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我跟你確定一下數字就是現在到底有多少有問題的油品及相關製品流入校園你說教育部在食藥署公佈之後就開始啟動嘛7月2號開始陸陸續續將比對結果通知地方教育局然後截至7月14號開始大概有260家直接有用到油品"},{"start":39.093,"end":46.355,"text":"然後大概有861所學校及334所幼兒園有用到第二層的加工食品那實際上這個數字應該會逐漸持續增加當中因為這個是節省到7月14號為止那我這邊提醒你一件事情因為"},{"start":59.079,"end":85.761,"text":"地方的家長都非常的關心就是小朋友到底有沒有吃到這些油瓶可是地方教育局其實都一直在等教育部或者是衛福部在公佈相關的批號因為它現在的批號是逐漸增加當中總共四月到六月是有二十九個批次那最近最新告訴大家是五個批次有問題嘛卓鴻泰院長是講說一個禮拜之內要把二十九批全部驗完嘛那所以其實現在都還在清查當中"},{"start":86.542,"end":100.8,"text":"那有一件事情是不是可以我不知道教育部還是衛福部可以有一個單一窗口啦就是趕快通知地方政府不然現在地方政府是怎麼知道批號你知道嗎看新聞欸他們是看新聞才知道有問題的批號有問題的批號是什麼"},{"start":103.583,"end":126.252,"text":"這不合理喔我要補充一下因為依照食安法其實本來這些廠商對的比方說中聯的話它上面是台中市政府衛生局它就是要報給台中市衛生局所以沒有道理地方衛生局是看電視才知道地方衛生局就是它的主管機關地方這些廠商像中聯在台中它就要報告給台中市衛生局今天如果是在彰化縣的它就要報告給彰化縣衛生局"},{"start":127.953,"end":151.412,"text":"你跟地方政府講說要盡快公佈因為大家一直在逐漸清查當中我們就是地方政府清查的過程我們直接要求廠商也資料給我們本來應該是他們給地方衛生局地方衛生局給我們後來我們直接認為這樣會有資訊的延遲所以廠商給地方衛生局的同時廠商也要給我們所以之前一開始第一時間的時候那時候大家就講說衛福部可不可以有一個公開透明的機制"},{"start":151.732,"end":181.014,"text":"我們現在有在我們的我們有明確的在公告而且幫委員說是好啦我沒有要找你那個啦第一個就是盡快第二個那個教育部長這個因為現在因為主要各個縣市都是免費營養午餐嘛是都是免費營養午餐所以家長們對於那個食材到底夠不夠營養然後還有它的來源清不清楚其實額外的重視因為免費了嘛大家反而會認為說到底我小朋友吃了到底健不健康有沒有頭痛全部免費是八月以後而已"},{"start":182.534,"end":203.023,"text":"你們現在清查的主要的方式是透過食材登錄網先看食材登錄網有沒有有問題的品牌但是食材登錄網只有品牌沒有批次所以看到品牌之後還要用人工的方式去查去查說他到底有沒有用到有問題的品牌所以他需要一點時間去查現在的問題在這邊"},{"start":205.151,"end":213.318,"text":"我們來看一下其實現在食材登錄網我隨便去看像這個就是有登錄的這個有登錄的但我有去看有些是也沒登錄"},{"start":214.471,"end":243.367,"text":"也有沒登錄的而且我隨便去看還不少啦那這個沒有他有兩個盲點啦第一個盲點是其實學校在登錄的時候有些學校他沒有營養師沒有營養師就變成廠商告訴告訴他們什麼東西他們就只能登錄因為他不知道嘛對不對學校就這樣如果你自己想想看你是你是學校老師那當然是廠商告訴你這個東西油是什麼東西他就照登錄所以萬一廠商有報錯我不要說故意隱匿啦有報錯那就會因為學校有三種心態"},{"start":244.007,"end":267.369,"text":"一個公辦公營一個公辦民營一個是外面來所以他填報的那個公辦公營當然是學校填我現在只學校填的部分如果廠商有報錯像委員說你如果上去你看不到因為我們是規定當天就要登錄他當天如果沒有登錄我們那個學校那個是會做考核的反正就是有看到沒有登錄第二個我想應該"},{"start":268.651,"end":280.2,"text":"實際上我們現在學校的老師也真的很忙啦你也都很清楚啦他們要登錄這個東西其實他們不是只有登錄食材網而已還有三缸EQ啦一大堆行政作業啦真的都做不完我要講那所以"},{"start":283.542,"end":311.715,"text":"其實有一些學校的狀況比較好是為什麼呢它是自立廚房有營養師的我現在跟你討論就想跟你討論這件事情其實我們發現在各縣市免費營養午餐之後大家對這個很重視然後學校自立廚房營養師的做得特別好為什麼呢因為他有一個專職的人力他從一開始食材的把關然後到登錄這些系統因為他是專業在做這件事情嘛到中午在做菜的時候直接到廚房去盯這個就是可以讓家長非常安心"},{"start":312.475,"end":333.33,"text":"可是現在如果是有學校供餐的營養師的部分其實不是每個學校都有按照現行的規定是40個班一個營養師大概的比例以這個比例來換算的話大概所有學校大概三四成有營養師40班一個有的學校不到40班就沒有"},{"start":334.611,"end":347.186,"text":"我是 這個部長當然因為我們現在都在討論那個營養午餐法那你也知道營養午餐法討論這個大家都意見很多如果要等到修法完了才有母法然後讓各校去偵測營養師其實真的有點緩不濟急"},{"start":349.116,"end":376.642,"text":"所以既然就是這個食安事件你也看得出來每個人都非常關心這個學校的食安的問題在營養師的這一塊營養師的這一塊我不知道能不能教育部直接謝謝委員關心喔我把建議講完直接頒布個辦法嘛就是說不要受限40個班就是只要是學校供餐都能夠有營養師然後那就可以有營養師來處理啊家長也放心啊然後食材也可以登錄啊那"},{"start":377.262,"end":403.892,"text":"然後你有辦法的話各縣市的這個教育局他也才比較有這個辦法去跟他的財主單位去爭取說我們要設營養師因為現在免費營養午餐家長真的很重視這一塊所以委員建議很好啦我們會跟地方政府來討論好不好我們就這一次食安事件列入營養午餐法裡面去做完整的考量我們在還沒專法之前我們會跟地方政府好好討論我覺得這個可以先做嘛好不好因為你看大家都非常重視這件事情嘛"},{"start":404.232,"end":410.243,"text":"然後再一個就好還有就是因為之前2014年當時鼎新事件的時候"},{"start":411.209,"end":434.425,"text":"其實教育部那時候有跟就是有請那個消保處去規劃團體輸送作業嘛那我不知道說這一次是不是也是有有這次行政院已經指示了我們有兩個民間的那個團體就是那個消基會跟消保協會他們對於這個球場的部分社會跟學校我們學校也被分配到就是說透過這些將來的那個法律明確之後會透過這些消保團體來球場來幫"},{"start":436.827,"end":456.4,"text":"所以這個確定會有團體訴訟那相關辦法是什麼時候會出來我們會配合行政院應該是會發文給各地方政府就請他們去協助去登記我們會配合行政院的那個來啟動我們一起來啟動已經啟動了嗎已經啟動了團體訴訟已經啟動了團體訴訟已經啟動了那這個實案基金會做相關的指引OK可以好謝謝好謝謝我們結束葉元之委員的質詢"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:36.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:37.838000+08:00","text":"主席好，請教育部次長，謝謝。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:37.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:37.998000+08:00","text":"請張廖次長。","quality":0.4},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:37.998000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:38.998000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:38.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:45:57.461000+08:00","text":"次長，我跟你確定一下數字，就是現在到底有多少問題油品及相關製品流入校園？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:45:57.461000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:46:03.305000+08:00","text":"你說教育部是在7月1號食藥署公布之後就開始啟動？對。","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:46:04.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:46:20.335000+08:00","text":"7月2號開始陸陸續續將比對結果通知地方教育局，然後截至7月14號，大概有260校直接用到油品，有861所學校及334所幼兒園有用到第二層的加工食品……對，440項。","quality":0.948},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:46:20.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:46:20.895000+08:00","text":"但實際上這個數字應該會逐漸、持續增加，因為這是截至7月14號為止……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:46:20.895000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:46:21.895000+08:00","text":"對，如果衛福部上游這邊有公布相關的，我們就會去清查。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:46:21.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:00.741000+08:00","text":"我這邊要提醒你一件事情，因為家長都非常關心小朋友到底有沒有吃到這些油品，可是地方教育局就是一直在等教育部或衛福部公布相關批號，因為現在的批號是逐漸增加當中，總共4月到6月有29個批次，最近最新告訴大家的是5個批次有問題，卓榮泰院長是說一個禮拜內要把29批次全部驗完，所以其實現在都還在清查當中。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:01.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:11.195000+08:00","text":"有一件事情我想建議，就是教育部或衛福部可不可以有一個單一窗口趕快通知地方政府，不然現在地方政府是怎麼知道批號的你知道嗎？","quality":0.842},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:11.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:14.779000+08:00","text":"看新聞，他們是看新聞才知道有問題的批號……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:14.779000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:15.779000+08:00","text":"上游的批號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:14.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:15.800000+08:00","text":"對，有問題的批號是什麼……","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:18.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:26.326000+08:00","text":"委員，這不合理，我要補充一下，因為依照食安法規定，本來這些廠商對應的……比方中聯，他上面是臺中市政府衛生局……","quality":0.87},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:26.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:28.147000+08:00","text":"有問題的批號……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:28.147000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:38.391000+08:00","text":"他就是要報給臺中市衛生局，所以沒有道理地方衛生局是看電視才知道，地方衛生局就是他的主管機關，今天中聯在臺中，他就要報告給臺中市衛生局……","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:38.391000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:39.391000+08:00","text":"衛福部也可以統一公布嘛！","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:39.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:41.232000+08:00","text":"今天如果是在彰化縣，他就要報告給彰化縣衛生局……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:42.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:47.457000+08:00","text":"那你要跟地方政府講要儘快公布，因為大家一直在逐漸清查當中……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:48.137000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:52.561000+08:00","text":"地方政府在清查的過程中，我們直接要求廠商也要把資料給我們……","quality":0.852},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:52.561000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:47:53.561000+08:00","text":"那個訊息要儘快……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:47:52.561000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:01.388000+08:00","text":"本來應該是廠商給地方衛生局，地方衛生局再給我們，後來我們認為這樣會有資訊延遲，所以要求廠商給地方衛生局的同時也要給我們。對嘛！","quality":0.879},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:01.388000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:06.392000+08:00","text":"所以之前一開始、第一時間的時候，大家就講說衛福部可不可以有一個公開透明的機制……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:06.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:10.835000+08:00","text":"我們現在有明確在公告，而且剛剛委員說……","quality":0.882},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:11.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:12.056000+08:00","text":"沒有，沒有，我沒有要找你說明。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:12.676000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:34.212000+08:00","text":"第一，就是要儘快；第二，現在主要是因為各個縣市都是免費營養午餐，所以家長們對於食材到底夠不夠營養，還有食材的來源清不清楚格外的重視，因為是免費的，大家反而會更重視小朋友吃的健不健康、有沒有偷工減料……","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:34.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:35.693000+08:00","text":"全部免費是8月以後。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:37.534000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:47.419000+08:00","text":"你們現在清查的主要方式是透過食材登錄網，先看食材登錄網有沒有有問題的品牌，但是食材登錄網只有品牌，沒有批次，對不對？","quality":0.943},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:48.379000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:53.781000+08:00","text":"所以看到品牌之後，還要用人工方式去清查到底有沒有用到有問題的油……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:53.781000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:54.781000+08:00","text":"對，我們先撈出來。","quality":0},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:48:54.702000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:48:58.023000+08:00","text":"所以這需要一點時間去查，現在的問題在這裡嘛！是。","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:00.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:26+08:00","text":"我們來看一下，我隨便進入食材登錄網看，發現有些有登錄，但也有些是沒登錄的，而且我發現還真不少，這有兩個盲點，第一個盲點，學校在登錄的時候，有些學校沒有營養師，那就變成是廠商告訴他們什麼，他們就登錄什麼，因為他不知道，對不對？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:26.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:37.286000+08:00","text":"你想想看，如果你是學校老師，當然是廠商告訴你這個油是什麼，你就照登錄，萬一廠商報錯，我不要說故意隱匿，廠商報錯，那就會……","quality":0.904},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:37.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:44.473000+08:00","text":"沒有，因為學校有三種型態，一個公辦公營，一個公辦民營，一個是外面廠商；公辦公營當然是學校填……","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:45.754000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:46.695000+08:00","text":"我現在指的是學校填的部分。對、對……","quality":0.643},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:48.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:50.719000+08:00","text":"如果廠商有報錯……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:50.719000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:49:58.846000+08:00","text":"就像委員說的，如果上去看不到，因為我們規定要當天登錄，如果當天沒有登錄，學校會有考核的……","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:49:59.166000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:01.889000+08:00","text":"反正就是有看到沒有登錄的。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:01.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:14.319000+08:00","text":"第二，實際上，現在學校的老師真的很忙，你也很清楚，登錄的部分其實不是只有登錄食材網而已，還有三章一Q、一大堆行政作業，真的都做不完……","quality":0.914},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:14.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:14.619000+08:00","text":"對，我們……","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:18.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:21.143000+08:00","text":"有一些學校的狀況比較好，為什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:21.463000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:25.585000+08:00","text":"因為他們是自立廚房有營養師，我現在就想跟你討論這件事情。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:25.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:33.869000+08:00","text":"其實我們發現在各縣市免費營養午餐之後，大家對這個都很重視，而有自立廚房、有營養師的學校，做得特別好，為什麼？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:33.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:50:46.695000+08:00","text":"因為他有一個專職人力，從一開始的食材把關，到登錄這些系統，他是專業在做這件事情；到了中午做菜的時候，還會直接到廚房盯，這就讓家長非常安心。","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:50:47.475000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:51:08.310000+08:00","text":"可是由學校供餐的部分，並不是每個學校都有營養師，按照現行規定，40個班級有一個營養師，以比例換算的話，大概三、四成的學校有，有的學校不到40班，就沒有營養師。","quality":0.788},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:51:11.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:51:33.938000+08:00","text":"次長，因為我們現在在討論營養午餐法，你也知道針對營養午餐法大家的意見很多，如果等到修法完成才有母法，然後讓各校增設營養師，其實是有點緩不濟急，既然發生這個食安事件，你也看得出來每個人都非常關心學校的食安問題，是不是在營養師這一塊教育部可以直接頒布一個……","quality":0.838},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:51:34.078000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:51:34.738000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員關心……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:51:35.558000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:51:36.759000+08:00","text":"讓我把建議講完。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:51:37.779000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:51:51.122000+08:00","text":"教育部可以直接頒布辦法，不須受限40個班級，只要是學校供餐都能夠有營養師，那就可以由營養師處理，家長也放心，然後食材也可以登錄。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:51:53.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:04.026000+08:00","text":"如果有相關辦法，各縣市教育局也才比較有辦法跟財主單位爭取要設置營養師，因為現在是免費營養午餐，家長真的很重視這一塊。","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:04.607000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:06.727000+08:00","text":"委員的建議很好，我們會跟地方政府討論。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:06.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:10.909000+08:00","text":"好，這一次的食安事件就列入營養午餐法裡去做完整考量。","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:11.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:14.590000+08:00","text":"在還沒有專法之前，我們會跟地方政府好好討論。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:14.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:16.271000+08:00","text":"我覺得這個可以先做，好不好？","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:17.091000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:18.752000+08:00","text":"你看，大家都非常重視這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:21.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:30.992000+08:00","text":"另外，關於之前2014年的頂新事件，那時候教育部有請消保處規劃團體訴訟作業……對。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:31.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:33.614000+08:00","text":"我不知道這一次是不是也是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:33.694000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:49.405000+08:00","text":"有、有，這次行政院已經指示兩個民間團體，就是消基會跟消保協會，針對求償部分，包括社會跟學校，我們學校也被分配到，就是將來法律明確之後，會透過這些消保團體來求償。","quality":0.901},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:51.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:53.148000+08:00","text":"所以這個確定會有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:53.989000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:53.989000+08:00","text":"有、有，有團體訴訟。","quality":0.571},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:54.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:56.870000+08:00","text":"相關辦法什麼時候會出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:56.870000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:52:57.671000+08:00","text":"我們會配合行政院……","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:52:57.871000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:02.174000+08:00","text":"應該是會發文給各地方政府嘛，請他們協助去登記。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:02.174000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:07.257000+08:00","text":"對，因為現在在釐清責任，正在處理，我們會配合行政院一起來啟動……已經啟動了嘛？","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"張廖次長萬堅","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:07.378000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:07.678000+08:00","text":"已經啟動了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:08.058000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:08.518000+08:00","text":"團體訴訟已經啟動了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:09.559000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:09.639000+08:00","text":"團體訴訟已經啟動了是不是？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:09.639000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:10.639000+08:00","text":"我說針對學校的部分。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林次長靜儀","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:09.959000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:10.219000+08:00","text":"團體訴訟已經啟動了，食安基金會做相關的指引。","quality":0.45},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:10.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:10.700000+08:00","text":"OK，可以。","quality":1},{"speaker":"葉委員元之","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:10.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:11.060000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:11.140000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:11.400000+08:00","text":"結束葉元之委員質詢。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:11.900000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:15.900000+08:00","text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:16.200000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:45.342857+08:00","text":"本日會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週之內以書面答復委員，另要求期限者，從其所定；本日會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場的委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:45.642857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:48.500000+08:00","text":"星期四上午9點繼續開會。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:48.800000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:51.371429+08:00","text":"休息，謝謝，大家辛苦了。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-15T12:53:51.671429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-15T12:53:52.814286+08:00","text":"休息（12時53分）","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1320,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時45分）主席好，請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請張廖次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長，我跟你確定一下數字，就是現在到底有多少問題油品及相關製品流入校園？你說教育部是在7月1號食藥署公布之後就開始啟動？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：7月2號開始陸陸續續將比對結果通知地方教育局，然後截至7月14號，大概有260校直接用到油品，有861所學校及334所幼兒園有用到第二層的加工食品……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，440項。"],["葉委員元之：但實際上這個數字應該會逐漸、持續增加，因為這是截至7月14號為止……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，如果衛福部上游這邊有公布相關的，我們就會去清查。"],["葉委員元之：我這邊要提醒你一件事情，因為家長都非常關心小朋友到底有沒有吃到這些油品，可是地方教育局就是一直在等教育部或衛福部公布相關批號，因為現在的批號是逐漸增加當中，總共4月到6月有29個批次，最近最新告訴大家的是5個批次有問題，卓榮泰院長是說一個禮拜內要把29批次全部驗完，所以其實現在都還在清查當中。有一件事情我想建議，就是教育部或衛福部可不可以有一個單一窗口趕快通知地方政府，不然現在地方政府是怎麼知道批號的你知道嗎？看新聞，他們是看新聞才知道有問題的批號……"],["張廖次長萬堅：上游的批號……"],["葉委員元之：對，有問題的批號是什麼……"],["林次長靜儀：委員，這不合理，我要補充一下，因為依照食安法規定，本來這些廠商對應的……比方中聯，他上面是臺中市政府衛生局……"],["葉委員元之：有問題的批號……"],["林次長靜儀：他就是要報給臺中市衛生局，所以沒有道理地方衛生局是看電視才知道，地方衛生局就是他的主管機關，今天中聯在臺中，他就要報告給臺中市衛生局……"],["葉委員元之：衛福部也可以統一公布嘛！"],["林次長靜儀：今天如果是在彰化縣，他就要報告給彰化縣衛生局……"],["葉委員元之：那你要跟地方政府講要儘快公布，因為大家一直在逐漸清查當中……"],["林次長靜儀：地方政府在清查的過程中，我們直接要求廠商也要把資料給我們……"],["葉委員元之：那個訊息要儘快……"],["林次長靜儀：本來應該是廠商給地方衛生局，地方衛生局再給我們，後來我們認為這樣會有資訊延遲，所以要求廠商給地方衛生局的同時也要給我們。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！所以之前一開始、第一時間的時候，大家就講說衛福部可不可以有一個公開透明的機制……"],["林次長靜儀：我們現在有明確在公告，而且剛剛委員說……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，沒有，我沒有要找你說明。第一，就是要儘快；第二，現在主要是因為各個縣市都是免費營養午餐，所以家長們對於食材到底夠不夠營養，還有食材的來源清不清楚格外的重視，因為是免費的，大家反而會更重視小朋友吃的健不健康、有沒有偷工減料……"],["張廖次長萬堅：全部免費是8月以後。"],["葉委員元之：你們現在清查的主要方式是透過食材登錄網，先看食材登錄網有沒有有問題的品牌，但是食材登錄網只有品牌，沒有批次，對不對？所以看到品牌之後，還要用人工方式去清查到底有沒有用到有問題的油……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們先撈出來。"],["葉委員元之：所以這需要一點時間去查，現在的問題在這裡嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["葉委員元之：我們來看一下，我隨便進入食材登錄網看，發現有些有登錄，但也有些是沒登錄的，而且我發現還真不少，這有兩個盲點，第一個盲點，學校在登錄的時候，有些學校沒有營養師，那就變成是廠商告訴他們什麼，他們就登錄什麼，因為他不知道，對不對？你想想看，如果你是學校老師，當然是廠商告訴你這個油是什麼，你就照登錄，萬一廠商報錯，我不要說故意隱匿，廠商報錯，那就會……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，因為學校有三種型態，一個公辦公營，一個公辦民營，一個是外面廠商；公辦公營當然是學校填……"],["葉委員元之：我現在指的是學校填的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對……"],["葉委員元之：如果廠商有報錯……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就像委員說的，如果上去看不到，因為我們規定要當天登錄，如果當天沒有登錄，學校會有考核的……"],["葉委員元之：反正就是有看到沒有登錄的。第二，實際上，現在學校的老師真的很忙，你也很清楚，登錄的部分其實不是只有登錄食材網而已，還有三章一Q、一大堆行政作業，真的都做不完……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們……"],["葉委員元之：有一些學校的狀況比較好，為什麼？因為他們是自立廚房有營養師，我現在就想跟你討論這件事情。其實我們發現在各縣市免費營養午餐之後，大家對這個都很重視，而有自立廚房、有營養師的學校，做得特別好，為什麼？因為他有一個專職人力，從一開始的食材把關，到登錄這些系統，他是專業在做這件事情；到了中午做菜的時候，還會直接到廚房盯，這就讓家長非常安心。可是由學校供餐的部分，並不是每個學校都有營養師，按照現行規定，40個班級有一個營養師，以比例換算的話，大概三、四成的學校有，有的學校不到40班，就沒有營養師。次長，因為我們現在在討論營養午餐法，你也知道針對營養午餐法大家的意見很多，如果等到修法完成才有母法，然後讓各校增設營養師，其實是有點緩不濟急，既然發生這個食安事件，你也看得出來每個人都非常關心學校的食安問題，是不是在營養師這一塊教育部可以直接頒布一個……"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員關心……"],["葉委員元之：讓我把建議講完。教育部可以直接頒布辦法，不須受限40個班級，只要是學校供餐都能夠有營養師，那就可以由營養師處理，家長也放心，然後食材也可以登錄。如果有相關辦法，各縣市教育局也才比較有辦法跟財主單位爭取要設置營養師，因為現在是免費營養午餐，家長真的很重視這一塊。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的建議很好，我們會跟地方政府討論。"],["主席：好，這一次的食安事件就列入營養午餐法裡去做完整考量。"],["張廖次長萬堅：在還沒有專法之前，我們會跟地方政府好好討論。"],["葉委員元之：我覺得這個可以先做，好不好？你看，大家都非常重視這件事情。另外，關於之前2014年的頂新事件，那時候教育部有請消保處規劃團體訴訟作業……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：我不知道這一次是不是也是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：有、有，這次行政院已經指示兩個民間團體，就是消基會跟消保協會，針對求償部分，包括社會跟學校，我們學校也被分配到，就是將來法律明確之後，會透過這些消保團體來求償。"],["葉委員元之：所以這個確定會有……"],["張廖次長萬堅：有、有，有團體訴訟。"],["葉委員元之：相關辦法什麼時候會出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會配合行政院……"],["葉委員元之：應該是會發文給各地方政府嘛，請他們協助去登記。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，因為現在在釐清責任，正在處理，我們會配合行政院一起來啟動……已經啟動了嘛？已經啟動了。"],["林次長靜儀：團體訴訟已經啟動了。"],["葉委員元之：團體訴訟已經啟動了是不是？我說針對學校的部分。"],["林次長靜儀：團體訴訟已經啟動了，食安基金會做相關的指引。"],["葉委員元之：OK，可以。好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。結束葉元之委員質詢。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。本日會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢；委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於一週之內以書面答復委員，另要求期限者，從其所定；本日會議議程已進行完畢，倘有不在場的委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。","星期四上午9點繼續開會。休息，謝謝，大家辛苦了。","休息（12時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":426,"meet_id":"委員會-11-5-20-22","speakers":["李彥秀","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","林岱樺","賴惠員","劉書彬","顏寬恒","李坤城","林思銘","羅明才","王世堅","許忠信","洪孟楷","王育敏","楊瓊瓔","葉元之"],"page_start":357,"meetingDate":["2026-07-15"],"gazette_id":"1156302","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156302_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期財政委員會第22次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請審計部陳審計長瑞敏、行政院主計總處陳主計長淑姿、衛生福利部石部長崇良、教育部鄭部\n長英耀就「政府食品安全管理機制、食安五環與校園食安預算執行及審核結果」進行專題報告，\n並備質詢","agenda_id":"1156302_00004"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}