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各位委員先進今天應邀至外交及國防委員會進行專案報告承蒙各位委員長期對於國軍心理衛生工作的關切與支持在此表達誠摯敬意與謝忱官兵監護保家衛國的使命身心健康攸關部隊穩定與戰力的關鍵"},{"start":1905.584,"end":1931.123,"text":"為維護官兵身心鬍子與部隊整體運作國防部積極推展心理衛生工作建構全方位心理健康支持體系接續由本部政治專案局局長史樹仁中將就國軍心理衛生制度實施後製影響探討心理求助樣態原因分析及策進作為向各位委員提出專案報告謝謝"},{"start":1941.321,"end":1955,"text":"國軍心理衛生制度實施後之影響探討心理求助樣態原因分析及測定作為專題報告依前言自2014年起世界衛生組織將自殺列為全球公共衛生優先事項"},{"start":1956.661,"end":1984.441,"text":"心理健康议题越受国际与社会大众重视据卫生福利部统计资料指出国人113年初死亡率每10万人口为17.4人达近10年新高显见自杀防治工作日趋严峻国军为社会缩影在防治工作上也面临相同挑战然在各级干部共同努力下国军自杀趋势较去年同期已有缓降"},{"start":1985.7,"end":2000.761,"text":"國防部將持續推動心理衛生工作積極協助官兵適應部隊狀況適應環境培養良好人際關係完善支持網絡促進部隊團結合作以堅實國軍戰力而國軍心理衛生制度執行情形"},{"start":2002.152,"end":2015.002,"text":"國軍心理衛生機制是依照初級發掘預防二級介入輔導三級專業處遇的三級防處為架構明確律定各級單位權責以及工作流程並鏈接民間及醫療等輔導資源形成資源網絡"},{"start":2018.925,"end":2040.965,"text":"同时透过教育训练与辅导转介等做法提升官兵心理卫生观念及生活适应能力舒缓个人心理困扰及部队适应情形透过心理辅导及协助转介医疗引导国军官兵正向思考消弥浅存问题相关说明如后一 心理卫生制度与成效"},{"start":2042.586,"end":2062.874,"text":"1初級發掘預防由班牌聯營及基層領導幹部負責第一線的工作藉教育推廣生活觀察量表施策與家屬聯繫等作為及早發掘需協助對象主動陪伴關懷114年迄今發掘具心理困擾官兵計7749人均及時提供關懷務談"},{"start":2067.156,"end":2071.965,"text":"經評估聚關風險個案轉介旅籍以上的新衛中心由新府人員進行輔導"},{"start":2074.09,"end":2102.169,"text":"官部二级介入辅导由旅籍以上新卫中心新辅人员负责受理转介个案或个别求助官兵并透由心理卫生宣教干部教育咨询与实务工作扶防等方式支援各级单位的新辅工作一百一十四年迄今执行个别团体辅导心理卫生教育心理评量工具施测等工作即三十八万九千四百二十七人次照顾官兵心理健康"},{"start":2103.79,"end":2129.001,"text":"3 三級專業儲育由國軍醫院的身心科醫師及桃園、台中、高雄、花蓮地區心理衛生中心具證照的心腑人員,針對基層部隊或旅籍以上行為中心轉介個案,提供精神醫療與心理諮商,並協助安置急性個案住院,發揮醫療與心理重建的功能。2 心理健康照護方案"},{"start":2130.731,"end":2148.438,"text":"一為促使官兵勇於求助本部以各自保護無需轉介主動求助為核心策略自114年2月13日起推行國軍心理健康照護方案與328所的民間諮商輔導機構合作每人每年補助6次輔導費用每次1600元40分鐘"},{"start":2153.103,"end":2168.224,"text":"二 其十月三十一日子使用方案官兵即有四千八百六十人次自主預約比例為百分之九十七顯示重視各自保護的照護措施官兵無需透過幹部轉介即可預約大幅降低使用的門檻"},{"start":2168.945,"end":2184.997,"text":"增加主動求助意願有效協助官兵解決心理困擾合作機構在提供服務期間如果評估官兵具有自殺的企圖或是高風險的時候將及時通知地區心理衛生中心介入協處與確保官兵的安全"},{"start":2185.757,"end":2210.927,"text":"三 年度体检心理健康检查自113年7月1日起结合每年定期体检时机军医局设置心理健康检查专区由身心科医师 心理师及社工师针对官兵实施检视健康量表的审视及访谈114年计筛率873元据风险人员均由各级干部或新府人员纳管辅导"},{"start":2212.586,"end":2231.769,"text":"四 強化防處的智能教育劃五一 專案巡迴宣教配合軍風紀專案巡迴宣教以國軍心理衛生工作提醒事項為重點針對一年級以上主管及士官督導長等人授課以實務案例方式宣講精進基層輔導實務工作及強化幹部發掘維安應處能力統計114年共計辦理實務場次3960人次參加"},{"start":2241.071,"end":2266.522,"text":"掛物二 辦理自殺防治巡迴宣教為提升自殺防治效能增進官兵心理健康由國軍自殺防治中心編組國軍醫院身心科醫師實施宣教以自殺防治認識精神疾病及壓力調適等主題赴各單位實施巡迴宣教建立官兵自我覺察及自助助人正確心理衛生觀念增進官兵心理健康114年共執行75場次"},{"start":2270.044,"end":2270.649,"text":"79人次參加"},{"start":2272.406,"end":2301.322,"text":"三 心理求助样态的原意分析114年国军官兵求助样态经分析其原因包括身心健康 环境适应行为偏差 家庭因素 经济因素及感情因素等另进一步以单位类型及阶级分析以心训单位较为显著且其中以二兵居多 少中尉次之显见心境或年资较浅的人员确实较具心理照顾需求也是我们辅导关怀的重点"},{"start":2302.162,"end":2318.275,"text":"四 策進作為為精進國軍輔導工作滿足官兵心理需求嚴提下列策進作為如次一 精進心理健康照護方案為確保諮商服務品質除由各地區新衛中心針對合作機構實施集合之外"},{"start":2319.696,"end":2347.068,"text":"115年將委請第三方專業單位例如中華民國諮商心理師公會全聯會中華民國社會工作師公會全聯會台灣輔導與諮商學會透過客觀專業的立場協助評估方案執行效益作為未來方案改善及策進的依據二 擴大服務資源主動鏈接衛生服務部 福利部協助提供合法立案輔導機構由本部爭取增加合作數量"},{"start":2347.728,"end":2360.85,"text":"另外 協助媒合民間輔導機構赴外離島與新訓單位提供駐點服務導入專業輔導能量以提升官兵諮商便捷性完善多元輔導管道三 提升新輔專業能量"},{"start":2363.215,"end":2389.054,"text":"關五一 輔導新輔人員取得專業證照國軍新輔人員是心理衛生工作的關鍵角色本部持續輔導取得專業證照並配合每年國家考試時間策辦諮商心理及社會工作室證照研習班統計今年度已經有31位順利考取證照關五二 引進具國家證照新輔人力因應官兵心理健康需求日益增加"},{"start":2390.994,"end":2410.586,"text":"為快速補充基層部隊新輔量能114年招聘民間具心理或社工師國家證照人員24元目前已禁用18元115年規劃再招聘20元以充實國軍專業輔導能量照顧官兵心理健康需求四 強化鏈結外部專業領域"},{"start":2412.608,"end":2437.55,"text":"積極參與衛福部自殺防治諮詢會議及國軍自殺防治中心聯繫會議並由國防部定期邀集衛福部心理健康司、台灣自殺防治學會、諮商心理師及社會師公會等單位專家共同檢視國軍心理衛生工作藉專業討論與經驗交流確保各項政策措施符合專業標準以健全官兵心理輔導支持機制"},{"start":2439.458,"end":2465.256,"text":"感謝大院對國軍心理衛生工作的支持與指導因應官兵多樣化的心理需求本部將持續精進透遊鏈結民間資源強化三級防處機制及推動多元心理衛生教育等作為必使官兵照顧與心理輔導工作更增周延營造健康與支持性的服役環境穩定部隊整體戰力以上報告敬請各位委員先進支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2472.352,"end":2487.652,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分截止發言登記如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2499.565,"end":2510.606,"text":"羅遠"},{"start":2511.395,"end":2537.582,"text":"部長好 部長有關國軍心理衛生制度跟如何減少國軍智商的這一題其實在去年6月的時候本席也曾經跟部長做過議題的探討雖然說我們一直都有三級的防處機制可是我們卻發現有超過八成的智商事件未在初級發掘預防這個階段就被及時的發現也許是因為個案它的壓力本身"},{"start":2537.762,"end":2552.619,"text":"就是來自於上級或者是說他根本就不信任這個機制所以我們發現有些很遺憾的事情就發生了他就用智商的方式來做解決我也記得上次我們也曾經討論過軍中心腹人員跟專業證照不足的問題"},{"start":2556.844,"end":2576.988,"text":"那我也曾經有要求就是說國防部呢要引進一些民間的這個專業的這個機構來做這個合作那我從今天的報告呢真的有看到國防部呢有做檢討跟做這個改善那國防部呢今年初有啟動的心理健康照護照護方案那我剛才看報告有提到就是說有跟國內328"},{"start":2579.569,"end":2594.75,"text":"所的民間諮商輔導機構來做合作每個人每年有六次每次40分鐘然後這都可以自行去預約也不需要轉介然後也強調不插健保卡不留就醫記錄確保私密"},{"start":2597.733,"end":2612.039,"text":"再來我們有看到身心調適假也是在今年11月也入法了就是說我們的軍官士官志願役的士兵每一年有三天的身心調適假我想請問一下就是說這328所的民間諮詢輔導機構都是衛福部"},{"start":2617.741,"end":2646.469,"text":"來做引介的嗎 是嗎我所了解是說全國有600多家那我們選擇了328所民間的諮商輔導機構來做合作這個是衛福部引介的委員好 我是政戰局局長600多家我們都由各地區的行為中心特別發函跟打電話來源都是這600多家也都是從衛福部所提供的名單裡面去尋找"},{"start":2647.877,"end":2674.15,"text":"所以就是說每一家六百多家我們都有去函就是跟他們說是不是要尋求這個合作然後目前有意願的是三百二十八家是的那我想了解就是說因為我們的軍中有軍中的特有的文化那當然還有一些勤務這些訓練壓力等等這些我不曉得很清楚這些三百二十八家對於軍中的文化等等對於我們的整個"},{"start":2676.471,"end":2699.876,"text":"單位的這個了不了解因為畢竟軍中它在我們在過去的話軍中有軍中的特有文化這個壓力可能不是一般跟民眾可能是所面臨的這個壓力可能這個不是那麼的一樣那這些328所的民間諮詢單位它到底對軍中了不了解 請問"},{"start":2701.778,"end":2727.246,"text":"委員這個指教也是相當精確就是說一般在民間的這些我們的合作機構他通常會對感情因素經濟因素或者是家庭因素這些都會比較熟悉那如果是屬於他這個環境適應因素或者是訓練給他帶來的一些壓力等等所以"},{"start":2728.626,"end":2737.713,"text":"也許他對這方面軍中的這個事務並不是那麼的熟悉所以我們現在有在規劃我們要跟他們進行一個交流就是說"},{"start":2739.481,"end":2760.657,"text":"他們本來講說要做一些教育訓練我說這個應該不叫教育訓練應該是做一個交流就是說我們應該要應該會明年就會來開始進行然後我們會來分北中南東四個地區然後分別跟這些機構來進行交流讓他們來"},{"start":2762.891,"end":2778.263,"text":"比較充分的理解軍中的這種環境軍中的組織 軍中的訓練因為我有看到就是說我們國軍有邀請這相關的民間單位可能來給我們的這些軍官 可能這些"},{"start":2779.624,"end":2792.378,"text":"新府人員等等來上一些課程可是我覺得在這之前我反而覺得這328所的民間諮商機構更是要先來了解我們金鐘的整個結構"},{"start":2794.06,"end":2812.088,"text":"我是覺得這樣子的輔導才能夠到位啦這是我所看到當然部長剛剛也有提到了我們不是叫他們來上課我們要先來做一個交流我想說這是應該要先做互相的了解我覺得這個是一個基本要做的事情"},{"start":2813.168,"end":2839.753,"text":"對 這些民間的合作機構能夠更了解軍動的文化環境那這個整體的服務品質我想就能夠提升是 OK那部長也有發現到這個問題因為我在看這個報告的時候我想說怎麼沒有讓他們先來了解我們軍動到底是一個怎麼樣的文化結構OK 好那再來還有一點就是說我們有提到說那等於是說我們現在是用雙軌的一個方式如果你不想"},{"start":2841.494,"end":2861.353,"text":"經過這個三級防處機制的這個國軍你可以尋求這個心理健康照顧方案嘛 對不對那我們一再強調就是說要確保這個國軍的這個私密因為他提到就是說不插健保卡不留就醫記錄就是要保密嘛"},{"start":2861.773,"end":2889.822,"text":"那類似這樣子的話我們如何在保密的前提之下同時不影響高風險個案的單位在單位裡面的追蹤那當然我有看到就是說你們好像也會經過一個比如說有高風險的會通知這個地區心理衛生中心介入協處那如果這樣子的話這個如果有高風險的這個個案的話也會通報我們國防部嗎會是這樣子嗎我們的做法就是說"},{"start":2890.942,"end":2912.559,"text":"我們當然核心還是各自保護那無需轉介然後希望能夠主動求助但是如果合作的機構評估他是有具有自殺意圖或高風險的時候他轉介到是轉介到我們的地區衛生中心我們的地區衛生中心就是設在應該是幾個北中南東的醫院裡面四個醫院裡面的"},{"start":2915.241,"end":2934.879,"text":"這個辛苦人 因為他們是有證照的是這屬於三級的這部分的專業處於所以或者是到醫院的身心科身心科那或者是這個到這個由這個具有證照的辛苦人員來針對這些人來做一個精神醫療跟心理治療這個監獄局可能在"},{"start":2936.056,"end":2957.012,"text":"要做補充如果說在民間的機構他認為有需要進一步的輔導或者甚至治療他可以轉到我們醫院的地區行為中心那裡面有心服官有社公司可以協助那如果地區行為中心覺得他需要疾病治療"},{"start":2959.334,"end":2976.972,"text":"轉接到我們的精神科那該門診就門診該住院就住院可是那軍中會接到通報就是說這個人其實他有高風險也是在單位裡面也要特別注意還是說對於他的這個介入只到這個地區心理衛生中心而已"},{"start":2978.112,"end":2998.56,"text":"第七心理卫生中心处理以后看他需不需要转介给精神科医师不管需不需要转介跟他的单位的心腹单位都会保持联系都会保持联系所以会从他的第一级到第二级旅籍到心卫中心到精神科这个都是会联系的而且都会在保密的状况之下"},{"start":2998.84,"end":3013.688,"text":"OK 好了解OK 那再來還有一點就是說我有看到就是說每人每年是六次根據本席所了解就是說像智商剛開始的這個第一個月幾乎每個禮拜固定都要去面談"},{"start":3014.608,"end":3034.504,"text":"因為這是要建立彼此之間的這個信任所以才想了解這個案主的這個狀況等等所以他對這個的話當然也有我們有在想說是不是在這個前期的時候我們會增加免費諮商的這個次數因為我們看是一年只有六次這個一年要幾次這個部分我們最先開始是參照那個衛福部他有一個"},{"start":3045.841,"end":3050.256,"text":"心理健康支持方案嘛它是提供三次那我們"},{"start":3051.876,"end":3075.131,"text":"今年的2月開始實施的時候就是提供6次那這個部分要幾次這個部分我想我們可以來再跟專家學者來研議來再行評估這個有沒有提高的可能性因為這個當上路可以理解是要看看說後面如果需要因為衛福部那邊我們也會跟他們再商量一下"},{"start":3075.751,"end":3104.19,"text":"OK 好當然剛剛一開始部長就有提到就是說官兵是捐付保家衛國的這個使命所以身心健康是需要穩定這當然也是站立的這個關鍵當然是說這個議題從過去到現在我們討論了很多當然我也看到了國防部確確實實這一年來確實有在做一些檢討跟改善那真的是我們希望能夠建立一個全方位的心理健康支持的這個體系OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":3110.13,"end":3115.312,"text":"接下來請林益君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長是 林委員好"},{"start":3136.877,"end":3161.113,"text":"部長早最近這幾天中國解放軍對外的動作非常多首先是上週六發動了聯合戰備的警訊派出了大批的軍機艦故意騷擾我們台灣周圍的海空域然後前天禮拜一到今天又在黃海進行海空實彈的軍演那請問部長那國防部判斷中共最近這兩次進行軍事行動的目的是什麼"},{"start":3161.833,"end":3164.275,"text":"是為了回應美國對台灣軍售的表達抗議嗎還是為了應對美國日本和菲律賓和南海的共同軍演還是為了回應日本高市早苗的首相最近談判的台灣有事的這個整個的言論呢"},{"start":3179.655,"end":3204.025,"text":"聯合戰備警巡我們都會充分明確掌握他的相關的一些實施的狀況那現在當然判斷還是一個週期性的一個聯合戰備警巡的一些作為那面對這樣的共軍的派遣軍機艦在逼近我們的固有的領土這樣國軍有沒有什麼進行跟監反制還是有沒有什麼比較積極的作為"},{"start":3205.495,"end":3224.924,"text":"您說跟針對他們的聯合戰備警訊嗎我們都會依照我們的這個突發狀況處置規定來及時應處然後是這個他們的這個真火的威脅程度我們會來看怎麼樣子部署相關的兵火力來應處威脅"},{"start":3227.523,"end":3254.523,"text":"我想細節的部分可能不太適宜來做一個公開的討論但是我們面對這個中國在我們周遭所進行的這些相關的這些沒關係 部長可以答就答如果是機密的方面你就可以斟酌對 我們都會適切的來應酬那再請教部長一個立場性的問題請問我們國防部到底有沒有把釣魚台視為領土呢"},{"start":3255.504,"end":3258.685,"text":"就是因為釣魚台是不是也是在我們的防空識別區裡面那為什麼每次公居在釣魚台周邊在活動的時候我們台灣卻是透過日本防衛省公布的資訊才知道那部長我們國防部現在到底是否會驅離在釣魚台附近的活動的中共軍機艦呢還是根本我們就消極不管還是就是也不敢管還是反正日本的自衛隊會去管會去驅離所以我們就也不理"},{"start":3284.612,"end":3307.517,"text":"我們在我們的應變區內我們都會加以世界的處置那我們有一個應變區的範圍那這個部分它相關不管是在釣魚台周邊的活動或者是進入那個它有些狀況情況之下確實都會進入我們的應變區那我們都會加以來處置所以還是會處理是嗎對 進入應變區我們都會處置"},{"start":3310.342,"end":3323.217,"text":"那從近期的區域的其實發現感覺中國開始刻意對太平洋周章國家都進行干擾並和太平洋周邊的國家發生一些摩擦中國也開始擴大灰色地帶行動的範圍從釣魚"},{"start":3325.84,"end":3329.304,"text":"到南海都有但是對台灣的侵擾是最頻繁的可以請問部長國防部隊針對這些區域的情勢發展還有中國各種對外的侵擾的行動有沒有掌握還是有沒有了解這整個狀況"},{"start":3343.362,"end":3361.244,"text":"我們對整個區域情勢的動態我們都要加以掌握我們都要加以掌握這個區域當然也包括了你講的包括東海的情勢也包括南海的區域情勢當然對台海周邊的區域情勢我們也要全部加以掌握"},{"start":3363.533,"end":3382.984,"text":"那在接下來的話就是再問一下就是最近美國陸軍的部長受訪的時候有爆料說美國的大型國防承包商騙美軍買了超貴的零件這邊報導更具體的提到黑鷹直升機的一個螢幕的旋鈕那在整機採購的時候要價高達47000美元"},{"start":3387.327,"end":3391.648,"text":"我看換成台幣的匯率的話大概是新台幣150萬左右那請問部長我們台灣是否也有向美國採購60架與美軍相同型號的黑鷹直升機呢因為這個型號採用的是玻璃化的座窗可是看起來好像應該也是有螢幕上面的旋鈕那部長當初採購這個是不是我們有採購呢還是我們有沒有"},{"start":3414.096,"end":3437.208,"text":"一些相關的料件就是整個買貴了呢部長有了解嗎我們軍售案在獲得美方提供報價資料跟發料書文件的時候都會有需求當然就是各軍種會運用一些仿商的這個選價的收集報價資料還有歷史的採購比較做一些比對那至於剛剛委員問的比較細節那個部分是不是請陸選來"},{"start":3438.691,"end":3460.197,"text":"简单向委员报告我们的黑鹰的相关的料件是循军售管道那委员所关切这个案子是是美国他们本身自己美国的黑鹰发生的问题那我们虽然是循军售管道但是相关的督管机制包含到联邦政府的责任署还有美国国防部的督察办公室还有其他的省监单位"},{"start":3460.897,"end":3478.348,"text":"也都會協助我們如果我們對這些價格感覺有益的話我們都會反映到這個美國這些上述的管道那目前我們所採購的是有相關的訂單有採購相關的零附件但目前在價格上面並沒有如美軍它本身自己的飛機採購的這個情勢"},{"start":3481.544,"end":3485.887,"text":"所以國防部到底有沒有人力集合和發現我們對美國這些軍事採購是不是有被當鎧子還是有沒有買到比別人貴的軍購你們有去集合過嗎還是只是等到美國政府自己發現了然後我們就後知後覺等待通知"},{"start":3498.456,"end":3511.441,"text":"除了我們國防部自己內部有會去了解之外審計部也都會到我們的軍總也包含到我們的美團去做相關的戰務的了解是否有委員該所述這個情勢"},{"start":3513.015,"end":3525.818,"text":"好那我再問一個問題就是那當初的愛國者飛彈結果是靠美國政府主動發現的像這件事情他告知台灣被多收了新台幣52億那這筆錢後來如何處理了呢美方已經退款了嗎還是不了了之呢您講的是那個雷神的就是52億的全部都退了全部都退回來就對了"},{"start":3540.168,"end":3565.478,"text":"那還是提醒一下部長這前幾天美國才宣布軍售台灣價值新台幣102億的戰機零副料件在美國的安和局的新聞稿中有提到軍售品項包含了非自式的零件這表示裡面有一些特規的零件或者是庫存比較久的零件無論具體是什麼非自式的零件表示美方可能是沒有在使用也就是我們可能會比較難做到比"},{"start":3567.178,"end":3595.998,"text":"所以這邊提醒一下國防部未來可能要緊盯一下這整個軍購的內容絕對是不可以被買貴的請國防部未來一定要謹慎是 鮑委員那個因為我們這個飛機航才的合約它是一個開口式的多年度的合約那各個項目裡面我們除了在接下來智慧國會之後進入預約程序我們會逐項的去檢視之外在它後續交運的時候我們也會透過駐美跟在台接收的兩個管道針對所有"},{"start":3597.26,"end":3604.02,"text":"行財跟其他料件的部分我們會做一個深入的檢視只要有問題我們就會尋管道來更換或是索賠"},{"start":3605.578,"end":3611.003,"text":"好那還有一個問題就是我們針對美軍採購的軍事的採購的方面就是說美國政府在8月時候通過通知韓國政府說決定要取消透過軍售管道採購武器的時候又可以採用非經常性的費用的豁免政策但是美國一旦取消這種不必分攤研發測試的這種"},{"start":3627.879,"end":3633.322,"text":"費用的優惠以後美國採購的整個裝備可能我們要付一筆費用大概是5%左右的費用也就是說其他報導是說日本澳洲還有其他北約成員國都有收到這樣的優惠被取消那請教部長一下我們對美國軍購的時候美國有沒有給我們像日本韓國澳洲這種豁免的優惠呢現在的情況是怎樣"},{"start":3652.282,"end":3668.424,"text":"報告委員軍購的軍品項目的那個研發費用一般而言它都會加在所有產製的項目裡面它是產製的一部分但是針對日韓跟澳洲的部分他們之前有"},{"start":3669.606,"end":3684.603,"text":"針對特定共同研發的品項優惠的那個部分那是另外算一般而言只要屬於通用的項目所有的國家都一體試用我們也沒有收到任何通知我們要被加收研發費這件事情"},{"start":3685.6,"end":3698.851,"text":"所以到現在還沒有沒有 目前我們都是按照正常的走而且我們在每一次的專案管理會議裡面還是會爭取各個項目當它產製數量增加研發攤費必須下修的時候會繼續跟美方做爭取好 謝謝"},{"start":3701.618,"end":3718.658,"text":"好然後接下來的問題就是我知道國軍最近有引進了HRV就是自律神經檢測透過機器輔助的這個方式幫助官兵提早發現一些問題目前HRV目前是旅警單位都有配一台是嗎是這樣嗎那海軍空軍也是這樣嗎"},{"start":3724.042,"end":3751.777,"text":"委員好 我是業管政動組的處長那有關於HRV的佩附的部分我們是在各心理衛生中心都有佩附一台那現在是陸軍有 海軍也有 空軍也都有嗎都有因為我現在就是為什麼會這樣問因為辦公室最近有收到一些新府官的陳情他們說HRV這種透過量化的方式會對及早發現的那個疾病的問題是非常有幫助的但是問題就是說幫一個"},{"start":3753.818,"end":3756.819,"text":"幫一位官兵測試一次他們靜止不動至少要5分鐘120個人測試的時候要花到10個小時如果編制大概4400個人的裝部旅這樣做完大約367個小時這裡面還要加上實際執行的人員一個一個替換的時間還不能保證可以完美的靜止5分鐘所以實際上花的時間可能更久"},{"start":3777.005,"end":3779.988,"text":"所以HRV這個東西既然那麼好用我覺得它也是可以有一些可以馬上及早發現一些問題所以我想身體的疾病是預防勝於治療啦尤其是國軍官兵是要站在第一線保護國家的人所以疾病的預防是非常重要的而且要提早發現"},{"start":3797.145,"end":3814.614,"text":"所以我想透過科學的方式提早發現這個是好的當然治療的成功的機率就會比較提高那是不是國防部有去了解各單位使用的狀況因為現在很多人要使用所以這樣爭奪看是不是增加人員還是是不是有增購協助官兵的進行檢測呢"},{"start":3816.728,"end":3844.284,"text":"謝謝委員的指導因為現在HRV包含我們今年已經開始在做這些器材的替換或是用更多人的方式來協助官兵使用HRV所以這部分都還在進行當中那麼我想委員的關心我們回去會納入研究看是要增加HRV的數量或者是採用更先進的一個器材"},{"start":3845.636,"end":3850.64,"text":"因為國軍官兵的健康還是很重要的謝謝好 薛委員謝謝接下來請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝請顧部長"},{"start":3881.076,"end":3909.105,"text":"沈委員部長好剛好昨天我剛好來之前就在看USCC的美國的報告它有提到就是說中國由演訓直接轉戰的可能性相較於以往更為提高它裡面的理由當然很多除了他們的新的這種兩棲的任務編組的改變之外其中也包含了他們現在對外的宣傳跟對內的宣傳的落差變得越來越大"},{"start":3910.025,"end":3928.559,"text":"再加上最近的國際情勢其實我認為這個當然我們對於風險的評估可能要再更為謹慎那當然今天的題目是在針對這一個新府相關的這一個報告但我覺得前面還是提醒一下就是最近的這一個美國這邊才剛出的一份報告"},{"start":3929.78,"end":3954.888,"text":"接下來就是關於新府這件事情因為我自己是在犯罪學研究所我的學生大部分是警察比較多警察他們常常面臨的一些問題就是因為他有中央跟地方他在地方政府的管轄範圍之內就有很多協辦的業務有時候協辦業務甚至到超過百項所以變成說警察要面對自己的業務的時候時間變得很少他要做很多的協辦"},{"start":3955.928,"end":3980.637,"text":"那照理說在軍中這件事情應該會稍微少一點因為第一個它最主要是一個跟中央有關的業務但我們在這個跟官兵呢在這個討論的這個過程當中呢發現還是會有一些相關的這些協辦的問題比如說呢就是呢這一個我們之前在這一個時空背景這是蠻久以前的事情因為那時候說要採檢嘛那我們說在採檢的時候呢其實我們採檢很多勤務部隊"},{"start":3981.477,"end":3997.477,"text":"那勤務部隊其實在裁剪的過程當中這個衛哨的人力就出現了缺口那有一些比較不機敏的地方這個衛哨還有可能請這一個別人來支援但是比較機敏的時候這個衛哨就變得在同一個營區不同的單位大家要互相支援"},{"start":3998.519,"end":4013.457,"text":"這個時候就會變成說他花在自己戰訓本務的時間就會因而這樣減少所以不知道部長現在針對這一種就是我們的勤務部隊就是不管是說我們的人力要怎麼提升這是一個很大的問題因為我們的邊線本來就有不足的問題"},{"start":4014.632,"end":4034.91,"text":"又或者說我們要怎麼樣去增加它的誘因讓有人願意來做這個勤務部隊這個目前來講整體國軍的規劃是什麼可以讓因為畢竟協辦的業務少支援的事務互相支援的這一個業務少的時候他可以更專注在自己的本務上面這個心理的壓力理論上會比較小一些"},{"start":4037.042,"end":4055.196,"text":"所以委員講的是指營區本身的借戶還是指支援營區這些衛哨等等之類的因為衛哨也是屬於營區借戶的一部分所以這個部分我想作計師他們有一些"},{"start":4057.899,"end":4071.037,"text":"委員好 我是座議事次長針對這個勤務的調整不管是後勤或是警務 警衛的勤務其實部長上任之後就要求我們是以檢法的思維來去考量官兵勤務上的一些負擔的調節跟調整"},{"start":4072.719,"end":4088.685,"text":"那因此針對這個衛照勤務的部分我們已經準備要去針對非經營單位比如說學校國防大學等我們目前已經責定8個單位要來去試行改裁以保全的方式來去擔任所謂的分攤警衛勤務的任務讓"},{"start":4089.865,"end":4115.867,"text":"相應的單位包含機關單位目前準備實驗是陸軍司令部等六個單位來去做檢討跟試行之後再來去擴大到其他相應的單位來減輕官兵的勤務負荷以上報告那非機敏的當然我覺得這個做法這個方向是頗為贊同那機敏的部分當然很難這樣做這是沒有辦法的事情那就是說短期之內就是說這個人力我們不可能就是因為邊線比我們之前在質詢的時候也討論過"},{"start":4117.188,"end":4131.725,"text":"那現在來講就是說不管是增加它多一些誘因比如說它這一個什麼擴大編列這些獎金的部分什麼等等之類的這個或許可以考慮那這個我們在因為這個跟機敏的單位比較有關係那我們"},{"start":4132.225,"end":4150.124,"text":"街道的陳情也比較多是跟基民單位有關那這個我們就是會後我們再來討論但我覺得這個方向可能我們要注意是因為就像剛剛提到的部長上任的時候其實有這個所謂的檢法思維我有把它整理在這邊就是這是2024年6月6號所以已經是超過一年前了"},{"start":4150.784,"end":4176.049,"text":"超過一年前的時候那時候我有把我們任何的這一些有可能可以去減低壓力的去減少行政作業的我都有列出來其實上面的不管是簡化業務還有禁止這種比較灰色的命令等等之類的這其實慢慢都在往這個方向邁進但是我們要確保這一些改革的事項都能夠做到這樣才可以去回應到我們今天的主題就是讓他們的壓力不要那麼的大"},{"start":4176.869,"end":4202.486,"text":"那接下來我想問另外一個就是這個其實是比較久以前的事情了那就是因為是有這一個有人拍抖音結果這一個因為他是在這個影區外所以他的手機可以使用結果他拍了這個抖音的影片上傳之後當然就是被處罰了那被處罰了之後整個部隊就取消了這一把的榮譽架簡單來講就是有點連坐的概念"},{"start":4203.266,"end":4227.062,"text":"我知道其實過往我在質詢的時候部長其實已經有承諾就是說連坐的這樣的一個做法不需要再出現當時 但是當時其實國防部也有回應到就是說這個榮譽架它本身就是一個獎勵的性質所以獎勵的性質拿回來它不算是一個懲罰有這樣的一個說法但我還是認為其實對我們 對一般的官兵來講"},{"start":4227.962,"end":4248.956,"text":"這個法律規定對他來講是一個文字遊戲你今天不是因為跟戰訓本務有關的一些事情如果說今天可以輕易的要處罰到其他部隊的人的時候對他來講他的實質上就是一個懲罰所以這個是一陣子以前的事情因為我們之前在看這個國防大學相關調查的時候"},{"start":4249.776,"end":4264.791,"text":"只要問到連坐問到一起被處罰這件事情即使現在已經開始減少了已經不再往這個方向去做懲戒了但是官兵還是會擔心就那個擔心的比例還是很高那針對這件事情目前觀光部有什麼作為"},{"start":4267.354,"end":4276.882,"text":"鮑委員我要藉著這個機會向您報告和澄清一下的確在去年妖洞酒旅有發生這個比較久以前有發生這樣的事情那也如委員說的事實上所謂的妖八榮譽我們國軍的休假還是從這個假期當日早上開始那妖八是獎勵性子那事實上國防部也明令已經取消所謂的連坐法這件事情"},{"start":4289.853,"end":4310.289,"text":"那在这个案子里面当中的确有发生数名士兵跟对这个下士斗殴的情形但是事实上我们经过了查证从司令部军团一直到旅籍的查证事实上并不是因为有实施连坐法这件事情而是官兵有那个证信我有看过的一些误解"},{"start":4310.729,"end":4327.972,"text":"那相關鬥烏的官兵也都依照這個規定也含送法辦以上報告對所以這個就是說當然那個當時這個陸軍那個澄清報告我有看過那但是就是說我們在問的當下大家都是就是說這個就是還是因為這個的原因等等之類這個沒有關係"},{"start":4329.113,"end":4351.849,"text":"但因為我覺得調查本身不管是他們的反應他們的滿意度這個不太能騙人對不對所以當他們有這樣擔心的時候就表示有可能可能不是在我們這一邊這一個指揮的長官但是下面的人有時候可能不管是揣摩上意又或者說他可能要達到特定的目的所以他可能還是做了相關的措施所以這一個可能還是要因為"},{"start":4352.489,"end":4375.614,"text":"有沒有灰色命令這件事情或者說有沒有連坐這件事情會影響到士氣這件事情我們就是我們要固定的就好像我們勞動部會有勞檢一樣就是我們要固定的要去查就是是否有這樣的情形發生讓下面的意見能夠傳達上來這樣才可以維持整個軍隊的士氣這個接下來我想問一下這個其實也是"},{"start":4376.587,"end":4402.256,"text":"也是一陣子以前的事情就是M1A2T這個我當時在這邊也是聽到很多人對那個T很有意見說這個台灣什麼之類那時候部長其實有都回應到但那時候我在這一個不知道他是反串還是說這一個假帳號還是說真的是這樣子他在這邊他有去抱怨說這一個司令部中正堂改成這個忠誠堂"},{"start":4403.876,"end":4425.947,"text":"我會覺得這件事情有點奇怪就是說我們軍隊效忠的應該是中華民國這個國家我們軍隊沒有在效忠蔣中正蔣中正怎麼會是軍隊在效忠的對象所以如果說我們今天在國家裡面我們把軍隊的忠誠把它跟國家連結在一起這照理說應該是好事一件才對"},{"start":4427.108,"end":4445.568,"text":"但是如果這個意見是真的這個會讓我有點擔心就是說等於是我們用意識形態去凌駕了這一個國家本身的這個認同國家本身的這個定位但我先不管因為它有可能是假的有可能就是反串的或什麼之類但我希望像這樣的一個聲音"},{"start":4446.149,"end":4474.939,"text":"如果今天在軍隊裡面有真的這樣的一個討論的時候是不是可以藉由不管是在舉光的時候等等時候其實要告訴我們的國軍我們認同的是中華民國這個國家我們要保護的是國家我們要保護的不是個人這件事情可能還是我覺得是當然我們講了很多剛剛講的不管是軍人的壓力我們希望他們有一些加急這些是最軍人的照顧但是對於國家的忠誠義務我認為這件事情還是非常的重要好 那這個"},{"start":4476.683,"end":4501.524,"text":"最後一點因為我看時間快不夠了就是這一個我們的駐外人員因為這一次我們的情報次長是穿著軍服去出席我們的華沙安全論壇我有詢問了幾位這種就是長期有來參加這個安全地位的就發現他們都說當時就是只要有參加類似這樣的會議雖然效果在一開始可能並不是那麼的顯著"},{"start":4502.205,"end":4530.206,"text":"但只要過一段時間之後那個時候能夠拉起來的線還有那時候能夠有的討論對我們的國防幫助非常的大所以我就因為我們的國際地位真的比較特殊就很多國家不承認我們對不對所以我們在參與這些會議的時候多少都會遇到一些阻礙所以目前我們現行的這一個就是駐外武官的一些不管是選拔的條件還有我們的人員夠不夠是不是能有更多像這樣子的一些交流"},{"start":4531.932,"end":4547.74,"text":"您是說選拔五官的條件還是指說更多的這種多邊或雙邊的軍事交流對 更多的交流當然是一個其實這個條件我之前其實有特別提過就是說其實我們可以有更多更多元的人才"},{"start":4548.4,"end":4562.881,"text":"然後比如說我們的性別等等之類的在這一個方面其實我們的女性是比較少的這個是我在之前的質詢問過那這一個我現在想問的就是說現在有沒有可能有更多這樣的交流我們更多的人才可以往這個方向前進"},{"start":4563.992,"end":4584.198,"text":"我想我們都會再鼓勵這樣子的一個多參與相關的這些交流的這些活動這個是一定的因為我現在是怕說我們的人是不太夠用的因為我們就像我剛剛前面講到的我們現在部隊裡面其實人就是不太夠用但其實我們現在對外這種需求是變得比以前更多了"},{"start":4584.858,"end":4605.141,"text":"所以我們現在因為以往我們在對外的時候很多都是外交部的人員什麼等等之類但我們現在我們穿著軍服來參加這個這個意義其實是非常的重大而且它所得交流的品質它所得到的成果是非常的好但我們國內的人就已經不太夠了如果送到國外的人又會吃緊那我們應該要如何是好最主要是想問這一點"},{"start":4605.922,"end":4633.45,"text":"所以我知道委員意思就是說我們因為要推展這樣子的交流我們需要培育更多的這些人才我想這個是我們一直不斷包括我們跟其他的美國或者的軍事現象進行這些交換或者是我們不斷的派駐相關的這些武官或者是我們的軍學人員到當地然後不斷的進修然後來取得對於這個當地國的"},{"start":4636.311,"end":4656.104,"text":"能夠以當地國的語言來進行這樣的一個交流不管是哪一國的我想這個都是我們要再多努力的方向如果人員能夠增加這樣應該是最好的謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝沈伯陽委員的質詢下面請馬文君委員"},{"start":4665.928,"end":4666.471,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":4675.207,"end":4696.239,"text":"部長早部長就我們今天的主題報告有指出官兵求助的樣態分析大概有六項第一個大概就是環境適應 身心健康 家庭因素 行為偏差經濟因素還有感情因素等等我想請教一下哪一個是最嚴重的我們經過統計"},{"start":4704.026,"end":4731.472,"text":"您來回答一下目前經過統計身心健康跟環境的適應這兩項是數量比較多的所謂身心健康是指其實最主要就是他在環境上面的適應所以我們這一次在分析交叉分析的時候特別是針對新兵跟少衛中衛他說顯示出來需要求助的是比較多的"},{"start":4732.162,"end":4753.892,"text":"他求助比较多的原因是什么因为我们看到这样的报告的结果我们会认为我们把所有的很多的结果从而又推到基层单位去了你像这样子新训的二兵中少卫这样的人数居多这样子的一个结果你们有什么看法"},{"start":4755.149,"end":4769.525,"text":"報告委員所以我們在新兵一進到部隊之後的第一個禮拜我們就會替他做身心狀況評量表那這個身心狀況評量表的目的就是在於篩檢出兩個重點一個是"},{"start":4770.966,"end":4782.496,"text":"我們要的不是憑良表因為你我現在說的是你已經去求助這些可能在心理師社工師或者我們我們像委外的或心腹師這樣子的一個心腹官這樣的一個對象我們現在要的你說環境適應跟身心健康這兩個是比較多的"},{"start":4792.304,"end":4799.035,"text":"剛剛因為我們聽到其他委員在講的時候你既不插卡也不留記錄是確保私密的可是你做出這樣的結論那他的結論可以做什麼樣的精進作為"},{"start":4803.499,"end":4809.983,"text":"跟委員報告我剛剛沒有弄錯方向您如果提的是心理衛生照護心理健康照護方案的話因為他的原則就是在針對一個人就是不去插卡就是說不用去求他自己去求助我知道所以我們說你做這樣因為官兵去求助的這樣樣態的分析你們認為這樣子的結果我們可以有什麼樣精進的作為因為你不是增加預算而已"},{"start":4832.573,"end":4852.398,"text":"報委員那個如果是心理照護方案他是主動對外求助的這個部分他如果不是高風險或者是有特殊狀況的我們是不會要求他來通報我們只有去針對這幾個部分他需要立即協助的我們沒有要求他們一定要通報我們現在說的是我們編出這樣的預算"},{"start":4854.358,"end":4860.4,"text":"不然你就給那個衛福部去編就好了在全民健保編就好了因為現在全民大概都有這樣的狀況今天如果有我們國防部編列這樣的預算對於我們的軍事官兵他的身心健康我們是非常重視我們也不希望有這樣子的狀況持續的發生所以我們才編這樣的預算那這樣的預算你可以有什麼樣精進改善的作為這才是我們編預算的一個主要的目的啊你剛剛提到的因為"},{"start":4883.689,"end":4899.624,"text":"如果是新兵新訓還有二兵中哨衛居多那有什麼樣的狀況因為你們還是把他推給基層啦這個有很多的面向比如說有沒有長官壓迫有沒有虐待有沒有暴力有沒有不當命令過度操課或不當勤務的安排這個體休假制度的僵化"},{"start":4905.189,"end":4907.511,"text":"這個牽涉到我們所有的領導統一還有我們所有整體的政策還有職場的環境因為有很多家長也會跟我們說原來我們的小孩很乖啊可是進到軍中以後好像學壞了賭博或者其他的習慣好像都來了那像這樣子的狀況"},{"start":4922.483,"end":4930.536,"text":"你有賭博的現象你可能造成他的財務會有重大的缺口因為我們也曾經接到陳情有的父母甚至幫小孩子去償還賭債甚至高達四五百萬到最後就跑路了"},{"start":4936.263,"end":4944.565,"text":"所以這樣的狀況你在他們心理之上我們今天如果說我們編這樣的預算你沒有辦法做一個你只能治標我們把預算編了然後大家就去求助求助以後到底結果怎麼樣可是你卻沒有反過來去做治標的一個根本改善部長這個您有什麼看法我想第一個我們並在做這個樣態分析絕對沒有把它就把它"},{"start":4963.973,"end":4970.723,"text":"規則到基層這樣的概念我們在做這個心理救助樣態的分析的時候只是在說明它的"},{"start":4972.318,"end":4997.009,"text":"因為你的題目有這個所以我們做一個太陽的分析然後另外進一步說哪一些單位的類型跟階級會比較多只是在做一個客觀的說明而已那至於剛剛有提到也許會因為它的環境適應是因為涉及領導統一那這就是成因所以我們要根據這一個現象然後我們再分析說它的原因是什麼所以如果是領導統一有問題的話"},{"start":4998.55,"end":5008.658,"text":"那我想我們相關的單位就要去注意到這個相關的領導統一的問題所以這個部分的分析主要就是在從我們的這個三級的這個房屋的架構出發去分析出來部長 因為我們看到的這樣子的一個三級的一個架構"},{"start":5017.344,"end":5022.768,"text":"去做去分析分析出來沒有用因為他的實質的像這樣的問題還是存在我們要說的是當你在一直增加預算的同時因為我們在第一年因為現在第三年了嘛第一年在從事情"},{"start":5033.635,"end":5045.985,"text":"的60萬然後我們在今年也增加明年又要增加可是我們希望可以好好照顧官士兵的這些身心健康可是這些都是治標我們要的是治本所以今天如果說你把他的樣態產生的原因比較大的因素他應該要去做一個根本的改善就是我們"},{"start":5055.273,"end":5072.444,"text":"制度面我剛剛提到的很多可能發生的原因可能讓他環境的適應是有問題的包括已經做了十幾年的這樣子本來都是默默在承受然後只要上起下打的命令他們都會盡力去執行的"},{"start":5074.725,"end":5090.89,"text":"現在我們也接到很多的陳情他們都待不住了所以就這個部分我們希望除了在增加這種心理諮商的預算以外要根本的去做治本的解決這個部分我們希望現在提供比較詳細的這樣的一個書面資料怎麼樣去做改善像這樣的制度面如果我們還沒有辦法找出問題我想這個花再多錢都沒有用這個部長可不可以認同"},{"start":5104.76,"end":5129.037,"text":"因為我們是在既有的這個三級的這個房屋機制之外剛剛委員問的應該是我們另外在今年做的心理健康照護方案是不是沒有 照護方案那些都沒有關係我們現在說有這麼多軍事官兵他們不斷的有這樣的需求或者需求越來越高我們希望找出一個根本的解決方案他到底是因為什麼樣的因素"},{"start":5129.617,"end":5135.281,"text":"你如果是感情因素個人的什麼其他的家庭因素那個我們比較沒有辦法那是個別的一個因素可是如果他是整個在軍中的環境他讓他產生這樣子的心理壓力然後需要求助心理諮商我想這個我們要從制度面去解決這個部分部長同不同意所以我們才會有既有的我們初期發掘預防就是在於發掘書"},{"start":5157.856,"end":5177.393,"text":"具有心理困擾的人那他可能是因为各种不讲我们不是讨论那你讲的心理健康照顾我们从事情以来我们发现这个成效也不错所以这个是双轨来做那您现在讲的是说要有一个解决的方案对是不是那这个解决的方案就是"},{"start":5178.234,"end":5193.51,"text":"我們要分析他的這個原因然後透過他這個成因然後去加以去理解那這個部分的話剛剛有講到了民間的這一個部分的我們跟民間的這些合作機構會進一步再來讓他理解軍中的這一個訓練軍中的環境"},{"start":5195.993,"end":5220.498,"text":"是如何所以這個民間的活動機構就已經能夠適度的來協助這些那如果是屬於高風險的具有一個高風險那我轉接到地區新衛中心這個是我們現在做的一個方向那既有的初級的發掘預防我們也要宣導讓各這個所有的領導幹部都能夠去做好他的第一線工作那二級的部分部長時間的關係現在您沒有聽清楚我的問題"},{"start":5224.699,"end":5234.801,"text":"我剛剛提到的如果這樣子的人數在增加你的預算不斷增加表示需求量也在增加當中因為其實我們還有很多衛福部也有編這樣的預算我就說你牽涉到領導統一或者職場環境還有如果說我們在裡面有賭博而且甚至是群體性的這個都是根本的治本之道應該要找出方法來解決因為他缺錢"},{"start":5252.225,"end":5275.484,"text":"他被很多黑道或者像可能在最在的時候很多就自殺了所以就這些方面這些面向是我們軍中應該要去做治本解決的這個是我們現在今天提出來特別要求的這個部分我們希望可以提供更詳細的一個資料我們的軍中的環境的管教的環境或者是"},{"start":5279.327,"end":5288.813,"text":"不要製造一些不良的環境給軍中的這些跑者是這個意思因為你的樣態裡面就有環境適應的問題那這個部分環境造成的是我們軍中的一個問題所以這個部分請再做一些比較更詳細更精進的資料因為當你在增加預算的同時你也必須要有解決的方案這個部分我們希望可以後續提供那另外"},{"start":5307.003,"end":5316.092,"text":"環境適應的部分我們當然要去找出他的環境適應的問題然後另外我要請教一下鳳展案現在目前的進度如何電站夾艙現在目前怎麼樣"},{"start":5321.203,"end":5338.229,"text":"副委員 奉展案的夾艙這個部分是因為是要配合我們新式戰機的內置夾艙的一個研發階段他已經執行很久了嘛因為你原來而且你原來的預算因為我們那時候所以到底有沒有確定"},{"start":5339.128,"end":5359.805,"text":"這是確定的 是他不是後來增加鳳展案在電站夾倉的時候這個已經執行很多年了而且他從42億變成12億他把數量都減少了所以後續現在進行的階段今天時間關係提供資料好不好是在會後提供資料另外我要請教部長還有中科院"},{"start":5360.886,"end":5365.828,"text":"如果有廠商不斷的延遲交貨甚至從105年到114年幾乎每年在他應該進度落後的情況之下交貨都延遲而且還發生產品不合格被退貨中科院也把它列為C級廠商C級廠商大概就是不得報價也不得簽約嘛 對不對"},{"start":5384.156,"end":5404.433,"text":"所以如果他還能夠順利的得到標案而且還類似是指定的先從小批量到未來的大量那我們現在為什麼會有這樣的做法委員問的是中科院本身還在問國防部中科院應該知道是什麼案子吧"},{"start":5406.307,"end":5416.714,"text":"如果是被我們列為那個C級的廠商他就不可能參與不可能嘛確定那如果說他不斷的延遲交貨他可以再得標嗎"},{"start":5418.103,"end":5438.587,"text":"尤其是中藥都不行確定嘛好那相關的那個案例我們會後再討論如果真的有發生這樣的狀況要立即處理不管是中科院或者國防部而且甚至還有降規的情形就更不可原諒他不斷的延遲交貨而且甚至還是積極廠商而且我們還降規去符合這樣的需求這個就不可原諒再次提醒"},{"start":5445.248,"end":5449.61,"text":"那再一次利用一點點時間要請教部長而且我們也希望它不可以再發生因為我們接到陳情就是我們有一些中部的這些年輕人他們這一次年齡大概都21到28歲他們去接受教招的時候我們在過程當中有要求他們要填寫問答這個部分是常態嗎"},{"start":5476.857,"end":5479.424,"text":"填寫問卷這是常態嗎教召填寫問卷委員講的是什麼樣子的問卷"},{"start":5488.936,"end":5493.639,"text":"我唸幾個給部長聽 他們就是說進去的時候請他們掃QR code雖然說這是匿名作打 可是大家一開始可能也是配合也開心的作打 可是進到作打的題目裡面的時候他覺得是非常離譜 而且浪費納稅人的錢"},{"start":5508.807,"end":5512.049,"text":"第一個他們問到說政府施政滿意度是怎麼樣施政團隊大家感覺到滿意嗎還有美國以色列的國防GDP預算跟台灣來比較你覺得台灣國防預算GDP佔3.12是合理的嗎如果跟美國以色列比較這個預算會不會太少題目還有說"},{"start":5534.278,"end":5552.311,"text":"你覺得台灣這樣的國防預算跟對岸的國防預算比較差距是好幾倍你覺得我們應該要再增加嗎這樣預算是對等的嗎類似這樣的題目非常多還有題目說台灣自治的潛水艇叫什麼名字他卻沒有問說"},{"start":5553.692,"end":5554.832,"text":"潛艦花了多少錢這是他們在陳情的內容裡面可能提到的今天他們覺得這樣的提問是在製造戰爭的恐慌然後也沒有中立感因為其實"},{"start":5569.878,"end":5572.601,"text":"我們所有的不管是後備軍人不管是現役軍人其實大家都對國家忠誠可是當你的問卷牽涉到這樣子的一個政黨或政治的這樣的一個敏感的問題這是適當嗎"},{"start":5587.072,"end":5602.109,"text":"委員好我是選動署署長謝謝委員的指導但是據我所知我們在叫招的過程不會找QR code做這些問題那如果有呢那請等一下委員你把相關的資料提供給我我們會徹底的來查證這個事實"},{"start":5603.63,"end":5618.742,"text":"因為我們的教召課程14天裡面沒有做這個問卷只有請教召員他自己去評估這一次教召的過程當中的課程對他來講是有精進的地方來做這個提升後備戰力來做的作為"},{"start":5621.724,"end":5642.226,"text":"所以剛好我問說是不是常態那如果不是常態不是可能固定的他可能是有特殊的這樣的需求可是有特殊的需求針對這樣的對象尤其在叫招的過程當中你提出這樣的問卷的內容都非常不恰當所以這個部分請了解以後再做一些相關的一個回覆"},{"start":5644.528,"end":5670.604,"text":"報告委員我這裡必須要很慎重的跟委員報告國軍永遠會保持行政中立國軍永遠是保護中華民國2300萬百姓安全福祉我們希望是這樣當你在過程當中有瑕疵的時候就要是去改善我們現在提出來就是瑕疵我們相信軍人我們也相信我們中華民國的國軍可是我們更不希望政策去做錯誤的引導謝謝"},{"start":5673.968,"end":5699.303,"text":"謝謝馬文君委員下面請林柱英委員發言謝謝主席主席有請顧部長有請顧部長那麼其他如果列席的官員需要補充就請自行上台林委員"},{"start":5703.49,"end":5727.539,"text":"部長一個最新的訊息我想今天大概全民都已經知道就是我手上這一本當危機來臨時台灣全民安全指引這一本會開始做發放那麼我想這幾天我們也看到了陸續針對這一本的發放跟預算的使用那麼在野黨有提出質疑首先我先問部長這一本的內容"},{"start":5728.379,"end":5741.418,"text":"跟這一本的製作台灣是首例嗎其他國家有沒有這樣子類似的全民安全主義當然不是因為在整個這個研討的過程中其實花了相當多的時間我們陸續參考很多國家"},{"start":5744.242,"end":5765.168,"text":"特別是很多歐洲的國家包括像瑞典、芬蘭、我想還有愛沙尼亞捷克等等的這些都有在做所以我們過去的版跟現在這一版差很多差非常多主要就是在於參照這些國家"},{"start":5766.708,"end":5781.723,"text":"來提供這個全民在面對這些重大災難或者是緊急狀況的時候一個安全指引我想這個是花了很多時間討論好 我想提出質疑的委員可能他們手上還沒拿過或者是只看了封面沒有看了內容"},{"start":5783.765,"end":5802.261,"text":"我拿到之後我特別翻閱了實質的內容他們都是質疑說是不是台灣要戰爭了但事實上這裡頭有聽到防空警報沒有錯但是也有海嘯警報然後也有資安的守護還有告訴你防災相關的知識所以我認為這一本事實上就如同封面所講的"},{"start":5802.921,"end":5829.093,"text":"他是一個全民安全的指引遇到各種挑戰包括這第一頁其實開宗明義就寫了就是這是一個充滿挑戰的時代所以我們在面對天災 疾病極端氣候當然還有中國的侵略這個全本就是在講這些沒有錯對吧是但是呢我們看到的是在在野黨委員質疑的同時今日海峽部長應該知道這是一個什麼媒體吧今日海峽"},{"start":5832.361,"end":5853.458,"text":"是中國的官媒 就馬上來奚落這一本然後甚至於說 這個要拿來墊泡麵坦白講啦 說實話 這一本喔 印得太小了如果要墊泡麵還真的不夠 不夠墊這個大碗的滿漢大餐喔 會壓不住甚至於呢 去講說 為什麼要印紙本其實這裡面就有提到啊 停電能上網嗎"},{"start":5854.759,"end":5872.079,"text":"所以部長我認為像這樣子的使用跟說法跟說明事實上是必要讓全民都看到本席是非常支持的因為台灣現在面臨很多的挑戰不只是中共的軍事威脅還有的就是包括極端氣候所產生的天災地變"},{"start":5875.342,"end":5890.304,"text":"所以在這個部分包括預算的使用我也想知道現在我們如何運用這一筆預算除了因應之外重要的是要想辦法到加戶那麼預算的使用已經被質疑了說是動用第二預備金那麼你要不要做一個解釋"},{"start":5891.925,"end":5910.917,"text":"我想國防部昨天記者會也好或者新聞稿也好大概都有一個說明也就是說我們認為這樣子的一個強化全民的安全意識那比較於其他各國已經有在做的都是有用普發資本的方式即使是現在這樣子的一個數位時代"},{"start":5911.497,"end":5928.279,"text":"所以為了降低這樣的一個數位落差同時在危急的時刻包括這一個災害來臨的時候那如何要進行防災跟避難這個的時候如果有一個普化的一個資本然後讓這些不論是能夠在數位的"},{"start":5929.02,"end":5945.305,"text":"上面有比較高度優勢或者是比較這個偏鄉的這些老人或者是其他的一些不具有這樣的數位接觸的能力的人都能夠知道這樣子的一個內容對於我們整個"},{"start":5946.205,"end":5974.015,"text":"全民安全意識的強化是非常有幫助的所以才會決定用普發資本的方式那普發資本之後的決定之後那因為這個年度預算的這個計畫有不足因為本來是印小量的那現在要印成這個普發的方式那所以我們就依照這個預算法的相關規定70條的相關規定來申請這個行政院動資的第二預備金那行政院也同意"},{"start":5974.482,"end":6003.142,"text":"好 那麼我想問的就是在還沒有要普發喔 只是這個訊息就出來了包括中國的官媒開始虛襲落 數落那麼這是不是一個中國的認知作戰我想我們應該就國防部理事長我們要從事反認知作戰那最好的方式就是我們要盡量把我們所有認為我們應該讓全民知道的事情讓全民知道"},{"start":6003.642,"end":6022.928,"text":"所以我想國際的民主國家都也會用這個普發的方式來充分的讓國民來了解要具有這個安全的意識所以我們是跟國際接軌那同時間也因為這樣子我想中國可能不是很高興但是我們應該做我們應該做的事情"},{"start":6024.748,"end":6041.989,"text":"好 本席是非常同意啦因為這一本小小的其實只有30頁啦那麼平常這個如果不願意讀書的委員的話是可以看一下對自己的安全是有一些保障的因為我們沒有一個人是局外人那另外我只有一個小小的建議啦就是這一本上面叫做"},{"start":6042.81,"end":6062.99,"text":"台灣全民安全指引喔但是我去網站下載的時候上面是寫全民國防手冊專區啦我是建議要名實相符啦然後就是因為喔全民國防所以就會被人家做文章以為只有國防所以我建議啦就是下載的專區名字要改一下不然會找不到可以吧"},{"start":6064.171,"end":6087.747,"text":"因為確實過去叫全民國防守則但是這一本上面寫的是台灣全民安全指引有非常充分的討論用安全指引的方式我回去我請他們檢討一下是不是修正一下在這個專區裡面我們開設一個一點進去就可以看得到的"},{"start":6089.408,"end":6110.595,"text":"這個就是這樣有的時候想要做文章的人就會拿來做文章那這個我只是一個小提醒當然它是一個全民國防手冊專區但是這個部分是不是可以標註更明確一點免得就是雞蛋裡挑骨頭就當作我也是雞蛋裡挑骨頭的提醒好嗎好另外我要"},{"start":6112.642,"end":6130.757,"text":"好 那我另外要往下來質詢就是我們回到今天的題目其實有關於今天我們安排的這個國軍健康安全我在10月的時候就曾經質詢過部長了當時是針對預算來做質詢那麼今天再度排案的時候我有去理解了更多的資料我們知道總預算的原額是19萬1474人"},{"start":6133.579,"end":6159.777,"text":"使用率其實只有1.5%1.5%國防部對於這樣的人數喔其實就是他使用的次數只有2840人那麼在這個部分到底國防部覺得滿意這個數字嗎那麼當然這個數字我們上次有講過了他所傳達的有可能就是國防現在的心理的部分大家都很健康不需要使用但是會不會有另外一個狀況是我同時也調出了資料就是自主預約高達97%那麼這個是不是也"},{"start":6164.36,"end":6190.195,"text":"顯示出官兵們對於部隊來講他其實內部的心腹機制他們恐怕是比較不信任的那麼在這個整體來說看到了這些數字之後更重要的是還有就是二兵居多然後呢少衛中衛其次那麼根據這樣的報告的結果包括我們所知所了解的就是說在這樣的使用上面喔那麼在推廣跟推展度上面是不是還是有待加強的部分"},{"start":6191.329,"end":6217.838,"text":"跟委員報告我首先說明一下我們這邊的樣態的分析事實上就二兵跟少數位居多的這個是用原來的三級的防止機制去得出來的分析那在這個心理健康這個照護方案我們還是強調隱私所以我們在這個地方除了他具有高風險的這個因子之外也需要做一個轉介沿著上我們就維持他的隱私那這樣的話使用的這個"},{"start":6219.099,"end":6231.517,"text":"比例 當他逐漸對這個方案信賴之後他使用的比例才會越來越高那他去求助於這些跟我們合作的機構他如果就能夠得到緩解我覺得這個本身就是有他的效益"},{"start":6231.977,"end":6243.067,"text":"好所以呢不論說現在的就是整體的改善的方向是如何本席的建議就是如果就如部長所說的是在宣傳跟使用度上不夠的話那麼建立這個所謂的信任機制讓他們敢使用這個也是非常重要的"},{"start":6249.352,"end":6266.872,"text":"那麼另外一個就是本席特別對比了就是剛剛報告也特別提到了這是從衛福部的這個想法當中來的但是這個就是不患寡患不均在北部地區就有171所合作的機構但是中部 南部 東部加起來"},{"start":6267.452,"end":6287.833,"text":"其實才157所不及北部的171所那麼我特別調了衛福部合作的機構的比例可以來看一下就是大概衛福部這邊只有南部東部合作的機構那我們會看到就是整體來說衛福部他的比例是平均的然後接近的那麼在這個部分"},{"start":6289.555,"end":6309.847,"text":"是不是有它什麼樣資源配置的理由還是說有什麼樣合作機構可能的增加因為坦白說這樣的一個配置是不是也會讓外界感受到那是不是北部的兵力比較多但是通常我們兵力配置也是一個機密嘛那在這個部分有沒有要增加或加強讓比例更均衡的部分"},{"start":6310.687,"end":6324.424,"text":"謝謝委員關心因為今年是2月13號開始執行所以我們今年第一年開始做那麼今年合作了328家我們在明年我們會持續的去拓展它的來源讓各個地區能夠盡量達到平衡那麼目前除了"},{"start":6330.01,"end":6342.367,"text":"各縣市的分布情形當然是除了馬祖現在沒有之外那其他各縣市其實都有那麼另外使用的部分也都是由比較大的都會去使用的機率也比較高那麼明年我們會持續來努力謝謝委員"},{"start":6344.79,"end":6367.843,"text":"好 本席就是希望在這個資源分布上面能夠更加平均因為我們既然關心這個題目除了關心官兵的使用率使用上是否安全使用之後是否有效果之外我認為在尋求資源的時候也能夠分布得更平均然後讓他們有機會更容易來取得這樣的心理上面的諮商是 我們來努力好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":6373.359,"end":6376.8,"text":"接下來請柯智恩委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們是不是請部長是柯委員好"},{"start":6396.915,"end":6402.641,"text":"委員部長好我想我在10月8號的時候曾經就有關於軍中身心調適假的問題就交於部長特別我提出來了雖然我們每年有差不多一定的三天的身心調適假但是遇到汗光演習或是特別緊急狀況的時候你們認為說"},{"start":6415.874,"end":6443.94,"text":"到底是不是可以準價那部長說要帶回去研議那目前已經超過一個多月了研議的結果到底是如何我看過相關的規定他是不能夠影響戰備的狀況所以演習適同作戰我想在這個地方應該是不適宜讓他可以所以說當初所提到的全責主管不得拒絕是指一般的狀況如果遇到緊急狀況還是沒有辦法就對了因為我看到那個條文他在這個前沿的那個地方就是要在不影響這個"},{"start":6444.98,"end":6464.696,"text":"好 部長我只是希望有個非常明確的一個做法不要到時候準薄完全是給基層的這個軍官來做決定這會造成一個部分如果是完全不行就把指令清楚一點這樣可以嗎是 因為在那個條文它底下有很多是啦 那部長你說你說要給我研議你也要告訴我一下我到目前為止"},{"start":6465.296,"end":6484.994,"text":"好吧 你也要告诉我一个结果我是说这个条件要非常的明确不要到时候准博是由忠诚的这个军官来做这样的一个处置这样对他们来说是不公平的好 那我们今天特别提到的心理的健康我应该是说身为一个26年来都从事心理智商训练的一个老师而言我必须要去说"},{"start":6485.915,"end":6511.085,"text":"軍中的心理健康不是沒有制度而是你看軍中是一個非常豐富的體系不管是在文化不管在於很多的資源不管在紀律壓力之下面其實它是不同於一般的我隨便舉個例子來說在場非常多中高層所有的將官你們可能沒有這個問題心裡有苦也可以往內賣吞因為認為這是你們要承受的壓力包括你們自己的孩子如果告訴你還要做心理諮商你們自己自問你們怎麼想可以接受嗎"},{"start":6513.886,"end":6540.514,"text":"所以這就是軍中文化跟我們很大的不一樣部長你同意這一點吧因為我們接受過非常多你們將領的孩子心裡有很多就覺得他自己受到父親非常嚴格的部分認為他必須要有一個比別人更有的這個韌性所以有很多的個案都來自於各位的子弟好不好所以我只是要圖寫因為我沒有一個將軍的父親所以可能要問一下這些將軍大家可以思考一下"},{"start":6542.015,"end":6563.128,"text":"這就是思考一下這是我說的軍中的一個文化還有一些壓力的一個承受親子的一些的問題其實呈現非常多的面向那你如果來看一下這個部分裡面我說實在我看到這份資料因為來自審計部對於這個軍中的這些有關心腹人力是有一些的想法的也有一些的提出了一些的批評那我真的剛開始對於你們所提出來的自殺 自殘 自傷"},{"start":6568.091,"end":6571.412,"text":"我這三個部分是完全不一樣的可不可以說明一下這到底是自殺還是自殘我把它改成自殺因為我認為這個比數比較是合理如果是自殘的話應該比這個比數更高很多結果我們政府單位所給我的資料裡面一下給我自殺 一下給我自殘 一下給我自殺這三個是不一樣的部長你了解嗎我需要一個很正確的比數這應該是自殺吧"},{"start":6592.686,"end":6611.643,"text":"就我的這邊給我的一些內部的資料我們都會以自殺這個應該是吧對 但是你們報給審計部的部分常常用自殘或是自傷所以我覺得這個必須要部分因為你自殘的比例的話一定比高於他都十倍以上啦因為自殘沒有是不是"},{"start":6613.485,"end":6618.61,"text":"鮑威我們都是以自殺來自殺才是正確因為這個比數我還是強調在軍中的自傷跟自殘的比數一定高於這個好幾倍以上因為這個部分裡面我們現在一定清楚我們就說如果說用自殺的比例來去看說實在的114年是統治到6月看來是有降低"},{"start":6633.967,"end":6643.937,"text":"去年高達37件的自殺應該是最高的一個比率目前是有進步這點要給國防部還是要一點肯定這沒有問題但是我還是要提出來因為我們的自殺已經重回國人的十大死因之一我們來看一下你們的比數我還是覺得這個人力上面我剛剛特別提到了為什麼很多人說不是製鬥的問題而是你們軍中的文化我們往下下面一頁來去看"},{"start":6658.53,"end":6674.005,"text":"目前來說呢你們倒是具有諮商證照的大概是69人那你以這個比例來看我們比較rough來看的話大概是2300人這個比數是過高的我說以專業證照來去看這個比數是高的但是你如果加上其他的話你們下面還有一個沒有錯吧這個次數對吧專業的"},{"start":6679.554,"end":6698.238,"text":"包委員你這個數字應該是近三年考上證照的我們現在全軍具有證照的是202位那麼占所有新府人員的比例大概是將近五成不到五成是不到五成的理由因為我知道你們有另外一個有關輔導輔導的人力的這個部分輔導人力裡面來說的話"},{"start":6700.919,"end":6705.141,"text":"其實我還是有意見的你知道為什麼嗎因為輔導人裡面你們當初來看的話他們的訓練來說的話很多時候呢你們心理專業的訓練只有五個星期五個星期還有五週的訓練你這樣去處理你們心中目前目前越來越多年紀輕的這個新兵他們的身體調適他們很多憂鬱他們包括他們很多自己的這個心理上的問題這些完全不夠的你還是需要專業的證照你只有五成對不起喔這個基本上以專業來看這個是遠遠不如的"},{"start":6730.535,"end":6735.877,"text":"因為你專業證照你要1600考只要有碩士學位跟你一般只接受五個禮拜的這樣的一個訓練這個是沒有辦法而且特別我們提到的你往往在自殺當中呢一下子就降到馬上就直接到了一個危險的階段你們沒有在第一時間當中去可以完全把它界定出來檢測出來目前來說沒有啊這就是你們所看到的"},{"start":6754.265,"end":6772.411,"text":"幾乎在審計部裡面指出在108到112年這個158個自殺當中超過80%是沒有經過初級發掘預防就直接進入到危機點的那就在你第一線當中你沒有辦法立即感受出它的一個危機性這個是一個非常危險的"},{"start":6773.211,"end":6789.871,"text":"你們怎麼樣來解決這個問題所以跟委員報告我想我們的這個新府能力的編制跟我們的縣議員比現在還是有一個落差是我們現在還是要充實我們的新府能力那新府能力裡面也有分二級介入輔導跟三級專業處一那三級專業處一的新府的"},{"start":6790.191,"end":6805.233,"text":"专业政党能力也应该要再加强这绝对会是的而且你们现在比较好跟相对于过去来说所以我们现在在另外推出一个心理健康照顾方案就是借助于民间的治愈我知道民间他不愿意过来军中担任但是我们开放这些官兵"},{"start":6805.894,"end":6818.44,"text":"只能夠在保護隱私的情況之下他無需轉介他自動去跟民間支援部長我了解因為很多學生就在民間單位我剛剛說為什麼很多降臨的孩子就是因為他們都到前面去所以才會有這些我們知道的個案但是因為隱私的關係這才是正確因為我們諮商最重視的就是倫理"},{"start":6825.783,"end":6850.316,"text":"然後倫理跟隱私如果都完全在你們軍中系統來的話的話萬一他發生問題而且他的心理的創傷是來自於直屬的長官你這件事情如果你的系統在你們軍中他敢不敢 他要不要呈報這就是牽涉到倫理的問題你放給外面來的東西這才是一個正確的一個做法對 所以我們才推出這個我們現在才推出這個心理健康照護檔案是 然後最後我還是要問如果說真的是有一些心理上面的問題會不會影響他的升遷還有這些記錄的話會不會影響他的升遷"},{"start":6855.786,"end":6869.06,"text":"我想我們都會有一個輔導那只要他沒有具有這樣子的一個問題的情況之下我想應該是如果他有就診記錄曾經有過重度憂鬱等等一些心理調適的問題會不會影響他的生前這個軍醫局來做一個因為"},{"start":6875.526,"end":6899.053,"text":"報告委員 如果我們的軍官或者是志願役士兵如果有體位上符合按照我們國軍體位氣溫標準心理問題 會不會影響身軀如果他體位的確符合精神疾病是會被我們註記的所以會不會影響身軀應該是會所以有影響身軀但是如果他只是一般的這些心理的諮詢應該是不會"},{"start":6901.034,"end":6926.007,"text":"心理的諮詢就看你們要怎麼樣去認定還有我還是要最後還要提醒跟委員解釋一下就是說所有人經過醫院的診療只要能夠健康的出院對生鮮是沒有影響的對 生鮮沒有影響所以不會影響生鮮就對了是然後非常重要的一點在這個過程當中我還是強調不管是人力的一個層面還是有關於"},{"start":6927.148,"end":6949.923,"text":"很多的問題是來自自己軍中直屬的長官的這個這個層面這個問題如果沒有辦法整個這個比較封閉的這個東西沒有辦法的話人力的問題心理的問題其實是很難獲得疏解我是提醒部長真的目前的孩子跟我們過去是不一樣的他們每個承受的任性跟壓力都跟我們過去是不一樣的所以呢需要有更多的"},{"start":6950.823,"end":6968.512,"text":"資源更多的人力才有辦法兵好我們才有整個國家的部隊才會好這是必須要投放更多我們現在目前的這個經費跟我們的整個預算比起來其實還是遠遠不如希望部長在未來對於這個心理健康的層面裡面能夠多放很多的心思在裡面這樣才是很好的這個環境的適應的問題涉及到領導團等等然後基層部隊我想"},{"start":6973.695,"end":6978.019,"text":"我們要加強二級的介入輔導跟三級的專業處理那另外就是 心理健康照護判案也讓他能夠勇於去進行求助這樣對 還有對於你們自己本身的親子關係的求助的部分裡面勇敢說出來好不好 男人有淚也讓他流出來這是對心理來說的話也是不要擺著一個這樣子 大家都是陽光的燦爛微笑背後裡面有多少的心理的側面"},{"start":6997.655,"end":7007.258,"text":"希望從你們做起你們的孩子才有辦法可以真的是覺得自己可以是健康的部分這是語重心長因為有太多的個案在我們身上好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝我們目前收到臨時提案共兩案待會兒王定宇委員質詢結束以後進行處理處理完畢休息五分鐘現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":7034.493,"end":7036.215,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請顧立雄顧部長請部長"},{"start":7044.933,"end":7065.416,"text":"是 雪兒部長好 這個書最近很紅那我想先表態就是說我認為去在這個無論是什麼時候提供台灣全民的安全指引無論是網路版本或是紙本我個人都沒有意見是支持的因為很多時候我們的天災也不只有一種"},{"start":7066.397,"end":7090.984,"text":"那但是我想要先問一下一個問題因為我們發現這個紙本上面有兩種不同的版本那一種是有賴清德總統簽名的一種是沒有賴清德總統簽名的我想問一下各自是印了或者是打算印幾本我先問這個好了因為第一個版本是沒有賴總統簽名的那這個印了多少本呢"},{"start":7093.05,"end":7109.034,"text":"報委員好我是全眾署署長有關這個第一版的是9月16號國防部記者會公佈了之後發的那是小批量印的只印了5000本5000本所以總共是多少金額大概12萬左右12萬那請問這12萬本接下來如何處理"},{"start":7112.855,"end":7134.662,"text":"不是12萬本是金額12萬然後5000本這5000本基本上有自己發一發就就沒了沒有沒有第一個他有配合了921地震這個災防日的防災宣導的時候配合來實施發放然後也會有在門市部分部門來做發放不要浪費就好了"},{"start":7136.563,"end":7156.619,"text":"再來下載量的部分我們可以看到第一個版本的在網路上的下載量是16615次但是有賴總統簽名的版本目前只有1100次可能是因為發布時間的不同但我覺得既然你們已經印了第二個版本那是不是第一個版本可以在網路上面更新的時候你就把它拿掉"},{"start":7157.279,"end":7180.331,"text":"不然呢我看到網路上很多人也在嘲笑啊有賴清德總統版本就一千一百個人要下載但是呢這個沒有的有一萬六千多個人要下載其實這個沒有必要嘛那是不是你們有更新的部分呢那舊的版本你就可以把它拿下來我不懂為什麼同樣的類似的內容就是差一個簽名在網路上面要放這麼多次依依在哪裡"},{"start":7181.091,"end":7201.771,"text":"報委員我想我跟委員做一個解釋這也要解釋喔第一個版本的時候那個版本裡面天然災害裡面沒有驗射狐一流我沒有你沒有聽懂等一下你沒有聽懂我的意思就是你第二個版本一定做了一定的版本我們有更新後的新的版本"},{"start":7202.873,"end":7232.613,"text":"我部長你有聽懂我意思嗎他沒有聽懂我意思沒有他剛剛已經講了就是我們只留更新後的版本以後就好了對啊但現在不是啊我剛才上網看了啊對所以我剛剛就說你們回去是不是統合成一個版本就好了既然都更新了那為什麼舊的版本還要放在上面這個沒有意義的事情嘛對不對好那接下來我要問喔這個因為部長手上沒有所以我是不是主席可以給我時間那個暫停我把我手上這一本提供給部長好不好因為我怕還是您手上是有的"},{"start":7232.953,"end":7236.495,"text":"那是不是可以暫停我時間我把這本拿給部長那民眾一般來說呢最在乎的事情是呢聽到防空警報或者是我們需要去避難的時候那我們能夠去避難的避難點在哪裡我想請問一下如果我今天我不清楚但我有這本手冊的話"},{"start":7260.669,"end":7288.887,"text":"以我們現在所在的立法院我們要如何透過這一本然後呢現在要花多少的時間能夠找到相關的避難點請問我們現在部長可不可以示範給我們看一下跟委員報告就這裡面手冊就有提到你在平時的時候哪裡啦哪一頁啊然後怎麼做第七頁第七頁ok好第七頁然後呢就在平時的時候就下載你有沒有你有沒有你有沒有這個download過這個app"},{"start":7291.079,"end":7303.557,"text":"我想有那這個APP金正福的APP跟消防防災的一點通的APP你有沒有登入過自己本身嘗試過這個APP上面的一些問題"},{"start":7305.885,"end":7328.495,"text":"就是說不然您懂我意思嗎你現在寫了一個APP在上面那我呢在緊急的時候呢我下載了這個APP比如說我看到第七頁之後我下載這個APP我問您一個問題警政服務的APP需不需要登入跟註冊個人資訊他下面有個QR code對啊你要不要你用手機的話不要掃一下看看會發生什麼事情"},{"start":7331.169,"end":7339.574,"text":"來我們看我已經掃給你看了如果你使用的是警政服務的話你要先用使用者認證電話號碼輸入驗證號碼之後開通帳號然後你才能進到這個警政服務系統"},{"start":7345.137,"end":7363.334,"text":"所以如果你要想喔你今天這本叫做台灣全民安全指引它是接到防空警報之後我們要立刻尋找我們合適的避難所在這個時候你提供給他的這個APP進去以後要先下載下載以後要打開打開之後要使用者認證然後呢要確認之後開通帳號"},{"start":7366.497,"end":7376.485,"text":"你才能夠進到APP裡面去其實一個相當繁複的過程好 您剛還有講到另外一個在21頁這個是平時要先下載嗎"},{"start":7377.369,"end":7405.268,"text":"你覺得有多少人平時有下載來我問一下警政服務APP目前有多少人下載下載數量目前是多少所以我們應該要宣導啊對嘛沒有我問你現在目前下載人數是多少嘛下載人數我手上沒有資料是啊所以你也不知道啊所以好你說要宣導但問題是你平常就要下載那你同時又有另外一個叫做消防防災一點通的APP在這個消防防災一點通的APP它跟警政服務有哪裡不一樣部長您知道嗎"},{"start":7406.331,"end":7407.253,"text":"細節的部分是不是說明一下"},{"start":7411.075,"end":7416.058,"text":"因為如果你們大家都不知道的話那你印這個本子給大家然後自己都不知道自己的本子的內容是什麼那請問一般人他會看嗎他會下載嗎 他會使用嗎遇到問題的時候真的有用嗎我們希望這個冊子是有用的因為消防 防災一點通就我理解因為他的資訊會有包括配售站救濟站等等的這些位置來 我們看他相對剛才警政服務的APP比較好的地方是他不需要有這麼多的註冊行為"},{"start":7440.535,"end":7454.449,"text":"而且它可以下載離線地圖所以其實我很懷疑為什麼你們在防空警報的這個部分要放的是警政服務的APP而不是防災的這個1.通的APP但它一樣有一個問題來 我給您看一下下一張圖片"},{"start":7458.537,"end":7478.986,"text":"同樣是一個 這就在我們旁邊而已你看雙月食品設計南店旁邊同樣在不同 左邊是警政的左邊是警政服務的APP右邊是消防防災伊田東的APP它都是屬於防空避難處所它寫了人次 左邊寫的是645人右邊寫的是1416人請問哪一個數字才是正確的"},{"start":7487.909,"end":7503.104,"text":"我想這個相關的這些你講的這些數字的這個部分我們再來跟這個內政部再來核對一下我知道啊但因為你們冊子都發我意思是說你們在因為"},{"start":7504.285,"end":7526.71,"text":"出版機關是國防部嘛上面印QR code也是國防部印的嘛所以你們既然你要說這是一個當危機一來臨時的台灣全民安全指引照理來說上面所有的資訊你們都要進行過查核都要知道它到底是不是正確的而不是現在已經印出來了要發了都花了錢了然後才說我們再來看看那個APP怎麼樣這是不對的再來呢我們可以看到的是說呢來"},{"start":7533.564,"end":7542.486,"text":"你們裡面齁這個離線地圖的部分像好大家知道我們在隔壁這個中心大樓我們寫的避難人數是多少人嗎"},{"start":7548.874,"end":7575.972,"text":"2214在我們中心大樓裡面如果今天有防災的話我們周邊來的人要進到我們的防空殯而且是地下室有2000多人所以我的意思是說我建議國防部還有跟內政部一同針對我們全台灣也可以請台北市政府一起幫忙到底有多少的防災避難人數他是可容納的我就真的應該要重新的去檢討"},{"start":7577.433,"end":7601.478,"text":"甚至我們周邊有很多其實是相關的政府部門他也有地下室的但是很多並沒有被納進來可是有非常多的私人住宅大樓是被納進來的這棟其實位置在哪裡很清楚我就不多說了可是你部長你確定今天如果災難來臨的時候一般民眾進得去嗎這個門口大家都是鎖起來的"},{"start":7607.163,"end":7613.786,"text":"你確定大家進得去嗎我想委員指的是應該指的是說這個地下室他可能在那個會關著嘛對啊 他在大樓是這樣子嘛車道是這樣子嘛然後我要是住戶我才有車道的這個鑰匙嘛可是他也是所謂的防控避難的處所嘛"},{"start":7625.831,"end":7647.32,"text":"他上面寫的一邊說他可以容1416一邊說645我現在已經不知道哪一個數字是正確了然後呢你現在告訴我這麼多的私人住宅大樓裡面都是屬於防空避難那我今天我住附近的人又可能住四層樓公寓我沒有地下室我要去躲啊那請問我到了這個私人住宅大樓的時候我真的可以進得去嗎"},{"start":7650.978,"end":7673.378,"text":"我想這個其實在重建過程當中有討論是不是請全統委報委員如果說高樓層的是就地避難然後低樓層的像地下室來實施避難這個在我們在製作的時候警政署內政部都有做過相關討論那另外什麼討論你討論完之後有沒有寫在上面嗎"},{"start":7674.099,"end":7696.037,"text":"我的意思是說你今天的這個冊子就是要讓大家看了之後包含你的QR Code引導之後沒有任何問題我可以很直接很直覺的我就可以到現場我今天如果是我在附近的一個住戶或者是我附近經過的時候我看到了我下載了這個APP告訴我說這裡有一個地址可以收容1416頁我到了現場我進不去請問該如何是好各位人請您看到第16頁"},{"start":7702.622,"end":7724.202,"text":"他是針對了 第16頁是針對了天災 他有好幾種太陽包含了地震 土石流 驗射湖 然後呢他都有教民眾求生避難的一個方式我知道 我現在問的就是在防空避難嘛 你跟我講其他的做什麼呢你現在跟我講地震 你16頁寫什麼 你唸給我聽標題"},{"start":7727.782,"end":7733.845,"text":"妳不要這樣糊弄大家喔我跟妳講的事情跟妳現在講的事情不一樣喔妳16月標題寫什麼地震 土石流 海嘯跟颱風我問妳的是什麼我問妳的是防空警報跟防空避難處所這有一樣嗎"},{"start":7744.712,"end":7749.678,"text":"我只是跟委員報告不用只是因為你要回答我問你的問題你懂我意思嗎如果我沒有問那你就無需回答那我問了你應該要回答我不能我問你A你答我B這是不對的所以我現在只問你"},{"start":7760.209,"end":7780.944,"text":"關於防空警報發生的時候民眾不管從他的第7頁警政服務APP或者是他的第23頁吧21頁的消防APP裡面看到了我已上了資訊之後我到了這個地址我真的進得去嗎如果進不去的話他該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":7783.134,"end":7795.204,"text":"我想這個相關的這些住宅第一個當然要允許他進駐第二個就是說他如果有相關的管理人員的時候也要允許他進駐所以這個都要經過相關的演練那對 所以需要演練可是因為現在已經演練好了如果今天現在此時此刻發生了防空避難然後我要到這個大樓就在我們隔壁而已我相信大家都非常清楚是哪一棟我進得去嗎"},{"start":7811.036,"end":7819.141,"text":"如果進不去的時候我應該要如何跟政府單位聯絡讓我能夠進去因為當下我們應該是有進去的權利因為我們要避難那請問在這個手冊裡面有沒有告訴我們任何的辦法如果今天在政府公開所寫到的私人的避難場所私人住宅大樓的防空避難所進不去的情況之下要跟誰聯絡讓民眾可以進去避難"},{"start":7840.215,"end":7863.241,"text":"所以我想我們必須要逐步的擴大這樣的演練一直到全區都要能進行演練就是說當防空警報響起的時候這一個被列為這個防空避難設施的就要讓這一個讓這些非住戶的部分的民眾為了避難所需也要能夠進入部長我完全同意您的說法但是這一份是不是很快就要發給大家了預計什麼時候發放"},{"start":7870.166,"end":7885.623,"text":"包委員今天會有四提次那我覺得有一件事情你們真的要檢討你不能等發放下去大家都拿到資訊之後你們才來針對這些細節做處置"},{"start":7887.785,"end":7890.286,"text":"你們那沒辦法因為已經要發了嘛那是不是能夠盡快的去把我剛剛講的這些問題能夠來完成避免大家收到啦真的發生的時候啊去了現場之後啊進不去又要在外面跑到別的地方"},{"start":7904.694,"end":7928.056,"text":"這就變成是這本手冊上面登載的資料跟實際發生的情況不符合也就失去了我們印刷這樣手冊的意義所以我們希望國防部可以針對這些地方再去做努力我大概簡要的跟委員報告一下在我們整個由國安會做這樣跨部會協調的時候大概就是說明第一個 防空避難的指引要逐漸的要方便"},{"start":7929.417,"end":7956.89,"text":"第二個就是航空避難的能夠容納的這個人數大家要經過精確統計剛剛委員有指教這兩個的系統不一致這個我們也要來下去由前動署跟請公安會我們來進行一個協調那第三個當然就是說當航空警報響起的時候如何能夠讓飛助護能夠進去各個航空避難設施這個要經過不斷的演練讓大家都有這樣的意識那包括就是說他有保全人員跟沒有保全人員"},{"start":7957.81,"end":7986.312,"text":"怎麼樣子的一個作為那最接近你的地方那在聽到防空警報的時候要做什麼樣的處置我想這個都要經過相關的演練那最後因為這個本子就要發了所以呢你們要做的剛才的這一塊你講的我都同意但是因為要發了所以應該要儘快完成否則你會變成你發了一個本子但是實際上面不符合現實的情況那這樣就失去了硬質的意義了所以希望國防部儘快檢討好嗎"},{"start":7989.674,"end":8003.679,"text":"好我們現在修正宣告待會賴志寶委員質詢結束以後進行處理臨時提案處理完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請王帝宇委員上台質詢麻煩部長請顧部長"},{"start":8022.773,"end":8050.292,"text":"部長早在我今天一個比較大的題目之前有一個個案我想讓國防部知道我們今天當然談的是軍人的心腹是讓每一個每一位我們國軍的弟兄姊妹都是國家重要的資產我相信我們以前在部隊不管當排長當聯營長都有一句話說要把自己的弟兄照顧好我昨天在地方服務的時候突然有一個年輕人30來歲"},{"start":8052.608,"end":8073.258,"text":"跛著腳然後眼歪嘴斜的走進我的辦公室他還講不好意思我走路比較慢等我一下他慢慢走進我辦公室然後坐下來之後他把資料給我看他曾經是我們高雄燕巢工兵訓練中心上尉姓劉我資料待會給陸軍他在民國109年3月4號在聯集合場在出勤務的時候當場"},{"start":8081.338,"end":8110.254,"text":"腦出血 暈穴然後我們講的中風了就送到醫院去了然後一直治療到2025年 今年7月30日那整個人就是肢體 顏面 各方面你可以想像一個30來歲的年輕人人生會過得很辛苦這個是我們的國軍袍責就好像發現一件事情沒有辦法申請軍保理賠"},{"start":8112.165,"end":8137.601,"text":"我還問他說你軍保理賠這樣損失多少350萬他未來人生要40年50年都要面對這個狀態一個人他就一個人然後問了負責我們軍保的那個保險公司說不好意思你超過兩年沒有申請你的權利上司了然後呢部隊裡面的負責團體軍人這個團體意外保險理賠的負責的同仁"},{"start":8141.997,"end":8156.279,"text":"那個人事官還怪他說你第一時間為什麼沒有提出申請他第一時間昏迷啊他這筆錢沒辦法申請求助無門所以跑了蠻遠的路到我那邊"},{"start":8157.742,"end":8173.569,"text":"這件事情我希望他算是一個個案可能也代表一個現象那個參謀長這邊有沒有什麼解決的方法包委員我簡單向您報告謝謝委員的關切這個案子我也針對這個案子召集了法務你知道這個案子嗎"},{"start":8174.429,"end":8198.746,"text":"召开了一个专案的了解那我简单的报告他109年的您所谓的这个身体中风这个状况那事实上他已经符合了所谓他已经请领了这个身心一等残的一个资格那因为他是符合终身抚恤那每年都有他抚恤这块我们军方有办他是属于一等残坦白讲"},{"start":8201.048,"end":8212.602,"text":"這麼年輕的弟兄領一等殘是一個我們當然不希望看到的事情我現在講的是軍保這一塊軍保這一塊因為礙於現行的規定他的確他如果要用現在他因為在11月1號已經辦退伍了"},{"start":8214.864,"end":8242.122,"text":"那他如果要追溯就是说拿出最新的证明可是他可能会影响到他的这个终身一等残的判定所以我简单的讲终身一等残的判定领取终身抚恤跟这个团体保险他在现在这个状况下他只能选择对他权益最大的这个事情我不晓得部长是法律专家我们会持续的我们不管是国军花钱或者我个人花钱我投保了"},{"start":8243.123,"end":8272.649,"text":"跟我在職業 職場上的職災這兩個不能二則一啊 拜託報告委員我們會再來聯繫這個劉尚蔚我花保險就是在現有撫恤體制上能夠加值叫保險嘛保險是花錢買的耶我到了幾等殘根據殘等你該賠我就賠我現在我們的軍保其實有很大的問題啊我改天要專題討論這個我們就變成是這樣子你要國家幫你處理了"},{"start":8273.612,"end":8302.996,"text":"我就不賠了那這麼好賺啊我們下去再找這位劉先生就是我們的劉尚偉跟他做研討再向您報告這是一個概念我們的撫恤是我們軍人的權益是政府作為雇主要負擔的責任保險是我付費買的我希望一輩子不要用到當我出事了國家照顧我但是我買的保險也該賠我啊"},{"start":8304.517,"end":8324.307,"text":"怎麼說你撫恤這個屬於一等殘終生月撫恤可以領所以你這個要二則一我現在在場所有的將領我們都不希望看到這個事情我們自己跟親人都不想看到這個事情怎麼會發生之後保險不賠那是保險公司我保你何用啊因為撫恤比較高啊誰會去選保險"},{"start":8325.953,"end":8345.672,"text":"之前還發生一個事情 我在義務役受訓跳那個500障礙跳的時候 腳受傷了自己到民間 這個參謀長知道嗎 到民間就醫那因為那役其實四個月的 退伍了不賠不賠家人怪罪國軍 其實他是有保險的"},{"start":8346.875,"end":8370.687,"text":"軍保說沒有 他退伍之後自己到民間醫院就醫 我不賠我們的軍人保險 坦白講對軍人到底是一個保障還是當冤大頭每年扣那麼多錢給這個公司這個我要希望部長把這個題目這個個案去研究一下 怎麼會撫恤比較優渥所以你的保險二則一那這保險要幹嘛呢"},{"start":8371.613,"end":8397.77,"text":"你懂我意思嗎 部長對這事情能不能請部長透過這個個案了解一下因為這牽涉到我們的我們幾十萬的國軍弟兄姊妹的權益我想對這個問題我需要下去了解一下因為相關的這個保險的理賠條件跟這個相關的這些撫恤的關聯性我想我必須要再進一步了解三件事情第一個軍保的理賠的要件"},{"start":8398.908,"end":8413.943,"text":"你不能脫離社會不能對軍人這麼嚴苛第二件事情我們的人事官面對弟兄會申請這個大概就受重傷了要主動幫他辦而不是說你又沒有提出申請兩年申請期過了不能幫你辦這不對"},{"start":8415.683,"end":8444.284,"text":"因為他在部隊發生事情才會適用這個所以發生事情該做的撫恤我們記得幫他辦撫恤卻忘了幫他求償幫他申請理賠這是第二件事情第三個事情對於這樣的國軍弟兄他求救無門我們國軍要有門讓他來尋求協助這三件事情是不是請部長跟我們各軍種可以注意一下我現在請教另外一個事情是有關國防大學的心格我這邊有"},{"start":8446.94,"end":8468.17,"text":"我剛才看了一下國防大學的使命願景還有宗旨那個國防大學你們其實我不知道是蠻懶惰的還是作業疏忽你們發現你們社校宗旨跟另外一頁的學校的使命一個字都沒變都一模一樣所以你們的宗旨跟使命很好完全符合當然就不用寫兩次"},{"start":8469.491,"end":8484.522,"text":"你們社校宗旨跟使命是培育武德武藝兼備之建軍備戰領導及專業人才建立國防事務決策及研究機制與能量這是國防大學的宗旨跟辦學的使命"},{"start":8485.162,"end":8509.68,"text":"然後你們願景是建構哲學科學兵學一體全人教育環境這個runway of education這個是我們一般的文學校也是這個全人教育環境那確立軍事學門領域地位幾身世界一流軍事學府我當然不是要挑戰你們辦學品質什麼的我現在要講的是我們學校的設計在國防院校國防大學軍事專業素養重要"},{"start":8512.574,"end":8538.705,"text":"軍人的武德軍人的專業素養重要但是學術其實應該並重這兩個都一樣重要那這兩個一樣重要呢在軍人的這個天性是服從跟紀律長官的命令就是服從跟紀律但在學術領域叫做開放跟學習開放的心態接受不同的學門不同的心知然後樂於學習這兩個看起來是有點矛盾"},{"start":8539.545,"end":8559.737,"text":"但在國防院校裡面如何把它融合西點軍校啦 Virginia啦我們國防大學我們都希望是這樣子所以在學校的校務的部分其實應該有一些設計也就是我們目前國防大學所有的所有從校長 學務長 教務長一直到各院長都是兵科為主"},{"start":8560.936,"end":8578.988,"text":"我不是說兵科不好他有軍事的專業素養可是我沒有管理學院我沒有統計的概念的我當院長我沒有教育背景的我沒有學術背景的我讓學校的一級主管校長副校長全部都是有軍事背景卻沒有學術背景"},{"start":8580.134,"end":8600.406,"text":"那這個就有點失衡光教評會啦各方面可能就有一些處理上他會變成是以服從跟紀律為主開放跟學習變成不只是為府可能就變裝飾品那我還是要強調一次軍事的專業素養軍事的體質是很重要的不能偏廢所以我們可以參考其他國家"},{"start":8601.266,"end":8620.309,"text":"美國的國防大學他有一個provostprovost是教務長教務長也是vice president就是他們學校的學務的副校長叫做學術領域的副校長這一個他們任命的是以文職任用但要求要有教育戰略研究背景"},{"start":8621.05,"end":8638.548,"text":"日本的防衛大學他叫防衛大學校他有一個教育研究的副校長他特別在軍職之外設計了一套學術領域在學校輔助補強學術的部分他教育研究的副校長呢負責的教育品質研究學術倫理計畫審查那協助校長進行教務決策"},{"start":8644.333,"end":8661.08,"text":"韓國的KDU韓國國防大學他有教務副校長他也是文職具博士學位特別側重跟教育部門的聯繫要密切英國的這一個防衛大學防衛學院他有一個學術方面的"},{"start":8661.926,"end":8689.181,"text":"有軍文協同有文職來擔任協助軍文協同的制度所以是他山之石可以借鏡所以根據我們國防大學的軍事教育條例第八條第一項我們現在條文是軍事學校社校長一人然後呢副校長教務長政戰主任相助校長等等這是目前的我不知道這個國防大學或者我們部長願不願意去推動因為這不難"},{"start":8690.39,"end":8717.387,"text":"我們不偏廢我沒有要把軍職的拿走我們應該可以增設一個文職的副校長讓文職的副校長他在有學術背景有教育背景有戰略背景來相助學校在學校的部分然後我們國防大學組織歸程的第七條裡面也有類似的部分所以我就這個題目最後我請教我們的部長跟我們國防大學這一個心格的推動你的意見是什麼"},{"start":8718.607,"end":8732.797,"text":"我想委員的指教我會來全面的來檢討整個國防大學的組織架構那因為它有涉及到條例要修法也有可能涉及到組織規程的修改"},{"start":8733.437,"end":8754.948,"text":"那相關的這些蚊子的這些副校長的設置的可能可行性還有各學院他是不是要多有這個蚊子的人員來參與這個我想都可以來檢討部長不只是研究像我之前推動國防醫學院的校務基金因為那個一研究十來年都沒動"},{"start":8756.589,"end":8778.982,"text":"那時候在邱國正在設置了設置的時候對國防醫學院其實有很大幫助這事情我覺得應該把它當作一個命題那我剛才講的各學院用軍人我覺得OK 軍人當院長那軍人當院長的話其實我們有兵科專長比方說國管院是不是有國管院專長的因為將來的將領我要用兵我這個兵夠不夠專業我用的這個軍官夠不夠專業"},{"start":8781.844,"end":8806.14,"text":"他是來自於這邊訓練出來的才祖祖技各方面他有這方面的專業來相助我們的將領做學測才會相輔相成嘛所以在國防大學我們國防人才的培育軍事領域學術領域測重我們的終止願景我一開始就念了所以我是建議部長跟國防大學去思考在副校長的部分可以增設一個學術副校長"},{"start":8807.352,"end":8826.538,"text":"然後在我們的一級主管裡面有關教務的部分也許可以軍文通或者是以文職為主學院的部分尊重軍人背景但是要側重專長這是我個人的潛見至於條例的修法或者學校"},{"start":8829.179,"end":8854.218,"text":"組織規程內規的修訂修法的部分我已經連署在提出也就是說這是一個中性的針對國防大學的心格它不是政治議題而是說我們的國防大學目前有沒有可以做得更好的部分現狀不錯我可以讓它更進步這個部長能不能給個時間你們的研究多久可以有個方向出來我想委員我有看到提案是說兩個月以內"},{"start":8856.441,"end":8880.469,"text":"我尊重你認為適合的研討時間但我不希望這個議題一直拖下去我想是不是就三個月還是三個月吧OK 三個月我可以接受我們就要把這個命題研究出來然後我們來推動把這個東西修改然後讓國防大學我是希望它更好對 因為我覺得不是單純副校長的問題剛剛提到的這些我想應該要全面的來檢視好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位"},{"start":8888.042,"end":8890.742,"text":"謝謝接下來請賴氏寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席一起各位先進了有請顧部長請部長"},{"start":8913.211,"end":8935.449,"text":"是 老委是 部長你好我請教一下是怎麼樣這個大陸有共諜 高院在昨天晚上這個裁定這個羈押什麼之類的這個到底是怎麼樣一回事啊怎麼軍中包括退役的包括現役的通通會淪陷的到底是怎麼一回事跟委員報告我想"},{"start":8939.785,"end":8967.772,"text":"我這邊能夠說的大概就是說我們在今年的時候有執行一個內部清查發掘那就通報那我們就由縣子部跟調查局來共同調查那確實是由我們兩位縣議的人涉案那現在已經起訴那這個那細節的部分因為已經進入司法程序我就不在於評論這樣子"},{"start":8968.832,"end":8970.414,"text":"這個是什麼時候發生的您說什麼時候對 什麼時候你開始啟動調查我們在一月如果你要講就一月的時候執行內部清查就發覺了是發生什麼問題所以要清查"},{"start":8990.355,"end":9017.232,"text":"對就是說他有一些收集一些相關的一些不當的資訊應該是這樣子然後有一些財務的狀況那我想細節我想細節當然這個已經交給已經記錄釋放了大家可以講說就是說有清查發現他有收集不當的資料然後有財務的相關問題那我們就認為是有問題的所以財務上的一個進出是不是這個意思"},{"start":9019.097,"end":9040.585,"text":"就是有相關的金流跟不正常的這些金流跟這些收集相關的資料我想我就講到這邊我們主動請老華姐因為我們亂了半天啦這個我們不斷的所謂的抗中爆台亂了半天 講起來還是很多啊"},{"start":9042.706,"end":9070.202,"text":"這個整個情況的共諜還在國防部裡面都有先例的軍人都有就不知道怎麼去弄好 第二個問題我想請教一下這個關於日本首相講的話說台灣有事日本自衛隊講什麼什麼我請教是不是用白話文講就是台灣有事日本會出兵是不是可以這樣講"},{"start":9072.011,"end":9099.779,"text":"我想高市首相是從日本的在面臨這個當中國以武力來這個使用武力來侵犯台灣的時候對於日本所產生的一個這樣的一個狀態的一個危險他做一個他們的基於首相他們在議會質詢的時候做一個說明"},{"start":9101.427,"end":9113.52,"text":"那我就問你啊所以是可能涉及到他的說明據我們了解是說當中國以武力來進行的時候會涉及到這個這叫做什麼存亡唯存利"},{"start":9117.512,"end":9134.336,"text":"存立危機的狀態這樣沒有 我問你的是白話文講可不可以解讀說日本首相要告訴早苗說如果台灣被侵略日本要出兵可不可以這樣解讀我想就是簡單就這樣我想應該是這樣講就是說日本的認知到台海的安全局勢是攸關日本的安全"},{"start":9147.509,"end":9159.731,"text":"那所以一旦台海發生任何的衝突他整個周邊國家的安全會受到非常大的威脅所以這個日本他要強調就是說他對於他們的這個"},{"start":9162.527,"end":9177.851,"text":"應該講說純利為己的一個狀態已經可能可以構成了所以日本會根據這樣子的一個具體的事態來做相對應的因應你還是沒有回答我的問題就是他要不要出兵這件事情他發動他的部隊來幫助台灣就問這個問題"},{"start":9185.127,"end":9212.983,"text":"我想我沒有辦法幫忙日本的首相再回答進一步他只是在說明當這一個台海發生衝突而且是武力的一個衝突的狀況形象之下對日本產生的威脅到什麼程度好 那現在應該是到哪一個純利為己的一個狀態所以你還是不敢回答那你可以看他講這個話之後美國跟日本有軍事同盟美國沒有講話"},{"start":9214.755,"end":9240.028,"text":"你不覺得很奇怪嗎 對不對日本首相講這個話 高市長講這個話他的意思是用百花紋講就是如果台灣被打了 危險到日本的安全他們會出兵 百花紋就這個意思那可是川普都沒講話耶 這很弔詭的美日有安全的頭目可是為什麼美國都不講話"},{"start":9242.119,"end":9243.703,"text":"還有最後一個問題結果老公海警船巡邏要釣魚台"},{"start":9250.898,"end":9276.64,"text":"這個我們的海軍有沒有角色扮演這第二點是我們的啊當然你會講說這是海巡署前面可是一般來講人家說海巡署在比如說靠近12海浬可是軍艦可以在24海浬比較遠一點的地方來這個來保護我們的海巡署這個你怎麼看我想兩點第一點剛剛委員問到美方沒有"},{"start":9278.361,"end":9300.209,"text":"發言的這件事情我可能要說明一下其實美方的這個不管是國防部長或者是印太司令他們都一再的去說明整個印太區域的和平穩定是屬於美國的一個核心利益這樣子的一個從他們要看到這個整個區域的和平穩定那而且他們要協同各個這個"},{"start":9302.492,"end":9321.253,"text":"區域的這些民主國家來共同達成一個集體嚇阻這樣子的一個政策我沒有看到改變也就是說他要求大家加強自我的防衛力量不是只有針對我們也包括對於可是日本都講了台灣就是他出兵但是美國都沒有說他出兵"},{"start":9322.093,"end":9332.56,"text":"拜登說有 川普到現在為止沒有說他要出兵幫忙換位 台灣沒有你講那個比較形容詞委員的問題應該就是說美國的態度他在這一件事情上面我是認為他還是以實力來尋求和平這樣的態度那是你解讀了你回答我剛才的問題就是要掉一台的事情"},{"start":9348.363,"end":9373.864,"text":"我們會有一個應變區的一個規劃那麼進入我們應變區的我們都會因應什麼意思 什麼叫應變區就是只要進入應變區的那如果是屬於 具體一點可以嗎中國的海警船我們就用海巡讓我們軍艦支援那如果是屬於軍艦進來我們的應變區我們就以軍艦來對應那現在我們的海巡署的船沒有看到"},{"start":9376.203,"end":9389.488,"text":"我想就要看有沒有進入我們的應變區如果有進入我們應變區我們海型就會對應那是多大 在幾海裡我們的應變區的話 我想可能如果委員需要了解我們在私下再跟委員做一個說明好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":9399.755,"end":9416.373,"text":"我們現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀第一案第一案 中共對我國立法委員沈伯陽進行立案調查云與通緝一事中共對我國國人皆無管轄權又我國屬民主國家即便意識形態不同"},{"start":9417.014,"end":9442.908,"text":"人民人身安全及言論自由接受中華民國憲法保障本會委員沈博洋受中共立案調查一事其言論應予以維護否則民主自由體制必難以存續更是攻擊我國憲政制度之核心本會應呼籲中共自我克制並予以嚴厲譴責其二人委員王定宇 林楚英 盧美玲 陳俊宇 陳冠廷等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":9445.993,"end":9467.081,"text":"請問提案委員有沒有需要說明的部分我簡單說一下謝謝主席本席提案按由剛才已經宣讀那基本的原則是不容許中國以中共的政治目的政治標準對台灣的任何國人任何一位"},{"start":9468.241,"end":9485.966,"text":"進行長臂管轄 跨境鎮壓中華人民共和國沒有司法管轄權中華民國不歸他管這是一個基本態度我們在國家我們的國家範圍內我們在自由的世界中不管任何主張接受我們憲法所保護"},{"start":9487.287,"end":9508.193,"text":"包括我們在場國軍是憲法的部隊接受憲法所保護中華人民共和國無權以這種莫須有的理由對任何人任何人 我在強調是任何人這不是一個人的事情進行這樣子的政治動作所以意見不同但是一樣有權受到國家跟憲法的保護"},{"start":9509.313,"end":9529.625,"text":"當然我們遺憾願不做那我們委員會應該可以來做特別這一次牽涉到是本委員會的同仁所以對於這個案子我們希望提案通過國防外交委員會呼籲中共作為一個大國要以文明崛起 贏得尊重老是這一種耍流氓手段"},{"start":9530.566,"end":9539.855,"text":"你只有大但沒有任何文明可言那我們給予最嚴厲的譴責希望本會能夠一致給予通過以上提案說明 謝謝請問其他在場委員有意見"},{"start":9549.284,"end":9566.142,"text":"我是連委員謝謝謝謝主席喔那麼有關於這個文字的部分喔整體我們都是支持王定宇委員跟我們的提案那麼在這個本會呼籲中共應自我克制我希望做一下這個文字的修正"},{"start":9578.908,"end":9599.295,"text":"文字修正的部分提案委員或其他委員我沒有意見我本來以為他要把自我克制改成因自我了斷但是沒關係我尊重他的文字修正語句比較順OK好那其他在場委員還有沒有其他意見沒有意見本提案照案通過修正通過現在請議事人員宣讀第二案"},{"start":9608.137,"end":9624.21,"text":"第二 國防大學作為國軍最高學府肩負培育具備現代化思維與戰略思維軍官的重責然而 從此以來校長及各級主管多由現役軍職幹部兼任導致學校文化偏重紀律服從"},{"start":9624.89,"end":9650.006,"text":"缺乏教育行政與學術治理的專業背景以部隊管理模式套用於學校運作的現狀限制了學術發展、創新思維的孕育以不符國防轉型與知識戰時代的需求為持續推動國防教育的現代化進程國防部應參考國際軍事院校的經驗建立軍事教育專業化與學術自主間的優化平衡機制"},{"start":9650.686,"end":9671.695,"text":"藉由學術專業來領導學術事務全面提升國防大學的教學品質專業研究能力及國際合作能量建築本席建議建請國防部研議軍事教育條例第八條及國防大學組織規程第七條條文修正之可行性建議依明文規定國防大學設置軍文"},{"start":9673.176,"end":9675.677,"text":"主席因為剛才我跟部長有溝通過我可以就把請國防部於兩個月改成三個月好"},{"start":9698.874,"end":9708.862,"text":"那其他委員有沒有需要說明的部分有沒有意見那國防部對於提案內容有無意見我們遵照辦理那本提案修正通過現在休息五分鐘五分鐘以後繼續詢答"},{"start":10074.288,"end":10078.189,"text":"我們繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上台質詢好謝謝主席我請一下我們的顧部長還有我們採購室趙主任以及中科院院長趙主任還有李院長"},{"start":10101.3,"end":10126.954,"text":"所以問我也好好 部長我前兩天再度的去踢爆你們針對一個管制的黑名單廠商叫做豐益這個豐益公司的負責人叫做陳永培那這家公司在今年6月份已經被桃檢起訴那而這個公司在之前事實上"},{"start":10128.157,"end":10145.202,"text":"中科院就已經發現它的飛彈火箭的原料出現稀產地的問題它使用了陸製品但是它用作越南製那這個案子在去年4月我也開記者會"},{"start":10147.643,"end":10169.932,"text":"再度的踢爆這個事情那而後來我們的徐巧欣委員也在我們的國防外交委員會提出質詢當時我們的趙主任說中科院會把黑名單提供給軍方然後會做管制這都是去年4月的事情"},{"start":10170.592,"end":10197.937,"text":"但是竟然在今年這家公司繼續的得標而且呢我剛才講在桃檢已經給他起訴之後還繼續得標那麼他的相關公司一共就是得標了將近1億元9100多萬好那我現在要請教一下中科院到底有沒有把這個黑名單瘋疫公司提供給軍方有沒有"},{"start":10198.834,"end":10222.567,"text":"所以委員好我是國防採購室主任跟委員報告從委員質詢去年4月質詢之後我們當月就要求中科院提供名單當時第一份的名單是20家那目前最新的每月逐月逐月都提那這個最新的一份是40家到今天40家我們都不是這家風衣公司是在20家還是在40家之中"},{"start":10223.227,"end":10231.336,"text":"從第120家到現在的40家裡面 都在都在好 那如果都在的話 那請問一下為什麼今年還要給他得標呢竟然他已經把黑名單給你們了你說這個20家是什麼幾月 今年 今年初"},{"start":10242.128,"end":10257.314,"text":"包委員因為因為中科院拒絕往來廠商啊他是非政府採購法停權的廠商所以說他是可以這個所以可以繼續給他那請問一下這家廠商來我請院長來回答一下這家廠商你們給他停權停權時間是多久呢3年可以再延長從什麼時候開始停權從去年發生去年4月發生事情的時候我們就停權了"},{"start":10270.936,"end":10299.679,"text":"我這邊得到資料是113年2月他停權3年到116年的2月那所以中科院已經有把這個名單提供給國防部了是有提供給國防部但是呢剛才趙主任說雖然提供給國防部但是呢因為根據採購法他還是可以繼續得標是這個意思嗎停權是不能再參與我中科院的標還是我把他停權了是但是國防部就採購法來認定的話"},{"start":10300.836,"end":10322.842,"text":"是由國防部來認定 沒錯就是你們在去年的時候已經提供給國防部了對不對就說你認為你的責任已經盡到了好 那主任所以這個那幹嘛讓中科醫院提呢你們浪費這種時間幹什麼按照你的說法是說他還是可以繼續得標啊是這樣嗎"},{"start":10323.522,"end":10346.004,"text":"是 我們請中科院提供這個名單的 當時講的管制啊管制什麼就是管制這些黑名單在國防部的標案我們會持續針對強化在履約中個案的這個對場上的查查所以這個強化的結果是今年它的包含瘋疫還有它另外的什麼永冠 久移能夠將近1億元管制成這個樣子是嗎"},{"start":10347.185,"end":10361.502,"text":"沒有 我們是管制他履約不能夠違犯契約的內容另外我們也要求這個全軍啊因為我們也知道你們這樣有沒有問題嘛你這樣有沒有問題 好 來那個 因為我時間有限部長"},{"start":10363.099,"end":10380.475,"text":"剛才這樣子應該你很聰明啦你應該都聽懂他們什麼意思了讓中科院提供提供所謂的管制名單已經是被拒網戶囉已經被停權了三年然後提供給國防部照樣他這是三軍啊通通都在得標啊請問一下這樣的採購程序有沒有問題啊"},{"start":10385.366,"end":10405.339,"text":"跟委員報告大概分三點第一點就是說有關那個已經在他每個月提供以後那麼已經在旅業中的案件的話他就要強化旅業文件的查證增加房廠督檢的品質還有落實交貨驗收查驗來確保交貨的品質跟產地來源無疑這個是在旅業中的部分"},{"start":10405.979,"end":10423.099,"text":"那麼有關這個招標的這個部分呢如果它是屬於最有利標的方式的話它就會被納入這一個有關這一個等於是負面的這個記錄所以就會提交委員就把它列入這一個所以這家公司真的超級好"},{"start":10424.201,"end":10437.834,"text":"已經有被拘謊戶然後你們還用最有利標最有利標他就不能得標就最有利標他不能得標那現在委員問的就是說這些有得標的他是屬於最低標的那這個涉及到一個法律問題就是說"},{"start":10439.375,"end":10456.329,"text":"中科院它不是它是屬於自辦採購案所以它不是屬於政府採購法規範的停錢廠商所以現在有一個法律上的爭議就是說這些不屬於政府採購法的停錢廠商那如果我們辦的案子承攬國防部的這些所屬的標案假設是在"},{"start":10457.35,"end":10464.273,"text":"最低標的這個方式的話而不是才最有利標最有利標他沒有拿到那屬於最低標的這個方式的話他還沒有來投標的一個資格那如果他有投標的一個資格他得標了以後我們針對他履歷中的購案我們為了防範他違反契約我們叫相關單位持續要來落實我剛剛講的這些項目來確保交貨的品質跟產所以現在有關"},{"start":10483.022,"end":10506.249,"text":"對 那所以現在我跟委員報告就是說我們現在對於廠商的這個投標的這個資格我們現在會來跟工程會做一個探討就是說它屬於中科院自辦的這個部分而不是屬於被停權的這個部分我們可不可以在我們另外國防部的這個部分的招標文件限制這樣子的一個廠商"},{"start":10508.709,"end":10524.256,"text":"來進行投標然後讓他的資格標你們會被要求限制嗎你們會被要求限制所以我們要跟工程會來其實還有另外一個喔這個是你剛剛講他是中科院的黑名單另外一個已經被起訴的案子在10月份繼續讓他得標這個有沒有問題一個被起訴的案件"},{"start":10530.502,"end":10549.211,"text":"這也是瘋疫公司 這就是委員講的瘋疫所以有沒有問題 你現在是怎樣而且在去年我們都有媒體披露委員開記者會 委員質詢然後你們說會管制 管制成這個樣子"},{"start":10550.512,"end":10569.9,"text":"所以跟委員報告我想我會請你們立刻防堵好嗎立刻檢討可不可以我現在就是在檢討這個案子然後相關的資格標有沒有構成他不能夠連資格標都不能夠來有符合這個資格根本的"},{"start":10570.765,"end":10578.749,"text":"不能夠來進行投標所以你的意思是中科院跟你國防部不是一家的啦中科院都已經是據網的名單然後你們國防部還覺得把三軍都包給他相關的其他機關如果是屬於採購法所訂定的然後已經被納入停權廠商的這個部分是沒有問題的"},{"start":10589.995,"end":10593.937,"text":"那現在的問題是中科院他並不是按照採購法那這沒有按照採購法的這個部分我們除了就旅業中的案件還有有關最有利標的都把他納入他不能夠絕標的不能夠來DROP這個標案也對於旅業中的案件加強督促以外關於其他的最低標的這個部分他能不能是"},{"start":10610.843,"end":10616.626,"text":"進入這個資格都沒有我會盡速的來進行這個檢討我很少看到你一直跳針這也代表你自己也覺得這個程序是怪怪的啦很奇怪所以請你們盡速的把這個漏洞給補起來好不好所以我們來跟工程會來確認不要再發生這樣的事情這樣子很扯啦大家會覺得這個瘋疫後台到底是有多大好不好"},{"start":10639.182,"end":10648.927,"text":"我想應該沒有沒有對我們來講沒有這樣的困擾那怎麼可以漏洞可以可以鑽那麼多然後還可以得那麼多的案子呢好不好我們盡數立刻檢討謝謝謝謝剛剛主任說的那個理由你們自己可以說服自己吧"},{"start":10656.109,"end":10662.652,"text":"中科院做的是我們他接的都是國防部給的預算他做的是飛彈現在有這樣的問題我們居然可以對這個廠商沒有辦法這樣是說得過去嗎這個法律條文相關的請提供給本委員會好不好那後續應該要怎麼處理國防部在處理其他的事情的時候都可以很決絕的"},{"start":10678.86,"end":10694.498,"text":"哪些可以哪些不可以甚至有些有條件的你們都可以拒絕像這樣子做我們國家的尤其是飛彈你們常常說陸製的有陸製的通通不可以可是所有的我們看到很多都是鑽這樣的漏洞"},{"start":10695.058,"end":10714.349,"text":"請把剛剛說的那個理由可以提供你的法律條文還有相關的疑義你要怎麼樣積極的去救這個案子其實應該就要馬上做處置不然你以後其實就不要做這樣的規定那如果有必要連中科院的一些相關的採購法都應該要做修正謝謝那接下來請林黛華委員林黛華林黛華委員不在請葉元之委員上台質詢"},{"start":10730.962,"end":10733.263,"text":"主席好 麻煩請部長 謝謝請顧部長各位好部長 現在國防部預計要動用第二預備金6440萬要去發放加護的全民安全指引我想問一下因為有關於財政紀律先不講說這個發有沒有效益"},{"start":10756.636,"end":10772.207,"text":"因為第二預備金講的是比如說因應一些緊急狀況那我不知道為什麼國防部認為這那麼緊急為什麼不能夠直接編預算放在正常的公務預算然後讓立法院來審呢這個事情有那麼急嗎要用到第二預備金嗎"},{"start":10773.773,"end":10791.659,"text":"跟委員報告第一點就是說我們資本印製的費用決標的金額是4279萬這第一點 第二點就是說依照預算法的70條第一款的規定就是說各機關原列的計畫費用因為適時的需要奉准這個修訂然後這原列這是原則嘛"},{"start":10792.719,"end":10806.825,"text":"不要一直念那個原則我們原則上是這樣但大家都知道為什麼會有第二預備金預備金是要預料一些就是一些沒有辦法預料的狀況所以要有一個預備金在那邊那如果你要編這個全民之音手冊實際上"},{"start":10808.225,"end":10836.469,"text":"你就可以預料啊比如說你明年你要發放那你就可以把預算變在明年拿來審嘛這個有急到那麼地步嗎原來是印五千本那後來因為這個政策主導之後我們現在要普發之後你普發可以明年再普發嘛你不急著一定要現在立刻普發有差兩個月台灣現在立刻要打仗了嘛我想就這一個不是 這個說不過去啦我覺得這個很擺明的就是要規避審查嘛"},{"start":10837.964,"end":10855.402,"text":"我想没有这样子的一个规定那你为什么不编在正常预算里面你有差这两三个月吗就刚刚讲的因为原来你讲说可以按照程序来说只要奉行政院合可都可以但是大家讲的是说第二预备应使用的用途跟性质嘛你这个东西没有到这么急嘛"},{"start":10856.192,"end":10882.698,"text":"第二一倍金的用途裡面也包括了原列計畫費用不足的問題但是這東西沒有那麼急嘛我覺得它的用途當然有一個優先順序在這邊就是說因應比較緊急的狀況那你這個東西實際上我覺得你晚兩個月三個月半年發大家都不會覺得有什麼奇怪的地方啊所以我覺得如果是磁力一開啊那都可以用這種方式規避監督了啦第二個"},{"start":10883.991,"end":10904.686,"text":"一般國防部會有一些什麼國防白皮書那個每兩年會發一次像國防白皮書的編輯是非常嚴謹的都會找學界各方的觀點然後大家一起來討論然後最後推出我想問一下這個全民安全指引有成立編輯委員會嗎"},{"start":10908.234,"end":10926.874,"text":"我想全民安全指引整個的這個籌編的一個過程因為是有跨部會的所以是由國安會來進行這一個所有的全民安全指引的手冊的一個編修那有 所以有編輯人會他編輯的方式是什麼"},{"start":10927.848,"end":10947.25,"text":"各單位把它的意見傳給國安會國安會就把它編成這本手冊是不是我們全動組會擔任秘書單位對 那全動組應該會知道它的編輯過程啊有詢問外面的專家學者嗎所以這個版本就是現在賴政府對於所有全民最想要傳遞的訊息是不是就濃縮在這個手冊裡面"},{"start":10949.752,"end":10973.92,"text":"我想這個相關的這些手冊跟過去的全民國防手冊有很大的不同它因為是比較是一個全民的安全指引所以它有參考這個相關的歐洲國家那也有請教這個專家學者的意見也有專家學者然後所以才編出來的那部長想必你已經看過這個手冊吧是你有看過嗎你覺得這個手冊編得好不好"},{"start":10975.171,"end":10991.41,"text":"我想在推出的時候各方的反應都還不錯有不錯嗎怎麼跟昨天那個國安會開記者會我在網路上看到的差很大很多人都覺得浪費錢很多人都說拿來蓋泡麵你覺得很不錯你覺得會達到效果"},{"start":10992.093,"end":11017.554,"text":"部長覺得會達到效果我覺得在強化這個全民安全意識上真的嗎 你真的這樣覺得嗎我認為提高全民防災避難的意識這個是有必要的當然要提高防災意識但是是不是採取這個方式嘛現在大家講的是方法嘛有沒有必要花六千多萬因為你除了印製之外你還要找地方人力去發送嘛有沒有必要做這個事嘛而且再第二個就是為什麼一定要印紙本我看國防部的說法是說為了要服務長者是不是"},{"start":11019.896,"end":11037.034,"text":"我想你如果參考其他包括捷克 瑞典 芬蘭 亞森尼亞他們都有普化資本是啦 別的國家是這樣所以你的意思是因為別人要我也要做純粹是這樣嗎純粹是這樣嗎在數位之外他們也不是一個在數位部分不划算的國家"},{"start":11037.895,"end":11063.904,"text":"那為什麼都要來普發最主要當然就是說要讓這個家戶到位之後他們對於這個任何這個危急狀況來臨的時候不管是天災或者其他的狀況不是 部長你的邏輯就是這樣你的邏輯是只要有普發就可以達到效果好像每一個人家裡面信箱多了這本手冊效果就提升了我覺得這個是大家很打折扣的地方很多人也許拿到丟掉"},{"start":11065.264,"end":11084.464,"text":"拿到之後拿去做別的用途拿到不打開你如果內容不夠實用不夠吸引人你一樣不會達到效果啊所以國防部怎麼會認為說我只要有做就一定達到效果我不知道你的科學根據是什麼啦那再來就是我看到權動署有回應就是說為什麼不是用數位的因為有數位落差有些長者他不會看數位是這樣嗎"},{"start":11085.405,"end":11105.457,"text":"那如果即便是這樣你也不見得要普發因為各縣市政府都有針對長者有列冊啊比如說發放老人研經啊或是打疫苗那你也可以採用別的方式直接把紙本發給長者也可以啊那你現在用全部普發方式你塞到一個信箱裡面第一個你怎麼知道那個信箱一定有住人第二個你怎麼知道那個一定有長輩因為我覺得這個做法"},{"start":11108.311,"end":11119.385,"text":"在還沒有經過很充分的討論的情況之下就直接動用第二預備金就發了而且我都還沒有講內容啊有的內容會讓我們感覺哇 這個緊急到是不是已經馬上要打仗了"},{"start":11119.915,"end":11139.923,"text":"譬如說有一個內容是叫大家分辨分辨說因為距離的關係所以你看到軍隊不見得知道那是敵軍還是我軍所以只要看到軍隊就趕快先避難裡面有一頁是這樣講如果在你們講的這麼緊急的情況之下台灣現在是不久後馬上要進入巷戰"},{"start":11141.215,"end":11165.378,"text":"我想台湾是一个很多天灾事故的地方所以不但只是您讲的这些状况也有应付到天然的重大灾害的状况都需要做这样的平时的准备然后在能够危急来临的时候才能够做好根据这个准备来让自己变得更安全"},{"start":11167.159,"end":11189.757,"text":"這裡面有很多可以檢討的地方發放的方式 內容的充實度還有預算的資用我覺得國防部這樣的做法完全是逃避捐都這真的是非常的專制就是你覺得OK但是其實花的都是人民納稅錢六千多萬也都是人民納稅錢這一筆是有算在我們的國防預算裡面嗎沒有 這個是行政院的第二一倍捐"},{"start":11190.75,"end":11218.506,"text":"我知道那問題是你用途就是國防預算的用途嘛所以這也沒有算在國防預算裡面因為是動用到第二預備金是對啊我們不是現在都政府都很強調就是說我的國防預算變多少代表說國防預算變得多就是我們重視國防嘛所以其實也是有很多不是在國防預算裡面我想國防預算那是一種你看要怎麼定義它的問題但是我只能夠說這個來源是行政院的第二預備金"},{"start":11219.628,"end":11233.361,"text":"這我當然知道所以我就覺得不合理我覺得國防部這樣做法大家都不太認同你們部長你應該去參考一下網路上大家的輿情反應不是說你們覺得有做就是好謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11239.383,"end":11256.392,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請黃仁委員黃仁黃仁委員不在請吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在請蘇清泉蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在請徐富奎徐富奎徐富奎委員不在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢主席好麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":11275.157,"end":11291.224,"text":"是 陳偉陽部長好 部長8月份的時候8月份的時候國軍有執行這個海空的精準彈藥射擊演訓那有發生這個印美的愛國者二型飛彈在發射之後的4秒鐘它有產生意外的事件"},{"start":11292.028,"end":11317.051,"text":"那之前這個包含媒體也有在詢問那我們的回應是說我們認為類似這樣子的演訓對我們來去檢視自己裝備的這個準備度還有它的良率還有它的臨時的反應都是有幫助的所以我也認為說其實在演習的時候發生事故剛好是可以讓我們檢討的一個很好的方式它可以釐清問題的癥結"},{"start":11318.852,"end":11342.526,"text":"但是事後國防部有說了他們會跟美方來去共同調查之後會給民眾一個說法或者是一個未來避免的解決方案那經過了三個月了那我想知道說是不是有初步的調查結果那是飛彈的本體的問題是發射程序的工作問題環境因素問題操作問題還是什麼樣的原因"},{"start":11343.883,"end":11368.289,"text":"保委員 跟您做個簡單的報告這個案子目前現在還在送美方的部分還在調查那我們這邊的調查初步已經排除了天氣跟人為的因素那朝機械的部分在做調查因為這個系統很複雜所以說我們要將這個紀錄器送到美方去做一個詳細的調查那這個部分我們跟美方同步都還在進行中"},{"start":11369.025,"end":11386.045,"text":"排除環境藝術排除發射程序工作問題環境藝術跟人為操作的問題都已經目前都已經排除所以可能是工程上面的包含是非常本體的問題這方面的資訊美方還在檢閱當中會最快的速度跟我們回應"},{"start":11387.006,"end":11404.571,"text":"那過去類似這樣子的像等於是我們重要的防衛系統飛彈的防衛系統那類似這樣子演練出現這種意外之後那到我們釐清真正的問題的所在大概通常都要花多久時間"},{"start":11405.287,"end":11422.524,"text":"包委員 這個要看狀況因為每一種一個飛彈系統本身是非常複雜那如果我們在實彈上的這個演練的話它因為沒有記錄器就是沒有所有的這個遙測資料可以下來所以說這個調查也不一定會有明確的一個結果"},{"start":11423.625,"end":11440.926,"text":"這個是在實彈設計上的一個限制那如果說是演訓上的話我們是可以把它改裝成遙測的這個部分但是這個部分跟實彈就會有一些差異所以各有利弊那這個調查的部分沒辦法跟委員報告說大概多久的時間會出來瞭解"},{"start":11441.647,"end":11469.088,"text":"那未來有沒有要增加演訓的頻率至少在實彈的部分會再考慮跟所有的因為這個跟戰備上也有很大的關係戰備演訓我們會綜合考量完了之後會做一個決定那每一年這在國防部都會做一個討論最近我們在看這個國防部的在關於愛國者飛彈的採購案那如同有一些我們的各種的軍購可能有相關的延宕"},{"start":11470.29,"end":11495.146,"text":"那原本是規劃2027年這一個會結案那現在說美國雷神要展延那我想請教一下這一個採購案會不會有延宕的可能性委員您指的是愛國者的採購案嗎對我們前面的採購案已經都已經在進行中所以說有管制說在2027年底的交運完畢"},{"start":11496.84,"end":11519.735,"text":"目前僅剩飛彈尚未交運完畢已經要求美方去合約執行這個是在第一我們就是全面的這個飛彈採購目前都是在進行中也是在進行中那就是會按照目前都是按計劃在進行中所以至少在這一個部分我們是按計劃進行中沒有延宕的問題嗎是OK好謝謝那再來想要請教部長這關於"},{"start":11521.836,"end":11537.704,"text":"感知的量能就是说不管是透过卫星的去感测或者是说用各种方式来去反制中共那我们都有很多的这个情监侦的系统不管雷达卫星等等都有"},{"start":11539.184,"end":11557.749,"text":"但是我們最近發現到一件事情就是說我們會跟很多的這種衛星的公司會有直接的合作但我們得到的是它的等於是raw data直接得到的是資訊但是我們分析的人員其實就是一定的數量所以我們可以得到很多大量的資訊"},{"start":11558.709,"end":11570.278,"text":"但是來去做判斷來去做分析當然是還是要由我們國防部的人員來去做分析因為數據自己本身沒有意義是人去做他的判斷跟分析"},{"start":11571.141,"end":11597.384,"text":"那現在很多民間的這種就在進行公開情資的研習包含IOGR這些民間組織都會定期去揭露中共的這些資訊那有一些什麼包含這個民間的這些組織之外有一些甚至是非本科系的這樣子的對國防有興趣的他都會自己努力來去做這些公開情報的揭露"},{"start":11598.004,"end":11620.669,"text":"那我們認為越透明越把公開的情報揭露給國際社會看那更能夠去延期共軍的動態或者是這個中共未來的方向我想請教像包含軍情局電展室一定都有相關的監測工具那甚至我相信他們得到的data一定會比或許會比民間更多很難說因為現在"},{"start":11623.229,"end":11645.221,"text":"從過去這個美國國防部他是主要的國防的投資人到現在公司比較起來的話私營的這種企業投入的金額甚至更大所以我譬如說過去是由國防或者是安全相關但是由政府一方面去做壟斷的但是現在隨著民間的科技技術然後還有他們的這種"},{"start":11646.721,"end":11671.892,"text":"一代一代的這種科技的更新速度都已經超過原本政府能夠採購的這種繁雜的程序所以包含美國之所以會有這一個他們有Defense Innovation Unit也好DIU或者是DIO等等就是為了要因應這種科技的快速商業的科技的快速的進展來去彌補說我們包含美國五角大廈一直在檢討的這種採購過程的長期"},{"start":11675.153,"end":11701.238,"text":"變成說會要經過太多的process會延宕來去無法應對最新科技的現代化那現在我們跟包含這一些民間協力公開的情資的研析或者是這一些民間的組織有沒有相關的合作或者是說有沒有一些相關的協助讓我們能夠除了由國防部本身由國家之外"},{"start":11701.738,"end":11706.344,"text":"甚至一邊的民間都可以參與讓我們的防衛跟安全能夠更上一步"},{"start":11708.427,"end":11732.655,"text":"委員的意思應該有分兩層一個是跟民間人士合作一個是說我們根據這個所謂的公開情誌就Ocean的這樣子的一個情誌來源然後導入我們的這個系統裡面一併去做分析我想這兩個又略有不同所以我想你用這個公開這個情誌來源然後去做分析這是我們現在已經在做的部分"},{"start":11733.335,"end":11750.63,"text":"那跟民間人士的這個合作可能要看涉及到一個機密跟就是說有涉及到國防機密跟軍事機密要不洩露的一個情況之下我們會跟民間人士來做一些交流這樣子"},{"start":11751.711,"end":11778.397,"text":"在2016年的時候大概2015年2016年的時候那個時候美國有一個叫做MD5就是軍事第五區的一個概念那個概念就是說他們結合包含他們的一些各個頂尖的大學理工的大學也有研究國際關係的大學也有跟美國的這些國防相關的這些實驗室他們把它做一個開放"},{"start":11779.077,"end":11801.976,"text":"讓這一些學生能夠針對一些由美國國防部他設計的專案讓他們直接進入國防領域國防產業裡面也就是說他們包含把創投融合進來把產官學融合進來讓這一些學生能夠在或者是不見得是學生可能是業界的人士能夠有四到八週的訓練課程這四到八週他們"},{"start":11802.737,"end":11828.878,"text":"首先當然要做security clearance就是把他們的背景先審查完之後這些經授權的這一些學術人員或者是學生或者是這些相關的科技人員去跟美國各個基地來去他們交流之後由這些各個基地提出他們的問題如果是空軍的話可能是提出怎麼樣可以更快速的做維修或者是如果是陸軍的話可能是他們的穿戴的設備怎麼樣來去做改進由"},{"start":11830.499,"end":11856.823,"text":"國防部做一個統籌讓他們可以用他們的實驗室用他們的設備 用他們的資源提出解決方案也就是由這個地方開始慢慢的才會有DIU DIO的概念因為他們在先端的做法有成功的打入他們的國防體系有一些新創公司成功的進入他們的國防體系所以才會有後來的DIU或DIO真正的來去把採購過程的縮短或者是說把這些科技應用在美國的群訪"},{"start":11857.463,"end":11875.1,"text":"它是經過10年左右的試驗我大概是在2016年 2015年的時候也有提出相關的文章來去做這個簡報發覺到現在由於科技的速度更快我們可親近性的這種能力也更快以前這種衛星的你說間諜衛星也好"},{"start":11875.62,"end":11901.058,"text":"他的精度是必須由政府的所掌控的這些艦艇衛星才能夠看到我們一些軍事設置現在是商業的衛星其實都可以做到相當的程度那包含各種不同的衛星你說遙測的或者是說他可能是用其他的這個SAR還是用各種其他的雷達技術等等我們必須要盡快的把這個gap民間跟軍方上面能夠做一個統合因為我們面對的是中國這一個"},{"start":11902.338,"end":11919.992,"text":"資本是非常重的一個國家他們把大量的資本投入他們的國防技術不計成本 不計開銷就算我們國家就算投入一兆也好比起中國的這一個他們國家的投入的資金還是有點差別我們唯一能夠做的就是把"},{"start":11921.333,"end":11944.107,"text":"這種蓬勃發展的民間的產業 民間的企業我們的製造也好 我們的科技也好或者是我們的這個對國防相關是有興趣的產官協科技人士也好 創投人士也好 新創也好結合在一起的話那我們在量跟值就是有機會跟中共來去做一個對抗啦那我還是希望說"},{"start":11945.388,"end":11972.983,"text":"盡量想辦法把它擴大化讓更多的參與方進來這樣我們的scale才夠大我們的量夠大能力才能夠提升剛剛委員一開始問的是情資的分享的這個概念另外下來如果委員問的是一個共同研發的概念我可以跟委員講就是說我們包括跟學校包括跟產業我們都已經有在進行只是說這個地方就有它一定的機敏性那這些人員都要做查核"},{"start":11973.263,"end":12002.708,"text":"也要做某種程度的管制那這些都有在進行創投的話或者是這些Venture的這些資源可以進來嗎創投應該它是要去做那個投資的部分那這個投資在我們的這個不管是國內的或國外的軍工產業就這個部分創投當然也是一個要屬於要進行的方向不過這個部分比較主要屬於國發會他們那個部分在主導"},{"start":12004.71,"end":12025.291,"text":"還是可以想一下因為很多新興的團隊以前就像我們剛才提到的其實五角大廈也好或者是他們作為一個平台去對接的對象就是讓這些小小的新創團隊慢慢的可以成為來去承接他們的國防產業的如果你講的是對新創的投資就剛剛講的投資這個就屬於"},{"start":12028.213,"end":12047.683,"text":"這個要去找到一個適合的一個標的他需要有資金的需求一般來講上市公司比較沒有那不是上市公司 新創公司可能會有那這個會由國安會來進行評估那國安會有相關的這種對於安全國防的有相關的在進行中好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":12066.701,"end":12068.726,"text":"好 謝謝召委 有請顧部長請顧部長部長午安"},{"start":12078.851,"end":12104.503,"text":"部長有關心理健康的相關議題在國軍工作環境的這種特殊性還有勤務日益繁重之下我們的官兵心理衛生的工作也應該受到高度的重視我想先從初級發掘的階段來和部長您做討論早期的發掘固然很重要但是在現實層面上預防始終難以落實"},{"start":12106.504,"end":12122.742,"text":"先前就有審計部的審核報告當中指出有158名的智商人員其中130名在案發前是沒有經過初級發掘的輔導也就是漏接率偏高的問題"},{"start":12123.863,"end":12150.149,"text":"當然我們也知道這個基層官兵的這個業務相當繁重可能很難去做到人人都是守門人的這個階段更不可能全部都靠我們輔導長來負責那在這個基層人力吃緊日常的這個業務又相當繁重的這種情況之下我想請教部長我們在這個初級的這個階段怎麼做到有效的發掘並且能夠及時的介入"},{"start":12151.91,"end":12174.194,"text":"我們所以在今年2月有實施一個尋求外部資源的一個心理健康照護方案那這樣子他就可以主動就是說他可能覺得跟部隊反應會有壓力那他尋求這個民間的資源那我們才會有這個328所的民間的資商那他不需要有任何的轉介"},{"start":12174.827,"end":12191.085,"text":"那他自己也對他的隱私有所保障的情況下他是去尋求主動來進行這個諮商的一個協助那我想這個部分會讓他比較願意去在初步的這個階段就願意去"},{"start":12191.886,"end":12221.332,"text":"那後續如果說這個跟我們合作的機構他經過這樣來主動求助以後如果他發現這個是具有高風險的時候那再把這個高風險的部分轉移給到我們的地區心理衛生中心我們就可以直接來進行這個專業的處遇那這樣的話我想就可以把這些高風險的這個部分降到最低那另外有關初步他去尋求這個求助的部分他可以也維持他的隱私"},{"start":12222.194,"end":12241.889,"text":"那化解我們在初級化解預防的這一塊他可能會面臨的一些壓力或者是我們的部隊在這個部分的警覺不足的這方面的彌補也就是透過跟民間合作嘛對 全球民間的資源對 民間資源合作那我們目前這個成效如何"},{"start":12243.155,"end":12258.032,"text":"我們因為是今年2月才開始到10月31號為止已經有過4860人次的這個去做然後自主約的比例是97%所以自主約的比例是蠻高的好那在這個報告當中我們有"},{"start":12260.414,"end":12282.165,"text":"這個提到說這個量表施測的部分那據我所知我們國防部從去年的6月要求除了部分單位因為這個執行任務受限之外其他的部隊目前都是使用這個依新守護這個APP來做施測那施測的頻率是每季配合我們戰演訓任務時機來實施在這個測驗結果會由APP系統來判讀"},{"start":12290.149,"end":12310.855,"text":"如果有重度情緒困擾的高風險人員我們就會用手機訊息來協助新府官和單位幹部來掌握針對這個APP的使用我想了解的是我們從智商的案例往回推有多少是從量表能夠看出異常的"},{"start":12311.395,"end":12335.761,"text":"在今年發掘心理困擾的這個7749名的官兵當中又有多少是經由這個APP發出警訊讓我們能夠發現的那國安部對於這個新府量表的施測效果如何檢討那這部分是請部長請要說明一下它這個量表其實我們有分兩種委員提到這個是屬於APP的部分那APP的部分我們"},{"start":12336.821,"end":12359.583,"text":"大概是由幹部來做那這個是提供一個官兵的一個一個心緒狀況的一個掌握那經由APP的個案114年來看的話大概有大概4890大概近5000大概從這個地方可以看到有一些算是心緒有一些"},{"start":12360.223,"end":12379.753,"text":"不穩需要介入輔導的一個狀態那另外其實還有一個一個量表的部分我們是在做年度體檢心理健康檢查的時候這個時候是由我們的身心科醫師跟心理師還是公司去做做了量表之後還會做一些訪談這個部分軍醫局要不要補充一下"},{"start":12382.077,"end":12405.59,"text":"委員好 那軍事局為了補強在我們的初級跟第二級的心理的這些篩選所以利用我們每年國軍體檢所有的國軍志願役士兵的體檢都會增加一站叫心理健康專區會由精神科醫師或精神心理師跟社工師來做評估"},{"start":12407.671,"end":12420.231,"text":"那這樣的成效也是相當的好等於說在部隊沒有發掘的利用每年的體檢的時機也可以增加多一層的篩選在體檢的過程就先因為體檢每年都要做"},{"start":12422.847,"end":12450.682,"text":"那另外有關這個目前所執行的這個二級的介入輔導還有這個三級的專業處遇他所涉及的這個專業和權責有幾個問題想來請教部長我們現行這個國軍所進行的心理輔導是否有涉及到這個心理師的業務範疇那如果由非專業的這個心理師從事心理輔導甚至是心理智商有沒有潛在的一個風險"},{"start":12451.943,"end":12466.485,"text":"那倘若這個心理諮商是屬於醫療行為部長我們是不是可以考慮由國防部體系下的這個軍醫局來負責跟委員報告就是二級他只是輔導他沒有到達能夠心理諮商的"},{"start":12468.247,"end":12491.519,"text":"所以才會有三級三級的話就是包括了國軍醫院精神科醫師然後還有我們在桃園台中高雄花蓮的地區的心理衛生中心那這個幾個地區的人他就具有證照具有相關的證照那就可以做專業的心理智商那所以這個還是有區隔好"},{"start":12493.154,"end":12514.367,"text":"那從這次這個報告當中也有提到在今年我們官兵求助的這個樣態當中以這個新訓單位的人員比較明顯尤其是這個二兵還有哨衛級的這個軍官四支顯示我們新進的人員確實有心理照護的這個需求"},{"start":12514.887,"end":12536.162,"text":"那我們新進的官兵在融入部隊生活的過程中難免會遇到不適應的狀況這部分我想請教部長我們在對於新進人員尤其是一年期的義務役有沒有針對這些官兵的輔導工作進行加強目前各新訓單位的輔導量能是否充足"},{"start":12537.973,"end":12557.005,"text":"跟委員報告,就是說醫務役入伍或者是任何新進人員的話,我們就會分這個階段,大概包括入伍一週內,還有薪子報到的一到三個月內,還有一個美季,那就分別實施這個國軍的心理健康的一個品量表。"},{"start":12559.248,"end":12574.382,"text":"現在就會來讓這個來還有這個身心狀況量評量表還有檢視的健康量表然後這個分別來做那我們來瞭解這些新進人員的一個身心狀態都有確實在落實"},{"start":12575.963,"end":12603.383,"text":"我們從這幾次我們台灣所發生的風災都有國軍我們官兵投入救災的第一線協助我們相關救援的任務面對災區滿目瘡痍的景象必須做好充足的心理建設在整個過程搶救完畢之後我們這些官兵我想我們也需要特別留意的是"},{"start":12604.403,"end":12619.329,"text":"避免他們的心理健康受到相關的影響那這個部分我想請教部長就是我們對於這個投入救災的這些官兵在完成救災任務之後是否都有安排相關的這個輔導工作那我們現在的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":12621.346,"end":12648.172,"text":"向委員報告我們的官兵他的單位只要投入到救災的這個任務單位就要派遣心腹官一開始就派遣心腹官陪同讓他們能夠掌握官兵的一個心虛狀況那麼救災任務結束之後我們會針對救災官兵的心理狀況做一個心理壓力的一個檢核措施那麼在檢核出來有異常狀況的我們會持續去追蹤看就是要進行到二級輔導或者到三級處遇的階段"},{"start":12650.413,"end":12675.588,"text":"那這個部分我們都會持續來做那就持續追蹤我想我們針對這個官兵的這個心理照護還有這些心理衛生工作大部分僅能夠作為補救的相關措施那未來除了這個強化心腹的專業之外我們還是要回過頭來對於這個人力的配置內部的管理甚至"},{"start":12676.188,"end":12693.777,"text":"部隊整個文化等等一併進行檢討改善才能夠有效來照顧到我們官兵的心理健康唯有這個國軍的這些我們士官兵心理健康才能夠確保他們保家衛國的一個量能"},{"start":12695.157,"end":12705.423,"text":"這部分是不是請我們國防部還有我們相關部會來重視對 我們想新武的工作應該都要持續來加強持續來加強好 以上謝謝部長的這個答詢謝謝委員謝謝接下來請鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在請蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜 蔡易瑜委員不在"},{"start":12726.206,"end":12754.841,"text":"今天已經登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由陳永康委員黃仁委員林黛華委員徐富奎委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報委員書面及口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請國防部兩週內以書面答覆委員有約定期限則從期鎖定本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}