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吃下去"},{"start":281.138,"end":299.948,"text":"這些人可不可以申請國賠委員先補充一個事情這個部分本便皮是在整個製造過程中那他可能因為高溫他的品管不好產生所以事實上目前我們對於中聯這一家業者認為他的品管出問題我們要做後續他品管上面的要求這是第一個事情跟委員說明"},{"start":300.928,"end":328.854,"text":"第二個事情這個本田皮這個物質不是添加物它是在我們一般日常飲食油炸製成烹煮甚至烘烤的過程都會產生那甚至包含抽煙等等行為都有可能會有都會暴露在這個物質裡面所以再跟委員補充就是說這個物質事實上就是我們對於中聯或相關的油品這一次我們訂的這個我們所訂的這個標準主要的目的是去看它在它的產製成的過程中它沒有符合產製成的標準"},{"start":331.043,"end":335.641,"text":"這個是不是自然有委員 這個部分 我們有本身不是"},{"start":337.216,"end":362.291,"text":"但是我們的食品有本身不是不是 委員這不就吃了會致癌嗎這一個本便品它當然來 你旁邊那個說吃了不會致癌來 我請吃了不會致癌是不是那你就跟國人講啊你就拿一瓶沙拉油或者是有問題的油你當場當著全國人民的面前你喝下去啊委員 重點光是這樣喝油對心血管就很不好我還是要提醒"},{"start":363.391,"end":385.661,"text":"不論是哪一家你怎麼樣的對得起這些小朋友或者是沒有辦法表達的老齡人這一次的郵品這個當然它超過我們所設定的標準所以在中聯的這一批郵品包含不論是我們現在驗出有超標或沒有驗出超標的還沒有驗到超標的這29批4月到6月我們全部都現在都是預防性下架"},{"start":386.877,"end":410.599,"text":"所以你現在預防性下架的意思是說這些有問題的油是可以吃還是不可以吃有問題的這些我們因為它超過我們的標準所以我們把它下架了但是容我稍微說明一下即使今天是一個符合標準的油拿去油炸油炸出來的這個它的本田皮的量就非常非常的高所以站在食品我們講的健康的立場上來講"},{"start":412.501,"end":426.657,"text":"我們在這邊管理的是它前端製程必須符合標準但是在日常生活各位 尤其台灣我們如果是大火烘烤或者是油炸的飲食裡面本田皮的量事實上都一直存在在食品裡面好 那下一步"},{"start":431.352,"end":446.478,"text":"市長對於國小兒童還有這些教育相關的機構他沒地方選擇他就是在學校營養午餐也好或者準備的膳食也好他就選擇就是要吃"},{"start":448.419,"end":464.297,"text":"那這個問題已經有很多的學校都面臨這樣的問題那接下來怎麼做跟委員報告說其實我們在7月1號接到食藥署通告之後我們就開始透過那個食安登錄平台學校現在大概99%都在"},{"start":466.139,"end":491.438,"text":"這個食材登錄平台裡面去撈出1385項然後第二天7月2號馬上就通知地方縣市政府做清查就是用到當時查出來那15項的那個品牌的油那開始撈 撈到現在已經大概50項有50項公布的那個油已經有260個學校的七個縣市那這些人吃了多久我們"},{"start":492.559,"end":514.885,"text":"現在這個吃多久是我們是依照食藥署公布的我們來撈撈到的是有使用的部分有的那個根據食藥署公布的那個品項它是四月初製造的五種品項我們是用那個資料來撈的這樣算一算大概吃多久吃多久"},{"start":517.885,"end":529.856,"text":"兩個月左右兩個月啊那如果一個小朋友譬如說一年級二年級的學生他就這樣一直吃一直吃那吃了兩個月對身體會不會造成什麼樣的損害"},{"start":530.686,"end":552.531,"text":"會不會照什麼我們會跟衛福部這邊一起來追蹤啦就是說他的那個不要追蹤啊衛福部在對你旁邊啊對我們以後相關的那個林次長還是這個因為小朋友這邊我們小朋友如果一二年級啊他已經吃了兩個月兩個月可能吃了一瓶那麼大的一個小朋友如果兩個月吃這麼多油我想不是好事"},{"start":553.573,"end":579.236,"text":"可是他已經吃了啊不可能小朋友兩個月真的沒有道理吃這麼多油那大概吃多少沒有一瓶有沒有吃到半瓶委員重點是他的烹煮過程相關的食品這裡面有多樣的原因那我們現在在食藥署這邊我們為什麼這一批油我們會讓他要下架要罰第一個是因為他延遲通報第二個是他檢驗上面他不合格他還讓他上架"},{"start":580.338,"end":586.195,"text":"我問你啊 這個事情已經發生好幾天了啦那 比如說今天 今天是幾月幾號"},{"start":587.799,"end":595.904,"text":"7月15號今天7月15號還有沒有學童繼續的吃這一批有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的有毒的"},{"start":616.209,"end":641.25,"text":"現在你都下架了但是生活還是要過油還是要吃這批油是國內公油的大宗這批油沒有了以後那你要叫這些食品業者加什麼油所以我們現在我們在這段時間當然也先請地方政府都確認過另外三家大的油廠另外幾家大的煉油廠他們的產品目前是OK"},{"start":641.91,"end":668.741,"text":"那當然我們也正在啟動就是說因為現在這29批裡面有5批確定超標所以那個是不可能再上來了那另外24批預防性下架的假設有可信的檢體那我們後續會做一些檢查為了國人的健康啊你們喔一定要酸井螺絲要嚴正的面對這件事情不要跟全民為敵做得到嗎大家都一起在吃這些油啊"},{"start":669.281,"end":695.681,"text":"那你要站在人民的立場而不是站在這些業者的立場沒有必要站在業者的立場真的嗎沒有必要啊為什麼要站在業者的立場那你們回去包括在場的這些官員你們回去查查看有沒有任何的官員跟中聯有吃過一頓飯或有認識有包庇委員你這講的是包含地方政府嗎因為地方政府可能跟他們比較近你查你查你就公佈啊"},{"start":697.47,"end":713.104,"text":"你先查中央政府有沒有啊對啊 中央這邊我們其實到我們連他們董事長姓什麼我都不知道你們下面的人那麼多報告委員 相關我還在提醒10號署裡面有多少員工委員我再提醒一下10號署有多少員工1500"},{"start":717.668,"end":735.741,"text":"一千五百個 你敢保證一千五百個你的嘴巴裡面講出來說你跟他都不熟一千五百個跟他們都不熟啊委員我知道你要問的是利益關係那如果其實還是要強調那你是要調查啊我還是要強調依照食安法定期的稽查是必然政府你要叫我們相信你可是你要叫我們相信一千五百個人嗎"},{"start":736.782,"end":750.828,"text":"如果這樣我會建議是包含地方政府全部都要了解你查啊你查啊我當然支持查啊把事情釐清清楚啊對不對罪口或有所謂把他抓出來啊開玩笑拿全民的這個安全來做賭注啊沒有任何一點空間啊現在檢調已經在查了最後那個主席長"},{"start":761.102,"end":781.54,"text":"這個油不能吃那個油不能吃那其他可以吃的油會不會漲價對整個消費者的影響是在哪裡這要看他供應的情形如果有缺貨就會漲價這樣子或者是說他缺貨買不到那就會有一些你注意一下看看有沒有業者趁機那個烘台物價謝謝"},{"start":786.668,"end":790.925,"text":"谢谢我们结束罗明财委员的质询接下来请王世坚委员"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:43+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:41:44+08:00","text":"主席、各位出列席官員，大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:44+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:41:45+08:00","text":"主席，我請陳審計長、主計總處陳主計長、衛福部林次長、教育部張廖萬堅次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:45+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:41:46+08:00","text":"請陳審計長、陳主計長、林次長、張廖次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:46+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:41:47+08:00","text":"羅委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:47+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:41:48+08:00","text":"大家好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:41:45.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:26.393000+08:00","text":"本席向來對於教育的問題、對於兒童的問題、對於老人照顧的問題都非常非常重視，這次毒油事件令人非常的痛心，我首先請教一下衛福部，因為你們是做檢查的單位，這一次源頭的部分到底有哪幾間？","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:26.393000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:28.855000+08:00","text":"負責的是……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:28.855000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:29.855000+08:00","text":"中聯油脂。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:28.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:30.016000+08:00","text":"最主要是中聯油脂。對。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:30.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:40.337000+08:00","text":"那你們衛福部裡面有沒有人認識他們的老闆或者是總經理，或者是高階的主管？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:42.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:43.959000+08:00","text":"委員，我不清楚，我也不認識。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:43.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:44.840000+08:00","text":"你們盤點一下啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:46.301000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:46.461000+08:00","text":"你們都不認識嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:46.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:48.143000+08:00","text":"我不認識，但是我不會去問……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:48.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:49.584000+08:00","text":"有沒有跟他們一起吃過飯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:49.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:50.564000+08:00","text":"我不知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:51.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:51.405000+08:00","text":"都沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:52.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:52.366000+08:00","text":"這我不清楚。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:53.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:55.328000+08:00","text":"外界說你們一直在包庇啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:55.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:58.850000+08:00","text":"我們沒有必要包庇，我們罰了他一億多，未來可能還會罰更多。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:42:59.051000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:42:59.651000+08:00","text":"所以一億多，夠嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:01.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:03.822000+08:00","text":"國人的健康，一億多就被買單了嗎？","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:03.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:16.554000+08:00","text":"沒有，報告委員，所以我們對於中聯油脂整個行為，現在是從4月到6月份全部預防性下架；再來跟地方政府這邊，現在我們也不讓他繼續生產，因為他的品管還沒有恢復。","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:16.554000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:17.034000+08:00","text":"我問一下審計長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:21.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:35.026000+08:00","text":"審計長，為了國人的健康，我們這一、二十年來建立了防範的體制、很多的檢測單位以及很多的教育宣導，大概花了多少錢？","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:35.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:43.932000+08:00","text":"這個部分我們沒有去統計，但是每年光是食安五環大概都有四、五十億。","quality":0.793},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:43.932000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:43:54.106000+08:00","text":"好，花了四、五十億，十年就是四、五百億，官員說罰他1億6,000萬，就沒事了嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:43:54.106000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:02.728000+08:00","text":"我們的健康就被他們犧牲掉，這樣有道理嗎？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:02.848000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:18.602000+08:00","text":"審計長，現在他說的這一些問題油品導致國人平均每個人吃下了大概1瓶有毒的油脂，審計長，這油有毒嗎？","quality":0.791},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:20.643000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:23.783000+08:00","text":"照目前公布的資料是會致癌的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:25.004000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:25.144000+08:00","text":"會致癌。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:26.484000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:31.426000+08:00","text":"每一年為了國人的健康，我們的健保支出花了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:31.446000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:32.026000+08:00","text":"我們的宣導花了多少？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:33.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:34.626000+08:00","text":"結果，現在國人致癌的比率一天一天地攀升，我們為了預防，花了幾十億、幾百億。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:44:50.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:44:59.858000+08:00","text":"審計長，剛剛那個人說就罰他1億6,000萬……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:00.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:03.980000+08:00","text":"他也有說後續還會有更重大的處罰。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:04.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:16.306000+08:00","text":"現在不光是錢的問題，就是一億六再乘以十倍（16億）、再乘以百倍，對國人的健康會有所彌補嗎？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:16.306000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:17.127000+08:00","text":"我們要亡羊補牢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:19.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:40.494000+08:00","text":"是，那我想請教你，這個油1瓶……他說每一個人平均吃了一點多公升，大概就是1瓶礦泉水那麼多的油脂，如果這一瓶有問題的油讓你喝，你要不要喝？","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:41.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:44.477000+08:00","text":"因為知道有問題了，當然不喝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:45.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:51.243000+08:00","text":"好，你不喝，可是這一些問題油到底有沒有銷毀？","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:51.243000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:51.643000+08:00","text":"有沒有找到源頭？","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:53.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:55.619000+08:00","text":"衛福部在努力，行政部門都在努力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:56.819000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:57.560000+08:00","text":"衛福部做了什麼事？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:45:58.421000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:45:59.441000+08:00","text":"那要請教衛福部來……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:00.142000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:02.884000+08:00","text":"你看，我們到現在都不知道衛福部做了什麼事……","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:02.884000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:03.884000+08:00","text":"報告委員，再補充一下，即使是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:03.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:09.248000+08:00","text":"還有一個問題，這些油已經吃下去了……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:09.248000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:10.248000+08:00","text":"即使是沒有超標的油，也不要吃這麼多……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:09.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:11.769000+08:00","text":"不會講話的小朋友……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:11.769000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:15.092000+08:00","text":"而且在烹煮過程也會影響。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:15.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:22.677000+08:00","text":"幼兒、失智的老人，或者是八、九十歲以上的老人，他每天都一直在吃，吃下去怎麼辦？","quality":0.727},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:22.677000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:24.138000+08:00","text":"委員，先補充一個事情……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:24.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:26.459000+08:00","text":"這些人可不可以申請國賠？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:26.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:42.928000+08:00","text":"委員，先補充一個事情，苯駢芘是在整個製造過程中可能因為高溫及品管不好而產生，目前我們認為中聯這一家業者的品管出問題，我們要做後續對他品管上面的要求，這是第一個事情來跟委員說明。","quality":0.89},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:43.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:46:58.151000+08:00","text":"第二個事情，苯駢芘這個物質不是添加物，它是在我們一般日常飲食中的油炸製程、烹煮，甚至烘烤的過程都會產生，甚至包含抽菸等等行為，都可能會有這個物質暴露在裡面。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:46:58.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:11.834000+08:00","text":"所以再跟委員補充，這個物質事實上就是我們……對於中聯或相關的油品，這一次我們所訂的標準，主要的目的是看他在產製程中沒有符合產製程的標準。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:14.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:14.184000+08:00","text":"這個是不是致癌油？","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:15.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:21.337000+08:00","text":"委員，油本身不是，但是我們的食品……","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:21.477000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:21.797000+08:00","text":"油本身不是？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:22.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:22.798000+08:00","text":"不是，委員，這個……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:22.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:25.279000+08:00","text":"這不是說吃了會致癌嗎？","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:25.279000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:26.660000+08:00","text":"這個苯駢芘當然……","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:26.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:29.822000+08:00","text":"你旁邊的人說吃了不會致癌。我請……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:29.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:30.882000+08:00","text":"吃了不會致癌，是不是？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:31.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:32.964000+08:00","text":"那你就跟國人講啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:33.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:41.128000+08:00","text":"你就拿1瓶沙拉油，或者是有問題的油，當場當著全國人民的面前，你喝下去啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:41.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:45.271000+08:00","text":"委員，重點是光這樣喝油，對心血管就很不好，我還是要提醒。對啊……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:46.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:47.112000+08:00","text":"不論是哪一家。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:47.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:47:52.994000+08:00","text":"既然不好，你怎麼對得起這些小朋友或者是沒有辦法表達的老齡人口？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:47:53.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:08.641000+08:00","text":"我再釐清一次，關於這一次的油品，當然它超過我們所設定的標準，所以中聯的這一批油品，包含不論是驗出有超標或還沒有驗到超標，4月到6月這29批現在全部都是預防性下架。","quality":0.803},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:11.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:15.502000+08:00","text":"現在預防性下架的意思是說，這些有問題的油是可以吃還是不可以吃？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:15.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:47.554000+08:00","text":"有問題的這些因為超過我們的標準，所以把它下架了，但是容我稍微說明一下，即使今天是一個符合標準的油拿去油炸，油炸出來苯駢芘的量就非常、非常高，所以站在食品及健康立場上來講……我們在這邊管理的是前端製程必須符合標準，但是在日常生活，尤其臺灣，如果是大火烘烤或者是油炸的飲食，苯駢芘的量事實上都一直存在食品中。","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:47.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:52.513500+08:00","text":"好，請教育部。","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:52.513500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:57.473000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:57.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:48:57.473000+08:00","text":"是，次長。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:48:57.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:49:09.458000+08:00","text":"對於國小兒童還有這些教育相關的機構，他沒地方選擇，他就是在學校，營養午餐也好，或者準備的膳食也好，他只有選擇吃啊！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:49:13.341000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:49:19.128000+08:00","text":"已經有很多的學校都面臨這樣的問題，接下來怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:49:19.969000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:49:41.368000+08:00","text":"是，跟委員報告，我們在7月1日接到食藥署通告之後，就開始透過校園食材登錄平臺……學校現在大概99%都在食材登錄平臺裡面，去撈出1,385校，然後第二天（7月2日）馬上就通知地方縣市政府做清查，就是用到當時查出來那15項品牌的油。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:49:42.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:49:46.072000+08:00","text":"開始撈到現在，大概已經有7個縣市、260個學校使用50項公布的油品……","quality":0.56},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:49:51.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:49:53.077000+08:00","text":"這些人吃了多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:49:56.839000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:14.464000+08:00","text":"我們是依照食藥署公布的來撈，撈到的是有使用的部分，根據食藥署公布的品項，它是4月初製造的5種品項，我們是用那個資料來撈的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:14.904000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:16.064000+08:00","text":"這樣算一算，大概吃多久了？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:17.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:17.865000+08:00","text":"吃多久？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:20.885000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:21.246000+08:00","text":"兩個月左右。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:22.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:22.306000+08:00","text":"兩個月啊？對。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:22.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:32.836000+08:00","text":"如果一個小朋友……比如一年級、二年級的學生，他就這樣一直吃、一直吃，吃了兩個月，對身體會不會造成什麼樣的損害？","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:34.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:37.827000+08:00","text":"我們會跟衛福部一起來追蹤，就是說他的……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:38.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:40.488000+08:00","text":"不要追蹤，衛福部就在你旁邊啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:41.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:42.568000+08:00","text":"我們以後相關的管理……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:44.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:44.528000+08:00","text":"林次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:44.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:47.089000+08:00","text":"報告委員，還是……因為小朋友這邊，我們……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:47.089000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:53.250000+08:00","text":"就剛剛這個問題，小朋友如果是一、二年級，他已經吃了兩個月，兩個月可能吃了一瓶那麼大的一個……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:53.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:55.511000+08:00","text":"小朋友如果兩個月吃這麼多油，我想不是好事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:56.573000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:50:57.554000+08:00","text":"可是他已經吃了啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:50:58.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:02.398000+08:00","text":"不可能，委員，小朋友兩個月真的沒有道理吃這麼多油。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:02.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:03.720000+08:00","text":"那大概吃多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:03.720000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:04.720000+08:00","text":"這要看他的烹煮、他的食物。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:04.440000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:06.682000+08:00","text":"沒有一瓶，有沒有吃到半瓶？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:07.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:18.093000+08:00","text":"委員，重點是烹煮過程中相關的食品，這裡面有多樣的原因，現在在食藥署這邊，為什麼這一批油我們會讓他要下架、要罰？","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:18.093000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:22.216000+08:00","text":"第一個是因為他延遲通報，第二是檢驗上面不合格還讓它上架，是這兩個問題。","quality":0.781},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:23.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:30.799000+08:00","text":"那我問你，這個事情已經發生好幾天了，比如今天，今天是幾月幾號？7月15日。","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:32.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:36.883000+08:00","text":"今天是7月15號，還有沒有學童繼續在吃這一批有毒的油品？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:36.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:51:59.209000+08:00","text":"委員，6月30日我們收到業者通知之後，在7月2日，我們就要求所有業者將第一批──就是中聯4月份那一批全部要下架，後續因為下游（第二層業者）通報其他檢驗也有問題，所以我們現在把中聯從4月份到6月份的29批油全部都預防性下架。","quality":0.022},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:51:59.209000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:05.254000+08:00","text":"現在你都下架了，但是生活還是要過，油還是要吃啊……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:05.254000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:07.316000+08:00","text":"是，所以在這段時間，其他的油……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:07.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:10.138000+08:00","text":"這一批油是國內供油的大宗……是。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:11.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:15.182000+08:00","text":"這一批油沒有了，以後你要叫這些食品業者加什麼油？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:15.543000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:24.230000+08:00","text":"所以我們在這段時間，當然也先請地方政府都確認過另外三家大的油廠……另外幾家大的煉油廠，他們的產品目前是OK的。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:25.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:36.755000+08:00","text":"我們也正在啟動……就是因為現在這29批裡面有5批確定超標，所以是不可能再上來了，另外24批預防性下架的，假設有可信的檢體，我們後續會做一些檢查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:37.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:49.520000+08:00","text":"為了國人的健康，你們一定要拴緊螺絲、要嚴正地面對這件事情，不要跟全民為敵。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:49.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:50.520000+08:00","text":"我們會跟地方政府一起處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:49.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:50.340000+08:00","text":"做得到嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:50.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:51.721000+08:00","text":"大家都一起在吃這些油啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:52.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:54.283000+08:00","text":"你要站在人民的立場……是。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:54.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:56.784000+08:00","text":"而不是站在這些業者的立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:56.784000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:58.626000+08:00","text":"沒有必要站在業者立場。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:58.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:52:59.486000+08:00","text":"真的嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:52:59.486000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:00.027000+08:00","text":"沒有必要啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:00.647000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:01.368000+08:00","text":"為什麼要站在業者的立場？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:02.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:13.457000+08:00","text":"包括在場的官員，你們回去之後查查看，有沒有任何官員跟中聯有吃過一頓飯，或者有認識、包庇？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:13.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:15.979000+08:00","text":"委員，你講的是包含地方政府嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:15.979000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:17.200000+08:00","text":"因為地方政府可能跟他們比較近。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:17.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:17.380000+08:00","text":"你查啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:18.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:18.661000+08:00","text":"有，你就公布啊！","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:18.661000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:20.470000+08:00","text":"我們不太……","quality":0},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:20.470000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:22.412000+08:00","text":"你先查中央政府有沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:23.313000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:27.356000+08:00","text":"中央政府這邊其實我們到……連他們董事長姓什麼我都不知道。","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:27.957000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:28.918000+08:00","text":"你們下面的人那麼多……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:31.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:33.202000+08:00","text":"報告委員，相關我還是要提醒……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:33.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:34.523000+08:00","text":"食藥署裡面有多少員工？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:34.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:35.383000+08:00","text":"委員，我再提醒一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:35.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:36.084000+08:00","text":"食藥署裡面有多少員工？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:36.084000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:38.776500+08:00","text":"委員，我再提醒一下。","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:38.776500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:41.469000+08:00","text":"食藥署裡面有多少員工？1,500個。1,500個！","quality":0.071},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:41.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:45.432000+08:00","text":"你敢保證你嘴巴裡面講出來說你跟他都不熟？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:46.673000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:47.193000+08:00","text":"1,500個，每個都不熟嗎？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:47.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:49.895000+08:00","text":"委員，我知道你要問的是利益關係……","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:50.495000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:51.716000+08:00","text":"是，你知道就要查啊！","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:52.016000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:55.759000+08:00","text":"我還是要強調，依照食安法，定期稽查是由地方政府。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:55.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:53:58.741000+08:00","text":"你要叫我們相信你，可是你要叫我們相信1,500個人嗎？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:53:59.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:02.243000+08:00","text":"委員，如果這樣我會建議包含地方政府全部都要了解。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:02.263000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:04.404000+08:00","text":"你查，你查，我當然支持查啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:05.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:07.986000+08:00","text":"把事情釐清楚，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:07.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:09.487000+08:00","text":"要把罪魁禍首抓出來！","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:10.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:12.568000+08:00","text":"開玩笑，拿全民的安全來做賭注，沒有任何一點空間！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:13.068000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:13.328000+08:00","text":"現在檢調已經在查了，謝謝委員。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:13.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:30.808000+08:00","text":"主計長，這個油不能吃、那個油不能吃，其他可以吃的油會不會漲價？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:30.808000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:33.891000+08:00","text":"對整個消費者的影響在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:33.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:41.797000+08:00","text":"這要看它供應的情形，如果有缺貨就會漲價，或者是缺貨買不到，就會有一些……","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"羅委員明才","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:41.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:44.540000+08:00","text":"你注意一下，看看有沒有業者趁機哄抬物價，謝謝。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"陳主計長淑姿","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:44.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:49.989000+08:00","text":"是，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:49.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:51.455000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們結束羅明才委員的質詢。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T11:54:51.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:54:53.744000+08:00","text":"接下來請王世堅委員。","quality":0.556}]},"gazette":{"lineno":808,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時41分）主席、各位出列席官員，大家好。主席，我請陳審計長、主計總處陳主計長、衛福部林次長、教育部張廖萬堅次長。"],["主席：請陳審計長、陳主計長、林次長、張廖次長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：羅委員好。"],["羅委員明才：大家好。本席向來對於教育的問題、對於兒童的問題、對於老人照顧的問題都非常非常重視，這次毒油事件令人非常的痛心，我首先請教一下衛福部，因為你們是做檢查的單位，這一次源頭的部分到底有哪幾間？負責的是……"],["林次長靜儀：中聯油脂。"],["羅委員明才：最主要是中聯油脂。"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["羅委員明才：那你們衛福部裡面有沒有人認識他們的老闆或者是總經理，或者是高階的主管？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我不清楚，我也不認識。"],["羅委員明才：你們盤點一下啊！你們都不認識嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：我不認識，但是我不會去問……"],["羅委員明才：有沒有跟他們一起吃過飯？"],["林次長靜儀：我不知道。"],["羅委員明才：都沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：這我不清楚。"],["羅委員明才：外界說你們一直在包庇啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我們沒有必要包庇，我們罰了他一億多，未來可能還會罰更多。"],["羅委員明才：所以一億多，夠嗎？國人的健康，一億多就被買單了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，報告委員，所以我們對於中聯油脂整個行為，現在是從4月到6月份全部預防性下架；再來跟地方政府這邊，現在我們也不讓他繼續生產，因為他的品管還沒有恢復。"],["羅委員明才：我問一下審計長。審計長，為了國人的健康，我們這一、二十年來建立了防範的體制、很多的檢測單位以及很多的教育宣導，大概花了多少錢？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：這個部分我們沒有去統計，但是每年光是食安五環大概都有四、五十億。"],["羅委員明才：好，花了四、五十億，十年就是四、五百億，官員說罰他1億6,000萬，就沒事了嗎？我們的健康就被他們犧牲掉，這樣有道理嗎？審計長，現在他說的這一些問題油品導致國人平均每個人吃下了大概1瓶有毒的油脂，審計長，這油有毒嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：照目前公布的資料是會致癌的。"],["羅委員明才：會致癌。每一年為了國人的健康，我們的健保支出花了多少？我們的宣導花了多少？結果，現在國人致癌的比率一天一天地攀升，我們為了預防，花了幾十億、幾百億。審計長，剛剛那個人說就罰他1億6,000萬……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：他也有說後續還會有更重大的處罰。"],["羅委員明才：現在不光是錢的問題，就是一億六再乘以十倍（16億）、再乘以百倍，對國人的健康會有所彌補嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：我們要亡羊補牢。"],["羅委員明才：是，那我想請教你，這個油1瓶……他說每一個人平均吃了一點多公升，大概就是1瓶礦泉水那麼多的油脂，如果這一瓶有問題的油讓你喝，你要不要喝？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：因為知道有問題了，當然不喝。"],["羅委員明才：好，你不喝，可是這一些問題油到底有沒有銷毀？有沒有找到源頭？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：衛福部在努力，行政部門都在努力。"],["羅委員明才：衛福部做了什麼事？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：那要請教衛福部來……"],["羅委員明才：你看，我們到現在都不知道衛福部做了什麼事……"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，再補充一下，即使是……"],["羅委員明才：還有一個問題，這些油已經吃下去了……"],["林次長靜儀：即使是沒有超標的油，也不要吃這麼多……"],["羅委員明才：不會講話的小朋友……"],["林次長靜儀：而且在烹煮過程也會影響。"],["羅委員明才：幼兒、失智的老人，或者是八、九十歲以上的老人，他每天都一直在吃，吃下去怎麼辦？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，先補充一個事情……"],["羅委員明才：這些人可不可以申請國賠？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，先補充一個事情，苯駢芘是在整個製造過程中可能因為高溫及品管不好而產生，目前我們認為中聯這一家業者的品管出問題，我們要做後續對他品管上面的要求，這是第一個事情來跟委員說明。第二個事情，苯駢芘這個物質不是添加物，它是在我們一般日常飲食中的油炸製程、烹煮，甚至烘烤的過程都會產生，甚至包含抽菸等等行為，都可能會有這個物質暴露在裡面。所以再跟委員補充，這個物質事實上就是我們……對於中聯或相關的油品，這一次我們所訂的標準，主要的目的是看他在產製程中沒有符合產製程的標準。"],["羅委員明才：這個是不是致癌油？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，油本身不是，但是我們的食品……"],["羅委員明才：油本身不是？"],["林次長靜儀：不是，委員，這個……"],["羅委員明才：這不是說吃了會致癌嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：這個苯駢芘當然……"],["羅委員明才：你旁邊的人說吃了不會致癌。"],["林次長靜儀：我請……"],["羅委員明才：吃了不會致癌，是不是？那你就跟國人講啊！你就拿1瓶沙拉油，或者是有問題的油，當場當著全國人民的面前，你喝下去啊！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，重點是光這樣喝油，對心血管就很不好，我還是要提醒。"],["羅委員明才：對啊……"],["林次長靜儀：不論是哪一家。"],["羅委員明才：既然不好，你怎麼對得起這些小朋友或者是沒有辦法表達的老齡人口？"],["林次長靜儀：我再釐清一次，關於這一次的油品，當然它超過我們所設定的標準，所以中聯的這一批油品，包含不論是驗出有超標或還沒有驗到超標，4月到6月這29批現在全部都是預防性下架。"],["羅委員明才：現在預防性下架的意思是說，這些有問題的油是可以吃還是不可以吃？"],["林次長靜儀：有問題的這些因為超過我們的標準，所以把它下架了，但是容我稍微說明一下，即使今天是一個符合標準的油拿去油炸，油炸出來苯駢芘的量就非常、非常高，所以站在食品及健康立場上來講……我們在這邊管理的是前端製程必須符合標準，但是在日常生活，尤其臺灣，如果是大火烘烤或者是油炸的飲食，苯駢芘的量事實上都一直存在食品中。"],["羅委員明才：好，請教育部。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：是，次長。對於國小兒童還有這些教育相關的機構，他沒地方選擇，他就是在學校，營養午餐也好，或者準備的膳食也好，他只有選擇吃啊！已經有很多的學校都面臨這樣的問題，接下來怎麼做？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，跟委員報告，我們在7月1日接到食藥署通告之後，就開始透過校園食材登錄平臺……學校現在大概99%都在食材登錄平臺裡面，去撈出1,385校，然後第二天（7月2日）馬上就通知地方縣市政府做清查，就是用到當時查出來那15項品牌的油。開始撈到現在，大概已經有7個縣市、260個學校使用50項公布的油品……"],["羅委員明才：這些人吃了多久？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是依照食藥署公布的來撈，撈到的是有使用的部分，根據食藥署公布的品項，它是4月初製造的5種品項，我們是用那個資料來撈的。"],["羅委員明才：這樣算一算，大概吃多久了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：吃多久？兩個月左右。"],["羅委員明才：兩個月啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["羅委員明才：如果一個小朋友……比如一年級、二年級的學生，他就這樣一直吃、一直吃，吃了兩個月，對身體會不會造成什麼樣的損害？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會跟衛福部一起來追蹤，就是說他的……"],["羅委員明才：不要追蹤，衛福部就在你旁邊啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們以後相關的管理……"],["羅委員明才：林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，還是……因為小朋友這邊，我們……"],["羅委員明才：就剛剛這個問題，小朋友如果是一、二年級，他已經吃了兩個月，兩個月可能吃了一瓶那麼大的一個……"],["林次長靜儀：小朋友如果兩個月吃這麼多油，我想不是好事。"],["羅委員明才：可是他已經吃了啊！"],["林次長靜儀：不可能，委員，小朋友兩個月真的沒有道理吃這麼多油。"],["羅委員明才：那大概吃多少？"],["林次長靜儀：這要看他的烹煮、他的食物。"],["羅委員明才：沒有一瓶，有沒有吃到半瓶？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，重點是烹煮過程中相關的食品，這裡面有多樣的原因，現在在食藥署這邊，為什麼這一批油我們會讓他要下架、要罰？第一個是因為他延遲通報，第二是檢驗上面不合格還讓它上架，是這兩個問題。"],["羅委員明才：那我問你，這個事情已經發生好幾天了，比如今天，今天是幾月幾號？"],["林次長靜儀：7月15日。"],["羅委員明才：今天是7月15號，還有沒有學童繼續在吃這一批有毒的油品？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，6月30日我們收到業者通知之後，在7月2日，我們就要求所有業者將第一批──就是中聯4月份那一批全部要下架，後續因為下游（第二層業者）通報其他檢驗也有問題，所以我們現在把中聯從4月份到6月份的29批油全部都預防性下架。"],["羅委員明才：現在你都下架了，但是生活還是要過，油還是要吃啊……"],["林次長靜儀：是，所以在這段時間，其他的油……"],["羅委員明才：這一批油是國內供油的大宗……"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["羅委員明才：這一批油沒有了，以後你要叫這些食品業者加什麼油？"],["林次長靜儀：所以我們在這段時間，當然也先請地方政府都確認過另外三家大的油廠……另外幾家大的煉油廠，他們的產品目前是OK的。我們也正在啟動……就是因為現在這29批裡面有5批確定超標，所以是不可能再上來了，另外24批預防性下架的，假設有可信的檢體，我們後續會做一些檢查。"],["羅委員明才：為了國人的健康，你們一定要拴緊螺絲、要嚴正地面對這件事情，不要跟全民為敵。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會跟地方政府一起處理。"],["羅委員明才：做得到嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：大家都一起在吃這些油啊！"],["羅委員明才：你要站在人民的立場……"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["羅委員明才：而不是站在這些業者的立場。"],["林次長靜儀：沒有必要站在業者立場。"],["羅委員明才：真的嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有必要啊！為什麼要站在業者的立場？"],["羅委員明才：包括在場的官員，你們回去之後查查看，有沒有任何官員跟中聯有吃過一頓飯，或者有認識、包庇？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，你講的是包含地方政府嗎？因為地方政府可能跟他們比較近。"],["羅委員明才：你查啊！有，你就公布啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我們不太……"],["羅委員明才：你先查中央政府有沒有啊！"],["林次長靜儀：中央政府這邊其實我們到……連他們董事長姓什麼我都不知道。"],["羅委員明才：你們下面的人那麼多……"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，相關我還是要提醒……"],["羅委員明才：食藥署裡面有多少員工？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我再提醒一下。"],["羅委員明才：食藥署裡面有多少員工？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我再提醒一下。"],["羅委員明才：食藥署裡面有多少員工？"],["林次長靜儀：1,500個。"],["羅委員明才：1,500個！你敢保證你嘴巴裡面講出來說你跟他都不熟？1,500個，每個都不熟嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我知道你要問的是利益關係……"],["羅委員明才：是，你知道就要查啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我還是要強調，依照食安法，定期稽查是由地方政府。"],["羅委員明才：你要叫我們相信你，可是你要叫我們相信1,500個人嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，如果這樣我會建議包含地方政府全部都要了解。"],["羅委員明才：你查，你查，我當然支持查啊！把事情釐清楚，對不對？要把罪魁禍首抓出來！開玩笑，拿全民的安全來做賭注，沒有任何一點空間！"],["林次長靜儀：現在檢調已經在查了，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，這個油不能吃、那個油不能吃，其他可以吃的油會不會漲價？對整個消費者的影響在哪裡？"],["陳主計長淑姿：這要看它供應的情形，如果有缺貨就會漲價，或者是缺貨買不到，就會有一些……"],["羅委員明才：你注意一下，看看有沒有業者趁機哄抬物價，謝謝。"],["陳主計長淑姿：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們結束羅明才委員的質詢。","接下來請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}