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包養員我們也認為應該要縮短因為因為我們過去的要求就是至少半年驗一次可是像中聯它四月到列月就總共做了29批那所以這個狀況之下如果地方政府它也是只有半年驗一次的話那這個評次真的太長所以我們接下來再調整我們會調整它的這個檢驗評次要縮短那依照不同的這個就是說大豆油的廠的規格半年六個月變三個月或者是原來三個月變一個半月"},{"start":66.701,"end":87.175,"text":"或者他的幾個批次之後我們就要驗一次我想這個應該要強化啦因為國恩對這個食安非常的重視另外呢從這個內積內控的部分有沒有可能強化的可能是我們接下來在食安法的標準我們現在正在規劃就是說因為他們都是要理論上他要送第三方他除了自己實驗室之外還要送第三方"},{"start":87.675,"end":114.444,"text":"那所以實驗室跟第三方要通報 第三方的部分待會兒本席會跟你就教就是它本身的部分的檢驗品項檢驗密度專業人員的配置關鍵部門的部門步驟行政部門有沒有辦法隨時掌握SGS 例如說像SGS或者是實驗室的標準這個部分是定期本來實驗室都有認證而且很多是拿國際認證但是麻煩是說這個實驗室就算品質很好驗出來有問題他們沒有通報我們就得"},{"start":114.744,"end":139.373,"text":"沒有辦法得到資訊 我一直說站在衛福部的一個主管機關來說你要隨時去Watch一些關鍵的一個製程或者是情資或者數字它一定要必要立旨的通告以避免系統性的風險的產生我覺得應該去過濾這一個啦我們在 應該去強化這一個業者本身內心內控老實講 那一定要增加成本啦"},{"start":140.493,"end":161.384,"text":"那二來呢你要增加行政成本的部分就是說你要監督的部分也非常的重要且關鍵那原因在哪裡本席繼續說明給你聽待會請沈記長上來一下沈記長你去看喔為什麼從金融業的部分來做切入因為其實在2023年的時候啊這一個泰山變天啊"},{"start":163.501,"end":185.059,"text":"2023年泰山變天2024年換福茂變天有經營權一組2025年這兩家公司分別改派中聯的董總結果2026就出事了連在哪裡因為這些市場派入主基本上專業程度都不夠但是資本實力比較強"},{"start":186.738,"end":211.291,"text":"那以至於呢大家在討論的說這一次中聯有指呢其實是有掩蓋的事實報導上都是這樣子處理誰負責說這個情資這個資料這個數據要不要通報決定選在誰當然是最高的這個負責人啊最高的負責人要聽誰的要聽這些大股東的你去看這個結構下一張"},{"start":214.682,"end":224.029,"text":"這個結構當中中聯郵址當中的董事長是由福茂郵址來指派總經理是由泰山來指派這兩個都是市場派的"},{"start":226.637,"end":251.07,"text":"問題點就出在這邊啊那我想請次長在旁邊休息一下我請沈進長沈進長你有沒有看到這些問題這問題當中呢我們在制度面上雖然啊在公司法當中的第八條第三項規定實質控制人事負責行事行政責任行政法治責任的人是要實質負責任甚至是最終受益人以至於後面的大股東以及引資董事都應該被追溯"},{"start":252.284,"end":276.613,"text":"這件事情你認為是不是應該如此應該這樣是應該這樣那你是不是應該要求啊這相關的部門包括管理上市櫃的金管會或者負責公司管理的這個經濟部有一些具體作為當市場派入侵到一些關鍵產業的時候可能會造成相關的類似的後遺症的時候怎麼處理行長"},{"start":280.071,"end":287.434,"text":"這個委員講得很好我們也在了解因為不可能靠越久的自主管理因為他人性不太合人性不是這樣所以自主管理怎麼樣"},{"start":298.337,"end":312.645,"text":"所以剛剛委員講的這個經濟部 經管會這個要慢慢也要借進來把這些尤其影響這個人民健康安全的這個因為這個涉及社會很重大"},{"start":313.826,"end":330.72,"text":"所以我同意委員 我們會整個盤意思 趙委員的意思 把它盤出來尤其 盡量吧 因為現在的機制裡面的自主管理是有所以 第三個證所有的責任歸到自主管理 但是他又不願意內機內控問題是他又沒有辦法專業管理的情況底下 怎麼辦啊"},{"start":335.925,"end":352.025,"text":"所以第三方認證還有政府的加強抽查也很重要但是自主管理是一個也是很重要的看怎麼去改進這裡頭有幾個層面自主管理 第三方認證還有包括政府抽查"},{"start":354.048,"end":370.106,"text":"政府的一個搜查那以及呢這個檢舉制度照說我們是環環相扣各種自律他律的制度都應該有結果呢就粗暴在所謂的自主管理粗暴到專業能力不足粗暴在整個經營權的一組對不對"},{"start":372.328,"end":399.559,"text":"所以說事後的追討 亡羊補牢在這個部份經濟部跟金管會也討不了責任啦 對不對那請那個沈議長你好好的去思考這個問題我接下來還有一個問題沈議長你在旁邊稍微休息我換一下這個那個次長 次長好 謝謝次長剛剛我們有提到所謂的這個第三方的問題啦第三方的問題當中呢其實在昨天的行政院長當中也提到說呢第三方的通報義務不應該只有通報業者"},{"start":401.058,"end":419.836,"text":"是不是也就是說他他應該也要通知行政部門是對不對是也就是說他如何同時同步勾擊通報這是非常重要的是但是以我們第三方的公證機構SGS來說啊相關的這個權力的一個委外啊"},{"start":421.004,"end":443.67,"text":"有沒有人力不足 專業不足的問題專業部分我相信應該OK啦人力的部分也會出現這個問題啊所以說你們是不是應該講一下因為類似我們這個事件當中的第三方的這個權力的這個委託恐怕不是只有衛福部這個單位而已恐怕還有消防 環保 車輛等等啊這些都是問題啊"},{"start":445.19,"end":454.935,"text":"等到這些問題你們如果該這個事件當中發現了什麼樣的問題第三方發現了什麼問題除了通報程序的問題之外第三方本身的什麼問題也麻煩你們整理出來"},{"start":455.697,"end":475.356,"text":"我們會對第三方相關的責任做對 整理出來之後 沈機長麻煩你再來一下沈機長 剛剛你就提到第三方啦 對不對對第三方的部分我們把這麼多的公權力委託給第三方對第三方在這次通報的情況底下顯然制度也有所缺漏的地方嘛對"},{"start":475.816,"end":495.448,"text":"那你站在審計部的高位當中是不是也應該透過這個時候去審視相關部門當中對於第三方的委託過度的依賴那以至於呢當他出包的時候責任誰來扛是憲政部門來扛啊也是造成國人的恐慌啊你有沒有看到這個問題有"},{"start":499.081,"end":509.512,"text":"請說我們會去前面了解現在的第三方相關單位給第三方的那個驗證的這個部分我們會前面盤一次看看是哪些單位你要盤到什麼時候"},{"start":517.661,"end":532.031,"text":"就我剛剛有答應前面一個委員三個月內這個也納入三個月的範圍啦對我怕三個月以後大家就會忘記這件事情啦但是我會勞勞其中我盡量把這個事情啊幫忙勾引那個沈議長你以前也寫過一個喔審計部曾經有提過喔這一頭有幾個關卡"},{"start":535.393,"end":563.156,"text":"一個呢是源頭的管理的邊際財產人員不足的問題啊這個也類似啊以前你也寫過我不曉得你寫過之後行政部門有沒有改啦這是第一個問題第二個呢以前也曾經寫過食安人路第一線也就是市場後的部分在衛福部的時候編制目前的人力只有86人啊地方政府的人力只有463人啊那以地方政府來說第一線的市場後人力更加的重要情況底下"},{"start":564.217,"end":590.216,"text":"編制人員還是不足啦我們提醒了 提醒了查案 那個編制查案啊行政院給了 給了33人那這個地方的部分啊 我們會再查一次再查一次 再查一下 看看啊 主張人力啊 如何以現在地方政府的財政能力 足以落實這些人力編制啊"},{"start":592.477,"end":599.583,"text":"應該整個財務修正以後這個食安準例我們會幫忙食藥署還有一個機制要處理審計部自己也曾經提到檢舉案件很少獎金都發不出去問題你都發現啊但是問題還是問題啊為什麼獎金的機制也要建立很好的獎金機制你三個月又寫一次問題"},{"start":617.797,"end":624.822,"text":"結果問題還是變成問題還是沒有解決問題我們會追蹤我們會強力追蹤我剛剛講的都是你講過的問題對我們會強力追蹤到現在是問題以後會不會是問題如果他不改善我們會公佈這些單位不改善的情形好我等著你的魄力的表現"},{"start":638.912,"end":660.379,"text":"不要再寫三個月一份報告又同樣的問題啊好不好我們知道因為我們發現這一次產生我們通知了問題都是你寫過的對邊境人類不足講進報告我們寫過我們知道這些都是他旅的機構啊對不對所以我們現在不改善我們公布對吧問題寫嚴重一點公布一點看這問題能不能解決謝謝市長謝謝市長謝謝郭國文委員接下來請林黛樺委員"},{"start":673.052,"end":674.619,"text":"好有請衛福部"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}