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那一定要增加成本啦"},{"start":140.493,"end":161.384,"text":"那二來呢你要增加行政成本的部分就是說你要監督的部分也非常的重要且關鍵那原因在哪裡本席繼續說明給你聽待會請沈記長上來一下沈記長你去看喔為什麼從金融業的部分來做切入因為其實在2023年的時候啊這一個泰山變天啊"},{"start":163.501,"end":185.059,"text":"2023年泰山變天2024年換福茂變天有經營權一組2025年這兩家公司分別改派中聯的董總結果2026就出事了連在哪裡因為這些市場派入主基本上專業程度都不夠但是資本實力比較強"},{"start":186.738,"end":211.291,"text":"那以至於呢大家在討論的說這一次中聯有指呢其實是有掩蓋的事實報導上都是這樣子處理誰負責說這個情資這個資料這個數據要不要通報決定選在誰當然是最高的這個負責人啊最高的負責人要聽誰的要聽這些大股東的你去看這個結構下一張"},{"start":214.682,"end":224.029,"text":"這個結構當中中聯郵址當中的董事長是由福茂郵址來指派總經理是由泰山來指派這兩個都是市場派的"},{"start":226.637,"end":251.07,"text":"問題點就出在這邊啊那我想請次長在旁邊休息一下我請沈進長沈進長你有沒有看到這些問題這問題當中呢我們在制度面上雖然啊在公司法當中的第八條第三項規定實質控制人事負責行事行政責任行政法治責任的人是要實質負責任甚至是最終受益人以至於後面的大股東以及引資董事都應該被追溯"},{"start":252.284,"end":276.613,"text":"這件事情你認為是不是應該如此應該這樣是應該這樣那你是不是應該要求啊這相關的部門包括管理上市櫃的金管會或者負責公司管理的這個經濟部有一些具體作為當市場派入侵到一些關鍵產業的時候可能會造成相關的類似的後遺症的時候怎麼處理行長"},{"start":280.071,"end":287.434,"text":"這個委員講得很好我們也在了解因為不可能靠越久的自主管理因為他人性不太合人性不是這樣所以自主管理怎麼樣"},{"start":298.337,"end":312.645,"text":"所以剛剛委員講的這個經濟部 經管會這個要慢慢也要借進來把這些尤其影響這個人民健康安全的這個因為這個涉及社會很重大"},{"start":313.826,"end":330.72,"text":"所以我同意委員 我們會整個盤意思 趙委員的意思 把它盤出來尤其 盡量吧 因為現在的機制裡面的自主管理是有所以 第三個證所有的責任歸到自主管理 但是他又不願意內機內控問題是他又沒有辦法專業管理的情況底下 怎麼辦啊"},{"start":335.925,"end":352.025,"text":"所以第三方認證還有政府的加強抽查也很重要但是自主管理是一個也是很重要的看怎麼去改進這裡頭有幾個層面自主管理 第三方認證還有包括政府抽查"},{"start":354.048,"end":370.106,"text":"政府的一個搜查那以及呢這個檢舉制度照說我們是環環相扣各種自律他律的制度都應該有結果呢就粗暴在所謂的自主管理粗暴到專業能力不足粗暴在整個經營權的一組對不對"},{"start":372.328,"end":399.559,"text":"所以說事後的追討 亡羊補牢在這個部份經濟部跟金管會也討不了責任啦 對不對那請那個沈議長你好好的去思考這個問題我接下來還有一個問題沈議長你在旁邊稍微休息我換一下這個那個次長 次長好 謝謝次長剛剛我們有提到所謂的這個第三方的問題啦第三方的問題當中呢其實在昨天的行政院長當中也提到說呢第三方的通報義務不應該只有通報業者"},{"start":401.058,"end":419.836,"text":"是不是也就是說他他應該也要通知行政部門是對不對是也就是說他如何同時同步勾擊通報這是非常重要的是但是以我們第三方的公證機構SGS來說啊相關的這個權力的一個委外啊"},{"start":421.004,"end":443.67,"text":"有沒有人力不足 專業不足的問題專業部分我相信應該OK啦人力的部分也會出現這個問題啊所以說你們是不是應該講一下因為類似我們這個事件當中的第三方的這個權力的這個委託恐怕不是只有衛福部這個單位而已恐怕還有消防 環保 車輛等等啊這些都是問題啊"},{"start":445.19,"end":454.935,"text":"等到這些問題你們如果該這個事件當中發現了什麼樣的問題第三方發現了什麼問題除了通報程序的問題之外第三方本身的什麼問題也麻煩你們整理出來"},{"start":455.697,"end":475.356,"text":"我們會對第三方相關的責任做對 整理出來之後 沈機長麻煩你再來一下沈機長 剛剛你就提到第三方啦 對不對對第三方的部分我們把這麼多的公權力委託給第三方對第三方在這次通報的情況底下顯然制度也有所缺漏的地方嘛對"},{"start":475.816,"end":495.448,"text":"那你站在審計部的高位當中是不是也應該透過這個時候去審視相關部門當中對於第三方的委託過度的依賴那以至於呢當他出包的時候責任誰來扛是憲政部門來扛啊也是造成國人的恐慌啊你有沒有看到這個問題有"},{"start":499.081,"end":509.512,"text":"請說我們會去前面了解現在的第三方相關單位給第三方的那個驗證的這個部分我們會前面盤一次看看是哪些單位你要盤到什麼時候"},{"start":517.661,"end":532.031,"text":"就我剛剛有答應前面一個委員三個月內這個也納入三個月的範圍啦對我怕三個月以後大家就會忘記這件事情啦但是我會勞勞其中我盡量把這個事情啊幫忙勾引那個沈議長你以前也寫過一個喔審計部曾經有提過喔這一頭有幾個關卡"},{"start":535.393,"end":563.156,"text":"一個呢是源頭的管理的邊際財產人員不足的問題啊這個也類似啊以前你也寫過我不曉得你寫過之後行政部門有沒有改啦這是第一個問題第二個呢以前也曾經寫過食安人路第一線也就是市場後的部分在衛福部的時候編制目前的人力只有86人啊地方政府的人力只有463人啊那以地方政府來說第一線的市場後人力更加的重要情況底下"},{"start":564.217,"end":590.216,"text":"編制人員還是不足啦我們提醒了 提醒了查案 那個編制查案啊行政院給了 給了33人那這個地方的部分啊 我們會再查一次再查一次 再查一下 看看啊 主張人力啊 如何以現在地方政府的財政能力 足以落實這些人力編制啊"},{"start":592.477,"end":599.583,"text":"應該整個財務修正以後這個食安準例我們會幫忙食藥署還有一個機制要處理審計部自己也曾經提到檢舉案件很少獎金都發不出去問題你都發現啊但是問題還是問題啊為什麼獎金的機制也要建立很好的獎金機制你三個月又寫一次問題"},{"start":617.797,"end":624.822,"text":"結果問題還是變成問題還是沒有解決問題我們會追蹤我們會強力追蹤我剛剛講的都是你講過的問題對我們會強力追蹤到現在是問題以後會不會是問題如果他不改善我們會公佈這些單位不改善的情形好我等著你的魄力的表現"},{"start":638.912,"end":660.379,"text":"不要再寫三個月一份報告又同樣的問題啊好不好我們知道因為我們發現這一次產生我們通知了問題都是你寫過的對邊境人類不足講進報告我們寫過我們知道這些都是他旅的機構啊對不對所以我們現在不改善我們公布對吧問題寫嚴重一點公布一點看這問題能不能解決謝謝市長謝謝市長謝謝郭國文委員接下來請林黛樺委員"},{"start":673.052,"end":674.619,"text":"好有請衛福部"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:57+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:58+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請林次長，還有陳審計長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:58+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:57:59+08:00","text":"請林政次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:59+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:00+08:00","text":"委員早。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:00+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:01+08:00","text":"次長好，辛苦了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:57:57.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:20.554000+08:00","text":"我今天提一個概念，因為最近大家一直在談食安就是國安，如果食安是國安的話，就代表有些食品業者已經是大到不能出包的一種程度，類似有些大到不能倒的金融業者，如果是這樣的話，從亡羊補牢的觀點來看待這個事件，我們在制度面當中有多少可以調整的地方？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:20.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:33.981000+08:00","text":"第一個，我想要請問一下衛福部，到現在為止，上游的中聯半年一次的通報，以及第二層的這三家公司三個月一次的通報，這個間隔有沒有縮短的可能性？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:35.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:36.507000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們也認為應該要縮短。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:36.507000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:38.908000+08:00","text":"縮短到什麼階段？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:38.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:48.793000+08:00","text":"因為我們過去的要求就是至少半年驗一次，可是像中聯，它4月到6月總共就做了29批，所以在這個狀況之下，如果地方政府也是只有半年驗一次的話，這個頻次真的太長，所以我們接下來會調整，它的檢驗頻次要縮短，依照不同的油廠規格……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:58:48.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:58:49.574000+08:00","text":"六個月變三個月，或者是原來的三個月變一個半月，還是怎麼樣？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:03.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:05.602000+08:00","text":"或者幾個批次之後我們就要驗一次。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:06.083000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:12.167000+08:00","text":"我想這個應該要強化，因為國人對食安非常的重視。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:12.167000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:15.949000+08:00","text":"另外，內稽內控的部分有沒有強化的可能？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:16.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:26.216000+08:00","text":"接下來食安法的標準我們現在正在規劃，因為他們的東西送檢理論上要送第三方，它除了在自己的實驗室之外還要送第三方，所以實驗室跟第三方都要通報。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:26.216000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:37.399000+08:00","text":"對，第三方的部分待會本席會跟你就教，就是它本身的檢驗品項、檢驗密度、專業人員的配置、關鍵部門的步驟，行政部門有沒有辦法隨時掌握？","quality":0.982},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:39.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T09:59:52.284000+08:00","text":"例如SGS或者是實驗室的標準，這個部分是定期辦理，本來實驗室都有認證，而且很多是拿國際認證的，但是麻煩的是這個實驗室就算品質很好，驗出來有問題，如果他們沒有通報，我們就沒有辦法得到資訊。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T09:59:52.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:10.871000+08:00","text":"我的意思是，站在衛福部主管機關來說，你要隨時去watch一些關鍵的製程或是情資或是數字，它一定要立即通報，以避免系統性風險的產生，我覺得應該去過濾這一個。","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:11.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:11.351000+08:00","text":"是，我們再……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:11.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:16.213000+08:00","text":"一來，要去強化這個業者本身的內稽內控，老實講那一定要增加成本。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:17.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:25.318000+08:00","text":"二來，你會增加行政成本的部分，也就是你要監督的部分，也非常地重要且關鍵，原因在哪裡？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:25.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:27.639000+08:00","text":"本席繼續說明給你聽，待會請審計長上來一下。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:29.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:32.421000+08:00","text":"你去看，為什麼我從金融業的部分來切入？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:33.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:00:55.914000+08:00","text":"因為其實在2023年的時候泰山變天，2024年換福懋變天，也就是經營權易主，2025年這兩家公司分別改派中聯的董總，結果2026年就出事了，原因在哪裡？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:00:55.914000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:19.566000+08:00","text":"因為這些市場派入主，基本上專業程度都不夠，但是資本實力比較強，以至於大家在討論這一次中聯油脂其實是有掩蓋的事實，報導上都是這樣寫，誰負責決定這個情資、這個資料、這個數據要不要通報？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:19.566000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:21.367000+08:00","text":"決定權在誰？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:21.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:23.308000+08:00","text":"當然是最高的負責人啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:24.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:25.249000+08:00","text":"最高的負責人要聽誰的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:26.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:44.738000+08:00","text":"要聽這些大股東的，你去看這個結構，在這個結構當中，中聯油脂的董事長是由福懋油脂指派，總經理是由泰山指派，這兩個都是市場派的，問題點就出在這邊。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:46.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:48.400000+08:00","text":"請次長在旁邊休息一下，我請審計長。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:48.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:01:52.602000+08:00","text":"審計長，你有沒有看到這些問題？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:01:53.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:11.145000+08:00","text":"制度面上，雖然公司法第八條第三項規定，實質控制人事，負刑事、行政罰之責任的人是實質負責人，甚至是最終受益人，所以後面的大股東以及影子董事，都應該被追溯，這件事情你認為是不是應該如此？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:12.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:12.585000+08:00","text":"應該這樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:12.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:27.490000+08:00","text":"是該這樣，那你是不是應該要求這些相關的部門，包括管理上市櫃的金管會，或者負責公司管理的經濟部有一些具體作為？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:27.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:33.613000+08:00","text":"當市場派入侵到一些關鍵產業的時候，如果造成相關的、類似的後遺症時該怎麼處理，審計長？","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:37.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:43.833000+08:00","text":"委員講得很好，我們也在了解，因為不可能只由業者自主管理，因為和人性不太合。是啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:43.833000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:44.833000+08:00","text":"你講話太老實了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:43.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:44.434000+08:00","text":"人性不是這樣，所以自主管理怎麼樣……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:44.434000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:02:55.337000+08:00","text":"就是人性導致的人禍。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:02:55.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:24.237000+08:00","text":"所以剛剛委員講的，經濟部、金管會慢慢也要借鏡，尤其是影響人民健康安全的這些，因為這個涉及重大的社會利益，所以我同意委員要求，我們會整個盤一次，照委員的意思把它盤出來，尤其現在的機制裡面有自主管理的部分，所以第三方驗證……","quality":0.798},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:24.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:27.700000+08:00","text":"把所有的責任歸到自主管理，但是它又不願意內稽內控，又沒有辦法專業管理，在這個情況底下該怎麼辦？","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:32.925000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:44.920000+08:00","text":"所以第三方驗證還有政府加強抽查也很重要，但是自主管理也是很重要的，這個看怎麼去改進。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:44.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:03:58.056000+08:00","text":"好，這裡頭有幾個層面，自主管理、第三方認證，還有包括政府抽查以及檢舉制度，照理說是環環相扣的。對。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:03:58.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:07.106000+08:00","text":"各種自律、他律的制度都應該有，結果就出包在所謂的自主管理，出包到專業能力不足，出包到整個經營權易主，對不對？對。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:09.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:15.490000+08:00","text":"所以事後的追查、亡羊補牢很重要，在這個部分，經濟部跟金管會也逃不了責任，對不對？對。","quality":0.806},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:16.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:23.294000+08:00","text":"請審計長好好地去思考這個問題，我接下來還有一個問題，審計長你在旁邊稍微休息，我換次長。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:23.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:23.474000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:23.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:38.198000+08:00","text":"次長，剛剛我們有提到第三方的問題，第三方的問題當中其實昨天行政院長也提到，第三方的通報義務不應該只有通報業者，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:38.939000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:43.583000+08:00","text":"也就是說，它應該也要通知行政部門，對不對？是。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:44.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:00.625000+08:00","text":"也就是說，它如何同步勾稽通報，這是非常重要的，但是以我們第三方的公正機構SGS來說，相關權力的委外有沒有人力不足、專業不足的問題？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:00.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:01.725000+08:00","text":"專業的部分，我相信應該OK啦！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:02.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:04.166000+08:00","text":"人力的部分也會出現這個問題啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:05.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:07.406000+08:00","text":"所以你們是不是應該講一下？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:08.027000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:20.650000+08:00","text":"因為類似這一個事件對第三方的權力委託，不是只有衛福部這個單位而已，恐怕還有消防、環保、車輛等等，這些都是問題。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:22.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:31.935000+08:00","text":"等到這些問題你們……在這個事件當中，第三方發現了什麼問題，除了通報程序之外，第三方本身的問題，也麻煩你們整理出來……","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:32.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:34.519000+08:00","text":"我們會對於第三方相關的責任做處理。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:34.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:37.742000+08:00","text":"對，整理出來之後……審計長，麻煩你再來一下。","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:39.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:41.766000+08:00","text":"審計長，剛剛已經提到第三方啊，對不對？對。","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:41.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:52.336000+08:00","text":"關於第三方的部分，我們把這麼多的公權力委託給第三方，第三方在這次通報的情況底下，顯然制度也有缺漏的地方嘛。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:53.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:04.503000+08:00","text":"你站在審計部的高位，是不是也應該透過這個時候去審視相關部門當中，對於第三方委託的過度依賴？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:04.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:07.645000+08:00","text":"以致於當他「出包」的時候，責任誰來扛？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:08.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:09.106000+08:00","text":"是行政部門來扛啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:09.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:16.081000+08:00","text":"也是造成國人的恐慌啊，你有沒有看到這個問題？誰答？有。請說。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:16.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:17.081000+08:00","text":"怎麼辦？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:17.081000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:18.081000+08:00","text":"怎麼處理？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:16.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:26.152000+08:00","text":"我們會去全面了解現在相關單位給第三方驗證的部分，我們會全面盤一次，看看是哪些單位，以及它做了些什麼事情。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:26.152000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:27.152000+08:00","text":"你要盤多久？","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:26.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:26.492000+08:00","text":"你要盤到什麼時候？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:34.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:38.063000+08:00","text":"我剛剛有答應前面一個委員，在三個月內。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:38.063000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:39.645000+08:00","text":"這個也納入三個月的範圍啦！對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:39.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:43.667000+08:00","text":"我怕三個月以後，大家就會忘記這件事情，但是我會牢牢記住。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:43.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:45.428000+08:00","text":"我儘量就這個事情幫忙國人……","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:47.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:48.631000+08:00","text":"審計長，你以前也寫過一個……審計部也曾經有提過。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:48.811000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:57.077000+08:00","text":"這裡頭有幾個關卡，一個是源頭管理的邊境查驗人員不足問題，這個也類似啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:57.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:01.160000+08:00","text":"以前你也寫過，我不曉得你寫過之後，行政部門有沒有改？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:02.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:03.603000+08:00","text":"這是第一個問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:03.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:22.618000+08:00","text":"第二個，以前也曾經寫過，食安人力第一線，也就是後市場的部分，目前在衛福部編制的人力只有86人，地方政府的人力只有463人，那以地方政府來說，在第一線的後市場人力更加重要的情況底下，編制人員還是不足啦！","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:22.618000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:24.139000+08:00","text":"你說是事實嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:24.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:32.485000+08:00","text":"我們提醒了邊境查驗的部分，行政院給了33人。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:33.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:37.088000+08:00","text":"地方的部分，我們會再查一次……","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:37.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:39.310000+08:00","text":"再查一次？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:39.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:43.053000+08:00","text":"這一次再查一下，看看食安人力如何。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:43.513000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:47.196000+08:00","text":"以現在地方政府的財政能力，足以落實這些人力編制啊？","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:47.196000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:49.477000+08:00","text":"對不對？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:49.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:50.018000+08:00","text":"應該整個財劃法修正以後……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:50.018000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:51.018000+08:00","text":"修正以後啊！","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:50.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:51.439000+08:00","text":"食安人力的部分，我們會幫忙食藥署或幫忙衛福部來查……","quality":0.435},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:51.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.181000+08:00","text":"還有一個機制要處理，審計部自己也曾經提到，檢舉案件很少，獎金都發不出去，你都有發現問題啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.181000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:55.181000+08:00","text":"對，我知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.401000+08:00","text":"但是問題還是問題啊！那個……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.962000+08:00","text":"為什麼會形成這個問題？","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:54.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:56.002000+08:00","text":"獎金的機制……也要建立很好的獎金機制。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:56.022000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.099000+08:00","text":"對啊，你三個月又寫一次問題，結果問題還是變成問題，還是沒有解決問題。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.119000+08:00","text":"我們會追蹤……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.239000+08:00","text":"你會追蹤？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.719000+08:00","text":"我們會強力追蹤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:17.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.120000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講的都是你講過的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.540000+08:00","text":"對，我們會強力追蹤。","quality":1},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.920000+08:00","text":"到現在還是問題……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.920000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:19.920000+08:00","text":"我們會公布……","quality":0},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:18.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:19.460000+08:00","text":"以後會不會是問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:19.460000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:20.962000+08:00","text":"如果他不改善，我們會公布這些單位不改善的情形。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:21.002000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:21.822000+08:00","text":"好，我等著你的魄力表現啦！","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:35.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:38.513000+08:00","text":"不要再三個月寫一份報告，而又是同樣的問題啦！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:38.913000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:39.113000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:39.293000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:43.094000+08:00","text":"我們知道，因為我們發現這一次產生……我們通知了，他說要改善……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:43.314000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:45.755000+08:00","text":"這些都是你寫過的問題！對。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:45.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:46.335000+08:00","text":"邊境人力不足、獎金發不出去！","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:47.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:48.596000+08:00","text":"這很多都是我們寫過的，我們知道，但是……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:48.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:50.917000+08:00","text":"這些都是他們的機構啊，對不對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:50.917000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:51.917000+08:00","text":"這裡面就是他們的機構啊，不是嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:50.917000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:53.577000+08:00","text":"所以現在不改善的，我們就公布。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:54.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.438000+08:00","text":"把問題寫得嚴重一點來公布，看這種問題能不能解決？好。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"郭委員國文","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.638000+08:00","text":"謝謝審計長、謝謝次長。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.638000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.938000+08:00","text":"謝謝郭國文委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:56.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:57.379000+08:00","text":"接下來請林岱樺委員。","quality":0.889}]},"gazette":{"lineno":308,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時57分）謝謝主席，有請林次長，還有陳審計長。"],["主席：請林政次。"],["林次長靜儀：委員早。"],["郭委員國文：次長好，辛苦了！我今天提一個概念，因為最近大家一直在談食安就是國安，如果食安是國安的話，就代表有些食品業者已經是大到不能出包的一種程度，類似有些大到不能倒的金融業者，如果是這樣的話，從亡羊補牢的觀點來看待這個事件，我們在制度面當中有多少可以調整的地方？第一個，我想要請問一下衛福部，到現在為止，上游的中聯半年一次的通報，以及第二層的這三家公司三個月一次的通報，這個間隔有沒有縮短的可能性？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，我們也認為應該要縮短。"],["郭委員國文：縮短到什麼階段？"],["林次長靜儀：因為我們過去的要求就是至少半年驗一次，可是像中聯，它4月到6月總共就做了29批，所以在這個狀況之下，如果地方政府也是只有半年驗一次的話，這個頻次真的太長，所以我們接下來會調整，它的檢驗頻次要縮短，依照不同的油廠規格……"],["郭委員國文：六個月變三個月，或者是原來的三個月變一個半月，還是怎麼樣？"],["林次長靜儀：或者幾個批次之後我們就要驗一次。"],["郭委員國文：我想這個應該要強化，因為國人對食安非常的重視。另外，內稽內控的部分有沒有強化的可能？"],["林次長靜儀：接下來食安法的標準我們現在正在規劃，因為他們的東西送檢理論上要送第三方，它除了在自己的實驗室之外還要送第三方，所以實驗室跟第三方都要通報。"],["郭委員國文：對，第三方的部分待會本席會跟你就教，就是它本身的檢驗品項、檢驗密度、專業人員的配置、關鍵部門的步驟，行政部門有沒有辦法隨時掌握？"],["林次長靜儀：例如SGS或者是實驗室的標準，這個部分是定期辦理，本來實驗室都有認證，而且很多是拿國際認證的，但是麻煩的是這個實驗室就算品質很好，驗出來有問題，如果他們沒有通報，我們就沒有辦法得到資訊。"],["郭委員國文：我的意思是，站在衛福部主管機關來說，你要隨時去watch一些關鍵的製程或是情資或是數字，它一定要立即通報，以避免系統性風險的產生，我覺得應該去過濾這一個。"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們再……"],["郭委員國文：一來，要去強化這個業者本身的內稽內控，老實講那一定要增加成本。二來，你會增加行政成本的部分，也就是你要監督的部分，也非常地重要且關鍵，原因在哪裡？本席繼續說明給你聽，待會請審計長上來一下。你去看，為什麼我從金融業的部分來切入？因為其實在2023年的時候泰山變天，2024年換福懋變天，也就是經營權易主，2025年這兩家公司分別改派中聯的董總，結果2026年就出事了，原因在哪裡？因為這些市場派入主，基本上專業程度都不夠，但是資本實力比較強，以至於大家在討論這一次中聯油脂其實是有掩蓋的事實，報導上都是這樣寫，誰負責決定這個情資、這個資料、這個數據要不要通報？決定權在誰？當然是最高的負責人啊！最高的負責人要聽誰的？要聽這些大股東的，你去看這個結構，在這個結構當中，中聯油脂的董事長是由福懋油脂指派，總經理是由泰山指派，這兩個都是市場派的，問題點就出在這邊。","請次長在旁邊休息一下，我請審計長。審計長，你有沒有看到這些問題？制度面上，雖然公司法第八條第三項規定，實質控制人事，負刑事、行政罰之責任的人是實質負責人，甚至是最終受益人，所以後面的大股東以及影子董事，都應該被追溯，這件事情你認為是不是應該如此？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該這樣。"],["郭委員國文：是該這樣，那你是不是應該要求這些相關的部門，包括管理上市櫃的金管會，或者負責公司管理的經濟部有一些具體作為？當市場派入侵到一些關鍵產業的時候，如果造成相關的、類似的後遺症時該怎麼處理，審計長？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員講得很好，我們也在了解，因為不可能只由業者自主管理，因為和人性不太合。"],["郭委員國文：是啊！你講話太老實了！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：人性不是這樣，所以自主管理怎麼樣……"],["郭委員國文：就是人性導致的人禍。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以剛剛委員講的，經濟部、金管會慢慢也要借鏡，尤其是影響人民健康安全的這些，因為這個涉及重大的社會利益，所以我同意委員要求，我們會整個盤一次，照委員的意思把它盤出來，尤其現在的機制裡面有自主管理的部分，所以第三方驗證……"],["郭委員國文：把所有的責任歸到自主管理，但是它又不願意內稽內控，又沒有辦法專業管理，在這個情況底下該怎麼辦？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以第三方驗證還有政府加強抽查也很重要，但是自主管理也是很重要的，這個看怎麼去改進。"],["郭委員國文：好，這裡頭有幾個層面，自主管理、第三方認證，還有包括政府抽查以及檢舉制度，照理說是環環相扣的。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：各種自律、他律的制度都應該有，結果就出包在所謂的自主管理，出包到專業能力不足，出包到整個經營權易主，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以事後的追查、亡羊補牢很重要，在這個部分，經濟部跟金管會也逃不了責任，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：請審計長好好地去思考這個問題，我接下來還有一個問題，審計長你在旁邊稍微休息，我換次長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：次長，剛剛我們有提到第三方的問題，第三方的問題當中其實昨天行政院長也提到，第三方的通報義務不應該只有通報業者，是不是？也就是說，它應該也要通知行政部門，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["郭委員國文：也就是說，它如何同步勾稽通報，這是非常重要的，但是以我們第三方的公正機構SGS來說，相關權力的委外有沒有人力不足、專業不足的問題？專業的部分，我相信應該OK啦！人力的部分也會出現這個問題啊！所以你們是不是應該講一下？因為類似這一個事件對第三方的權力委託，不是只有衛福部這個單位而已，恐怕還有消防、環保、車輛等等，這些都是問題。等到這些問題你們……在這個事件當中，第三方發現了什麼問題，除了通報程序之外，第三方本身的問題，也麻煩你們整理出來……"],["林次長靜儀：我們會對於第三方相關的責任做處理。"],["郭委員國文：對，整理出來之後……審計長，麻煩你再來一下。審計長，剛剛已經提到第三方啊，對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：關於第三方的部分，我們把這麼多的公權力委託給第三方，第三方在這次通報的情況底下，顯然制度也有缺漏的地方嘛。你站在審計部的高位，是不是也應該透過這個時候去審視相關部門當中，對於第三方委託的過度依賴？以致於當他「出包」的時候，責任誰來扛？是行政部門來扛啊！也是造成國人的恐慌啊，你有沒有看到這個問題？誰答？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["郭委員國文：請說。怎麼辦？怎麼處理？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會去全面了解現在相關單位給第三方驗證的部分，我們會全面盤一次，看看是哪些單位，以及它做了些什麼事情。"],["郭委員國文：你要盤多久？你要盤到什麼時候？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我剛剛有答應前面一個委員，在三個月內。"],["郭委員國文：這個也納入三個月的範圍啦！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：我怕三個月以後，大家就會忘記這件事情，但是我會牢牢記住。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我儘量就這個事情幫忙國人……"],["郭委員國文：審計長，你以前也寫過一個……審計部也曾經有提過。這裡頭有幾個關卡，一個是源頭管理的邊境查驗人員不足問題，這個也類似啊！以前你也寫過，我不曉得你寫過之後，行政部門有沒有改？這是第一個問題。第二個，以前也曾經寫過，食安人力第一線，也就是後市場的部分，目前在衛福部編制的人力只有86人，地方政府的人力只有463人，那以地方政府來說，在第一線的後市場人力更加重要的情況底下，編制人員還是不足啦！你說是事實嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們提醒了邊境查驗的部分，行政院給了33人。地方的部分，我們會再查一次……"],["郭委員國文：再查一次？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這一次再查一下，看看食安人力如何。"],["郭委員國文：以現在地方政府的財政能力，足以落實這些人力編制啊？對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：應該整個財劃法修正以後……"],["郭委員國文：修正以後啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：食安人力的部分，我們會幫忙食藥署或幫忙衛福部來查……"],["郭委員國文：還有一個機制要處理，審計部自己也曾經提到，檢舉案件很少，獎金都發不出去，你都有發現問題啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我知道。"],["郭委員國文：但是問題還是問題啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那個……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼會形成這個問題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：獎金的機制……也要建立很好的獎金機制。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，你三個月又寫一次問題，結果問題還是變成問題，還是沒有解決問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會追蹤……"],["郭委員國文：你會追蹤？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會強力追蹤。"],["郭委員國文：我剛剛講的都是你講過的問題。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，我們會強力追蹤。"],["郭委員國文：到現在還是問題……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們會公布……"],["郭委員國文：以後會不會是問題？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：如果他不改善，我們會公布這些單位不改善的情形。"],["郭委員國文：好，我等著你的魄力表現啦！不要再三個月寫一份報告，而又是同樣的問題啦！好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們知道，因為我們發現這一次產生……我們通知了，他說要改善……"],["郭委員國文：這些都是你寫過的問題！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對。"],["郭委員國文：邊境人力不足、獎金發不出去！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這很多都是我們寫過的，我們知道，但是……"],["郭委員國文：這些都是他們的機構啊，對不對？這裡面就是他們的機構啊，不是嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：所以現在不改善的，我們就公布。"],["郭委員國文：把問題寫得嚴重一點來公布，看這種問題能不能解決？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝審計長、謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。","接下來請林岱樺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}