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其中的漏洞都有影響廠商 通報 檢驗所以你也知道漏洞在哪裡政府的責任在哪裡所以接下來我們要重新再到目前為止你認為這個事件發生這麼重大政府的責任在哪裡政府的缺失在哪裡這邊我們剛剛提到剛剛就是我們說到的包含檢驗的評次我們可能未來我們要加強它檢驗的評次再來就是對於廠商這邊的通報責任或者是第三工政方檢驗的這個通報責任這個部分未來要在實範法裡面把它加進去"},{"start":110.866,"end":137.881,"text":"當事情發生的時候 政府告訴我們修法是強化源頭管理 強化製程管理強化異常通報 強化品質管理 強化數位治理研議要求大型高風險食品業設置專業的獨立董事等六項措施是在這一次 說一個禮拜內要修食安法的方向對不對是 我們今天還有提出食安法的方向那表示以前你的責任在哪裡呢"},{"start":138.901,"end":162.007,"text":"讓人民產生了這麼大的一個食安問題到現在還不清不楚所以在這邊要請教你們的修法目前為止我們這次的改革是要制度的提升還是補上過去你監督的這個漏洞呢都要都要齁好這一句都要表示"},{"start":163.227,"end":190.329,"text":"這一次光光在6月11號最明確的已經知道但是到6月30才這個陳報上來業者拿去實驗室報告也只有給這個這個業者政府部門完全在這一段時間完全都不知道我們要怎麼改昨天跟卓葵討論本期強烈的要求未來實驗室只要有碰到有問題的"},{"start":191.946,"end":196.973,"text":"有異常的就必須要同步的來通知你贊成吧所以這一定要做"},{"start":201.789,"end":228.217,"text":"我們的修法也並不是這一次食安的漏洞完全的一個答案而是目前為止我們如果有行政命令可以直接執行之的我們更應該要去做還是目前我們的條文有的我們沒有去做到這個責任才導致這麼大現在都照相關的標準在處理所以這是剛剛委員補充的就是說在現在行政命令可以調整的包含檢驗評次因為檢驗評次這個部分我們過去消息是"},{"start":231.62,"end":238.575,"text":"而且是這麼樣全國都在用的不管進入到學校 進入到團賽"},{"start":240.682,"end":262.402,"text":"數量大的高比例的你更應當要加密去檢查嘛對不對可是委員我們其實過去四年我們都有給地方政府相關的專案那但是在中聯郵址的資料裡面在地方政府的稽查113年一次 114年三次所以務必一定要保障我們的安全我再來請教教育部"},{"start":273.371,"end":283.796,"text":"前天告訴我們食藥署公布你們教育部透過我們食材的平台檢驗出來包括幼兒園以上的是881家現在是1380家"},{"start":287.498,"end":310.24,"text":"然後你們宣布要研議建立高風險的這個食材供應商如果經過這個公告是重大的事案的不得再進入校園本席要請教你們用疑似兩個字告訴社會大眾到底我目前1380所學校到底是有還是沒有"},{"start":310.8,"end":316.21,"text":"那個委員可能有些誤解第一個我們是針對那個油品的部分油品的部分本來15項現在變50項我們清查出"},{"start":320.123,"end":332.489,"text":"7個縣市260所學校直接用那個油品的相關油品那你剛才講的那個數字呢是後來那個衛福部又公布用那個油品再製那個品項當然是再製啊衛福部荒腔走板本來說20%以下的沒有關係現在不行我們反映了現在一直報連環報再報再報所以市長針對問題"},{"start":345.196,"end":351.992,"text":"民眾要問的 家長要問的是說到底我的孩子在學校有沒有吃到毒油"},{"start":353.223,"end":372.97,"text":"當然是這一次食安有波及到校園這是事實那我剛才把它講完就是後來那個440項的那個再製的那些用那個油品再製的是440項後來我們為什麼用一次呢因為那個食安登錄平台有的記載的那個關鍵字會不一樣所以我們是擴大清查擴大清查是861項跟300"},{"start":375.111,"end":376.593,"text":"孩子的午餐不能建立在你事後的補救上"},{"start":392.296,"end":409.687,"text":"對不對對你一定認同這個原則是 沒有錯我們的孩子到底有沒有吃下相關的毒油目前是有不管是再製還是什麼當然是家長只有要知道昨天卓葵質詢的時候她說一週之內去清查清楚那你多久可以告訴我們"},{"start":410.447,"end":416.75,"text":"是不是如同昨天所說的一週之內去清查清楚因為你們上下都不連貫你剛剛回答委員說要兩週那到底是什麼時候可以告訴家長孩子吃得有沒有健康兩週是指說他要我們算出那個量我跟他說那個量因為學校的公餐有三種形態有一種是從外面直接公餐他用的油"},{"start":434.797,"end":460.035,"text":"可能我們在這個學校登錄是有的市長但是他量齁有時候他有做外面的針對我們學校控管在教育部到底什麼時候可以告訴我們他們到底有沒有吃到毒油我們都第一時間都已經公布了請教什麼時候可以告訴我們現在就已經公布了我們逐批在公布因為我們是下游單位我們是使用者你現在用儀式請告訴我們嘛你多久可以告訴我們他們有沒有吃到毒油嘛"},{"start":460.795,"end":488.163,"text":"對 我們現在都已經在公告什麼時候會把所有疑似的調查清楚疑似現在配同地方縣府清查你們多久時間可以告訴家長家長要問的事實我什麼時候可以知道答案嘛其實我們440項疑似全部都下架了全部下架了就是你講的1195個市長 我們要知道的ending的答案到底我的孩子有沒有吃下毒油"},{"start":489.534,"end":518.21,"text":"委員我再稍微說明一下就是這個部分它廠商的這個超標是它的製程有問題超標超標之後但是今天不論今天的這個油品進入到飲食的過程它不是直接油進去油在烹調過程它就會造成本田皮的增加所以這個部分要稍微說一下那第二個部分您剛剛所提到本田皮是致癌物家長很緊張所以最後它的製程是"},{"start":519.711,"end":542.816,"text":"市長 孩子的家長 社會大眾需要知道的是到底我的孩子吃下的有沒有毒不是一直讓他們在等待委員這邊我再說明一下 相關的油品什麼時候 相關的油品什麼時候會全部清查完現在我們對於 現在對於中聯這29批已經全部預防性下架"},{"start":544.734,"end":565.083,"text":"預防性下降我們在等待到底我的孩子有沒有吃到毒品嗎是教育部的工作啦市長多久時間啦委員你剛才有一些數字是這樣子你講的1385應該是指說我們7月1號收到那個有品的相關的我們7月2號通知那個地方進行清查那已經清查完了就是260項260項260項是有問題的對那現在怎麼辦呢"},{"start":572.396,"end":593.661,"text":"我們都已經下架了嘛 都已經下架了 都已經下架了那其他疑似在調查什麼時候會回答沒有 疑似的是440項 那是什麼時候會公佈出來那個已經都下架了是下架啦下架但是沒有調查嘛 還在調查當中嘛都下架了 都下架了你的疑似是不是告訴我家長說這個就是有問題"},{"start":594.581,"end":610.869,"text":"本家請問的 你要對喔 你要講清楚喔沒有錯 七月一號因為你是用疑似喔 可是你的文字上面是疑似喔不是啦 疑似的部分是因為我們根據你下架不等於是確認啊 到底是有還是沒有嘛疑似 疑似的原因是因為我們是預防性下架那我們家長要請問啊"},{"start":614.211,"end":643.271,"text":"妳下架的不表妳的儀式不表示到底是有還是沒有我們要聽妳教育部告訴我們的到底是有還是沒有嘛這一批油做的都預防性下架了但是妳們也不會再去畫不會去回到實驗室去查就對了我今天可能她不打算查她不打算查了啦蛋糕今天油的蛋糕用的油做下去我不論妳這一批蛋糕是什麼狀況總之妳用到這個油就下架就這樣子"},{"start":644.611,"end":670.829,"text":"我要請問市長你們公布的疑似是不是表示就是有對 就是我們 我再講兩次一次是7月1號那一次這一次440項是根據衛福部公布的440項只要疑似的我們有861校334所 幼兒園全部都下架只要疑似就下架疑似你下架但是我要請教到底是有還是沒有就是都下架了都下架是有還是沒有"},{"start":671.77,"end":692.899,"text":"有可能有但他不想查我們就只要疑似就下架你怎麼可以這樣不告訴身為大眾呢你的疑似下架你是預防性下架嘛但是我家長要問的是我的孩子有沒有吃下毒油啊到底是有還是沒有這部分如果委員還要相關的資料我們再來清查不是我要相關資料是家長要確認到底有還沒有你趕快去查好不好我們就是根據衛福部的440項來做預防性下架嘛就是有861項"},{"start":700.023,"end":707.1,"text":"趕快去查到底是有還是沒有就是有 我們在預防好 謝謝我們結束楊瓊英委員的質詢接下來請葉元智委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:36+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:37+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:37+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:38+08:00","text":"邀請衛福部。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:38+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:39+08:00","text":"請林次長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:39+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:40+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:36.856000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:37.496000+08:00","text":"是，次長，發生了這麼重大的食安議題，你認為原因到底是出在哪裡？","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:37.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:33:37.696000+08:00","text":"為什麼會導致這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:33:56.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:08.925000+08:00","text":"第一個事情，關於廠商這邊，在7月3日、7月4日的專家會議裡面，專家這邊認為整個中聯這邊的製程品管HACCP做得並不符合標準，這是第一個部分。","quality":0.883},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:09.445000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:23.014000+08:00","text":"第二部分，在相關廠商這一邊，其實在4月份有廠商自主去驗，驗完之後發現有問題，但是遲遲沒有通知地方主管機關跟中央主管機關，所以這個在通報的部分，中間是有一個很大的落差。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:23.614000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:48.663000+08:00","text":"第三個事情，過去食藥署這邊有訂定相關油質的標準，我們也有一些專案讓地方政府來做檢驗，訂了這個標準，我們希望它半年至少驗一次，不過看情況，當然在地方上驗的頻次其實就真的只有……如果像這麼大的廠商，有一些檢驗的部分，他真的半年才驗一次，我們認為那個頻次不夠，所以這個部分我們未來會要求他們調整。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:49.883000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:55.950000+08:00","text":"以上三項的說明，就表示這一次食安事件你認為最大的漏洞是在這裡？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:57.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:58.988000+08:00","text":"這是其中幾個漏洞，都有影響。","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:59.168000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:34:59.589000+08:00","text":"都有影響？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:34:59.589000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:01.030000+08:00","text":"廠商、通報、檢驗……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:01.030000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:04.072000+08:00","text":"所以你也知道漏洞在哪裡，政府的責任在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:04.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:04.653000+08:00","text":"所以接下來，我們要從……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:05.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:11.498000+08:00","text":"到目前為止，你認為這個事件發生，這麼重大的事件，政府的責任在哪裡、政府的缺失在哪裡？","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:11.498000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:24.329000+08:00","text":"就是我們剛剛說到的，包含檢驗的頻次，可能未來我們要加強他檢驗的頻次，再來就是對於廠商這邊的通報責任，或者是第三公證方檢驗的通報責任，這個部分未來要在食安法裡面把它加進去。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:26.866000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:50.379000+08:00","text":"當事情發生的時候，政府告訴我們修法是強化源頭管理、強化製程管理、強化異常通報、強化品質管理、強化數位治理、研議要求大型高風險食品業設置專業的獨立董事等六項措施，是在這一次說一個禮拜內要修食安法的方向，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:50.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:51.699000+08:00","text":"是，我們12日提出食安法修法草案。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:52.220000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:35:53.861000+08:00","text":"這顯示以前你的責任在哪裡呢？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:35:54.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:00.883000+08:00","text":"讓人民產生了這麼大的一個食安問題，到現在還不清不楚！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:00.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:01.883000+08:00","text":"委員，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:01.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:15.606000+08:00","text":"所以在這邊要請教你們的修法，目前為止，我們這次的改革是要制度的提升，還是補上過去你監督的這個漏洞呢？都要。都要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:16.026000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:38.663000+08:00","text":"好，這一句「都要」表示，這一次光在6月11日就已經明確知道，但是到6月30日才呈報上來，業者拿去實驗室，報告也只有給這個業者，政府部門在這一段時間完全都不知道，我們要怎麼改？","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:39.584000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:52.212000+08:00","text":"昨天跟卓揆討論，本席強烈要求未來實驗室只要碰到有問題的、有異常的，就必須要同步的通知，你贊成吧？","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:52.212000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:53.212000+08:00","text":"我們現在在朝這個方向去做調整跟修法。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:52.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:36:52.953000+08:00","text":"所以這一定要做！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:36:57.789000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:09.253000+08:00","text":"我們的修法也並不是這一次食安漏洞完全的一個答案，而是目前為止，我們如果有行政命令可以直接執行的，我們更應該要去做。是。","quality":0.981},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:10.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:15.114000+08:00","text":"還是以目前我們的條文有的，我們沒有去做到這個責任，才導致這麼大嘛！","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:15.515000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:23.617000+08:00","text":"現在都照相關的標準在處理，所以這也是剛剛跟委員補充的，現在行政命令可以調整的包含檢驗頻次，關於檢驗頻次這個部分，過去食藥署是……對啊！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:23.617000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:25.618500+08:00","text":"重大的時候……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:25.618500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:27.620000+08:00","text":"過去食藥署是最低要求，但是……","quality":0.083},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:27.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:41.847000+08:00","text":"而且是這麼樣，全國都在用的，不管進入到學校、進入到團膳，數量大的、高比例的，你更應當要加密去檢查，對不對？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:41.847000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:52.637000+08:00","text":"委員，可是我們其實過去4年都有給地方政府相關的專案，但是在中聯油脂的資料裡面，地方政府的稽查113年1次、114年3次。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:53.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:56.200000+08:00","text":"所以務必一定要保障我們的安全。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:57.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:37:58.382000+08:00","text":"我再來請教教育部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:37:58.382000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:38:09.371000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:38:09.371000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:38:35.650000+08:00","text":"前天告訴我們，依據食藥署公布，教育部透過食材的平臺檢驗出來，包括幼兒園以上的是881家，現在是1,380家，然後你們宣布要研議建入建立高風險的食材供應商，如果經過公告是重大食安的，不得再進入校園。是。","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:38:35.650000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:38:46.220000+08:00","text":"本席要請教，你們用「疑似」兩個字告訴社會大眾，1,380所學校到底是有還是沒有？","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:38:47.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:38:59.725000+08:00","text":"委員可能有些誤解，第一個，我們是針對油品的部分，油品的部分本來15項，現在變50項，我們清查出7個縣市、260所學校直接用到相關油品的部分。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:00.485000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:06.528000+08:00","text":"委員剛才講的那個數字是後來衛福部又公布用那個油品再製的品項，再製那部分……","quality":0.765},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:06.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:06.728000+08:00","text":"當然是再製啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:06.748000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:07.448000+08:00","text":"衛福部荒腔走板，本來說20%以下的沒有關係，現在不行！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:07.448000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:08.448000+08:00","text":"不是、不是……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:07.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:08.269000+08:00","text":"我們反映了，現在一直報、連環爆，再爆又再爆！不是……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:08.489000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:08.489000+08:00","text":"次長，針對問題！不對……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:21.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:27.972000+08:00","text":"民眾要問的、家長要問的是，到底我的孩子在學校有沒有吃到毒油？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:27.972000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:29.223000+08:00","text":"請你告訴我們。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:29.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:34.345000+08:00","text":"當然這一次的食安有波及到校園，這是事實，我把剛才的話講完。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:38.006000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:42.628000+08:00","text":"用那個油品再製的是440項，後來我們為什麼用「疑似」呢？","quality":0.905},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:43.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:39:48.950000+08:00","text":"因為食安登錄平臺記載的關鍵字有的會不一樣，所以我們是擴大清查，擴大清查後，是861校跟334所幼兒園，我們第一時間公布的時候，就是1,195，並沒有所謂擴大，逐漸清查之後，我們就一一的請它下架、銷毀。","quality":0.412},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:39:51.111000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:08.936000+08:00","text":"請教次長，孩子的午餐不能建立在你事後的補救上，對不對？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:08.936000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:10.337000+08:00","text":"你一定認同這個原則。","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:10.337000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:11.098000+08:00","text":"是，沒有錯。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:11.098000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:14.920000+08:00","text":"我們的孩子到底有沒有吃下相關的毒油？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:15.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:15.641000+08:00","text":"目前是有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:15.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:17.222000+08:00","text":"不管是再製，還是什麼。當然……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:17.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:27.808000+08:00","text":"家長只是要知道，昨天卓揆質詢的時候說一週之內清查清楚，那麼你多久可以告訴我們，是不是如同卓揆昨天所說的一週之內去清查清楚？","quality":0.912},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:27.908000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:29.628000+08:00","text":"因為你們上下都不連貫，你剛剛回答委員說要兩週，到底是什麼時候可以告訴家長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:29.628000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:30.628000+08:00","text":"委員，剛才那兩週……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:29.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:30.129000+08:00","text":"孩子吃的油有沒有健康？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:30.189000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:40:55.801000+08:00","text":"兩週是指他要我們算出那個量，關於我剛剛說的那個量，因為學校的供餐有三種型態，有一種是從外面直接供餐，他用的油……可能這個學校登錄是有的，但是他的量，有時候他有做外面的，我們沒有……","quality":0.835},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:40:56.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:03.066000+08:00","text":"針對我們的學校，控管在教育部，到底什麼時候可以告訴我們，他們到底有沒有吃到毒油？","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:03.606000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:05.367000+08:00","text":"我們第一時間都已經公布了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:05.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:06.828000+08:00","text":"請教，什麼時候可以告訴孩子們？","quality":0.769},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:06.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:11.231000+08:00","text":"我們現在就已經公布了，我們逐批在公布，因為我們是下游單位、我們是使用者……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:11.291000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:15.835000+08:00","text":"你現在就一次告訴我們，你多久可以告訴我們，他們有沒有吃到毒油？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:16.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:17.835000+08:00","text":"對，我們現在都已經在公布……","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:18.316000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:21.116000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會把所有「疑似」的調查清楚，一併給？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:21.777000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:24.337000+08:00","text":"「疑似」的部分現在會同地方縣府清查……","quality":0.733},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:24.977000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:29.899000+08:00","text":"你們多久時間可以告訴家長，家長要問的是什麼時候可以知道答案嘛！","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:31.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:34.280000+08:00","text":"其實440項「疑似」全部都下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:34.280000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:35.340000+08:00","text":"下架了！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:35.340000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:38.461000+08:00","text":"都全部下架了，就是你講的1,195個……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:39.241000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:41:44.143000+08:00","text":"次長，我們要知道到底我的孩子有沒有吃下毒油！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:41:45.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:06.886000+08:00","text":"委員，我再稍微說明一下，這個部分廠商的超標是它的製程有問題、超標，但是今天的這個油品進入到飲食的過程，它不是直接飲油進去，油在烹調過程就會造成苯駢芘的增加，所以這個部分要稍微說一下。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:07.186000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:08.147000+08:00","text":"第二個部分，您剛剛所提到的像……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:09.288000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:12.389000+08:00","text":"苯駢芘是致癌物，家長很緊張。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:12.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:14.190000+08:00","text":"對，所以我要再強調，它的製程是……","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:16.531000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:26.173000+08:00","text":"次長，孩子的家長、社會大眾需要知道的是，到底我的孩子吃下的有沒有毒，不是一直讓他們在等待。","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:27.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:28.194000+08:00","text":"委員，我這邊再說明一下……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:29.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:33.255000+08:00","text":"相關的油品什麼時候會全部清查完畢？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:33.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:38.796000+08:00","text":"我們現在對於中聯這29批已經全部預防性下架。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:40.734000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:41.234000+08:00","text":"預防性下架？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:41.635000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:46.237000+08:00","text":"我們在等待的是，到底我的孩子有沒有吃到毒油，這是教育部的工作嘛！","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:46.237000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:48.157000+08:00","text":"張廖次長剛才回應的，還有其他在調查當中……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:48.157000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:42:49.358000+08:00","text":"次長，多久時間嘛？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:42:49.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:00.663000+08:00","text":"委員，你剛才有一些數字是這樣子，你講的1,385應該是指我們7月1日收到那個油品相關的，我們7月2日通知地方政府清查，已經清查完了，就是260校。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:00.683000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:00.763000+08:00","text":"260校是有問題的？對。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:00.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:01.063000+08:00","text":"那現在怎麼辦？","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:01.063000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:08.396000+08:00","text":"你要怎麼公布？","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:08.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:11.497000+08:00","text":"我們都已經下架了，都已經下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:11.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:13.437000+08:00","text":"其他疑似在調查的，什麼時候會有答案？","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:13.457000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:15.718000+08:00","text":"沒有，疑似的是440項，那是再製品……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:15.718000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:16.718000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:16.198000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:17.818000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會公布出來？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:17.818000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:18.858000+08:00","text":"那個已經都下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:19.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:20.079000+08:00","text":"是下架……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:20.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:23.540000+08:00","text":"下架了，但還在調查中嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:23.540000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:24.540000+08:00","text":"你還要化驗嘛！","quality":0.167},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:23.940000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:24.840000+08:00","text":"都下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:24.840000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:26.180000+08:00","text":"下架就不用化驗嗎？","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:26.180000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:29.661000+08:00","text":"你的疑似是不是就是告訴家長這個有問題？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:30.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:31.242000+08:00","text":"本席要請問的……對，但……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:31.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:32.082000+08:00","text":"你說對？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:32.462000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:33.223000+08:00","text":"你要講清楚喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:33.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:34.343000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，沒有錯。7月1號……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:34.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:36.904000+08:00","text":"因為你是用疑似，文字上是「疑似」喔！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:36.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:37.285000+08:00","text":"不是啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:37.545000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:39.926000+08:00","text":"疑似的部分是因為我們根據……","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:40.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:43.548000+08:00","text":"下架不等於是確認，到底是有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:44.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:46.429000+08:00","text":"疑似的原因是因為我們是預防性下架。對啊！那……","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:46.429000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:47.429000+08:00","text":"現在已經下架了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:46.549000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:58.176000+08:00","text":"但我們家長要請問，你的疑似不表示到底是有還是沒有，我們要聽你教育部告訴我們……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:58.176000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:59.176000+08:00","text":"我們對於這一批油做的都已經下架……","quality":0.067},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:43:58.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:43:59.878000+08:00","text":"到底是有還是沒有嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:00.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:02.740000+08:00","text":"這一批油做的都預防性下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:03.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:06.622000+08:00","text":"但是你們不會回到實驗室再查就對了？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:07.102000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:07.863000+08:00","text":"委員，這樣說，我今天可能……","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:07.863000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:10.285000+08:00","text":"你預防性下架，疑似……","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:10.285000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:11.165000+08:00","text":"他們就不打算查了……","quality":0.625},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:12.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:19.251000+08:00","text":"委員，譬如今天有一個蛋糕用這個油去做，不論這一批蛋糕是什麼狀況，總之，你用到這個油就下架，就這樣子。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:20.611000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:26.415000+08:00","text":"我要請問次長，你們公布的疑似是不是表示就是有？","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:27.516000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:31.599000+08:00","text":"對，就是我們……我再講一遍，一次是7月1號那一次……對嘛！","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:31.599000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:32.599000+08:00","text":"這要講清楚喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:31.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:40.285000+08:00","text":"這一次是根據衛福部公布的440項，只要是疑似的，我們有861校、334所幼兒園全部都下架，只要疑似就下架。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:40.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:44.048000+08:00","text":"疑似的你下架，但是我要請教，到底是有還是沒有？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:44.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:45.168000+08:00","text":"就是都下架了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:45.669000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:46.809000+08:00","text":"都下架了，是有還是沒有？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:47.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:48.911000+08:00","text":"有可能有，但是他不想查。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:49.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:50.771000+08:00","text":"只要疑似我們就下架。","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:50.891000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:52.872000+08:00","text":"你怎麼可以不告訴社會大眾呢？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:53.072000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:44:58.815000+08:00","text":"你的疑似下架是預防性下架，但是家長要問的是，我的孩子有沒有吃到毒油啊！","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:44:59.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:00.135000+08:00","text":"到底是有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:00.876000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:03.677000+08:00","text":"這部分如果委員還要相關資料，我們再來清查。","quality":1},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:03.697000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:05.538000+08:00","text":"不是我要相關資料，是家長要確認到底有或沒有？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:05.538000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:06.538000+08:00","text":"我們440項是根據……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:05.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:06.078000+08:00","text":"你趕快去查，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:06.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:07.078000+08:00","text":"我們就根據……","quality":0},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:07.078000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:08.078000+08:00","text":"卓揆已經答應一個禮拜查清楚、公布。","quality":0},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:06.258000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:08.439000+08:00","text":"我們就是根據衛福部的440項來做預防性下架嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:08.799000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:08.879000+08:00","text":"就是有861校、334所……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"楊委員瓊瓔","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:16.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:17.607000+08:00","text":"趕快去查，到底是有還是沒有？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:18.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:18.930000+08:00","text":"就是有，我們才預防性下架。","quality":0.636},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:19.411000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:21.877000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝，我們結束楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:21.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:23.100000+08:00","text":"接下來請葉元之委員。","quality":0.889}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1188,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時33分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言。邀請衛福部。"],["主席：請林次長。"],["林次長靜儀：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是，次長，發生了這麼重大的食安議題，你認為原因到底是出在哪裡？為什麼會導致這樣子？"],["林次長靜儀：第一個事情，關於廠商這邊，在7月3日、7月4日的專家會議裡面，專家這邊認為整個中聯這邊的製程品管HACCP做得並不符合標準，這是第一個部分。第二部分，在相關廠商這一邊，其實在4月份有廠商自主去驗，驗完之後發現有問題，但是遲遲沒有通知地方主管機關跟中央主管機關，所以這個在通報的部分，中間是有一個很大的落差。第三個事情，過去食藥署這邊有訂定相關油質的標準，我們也有一些專案讓地方政府來做檢驗，訂了這個標準，我們希望它半年至少驗一次，不過看情況，當然在地方上驗的頻次其實就真的只有……如果像這麼大的廠商，有一些檢驗的部分，他真的半年才驗一次，我們認為那個頻次不夠，所以這個部分我們未來會要求他們調整。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：以上三項的說明，就表示這一次食安事件你認為最大的漏洞是在這裡？"],["林次長靜儀：這是其中幾個漏洞，都有影響。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都有影響？"],["林次長靜儀：廠商、通報、檢驗……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你也知道漏洞在哪裡，政府的責任在哪裡？"],["林次長靜儀：所以接下來，我們要從……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，你認為這個事件發生，這麼重大的事件，政府的責任在哪裡、政府的缺失在哪裡？"],["林次長靜儀：就是我們剛剛說到的，包含檢驗的頻次，可能未來我們要加強他檢驗的頻次，再來就是對於廠商這邊的通報責任，或者是第三公證方檢驗的通報責任，這個部分未來要在食安法裡面把它加進去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當事情發生的時候，政府告訴我們修法是強化源頭管理、強化製程管理、強化異常通報、強化品質管理、強化數位治理、研議要求大型高風險食品業設置專業的獨立董事等六項措施，是在這一次說一個禮拜內要修食安法的方向，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：是，我們12日提出食安法修法草案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這顯示以前你的責任在哪裡呢？讓人民產生了這麼大的一個食安問題，到現在還不清不楚！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以在這邊要請教你們的修法，目前為止，我們這次的改革是要制度的提升，還是補上過去你監督的這個漏洞呢？"],["林次長靜儀：都要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都要？好，這一句「都要」表示，這一次光在6月11日就已經明確知道，但是到6月30日才呈報上來，業者拿去實驗室，報告也只有給這個業者，政府部門在這一段時間完全都不知道，我們要怎麼改？昨天跟卓揆討論，本席強烈要求未來實驗室只要碰到有問題的、有異常的，就必須要同步的通知，你贊成吧？"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在在朝這個方向去做調整跟修法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這一定要做！我們的修法也並不是這一次食安漏洞完全的一個答案，而是目前為止，我們如果有行政命令可以直接執行的，我們更應該要去做。"],["林次長靜儀：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還是以目前我們的條文有的，我們沒有去做到這個責任，才導致這麼大嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：現在都照相關的標準在處理，所以這也是剛剛跟委員補充的，現在行政命令可以調整的包含檢驗頻次，關於檢驗頻次這個部分，過去食藥署是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！重大的時候……"],["林次長靜儀：過去食藥署是最低要求，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：而且是這麼樣，全國都在用的，不管進入到學校、進入到團膳，數量大的、高比例的，你更應當要加密去檢查，對不對？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，可是我們其實過去4年都有給地方政府相關的專案，但是在中聯油脂的資料裡面，地方政府的稽查113年1次、114年3次。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以務必一定要保障我們的安全。","我再來請教教育部。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：前天告訴我們，依據食藥署公布，教育部透過食材的平臺檢驗出來，包括幼兒園以上的是881家，現在是1,380家，然後你們宣布要研議建入建立高風險的食材供應商，如果經過公告是重大食安的，不得再進入校園。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要請教，你們用「疑似」兩個字告訴社會大眾，1,380所學校到底是有還是沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員可能有些誤解，第一個，我們是針對油品的部分，油品的部分本來15項，現在變50項，我們清查出7個縣市、260所學校直接用到相關油品的部分。委員剛才講的那個數字是後來衛福部又公布用那個油品再製的品項，再製那部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然是再製啊！衛福部荒腔走板，本來說20%以下的沒有關係，現在不行！"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是、不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們反映了，現在一直報、連環爆，再爆又再爆！"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，針對問題！"],["張廖次長萬堅：不對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民眾要問的、家長要問的是，到底我的孩子在學校有沒有吃到毒油？請你告訴我們。"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然這一次的食安有波及到校園，這是事實，我把剛才的話講完。用那個油品再製的是440項，後來我們為什麼用「疑似」呢？因為食安登錄平臺記載的關鍵字有的會不一樣，所以我們是擴大清查，擴大清查後，是861校跟334所幼兒園，我們第一時間公布的時候，就是1,195，並沒有所謂擴大，逐漸清查之後，我們就一一的請它下架、銷毀。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教次長，孩子的午餐不能建立在你事後的補救上，對不對？你一定認同這個原則。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們的孩子到底有沒有吃下相關的毒油？"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前是有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管是再製，還是什麼。"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：家長只是要知道，昨天卓揆質詢的時候說一週之內清查清楚，那麼你多久可以告訴我們，是不是如同卓揆昨天所說的一週之內去清查清楚？因為你們上下都不連貫，你剛剛回答委員說要兩週，到底是什麼時候可以告訴家長？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，剛才那兩週……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：孩子吃的油有沒有健康？"],["張廖次長萬堅：兩週是指他要我們算出那個量，關於我剛剛說的那個量，因為學校的供餐有三種型態，有一種是從外面直接供餐，他用的油……可能這個學校登錄是有的，但是他的量，有時候他有做外面的，我們沒有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：針對我們的學校，控管在教育部，到底什麼時候可以告訴我們，他們到底有沒有吃到毒油？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們第一時間都已經公布了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，什麼時候可以告訴孩子們？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在就已經公布了，我們逐批在公布，因為我們是下游單位、我們是使用者……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在就一次告訴我們，你多久可以告訴我們，他們有沒有吃到毒油？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們現在都已經在公布……"],["主席：什麼時候會把所有「疑似」的調查清楚，一併給？"],["張廖次長萬堅：「疑似」的部分現在會同地方縣府清查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們多久時間可以告訴家長，家長要問的是什麼時候可以知道答案嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實440項「疑似」全部都下架了。"],["林次長靜儀：下架了！"],["張廖次長萬堅：都全部下架了，就是你講的1,195個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，我們要知道到底我的孩子有沒有吃下毒油！"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我再稍微說明一下，這個部分廠商的超標是它的製程有問題、超標，但是今天的這個油品進入到飲食的過程，它不是直接飲油進去，油在烹調過程就會造成苯駢芘的增加，所以這個部分要稍微說一下。第二個部分，您剛剛所提到的像……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：苯駢芘是致癌物，家長很緊張。"],["林次長靜儀：對，所以我要再強調，它的製程是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，孩子的家長、社會大眾需要知道的是，到底我的孩子吃下的有沒有毒，不是一直讓他們在等待。"],["林次長靜儀：委員，我這邊再說明一下……"],["主席：相關的油品什麼時候會全部清查完畢？"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在對於中聯這29批已經全部預防性下架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預防性下架？我們在等待的是，到底我的孩子有沒有吃到毒油，這是教育部的工作嘛！"],["主席：張廖次長剛才回應的，還有其他在調查當中……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，多久時間嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你剛才有一些數字是這樣子，你講的1,385應該是指我們7月1日收到那個油品相關的，我們7月2日通知地方政府清查，已經清查完了，就是260校。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：260校是有問題的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那現在怎麼辦？你要怎麼公布？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們都已經下架了，都已經下架了。"],["主席：其他疑似在調查的，什麼時候會有答案？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，疑似的是440項，那是再製品……"],["主席：什麼時候會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼時候會公布出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：那個已經都下架了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是下架……"],["主席：下架了，但還在調查中嘛！你還要化驗嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：都下架了。"],["主席：下架就不用化驗嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你的疑似是不是就是告訴家長這個有問題？本席要請問的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，但……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說對？你要講清楚喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯，沒有錯。7月1號……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為你是用疑似，文字上是「疑似」喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是啦！疑似的部分是因為我們根據……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下架不等於是確認，到底是有還是沒有？"],["林次長靜儀：疑似的原因是因為我們是預防性下架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！那……"],["林次長靜儀：現在已經下架了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但我們家長要請問，你的疑似不表示到底是有還是沒有，我們要聽你教育部告訴我們……"],["林次長靜儀：我們對於這一批油做的都已經下架……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到底是有還是沒有嘛？"],["林次長靜儀：這一批油做的都預防性下架了。"],["主席：但是你們不會回到實驗室再查就對了？"],["林次長靜儀：委員，這樣說，我今天可能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你預防性下架，疑似……"],["主席：他們就不打算查了……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，譬如今天有一個蛋糕用這個油去做，不論這一批蛋糕是什麼狀況，總之，你用到這個油就下架，就這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我要請問次長，你們公布的疑似是不是表示就是有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，就是我們……我再講一遍，一次是7月1號那一次……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對嘛！這要講清楚喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：這一次是根據衛福部公布的440項，只要是疑似的，我們有861校、334所幼兒園全部都下架，只要疑似就下架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：疑似的你下架，但是我要請教，到底是有還是沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是都下架了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都下架了，是有還是沒有？"],["主席：有可能有，但是他不想查。"],["張廖次長萬堅：只要疑似我們就下架。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼可以不告訴社會大眾呢？你的疑似下架是預防性下架，但是家長要問的是，我的孩子有沒有吃到毒油啊！到底是有還是沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分如果委員還要相關資料，我們再來清查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是我要相關資料，是家長要確認到底有或沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們440項是根據……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你趕快去查，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們就根據……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：卓揆已經答應一個禮拜查清楚、公布。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們就是根據衛福部的440項來做預防性下架嘛！就是有861校、334所……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：趕快去查，到底是有還是沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是有，我們才預防性下架。"],["主席：好，謝謝，我們結束楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}