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sperx":[{"start":0.709,"end":23.402,"text":"請次長跟審計長可能還要再請教育部次長請莊廖次長好快速幾個問題我想先請教林次長好不好不好意思來林次長我先確認一下說在這段時間兩個多禮拜了齁那其實中央跟地方當然今天我們看到說左榮泰院長終於媒體報導寫改口啦就說中央地方應該要合作"},{"start":24.142,"end":48.034,"text":"我也認為啊因為全台2350萬人食藥署的主管機關講說重大突發性的全國食安事件是中央主管機關的責任跟地方政府大家互相配合合作是本來就應該那所以在稽查的過程裡面地方政府他掌握到有多少可能有問題的一個有品的時候的業者他需不需要公告讓國人知道地方嗎對"},{"start":49.434,"end":68.15,"text":"要啊 而且他也要讓我們知道啊是啊 那我想請教剛剛媒體又另外一個報導講說九號的行政院會卓榮泰還嗆說不滿台中為什麼要先公佈獨游的流向還說為什麼要搶快卓榮泰院長的意思是什麼是要地方政府不要公告"},{"start":68.69,"end":95.991,"text":"行政院會我沒有參加我不清楚實際的對談所以我也覺得很奇怪是說當地方政府如同你剛剛講是說要啊要公告因為大家地方政府有藍有綠今天只是說有執政縣市是藍的比較多但是我開中明就講中央地方本來就應該合作那如果說地方政府今天站在民眾的角度認為說民眾有知的權利公告了結果行政院長居然在行政院會裡面還嗆台中市政府說你為什麼要搶快"},{"start":97.111,"end":113.176,"text":"這是什麼心態啊第一行政院會我不在場我不清楚當時的對話所以那一天還有石崇良部長還扭曲兩位副市長的八言我們也覺得說匪夷所是不是啊依照慈安法就像剛剛提到的地方政府去查核地方政府發現有問題要跟我們通報"},{"start":113.976,"end":135.338,"text":"那我們其實在事件發生就是6月30接到通知之後7月1號那時候我們食藥署其實除了要求要下架之外這個流程事實上都是一直都跟地方政府合作也希望地方政府去包含統計下架的狀況去跟相關的業者去做相關後續的處理但是這個過程裡面我們會遇到因為它這個產品散在各個縣市所以"},{"start":136.019,"end":154.451,"text":"不同的地方的衛生局給我們的資訊時間都有落差所以後續這個狀況導致我們在給國人的資訊的部分事實上會有一個delay的狀況我們後來是要求相關包含中聯、泰山、福茂、福壽的業者他們這些資訊除了地方衛生局在稽查或地方衛生局去查核的過程"},{"start":155.251,"end":176.793,"text":"另外這三家業者所有資訊也要同步先到食藥署這邊讓我們可以即時第一線掌握不然我們其實食藥署的同仁是尊重地方縣市政府所以每天都在讓地方政府把資訊報上來這個部分導致了一些時間上的延遲所以我們後來是要求地方在業者讓地方政府得到資訊的同時報到食藥署來讓食藥署可以第一時間掌握好嘛"},{"start":177.553,"end":193.738,"text":"來兩個部分我讓你完整講完所以我這樣子我就更確定了那第一地方政府並沒有搶快第二如果說中央有什麼掌握不明確或是不了解的狀況其實業者他沒有及時的通報地方政府但不管怎麼樣"},{"start":194.858,"end":222.799,"text":"到9號了行政院會到9號了走龍太多還可以講出這個話那今天是媒體用獨家報導出來不然我們也不了解行政院會我也沒參加但我們更要求的是如果說到了9號這件事情是6月30號爆發但到了9號一個多禮拜過去了行政院長還有這樣的態度的話我說實在話我覺得很傲慢來我以為我對我沒有參加的會議我沒辦法評論好沒問題來那個教育部次長你剛剛有講了"},{"start":224.605,"end":247.791,"text":"全面下架這沒有問題現在5pp次本席已經問了第三天囉我希望今天能夠有一個答案5pp次總共5700公噸是有問題的油品你剛也特別回答其他委員講法是說有7個縣市是比較有這些問題油品的一個流入的對260校好那所以有多少數量"},{"start":249.226,"end":264.414,"text":"委員因為這個數量因為學校的公餐比較複雜他有公辦公營學校一定有進貨嘛就進貨他消耗了多少給學童施加度有三分之一的學校他是採用那個"},{"start":266.294,"end":290.778,"text":"外地的那個團散那個團散業者他不一定是做學校的他也有供外面的那我們學校在使用 那我們勾基了多少我現在就是勾基我們現在算出來就是我們趕快讓他下架對 趕快讓他下架這個是本來就應該做嘛下架完第二你不會有疑問嗎因為全國為什麼本市一直在追這個問題就是因為很多的家長反映到底我們學童有多少吃下肚"},{"start":291.198,"end":317.791,"text":"而我認為說這是最能夠掌握是為什麼因為你剛剛也提到99%的學校都有報食材登錄平台也因此我們可以溯源去追蹤那我們現在已經知道五個P號有問題5700多公噸那5700多公噸在過去這三個月有多少食材是被學校使用的就這麼簡單嘛有多少油的量是被學校使用的國小 國中 幼兒園 高中"},{"start":318.888,"end":344.161,"text":"我們現在只能夠去查出說有多少學校有使用那個品項因為那個品項它在食材登錄裡面是學校使用的部分所以現在還沒有統計出來我就說要跟委員報告說我們很難去做這樣統計怎麼會呢有的是公辦公營 有的是公辦民營有的是採校外公餐校外公餐的業者這就是我們食材登錄的用我今天一個學校有一千人"},{"start":344.821,"end":352.556,"text":"我耗損了多少肉品我耗損了多少油品我過去我可以全面追蹤不然我們這樣的一個食材登錄的平台意義在哪"},{"start":354.523,"end":382.738,"text":"為什麼市長我相信你也是維恩父母你就想一件事情現在所有人都告訴我們行政院未來會幫忙做什麼幫忙做團體訴訟那如果說我們都不知道我們受害的學童有多少這沒問題就是我們我受害的學童吃了多少有問題也有的話我怎麼有辦法去要求因為那個賠償賠償出來之後我們會去盤說多少學校多少學校使用然後吃的學生有多少我想這是重要的"},{"start":383.699,"end":404.657,"text":"所以本席現在就要問這個答案但是到目前我問了三天從第一天我問部長昨天我問行政院院長結果部長還給我扯基隆我說你如果說你要扯基隆的數據那你當基隆的教育局局長就好啦你是全國的教育部部長你當然要告訴我中華民國的學校數字因為現在第一步我們就是先讓他下架"},{"start":405.177,"end":417.765,"text":"下架之後他買的剩餘多少下架6月30號是不是通報就已經下架了嘛現在我們在問的是今天是7月15號已經過了15天整整兩個禮拜了還沒有辦法盤點出來嗎那什麼時候可以盤點出來來 次長什麼時候能夠盤點出來來 請次長盡速的給答案兩週好不好還要兩週"},{"start":428.257,"end":444.165,"text":"已經兩週過去還要再兩週因為各地方政府真的他們那個共產形態不一樣然後他們辦理退的還有剩的下架的他到底怎麼樣他還要花一點時間去算因為第一我們已經有把有問題的有就先下架了那他們也要去現在是"},{"start":444.685,"end":472.524,"text":"市長大家都知道有問題喔下架現在你要在市面上找有問題喔還找不到為什麼因為業者都會自主管理看到台三看到貨啊那個品牌他都不敢再放了本席現在要問的是過去四到六月五批五千多公噸不是小數目會不會有第六批第七批不知道而我們現在只有檢查四月到六月有沒有一月到三月的也不知道所以我們一開始是擴大清查"},{"start":475.165,"end":500.681,"text":"本席先 我們之後再把相關資料給你但是我等你兩週兩週後告訴財政委員會 告訴本席我們到底這四到六月有多少有問題的郵品是流入校園數量有多少連同衛福部現在在稽查的有沒有可能有第七批 第八批因為衛福部一個禮拜內會把二十九批全部都稽查完畢有可能有第六批 第七批 不知道但是確認"},{"start":502.682,"end":511.146,"text":"兩個禮拜內給本席跟財政委會請交易部兩個星期之內我們其實也一直在清查孟愷委員以及財委會相關的資料再幾分鐘就好我簡報一個簡報秀一下就好來那個次長林次長"},{"start":519.469,"end":540.686,"text":"來林市長這個是一個那個發票業者他們自主前天就做出了一個平台通報就說你可以去查你過去的一個消費紀錄你登錄你只要有做這樣的一個發票載具那你就可以查然後就可以看到是說你過去這三個月有買到哪一些是有問題的品項我覺得這做得很快也很"},{"start":541.807,"end":566.27,"text":"讓人家安心很多人使用媒體前天報導那我是想問說這樣子的一個機制我們能不能有更擴大一個學習的方向我們會多方學習跟多方改善好 市長這個學習一下如果說可以的話我也希望能夠有官方的版本讓民眾可以更去了解就是說我過去這段時間如果說有消費真的有買到有問題的油品的相關的評價先讓我有人報告就是說這個部分"},{"start":566.73,"end":594.74,"text":"它有就我今天委員很多委員提到的這個部分它有跟針對從用發票這邊去勾但是有一些它其實有散在有些不是用載具的所以我們現在食藥署當然固定另外一個可能大家會覺得比較愚笨但是我們的固定公佈就是我們把440項所有受到影響的產品全部都公佈在食藥署的網站上這個是業者他做的很多民眾用了覺得方便是我知道那我們有速發部我們有相關這個更先進的單位那你能不能來配合是說業者"},{"start":596.181,"end":612.987,"text":"你看那個媒體報導他說他花了兩個小時就做出這樣的一個APP我們會再跟財政部這邊討論因為他現在到發票那如果沒有發票就是說這個是發票這邊我們會跟財政部再勾結好 請衛福部長這邊也來協助民眾來做這樣的勾結那最後審計長你就 抱歉讓你站在那裡久了我沒有時間但是我就說審計單位拜託一下"},{"start":619.435,"end":637.922,"text":"20%神秘的數字當初為什麼這件事情會爆發那麼嚴重就是因為在第一時間食藥署告訴我們是說20%以內不用下架國人覺得華人覺得奇怪你不是當初講說食安玲瓏人嗎那20%怎麼來的昨天的行政院長的專案報告你如果說去看一下那整篇啊20%消失了"},{"start":639.082,"end":664.975,"text":"整本裡面找不到20%這個數字代表啥代表公好像現在政府也在轉向當初講20%不用下架然後後來被罵了被爆了才說全面要下架那到底20%怎麼來的誰決定的做決策的是誰拜託沈記長這邊能夠來調查一下可以嗎可以 我們會做了解好 謝謝好 了解之後給委員會完整的說明謝謝謝謝孟愷委員接下來請鍾嘉賓 鍾嘉賓 鍾嘉賓委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:10+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:11+08:00","text":"主席謝謝，麻煩請審計長及衛福部次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:10.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:12.871000+08:00","text":"請次長及審計長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:12.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:15.492000+08:00","text":"可能還要請教育部次長，麻煩。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:15.492000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:17.353000+08:00","text":"請張廖次長。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:17.353000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:20.835000+08:00","text":"好，快速幾個問題我想先請教林次長，好不好，不好意思。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:20.835000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:21.835000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:21.455000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:57.414000+08:00","text":"林次長，我先確認一下，在這段時間有兩個多禮拜了，其實中央跟地方……當然今天我們看到卓榮泰院長終於……媒體報導寫改口啦，就是中央、地方應該要合作，我也認同，因為全臺2,350萬人，食藥署的主管機關講說重大突發性的全國食安事件是中央主管機關的責任，本來就應該與地方政府互相配合及合作，所以在稽查的過程裡面，地方政府掌握到可能有問題油品的業者，它需不需要公告讓國人知道？","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:57.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:14:58.034000+08:00","text":"地方嗎？對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:14:59.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:00.855000+08:00","text":"要啊，而且它也要讓我們知道。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:01.416000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:14.347000+08:00","text":"是啊，那我想請教，剛剛媒體又有另外一篇報導，9號的行政院院會卓榮泰還嗆：不滿臺中為什麼要先公布毒油的流向，還說為什麼要搶快？","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:15.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:16.889000+08:00","text":"請問卓榮泰院長的意思是什麼？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:16.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:18.130000+08:00","text":"是希望地方政府不要公告？","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:18.690000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:22.013000+08:00","text":"報告委員，行政院院會我沒有參加，我不清楚實際的對談是什麼。","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:22.013000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:45.971000+08:00","text":"是，所以我也覺得很奇怪，當地方政府……如同你剛剛所講「要公告」，地方政府有藍有綠，只是今天執政縣市是藍的比較多，但是我開宗明義就講中央、地方本來就應該合作，如果地方政府今天站在民眾的角度，認為民眾有知的權利，公告了，結果行政院院長居然還在行政院院會裡面嗆臺中市政府：你為什麼要搶快？","quality":0.928},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:47.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:47.891000+08:00","text":"這是什麼心態？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:48.592000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:52.053000+08:00","text":"委員，第一，行政院院會我不在場，我不清楚當時的對話。","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:52.053000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:53.053000+08:00","text":"但是第二個部分……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:52.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:56.154000+08:00","text":"是，所以那一天石崇良部長還扭曲兩位副市長的發言。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:56.154000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:57.154000+08:00","text":"委員，我可以補充一下……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:56.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:15:57.174000+08:00","text":"我們也覺得匪夷所思。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:15:58.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:06.492000+08:00","text":"依照食安法，就像剛剛提到的，地方政府去查核，當地方政府發現有問題要向我們通報，其實在事件發生就是6月30接到通知之後，7月1號食藥署除了要求下架之外，事實上相關流程一直都跟地方政府合作，也希望地方政府協助統計下架的狀況並與相關業者做後續處理，但是在相關過程中我們遇到……因為這些產品散在各個縣市，加上不同地方的衛生局給我們的資訊時間都有落差，因此導致後續我們提供國人資訊的部分，事實上會有delay的狀況，我們後來要求包含中聯、泰山、福懋、福壽等業者，這些資訊除了地方衛生局在稽查或查核的過程，另外這三家業者所有資訊也要同步先送到食藥署，讓我們可以及時第一線掌握，其實食藥署的同仁是尊重地方縣市政府，所以每天都讓地方政府把資訊報上來，這個部分導致了一些時間上的延遲，所以我們後來要求業者在提供地方政府資訊的同時也通報食藥署，讓食藥署可以第一時間掌握。","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:06.653000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:08.874000+08:00","text":"好，兩個部分，我讓你完整講完。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:08.874000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:09.874000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:09.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:14.235000+08:00","text":"所以這樣子我就更確定了，第一，地方政府並沒有搶快。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:14.915000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:21.857000+08:00","text":"第二，如果中央有掌握不明確或是不了解的狀況，其實是業者沒有即時通報地方和中央政府。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:21.857000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:22.857000+08:00","text":"對，前端的時候。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:22.377000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:46.174000+08:00","text":"但不管怎麼樣，到了9號行政院院會卓榮泰都還可以講出這種話，今天是媒體獨家報導出來，不然我們也不了解，行政院院會我也沒參加，但我們更要要求的是……這件事情是6月30號爆發，但到了9號，一個多禮拜過去了，行政院院長還有這樣的態度，說實在話，我覺得很傲慢。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:47.855000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:49.136000+08:00","text":"委員，對於沒有參加的會議我沒辦法評論。","quality":0.824},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:49.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:17:50.177000+08:00","text":"好，沒有問題。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:17:50.577000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:15.210000+08:00","text":"教育部次長，你剛剛有講全面下架，這沒有問題；現在針對5批批次，本席已經問了第3天了，我希望今天能夠有一個答案，5批批次總共五千七百多公噸的問題油品，你剛剛也特別回答其他的委員，有7個縣市有比較多這些問題油品的流入。對，260校。","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:15.830000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:17.771000+08:00","text":"好，所以有多少數量？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:19.226000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:24.529000+08:00","text":"委員，這個數量……因為學校的供餐比較複雜，它有公辦公營、有公……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:24.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:29.672000+08:00","text":"學校一定有進貨嘛，進貨消耗了多少給學童吃下肚……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:31.613000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:42.380000+08:00","text":"不是，委員你聽我說，不是學校進貨……有三分之一的學校是採用外地的團膳，因為團膳業者不一定是專做學校，他也有供應外面的部分，我們學校在使用……","quality":0.639},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:42.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:43.161000+08:00","text":"我們勾稽了多少？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:43.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:44.202000+08:00","text":"現在就是勾稽……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:44.882000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:47.745000+08:00","text":"我們現在算出來就是趕快讓它下架……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:48.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:53.130000+08:00","text":"對，趕快讓它下架，這本來就應該要做，下架完，第二，你不會有疑問嗎？","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:54.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:18:56.053000+08:00","text":"為什麼本席一直在追這個問題？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:18:56.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:00.077000+08:00","text":"就是因為有很多的家長反映，到底學童吃下肚的量有多少？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:01.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:04.680000+08:00","text":"而我認為這是最能夠掌握的，為什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:04.680000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:11.763000+08:00","text":"因為你剛剛也提到99%的學校都有申報食材登錄平台，因此我們可以溯源追蹤。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:11.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:21.388000+08:00","text":"我們現在已經知道5個批號共五千七百多公噸有問題，那麼五千七百多公噸在過去3個月有多少食材被學校使用？","quality":0.674},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:21.688000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:22.388000+08:00","text":"就這麼簡單嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:23.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:25.370000+08:00","text":"有多少數量的油被學校使用了？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:26.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:27.771000+08:00","text":"包含國小、國中、幼兒園、高中。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:28.888000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:36.932000+08:00","text":"我們現在只能夠查出有多少學校使用那個品項，因為該品項在食材登錄裡面是學校使用的部分，那……","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:37.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:39.753000+08:00","text":"所以現在還沒有統計出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:39.753000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:42.395000+08:00","text":"我要跟委員報告，我們很難做這樣統計，因為……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:42.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:42.595000+08:00","text":"怎麼會呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:43.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:49.959000+08:00","text":"有的是公辦公營，有的是公辦民營，有的則是採校外供餐，而校外供餐的業者……","quality":0.871},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:50.139000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:56.344000+08:00","text":"次長，這就是食材登錄的用意，今天一間學校有1,000人，耗損了多少肉品？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:56.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:19:57.727000+08:00","text":"耗損了多少油品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:19:59.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:02.536000+08:00","text":"應該可以全面追蹤過去的資訊，不然這個食材登錄平台的意義在哪？","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:05.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:15.509000+08:00","text":"次長，我相信你也是為人父母，請你思考一件事情，現在所有人都告訴我們，行政院未來會幫忙進行團體訴訟。是。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:15.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:18.070000+08:00","text":"如果我們都不知道受害的學童有多少……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:18.910000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:19.451000+08:00","text":"這沒問題，就是我們……","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:19.971000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:23.413000+08:00","text":"不知道受害的學童吃了多少問題油的話，怎麼有辦法要求？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:23.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:31.537000+08:00","text":"因為那部分的賠償出來之後，我們會盤點有多少學校使用、吃的學生有多少？","quality":0.839},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:31.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:33.839000+08:00","text":"我想這是重要的，所以將來……","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:34.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:46.830000+08:00","text":"是，所以本席現在就是要問這個答案，但是目前我問了3天，從第一天問部長、昨天問行政院院長，結果部長還給我扯到基隆，我說如果要扯基隆的數據，那你當基隆的教育局局長就好啦！","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:47.150000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:52.215000+08:00","text":"你是全國的教育部部長，你當然要告訴我中華民國全部學校的數據。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:52.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:56.838000+08:00","text":"委員，因為第一步就是先讓它下架，下架之後它買的剩餘多少……","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:56.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:20:59.600000+08:00","text":"下架，6月30號是不是已經通報下架了？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:20:59.600000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:00.600000+08:00","text":"對、對、對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:00.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:04.103000+08:00","text":"現在我們在問的是今天7月15號，已經過了15天，整整兩個禮拜了……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:04.103000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:05.103000+08:00","text":"我們在這個時候還是必須要拜託學校清查退貨的……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:04.303000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:04.923000+08:00","text":"還沒有辦法盤點出來嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:06.444000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.024000+08:00","text":"什麼時候能夠盤點出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.024000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.345000+08:00","text":"請次長儘速的給答案。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.725000+08:00","text":"兩週好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:07.765000+08:00","text":"還要兩週？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:18.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:19.958000+08:00","text":"已經兩週過去，還要再兩週？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:19.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:33.204000+08:00","text":"因為各地方政府供餐型態真的不一樣，加上他們辦理退的、剩的及下架的情形到底如何，還要花一點時間去算，因為第一，我們已經把有問題的油先下架了，現在他們也要去……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:34.785000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:39.368000+08:00","text":"次長，大家都知道有問題的油下架了，現在你要在市面上找有問題的油還找不到，為什麼？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:39.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:44.271000+08:00","text":"因為業者都會自主管理，看到泰山、福壽等品牌都不敢再放了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:44.271000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:45.271000+08:00","text":"學校有三種供餐型態，有些真的是外面供餐。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:45.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:53.518000+08:00","text":"本席現在要問的是，過去4月到6月，5批五千多公噸不是小數目，會不會有第6批、第7批？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:53.738000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:56.299000+08:00","text":"不知道，而我們現在只有檢查4月到6月……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:56.299000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:57.299000+08:00","text":"我們對這部分也很小心。","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:56.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:21:57.941000+08:00","text":"有沒有1月到3月的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:21:58.081000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:00.482000+08:00","text":"也不知道，所以……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:01.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:05.365000+08:00","text":"委員，我們一開始是擴大清查，有疑似的我們就清查。本席……","quality":0.522},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:05.365000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:06.365000+08:00","text":"請儘速做結論。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:06.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:07.887000+08:00","text":"我們之後再把相關資料給你。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:08.007000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:18.634000+08:00","text":"本席耐住怒火，但是我等你兩週，兩週後告訴財政委員會及本席，到底4月到6月有多少數量的問題油品流入校園？","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:18.634000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:19.934000+08:00","text":"好，我們會跟地方政府……","quality":0},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:19.934000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:24.277000+08:00","text":"連同衛福部正在稽查的，有沒有可能有第7批、第8批？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:24.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:34.623000+08:00","text":"因為衛福部一個禮拜內會把29批全部稽查完畢，可能有第6批、第7批，目前不知道，但是確認後請在兩個禮拜內給本席及財政委員會資料。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:34.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:37.124000+08:00","text":"請教育部在兩個星期之內給孟楷委員以及財委會相關資料。","quality":0.32},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:37.124000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:38.405000+08:00","text":"好，我們其實也一直在清查。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:39.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:40.646000+08:00","text":"主席，不好意思，再1分鐘秀一個簡報就好。","quality":0.562},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:41.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:22:41.026000+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:22:41.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:15.451000+08:00","text":"林次長，本席現在出示的是發票業者前天自主開發的一個平台，就是你可以去查自己過去的消費紀錄，只要有發票載具，登入之後就可以查到自己過去3個月有沒有買到什麼有問題的品項，我覺得這個做得很快，也很讓人家安心，很多人在使用，媒體前天也有報導。","quality":0.72},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:15.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:20.135000+08:00","text":"我是想問，對於這樣的機制，你們能不能擴大做為學習的方向？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:20.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:22.517000+08:00","text":"我們會多方學習、多方改善，不過這個部分……","quality":0.647},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:23.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:34.608000+08:00","text":"次長，這個要學習一下，如果可以的話，我也希望能夠有官方的版本，讓民眾可以更加瞭解自己過去這段時間是不是真的有買到問題油品製成的相關品項。","quality":0.794},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:34.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:55.737000+08:00","text":"先跟委員報告，就今天很多委員提到的這個部分，它有從發票這邊去勾，但有些是沒用載具的，所以我們食藥署有一個做法，雖然大家可能會覺得比較愚笨，但是我們會固定公布，就是我們把440項、所有受到影響的產品全部都公布在食藥署的網站上。","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:55.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:58.178000+08:00","text":"次長，這是業者做的，很多民眾用了覺得方便……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:58.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:23:58.698000+08:00","text":"是，我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:23:59.218000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:04.440000+08:00","text":"我們有數發部，也有更先進的相關單位，能不能來配合呢？","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:06.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:10.343000+08:00","text":"你看媒體報導，他說他花了2個小時就做出這樣一個app。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:10.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:15.885000+08:00","text":"我們會再跟財政部討論，因為它牽涉到發票，如果沒有發票……就是有關發票的部分，我們會再跟財政部溝通。","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:16.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:19.126000+08:00","text":"好，請衛福部也來協助民眾做這樣的勾稽。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:19.806000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:32.716000+08:00","text":"最後，抱歉讓審計長站了那麼久，因為我沒有時間了，所以我就拜託審計單位，針對20%這個神秘的數字……這件事情為什麼會變得這麼嚴重？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:32.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:41.179000+08:00","text":"就是因為第一時間食藥署告訴我們問題油含量20%以內的產品不用下架，舉國譁然，覺得奇怪：你們當初不是說「食安零容忍」嗎？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:41.900000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:42.340000+08:00","text":"20%是怎麼來的？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:42.800000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:47.902000+08:00","text":"如果你看一下昨天行政院長的專案報告，「20%」消失了！","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:49.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:51.903000+08:00","text":"整本裡面找不到「20%」這個說法，這代表什麼？","quality":0.706},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:24:52.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:24:59.687000+08:00","text":"代表政府現在好像也在轉向，當初講含量20%以下的產品不用下架，後來被罵了、被爆了，才說要全面下架。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:00.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:01.568000+08:00","text":"那麼到底20%是怎麼來的？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:02.109000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:02.309000+08:00","text":"誰決定的？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:02.609000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:04.070000+08:00","text":"做決策的是誰？","quality":1},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:04.070000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:07.571000+08:00","text":"拜託審計長能夠來調查一下，可以嗎？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"陳審計長瑞敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:07.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:08.652000+08:00","text":"可以，我們會做瞭解。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"洪委員孟楷","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:09.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:10.073000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:10.733000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:13.534000+08:00","text":"瞭解之後，請給委員會完整的說明，謝謝。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:13.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:14.235000+08:00","text":"也謝謝孟楷委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:14.235000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:14.975000+08:00","text":"接下來請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員。","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:15.475000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:16.903571+08:00","text":"王育敏委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1027,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時14分）主席謝謝，麻煩請審計長及衛福部次長。"],["主席：請次長及審計長。"],["洪委員孟楷：可能還要請教育部次長，麻煩。"],["主席：請張廖次長。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，快速幾個問題我想先請教林次長，好不好，不好意思。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：林次長，我先確認一下，在這段時間有兩個多禮拜了，其實中央跟地方……當然今天我們看到卓榮泰院長終於……媒體報導寫改口啦，就是中央、地方應該要合作，我也認同，因為全臺2,350萬人，食藥署的主管機關講說重大突發性的全國食安事件是中央主管機關的責任，本來就應該與地方政府互相配合及合作，所以在稽查的過程裡面，地方政府掌握到可能有問題油品的業者，它需不需要公告讓國人知道？"],["林次長靜儀：地方嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：對。"],["林次長靜儀：要啊，而且它也要讓我們知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊，那我想請教，剛剛媒體又有另外一篇報導，9號的行政院院會卓榮泰還嗆：不滿臺中為什麼要先公布毒油的流向，還說為什麼要搶快？請問卓榮泰院長的意思是什麼？是希望地方政府不要公告？"],["林次長靜儀：報告委員，行政院院會我沒有參加，我不清楚實際的對談是什麼。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以我也覺得很奇怪，當地方政府……如同你剛剛所講「要公告」，地方政府有藍有綠，只是今天執政縣市是藍的比較多，但是我開宗明義就講中央、地方本來就應該合作，如果地方政府今天站在民眾的角度，認為民眾有知的權利，公告了，結果行政院院長居然還在行政院院會裡面嗆臺中市政府：你為什麼要搶快？這是什麼心態？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，第一，行政院院會我不在場，我不清楚當時的對話。但是第二個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以那一天石崇良部長還扭曲兩位副市長的發言。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我可以補充一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們也覺得匪夷所思。"],["林次長靜儀：依照食安法，就像剛剛提到的，地方政府去查核，當地方政府發現有問題要向我們通報，其實在事件發生就是6月30接到通知之後，7月1號食藥署除了要求下架之外，事實上相關流程一直都跟地方政府合作，也希望地方政府協助統計下架的狀況並與相關業者做後續處理，但是在相關過程中我們遇到……因為這些產品散在各個縣市，加上不同地方的衛生局給我們的資訊時間都有落差，因此導致後續我們提供國人資訊的部分，事實上會有delay的狀況，我們後來要求包含中聯、泰山、福懋、福壽等業者，這些資訊除了地方衛生局在稽查或查核的過程，另外這三家業者所有資訊也要同步先送到食藥署，讓我們可以及時第一線掌握，其實食藥署的同仁是尊重地方縣市政府，所以每天都讓地方政府把資訊報上來，這個部分導致了一些時間上的延遲，所以我們後來要求業者在提供地方政府資訊的同時也通報食藥署，讓食藥署可以第一時間掌握。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，兩個部分，我讓你完整講完。"],["林次長靜儀：謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這樣子我就更確定了，第一，地方政府並沒有搶快。第二，如果中央有掌握不明確或是不了解的狀況，其實是業者沒有即時通報地方和中央政府。"],["林次長靜儀：對，前端的時候。"],["洪委員孟楷：但不管怎麼樣，到了9號行政院院會卓榮泰都還可以講出這種話，今天是媒體獨家報導出來，不然我們也不了解，行政院院會我也沒參加，但我們更要要求的是……這件事情是6月30號爆發，但到了9號，一個多禮拜過去了，行政院院長還有這樣的態度，說實在話，我覺得很傲慢。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，對於沒有參加的會議我沒辦法評論。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有問題。","教育部次長，你剛剛有講全面下架，這沒有問題；現在針對5批批次，本席已經問了第3天了，我希望今天能夠有一個答案，5批批次總共五千七百多公噸的問題油品，你剛剛也特別回答其他的委員，有7個縣市有比較多這些問題油品的流入。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，260校。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以有多少數量？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，這個數量……因為學校的供餐比較複雜，它有公辦公營、有公……"],["洪委員孟楷：學校一定有進貨嘛，進貨消耗了多少給學童吃下肚……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，委員你聽我說，不是學校進貨……有三分之一的學校是採用外地的團膳，因為團膳業者不一定是專做學校，他也有供應外面的部分，我們學校在使用……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們勾稽了多少？現在就是勾稽……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在算出來就是趕快讓它下架……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，趕快讓它下架，這本來就應該要做，下架完，第二，你不會有疑問嗎？為什麼本席一直在追這個問題？就是因為有很多的家長反映，到底學童吃下肚的量有多少？而我認為這是最能夠掌握的，為什麼？因為你剛剛也提到99%的學校都有申報食材登錄平台，因此我們可以溯源追蹤。","我們現在已經知道5個批號共五千七百多公噸有問題，那麼五千七百多公噸在過去3個月有多少食材被學校使用？就這麼簡單嘛！有多少數量的油被學校使用了？包含國小、國中、幼兒園、高中。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在只能夠查出有多少學校使用那個品項，因為該品項在食材登錄裡面是學校使用的部分，那……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在還沒有統計出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我要跟委員報告，我們很難做這樣統計，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼會呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：有的是公辦公營，有的是公辦民營，有的則是採校外供餐，而校外供餐的業者……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這就是食材登錄的用意，今天一間學校有1,000人，耗損了多少肉品？耗損了多少油品？應該可以全面追蹤過去的資訊，不然這個食材登錄平台的意義在哪？次長，我相信你也是為人父母，請你思考一件事情，現在所有人都告訴我們，行政院未來會幫忙進行團體訴訟。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們都不知道受害的學童有多少……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這沒問題，就是我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：不知道受害的學童吃了多少問題油的話，怎麼有辦法要求？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為那部分的賠償出來之後，我們會盤點有多少學校使用、吃的學生有多少？我想這是重要的，所以將來……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席現在就是要問這個答案，但是目前我問了3天，從第一天問部長、昨天問行政院院長，結果部長還給我扯到基隆，我說如果要扯基隆的數據，那你當基隆的教育局局長就好啦！你是全國的教育部部長，你當然要告訴我中華民國全部學校的數據。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，因為第一步就是先讓它下架，下架之後它買的剩餘多少……"],["洪委員孟楷：下架，6月30號是不是已經通報下架了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在我們在問的是今天7月15號，已經過了15天，整整兩個禮拜了……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們在這個時候還是必須要拜託學校清查退貨的……"],["洪委員孟楷：還沒有辦法盤點出來嗎？什麼時候能夠盤點出來？"],["主席：請次長儘速的給答案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：兩週好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：還要兩週？已經兩週過去，還要再兩週？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為各地方政府供餐型態真的不一樣，加上他們辦理退的、剩的及下架的情形到底如何，還要花一點時間去算，因為第一，我們已經把有問題的油先下架了，現在他們也要去……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，大家都知道有問題的油下架了，現在你要在市面上找有問題的油還找不到，為什麼？因為業者都會自主管理，看到泰山、福壽等品牌都不敢再放了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：學校有三種供餐型態，有些真的是外面供餐。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席現在要問的是，過去4月到6月，5批五千多公噸不是小數目，會不會有第6批、第7批？不知道，而我們現在只有檢查4月到6月……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們對這部分也很小心。"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有1月到3月的？也不知道，所以……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我們一開始是擴大清查，有疑似的我們就清查。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席……"],["主席：請儘速做結論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們之後再把相關資料給你。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席耐住怒火，但是我等你兩週，兩週後告訴財政委員會及本席，到底4月到6月有多少數量的問題油品流入校園？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會跟地方政府……"],["洪委員孟楷：連同衛福部正在稽查的，有沒有可能有第7批、第8批？因為衛福部一個禮拜內會把29批全部稽查完畢，可能有第6批、第7批，目前不知道，但是確認後請在兩個禮拜內給本席及財政委員會資料。"],["主席：請教育部在兩個星期之內給孟楷委員以及財委會相關資料。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們其實也一直在清查。"],["洪委員孟楷：主席，不好意思，再1分鐘秀一個簡報就好。請林次長。","林次長，本席現在出示的是發票業者前天自主開發的一個平台，就是你可以去查自己過去的消費紀錄，只要有發票載具，登入之後就可以查到自己過去3個月有沒有買到什麼有問題的品項，我覺得這個做得很快，也很讓人家安心，很多人在使用，媒體前天也有報導。我是想問，對於這樣的機制，你們能不能擴大做為學習的方向？"],["林次長靜儀：我們會多方學習、多方改善，不過這個部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這個要學習一下，如果可以的話，我也希望能夠有官方的版本，讓民眾可以更加瞭解自己過去這段時間是不是真的有買到問題油品製成的相關品項。"],["林次長靜儀：先跟委員報告，就今天很多委員提到的這個部分，它有從發票這邊去勾，但有些是沒用載具的，所以我們食藥署有一個做法，雖然大家可能會覺得比較愚笨，但是我們會固定公布，就是我們把440項、所有受到影響的產品全部都公布在食藥署的網站上。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這是業者做的，很多民眾用了覺得方便……"],["林次長靜儀：是，我知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有數發部，也有更先進的相關單位，能不能來配合呢？你看媒體報導，他說他花了2個小時就做出這樣一個app。"],["林次長靜儀：我們會再跟財政部討論，因為它牽涉到發票，如果沒有發票……就是有關發票的部分，我們會再跟財政部溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請衛福部也來協助民眾做這樣的勾稽。","最後，抱歉讓審計長站了那麼久，因為我沒有時間了，所以我就拜託審計單位，針對20%這個神秘的數字……這件事情為什麼會變得這麼嚴重？就是因為第一時間食藥署告訴我們問題油含量20%以內的產品不用下架，舉國譁然，覺得奇怪：你們當初不是說「食安零容忍」嗎？20%是怎麼來的？如果你看一下昨天行政院長的專案報告，「20%」消失了！整本裡面找不到「20%」這個說法，這代表什麼？代表政府現在好像也在轉向，當初講含量20%以下的產品不用下架，後來被罵了、被爆了，才說要全面下架。那麼到底20%是怎麼來的？誰決定的？做決策的是誰？拜託審計長能夠來調查一下，可以嗎？"],["陳審計長瑞敏：可以，我們會做瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：瞭解之後，請給委員會完整的說明，謝謝。也謝謝孟楷委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員。","王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}