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沒想到是在這個地方相遇喔這個古語有言 損者三有 有貧弊現在我們是碰到本貧弊這個古語有時候都還滿應驗的"},{"start":31.258,"end":58.372,"text":"這個現在亡羊補牢我希望衛福部態度要做出來也就是說面對這次毒瘤事件我們整個亡羊補牢的作業我們要誠實勇敢沉著那就是說我們要開誠布公那麼不虛假而且政府也應該主動揭露不逃避"},{"start":59.722,"end":78.731,"text":"還有要指揮善後不慌張不慌張我怎麼樣看出說你們有點慌張呢比方說你們一直到昨天才要求業者要自主揭露結果這個自主揭露你們 欸 比較好的獨油商你們像泰山他不錯"},{"start":83.072,"end":92.704,"text":"你要求他自主揭露他馬上公佈下游包括產品清單結果福壽啦 福茂啦這些他通通沒有公佈產品清單所以"},{"start":100.473,"end":115.672,"text":"我們民眾 消費者根本全然不知我覺得他們還在逃避當中啦他們還在逃避當中這個事情我們7月10號開會的時候有當面要求那現在在他們網站上我們剛剛同仁在點是點得進去的"},{"start":117.637,"end":135.185,"text":"對啊 你們到今天上午才上架才把這個資料補全啊 不是嗎沒有 這是業者要補但我們自己是每一天都在公佈所以我們現在在食藥署的官方網站上有440項產品已經公佈對 你總頓數其實到今天才更正到正確嘛你在"},{"start":136.687,"end":157.451,"text":"昨天之前你的總噸數還維持在1300多噸那我現在是要另外問你的就是說進口的巴西黃豆這一次說是因為它含水量高所以造成後續製造上產生這些毒素 粉瓶病那麼但是它那些數量進來總共有59.9萬公噸"},{"start":162.219,"end":175.47,"text":"所以次長回去你查一下這59.9萬公噸到底這些廠商用了多少因為他們可能很可能只用一部分"},{"start":177.162,"end":203.189,"text":"可能剩下的那他到底這些怎麼處置我們有沒有去追蹤好不好那因為後續的問題喔我覺得要查我就不想問你啦你請回你把我帶回去這句話59.9萬公噸的這些黃豆到底下落是如何已經用了多少還有多少還沒用那再來的問題喔你請問我請那個審計處長好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":209.079,"end":209.82,"text":"請沈記長沈記長很多事我認為可能要由你下去查行政調查後大概才查得出來謝謝"},{"start":222.403,"end":242.811,"text":"我要查的第一件事情包括我剛剛請衛福部林市長他們回去查的其實也麻煩您幫我了解一下好不好到底這些有問題的黃豆還有多少現在下落如何第二點就是說很奇怪的在我們這個颱風假前"},{"start":245.27,"end":265.818,"text":"那麼我們7月8號為止所有官方網站上總共這個超標油品有1300公噸怎麼才過了一個禮拜颱風架一放完以後到今天啊暴增到5756公噸怎麼突然間一下子多了這個"},{"start":273.875,"end":278.883,"text":"4100公噸這一點你回去把他們釐清到底是怎麼樣是"},{"start":281.691,"end":310.118,"text":"這四大廠商心虛不敢去報還是說他們在這個部分當中還打算有所隱瞞第二點就是說這個回收到現在為止你看中聯的大豆沙有1300公噸到7月13日為止到前天為止它只回收410公噸回收得太少太慢"},{"start":311.318,"end":334.328,"text":"那麼7月7號通報的泰山的部分泰山的部分他通報了1309公噸結果只回收505公噸這個南橋的部分這個都是5月10號左右製造的喔5月份製造的報了他1305.9公噸"},{"start":338.322,"end":357.318,"text":"它還算是這裡面最誠實的喔它也才回收319公噸好了這個最近7月12號那麼又公布了福壽兩批也是有毒的大豆沙拉油分別是報了533.85公噸跟1307公噸"},{"start":363.528,"end":370.693,"text":"結果他分別回收都只有533公噸的回收243還算OK一半1300公噸的只回收162公噸整個統計下來也就是說總共這些毒油量5756公噸"},{"start":387.005,"end":400.184,"text":"總回收多少 總回收1641公噸回收不到三成 天啊 有七成耶跑哪裡去 簡單講 就跑到我們每個消費者"},{"start":402.062,"end":420.54,"text":"對 肚子裡的啦委員不好意思我告訴一下因為其實中聯這一批他最早出問題就是他這個其中有一個郵巢那他那個是四月份最早通報就是說六月三十收到通報的所以那個各位委員現在看到一千三是那一桶就是他那個整個郵巢的那後面的四千"},{"start":421.201,"end":450.302,"text":"那後面這邊是我們因為發現後來陸續有得到通報那所以我們是把中油中聯從4月份到6月份29批的油全部預防性的下架所以會出現這個比較高的數字這是第二個部分跟委員補充第三就是說這邊的回收跟下架先講一個資訊目前我們已經跟我們持續以來就要求福茂福壽跟泰山通知他們的下油廠商跟他們自己所以把所有這29批全部預防性下架是全部下架"},{"start":450.842,"end":474.972,"text":"那這裡面有一些回收是陸續因為有比方說它已經是就是中聯那一個已經超標的那個要回收那有些它還在油草裡頭就是說它可能在下油廠商製造食品的油草裡頭那那批現在就直接是所以這4000公噸你說不一定是全部進到我們大家肚子是其中有一些是預防性 好不好那既然你上來好 那個次長既然你上來你很勇敢"},{"start":477.497,"end":498.166,"text":"這個我希望外務部回去研究一下甚至可以找法務部一起研究要制定專法啦 什麼專法呢就是說如果未來發生重大食品危害毒害事件的話主管機關可以向這些違法黑心業者查扣他們的財產"},{"start":500.185,"end":526.406,"text":"查扣他們的財產 假扣也要他們的財產那麼這一些查扣來的財產未來用來給給受害者包括受害的下游廠商才求償有門可不可以你現在就可以做的一部分就是說你可以要求健保局啊很多我們受害的民眾現在腸胃不舒服啊或者發生了其他更嚴重的事情那"},{"start":527.997,"end":553.122,"text":"健保署他們所支出的這個醫藥整治費其實這一些都可以向這個已經可以正式向這些危害的廠商來跟他們求償因為現在我們法律上允許的是只有消保官那針對有民眾或者有下屬廠商真的提出簡據單據證明這一些"},{"start":557.239,"end":560.008,"text":"才有去部分的集體訴訟我覺得這還不夠"},{"start":563.028,"end":589.324,"text":"應該把衛福部的權限再擴大因為這一個部分石油 食用品的部分出了問題全民會一致的要求的第一個單位就是直指衛福部啊所以衛福部本來就應該要有更強烈的方式可以來遏止這種情形當然啦 你們現在要求說以後不能只有自主檢查 這是對的"},{"start":591.172,"end":606.293,"text":"那這只是一部分 我覺得要從耕耘把他們這些傢伙這些惡職廠商可以把他們的惡劣行徑由他們來付出慘重的代價這樣他們以後才不敢"},{"start":606.914,"end":629.321,"text":"好不好你回去研究一下這個制定專法啦好不好因為只有你們你們是帶頭的第一個單位所以你們有權利來制定這一部分的專法好不好回去好好研究我們會來跟相關的單位做研議那現在在因為檢調也已經介入了先跟委員報告好 那個沈縣長我剛剛提的那幾點你再回去"},{"start":630.592,"end":646.273,"text":"好不好 就是這些我們大家共同有的疑點我們必須查清楚對社會交代可以肆意 好不好好 謝謝謝謝我們結束王世堅委員的質詢接下來請許中信委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:08+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:10.591000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，我請衛福部次長。","quality":0.273},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:10.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:16.795000+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:16.795000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:17.795000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:16.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:17.596000+08:00","text":"林次長。是。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:17.596000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:19.377000+08:00","text":"沒想到是在這個地方相遇。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:22.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:55:35.389000+08:00","text":"古語有云：損者三友，友便辟，現在我們是碰到「苯駢芘」，古語有時候還滿應驗的。","quality":0.742},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:55:39.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:56:12.384000+08:00","text":"現在要亡羊補牢，我希望衛福部態度要做出來，也就是面對這次毒油事件，整個亡羊補牢的作業要誠實、勇敢、沉著，亦即政府要開誠布公，不虛假；應該主動揭露，不逃避；還有指揮善後，不慌張。","quality":0.921},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:56:13.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:56:15.626000+08:00","text":"但我怎麼樣看都覺得你們有點慌張呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:56:15.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:56:38.221000+08:00","text":"比方說，你們明明知道昨天才要求業者要自主揭露，結果自主揭露中比較好的毒油商，像泰山不錯，你要求它自主揭露，它馬上公布下游，包括產品清單都公布。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:56:38.221000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:56:39.221000+08:00","text":"是，這是我們7月10日跟他們開會的要求。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:56:38.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:56:53.860000+08:00","text":"結果福壽、福懋通通沒有公布產品清單，所以民眾及消費者根本全然不知，我覺得他們還在逃避。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:56:57.744000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:57:03.652000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個事情我們7月10日開會時有當面要求，目前在他們網站上，我們同仁剛剛在點是點得進去的。","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:57:05.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:57:10.879000+08:00","text":"對啊，你們到今天上午才上架把資料補全，不是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:57:10.879000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:57:17.622000+08:00","text":"沒有，這是業者要補，我們自己是每一天都在公布，所以現在在食藥署的官方網站上，有440項產品已經公布。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:57:18.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:57:31.088000+08:00","text":"對，總噸數其實到今天才更正到正確數字嘛，在昨天之前你的總噸數還維持在一千三百多噸。","quality":0.816},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:57:31.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:57:58.185000+08:00","text":"我現在要另外問你的是，這一次是說進口的巴西黃豆因為含水量高，所以造成後續製造上產生毒素苯駢芘，但是那些數量進來總共有59.9萬公噸，次長，你回去查一下，59.9萬公噸到底廠商用了多少？","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:57:59.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:10.603000+08:00","text":"因為他們很可能只用一部分，剩下的他們到底怎麼處置，你們有沒有去追蹤？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:11.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:24.647000+08:00","text":"因為後續的問題要查我就不想問你了，你請回，你把我這句話帶回去：這些59.9萬公噸的黃豆到底下落是如何？","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:25.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:26.028000+08:00","text":"已經用了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:26.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:28.148000+08:00","text":"還有多少還沒用？好。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:28.148000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:30.589000+08:00","text":"時間暫停，你請回。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:30.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:31.029000+08:00","text":"我請審計長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:31.169000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:31.189000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:37.079000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:37.099000+08:00","text":"請審計長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:37.099000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:38.099000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:37.179000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:58:37.820000+08:00","text":"審計長，很多事我認為可能要由你下去查，大概行政調查才查得出來。謝謝。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:58:50.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:00.327000+08:00","text":"我要查的第一件事情，包括我剛剛請衛福部林次長他們回去查的，也麻煩您幫我了解一下，好不好？好。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:59:00.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:05.629000+08:00","text":"到底這些有問題的黃豆還有多少，現在下落如何？好。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:59:06.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:32.537000+08:00","text":"第二點，很奇怪，在我們颱風假前，7月8日為止，所有的官方網站上總共有超標油品1,300公噸，怎麼才過了一個禮拜，颱風假放完以後到今天，暴增到5,756公噸！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:59:32.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:42.777000+08:00","text":"怎麼突然間一下子多了4,100公噸！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:59:42.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:46.863000+08:00","text":"這一點你回去釐清到底是怎麼樣？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T11:59:46.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T11:59:59.793000+08:00","text":"是這四大廠商心虛不敢報，還是他們在這當中打算有所隱瞞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:00:01.834000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:00:18.098000+08:00","text":"回收到現在為止，你看中聯的大豆沙拉油1,300公噸，到7月13日即前天為止，它只回收410公噸，回收的太少、太慢。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:00:20.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:00:35.105000+08:00","text":"7月7日通報的泰山，它通報了1,309公噸，結果只回收505公噸。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:00:35.105000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:00:53.648000+08:00","text":"南僑的部分，這個都是5月10日左右製造的，5月份製造的，它報了1305.9公噸，它還算是這裡面最誠實的，也才回收319公噸。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:00:55.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:01:17.072000+08:00","text":"最近7月12日又公布了福壽兩批也是有毒的大豆沙拉油，分別報了533.85公噸跟1,307公噸，結果回收部分，533公噸回收243公噸還算OK喔，有一半，而1,300公噸只回收162公噸。","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:01:17.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:01:42.095000+08:00","text":"整個統計下來，也就是這些毒油量總共5,756公噸，總回收1,641公噸，回收不到三成！天啊！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:01:42.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:01:45.240000+08:00","text":"有七成跑哪裡去？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:01:46.522000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:01:50.642000+08:00","text":"簡單講，就跑到我們每個消費者的肚子裡了啦！","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:01:51.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:01:52.284000+08:00","text":"委員，我補充一下，不好意思。","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:01:54.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:02:07.219000+08:00","text":"其實中聯這一批最早出問題的就是它其中一個油槽，然後那個是4月份最早……就是6月30日收到通報的，所以各位委員現在看到的1,300公噸是那一桶，就是那整個油槽的油1,300公噸。","quality":0.757},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:02:09.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:02:10.322000+08:00","text":"後面這4,000公噸？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:02:10.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:02:23.471000+08:00","text":"後面是因為我們後來陸續得到通報發現，所以我們把中聯4月份到6月份共29批的油全部預防性下架，因此會出現這個比較高的數字，這是第二個部分跟委員補充。","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:02:23.972000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:02:51.787000+08:00","text":"第三個是這邊的回收跟下架，先講一個資訊，目前我們已經跟……我們持續以來就要求福懋、福壽跟泰山通知他們的下游廠商跟他們自己，所以把所有29批全部預防性下架，是全部下架，這裡面有一些回收是陸續的，比方說中聯已經超標的要回收，有些還在油槽裡頭，就是可能在下游廠商製造食品的油槽裡頭的，那批現在就直接還在那邊。","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:02:52.367000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:02:56.289000+08:00","text":"所以你說這4,000公噸不一定是全部進到我們大家的肚子？","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:02:56.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:00.371000+08:00","text":"是，其中有一些是預防性，再來就是……","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:01.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:02.952000+08:00","text":"次長，既然你上來了，你很勇敢！","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:05.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:12.760000+08:00","text":"我希望衛福部回去研究一下，甚至可以找法務部一起研究，要制定專法啦！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:13.040000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:13.741000+08:00","text":"什麼專法呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:13.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:41.816000+08:00","text":"就是說如果未來發生重大食品危害毒害事件的話，主管機關可以查扣這些違法黑心業者的財產，假扣押他們的財產，那麼這些查扣來的財產未來用來給付給受害者，包括受害的下游廠商，才求償有門！","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:41.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:03:42.136000+08:00","text":"可不可以？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:03:42.557000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:04:11.400000+08:00","text":"你現在就可以做的一部分就是你可以要求健保局，很多受害的民眾現在腸胃不舒服或者發生其他更嚴重的事情，健保署所支出的醫藥診治費等等這些已經可以正式向這些危害的廠商求償。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:04:11.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:04:46.017000+08:00","text":"因為現在法律上允許的是，只有消保官針對民眾或者下游廠商真的檢具單據證明的才有部分集體訴訟，我覺得這還不夠，應該把衛福部的權限再擴大，因為食用品的部分出了問題，全民會一致要求的第一個單位就是直指衛福部啊！","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:04:46.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:04:53.142000+08:00","text":"所以衛福部本來就應該要有更強烈的方式可以遏止這種情形。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:04:53.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:15.034000+08:00","text":"當然你們現在要求以後不能只有自主檢查，這是對的，但這只是一部分，我覺得要從根源讓這些傢伙、這些惡質廠商對自己的惡劣行徑付出慘痛的代價，這樣他們以後才不敢，好不好？","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:15.034000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:16.034000+08:00","text":"好，相關機制我們會做一些研議。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:15.514000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:19.455000+08:00","text":"你回去研究一下制定專法，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:19.455000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:20.455000+08:00","text":"好，我們會跟委員……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:19.575000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:27.958000+08:00","text":"因為你們是帶頭的第一個單位，所以你們有權力來制定這部分的專法，好不好？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:28.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:28.918000+08:00","text":"回去好好研究。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:29.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:34.520000+08:00","text":"我們會跟相關單位研議，現在檢調也已經介入了，先跟委員報告。好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:35.780000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:37.301000+08:00","text":"審計長，我剛剛提的幾點你再回去……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:37.301000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:38.592000+08:00","text":"好，我們遵照委員的意見……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:38.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:38.912000+08:00","text":"好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員世堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:39.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:48.445000+08:00","text":"就是這些我們大家共同有的疑點必須查清楚，對社會交代，可以釋疑，好不好？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:48.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:50.388000+08:00","text":"好，尊重委員的意見。謝謝。","quality":0.3},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:50.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:52.591000+08:00","text":"謝謝，我們結束王世堅委員的質詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:05:52.591000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:05:54.273000+08:00","text":"接下來請許忠信委員。","quality":0.889}]},"gazette":{"lineno":939,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時55分）謝謝主席，我請衛福部次長。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["王委員世堅：沒想到是在這個地方相遇。古語有云：損者三友，友便辟，現在我們是碰到「苯駢芘」，古語有時候還滿應驗的。","現在要亡羊補牢，我希望衛福部態度要做出來，也就是面對這次毒油事件，整個亡羊補牢的作業要誠實、勇敢、沉著，亦即政府要開誠布公，不虛假；應該主動揭露，不逃避；還有指揮善後，不慌張。","但我怎麼樣看都覺得你們有點慌張呢？比方說，你們明明知道昨天才要求業者要自主揭露，結果自主揭露中比較好的毒油商，像泰山不錯，你要求它自主揭露，它馬上公布下游，包括產品清單都公布。"],["林次長靜儀：是，這是我們7月10日跟他們開會的要求。"],["王委員世堅：結果福壽、福懋通通沒有公布產品清單，所以民眾及消費者根本全然不知，我覺得他們還在逃避。"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，這個事情我們7月10日開會時有當面要求，目前在他們網站上，我們同仁剛剛在點是點得進去的。"],["王委員世堅：對啊，你們到今天上午才上架把資料補全，不是嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：沒有，這是業者要補，我們自己是每一天都在公布，所以現在在食藥署的官方網站上，有440項產品已經公布。"],["王委員世堅：對，總噸數其實到今天才更正到正確數字嘛，在昨天之前你的總噸數還維持在一千三百多噸。","我現在要另外問你的是，這一次是說進口的巴西黃豆因為含水量高，所以造成後續製造上產生毒素苯駢芘，但是那些數量進來總共有59.9萬公噸，次長，你回去查一下，59.9萬公噸到底廠商用了多少？因為他們很可能只用一部分，剩下的他們到底怎麼處置，你們有沒有去追蹤？因為後續的問題要查我就不想問你了，你請回，你把我這句話帶回去：這些59.9萬公噸的黃豆到底下落是如何？已經用了多少？還有多少還沒用？"],["林次長靜儀：好。"],["王委員世堅：時間暫停，你請回。我請審計長。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請審計長。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：審計長，很多事我認為可能要由你下去查，大概行政調查才查得出來。"],["陳審計長瑞敏：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我要查的第一件事情，包括我剛剛請衛福部林次長他們回去查的，也麻煩您幫我了解一下，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員世堅：到底這些有問題的黃豆還有多少，現在下落如何？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好。"],["王委員世堅：第二點，很奇怪，在我們颱風假前，7月8日為止，所有的官方網站上總共有超標油品1,300公噸，怎麼才過了一個禮拜，颱風假放完以後到今天，暴增到5,756公噸！怎麼突然間一下子多了4,100公噸！這一點你回去釐清到底是怎麼樣？是這四大廠商心虛不敢報，還是他們在這當中打算有所隱瞞。","回收到現在為止，你看中聯的大豆沙拉油1,300公噸，到7月13日即前天為止，它只回收410公噸，回收的太少、太慢。7月7日通報的泰山，它通報了1,309公噸，結果只回收505公噸。南僑的部分，這個都是5月10日左右製造的，5月份製造的，它報了1305.9公噸，它還算是這裡面最誠實的，也才回收319公噸。最近7月12日又公布了福壽兩批也是有毒的大豆沙拉油，分別報了533.85公噸跟1,307公噸，結果回收部分，533公噸回收243公噸還算OK喔，有一半，而1,300公噸只回收162公噸。","整個統計下來，也就是這些毒油量總共5,756公噸，總回收1,641公噸，回收不到三成！天啊！有七成跑哪裡去？簡單講，就跑到我們每個消費者的肚子裡了啦！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我補充一下，不好意思。其實中聯這一批最早出問題的就是它其中一個油槽，然後那個是4月份最早……就是6月30日收到通報的，所以各位委員現在看到的1,300公噸是那一桶，就是那整個油槽的油1,300公噸。"],["王委員世堅：後面這4,000公噸？"],["林次長靜儀：後面是因為我們後來陸續得到通報發現，所以我們把中聯4月份到6月份共29批的油全部預防性下架，因此會出現這個比較高的數字，這是第二個部分跟委員補充。","第三個是這邊的回收跟下架，先講一個資訊，目前我們已經跟……我們持續以來就要求福懋、福壽跟泰山通知他們的下游廠商跟他們自己，所以把所有29批全部預防性下架，是全部下架，這裡面有一些回收是陸續的，比方說中聯已經超標的要回收，有些還在油槽裡頭，就是可能在下游廠商製造食品的油槽裡頭的，那批現在就直接還在那邊。"],["王委員世堅：所以你說這4,000公噸不一定是全部進到我們大家的肚子？"],["林次長靜儀：是，其中有一些是預防性，再來就是……"],["王委員世堅：次長，既然你上來了，你很勇敢！","我希望衛福部回去研究一下，甚至可以找法務部一起研究，要制定專法啦！什麼專法呢？就是說如果未來發生重大食品危害毒害事件的話，主管機關可以查扣這些違法黑心業者的財產，假扣押他們的財產，那麼這些查扣來的財產未來用來給付給受害者，包括受害的下游廠商，才求償有門！可不可以？你現在就可以做的一部分就是你可以要求健保局，很多受害的民眾現在腸胃不舒服或者發生其他更嚴重的事情，健保署所支出的醫藥診治費等等這些已經可以正式向這些危害的廠商求償。因為現在法律上允許的是，只有消保官針對民眾或者下游廠商真的檢具單據證明的才有部分集體訴訟，我覺得這還不夠，應該把衛福部的權限再擴大，因為食用品的部分出了問題，全民會一致要求的第一個單位就是直指衛福部啊！所以衛福部本來就應該要有更強烈的方式可以遏止這種情形。當然你們現在要求以後不能只有自主檢查，這是對的，但這只是一部分，我覺得要從根源讓這些傢伙、這些惡質廠商對自己的惡劣行徑付出慘痛的代價，這樣他們以後才不敢，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：好，相關機制我們會做一些研議。"],["王委員世堅：你回去研究一下制定專法，好不好？"],["林次長靜儀：好，我們會跟委員……"],["王委員世堅：因為你們是帶頭的第一個單位，所以你們有權力來制定這部分的專法，好不好？回去好好研究。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會跟相關單位研議，現在檢調也已經介入了，先跟委員報告。"],["王委員世堅：好。","審計長，我剛剛提的幾點你再回去……"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，我們遵照委員的意見……"],["王委員世堅：好不好？就是這些我們大家共同有的疑點必須查清楚，對社會交代，可以釋疑，好不好？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：好，尊重委員的意見。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，我們結束王世堅委員的質詢。","接下來請許忠信委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}