":458.634,"end":468.917,"text":"像這些人你現在行幾天後人力會流失有沒有可能去演你我覺得蠻有趣的一點可以想像我可以來想想因為這會是要升遷的那個我是覺得很好沒有人要去我去我變成升遷的部門我有家分或是偏鄉的地方離島的地方我可以做一個家籍"},{"start":479.878,"end":485.903,"text":"或者是建立一個你那個要怎麼樣去補人的一個制度這個太這個了因為設法會有衝擊另外最後一個我要快速的請教就是說那個深藏公務人員的考積的部分我看一般人員我看你的統計非常清楚近十年"},{"start":496.673,"end":500.277,"text":"一般的公務人員 家長的76%身心障礙公務人員 差不多差15%嘛像這樣來講的話 這個不是一兩年的事情啊我整十年都是這樣所以要請教博定 你們這問題是出在哪裡是不是我們政府一直就是說 要平等啦平等公平的一個禁用可是呢 你整個考機降下來 我看這近十年的部分"},{"start":523.578,"end":547.49,"text":"身障就變成有什麼受到歧視應該不是歧視啦就是說現場的實務上同仁在打烤雞還是會重視工作內容的輕重繁殖這些議題啦柯林機關會考量這些因素那身障的同仁確實在工作的指派上相對柯林機關有比較不一樣的考慮啦所以我的意思是說"},{"start":548.51,"end":558.301,"text":"用歧視這個字眼比較強烈啦 不過真的實務上沒有 如果看10年的話如果10年的話 平均下來是這樣子的話為什麼請兩位部長上來其實各個 你想法務部 政部長"},{"start":563.707,"end":576.296,"text":"啊您各部會內政部你也要去想到其實這個各部會都會碰到的問題喔各部會的問題喔 身上的這個部分升遷的這部分 確實有的你如果看統計數字這樣差15%喔所以我就會認為說啊 雖然很多各機關的代表沒有一一上來喔但是啊 就是說升官啦 這整個制的問題 說白了"},{"start":588.104,"end":591.988,"text":"有一個比較客觀,我們都知道,大家都知道主觀喜歡他就會有加分,機會會更大這個人之常情,全世界都一樣但是那個客觀的標準,我總會買我們用那個很用彩的,我會把它Q起來放在我的旁邊讓它當當種大植物,這就不對嘛你這個制度裡面要讓可以服人,所以說公平跟客觀那另外剛有提到的是照顧家庭"},{"start":613.228,"end":625.027,"text":"但是也要照顧到偏鄉啊制度的一個改革這個常常會造成啊有一些地方特別的一個衝擊啊這個政府也應該有所因應啦好不好好啦 何小委員的提醒真的謝謝感謝兩位部長 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:53:29.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:53:35.928000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請考選部劉部長，還有銓敘部施部長。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:53:35.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:53:37.910000+08:00","text":"我們請考選部部長、銓敘部部長上臺備詢。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"劉部長孟奇","start":"2026-07-15T09:53:37.910000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:53:41.945000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:53:41.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:53:42.345000+08:00","text":"兩位部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:53:43.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:07.716000+08:00","text":"我這次針對公務人員任用法跟公務人員考試法提出這樣的修法，有幾個問題要來就教，現在我們陞任簡任的部分，這個修法以後就很擔心，官場裡面要升官，大家就怕沒有一個標準，不公平啦！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:08.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:11.798000+08:00","text":"長官講了算，大家擔心的就是這樣。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:11.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:24.223000+08:00","text":"我剛剛跟我們議事人員請教，現在連委任到薦任、到簡任，好像大家拿到的任官都是總統令，都是總統的名字，代表很慎重。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:24.223000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:26.964000+08:00","text":"第一件。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:26.964000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:36.528000+08:00","text":"當官嘛，可以去政府體系，古代叫入京城，可以替老百姓來服務，都是非常慎重。","quality":0.645},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:37.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:54:46.352000+08:00","text":"所以針對這一次升簡任不用受訓，我比較擔心的就是，會不會以後變成長官講了算？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:54:47.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.537000+08:00","text":"這個改革每一個人都會去支持，但是這個客觀的標準，大家還是要去看，過去簡任的陞任，現在你們把它改掉了，以前必須經過升官等的訓練，你們現在認為要訓練的人太多、成本太高，要把它廢掉，這樣子取消掉以後，第一個，有一些比較基層的人或者要升上來的人一定會認為，取消以後，之後什麼人來把關？","quality":0.734},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.697000+08:00","text":"部長，你覺得有這個問題嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.777000+08:00","text":"官場不用互騙。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.777000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:19.777000+08:00","text":"不用互騙。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:18.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:19.978000+08:00","text":"官場就是長官喜歡誰，誰的機率就大很多嘛！","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:20.359000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:55:21.740000+08:00","text":"委員，現在升官等訓練只是一個資格，但還是要有前提的啦！","quality":0.708},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:55:39.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:56:02.032000+08:00","text":"因為前提我們沒有改變它，意思就是你一定要達到，譬如說9等幾年、考績幾年才有機會變成……我們都沒有去改變那個資格，我們只是改變……現在是有了這個資格再去受訓，受訓一定要及格才有機會升等，這個制度本身，老實說，全世界大概是臺灣獨創的啦！","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:56:02.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:56:28.976000+08:00","text":"所以都不會影響到那個前提，後來也是循考績法的陞遷方式，現在機關都是這樣的方式，以前也是這樣，當然也許有人會有這種想法，不過以臺灣這個制度上運作的狀況來講，我會呼籲這種事情，真的平常心去看待，大家都按照制度走，機關有機關的運作制度。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:56:29.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:56:36.181000+08:00","text":"我覺得你在考選業務這部分也是很有經驗，人沒有辦法一輩子都當大官的，你知道嗎？","quality":0.657},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:56:36.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:03.671000+08:00","text":"我認為這個制度有機會修法時要特別注意，你看比較基層公務人員的想法就是我有能力，但長官不一定喜歡我，或者我很有能力，長官未必注意到我，所以我覺得可以修改，但是客觀的標準……","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:04.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:13.655000+08:00","text":"這個是未來我們在陞遷制度，也許在後續的，譬如以後9等到10等，類似內部陞遷的方式上要去處理。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:14.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:23.676000+08:00","text":"所以你說取消升官等訓練，這個方向當然是可以，但是我剛才說的客觀標準，你真的要把它補回來。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:23.676000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:24.676000+08:00","text":"好，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:23.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:24.657000+08:00","text":"不然到最後，要升的人不是在靠能力，都靠長官喜不喜歡。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:24.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:25.157000+08:00","text":"這個不管是誰執政都會碰到這樣的問題，官場嘛！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:36.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:42.147000+08:00","text":"尤其是民選出來的更是，地方更是，中央也是一樣。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:42.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:44.249000+08:00","text":"所以這個標準好好再想一下。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:46.410000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:51.914000+08:00","text":"另外，我想到會衝擊到一些比較偏鄉的地方，這一次我們就放寬整個轉調。對。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:54.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:05.458000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個很好，但是有時候你要去想，現在是有設很多條件，我們現在要照顧未滿七歲的小孩、照顧家裡有重大傷病的家人，這個很好！","quality":0.691},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:05.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:28.016000+08:00","text":"符合條件以後，你當然可以調回去自己居住的附近來做服務，這是好事，但是我也要提醒，本來受到限制轉調的人，他本來就是偏鄉，甚至於他就是在離島的基層服務，現在條件放寬之後，我很怕到時候一些偏鄉的人又跑光光。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:31.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:31.434000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:32.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:39.358000+08:00","text":"自從賴清德總統派我去臺東、認養臺東之後，我發現國產署光是處理那些農民要申請續約，我去的時候大塞車有3、4,000件，我問他為什麼公務人員都沒在做事情？","quality":0.578},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:39.358000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:40.698500+08:00","text":"他說：我就沒人手。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:40.698500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:42.039000+08:00","text":"我問那要怎麼辦？","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:42.039000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:43.400000+08:00","text":"他說：人員參加考試後，到分發，他就不來了。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:43.400000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:59.871000+08:00","text":"要怎麼辦？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:59.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:00.831000+08:00","text":"只能用加給的方式。","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:01.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:10.716000+08:00","text":"我的意思是改革方向都很好，但問題就涉及到全國性，像這一些政府都鼓勵，他要回去照顧小孩很好、回去照顧長輩很好、能回家鄉服務很好啊！","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:10.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:12.657000+08:00","text":"問題是偏鄉原本人力上就已經不足，到最後都跑光光，你有沒有去顧慮到這個問題？","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:24.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:59.997000+08:00","text":"我先跟委員解釋兩件事情，我們這次把它增加事由，我想大家都覺得這個事由是應該的，但是會不會影響機關用人，我們前提還是沒有改變，因為這是限制轉調，基於限制轉調第二十二條的前提，是你一定要服務限制轉調時間的三分之一以上才可以取得這個資格，譬如說地方特考6年內一定要先服務兩年，兩年之後你才能啟動這個資格，不是一開始就可以啟動這個資格，現行的制度就是這樣子，我們只是把三歲放寬，而且他還要找得到缺……","quality":0.772},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:00.197000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:02.539000+08:00","text":"總是條件成就以後，我認為修法的方向是對的，但我認為會對一些比較偏鄉地方的人力流失有所衝擊。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:02.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:03.320000+08:00","text":"有可能啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:03.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:28.380000+08:00","text":"不過這個事情跟委員報告，你問我會有多大衝擊，因為那個理由一定是照顧重大傷病的配偶、子女、孫子女，這是重大傷病，還是有很具體的事由。","quality":0.724},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:28.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:38.928000+08:00","text":"部長，你聽不懂我的意思，我認可你，我覺得這個方向是對的，但是我的意思是說，如果產生衝擊的部分，你要怎麼因應？","quality":0.34},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:38.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:40.929000+08:00","text":"我要聽你的因應方式，是不是給他加給，或者服務偏鄉變成歷練的部分，對我以後的陞遷也是一種加分，我的意思是你有相關的配套嗎？","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:40.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:42.529000+08:00","text":"比如我在臺東、我在綠島、我在蘭嶼，我本來就不是那裡的人，政府叫我去那裡服務，我也願意。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:00.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:04.935000+08:00","text":"像這些人在新規定之後，人力會流失，有沒有可能去研擬……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:05.756000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:08.296000+08:00","text":"我覺得蠻有趣的一點，可以想像，我可以來想想，因為這會涉及到陞遷的分數表。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:08.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:25.762000+08:00","text":"我是覺得很好，沒有人要去，我去會變成陞遷的加分部分，或是偏鄉的地方、離島的地方我可以有一個加給，或者你去建立一個如何去補人的制度，想一下，因為修法會有衝擊。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:25.762000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:26.762000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:25.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:39.414000+08:00","text":"另外最後一個，我要快速的請教，身障公務人員的考績部分，我看你們的統計非常清楚，近十年一般公務人員甲等76%；身心障礙公務人員差不多差了15%。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:39.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:40.475000+08:00","text":"像這樣來講的話，這個不是一、兩年的事情，我看幾十年來都是這樣，所以要請教部長，這個問題是出在哪裡？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:40.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:09.480000+08:00","text":"是不是政府一直說要平等、公平的進用，可是整個考績下來，我看這近十年的部分，身障就變成有點受到歧視，你也有感覺到這個問題嗎？","quality":0.745},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:09.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:34.435000+08:00","text":"確實，但應該不是歧視，現場實務上同仁在打考績，還是會重視工作內容的輕重繁雜，可能機關會考量這些因素，身障同仁確實在工作指派上，機關可能相對會有比較不一樣的考慮，所以我的意思是說，用「歧視」這個字眼比較強烈，不過真的實務上是有這個問題。","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:34.535000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:39.841000+08:00","text":"沒有，如果十年平均下來是這樣子的話，為什麼請兩位部長上來？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:40.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:55.494000+08:00","text":"像法務部鄭部長，你們各部會、內政部也要去想想，其實各部會都會碰到這個問題，是各部會的問題，確實你看統計數字身障考績甲等的部分差15%。確實。","quality":0.689},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:55.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:10.204000+08:00","text":"所以我就會認為雖然各機關的代表沒有一一上來，但升官是整個制度的問題，要公平、客觀啦！","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:10.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:13.387000+08:00","text":"大家也都知道主官喜歡他，他加分的機會就更大，這個人之常情，全世界都一樣，但是那個客觀標準，我總不能提拔一個庸才安排在我旁邊，讓他擔當重大職務，這就不對嘛，你的制度要可以服人，所以要公平跟客觀。","quality":0.756},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:13.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:44.623000+08:00","text":"另外剛剛有提到照顧家庭，但是也要照顧到偏鄉，制度改革常常會對有一些地方造成特別的衝擊，政府也應該有所因應，好不好？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:45.184000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:46.667000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員提醒。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:46.667000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:47.667000+08:00","text":"研議一下。","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:46.807000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:46.927000+08:00","text":"真的謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"莊委員瑞雄","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:46.927000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:47.027000+08:00","text":"感謝兩位部長，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席（莊委員瑞雄）","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:47.527000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:50.669857+08:00","text":"接下來請沈發惠委員詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時53分）謝謝主席，有請考選部劉部長，還有銓敘部施部長。"],["主席：我們請考選部部長、銓敘部部長上臺備詢。"],["劉部長孟奇：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：兩位部長好。我這次針對公務人員任用法跟公務人員考試法提出這樣的修法，有幾個問題要來就教，現在我們陞任簡任的部分，這個修法以後就很擔心，官場裡面要升官，大家就怕沒有一個標準，不公平啦！長官講了算，大家擔心的就是這樣。我剛剛跟我們議事人員請教，現在連委任到薦任、到簡任，好像大家拿到的任官都是總統令，都是總統的名字，代表很慎重。"],["施部長能傑：第一件。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當官嘛，可以去政府體系，古代叫入京城，可以替老百姓來服務，都是非常慎重。所以針對這一次升簡任不用受訓，我比較擔心的就是，會不會以後變成長官講了算？這個改革每一個人都會去支持，但是這個客觀的標準，大家還是要去看，過去簡任的陞任，現在你們把它改掉了，以前必須經過升官等的訓練，你們現在認為要訓練的人太多、成本太高，要把它廢掉，這樣子取消掉以後，第一個，有一些比較基層的人或者要升上來的人一定會認為，取消以後，之後什麼人來把關？部長，你覺得有這個問題嗎？官場不用互騙。"],["施部長能傑：不用互騙。"],["莊委員瑞雄：官場就是長官喜歡誰，誰的機率就大很多嘛！"],["施部長能傑：委員，現在升官等訓練只是一個資格，但還是要有前提的啦！因為前提我們沒有改變它，意思就是你一定要達到，譬如說9等幾年、考績幾年才有機會變成……我們都沒有去改變那個資格，我們只是改變……現在是有了這個資格再去受訓，受訓一定要及格才有機會升等，這個制度本身，老實說，全世界大概是臺灣獨創的啦！所以都不會影響到那個前提，後來也是循考績法的陞遷方式，現在機關都是這樣的方式，以前也是這樣，當然也許有人會有這種想法，不過以臺灣這個制度上運作的狀況來講，我會呼籲這種事情，真的平常心去看待，大家都按照制度走，機關有機關的運作制度。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得你在考選業務這部分也是很有經驗，人沒有辦法一輩子都當大官的，你知道嗎？我認為這個制度有機會修法時要特別注意，你看比較基層公務人員的想法就是我有能力，但長官不一定喜歡我，或者我很有能力，長官未必注意到我，所以我覺得可以修改，但是客觀的標準……"],["施部長能傑：這個是未來我們在陞遷制度，也許在後續的，譬如以後9等到10等，類似內部陞遷的方式上要去處理。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你說取消升官等訓練，這個方向當然是可以，但是我剛才說的客觀標準，你真的要把它補回來。"],["施部長能傑：好，我知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不然到最後，要升的人不是在靠能力，都靠長官喜不喜歡。這個不管是誰執政都會碰到這樣的問題，官場嘛！尤其是民選出來的更是，地方更是，中央也是一樣。所以這個標準好好再想一下。","另外，我想到會衝擊到一些比較偏鄉的地方，這一次我們就放寬整個轉調。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我覺得這個很好，但是有時候你要去想，現在是有設很多條件，我們現在要照顧未滿七歲的小孩、照顧家裡有重大傷病的家人，這個很好！符合條件以後，你當然可以調回去自己居住的附近來做服務，這是好事，但是我也要提醒，本來受到限制轉調的人，他本來就是偏鄉，甚至於他就是在離島的基層服務，現在條件放寬之後，我很怕到時候一些偏鄉的人又跑光光。"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：自從賴清德總統派我去臺東、認養臺東之後，我發現國產署光是處理那些農民要申請續約，我去的時候大塞車有3、4,000件，我問他為什麼公務人員都沒在做事情？他說：我就沒人手。我問那要怎麼辦？他說：人員參加考試後，到分發，他就不來了。要怎麼辦？只能用加給的方式。我的意思是改革方向都很好，但問題就涉及到全國性，像這一些政府都鼓勵，他要回去照顧小孩很好、回去照顧長輩很好、能回家鄉服務很好啊！問題是偏鄉原本人力上就已經不足，到最後都跑光光，你有沒有去顧慮到這個問題？"],["施部長能傑：我先跟委員解釋兩件事情，我們這次把它增加事由，我想大家都覺得這個事由是應該的，但是會不會影響機關用人，我們前提還是沒有改變，因為這是限制轉調，基於限制轉調第二十二條的前提，是你一定要服務限制轉調時間的三分之一以上才可以取得這個資格，譬如說地方特考6年內一定要先服務兩年，兩年之後你才能啟動這個資格，不是一開始就可以啟動這個資格，現行的制度就是這樣子，我們只是把三歲放寬，而且他還要找得到缺……"],["莊委員瑞雄：總是條件成就以後，我認為修法的方向是對的，但我認為會對一些比較偏鄉地方的人力流失有所衝擊。"],["施部長能傑：有可能啦！不過這個事情跟委員報告，你問我會有多大衝擊，因為那個理由一定是照顧重大傷病的配偶、子女、孫子女，這是重大傷病，還是有很具體的事由。"],["莊委員瑞雄：部長，你聽不懂我的意思，我認可你，我覺得這個方向是對的，但是我的意思是說，如果產生衝擊的部分，你要怎麼因應？我要聽你的因應方式，是不是給他加給，或者服務偏鄉變成歷練的部分，對我以後的陞遷也是一種加分，我的意思是你有相關的配套嗎？比如我在臺東、我在綠島、我在蘭嶼，我本來就不是那裡的人，政府叫我去那裡服務，我也願意。像這些人在新規定之後，人力會流失，有沒有可能去研擬……"],["施部長能傑：我覺得蠻有趣的一點，可以想像，我可以來想想，因為這會涉及到陞遷的分數表。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是覺得很好，沒有人要去，我去會變成陞遷的加分部分，或是偏鄉的地方、離島的地方我可以有一個加給，或者你去建立一個如何去補人的制度，想一下，因為修法會有衝擊。"],["施部長能傑：我知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外最後一個，我要快速的請教，身障公務人員的考績部分，我看你們的統計非常清楚，近十年一般公務人員甲等76%；身心障礙公務人員差不多差了15%。像這樣來講的話，這個不是一、兩年的事情，我看幾十年來都是這樣，所以要請教部長，這個問題是出在哪裡？是不是政府一直說要平等、公平的進用，可是整個考績下來，我看這近十年的部分，身障就變成有點受到歧視，你也有感覺到這個問題嗎？"],["施部長能傑：確實，但應該不是歧視，現場實務上同仁在打考績，還是會重視工作內容的輕重繁雜，可能機關會考量這些因素，身障同仁確實在工作指派上，機關可能相對會有比較不一樣的考慮，所以我的意思是說，用「歧視」這個字眼比較強烈，不過真的實務上是有這個問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有，如果十年平均下來是這樣子的話，為什麼請兩位部長上來？像法務部鄭部長，你們各部會、內政部也要去想想，其實各部會都會碰到這個問題，是各部會的問題，確實你看統計數字身障考績甲等的部分差15%。"],["施部長能傑：確實。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就會認為雖然各機關的代表沒有一一上來，但升官是整個制度的問題，要公平、客觀啦！大家也都知道主官喜歡他，他加分的機會就更大，這個人之常情，全世界都一樣，但是那個客觀標準，我總不能提拔一個庸才安排在我旁邊，讓他擔當重大職務，這就不對嘛，你的制度要可以服人，所以要公平跟客觀。另外剛剛有提到照顧家庭，但是也要照顧到偏鄉，制度改革常常會對有一些地方造成特別的衝擊，政府也應該有所因應，好不好？"],["施部長能傑：好，謝謝委員提醒。"],["莊委員瑞雄：研議一下。"],["施部長能傑：真的謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：感謝兩位部長，謝謝。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：接下來請沈發惠委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-25","speakers":["莊瑞雄","陳昭姿","許宇甄","張雅琳","沈發惠","范雲","林倩綺","翁曉玲","許忠信","洪孟楷","林沛祥","李坤城","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考試法第四條、第五條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員考試法第五條、第六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、（三）委員張宏陸等19人擬具「公務人員考試法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查考\n試院函請審議「公務人員任用法部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查（一）行政院函請審議\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（二）委員羅智強等23人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（四）委員許宇甄等25人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（五）委員林淑芬等19人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（六）委員羅美玲等16人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（七）委員張雅琳等16人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（八）委員陳培瑜等18人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員賴士葆等23人擬\n具「毒品危害防制條例第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「毒\n品危害防制條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具「毒品危害防\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第二條條文\n修正草案」案；八、審查委員張宏陸等22人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」\n案；九、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審\n查委員劉建國等17人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員陳\n冠廷等16人擬具「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員徐欣瑩等25人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「毒品危害防制\n條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員林月琴等20人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員傅崐萁等18人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第四條及第\n九條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修\n正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}