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要預防性的下架法制化要及早的介入防止危害擴大"},{"start":171.913,"end":180.657,"text":"這都是過去食藥署制定的食品安全衛生預防性的下架原則但過去都是原則它的法律位階是不足的一般的民眾他不需要是食安專家他都知道只要有問題應該是全部都要下架才對但是為什麼原民對於民進黨政府這次處理的不滿"},{"start":197.085,"end":211.444,"text":"20%有含油脂的下架所以會造成未來可能有含油的有問題的還在食品架上這就是原民對於現在食品安全不信任最主要的原因是原民對於現在民進黨政府"},{"start":212.372,"end":235.288,"text":"底下食安信心完全崩潰最主要的理由我講到現在市長你同意嗎報告委員其實剛剛提到這個過去的原則我們會再做一些調整跟修正那大概7月4號當天其實就已經找專家所以那個20person當然專家這邊給我們這樣的意見但是後來民眾對於專家的意見的反應不同所以我們後來做預防性下架"},{"start":237.366,"end":260.339,"text":"民進黨政府執政邁入第十年食安五環每次常常在破洞食安五環常常在破洞你早就應該不需要我剛剛一直強調不需要是學者專食安學者專家一聽到有問題應該是全面先下架這就是讓人民看到政府的魄力跟決心"},{"start":262.134,"end":288.343,"text":"這也會讓業者 所有的業者上井發條我們食藥署的署長在2019年發表了一篇論文食安要回到劑量跟曝露量零減出但在這一次食藥署拿來當成不必要全面下架的理由其實我覺得這個就是民眾在整件事情當中對於整個衛福部處理的不滿對於民進黨政府對於食安處理不滿最主要的理由因為"},{"start":289.923,"end":314.931,"text":"署長在長期在學術上用劑量來去決定就是劑量決定毒性但是面對現在所謂的一級致癌物到底說應該用最嚴格的標準是我的孩子我的家人哪怕是吃到0.00001我都不要他吃到任何一點致癌在烹調等等的過程中不是只有油的源頭會有這個事實上在烹調高溫蒸煮都會產生本皮"},{"start":316.298,"end":335.653,"text":"這就是為什麼大家都非常重視實案的理由但是政府應該把關而未把關應注意而未注意這就是政府的責任不是嗎這個部分我們當然目前對於這些相關的有品製程廠他的HACC他的標準跟製程會做一些嚴格要求我知道你要講什麼因為昨天院長已經都講了但是"},{"start":336.474,"end":358.432,"text":"包括我們食品雲花了數十億元來處理但是仍舊在第一時間我們沒有辦法追溯到以前食品雲說非追不可但是最後處理的是到底源頭來自哪裡到底上下游廠商有哪些或者影響到的相關的食品到底範圍擴到多大"},{"start":360.393,"end":372.564,"text":"照理說有食品雲應該很快 啪啪啪電腦一出來哪些有可能中聯的上下有發票的跟他有進出貨的很快就可以查出來但是我們看到整件事情處理過程當中食藥署事實是動用許多的稽查人員去追我們不是AI政府有花食品雲數十億元嗎"},{"start":382.179,"end":410.622,"text":"到最後是所有的食安的所有的稽查人員像消防員一樣到處四處救火這就是每次發生食安事件的時候我們都說是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳照理說是一個電腦出來一個電腦出來跟中聯有關的上下游去追查檢調去追查到發票他的進出貨單照理說全部都可以看得出來甚至下面都可以追得出來才對中聯泰山福茂福壽這邊事實上在食品雲的相關的追蹤都有"},{"start":412.294,"end":434.406,"text":"報告委員食品雲裡面包括五大部分那其中有一個就是追溯追蹤那追溯追蹤裡面我們有要求這些業者大的業者是要進入這個系統去做申報他的原料來源跟產品的流向那這次的事件裡面中聯泰山福壽等這些業者確實有在這些資料所以我們在第一線是也可以從那邊6月30號到現在7月15號"},{"start":438.547,"end":452.598,"text":"所有有問題的可能有問題的是不是都在都已經下架這是我第一個問題第二個問題你們現在要修那個食安五環2.0版要修食安法那我就有幾個問題要請問"},{"start":454.813,"end":483.66,"text":"人民會問說那未來幾天如果再發生事件的話是不是一個星期或三天就可以全部下架有沒有這樣的信心 次長委員我們當然希望是這樣的事情你不要跟我講希望他的前頭原料他前頭的評管本來就應該要能夠有製程上的標準今天從過去從事發到現在許多委員會已經排了專報左院長昨天也講了你們也要修食安五環2.0要修食安法"},{"start":484.62,"end":499.852,"text":"以後如果再發生事情幾天可以全部下架幾天中央可以知道甚至通報地方下去抽查去執行一個星期 三天 兩天 聽盡管理怎麼去做處理"},{"start":504.608,"end":527.186,"text":"我們當然在未來的經濟的方向希望能夠避免發生這一類的事情必須做所謂下架那因為下架的事情影響不論是對民眾或對廠商都是非常複雜跟麻煩的事情那所以這一次的事情政府不應該怕麻煩不是 我是說人民我們不要讓人民麻煩 碰到事情人民可以讓政府依照你有的手邊的工具跟法律的手段去處理但是我要問的是"},{"start":530.028,"end":550.562,"text":"幾天你修食安法內容我不管你怎麼修2.0 3.0 4.0以後當有問題被通報的時候幾天可以全部下架我們的目標是要第一時間就掌握然後讓這些產品不要上架類似像第一時間你也當過民意黨你也坐在這個位置上你也站在這個位置上質詢過"},{"start":552.523,"end":560.009,"text":"到底是一個星期還是三天 還是兩天不要告訴我第一時間因為你們都會講第一時間下架我只問你未來未來當再發生有食品安全事件的時候你是不是會第一時間就知道修了2.0版本之後食安法你會不會第一時間就知道那未來如果再發生事情 知道之後是不是三天就全部下架"},{"start":578.823,"end":589.749,"text":"委員我們這一次光是還沒有修這次六月三十知道之後我們在兩天之內就要求七月二號七月一號開始我們就要你不用跟我講你不要跟我拖時間我不要跟你吵架我是真的未來的事情未來的事件修了食安法修了食安五環二點零之後"},{"start":598.375,"end":619.189,"text":"未來24小時之內有機會通報甚至是發生重大事件的時候是不是一天之內或兩天之內或36小時之內會公佈所有的流向你這樣子修法才有意義嘛你今天在這邊排專報才有意義嘛這次的修法就是朝向這個方向能夠在24小時之內得到這些資訊廠商要通報不然的話廠商這次他delay了兩個多月"},{"start":621.111,"end":634.844,"text":"36小時之內有沒有機會全部下架我覺得這些都是要交代的清清楚楚我們今天花那麼多時間在這邊質詢再修食安法2.0才有意義要不然的話修的都是假的沒有意義"},{"start":635.865,"end":652.8,"text":"都靠業者自主管理政府現在有修法的工具跟手段沒有精進的手法你沒有破例告訴民眾說以後有問題我是24小時我只要我接到我24小時全部都讓他下架你沒有這樣的破例的話10N5還2.0你還是繼續破我們會跟地方政府一起來合作"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:45:58.299000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:45:58.499000+08:00","text":"邀請林靜儀次長、陳審計長。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:45:58.539000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:45:58.720000+08:00","text":"邀請林次長跟陳審計長上臺質詢。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:45:58.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:46:39.076000+08:00","text":"靜儀次長，人民其實最害怕的不只是食品安全出問題，最害怕的是政府知道得比業者慢、通知得比媒體還要晚，甚至在處理的過程當中，所謂的風險溝通、科學依據到底足不足夠？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:46:39.076000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:46:44.941000+08:00","text":"處理的過程，20%含油脂的下架，處理得是荒腔走板！","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:46:46.615000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:46:50.896000+08:00","text":"對於致癌物，所有的民眾，我能不吃的話我當然都不要吃。是。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:46:52.056000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:46:53.016000+08:00","text":"我想你非常清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:46:55.657000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:46:58.438000+08:00","text":"20%含油脂的那個門檻是在委員會訂的嗎？","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:46:58.438000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:05.279000+08:00","text":"那個是在106年的食安專家諮詢會議，他們下架的其中一個討論。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:05.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:06.739000+08:00","text":"這是一個專家會議大家制定的標準。","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:07.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:07.500000+08:00","text":"是，因為我們後續會做檢討。","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:10.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:24.884000+08:00","text":"那我就請審計長，我看到你今天在業務報告裡面也提到幾個問題點，包括食藥署推動食品業者自主衛生管理，我覺得這個可能有問題，未來要調整。","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:26.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:42.717000+08:00","text":"我看到你的幾點建議，包括卓院長昨天講的，食安五環有調整的空間，我們要修食安法，可見很多都是制度面的我們要再做調整，你同不同意？同意。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:44.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:45.399000+08:00","text":"林靜儀次長，你同不同意？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:46.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:47.500000+08:00","text":"是，我們絕對制度面調整。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:47.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:47:57.428000+08:00","text":"好，可見事情發生到現在，從6月30日到現在，很多就是制度面的調整。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:47:58.449000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:48:20.638000+08:00","text":"當然制度面調整之後，執行面就會跟著修正，包括要不要密集檢查、中央跟地方如何分工得更細一點，所以是制度面有相當大的問題，所有的民眾、朝野大家都認為，食安法要修法是制度面的問題。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:48:24.722000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:48:32.386000+08:00","text":"食藥署今天是副署長來，為什麼我們邀請食藥署署長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:48:32.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:48:39.089000+08:00","text":"因為他自己也是食安專家的學者，過去的論文也寫了非常多，但非常遺憾今天食藥署署長沒來。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:48:39.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:48:53.495000+08:00","text":"包括過去強調有暫時性處分、要預防性下架、法制化、要及早介入防止危害擴大，這都是過去食藥署制定的食品安全衛生的預防性下架原則，但過去都是原則，它的法律位階是不足的。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:48:53.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:48:56.657000+08:00","text":"一般民眾不需要是食安專家，他都知道只要有問題應該是全部都下架才對，但是為什麼人民對於民進黨政府這次的處理不滿？","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:13.085000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:49:19.934000+08:00","text":"20%含有油脂的下架，會造成在未來可能含有的、有問題的還在食品架上！","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:20.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:49:32.635000+08:00","text":"這就是人民對於現在食品安全不信任的最主要原因、是人民對於現在民進黨政府底下食安的信心完全崩潰的最主要理由。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:33.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:49:36.858000+08:00","text":"我講到現在，次長，你同意嗎？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:36.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:49:41.021000+08:00","text":"報告委員，剛剛提到過去的原則我們會再做一些調整跟修正。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:42.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:49:51.268000+08:00","text":"在7月4日當天其實就已經找專家，所以那20%，當然專家給我們這樣的意見，但是民眾對於專家意見的反應不同，所以我們後來做預防性下架。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:49:53.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:50:10.836000+08:00","text":"民進黨政府執政邁入第10年，食安五環常常破洞，你早就應該……我剛剛一直強調不需要是食安學者專家，一聽到有問題應該是全面先下架！","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:50:12.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:50:21.495000+08:00","text":"這就是讓人民看到政府的魄力跟決心、這也會讓所有的業者上緊發條。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:50:21.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:50:43.762000+08:00","text":"食藥署署長在2019年發表了一篇論文，食安要回到劑量跟暴露量零檢出，但在這一次食藥署拿來當成不必要全面下架的理由，我覺得這個就是在整件事情當中，民眾對於整個衛福部處理的不滿、對於民進黨政府及對於食安處理不滿的最主要理由。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:50:44.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:51:03.388000+08:00","text":"因為署長長期在學術上用劑量來決定，就是劑量決定毒性，但是面對現在所謂的一級致癌物，照理說應該用最嚴格的標準，是我的孩子、我的家人，哪怕是吃到0.000001，我都不要他吃到任何一點……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:51:04.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:51:10.571000+08:00","text":"委員，在烹調等等過程中，不是只有油的源頭會有這一個，事實上在烹調時高溫蒸煮都會產生苯駢芘。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:51:12.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:51:21.045000+08:00","text":"這就是為什麼大家都非常重視食安的理由，但是政府應該把關而未把關、應注意而未注意，這就是政府的責任，不是嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:51:21.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:51:28.611000+08:00","text":"這個部分當然我們目前對於相關的油品製程廠，他的HACCP、標準跟製程，我們會做一些嚴格的要求。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:51:28.631000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:51:54.412000+08:00","text":"我的時間有限，我知道你要講什麼，因為昨天院長已經都講了，但是包括我們食品雲花了數十億元處理，仍舊在第一時間沒有辦法追溯到……以前食品雲、花了幾十億說非追不可，但是最後處理的，到底源頭來自哪裡、到底上下游廠商有哪些，或者影響到的相關食品到底範圍擴大到多大？","quality":0.896},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:51:56.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:52:05.742000+08:00","text":"照理說有食品雲應該很快、啪啪啪地電腦一下子就出來，哪些是有可能的，中聯上下游有發票的、跟他有進出貨的很快就可以查出來。","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:52:05.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:52:08.564000+08:00","text":"但是我們看到整件事情的處理過程當中，食藥署甚至動用許多稽查人員去追，我們不是AI政府、食品雲有花數十億元嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:52:18.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:52:29.668000+08:00","text":"到最後是所有食安的稽查人員像消防員一樣四處救火，所以每次發生食安事件的時候我們都說是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:52:29.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:52:42.258000+08:00","text":"照理說是一個電腦一下子就出來，跟中聯有關的上下游，檢調去追查他的發票、他的進出貨單，照理說全部都可以看得出來，甚至下面的都可以追得出來才對。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:52:42.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:52:46.602000+08:00","text":"中聯、泰山、福懋、福壽這邊，事實上在食品雲的相關追蹤都有。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"張副署長淑貞","start":"2026-07-15T10:52:48.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:02.482000+08:00","text":"報告委員，食品雲裡面包括五大部分，其中有一個就是追溯追蹤，我們有要求這些大的業者進入系統申報他的原料來源跟產品流向。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張副署長淑貞","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:03.843000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:09.806000+08:00","text":"在這次的事件裡面，中聯、泰山、福壽等業者確實有這些資料，所以我們在第一線也可以從那邊……","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:09.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:20.392000+08:00","text":"6月30日到現在，現在是7月15日，所有有問題的、可能有問題的，是不是都已經下架？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:20.852000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:21.733000+08:00","text":"這是我的第一個問題。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:21.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:39.435000+08:00","text":"第二個問題，你們現在要修食安五環2.0版、要修食安法，那我就有幾個問題要請問，人民會問：那未來幾天如果再發生事件的話，是不是1個星期或3天就可以全部下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:40.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:41.996000+08:00","text":"有沒有這樣的信心，次長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:42.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:43.676000+08:00","text":"我們當然希望，這樣的事情……","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:43.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:44.616000+08:00","text":"你不要跟我講「希望」。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:45.156000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:53:49.537000+08:00","text":"他前頭的原料，他前頭的品管本來就應該要能夠有製程上的標準。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:53:52.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:06.565000+08:00","text":"不是，從事發到現在，許多委員會已經排了專報，卓院長昨天也講了，你們也要修食安五環2.0、要修食安法，以後如果再發生事情，幾天可以全部下架？","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:07.245000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:13.010000+08:00","text":"要幾天中央就可以知道，甚至通報地方下去抽、去執行？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:13.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:14.871000+08:00","text":"1個星期、3天、2天……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:14.871000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:15.871000+08:00","text":"資料上其實是地方應該要先知道。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:14.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:15.832000+08:00","text":"邊境管理怎麼做處理？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:20.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:26.132000+08:00","text":"我們當然希望，未來的精進方向希望能夠避免發生這一類的事情，必須做所謂的下架。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:26.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:32.237000+08:00","text":"因為下架的事情所影響的，不論是對民眾或對廠商都是非常複雜跟麻煩的事情，所以這一次的事情、這一次中聯的油……","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:32.678000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:34.539000+08:00","text":"政府不應該怕麻煩。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:35.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:36.661000+08:00","text":"我是說人民，我們不要讓人民麻煩。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:36.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:42.786000+08:00","text":"碰到事情，人民可以讓政府依照你手邊有的工具跟法律手段去處理。","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:42.786000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:43.786000+08:00","text":"對，我們不想要讓人民面對這些……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:42.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:46.028000+08:00","text":"但我要問的是，幾天？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:46.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:55.755000+08:00","text":"你修食安法的內容，我不管你怎麼修，2.0、3.0、4.0，以後當有問題被通報的時候，幾天可以全部下架？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:55.755000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:54:56.776000+08:00","text":"幾天你可以掌握？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:54:56.776000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:00.858000+08:00","text":"我們的目標是要第一時間就掌握，然後讓這些產品不要上架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:00.858000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:02.219000+08:00","text":"第一時間？","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:02.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:10.084000+08:00","text":"類似像第一時間，你當過民意代表、你也站在這個位置上質詢過，到底是1個星期還是3天？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:10.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.085000+08:00","text":"還是2天？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.085000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:12.085000+08:00","text":"委員，我們再儘速……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.705000+08:00","text":"你不要告訴我「第一時間」！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.705000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:12.705000+08:00","text":"是，中聯……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.846000+08:00","text":"你們都會講第一時間下架……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.846000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:12.846000+08:00","text":"委員，這次中聯的案子6月30日我們得知後，7月1號我們就要求下架……","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:11.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:13.587000+08:00","text":"我只問你未來再發生食品安全事件的時候，你是不是會第一時間就知道？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:13.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:14.668000+08:00","text":"食安法修了2.0版本之後，你會不會第一時間就知道？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:14.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:15.989000+08:00","text":"未來如果再發生事情，知道之後是不是3天就全部下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:34.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:39.366000+08:00","text":"委員，這一次的事件，光是還沒有修法，6月30日知道之後，我們在2天之內就要求……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:42.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:43.348000+08:00","text":"你不要跟我講這些，你不要拖時間……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:43.348000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:44.348000+08:00","text":"7月1號得知，我們7月2號就要求3家廠商再加一全部下架。","quality":0.143},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:43.788000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:45.729000+08:00","text":"我是問你未來的事件，修了食安五環2.0之後……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:45.729000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:54.375000+08:00","text":"我們當然希望動作可以更快。","quality":0},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:54.375000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:55:58.437000+08:00","text":"是不是未來24小時之內會通報？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:55:58.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:04.882000+08:00","text":"甚至發生重大事件的時候，是不是1天之內或2天之內，或36小時之內會公布所有的流向？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:05.963000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:08.665000+08:00","text":"這樣子修法才有意義，今天排專報才有意義嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:08.825000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:15.169000+08:00","text":"這次的修法就是朝向這個方向，能夠在24小時之內得到這些資訊，廠商要通報，不然的話，廠商這次delay了兩個多月。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:17.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:19.173000+08:00","text":"36小時之內有沒有機會全部下架？","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:19.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:46.898000+08:00","text":"我覺得這些都要交代的清清楚楚，我們今天花那麼多時間在這邊質詢，再來修食安法2.0才有意義，不然的話，修的都是假的，沒有意義，都靠業者自主管理，政府現在有修法的工具跟手段，卻沒有精進的手法，你沒有魄力告訴民眾以後有問題，只要我接到消息，24小時內全部都讓它下架，你沒有這樣的魄力的話，食安五環2.0，你還是繼續破，一點用都沒有。","quality":0.858},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:47.318000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:48.780000+08:00","text":"我們會跟地方政府一起來合作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李委員彥秀","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:49.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:50.280000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:50.580000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:54.008571+08:00","text":"謝謝李彥秀召委，官員請回座。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:54.308571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:55.451429+08:00","text":"休息5分鐘。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:55.751429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:56.894286+08:00","text":"休息（10時56分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:57.194286+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:56:58.908571+08:00","text":"繼續開會（11時3分）","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席（李委員彥秀）","start":"2026-07-15T10:56:59.208571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T10:57:01.780000+08:00","text":"接下來請顏寬恒委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時45分）邀請林靜儀次長、陳審計長。"],["主席：邀請林次長跟陳審計長上臺質詢。"],["李委員彥秀：靜儀次長，人民其實最害怕的不只是食品安全出問題，最害怕的是政府知道得比業者慢、通知得比媒體還要晚，甚至在處理的過程當中，所謂的風險溝通、科學依據到底足不足夠？處理的過程，20%含油脂的下架，處理得是荒腔走板！對於致癌物，所有的民眾，我能不吃的話我當然都不要吃。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我想你非常清楚。20%含油脂的那個門檻是在委員會訂的嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：那個是在106年的食安專家諮詢會議，他們下架的其中一個討論。"],["李委員彥秀：這是一個專家會議大家制定的標準。"],["林次長靜儀：是，因為我們後續會做檢討。"],["李委員彥秀：那我就請審計長，我看到你今天在業務報告裡面也提到幾個問題點，包括食藥署推動食品業者自主衛生管理，我覺得這個可能有問題，未來要調整。我看到你的幾點建議，包括卓院長昨天講的，食安五環有調整的空間，我們要修食安法，可見很多都是制度面的我們要再做調整，你同不同意？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：同意。"],["李委員彥秀：林靜儀次長，你同不同意？"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們絕對制度面調整。"],["李委員彥秀：好，可見事情發生到現在，從6月30日到現在，很多就是制度面的調整。當然制度面調整之後，執行面就會跟著修正，包括要不要密集檢查、中央跟地方如何分工得更細一點，所以是制度面有相當大的問題，所有的民眾、朝野大家都認為，食安法要修法是制度面的問題。","食藥署今天是副署長來，為什麼我們邀請食藥署署長？因為他自己也是食安專家的學者，過去的論文也寫了非常多，但非常遺憾今天食藥署署長沒來。包括過去強調有暫時性處分、要預防性下架、法制化、要及早介入防止危害擴大，這都是過去食藥署制定的食品安全衛生的預防性下架原則，但過去都是原則，它的法律位階是不足的。一般民眾不需要是食安專家，他都知道只要有問題應該是全部都下架才對，但是為什麼人民對於民進黨政府這次的處理不滿？20%含有油脂的下架，會造成在未來可能含有的、有問題的還在食品架上！這就是人民對於現在食品安全不信任的最主要原因、是人民對於現在民進黨政府底下食安的信心完全崩潰的最主要理由。","我講到現在，次長，你同意嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，剛剛提到過去的原則我們會再做一些調整跟修正。在7月4日當天其實就已經找專家，所以那20%，當然專家給我們這樣的意見，但是民眾對於專家意見的反應不同，所以我們後來做預防性下架。"],["李委員彥秀：民進黨政府執政邁入第10年，食安五環常常破洞，你早就應該……我剛剛一直強調不需要是食安學者專家，一聽到有問題應該是全面先下架！這就是讓人民看到政府的魄力跟決心、這也會讓所有的業者上緊發條。食藥署署長在2019年發表了一篇論文，食安要回到劑量跟暴露量零檢出，但在這一次食藥署拿來當成不必要全面下架的理由，我覺得這個就是在整件事情當中，民眾對於整個衛福部處理的不滿、對於民進黨政府及對於食安處理不滿的最主要理由。因為署長長期在學術上用劑量來決定，就是劑量決定毒性，但是面對現在所謂的一級致癌物，照理說應該用最嚴格的標準，是我的孩子、我的家人，哪怕是吃到0.000001，我都不要他吃到任何一點……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，在烹調等等過程中，不是只有油的源頭會有這一個，事實上在烹調時高溫蒸煮都會產生苯駢芘。"],["李委員彥秀：這就是為什麼大家都非常重視食安的理由，但是政府應該把關而未把關、應注意而未注意，這就是政府的責任，不是嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：這個部分當然我們目前對於相關的油品製程廠，他的HACCP、標準跟製程，我們會做一些嚴格的要求。"],["李委員彥秀：我的時間有限，我知道你要講什麼，因為昨天院長已經都講了，但是包括我們食品雲花了數十億元處理，仍舊在第一時間沒有辦法追溯到……以前食品雲、花了幾十億說非追不可，但是最後處理的，到底源頭來自哪裡、到底上下游廠商有哪些，或者影響到的相關食品到底範圍擴大到多大？照理說有食品雲應該很快、啪啪啪地電腦一下子就出來，哪些是有可能的，中聯上下游有發票的、跟他有進出貨的很快就可以查出來。但是我們看到整件事情的處理過程當中，食藥署甚至動用許多稽查人員去追，我們不是AI政府、食品雲有花數十億元嗎？到最後是所有食安的稽查人員像消防員一樣四處救火，所以每次發生食安事件的時候我們都說是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳！照理說是一個電腦一下子就出來，跟中聯有關的上下游，檢調去追查他的發票、他的進出貨單，照理說全部都可以看得出來，甚至下面的都可以追得出來才對。"],["林次長靜儀：中聯、泰山、福懋、福壽這邊，事實上在食品雲的相關追蹤都有。"],["張副署長淑貞：報告委員，食品雲裡面包括五大部分，其中有一個就是追溯追蹤，我們有要求這些大的業者進入系統申報他的原料來源跟產品流向。在這次的事件裡面，中聯、泰山、福壽等業者確實有這些資料，所以我們在第一線也可以從那邊……"],["李委員彥秀：6月30日到現在，現在是7月15日，所有有問題的、可能有問題的，是不是都已經下架？這是我的第一個問題。","第二個問題，你們現在要修食安五環2.0版、要修食安法，那我就有幾個問題要請問，人民會問：那未來幾天如果再發生事件的話，是不是1個星期或3天就可以全部下架？有沒有這樣的信心，次長？"],["林次長靜儀：我們當然希望，這樣的事情……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要跟我講「希望」。"],["林次長靜儀：他前頭的原料，他前頭的品管本來就應該要能夠有製程上的標準。"],["李委員彥秀：不是，從事發到現在，許多委員會已經排了專報，卓院長昨天也講了，你們也要修食安五環2.0、要修食安法，以後如果再發生事情，幾天可以全部下架？要幾天中央就可以知道，甚至通報地方下去抽、去執行？1個星期、3天、2天……"],["林次長靜儀：資料上其實是地方應該要先知道。"],["李委員彥秀：邊境管理怎麼做處理？"],["林次長靜儀：我們當然希望，未來的精進方向希望能夠避免發生這一類的事情，必須做所謂的下架。因為下架的事情所影響的，不論是對民眾或對廠商都是非常複雜跟麻煩的事情，所以這一次的事情、這一次中聯的油……"],["李委員彥秀：政府不應該怕麻煩。"],["林次長靜儀：我是說人民，我們不要讓人民麻煩。"],["李委員彥秀：碰到事情，人民可以讓政府依照你手邊有的工具跟法律手段去處理。"],["林次長靜儀：對，我們不想要讓人民面對這些……"],["李委員彥秀：但我要問的是，幾天？你修食安法的內容，我不管你怎麼修，2.0、3.0、4.0，以後當有問題被通報的時候，幾天可以全部下架？幾天你可以掌握？"],["林次長靜儀：我們的目標是要第一時間就掌握，然後讓這些產品不要上架。"],["李委員彥秀：第一時間？類似像第一時間，你當過民意代表、你也站在這個位置上質詢過，到底是1個星期還是3天？還是2天？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我們再儘速……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要告訴我「第一時間」！"],["林次長靜儀：是，中聯……"],["李委員彥秀：你們都會講第一時間下架……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，這次中聯的案子6月30日我們得知後，7月1號我們就要求下架……"],["李委員彥秀：我只問你未來再發生食品安全事件的時候，你是不是會第一時間就知道？食安法修了2.0版本之後，你會不會第一時間就知道？未來如果再發生事情，知道之後是不是3天就全部下架？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，這一次的事件，光是還沒有修法，6月30日知道之後，我們在2天之內就要求……"],["李委員彥秀：你不要跟我講這些，你不要拖時間……"],["林次長靜儀：7月1號得知，我們7月2號就要求3家廠商再加一全部下架。"],["李委員彥秀：我是問你未來的事件，修了食安五環2.0之後……"],["林次長靜儀：我們當然希望動作可以更快。"],["李委員彥秀：是不是未來24小時之內會通報？甚至發生重大事件的時候，是不是1天之內或2天之內，或36小時之內會公布所有的流向？這樣子修法才有意義，今天排專報才有意義嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：這次的修法就是朝向這個方向，能夠在24小時之內得到這些資訊，廠商要通報，不然的話，廠商這次delay了兩個多月。"],["李委員彥秀：36小時之內有沒有機會全部下架？我覺得這些都要交代的清清楚楚，我們今天花那麼多時間在這邊質詢，再來修食安法2.0才有意義，不然的話，修的都是假的，沒有意義，都靠業者自主管理，政府現在有修法的工具跟手段，卻沒有精進的手法，你沒有魄力告訴民眾以後有問題，只要我接到消息，24小時內全部都讓它下架，你沒有這樣的魄力的話，食安五環2.0，你還是繼續破，一點用都沒有。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會跟地方政府一起來合作。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀召委，官員請回座。","休息5分鐘。","休息（10時56分）","繼續開會（11時3分）"],["主席（李委員彥秀）：接下來請顏寬恒委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}