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謝謝次長 那我接著問沈記長沈記長 在審計部所有的一個審計報告當中我們是不是曾經對所謂的食品衛生安全檢測的系統裡頭去做過審計那我比較想請教就是沈記長"},{"start":163.345,"end":176.61,"text":"在審計部的報告中看來就是重要審核意見中並沒有針對這個食品安全衛生管理法第五條的一個監測體系做過任何的審計調查我講了這樣對不對這個部分就看他的要談的定員那個範圍這個部分"},{"start":183.072,"end":184.694,"text":"我們是在整個十萬五萬裡面的問題裡面我們是發現第三方驗證的機構這個地方斷了鏈"},{"start":196.852,"end":199.115,"text":"所以我們有提出來所以說希望啊這些通通能夠啊那個第三方驗證要去補強因為第三方驗證啊這個消失的通報黃線我們看到了審計部你的報告僅指出說"},{"start":214.773,"end":232.744,"text":"部分的食品業者他沒有落實的主動通報這個食安的一個事件那食藥署他僅回覆說你要加強宣導並且要督導地方的衛生局從此以外別無他法嗎真的是這個樣子嗎這什麼事都有方法"},{"start":237.066,"end":242.25,"text":"我們顯然看到了這一次中年有的游子漢事件我們看不到方法但是我們現在他提出來我們尊重但是如果真正還是影響第一個我們要公佈他族型的不利第二個"},{"start":260.123,"end":282.969,"text":"我們會強化地方或是強化中央檢查這一部分沈記長我覺得對於這整體的一個食藥署在地方政府督導上到底出現了什麼樣的一個問題到底是業者未落實通報還是品管的驗證不足還是邊界的查驗人力的一個不足"},{"start":284.09,"end":298.13,"text":"這個食藥署在對地方政府的督導上到底有什麼問題讓地方政府可以對業者沒有通報是睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那審計部你該負的是什麼樣的一個責任因為你已經看到了問題了"},{"start":300.434,"end":309.298,"text":"我們是看到問題,這一個問題出來我們就會提醒相關的單位那這一個部分,大家如果這次出現中央、地方,整個系統上有一個問題我會全面性的做聯合審計,把這個問題抓出來"},{"start":323.884,"end":339.203,"text":"把他抓出來幫忙衛福部把這個問題解決我再跟你提到了一個台中市市政府衛生局他的一個數字的政績跟真實的一個漏洞你地方稽查的一個假象你審計部已經在112年就是審核意見裡頭"},{"start":341.946,"end":357.314,"text":"你已經特別提醒他了你的抽驗結果沒有及時的一個公開在113年你的食品業者已經兩年沒有稽查可是我們看到台中市政府食品衛生稽查的次數111年到113年"},{"start":360.356,"end":374.005,"text":"他這個稽查的次數年年的上升可是這竟然裡頭有98家的食品工廠他其實是兩年沒有派人去稽查那這個事情你要怎麼來講說你們對台中市政府的審計有做到了一個審計的一個稽查"},{"start":383.951,"end":389.813,"text":"那你的專案稽查可以不可以我會要求台中市審計處加強那我會因為這個是地方我會這次會用中央和地方聯合的方式下去把他整個找出來我是希望能夠幫衛福部或者食藥署能夠把這個問題因為這個問題牽涉很大牽涉人民的關係牽涉他的品相"},{"start":413.84,"end":426.859,"text":"我們一個專案的一個審計針對就是全國各縣市食品安全衛生做一個專案的審計有沒有辦法有 我們照委員的意思來做好 謝謝"},{"start":429.142,"end":445.156,"text":"那接著我請教教育部次長就是說沒有登錄的食安的一個黑洞我們如何保護國家未來的主人現在我們看到了就是說校園食材的登錄平台其實在這三年來"},{"start":446.277,"end":470.483,"text":"毫無進展我們看到了竟然還有91.74%是沒有登錄的一個食安的一個黑洞那這個存在在輝瑩幼兒園、市立幼兒園還有準公共那個幼兒園那三年過去了到115年登錄依然不到一成國教署的一個檢討改進形同細色次長你怎麼看待這個問題"},{"start":471.523,"end":484.816,"text":"委員我想這是112年度的決算報告那我跟委員報告在112年度的時候當時的幼兒園的時增這個平台的那個加速是8%那現在已經來到了115年的65%"},{"start":487.398,"end":500.551,"text":"那整體的幼兒園的那個時登平台的這個數字是包括公立跟私立非營利幼兒園還有這個互助式教保服務準公幼兒園已經來到74%所以說是在從這幾年我們就是因為爭取了食安的這個相關的預算所以我們也在輔導這個相關的這個私立幼兒園"},{"start":509.119,"end":522.952,"text":"你認為我現在提供給你的這是112年度的決算這個是112年的一個進度所以現在這資料是正確的就是因為省紀部有這樣子的一個指導所以我們在113年 114年 115年包括到今年我們陸續輔導所有的私立幼兒園因為私立幼兒園有的規模非常小"},{"start":530.178,"end":555.666,"text":"他人力也不足我們又沒有強制性叫他一定要來來參加這個實登平台但是我們會用輔導補助的方式所以公立幼兒園也好或者是非營利幼兒園也好或者是准公幼也好這些政府有補助的私立幼兒園幾乎百分之百都已經參加這個實登平台那私立幼兒園的部分呢確實比例比較少大概不到兩成所以我們剛才我們在了解這個"},{"start":556.446,"end":578.724,"text":"我們從112年開始我們開始逐步在輔導這些私立的幼兒園那我們也在想說怎麼樣來協助那個人力比較不足因為那個登錄的品項不是只有照片不是只有食材還有食材有很多包括這些是油還有各種的品項所以如果那私立幼兒園的這個園所編制就很少那你說一個園所三十幾個人四十幾個人二十幾個人市長"},{"start":579.644,"end":605.531,"text":"那這樣子我們也不能遺漏私立幼兒園那針對私立幼兒園的部分你們有什麼樣的準備報告委員我們這次7月1號收到這個衛福部的通知之後我們其實7月2號就完成清查然後通知各地方縣市政府那有時登平台的就是透過時登平台沒有透過時登平台清查的這些私立幼兒園我們是實體去清查一個一個聯絡那你的人力夠嗎"},{"start":606.912,"end":633.514,"text":"對我們是透過地方政府的協力合作透過地方政府那有這個就是呈現出來最大的我們今天我個人自己的一個問題萬一地方政府像你台中市政府你這麼大的一個疏漏的時候所以才會造成今天中聯油脂這麼大的一個困難你看整個中聯油脂它的工廠它的公司全部都是在台中在台中市"},{"start":634.215,"end":657.778,"text":"所以就是說我們現在也是擔心就是說地方政府的一個分工沒有辦法做到非常的一個完善所以在這裡要跟次長再一次的提醒那我們也希望那個審計長就是審計處的一個能量一起出來我們不希望這個系統性的一個崩壞讓食安的防護網垂直的一個崩塌謝謝"},{"start":659.139,"end":664.206,"text":"大家加油谢谢我们结束赖会员委员的执行接下来请刘淑彬委员"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:35+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:36+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:36+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:37+08:00","text":"請審計長，衛福部次長、教育部次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:37+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:38+08:00","text":"請審計長，及張廖政次、林政次。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:38+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:39+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:39+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:40+08:00","text":"三位早安。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:35.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:44.377000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂從案發到現在，在野黨不斷地攻擊中央，認為食安的問題中央應該要負起全責。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:44.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:22:55.226000+08:00","text":"但是我國中央與地方政府在分權的角色上，其實以我看來，地方政府才是食安問題的第一線處理機構。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:22:57.988000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:23:15.340000+08:00","text":"在野黨忽視了地方政府的重要性，把全部的責任都往中央推，如果在野黨不是憲法沒有學好的話，我認為這樣蓄意擾亂政府的施政不是笨就是可惡。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:23:15.560000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:23:19.623000+08:00","text":"我在這裡首先請教衛福部次長。是。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:23:20.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:23:45.863000+08:00","text":"根據食品安全衛生管理法第二條跟第五條，已經非常明確地規定中央的主管機關是衛福部、地方的主管機關就是縣市政府，已經寫得非常清楚，你認為這樣是不是把中央跟地方的權責分清楚了？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:23:46.103000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:23:49.205000+08:00","text":"是，在食安法有很明確地規定相關的權責。","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:23:50.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:05.234000+08:00","text":"是啊，我們從第二條來看，地方政府在這整個食安問題裡頭有一定的角色，如果地方政府召開食品安全會報的時候，是不是一定可以有效地控制？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:05.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:28.857000+08:00","text":"在這裡我請教你，食品安全衛生管理法第五條明定各級主管機關應該依科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系，在監測中如果發現有危害食品衛生安全疑慮的事件時，應該要主動查驗。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:28.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:30.560000+08:00","text":"請問這裡的監測指的是什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:34.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:39.933000+08:00","text":"事實上在食安法第四十一條就有提到相關的稽查部分是地方政府要進行稽查。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:40.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:43.294000+08:00","text":"是，所以就是地方政府要稽查？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:43.774000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:56.759000+08:00","text":"是，過去111到114年，包含今年，我們都有專案補助地方政府去做稽查，不過不同的地方政府頻次還是不太一樣，有些可能以我們定的最低標準去查，有些查得比較多次。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:57.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:24:57.379000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:24:57.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:25:00.240000+08:00","text":"我接著請問審計長，審計長，在審計部所有的審計報告當中，我們是不是曾經對所謂的食品衛生安全檢測的系統去做過審計？","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:25:00.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:25:30.089000+08:00","text":"我比較想請教審計長，從審計部的報告中看來，重要審核意見中並沒有針對食品安全衛生管理法第五條的監測體系做過任何的審計調查，我講的這樣對不對？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:25:30.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:25:52.733000+08:00","text":"這個部分就看它定的範圍，我們是在整個食安五環的問題裡面發現第三方驗證機構這個地方斷了鏈，所以我們有提出希望第三方驗證的部分要去補強，因為第三方驗證……","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:25:52.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:24.101000+08:00","text":"審計長，消失的通報防線，我們看到審計部的報告僅指出，部分食品業者沒有落實主動通報食安事件，而食藥署僅回復要加強宣導，並且要督導地方的衛生局。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:24.982000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:26.783000+08:00","text":"除此以外，別無他法嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:26.783000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:27.223000+08:00","text":"真的是這個樣子嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:27.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:27.724000+08:00","text":"做什麼事都有方法。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:27.724000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:29.895000+08:00","text":"做什麼事都有方法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:29.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:32.066000+08:00","text":"對，所以這個……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:32.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:33.887000+08:00","text":"可是我們顯然看到這次中聯油脂案事件……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:33.887000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:34.887000+08:00","text":"我們提出問題……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:34.008000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:26:34.628000+08:00","text":"我們看不到方法啊！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:26:34.648000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:00.905000+08:00","text":"看食藥署或衛福部要怎麼做，但是我們現在……他提出來，我們尊重，但是如果這個還是有影響，第一個，我們會公布它執行不力；第二個，我們會強化地方或強化中央檢查這部分。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:01.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:10.787000+08:00","text":"審計長，我覺得對於這整體的……食藥署在對地方政府督導上到底出現什麼樣的問題？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:11.127000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:13.148000+08:00","text":"是業者未落實通報？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:13.148000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:15.088000+08:00","text":"還是品管驗證不足？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:15.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:17.949000+08:00","text":"還是邊境查驗人力不足？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:19.090000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:27.963000+08:00","text":"食藥署在對地方政府督導上到底有什麼問題，讓地方政府可以對業者沒有通報是睜一隻眼閉一隻眼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:29.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:31.628000+08:00","text":"審計部，你該負的是什麼樣的責任？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:32.029000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:33.110000+08:00","text":"因為你已經看到問題了嘛。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:35.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:44.258000+08:00","text":"我們是看到問題，這個問題出來了，我們就會提醒相關的單位，關於這個部分，如果這次出現問題，中央、地方整個系統上有問題的話，我會全面性做聯合審計，把這個問題抓……","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:44.258000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:27:58.884000+08:00","text":"做全面性的聯合審計。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:27:58.884000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:28:02.889000+08:00","text":"把它抓出來，幫忙衛福部把這個問題解決。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:28:02.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:28:27.112000+08:00","text":"審計長，我再跟你提到一個臺中市政府衛生局的數字政績與真實漏洞，即地方稽查的假象，審計部已經在112年度審核意見特別提醒它，抽驗結果沒有即時公開，在113年，食品業者已經兩年沒有稽查。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:28:27.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:28:48.985000+08:00","text":"可是我們看到臺中市政府食品衛生稽查次數，111年到113年，稽查次數連年上升，可是竟然有98家食品工廠兩年沒有派員稽查，針對這個事情，你要怎麼講你們對臺中市政府的審計有做到審計的稽查？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:28:58.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:00.411000+08:00","text":"那你的專案稽查可以不可以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:00.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:04.773000+08:00","text":"我會要求臺中市審計處要加強，因為這個是地方的部分，這次我會用中央和地方聯合的方式下去做，把它整個找出來，我希望能夠幫衛福部或者食藥署把這個問題找出來，因為這個問題牽涉很大，有牽涉到人民，然後它的品項等等各方面都非常多……","quality":0.752},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:29+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:32.165000+08:00","text":"審計長，做一個專案審計……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:32.165000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:33.165000+08:00","text":"找到機制……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:32.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:39.636000+08:00","text":"針對全國各縣市食品安全衛生做一個專案審計，有沒有辦法？有。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:39.636000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:40.636000+08:00","text":"有辦法？","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:40.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:41.739000+08:00","text":"我們照委員的意思來做。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:41.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:41.859000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:44.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:29:53.771000+08:00","text":"接著我要請教教育部次長，關於沒有登錄的食安黑洞，我們如何保護國家未來的主人翁？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:29:54.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:30:15.860000+08:00","text":"現在我們看到校園食材登錄平台這三年來毫無進展，竟然還有91.74%是沒有登錄的食安黑洞，這存在於非營利幼兒園、私立幼兒園、準公共幼兒園。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:30:16.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:30:25.483000+08:00","text":"三年過去（到115年），登錄比率依然不到1成，國教署的檢討改進形同虛設，次長你怎麼看待這個問題？","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:30:26.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:30:55.551000+08:00","text":"委員，我想這是112年度的決算報告，我跟委員報告，在112年度的時候，當時幼兒園食登平台的家數是8%，現在已經來到115年的65%，整體幼兒園食登平台的數字是包括公立跟私立非營利幼兒園，還有互助式教保服務、準公共幼兒園，已經來到74%，這幾年我們就是因為爭取食安的相關預算，所以我們也在輔導相關的私立幼兒園。","quality":0.93},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:31:04.119000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:31:07.302000+08:00","text":"次長，你認為我現在提供給你的這個……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:31:07.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:31:08.263000+08:00","text":"這是112年度的決算。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:31:08.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:31:10.965000+08:00","text":"這是112年的進度，所以現在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:31:11.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:13.604000+08:00","text":"這個資料是正確的，就是因為審計部有這樣的指導，所以我們在113年、114年、包括到今年（115年），我們陸續輔導所有的私立幼兒園，因為有些私立幼兒園的規模非常小，人力也不足，我們又沒有強制性叫它一定要來參加這個食登平台，但是我們會用輔導或補助的方式，所以公立幼兒園也好，或者是非營利幼兒園也好，或者是準公幼也好，這些政府有補助的私立幼兒園，幾乎百分之百都已經參加這個食登平台，那私立幼兒園的部分，確實比例比較少，大概不到兩成，所以我們在了解之後，從112年開始逐步輔導這些私立的幼兒園，我們也在想怎麼樣來協助人力比較不足的幼兒園，因為登錄的品項不是只有照片、不是只有食材，食材有很多，包括這次的油，還有各種品項，所以如果那個私立幼兒園的園所編制就很少，可能一個園所三十幾個人、四十幾個人、二十幾個人，所以……","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:14.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:17.445000+08:00","text":"這樣我們也不能遺漏私立幼兒園。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:17.445000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:18.445000+08:00","text":"沒有，我們這次……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:17.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:20.786000+08:00","text":"針對私立幼兒園的部分，你們有什麼樣的準備？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:20.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:39.951000+08:00","text":"報告委員，我們這次7月1號收到衛福部的通知之後，7月2號就完成清查，然後通知各地方縣市政府，有食登平台的就是透過食登平台，沒有透過食登平台清查的這些私立幼兒園，我們是實體去清查，一個、一個聯絡。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:39.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:40.531000+08:00","text":"實體清查，那你的人力夠嗎？","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:41.912000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:43.753000+08:00","text":"我們是透過地方政府的協力合作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:43.873000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:32:44.634000+08:00","text":"透過地方政府？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"賴委員惠員","start":"2026-07-15T10:32:46.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:33:34.640000+08:00","text":"這就呈現出今天我個人質詢所提最大的問題，萬一地方政府，像臺中市政府有這麼大疏漏的時候，所以才會造成今天中聯油脂這麼大的困難，你看整個中聯油脂的工廠、公司全部都是在臺中市，所以我們現在也是擔心地方政府的分工沒有辦法做到非常完善，因此在這裡要再一次提醒次長，我們也希望審計長，審計部的能量要一起出來，我們不希望這個系統性崩壞讓食安防護網垂直崩塌，謝謝，大家加油！","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:33:34.640000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:33:37.684000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們結束賴惠員委員的質詢。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:33:37.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:33:39.066000+08:00","text":"接下來請劉書彬委員。","quality":0.444}]},"gazette":{"lineno":439,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時22分）謝謝主席。請審計長，衛福部次長、教育部次長。"],["主席：請審計長，及張廖政次、林政次。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：三位早安。中聯油脂從案發到現在，在野黨不斷地攻擊中央，認為食安的問題中央應該要負起全責。但是我國中央與地方政府在分權的角色上，其實以我看來，地方政府才是食安問題的第一線處理機構。在野黨忽視了地方政府的重要性，把全部的責任都往中央推，如果在野黨不是憲法沒有學好的話，我認為這樣蓄意擾亂政府的施政不是笨就是可惡。","我在這裡首先請教衛福部次長。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["賴委員惠員：根據食品安全衛生管理法第二條跟第五條，已經非常明確地規定中央的主管機關是衛福部、地方的主管機關就是縣市政府，已經寫得非常清楚，你認為這樣是不是把中央跟地方的權責分清楚了？"],["林次長靜儀：是，在食安法有很明確地規定相關的權責。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊，我們從第二條來看，地方政府在這整個食安問題裡頭有一定的角色，如果地方政府召開食品安全會報的時候，是不是一定可以有效地控制？在這裡我請教你，食品安全衛生管理法第五條明定各級主管機關應該依科學實證建立食品衛生安全監測體系，在監測中如果發現有危害食品衛生安全疑慮的事件時，應該要主動查驗。請問這裡的監測指的是什麼？"],["林次長靜儀：事實上在食安法第四十一條就有提到相關的稽查部分是地方政府要進行稽查。"],["賴委員惠員：是，所以就是地方政府要稽查？"],["林次長靜儀：是，過去111到114年，包含今年，我們都有專案補助地方政府去做稽查，不過不同的地方政府頻次還是不太一樣，有些可能以我們定的最低標準去查，有些查得比較多次。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝次長。我接著請問審計長，審計長，在審計部所有的審計報告當中，我們是不是曾經對所謂的食品衛生安全檢測的系統去做過審計？我比較想請教審計長，從審計部的報告中看來，重要審核意見中並沒有針對食品安全衛生管理法第五條的監測體系做過任何的審計調查，我講的這樣對不對？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分就看它定的範圍，我們是在整個食安五環的問題裡面發現第三方驗證機構這個地方斷了鏈，所以我們有提出希望第三方驗證的部分要去補強，因為第三方驗證……"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，消失的通報防線，我們看到審計部的報告僅指出，部分食品業者沒有落實主動通報食安事件，而食藥署僅回復要加強宣導，並且要督導地方的衛生局。除此以外，別無他法嗎？真的是這個樣子嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：做什麼事都有方法。"],["賴委員惠員：做什麼事都有方法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：對，所以這個……"],["賴委員惠員：可是我們顯然看到這次中聯油脂案事件……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們提出問題……"],["賴委員惠員：我們看不到方法啊！"],["陳審計長瑞敏：看食藥署或衛福部要怎麼做，但是我們現在……他提出來，我們尊重，但是如果這個還是有影響，第一個，我們會公布它執行不力；第二個，我們會強化地方或強化中央檢查這部分。"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，我覺得對於這整體的……食藥署在對地方政府督導上到底出現什麼樣的問題？是業者未落實通報？還是品管驗證不足？還是邊境查驗人力不足？食藥署在對地方政府督導上到底有什麼問題，讓地方政府可以對業者沒有通報是睜一隻眼閉一隻眼？審計部，你該負的是什麼樣的責任？因為你已經看到問題了嘛。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們是看到問題，這個問題出來了，我們就會提醒相關的單位，關於這個部分，如果這次出現問題，中央、地方整個系統上有問題的話，我會全面性做聯合審計，把這個問題抓……"],["賴委員惠員：做全面性的聯合審計。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：把它抓出來，幫忙衛福部把這個問題解決。"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，我再跟你提到一個臺中市政府衛生局的數字政績與真實漏洞，即地方稽查的假象，審計部已經在112年度審核意見特別提醒它，抽驗結果沒有即時公開，在113年，食品業者已經兩年沒有稽查。可是我們看到臺中市政府食品衛生稽查次數，111年到113年，稽查次數連年上升，可是竟然有98家食品工廠兩年沒有派員稽查，針對這個事情，你要怎麼講你們對臺中市政府的審計有做到審計的稽查？那你的專案稽查可以不可以……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我會要求臺中市審計處要加強，因為這個是地方的部分，這次我會用中央和地方聯合的方式下去做，把它整個找出來，我希望能夠幫衛福部或者食藥署把這個問題找出來，因為這個問題牽涉很大，有牽涉到人民，然後它的品項等等各方面都非常多……"],["賴委員惠員：審計長，做一個專案審計……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：找到機制……"],["賴委員惠員：針對全國各縣市食品安全衛生做一個專案審計，有沒有辦法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：有。"],["賴委員惠員：有辦法？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們照委員的意思來做。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。","接著我要請教教育部次長，關於沒有登錄的食安黑洞，我們如何保護國家未來的主人翁？現在我們看到校園食材登錄平台這三年來毫無進展，竟然還有91.74%是沒有登錄的食安黑洞，這存在於非營利幼兒園、私立幼兒園、準公共幼兒園。三年過去（到115年），登錄比率依然不到1成，國教署的檢討改進形同虛設，次長你怎麼看待這個問題？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我想這是112年度的決算報告，我跟委員報告，在112年度的時候，當時幼兒園食登平台的家數是8%，現在已經來到115年的65%，整體幼兒園食登平台的數字是包括公立跟私立非營利幼兒園，還有互助式教保服務、準公共幼兒園，已經來到74%，這幾年我們就是因為爭取食安的相關預算，所以我們也在輔導相關的私立幼兒園。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，你認為我現在提供給你的這個……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是112年度的決算。"],["賴委員惠員：這是112年的進度，所以現在……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個資料是正確的，就是因為審計部有這樣的指導，所以我們在113年、114年、包括到今年（115年），我們陸續輔導所有的私立幼兒園，因為有些私立幼兒園的規模非常小，人力也不足，我們又沒有強制性叫它一定要來參加這個食登平台，但是我們會用輔導或補助的方式，所以公立幼兒園也好，或者是非營利幼兒園也好，或者是準公幼也好，這些政府有補助的私立幼兒園，幾乎百分之百都已經參加這個食登平台，那私立幼兒園的部分，確實比例比較少，大概不到兩成，所以我們在了解之後，從112年開始逐步輔導這些私立的幼兒園，我們也在想怎麼樣來協助人力比較不足的幼兒園，因為登錄的品項不是只有照片、不是只有食材，食材有很多，包括這次的油，還有各種品項，所以如果那個私立幼兒園的園所編制就很少，可能一個園所三十幾個人、四十幾個人、二十幾個人，所以……"],["賴委員惠員：這樣我們也不能遺漏私立幼兒園。"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，我們這次……"],["賴委員惠員：針對私立幼兒園的部分，你們有什麼樣的準備？"],["張廖次長萬堅：報告委員，我們這次7月1號收到衛福部的通知之後，7月2號就完成清查，然後通知各地方縣市政府，有食登平台的就是透過食登平台，沒有透過食登平台清查的這些私立幼兒園，我們是實體去清查，一個、一個聯絡。"],["賴委員惠員：實體清查，那你的人力夠嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是透過地方政府的協力合作。"],["賴委員惠員：透過地方政府？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["賴委員惠員：這就呈現出今天我個人質詢所提最大的問題，萬一地方政府，像臺中市政府有這麼大疏漏的時候，所以才會造成今天中聯油脂這麼大的困難，你看整個中聯油脂的工廠、公司全部都是在臺中市，所以我們現在也是擔心地方政府的分工沒有辦法做到非常完善，因此在這裡要再一次提醒次長，我們也希望審計長，審計部的能量要一起出來，我們不希望這個系統性崩壞讓食安防護網垂直崩塌，謝謝，大家加油！"],["主席：謝謝，我們結束賴惠員委員的質詢。","接下來請劉書彬委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}