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各位同仁我想我們今天的議程安排主要是三大包第一包就是公務人員考試法第二包是公務人員任用法第三個是毒品危害防治條例這三個這樣子主要是這三個法案"},{"start":29.571,"end":49.12,"text":"那這個剛才前面委員齁大家針對這個土品國外防治條例的部分有很深入的討論那公務人員考試法的修正看起來也比較單純齁所以我今天主要就是針對這個公務人員任用法的部分齁我今天要來就教是不是請全序部市部長委員好"},{"start":56.534,"end":70.94,"text":"市部長好我想我們這次整個公務人員任用法的修正我看我們修正條文大概是有4條這是第10條、第17條、第22條、第40條22條跟40條爭議比較少一點我今天主要針對我們第10條跟第17條的修正這裡面有一些"},{"start":83.052,"end":106.01,"text":"有一些我們覺得應該要在整個修正修法討論過程中去釐清的一些部分來跟事務長這邊來探討首先是這個第十條我們第十條這個修正大概就是刪除刪除了本來說已經沒有考試入局人員可知分配"},{"start":106.834,"end":127.126,"text":"你才可以各機關才可以自行零用具任用資格的人本來有前提前提是兩個前提一個是已經沒有考試錄取的人員可自任用了這是第一個前提第二個前提是要經過分發機關的同意你才可以一個機關來自行零用"},{"start":131.325,"end":158.445,"text":"那現在我們把這兩個我們整個修法就是把這兩個拿掉了也是大概我看你們的立法說明裡面你們這是基於第一個是不是能夠促進人才的回流第二個希望能夠補足人力的缺口那第三個是這個也要提升用人的彈性這些方向都是對的我覺得這些方向都是對的但是我就想請問說我們假設我們這樣修法過了就把這個前提就沒有考試"},{"start":160.014,"end":169.253,"text":"入企的人員可知利用,還有不必經過分發機關的同意這樣拿掉,我們有評估可以改善多少人力缺口?有沒有去評估算過?"},{"start":171.586,"end":199.556,"text":"公務員11.8我們真的很難估算它的實際上效果我們是提供一個讓用人機關更大的彈性它的多元禁用更重要的前提是禁用人通常本來就是都具備公務員職責不是隨便可以去禁用那個不具備公務員職責所以這個一定要先說明那這個部分我當然了解而且我也支持啦我們就是能夠提升用人的彈性它最主要就是一方面人力缺口一方面我們知道人才可以回流"},{"start":200.416,"end":216.341,"text":"但是這個同時齁 這個修法同時要避免還是要避免掉就是說未來你這些機關你現在沒有這些前提條件了你未來機關我可能就直接傾向大家都傾向直接領選有經驗的人員了那你反而剛考試入局的這些人會排擠"},{"start":217.403,"end":234.963,"text":"排擠掉這些 這些 這些正額入 或正額入企的這些人員的分發機會會被排擠啊不過我也很不可能啊 其實我們這個是跟 譬如像人種大概都有充分溝通 跟用戶居然充分溝通即使我們把它拿掉 實務上做法還是有一些配套做法譬如像說我們現在實務做法"},{"start":236.385,"end":254.962,"text":"每年各機關要提報考試缺嘛就一個任用人計畫這個都還是經過這個人總或者是這邊一個所以他在那邊基本上還是繼續提缺那實際上如果你要領用非限職人員實務上過去也都是要分發機關的一個同意"},{"start":255.863,"end":268.652,"text":"過去人種的統計大概比例大概只有佔2.2%左右啦你說不同意的比例就是說同意啦同意他可以零用非限制差不多是2.多%意思就是說機關其實大部分都還適合維持"},{"start":273.795,"end":291.133,"text":"用提報考試缺啦啊真正有需要的時候呢那是因為以前需要分發機關的同意啊未來你不需要分發機關的同意我就是我那個想是說因為我了解啦我意思就是說不要賣排擠啦你不要說到時候大家各用機關大家都傾向自行零用"},{"start":292.333,"end":317.181,"text":"臨用這個有經驗的那反而這些考試分發這些人他們就只有他們的這個機會平等就分發機會我覺得這樣子啦未來如果我們真的修法完成我希望能夠建立定期的一個統計當然可以定期的統計跟監督的機制我沒有說因為這樣子我就反對這個事情我是說這個部分是真的要注意不要讓它排擠了這些證據的這個那另外比較"},{"start":318.221,"end":326.389,"text":"這次比較重大的改革是第17條就是我們這個健身檢剛才我們莊委在這裡也有跟你溝通過有關健身檢的訓練我們把整個升等的訓練整個拿掉未來這個升等就不需經過這個"},{"start":344.501,"end":362.756,"text":"晉升、兼任、官等訓練合格這個條件就不用了就拿掉了那我們看這整個其實這個有關於公務員晉升的這個訓練我這裡把立法嚴格列出來其實我們一直在2002年我們才首次引進這個晉升、兼任"},{"start":364.771,"end":386.331,"text":"關等的訓練這個制度到現在大概二十幾年我們現在等於把過去二十幾年我們這個訓練制度拿掉我們的這個最主要的考量是什麼我想最主要的考量其實有兩個啦我必須坦白講最主要的考量是說當一個"},{"start":388.55,"end":414.463,"text":"已經工作那麼久到九等本來前面就已經工作很久了資深的同仁他適不適合再繼續往上升任檢任擔任職務其實誰最清楚一定是機關透過他的內部的評選程序是最清楚所以不是 這才是真正的一個狀況那機關怎麼樣訓練人力他們有自己一套的方式在平常做的從這裡面包括工作指派包括各自讓他上來"},{"start":415.123,"end":442.899,"text":"這是真正應該是機關為本位用人機關為本位第二個當你加入了這個制度讓他去做教室裡面一個月的集中訓練結果是結論是說他要通過他才有機會再上去他如果不通過他就完全沒有這個機會那這個其實是蠻否定的用人機關平常的觀察那更何況去參加訓練室一個月那個真的成本非常非常大就訓完要取得一個資格很多人沒有升遷啊"},{"start":445.319,"end":463.944,"text":"因為這個法條我看你們這個條文的文字修正大概基本上除了說拿掉學歷條件以外你基本上就是有關於晉升升等訓練的你們都修改文字沒有多少修改文字沒有多少但是你們的立法理由寫得非常多啦也就是說你們認為你們要說明"},{"start":466.935,"end":490.897,"text":"認為說必須要有這麼多文字來說明我們為什麼要做這個立法因為它不能說是一個小的變革這個理由裡面我想過去其實我調閱了過去我們所謂的健身檢的任官訓練我調過去十年的統計記錄整體的及格率大概都到九成"},{"start":492.718,"end":495.242,"text":"我這平均下來是90.9%差不多10%左右不及格那這個是因為我們也認為這個訓練欠缺的鑑別"},{"start":503.599,"end":524.585,"text":"他鉛別的這個鑑別度還是說你訓練跟實際的這個這個升任脫節了還是這個這個我們變成說過去我們過去其實有質疑啦質疑說你這個這個這個及格率一直都到九成以上你這完全沒有鑑別度你也沒有什麼淘汰沒有這個篩選淘汰"},{"start":527.006,"end":543.82,"text":"那當時我們的回答都是說這個訓練是為了共同培育不是為了篩選淘汰所以大家共同培育培育這麼多九成上來這個是因為目標是共同培育那我們現在拿掉的理由是不是也因為他是沒有鑑別我們也認為這個整個訓練是沒有鑑別度呢應該這樣講"},{"start":551.189,"end":565.845,"text":"我還是說 我們最重要的理由還是回過頭來一個這麼高階的職務 誰適合 誰不適合其實真正應該是用人機 他的服務機關 用人機關是最好的判斷的一個透過他們內部的一個 其實最好的一個判斷一個主體啦"},{"start":569.248,"end":587.806,"text":"你去參加一個月的一個訓練那還是一個教室的訓練然後訓練完結果告訴你說這個人適不適合繼續擔任未來一個職務老實說是有很多的一個爭論這個到最後還是就回到剛才我們昭偉所問的就是說你這樣子"},{"start":589.804,"end":608.236,"text":"未來高階文官需要的這些領導管理規劃政策跟跨機關的協調能力我們過去是說我們透過這個訓練的共同培育來培養那現在把這個訓練制度拿掉那未來我們要用什麼樣的方式這個方式其實各機關以外會不會像莊教練講的就是變成首長個人的主觀"},{"start":612.939,"end":635.438,"text":"首長個人的主觀評價對於這個檢認資格的取得他實際升遷的影響會不會變得太大我應該這樣講啦在沒有這個引進這個制度以前也都是有烤雞升遷在座非常多高階文官通通是這樣上來的所以在過去還沒有這個訓練制度之前都就是這樣一個制度我沒有改變但是回歸原來的制度這個還是更好的一個運作大家都是這樣上來的然後我們也不覺得"},{"start":636.67,"end":657.222,"text":"他們一定表現得更差那不然就不會現在上來那你加了這個制度進去以後其實它就是一個關卡這個關卡本身對機關的用人機關的一個判斷這個是不是老實說效果不是很有限所以如果我們做這個東西真的是所有的公務通人你們在立法理由說明裡面有說啦就是剛剛部長剛剛講的就是說"},{"start":660.287,"end":673.739,"text":"要恢復早期由用人機關自行發展培育的做法這是恢復到回到以前沒有現在就用人機關自己去培育培育這個相關的能力他還是有考期的一些前提的要求的這個當然"},{"start":676.431,"end":696.429,"text":"但是未來各個機關自行辦理自行不同機關對高階文化的培育他的內容他的能力標準這些他們自行辦理我們有沒有會不會有一個統一的應該這樣講我們現在實務上各機關本來就在做然後我知道人種的我們人種那個公共人力發展學院他本身也會辦各式各樣這個一個"},{"start":697.694,"end":707.871,"text":"一個提供高階公務同仁學習的機會更何況我們也有類似申檢任官等的那種訓練這都還是法律 他們都會去辦這些事情我這時間我有兩個問題第一個就是說"},{"start":710.936,"end":730.307,"text":"我們在這個立法說明裡面我們提到說年資採計屬於實務執行的細節性技術性事項將由本法施行細則中去訂定這在我們立法說明裡面有提到請問我們這個哪一些事項我們要納入施行細則什麼時候我們施行細則什麼時候會完成我們有沒有草案"},{"start":738.592,"end":762.259,"text":"目前這個事情應該是當這會跟我們提的烤雞法也一定有一定的相關對因為你這個烤雞法未來如果烤雞法我們修了我們這個還要再修一次不會再修我們修施行細則我們施行細則現在都還沒修啦沒有你這個你這裡面有一大堆有關甲等對甲等的一些規定我們未來烤雞法變成優秀良好未達良好你這個這在施行細則裡面會去做一些"},{"start":762.679,"end":784.996,"text":"在私營系裡面修改就可以了嗎因為我們那個考記法一個母法一個條文就是未來那個如果原來的法律規定了什麼甲乙丙丁要怎麼換算成那個會在考記法裡面規定本來就一個會在考記法裡面去規定已經受一個法院授權了最後一個問題就是說我們這一次這個修法我們把這個學歷限制這些訓練這個訓練都把它拿掉那現在已經接受過訓練的人"},{"start":793.385,"end":810.411,"text":"這個我們草案裡面說明說不因為本市修法影響其所具用的所具的任用資格這本已經完成訓練了他繼續有取得這個資格那這些已經受訓的這些人他保留了檢認任用資格但是他並沒有不代表他們取得有優先的升遷的權利"},{"start":811.939,"end":827.225,"text":"就是還是回復到機關裡面也就是說白受訓了因為他也沒有優先就像跟委員報過去受訓的也是大概是二十幾%的人有機會這個後來升遷啦所以這個事情我們只能講說已經取得了就繼續取得"},{"start":827.665,"end":842.679,"text":"但是我們法律不太適合說他們要變成一個優先或者未來如果機關裡面呢他們自己在做內部決定說升遷或什麼一些考量他們要想把這個事情放作一個規定我們都尊重機關這個他其實嚴格講他會有點造成這個他們資格取得10點上面的這個"},{"start":849.425,"end":869.005,"text":"差異啦,事實的差異啦,就變成我現在已經受訓完的人跟新制採用新制根本不用受訓的人他在這個未來,如果救治人員他的這個資格可以長期保留的話那新制人員他要等到他要第一次這個升任的時候才進行審查,這會造成他"},{"start":870.005,"end":889.951,"text":"這個資格取得的10點跟他的穩定性跟審查標準會有一些差異這部分我希望說我們能夠再進一步我們細節上我再跟委員再做最後一個我就只問而已就不用你們回答我們再等到這個逐條的時候就是我們有關於這個我們這個公務人員考試法我們這次修正的這個第四條"},{"start":892.044,"end":914.248,"text":"這個我們修改成親自養育未滿7歲的子女或孫子女這個親自養育這幾個字我覺得在定義上面我非常不解不解什麼是親自養育什麼樣是不親自養育這部分我希望說未來在這個主條討論的時候我們能夠說明清楚以上"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:06.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:06.229000+08:00","text":"主席、各位同仁。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:06.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:07.750000+08:00","text":"今天議程的安排主要有三大包：第一是公務人員考試法；第二是公務人員任用法；第三是毒品危害防制條例三個法案。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:37.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:52.059000+08:00","text":"剛才前面質詢的委員已經針對毒品危害防制條例有很深入的討論，而公務人員考試法的修正看起來也比較單純，所以我今天主要針對公務人員任用法來就教。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:52.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:55.040000+08:00","text":"是不是請銓敘部施部長？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:04:55.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:04:55.100000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:02.634000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:02.894000+08:00","text":"施部長好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:04.255000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:15.400000+08:00","text":"這次公務人員任用法的修正條文大概有四條，第十條、第十七條、第二十二條及第四十條。","quality":0.694},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:15.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:39.280000+08:00","text":"其中，第二十二條及第四十條的爭議比較少一點，所以我今天主要針對第十條和第十七條的修正，因為裡面有一些在修法討論過程中應該要去釐清的問題，故在此與施部長探討。","quality":0.589},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:39.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:41.401000+08:00","text":"首先是第十條。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:05:41.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:05:59.878000+08:00","text":"第十條的修正刪除已無考試錄取人員可資分配，各機關才可以自行遴用具任用資格的人。","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:00.339000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:13.106000+08:00","text":"這條本來有前提，而且前提有兩個：一個是已經沒有考試錄取人員可資任用，這是第一個前提；第二個前提是要經過分發機關同意，各機關始可自行遴用。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:17.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:33.917000+08:00","text":"這次修法等於把這兩個前提拿掉了，我看過你們的立法說明，你們說：第一個，希望能促進人才回流；第二個，希望能夠補足人力的缺口；第三個，提升用人的彈性。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:35.659000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:53.730000+08:00","text":"我覺得這些方向都是對的，但是我想請問，假設修法通過了，將沒有考試錄取人員可資任用及不必經過分發機關同意的兩個前提拿掉後，你們有評估過可以改善多少人力缺口？","quality":0.792},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:54.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:06:55.253000+08:00","text":"有沒有估算過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:06:58.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:06.389000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，我們真的很難估算其實際上的效果，不過這可以讓用人機關擁有更大的彈性與多元進用。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:06.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:12.631000+08:00","text":"更重要的前提是，所進用人員原本即具備公務人員資格，因此並非隨便進用不具備資格之人……當然。","quality":0.525},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:13.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:13.932000+08:00","text":"這點一定要先說明。對。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:15.532000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:25.536000+08:00","text":"這部分我大概了解，我也支持提升用人的彈性，一方面可以補足人力缺口，另一方面讓人才可以回流。","quality":0.805},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:26.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:07:49.110000+08:00","text":"但在修法同時還是要避免一些問題，也就是未來這些機關已經沒有這些前提條件了，如此，就可能傾向直接遴選有經驗的人員，反而排擠掉剛剛考試錄取的正額錄取或增額錄取人員的分發機會。","quality":0.713},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:07:51.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:00.303000+08:00","text":"報告委員，其實我們跟人總及用人機關有做過充分溝通，即使拿掉，但在實務上還是有配套做法。","quality":0.641},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:00.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:12.775000+08:00","text":"譬如現在的實務做法是，每年各機關都要提報考試缺，如此就會有用人計畫，而這些還是要經過人總或……所以基本上還是會繼續提缺。","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:13.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:27.267000+08:00","text":"實務上如果要遴用非現職人員缺，過去都要分發機關同意，根據人總的統計，這方面的比例大概只占2%左右……","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:27.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:28.668000+08:00","text":"你說的是不同意的比例？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:28.668000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:29.929000+08:00","text":"同意可以遴用非現職……","quality":0.222},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:29.929000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:30.309000+08:00","text":"同意的比例……","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:32.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:43.018000+08:00","text":"差不多是2%多，意思就是大部分機關還是維持提報考試缺，真正有需要的時候……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:43.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:46.802000+08:00","text":"因為以前需要分發機關同意，一旦未來不需要分發機關同意時……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:49.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:08:50.186000+08:00","text":"我了解……","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:08:50.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:03.875000+08:00","text":"我意思是不要排擠，不要讓各用人機關都自行遴用有經驗的人，如此反而影響到這些考試分發人員的機會平等。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:08.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:11.897000+08:00","text":"未來如果真的修法完成，我希望能夠建立定期統計與監督機制。","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:11.897000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:12.758000+08:00","text":"當然可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:15.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:17.179000+08:00","text":"我沒有因為這樣就反對這事情……當然。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:18.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:20.800000+08:00","text":"不過這問題真的要注意，不要排擠到這些正取人員。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:22.861000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:29.346000+08:00","text":"另外，這次比較重大的改革是第十七條，也就是薦升簡一事，剛才召委也跟你溝通過。","quality":0.735},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:29.346000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:09:55.045000+08:00","text":"有關薦升簡的訓練，現在打算將整個升等訓練拿掉，未來升等就不需經過晉升簡任官等訓練合格，這個條件就不用了，就拿掉了。","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:09:59.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:04.472000+08:00","text":"有關公務人員晉升訓練，我把立法沿革列出來了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:04.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:16.557000+08:00","text":"其實在2002年才首次引進晉升簡任官等的訓練制度，迄今大概二十幾年。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:19.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:27.627000+08:00","text":"現在等於要把過去二十幾年的訓練制度拿掉，最主要的考量是什麼？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:27.987000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:30.209000+08:00","text":"最主要的考量有兩個。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:30.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:43.414000+08:00","text":"我必須坦白講，最主要考量是：當一個已經工作那麼久、到九等的同仁，前面本來就已經工作很久的資深同仁，到底適不適合再繼續往上陞任簡任、擔任職務？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:43.414000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:44.135000+08:00","text":"其實誰最清楚？","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:45.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:52.739000+08:00","text":"一定是機關透過內部評選程序，這是最清楚的，而這才是真正的狀況。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:53.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:10:54.440000+08:00","text":"至於機關怎麼訓練人力？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:10:54.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:11:04.325000+08:00","text":"他們平常就有自己的一套方式，包括工作指派、包括各個事項讓他升上來，這是以用人機關為本位。","quality":0.775},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:11:04.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:11:21.334000+08:00","text":"第二個，當你加入了制度，讓他在教室裡做一個月的集中訓練，而且要通過後才有機會再上去；如果不通過，就完全沒有機會，這其實否定了用人機關平常的觀察！","quality":0.908},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:11:22.075000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:11:28.879000+08:00","text":"更何況參加訓練要一個月，時間成本真的非常非常大，受訓完以後僅取得資格，還是有很多人沒有陞遷。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:11:33.240000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:11:42.202000+08:00","text":"我看過你們條文的文字修正，基本上除了拿掉學歷條件以外，有關於晉升、升等訓練你們都修改了。對。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:11:43.902000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:11:59.461000+08:00","text":"其實修改的文字沒有多少，但你們的立法理由寫得非常多，也就是你們認為必須要有這麼多文字才能說明為什麼要如此立法，因為這不能說是一個小變革。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:04.425000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:12:19.559000+08:00","text":"其實我調閱過去十年薦升簡任官等訓練統計紀錄，整體及格率大概都到九成，平均是90.9%……","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:19.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:12:20.360000+08:00","text":"差不多有10%左右不及格。對。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:20.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:12:34.961000+08:00","text":"你們也認為這個訓練欠缺鑑別度，還是你們的訓練與實際的陞任脫節了？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:39.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:12:50.565000+08:00","text":"過去其實也有過質疑，因為及格率一直都在九成以上，完全沒有鑑別度，也沒有篩選淘汰。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:53.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:12:58.891000+08:00","text":"當時的回答都說訓練是為了共同培育，不是為了篩選淘汰！","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:12:59.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:13:09.780000+08:00","text":"所以在共同培育下培育了這麼多，甚至達到九成，因為目標是共同培育，現在拿掉的理由是不是也因為整個訓練沒有鑑別度？","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:13:09.820000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:13:28.882000+08:00","text":"應該這樣講，我們最重要理由的還是要回過頭來看，一個這麼高階的職務，誰適合、誰不適合，其實用人機關、服務機關這個主體應該可以透過內部機制來做最好的判斷。","quality":0.721},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:13:35.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:13:45.578000+08:00","text":"如果因為去參加了一個月的訓練，而且還是在教室內的訓練，然後訓練完告訴你說這個人適不適合繼續擔任未來的職務？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:13:45.578000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:13:48.982000+08:00","text":"老實說是有很多爭論的。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:13:48.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:12.255000+08:00","text":"到最後還是要回到剛才召委所問的，未來高階文官需要的領導管理、規劃政策跟跨機關的協調能力，過去我們是透過訓練的共同培育來培養，現在要把這個訓練制度拿掉，未來我們要用什麼樣的方式？","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:12.255000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:13.255000+08:00","text":"會不會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:12.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:13.316000+08:00","text":"這個方式其實除了各機關以外……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:13.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:24.304000+08:00","text":"會不會像莊召委講的，變成是首長個人的主觀評價，對於簡任資格的取得，實際陞遷的影響會不會變得太大？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:24.544000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:32.831000+08:00","text":"我應該這樣講啦，在沒有引進這個制度以前，也都是由考績陞遷，在座非常多高階文官通通是這樣上來的。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:33.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:34.813000+08:00","text":"這是在過去還沒有這個訓練制度之前。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:34.973000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:14:46.092000+08:00","text":"都是這樣的制度，我們沒有改變，是回歸原來的制度，這個還是更好的運作，大家都是這樣上來的，我們也不覺得他們一定表現得更差，否則就不會現在上來。","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:14:46.432000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:15:00.601000+08:00","text":"在加了這個制度進去以後，其實它就是一個關卡，這個關卡本身對用人機關判斷這個人適不適合，老實說，效果很有限，所以如果我們就這個東西，真的是所有公務同仁很支持的方式。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:15:00.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:15:15.675000+08:00","text":"你們在立法理由說明裡面有說啦，就是部長剛剛講的，就是要恢復早期由用人機關自行發展培育的做法，回到以前，由用人機關自己去培育相關的能力。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:15:16.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:15:19.178000+08:00","text":"他還是有考績及一些前提的要求。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:15:19.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:15:32.480000+08:00","text":"這當然、這當然，但是未來各個機關自行辦理，不同機關對高階文官的培育，他的內容、他的能力標準，這些由他們自行辦理，你們會不會有一個統一的……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:15:33.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:15:52.329000+08:00","text":"應該這樣講，現在實務上，各機關本來就在做了，我知道人總的公務人力發展學院，它本身也會辦理各式各樣提供高階公務同仁學習的機會，更何況，我們也有類似升簡任官等的那種訓練，這些都還是法律，他們都會去辦這些事情。","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:15:53.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:14.306000+08:00","text":"時間的關係，我有兩個問題啦，第一個，你們在立法說明裡面提到，年資採計屬於實務執行的細節性、技術性事項，將由本法施行細則中去訂定，這在立法說明裡面有提到啦，將於本法施行細則去訂定，請問哪一些事項要納入施行細則？","quality":0.819},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:15.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:15.987000+08:00","text":"施行細則什麼時會完成？","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:16.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:16.287000+08:00","text":"你們有沒有草案？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:25.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:30.894000+08:00","text":"這也會跟我們提的考績法一定有一些相關。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:30.894000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:31.234000+08:00","text":"對，因為你這個……","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:31.234000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:32.234000+08:00","text":"考績法、任用法通過以後，我們就會……","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:31.994000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:35.095000+08:00","text":"未來如果考績法修正了，我們是不是還要再修一次？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:35.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:38.276000+08:00","text":"不會再修，我們修施行細則，施行細則我們現在還沒修啦。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:38.536000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:46.458000+08:00","text":"沒有，你這裡面有一大堆有關甲等的一些規定，未來考績法變成優秀、良好、未達良好，你這個……","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:46.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:48.239000+08:00","text":"這個在施行細則裡面會去做一些……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:48.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:50.400000+08:00","text":"在實施行細則裡面修改就可以了嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:50.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:16:57.566000+08:00","text":"對，因為考績法這個母法有一個條文，原來法律規定的甲、乙、丙、丁要怎麼換算成……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:16:58.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:02.410000+08:00","text":"會在考績法裡面去規定？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:02.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:04.391000+08:00","text":"已經有一個法源授權了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:05.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:26.507000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題，這一次修法，我們把學歷限制、訓練都拿掉了，現在已經接受過訓練的人，你們草案裡面的說明提到，不因為本次修法影響其所具的任用資格，這些人本來已經完成訓練了。","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:27.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:29.028000+08:00","text":"當然他會繼續取得這個資格。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:29.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:36.391000+08:00","text":"這些已經受訓過的人，保留了簡任任用資格，不代表他們取得優先陞遷的權利啊。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:38.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:39.720000+08:00","text":"還是回復到機關裡面……","quality":1},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:40.100000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:17:43.081000+08:00","text":"也就是說白受訓了，因為他也沒有優先。","quality":1},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:17:44.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:18:07.778000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，過去受訓的大概是百分之二十幾的人後來有機會陞遷，所以這個事情我們只能講說已經取得了就繼續取得，但是我們在法律中不太適合讓他們變成一個優先，或者未來如果機關裡面，他們自己在做內部決定說陞遷或什麼一些考量，他們想把這個事情當作一個waiting，我們都尊重機關去……","quality":0.844},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:18:07.778000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:18:42.687000+08:00","text":"這個部分其實嚴格講，會有點造成他們資格取得時點上面的實質的差異，就變成現在已經受訓完的人跟採用新制根本不用受訓的人，在未來，如果舊制人員他的資格可以長期保留的話，新制人員要等到第一次陞任的時候才進行審查，這會造成他們資格取得的時點，跟他的穩定性、審查標準會有一些差異啦，這部分我希望你們能夠再進一步……","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"施部長能傑","start":"2026-07-15T10:18:43.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:18:45.288000+08:00","text":"好，細節上會後我再跟委員做說明。","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:18:45.728000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:19:19.587000+08:00","text":"最後一個問題，我只提問而已，就不用你們回答了，等到逐條的時候再來討論，就是有關於公務人員考試法這一次修正的第四條，修改成親自養育未滿七歲的子女或孫子女，所謂的「親自養育」這幾個字，我覺得在定義上面我非常不解啦，我不了解什麼叫做親自養育，什麼樣是不親自養育，這部分我希望未來在逐條討論的時候，你們能夠說明清楚。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"沈委員發惠","start":"2026-07-15T10:19:20.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:19:20.228000+08:00","text":"好，以上。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:19:20.728000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:19:22.728000+08:00","text":"謝謝沈發惠委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:19:23.028000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:19:39.599429+08:00","text":"部長，你看我們兩個人也沒有串通，但問的問題都一樣，譬如說政務官的部分，因為民主制度的改選，到最後大搬風，這在全世界都是很正常的嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:19:39.899429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:19:56.470857+08:00","text":"問題是事務官的部分，基層的養成，然後到最後的陞遷，其實跟任用無關啦，一個當部長的人，他會找一個整天在給你搗蛋的人來當你的機要嗎？","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:19:56.770857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:20:06.485143+08:00","text":"那是不可能的事情嘛，但他基本這樣子上來，機會有沒有公平跟客觀，這個才是重點。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:20:06.785143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:20:09.928000+08:00","text":"接下來請范雲委員做詢答。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":569,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時4分）主席、各位同仁。今天議程的安排主要有三大包：第一是公務人員考試法；第二是公務人員任用法；第三是毒品危害防制條例三個法案。剛才前面質詢的委員已經針對毒品危害防制條例有很深入的討論，而公務人員考試法的修正看起來也比較單純，所以我今天主要針對公務人員任用法來就教。是不是請銓敘部施部長？"],["施部長能傑：委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：施部長好。這次公務人員任用法的修正條文大概有四條，第十條、第十七條、第二十二條及第四十條。其中，第二十二條及第四十條的爭議比較少一點，所以我今天主要針對第十條和第十七條的修正，因為裡面有一些在修法討論過程中應該要去釐清的問題，故在此與施部長探討。","首先是第十條。第十條的修正刪除已無考試錄取人員可資分配，各機關才可以自行遴用具任用資格的人。這條本來有前提，而且前提有兩個：一個是已經沒有考試錄取人員可資任用，這是第一個前提；第二個前提是要經過分發機關同意，各機關始可自行遴用。這次修法等於把這兩個前提拿掉了，我看過你們的立法說明，你們說：第一個，希望能促進人才回流；第二個，希望能夠補足人力的缺口；第三個，提升用人的彈性。我覺得這些方向都是對的，但是我想請問，假設修法通過了，將沒有考試錄取人員可資任用及不必經過分發機關同意的兩個前提拿掉後，你們有評估過可以改善多少人力缺口？有沒有估算過？"],["施部長能傑：向委員報告，我們真的很難估算其實際上的效果，不過這可以讓用人機關擁有更大的彈性與多元進用。更重要的前提是，所進用人員原本即具備公務人員資格，因此並非隨便進用不具備資格之人……"],["沈委員發惠：當然。"],["施部長能傑：這點一定要先說明。"],["沈委員發惠：對。這部分我大概了解，我也支持提升用人的彈性，一方面可以補足人力缺口，另一方面讓人才可以回流。但在修法同時還是要避免一些問題，也就是未來這些機關已經沒有這些前提條件了，如此，就可能傾向直接遴選有經驗的人員，反而排擠掉剛剛考試錄取的正額錄取或增額錄取人員的分發機會。"],["施部長能傑：報告委員，其實我們跟人總及用人機關有做過充分溝通，即使拿掉，但在實務上還是有配套做法。譬如現在的實務做法是，每年各機關都要提報考試缺，如此就會有用人計畫，而這些還是要經過人總或……所以基本上還是會繼續提缺。實務上如果要遴用非現職人員缺，過去都要分發機關同意，根據人總的統計，這方面的比例大概只占2%左右……"],["沈委員發惠：你說的是不同意的比例？"],["施部長能傑：同意可以遴用非現職……"],["沈委員發惠：同意的比例……"],["施部長能傑：差不多是2%多，意思就是大部分機關還是維持提報考試缺，真正有需要的時候……"],["沈委員發惠：因為以前需要分發機關同意，一旦未來不需要分發機關同意時……"],["施部長能傑：我了解……"],["沈委員發惠：我意思是不要排擠，不要讓各用人機關都自行遴用有經驗的人，如此反而影響到這些考試分發人員的機會平等。未來如果真的修法完成，我希望能夠建立定期統計與監督機制。"],["施部長能傑：當然可以。"],["沈委員發惠：我沒有因為這樣就反對這事情……"],["施部長能傑：當然。"],["沈委員發惠：不過這問題真的要注意，不要排擠到這些正取人員。另外，這次比較重大的改革是第十七條，也就是薦升簡一事，剛才召委也跟你溝通過。有關薦升簡的訓練，現在打算將整個升等訓練拿掉，未來升等就不需經過晉升簡任官等訓練合格，這個條件就不用了，就拿掉了。","有關公務人員晉升訓練，我把立法沿革列出來了。其實在2002年才首次引進晉升簡任官等的訓練制度，迄今大概二十幾年。現在等於要把過去二十幾年的訓練制度拿掉，最主要的考量是什麼？"],["施部長能傑：最主要的考量有兩個。我必須坦白講，最主要考量是：當一個已經工作那麼久、到九等的同仁，前面本來就已經工作很久的資深同仁，到底適不適合再繼續往上陞任簡任、擔任職務？其實誰最清楚？一定是機關透過內部評選程序，這是最清楚的，而這才是真正的狀況。至於機關怎麼訓練人力？他們平常就有自己的一套方式，包括工作指派、包括各個事項讓他升上來，這是以用人機關為本位。第二個，當你加入了制度，讓他在教室裡做一個月的集中訓練，而且要通過後才有機會再上去；如果不通過，就完全沒有機會，這其實否定了用人機關平常的觀察！更何況參加訓練要一個月，時間成本真的非常非常大，受訓完以後僅取得資格，還是有很多人沒有陞遷。"],["沈委員發惠：我看過你們條文的文字修正，基本上除了拿掉學歷條件以外，有關於晉升、升等訓練你們都修改了。"],["施部長能傑：對。"],["沈委員發惠：其實修改的文字沒有多少，但你們的立法理由寫得非常多，也就是你們認為必須要有這麼多文字才能說明為什麼要如此立法，因為這不能說是一個小變革。其實我調閱過去十年薦升簡任官等訓練統計紀錄，整體及格率大概都到九成，平均是90.9%……"],["施部長能傑：差不多有10%左右不及格。"],["沈委員發惠：對。你們也認為這個訓練欠缺鑑別度，還是你們的訓練與實際的陞任脫節了？過去其實也有過質疑，因為及格率一直都在九成以上，完全沒有鑑別度，也沒有篩選淘汰。當時的回答都說訓練是為了共同培育，不是為了篩選淘汰！所以在共同培育下培育了這麼多，甚至達到九成，因為目標是共同培育，現在拿掉的理由是不是也因為整個訓練沒有鑑別度？"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，我們最重要理由的還是要回過頭來看，一個這麼高階的職務，誰適合、誰不適合，其實用人機關、服務機關這個主體應該可以透過內部機制來做最好的判斷。如果因為去參加了一個月的訓練，而且還是在教室內的訓練，然後訓練完告訴你說這個人適不適合繼續擔任未來的職務？老實說是有很多爭論的。"],["沈委員發惠：到最後還是要回到剛才召委所問的，未來高階文官需要的領導管理、規劃政策跟跨機關的協調能力，過去我們是透過訓練的共同培育來培養，現在要把這個訓練制度拿掉，未來我們要用什麼樣的方式？會不會……"],["施部長能傑：這個方式其實除了各機關以外……"],["沈委員發惠：會不會像莊召委講的，變成是首長個人的主觀評價，對於簡任資格的取得，實際陞遷的影響會不會變得太大？"],["施部長能傑：我應該這樣講啦，在沒有引進這個制度以前，也都是由考績陞遷，在座非常多高階文官通通是這樣上來的。"],["沈委員發惠：這是在過去還沒有這個訓練制度之前。"],["施部長能傑：都是這樣的制度，我們沒有改變，是回歸原來的制度，這個還是更好的運作，大家都是這樣上來的，我們也不覺得他們一定表現得更差，否則就不會現在上來。在加了這個制度進去以後，其實它就是一個關卡，這個關卡本身對用人機關判斷這個人適不適合，老實說，效果很有限，所以如果我們就這個東西，真的是所有公務同仁很支持的方式。"],["沈委員發惠：你們在立法理由說明裡面有說啦，就是部長剛剛講的，就是要恢復早期由用人機關自行發展培育的做法，回到以前，由用人機關自己去培育相關的能力。"],["施部長能傑：他還是有考績及一些前提的要求。"],["沈委員發惠：這當然、這當然，但是未來各個機關自行辦理，不同機關對高階文官的培育，他的內容、他的能力標準，這些由他們自行辦理，你們會不會有一個統一的……"],["施部長能傑：應該這樣講，現在實務上，各機關本來就在做了，我知道人總的公務人力發展學院，它本身也會辦理各式各樣提供高階公務同仁學習的機會，更何況，我們也有類似升簡任官等的那種訓練，這些都還是法律，他們都會去辦這些事情。"],["沈委員發惠：時間的關係，我有兩個問題啦，第一個，你們在立法說明裡面提到，年資採計屬於實務執行的細節性、技術性事項，將由本法施行細則中去訂定，這在立法說明裡面有提到啦，將於本法施行細則去訂定，請問哪一些事項要納入施行細則？施行細則什麼時會完成？你們有沒有草案？"],["施部長能傑：這也會跟我們提的考績法一定有一些相關。"],["沈委員發惠：對，因為你這個……"],["施部長能傑：考績法、任用法通過以後，我們就會……"],["沈委員發惠：未來如果考績法修正了，我們是不是還要再修一次？"],["施部長能傑：不會再修，我們修施行細則，施行細則我們現在還沒修啦。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，你這裡面有一大堆有關甲等的一些規定，未來考績法變成優秀、良好、未達良好，你這個……"],["施部長能傑：這個在施行細則裡面會去做一些……"],["沈委員發惠：在實施行細則裡面修改就可以了嗎？"],["施部長能傑：對，因為考績法這個母法有一個條文，原來法律規定的甲、乙、丙、丁要怎麼換算成……"],["沈委員發惠：會在考績法裡面去規定？"],["施部長能傑：已經有一個法源授權了。"],["沈委員發惠：最後一個問題，這一次修法，我們把學歷限制、訓練都拿掉了，現在已經接受過訓練的人，你們草案裡面的說明提到，不因為本次修法影響其所具的任用資格，這些人本來已經完成訓練了。"],["施部長能傑：當然他會繼續取得這個資格。"],["沈委員發惠：這些已經受訓過的人，保留了簡任任用資格，不代表他們取得優先陞遷的權利啊。"],["施部長能傑：還是回復到機關裡面……"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說白受訓了，因為他也沒有優先。"],["施部長能傑：跟委員報告，過去受訓的大概是百分之二十幾的人後來有機會陞遷，所以這個事情我們只能講說已經取得了就繼續取得，但是我們在法律中不太適合讓他們變成一個優先，或者未來如果機關裡面，他們自己在做內部決定說陞遷或什麼一些考量，他們想把這個事情當作一個waiting，我們都尊重機關去……"],["沈委員發惠：這個部分其實嚴格講，會有點造成他們資格取得時點上面的實質的差異，就變成現在已經受訓完的人跟採用新制根本不用受訓的人，在未來，如果舊制人員他的資格可以長期保留的話，新制人員要等到第一次陞任的時候才進行審查，這會造成他們資格取得的時點，跟他的穩定性、審查標準會有一些差異啦，這部分我希望你們能夠再進一步……"],["施部長能傑：好，細節上會後我再跟委員做說明。"],["沈委員發惠：最後一個問題，我只提問而已，就不用你們回答了，等到逐條的時候再來討論，就是有關於公務人員考試法這一次修正的第四條，修改成親自養育未滿七歲的子女或孫子女，所謂的「親自養育」這幾個字，我覺得在定義上面我非常不解啦，我不了解什麼叫做親自養育，什麼樣是不親自養育，這部分我希望未來在逐條討論的時候，你們能夠說明清楚。好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。部長，你看我們兩個人也沒有串通，但問的問題都一樣，譬如說政務官的部分，因為民主制度的改選，到最後大搬風，這在全世界都是很正常的嘛！問題是事務官的部分，基層的養成，然後到最後的陞遷，其實跟任用無關啦，一個當部長的人，他會找一個整天在給你搗蛋的人來當你的機要嗎？那是不可能的事情嘛，但他基本這樣子上來，機會有沒有公平跟客觀，這個才是重點。","接下來請范雲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":84,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-36-25","speakers":["莊瑞雄","陳昭姿","許宇甄","張雅琳","沈發惠","范雲","林倩綺","翁曉玲","許忠信","洪孟楷","林沛祥","李坤城","蔡其昌","吳宗憲","傅崐萁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、併案審查（一）考試院函請審議「公務人員考試法第四條、第五條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、（二）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「公務人員考試法第五條、第六條及第二十八條條文修正草\n案」案、（三）委員張宏陸等19人擬具「公務人員考試法第四條條文修正草案」案；二、審查考\n試院函請審議「公務人員任用法部分條文修正草案」案；三、併案審查（一）行政院函請審議\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（二）委員羅智強等23人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（三）委員羅廷瑋等18人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（四）委員許宇甄等25人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（五）委員林淑芬等19人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（六）委員羅美玲等16人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（七）委員張雅琳等16人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案、（八）委員陳培瑜等18人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例第三十三條及第三十六條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員賴士葆等23人擬\n具「毒品危害防制條例第四條及第六條條文修正草案」案；五、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「毒\n品危害防制條例第十一條之一條文修正草案」案；六、審查委員羅智強等18人擬具「毒品危害防\n制條例部分條文修正草案」案；七、審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第二條條文\n修正草案」案；八、審查委員張宏陸等22人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」\n案；九、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十、審\n查委員劉建國等17人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十一、審查委員陳\n冠廷等16人擬具「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十二、審查委員徐欣瑩等25人擬具\n「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十三、審查委員邱若華等17人擬具「毒品危害防制\n條例第三十一條條文修正草案」案；十四、審查委員林月琴等20人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第十\n一條之一條文修正草案」案；十五、審查委員傅崐萁等18人擬具「毒品危害防制條例第四條及第\n九條之一條文修正草案」案；十六、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「毒品危害防制條例部分條文修\n正草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156302_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}