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到底誰的說法為準這兩件事情都受影響原料跟製程都是影響所以我們現在對於你上午的回答就有誤導上午有委員在追問你巴西黃豆的時候你說跟豆子沒有關係說有其他的油品廠用到豆子對 因為有別的油廠也有用到巴西的豆子所以你這個說法太武斷 你要不要收回來我這一次強調七月五號是專家學者的會議我們這裡面對於 當然專家學者會議我們後續還會再召開"},{"start":133.342,"end":150.487,"text":"那我專家這邊也都認為說還要再針對所以你不能排除巴西黃豆啊我不用排除巴西黃豆你早上回答賴志寶委員我聽到的就是這樣問題不是那個巴西那個問題是豆的問題那就是巴西進口的黃豆它的含水量比較高嗎接下來我要問你我上個禮拜就問過部長喔"},{"start":151.587,"end":175.333,"text":"巴西黃豆的流向如果專家會議有指指巴西黃豆含水量高的話那我查過今年以來已經是70萬噸的這個巴西黃豆的進口去年有87萬噸我上個禮拜問你們說掌握這一些巴西黃豆的流向沒有除了中聯到底進了多少其他油廠進了多少上個禮拜沒有答案你們現在答案出來了嗎好來你講"},{"start":177.634,"end":205.782,"text":"就是說今年1月到5月巴西進來60萬公噸那在前端就是在前端黃豆進來的時候那時候有查總共有15家業者有做輸入那這15家業者用的最多的是大統益美蘭蕾跟福壽這是三個大統益不是中聯我這邊的資料是大統益那大統益在這個南區我們食藥署南區那邊7月8號有再去做抽驗是合格的"},{"start":206.562,"end":219.274,"text":"那再來是說它的豆合格還是它的油品合格油你們是抽幾月到幾月的我們今年7月8號去抽驗抽幾月的油品我們這邊抽到的是現場的七槽"},{"start":221.166,"end":247.371,"text":"現場那它顯的呢因為如果4到6月現在週年爆發的是4到6月你們有沒有抽4到6月的郵品這邊我們他們自己有流樣所以今年他們每個月有流14批的樣那我們另外也有再去抽那驗到的結果呢4到6月驗出來的都沒有問題都符合標準目前所以他們是同一批痘有嗎要確認喔你不要到時候又爆發出來有問題喔"},{"start":251.141,"end":270.738,"text":"其他還在檢驗當中那我們現在有一件是檢驗合格好 還在檢驗中我覺得這件事情到目前為止你們獨有發生的原因都還沒有查清楚你們就急著要讓一些預防性下架商品上架這個是有問題的因為你一定要把原因查清楚之後你才知道問題發生在哪裡"},{"start":272.099,"end":297.591,"text":"就像你早上在回答委員的問題的時候你們現在一下子說是這個黃豆有問題巴西黃豆含水量過高專家學者會議然後一下子你又說是中聯製程它的製程有問題你們都還沒有十足把握的時候匆匆忙忙要讓這些商品再上架我認為是不可取的第一個我要講的是食安事件你不只是4到6月現在的預防性下架"},{"start":298.591,"end":323.488,"text":"還有你還要向上溯源向上追查我就問中聯它1到3月的油品它還有樣品嗎你們還查得到它1到3月的確定沒有問題嗎我們現在對於中聯的就是現在是4到6月份我們正在驗那是不是要往回追溯我先跟委員報告就是說至少以當地的主管機關它在113年114年驗的都合格這是我們現在能夠掌握到的部分"},{"start":324.437,"end":346.782,"text":"所以你現在到底能不能保證它之前四月以前都沒有問題這個委員我們只能說現在的資料以過去我們台中市政府衛生局驗的然後跟我們現在四月份拿到的資料往下驗的這兩個部分我們能處理那至於說過去那段時間因為有一些廠商他們可以有一些自主檢驗的部分這個是不是容我們再回去跟廠商調過去一到三月他們自主檢驗的"},{"start":347.182,"end":358.148,"text":"今天我要告訴你的就是把原因查清楚是解決下一次食安事件不能再發生的一個很重要的關鍵但是你們現在對於是不是巴西黃豆黃豆有問題還是中聯的製程有問題你們現在都還沒有十足的把握我要求你們要盡快把你們現在一個是中聯所有的還有二十幾批你還沒有公布喔現在還在驗喔所以你這個結果都還沒出來之前"},{"start":376.278,"end":391.756,"text":"你根本就不應該讓這些有疑慮的商品快速的上架我覺得你這樣子你真的都公佈完確定沒有問題之後然後你所有的預防性下架這些你再一次驗然後再上架國人才會安心你這樣匆匆忙忙其實對國人來講他其實是不安心"},{"start":394.959,"end":421.946,"text":"會造成市場秩序更混亂而已所以這個部分我希望你們可以把握這個原則那我就問你你現在所有追查另外的20P的21P的到底什麼時候會整個結果出來目前我們有24P然後有52項產品因為有些不是從中聯有些是從它後面就是其他的廠商這邊的資料到底什麼時候整個完整結果會出來院長要求我們一週內要把所有的數據檢查完成所以下個禮拜幾禮拜三禮拜一"},{"start":423.376,"end":440.632,"text":"今天是禮拜三你們的Date Line到底是哪一天我們現在大家都在趕 整個實驗室都在趕還有我要求剛剛講的大同益的部分他同樣有進口巴西的黃豆而且他進口很多那這個部分你們現在驗的結果還沒有出來的是不是一週後也可以"},{"start":441.172,"end":470.352,"text":"同時公布我們現在盡速的做 交情證盡速在演好 國人要的是一個真相然後要的是行政院長一個真誠的道歉要的是這樣的一個重大死案事件不會再發生所以我希望大家是秉持這樣的原則來處理這一次的死案事件要卸責給地方政府這絕對不是一個解方也是民眾不想看見的好 謝謝好 謝謝 我們結束王玉銘委員的質詢接下來曾振前曾振前"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:34.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:34.425000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，有請衛福部林靜儀次長。","quality":0.357},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:34.425000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:43.649000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:43.649000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:25:54.497000+08:00","text":"次長，我請教你，這次爆發史上最嚴重的食安事件，但是昨天行政院院長在立法院院會「道歉」兩個字說不出口。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:25:55.158000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:08.287000+08:00","text":"你也是一個醫師，你認為爆發這麼重大的食安事件，從老人到小孩，幾乎全國民眾都吃到含有毒油的食品，你自己吃到了沒？","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:09.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:10.229000+08:00","text":"對照那些產品，你吃到了沒？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:10.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:11.529000+08:00","text":"我沒有去對照。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:12.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:13.531000+08:00","text":"你沒有對照？對。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:13.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:14.251000+08:00","text":"因為在……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:14.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:23.216000+08:00","text":"我們在立法院中午吃便當的時候有訂臺鐵的便當，我們都吃到了，為什麼卓院長連一句道歉都說不出口？","quality":0.884},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:23.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:23.796000+08:00","text":"有這麼難嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:23.796000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:24.796000+08:00","text":"委員，我想這個是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:23.796000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:24.036000+08:00","text":"人民何辜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:27.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:27.838000+08:00","text":"人民何辜？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:28.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:30.039000+08:00","text":"這就是政府把關不力啊！","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:30.720000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:37.603000+08:00","text":"業者無良，但是政府也把關不力，難道跟民眾說一句道歉有這麼的難嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:37.603000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:42.005000+08:00","text":"委員，我今天已經說過，這個案子從中央到地方，因為執行的業務在地方……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:42.205000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:44.306000+08:00","text":"我想從你口中大概也聽不到道歉兩個字。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:45.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:26:57.512000+08:00","text":"我現在要追問的是，這麼嚴重的食安事件已經過了兩個禮拜，但是關於造成毒油的原因，你們初一十五講的都不一樣。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:26:58.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:10.560000+08:00","text":"7月5日媒體報導，姜至剛署長開了專家會議，他告訴大家巴西黃豆含水率高，所以問題最有可能出在巴西黃豆這邊。","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:11.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:17.384000+08:00","text":"結果我今天聽次長回答委員的詢問，你說不是巴西黃豆，是製程有問題。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:18.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:21.286000+08:00","text":"你們兩個人說法不一，到底以誰的說法為準？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:21.906000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:26.329000+08:00","text":"這兩件事情都受影響，原料和製程都受影響，所以我們現在對於……","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:26.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:29.071000+08:00","text":"那你上午的回答就有誤導喔！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:29.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:35.835000+08:00","text":"上午有委員在追問巴西黃豆的時候，你說跟豆子沒有關係，說有其他油廠也有用到巴西的豆子。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:35.895000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:37.856000+08:00","text":"委員，一樣是……對，因為有別的油廠也有用到巴西的豆子。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:37.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:40.017000+08:00","text":"所以你這個說法太武斷，你要不要收回去？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:40.538000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:40.898000+08:00","text":"我再次強調……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:41.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:41.498000+08:00","text":"7月5日是專家學者的會議喔！","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:41.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:49.042000+08:00","text":"我們這裡面對於……當然專家學者會議我們後續還會再召開，專家這邊也都認為還要再針對……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:49.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:51.223000+08:00","text":"所以你不能排除巴西黃豆啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:51.483000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:52.543000+08:00","text":"我不會排除巴西黃豆。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:52.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:55.384000+08:00","text":"你早上回答賴士葆委員，我聽到的就是這樣。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:55.384000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:27:58.705000+08:00","text":"問題不是巴西那個問題，是豆的問題，但是……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:27:58.705000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:01.846000+08:00","text":"那就是巴西進口的黃豆，它的含水量比較高嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:02.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:22.952000+08:00","text":"接下來我要問你，我上個禮拜就問過部長巴西黃豆的流向，如果專家會議有直指巴西黃豆含水量高的話，我查過，今年以來巴西黃豆已經進口70萬噸，去年則有87萬噸，我上個禮拜問你們：掌握這些巴西黃豆的流向沒有？","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:23.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:25.352000+08:00","text":"除了中聯，到底進了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:25.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:26.953000+08:00","text":"其他油廠進了多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:27.693000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:29.233000+08:00","text":"當時沒有答案，現在答案出來了嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:29.233000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:30.233000+08:00","text":"委員是不是可以讓我回答？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:30.233000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:31.233000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:29.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:29.333000+08:00","text":"好，你講。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:32.034000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:48.399000+08:00","text":"今年1月到5月，巴西進來60萬公噸，在前端，就是黃豆進來的時候有查，總共有15家業者有輸入，這15家業者用得最多的是大統益、美藍雷和福壽，這是3個使用……","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:48.399000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:49.399000+08:00","text":"大統益？","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:49.399000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:50.399000+08:00","text":"對，大統益。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:48.399000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:48.999000+08:00","text":"那大統益……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:50.239000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:52.200000+08:00","text":"不是中聯？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:52.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:28:53.260000+08:00","text":"我這邊的資料是大統益。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:28:53.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:01.403000+08:00","text":"大統益在南區，我們食藥署南區那邊7月8日有再去做抽驗，是合格的。再來……","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:01.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:04.166000+08:00","text":"是說它的豆合格，還是油品合格？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:04.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:05.166000+08:00","text":"油品合格。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:04.986000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:06.368000+08:00","text":"你們是抽幾月到幾月的油？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:06.668000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:09.531000+08:00","text":"我們今年7月8日去抽驗。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:09.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:10.472000+08:00","text":"抽幾月的油品？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:10.872000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:15.166000+08:00","text":"我們這邊抽到的是現場的C槽。現場？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:15.166000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:16.166000+08:00","text":"對，現場的C槽。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:15.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:16.066000+08:00","text":"那它之前的呢？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:16.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:23.007000+08:00","text":"因為現在中聯爆發的是4到6月的油品，你們有沒有抽4到6月的油品？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:24.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:29.829000+08:00","text":"他們自己有留樣，今年他們每個月有留14批的樣，我們另外也有再去抽。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:30.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:31.689000+08:00","text":"驗到的結果呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:31.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:34.670000+08:00","text":"4到6月驗出來的結果都沒有問題？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:34.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:35.350000+08:00","text":"都符合標準。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:35.350000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:36.350000+08:00","text":"都符合標準？","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:36.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:37.210000+08:00","text":"所以他們是同一批豆？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:37.210000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:39.310000+08:00","text":"我們同仁說目前有還沒驗出來的。有嗎？","quality":0.125},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:39.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:39.470000+08:00","text":"要確認喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:39.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:41.351000+08:00","text":"你不要到時候又爆發出來有問題喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:45.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:47.483000+08:00","text":"其他的還在檢驗當中，我們現在有一件是檢驗合格的，就是大統益這邊。","quality":0.69},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:47.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:29:49.485000+08:00","text":"好，還在檢驗中？是。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:29:50.225000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:26.368000+08:00","text":"我覺得這件事情到目前為止，你們對毒油發生的原因都還沒有查清楚，就急著要讓一些預防性下架的商品上架，這是有問題的，因為一定要把原因查清楚，才知道問題發生在哪裡，就像你早上在回答委員問題的時候，一下子說是黃豆有問題、巴西黃豆含水量過高，這是專家學者會議，然後一下子又說是中聯的製程有問題，你們都還沒有十足把握，就匆匆忙忙要讓這些商品再上架，我認為是不可取的！","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:26.368000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:27.368000+08:00","text":"現在是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:26.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:28.589000+08:00","text":"第一個我要講的是食安事件！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:29.310000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:35.413000+08:00","text":"不只是4到6月的產品要預防性下架，還要向上溯源、向上追查。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:35.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:40.396000+08:00","text":"我就問：中聯1到3月的油品還有樣品嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:40.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:43.839000+08:00","text":"你們查得到它1到3月的產品確定沒有問題嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:44.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:30:57.468000+08:00","text":"中聯現在是4到6月的我們正在驗，至於是不是要往回追溯，我先跟委員報告，至少當地主管機關在113年、114年驗的都合格，這是我們現在能掌握到的部分。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:30:58.437000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:01.858000+08:00","text":"所以你現在到底能不能保證它4月以前的都沒有問題？","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:01.858000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:20.762000+08:00","text":"委員，我們只能說現在的資料，以過去臺中市政府衛生局驗的，然後跟我們現在拿到的4月份資料往下驗的，這兩個部分我們能處理；至於過去那段時間，因為有一些廠商他們可能有一些自主檢驗的部分，這個是不是容我們回去再跟廠商調過去1到3月他們自主檢驗的資料？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:21.182000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.248000+08:00","text":"好，今天我要告訴你的就是，把原因查清楚是不要再發生食安事件的一個很重要的關鍵，但是對於是巴西黃豆、黃豆有問題還是中聯的製程有問題，你們現在都還沒有十足把握，我要求你們要儘快把你們現在……一個是中聯還有二十幾批你們還沒有公布喔！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.268000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.268000+08:00","text":"現在正在驗。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.448000+08:00","text":"現在還在驗喔！對。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:31.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:31:54.783000+08:00","text":"所以在結果都還沒有出來之前，你根本就不應該讓這些有疑慮的商品快速上架。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:31:56.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:05.055000+08:00","text":"真的都公布完，確定沒有問題之後，所有預防性下架的這些你們再次驗過後再上架，國人才會安心。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:05.215000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:14.520000+08:00","text":"你這樣匆匆忙忙，其實對國人來講是不安心的，只會造成市場秩序更混亂而已，針對這個部分，我希望你們可以把握這個原則。","quality":0.922},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:14.520000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:20.962000+08:00","text":"那我就問你：你現在追查的另外21批，到底什麼時候會有結果出來？","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:20.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:27.244000+08:00","text":"目前我們有24批、52項產品，因為有些不是從中聯，而是從它後面其他廠商來的資料……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:27.564000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:30.625000+08:00","text":"整個結果到底什麼時候會出來？","quality":0.692},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:30.625000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:32.885000+08:00","text":"我們希望能夠在一週內……院長要求我們一週內要把所有的數據檢驗完成。","quality":0.633},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:32.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:35.006000+08:00","text":"所以是下個禮拜幾？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:35.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:35.226000+08:00","text":"禮拜三？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:35.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:35.926000+08:00","text":"禮拜一？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:37.376000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:38.157000+08:00","text":"今天是禮拜三……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:38.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:39.838000+08:00","text":"你們的deadline到底是哪一天？","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:39.998000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:43.742000+08:00","text":"我們儘量，我們現在大家都在趕，整個實驗室都在趕。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:43.742000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:55.772000+08:00","text":"還有，我要求剛剛講的大統益的部分，它同樣有進口巴西黃豆，而且數量很多，這個部分你們現在驗的結果還沒有出來，是不是一週後也可以同時公布？","quality":0.934},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:56.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:58.454000+08:00","text":"應該會同步，我們現在儘速在驗。","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:58.454000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:32:59.735000+08:00","text":"都可以嘛？對。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員育敏","start":"2026-07-15T12:32:59.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:20.229000+08:00","text":"國人要的是一個真相，要的是行政院長一個真誠的道歉，要的是這樣的一個重大食安事件不會再發生，所以我希望大家是秉持這樣的原則來處理這一次的食安事件，要卸責給地方政府，這絕對不是一個解方，也是民眾不想看見的，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":0.959},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:20.229000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:22.150000+08:00","text":"我們結束王委員育敏委員的質詢。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:22.650000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:28.078571+08:00","text":"接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","quality":0.158},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:28.378571+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:30.092857+08:00","text":"請楊瓊瓔委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1113,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（12時25分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部林靜儀次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：次長，我請教你，這次爆發史上最嚴重的食安事件，但是昨天行政院院長在立法院院會「道歉」兩個字說不出口。你也是一個醫師，你認為爆發這麼重大的食安事件，從老人到小孩，幾乎全國民眾都吃到含有毒油的食品，你自己吃到了沒？對照那些產品，你吃到了沒？"],["林次長靜儀：我沒有去對照。"],["王委員育敏：你沒有對照？"],["林次長靜儀：對。因為在……"],["王委員育敏：我們在立法院中午吃便當的時候有訂臺鐵的便當，我們都吃到了，為什麼卓院長連一句道歉都說不出口？有這麼難嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我想這個是……"],["王委員育敏：人民何辜？人民何辜？這就是政府把關不力啊！業者無良，但是政府也把關不力，難道跟民眾說一句道歉有這麼的難嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我今天已經說過，這個案子從中央到地方，因為執行的業務在地方……"],["王委員育敏：我想從你口中大概也聽不到道歉兩個字。我現在要追問的是，這麼嚴重的食安事件已經過了兩個禮拜，但是關於造成毒油的原因，你們初一十五講的都不一樣。7月5日媒體報導，姜至剛署長開了專家會議，他告訴大家巴西黃豆含水率高，所以問題最有可能出在巴西黃豆這邊。結果我今天聽次長回答委員的詢問，你說不是巴西黃豆，是製程有問題。你們兩個人說法不一，到底以誰的說法為準？"],["林次長靜儀：這兩件事情都受影響，原料和製程都受影響，所以我們現在對於……"],["王委員育敏：那你上午的回答就有誤導喔！上午有委員在追問巴西黃豆的時候，你說跟豆子沒有關係，說有其他油廠也有用到巴西的豆子。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，一樣是……對，因為有別的油廠也有用到巴西的豆子。"],["王委員育敏：所以你這個說法太武斷，你要不要收回去？"],["林次長靜儀：我再次強調……"],["王委員育敏：7月5日是專家學者的會議喔！"],["林次長靜儀：我們這裡面對於……當然專家學者會議我們後續還會再召開，專家這邊也都認為還要再針對……"],["王委員育敏：所以你不能排除巴西黃豆啊！"],["林次長靜儀：我不會排除巴西黃豆。"],["王委員育敏：你早上回答賴士葆委員，我聽到的就是這樣。"],["林次長靜儀：問題不是巴西那個問題，是豆的問題，但是……"],["王委員育敏：那就是巴西進口的黃豆，它的含水量比較高嘛！","接下來我要問你，我上個禮拜就問過部長巴西黃豆的流向，如果專家會議有直指巴西黃豆含水量高的話，我查過，今年以來巴西黃豆已經進口70萬噸，去年則有87萬噸，我上個禮拜問你們：掌握這些巴西黃豆的流向沒有？除了中聯，到底進了多少？其他油廠進了多少？當時沒有答案，現在答案出來了嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：委員是不是可以讓我回答？謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，你講。"],["林次長靜儀：今年1月到5月，巴西進來60萬公噸，在前端，就是黃豆進來的時候有查，總共有15家業者有輸入，這15家業者用得最多的是大統益、美藍雷和福壽，這是3個使用……"],["王委員育敏：大統益？"],["林次長靜儀：對，大統益。那大統益……"],["王委員育敏：不是中聯？"],["林次長靜儀：我這邊的資料是大統益。大統益在南區，我們食藥署南區那邊7月8日有再去做抽驗，是合格的。再來……"],["王委員育敏：是說它的豆合格，還是油品合格？"],["林次長靜儀：油品合格。"],["王委員育敏：你們是抽幾月到幾月的油？"],["林次長靜儀：我們今年7月8日去抽驗。"],["王委員育敏：抽幾月的油品？"],["林次長靜儀：我們這邊抽到的是現場的C槽。"],["王委員育敏：現場？"],["林次長靜儀：對，現場的C槽。"],["王委員育敏：那它之前的呢？因為現在中聯爆發的是4到6月的油品，你們有沒有抽4到6月的油品？"],["林次長靜儀：他們自己有留樣，今年他們每個月有留14批的樣，我們另外也有再去抽。"],["王委員育敏：驗到的結果呢？4到6月驗出來的結果都沒有問題？"],["林次長靜儀：都符合標準。"],["王委員育敏：都符合標準？所以他們是同一批豆？"],["林次長靜儀：我們同仁說目前有還沒驗出來的。"],["王委員育敏：有嗎？要確認喔！你不要到時候又爆發出來有問題喔！"],["林次長靜儀：其他的還在檢驗當中，我們現在有一件是檢驗合格的，就是大統益這邊。"],["王委員育敏：好，還在檢驗中？"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這件事情到目前為止，你們對毒油發生的原因都還沒有查清楚，就急著要讓一些預防性下架的商品上架，這是有問題的，因為一定要把原因查清楚，才知道問題發生在哪裡，就像你早上在回答委員問題的時候，一下子說是黃豆有問題、巴西黃豆含水量過高，這是專家學者會議，然後一下子又說是中聯的製程有問題，你們都還沒有十足把握，就匆匆忙忙要讓這些商品再上架，我認為是不可取的！"],["林次長靜儀：現在是……"],["王委員育敏：第一個我要講的是食安事件！不只是4到6月的產品要預防性下架，還要向上溯源、向上追查。我就問：中聯1到3月的油品還有樣品嗎？你們查得到它1到3月的產品確定沒有問題嗎？"],["林次長靜儀：中聯現在是4到6月的我們正在驗，至於是不是要往回追溯，我先跟委員報告，至少當地主管機關在113年、114年驗的都合格，這是我們現在能掌握到的部分。"],["王委員育敏：所以你現在到底能不能保證它4月以前的都沒有問題？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我們只能說現在的資料，以過去臺中市政府衛生局驗的，然後跟我們現在拿到的4月份資料往下驗的，這兩個部分我們能處理；至於過去那段時間，因為有一些廠商他們可能有一些自主檢驗的部分，這個是不是容我們回去再跟廠商調過去1到3月他們自主檢驗的資料？"],["王委員育敏：好，今天我要告訴你的就是，把原因查清楚是不要再發生食安事件的一個很重要的關鍵，但是對於是巴西黃豆、黃豆有問題還是中聯的製程有問題，你們現在都還沒有十足把握，我要求你們要儘快把你們現在……一個是中聯還有二十幾批你們還沒有公布喔！"],["林次長靜儀：現在正在驗。"],["王委員育敏：現在還在驗喔！"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["王委員育敏：所以在結果都還沒有出來之前，你根本就不應該讓這些有疑慮的商品快速上架。真的都公布完，確定沒有問題之後，所有預防性下架的這些你們再次驗過後再上架，國人才會安心。你這樣匆匆忙忙，其實對國人來講是不安心的，只會造成市場秩序更混亂而已，針對這個部分，我希望你們可以把握這個原則。那我就問你：你現在追查的另外21批，到底什麼時候會有結果出來？"],["林次長靜儀：目前我們有24批、52項產品，因為有些不是從中聯，而是從它後面其他廠商來的資料……"],["王委員育敏：整個結果到底什麼時候會出來？"],["林次長靜儀：我們希望能夠在一週內……院長要求我們一週內要把所有的數據檢驗完成。"],["王委員育敏：所以是下個禮拜幾？禮拜三？禮拜一？"],["林次長靜儀：今天是禮拜三……"],["王委員育敏：你們的deadline到底是哪一天？"],["林次長靜儀：我們儘量，我們現在大家都在趕，整個實驗室都在趕。"],["王委員育敏：還有，我要求剛剛講的大統益的部分，它同樣有進口巴西黃豆，而且數量很多，這個部分你們現在驗的結果還沒有出來，是不是一週後也可以同時公布？"],["林次長靜儀：應該會同步，我們現在儘速在驗。"],["王委員育敏：都可以嘛？"],["林次長靜儀：對。"],["王委員育敏：國人要的是一個真相，要的是行政院長一個真誠的道歉，要的是這樣的一個重大食安事件不會再發生，所以我希望大家是秉持這樣的原則來處理這一次的食安事件，要卸責給地方政府，這絕對不是一個解方，也是民眾不想看見的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們結束王委員育敏委員的質詢。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}