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二位好來 部長這個不只這樣你們跟這個執政黨會員們呢大家唱說聚焦喔其實重要"},{"start":35.371,"end":52.423,"text":"來講不是什麼要一邊一邊特別預算 重要就是要不要幫助無人機產業很重要加兩個字喔 加四個字 技術升級 這個才重要沒有錯 現在已經有無人機產業了 台灣怎麼說 說到我們才通過了"},{"start":56.953,"end":69.459,"text":"經濟部補助了442億幫助無人機五年 未來的五年然後呢 說我們去年的產值129億這個比前年成長2.5倍外銷成長27倍台灣無人機產業早就有了啊今天這是要怎樣這個等於是我們很少特別醫生這樣子啦編了直接給廠商這錦上添花嘛"},{"start":85.663,"end":98.716,"text":"我就問部長馬上有一個問題就出現了無人機有兩百六十幾架請問你按照你要買二十一萬架是不是二十一萬台都是無人機嗎"},{"start":100.131,"end":103.813,"text":"21萬架的無人機,還有1300多艘的無人艇對,21萬架的無人機,1300多架的無人艇無人艇這一部分,等一下會講,無人機的這一部分"},{"start":117.638,"end":136.307,"text":"請問你 你大概會分成幾包啦得到標的廠商大概幾家我們原則上就是每年會一標嘛然後會採公開招標的方式公開招標最有力標有沒有限制性標沒有 就最有力標 然後複數決標"},{"start":137.628,"end":161.339,"text":"好 那就問你投標的資格有沒有限制我想投標的資格我們會依據相關的政府採購法政府採購法規定還有積極資格 消極資格他要做過這一方面的大家現在擔心的是什麼擔心的是現在最近在講的啊會不會過去一個茶葉山來飆啦又飆到啦"},{"start":163.24,"end":180.854,"text":"家庭裝潢的標也標到了 炸藥也標也標到了大家擔心的是這個部長你怎麼樣去排除他不是這個行業的人不知道透過什麼關係或者透過因為他是綠油油的企業就可以得這個標 怎麼樣防止這個事情"},{"start":182.835,"end":196.685,"text":"委員好我是國防採購室主任向委員報告我們第一個原則一定是依據政府採購法剛剛委員所講的廠商的資格當然廠商的資格第一個是基本資格那基本資格我們原則上因為時間短"},{"start":199.907,"end":215.799,"text":"特殊資格我講特殊資格不能亂電因為亂電就會不當限制廠商不當限制廠商或土地廠商那你回答我吧我們是依據貨案的特性需要還有市場傷情情況來 你要告訴我們你這個是趙明軒哥告訴我們怎麼樣防止外界"},{"start":225.013,"end":246.801,"text":"擔心的無人機又是要土地特定的廠商 擔心這個問題 怎麼來這是防幣的問題 防幣我想應該是從定的價格 尤其是規格規格基本上是依據我們作戰需求 但是作戰需求合不合於市場行情 我們是會先公開徵求"},{"start":247.941,"end":267.044,"text":"公開越來那你回答我大概幾個廠商會得票嘛反正你是市長是不是因為我實在有限我沒辦法很抱歉你要打斷我你講什麼你講你包容誰多啦你給我背教科書讓我有時間喔你回答我大概幾家廠商會得票"},{"start":267.985,"end":296.417,"text":"這個目前 不得而知當然知道啊 怎麼不知道呢那你跟我們要兩千兩千多億是什麼要的 當然知道說我大概發給幾家廠商 很好算二十一萬家的無人機如果一個廠商可以 很好算嘛一萬台 那就二十一家廠商所有 我想這個所有國內廠商都有資格來參標我就告訴你啊"},{"start":298.532,"end":325.188,"text":"部長 兩位長官啊我能記得廠商有兩百六十幾家 核次長很清楚的當我沒有得到標的時候 我連標的資格都沒有的時候他心裡一定是XXX Why not me?我為什麼不Qualify?我為什麼把它被你們Screen out?這問題在這裡啊你要想一個馬上就有人講 Why not me?"},{"start":326.636,"end":347.113,"text":"為什麼不是我我如果跟你們參與競標 我輸了 認了結果現在連標的資格都沒有因為你們在這個標案的資格你們就會去掉一些 就會放一些條件在裡面保委員 絕對不會有這種情形好 還是不會喔尤其是公開我們就講喔 壞媽咪今天我要跟你講"},{"start":350.155,"end":376.693,"text":"我們有兩百六十幾家的無人機廠商我相信得標的不會超過五十家其他的兩百多家一定這樣 看來六百三還有咧 其他的廠商咧跟委員報告就是說他因為要整機交付嘛可是剛剛提到的這些每一家廠商都有他的一個優點但是最後要有一個系統整合能夠整機交付"},{"start":377.333,"end":399.251,"text":"所以他有...系統整合的能夠做的廠商沒幾家喔系統的整合的廠商就是他要去統合所有其他不管是飛控、通訊、光電、導航、看干擾等等這些廠商他們有相關的能力然後他們自然會對我們相關的公告的這些規格進行投標因為我時間快到了齁我跟你講齁你給我回答一個問題"},{"start":401.144,"end":425.852,"text":"我問了幾個專家 說你要買的無人機21萬架裡面真正的High-end所謂High-end就是Low-endHigh-end是自動導航 還有其他的我就不細講了因為這個太多是有技術問題的High-end只有2000架左右 2000台左右其他都比較是Low-end所以"},{"start":428.84,"end":444.218,"text":"怎麼樣讓台灣的無人機產業技術升級變得非常重要這就是為什麼我要提無人機的產業技術升級這就是我們為什麼要提出特別預算的原理沒有啊因為特別預算有一個成本有一個成本的一個效應那麼我們你們買到這一般的無人機啊"},{"start":449.244,"end":455.006,"text":"我們軍規的標準不管在剛剛所提到的飛控、通訊、光電導航跟看到的上面我們訂一個規格然後這個規格我們會根據商情然後我們來逐步引導他迭代創新這個就是長單的效應假設你今天沒有一個長單你今天訂了一個規格那旁邊不知道有沒有那就沒有一個迭代創新的一個驅動力啊"},{"start":471.773,"end":483.98,"text":"一個特別預算或者一個無人機的發展預算各自表述你們一定要特別預算我們一定要一般預算那我們寫個組決議就解決啦我們寫個組決議如果通過是2400、2500、2600不管whatever然後我們就想說未來幾年一定要花這個錢"},{"start":493.266,"end":514.602,"text":"就結束了 按照國際上通過我覺得我們的重點就是我們一定要排紅啦然後我們要讓我們的廠商能夠升級然後跟國際合作藉由非常長暫的效應造成這樣子的一個自主的一個無人載具的一個重點非常重要的一個理念啊我請教你啊美國就在昨天還是前天MDAA 國防授權法"},{"start":519.738,"end":524.948,"text":"在明年的時候那個十億美金我們沒有因為他們被參議院否決了"},{"start":526.219,"end":551.411,"text":"這個事情原來2026年的時候就我的了解NDA包括裡面很多很多議題那這些他們現在所談論的這些相關的課題呢應該就我了解跟這個是無關的因為他們在其他的部分有爭議那NDA所涉及到的相關的事項相當的多啦不用了不用了2026年他要給我們10億叫我們買無人機喔叫我們發展無人機用這個10億喔"},{"start":554.431,"end":575.198,"text":"你沒放進來?沒有叫我們說要買無人機有啊有啊你去讀一讀條文報告委員如果您去看一下那個去年2026 NDA裡面講的是協助我們提升軍用醫療以及無人機發展那個彈藥庫儲等相關的東西以及無人機發展然後來一個我們覺得很奇怪是你們來來來最後一個那個部長啊"},{"start":578.032,"end":606.686,"text":"我看到什麼中央社會的報導說高層官員我相信是國防部的官員向日經亞洲透露我計劃從中科院替海巡署買25艘的無人艇兩艘的無人水下機這個為什麼不是海巡市買來來來 講一下中科院整形怎麼樣海巡是按照中科院設置條例委制給中科院來採購"},{"start":608.243,"end":627.925,"text":"我跟你們講喔部長講說我們要買1300台的無人艇因為這個中科院現在做了要到明年才有pro type才有第一艘的原型艦嘛對不對pro type會在今年就獲得今年那也是一台而已啊量產可以可以"},{"start":628.766,"end":646.179,"text":"不會只有一台來 那個院長我最後一句話你們要注意了那個特別預算是任性的特別預算到時候已經失敗了所以我還要重申部長不要糾結虛擬宜是不是特別預算要想說這個錢給這個比較重要 謝謝好 謝謝賴司保委員 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:35:45.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:35:47.388000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國防部顧部長，還有經濟部何次長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:35:48.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:35:49.269000+08:00","text":"好，請國防部、經濟部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:35:49.889000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:35:49.889000+08:00","text":"委員好。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:35:50.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:36:24.120000+08:00","text":"部長，剛才你們跟執政黨的委員唱作俱佳，其實重要的不是要不要編特別預算，重要的是要不要幫助無人機產業，很重要的是加「技術升級」4個字，這個才重要。","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:36:25.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:36:43.558000+08:00","text":"沒有錯，現在已經有無人機產業了，剛才說我們才通過了經濟部補助的442億，未來5年幫助無人機，然後說我們去年的產值129億，比前年成長2.5倍，外銷成長27倍，臺灣無人機產業早就有了，今天這是要做什麼？","quality":0.887},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:36:44.018000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:36:45.439000+08:00","text":"我們很少特別預算這樣子編了直接給廠商，這是錦上添花嘛！","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:01.663000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:14.716000+08:00","text":"我就問部長，馬上有一個問題就出現了，無人機廠商有兩百六十幾家，請問你，按照你要買21萬架的規劃，21萬架都是無人機嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:16.131000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:17.292000+08:00","text":"21萬架的部分是無人機，還有一千三百多艘無人艇。","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:17.292000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:36.460000+08:00","text":"對，21萬架的無人機，一千三百多艘無人艇，無人艇這一部分等一下我再講，無人機這部分，請問你，你大概會分成幾包？","quality":0.848},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:37.360000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:39.601000+08:00","text":"得到標的廠商大概幾家？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:41.082000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:47.265000+08:00","text":"我們原則上就是每年一標，會採公開招標的方式，用最有利標……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:47.385000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:50.747000+08:00","text":"公開招標，有沒有限制性標？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:50.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:52.307000+08:00","text":"沒有，就最有利標，複數決標。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:53.628000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:37:57.970000+08:00","text":"好，那我就問你，投標的資格有沒有限制？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:37:59.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:03.112000+08:00","text":"投標的資格我們會依據政府採購法相關的規定……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:03.233000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:12.297000+08:00","text":"政府採購法規定有積極資格、消極資格，他要做過這一方面的，大家現在擔心的是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:12.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:25.605000+08:00","text":"擔心的是最近在講的，會不會過去的茶葉商來標又標到了；家庭裝潢的來標也標到了；炸藥也標到了，大家擔心的是這個。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:25.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:36.834000+08:00","text":"部長，你怎麼樣去排除不是這個行業的人，不知道透過什麼關係或者因為他是綠友友的企業，就可以得這個標，要怎麼樣防止這個事情？","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:38.835000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:40.697000+08:00","text":"委員好，我是國防採購室主任。","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:41.257000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:52.545000+08:00","text":"向委員報告，第一個，原則我們一定是依據政府採購法，剛剛委員所講的廠商資格，當然廠商資格第一個是基本資格，基本資格我們原則上是……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:52.545000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:38:55.907000+08:00","text":"時間關係，講重點……","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:38:55.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:03.773000+08:00","text":"還有特殊資格，剛剛委員有講，關鍵是特殊資格，我想特殊資格不能亂訂，因為亂訂就會不當限制廠商或圖利廠商。","quality":0.543},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:05.394000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:10.418000+08:00","text":"我們是依據個案的特性需要，還有市場的情況作為考量……","quality":0.739},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:10.418000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:11.418000+08:00","text":"你說這些我都聽不懂啦！","quality":0.2},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:10.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:25.135000+08:00","text":"你這個是照本宣科，你告訴我們怎麼樣防止外界擔心無人機又是要圖利特定的廠商？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:25.975000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:26.855000+08:00","text":"怎麼避免外界擔心的這個問題？","quality":0.462},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:27.976000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:44.502000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這是防弊的問題，防弊我想應該是從訂的價格和規格著手，尤其是規格，基本上規格是依據我們的作戰需求，但是作戰需求合不合於市場行情，我們會先公開徵求、公開閱覽，就是說……","quality":0.74},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:45.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:47.966000+08:00","text":"那你回答我大概幾個廠商會得標嘛？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:47.966000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:50.469000+08:00","text":"藉由公開閱覽……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:50.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:53.072000+08:00","text":"因為我的時間有限，我沒辦法聽完你的回答，很抱歉要打斷你……","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:53.072000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:54.072000+08:00","text":"才會合理客觀的訂定規格……","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:39:53.813000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:39:58.419000+08:00","text":"你講的都是「黑龍繞桌」，你在背教科書，浪費我的時間。","quality":0.476},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:00.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:02.884000+08:00","text":"你回答我，大概幾家廠商會得標？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:03.985000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:06.286000+08:00","text":"這個目前不得而知。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:06.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:07.327000+08:00","text":"當然知道啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:07.447000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:08.107000+08:00","text":"怎麼不知道呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:08.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:11.128000+08:00","text":"那你跟我們要兩千多億是怎麼要的？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:11.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:20.072000+08:00","text":"當然知道你大概發給幾家廠商，很好算，21萬架無人機，如果一個廠商可以1萬台，那就21家廠商啊！","quality":0.73},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:20.652000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:21.232000+08:00","text":"很好算嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:26.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:31.496000+08:00","text":"我想所有國內廠商都有資格參標。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:31.496000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:46.239000+08:00","text":"我就告訴你，部長、兩位長官，無人機的廠商有兩百六十幾家，何次長很清楚，當我沒有得到標的時候，我連標的資格都沒有的時候，他心裡一定是「叉、叉、叉」啊！","quality":0.855},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:46.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:48.761000+08:00","text":"why not me？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:50.222000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:51.282000+08:00","text":"我為什麼不qualified？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:52.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:55.725000+08:00","text":"我為什麼被你們screen out？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:55.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:40:56.125000+08:00","text":"問題在這裡啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:40:57.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:01.168000+08:00","text":"你要想到馬上就有人講why not me？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:02.636000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:03.137000+08:00","text":"為什麼不是我？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:04.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:16.007000+08:00","text":"我如果跟你們參與競標，我輸了，就認了，結果現在連標的資格都沒有，因為你們在標案資格裡面就會放一些條件在裡面。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"趙主任亞平","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:16.327000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:20.951000+08:00","text":"報告委員，絕對不會有這種情形，我們是公開的，尤其是公開，不會有這種不當的限制性招標。","quality":0.459},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:20.951000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:21.951000+08:00","text":"你說不會喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:20.951000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:21.652000+08:00","text":"我們就講why not me？","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:22.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:38.864000+08:00","text":"我跟你講，我們有兩百六十幾家無人機廠商，我相信得標的不會超過50家，其他的兩百多家一定看了都流眼淚，其他的廠商呢？","quality":0.88},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:39.724000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:53.834000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，因為它要整機交付，可是剛剛提到的每一家廠商都有它的優點，但是最後要有系統整合才能夠整機交付，所以有人會在……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:54.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:41:56.896000+08:00","text":"能夠做系統整合的廠商沒幾家喔！","quality":0.786},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:41:57.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:42:12.069000+08:00","text":"系統整合的廠商要去統合所有其他不管是飛控、通訊、光電、導航、抗干擾等等這些廠商，若他們有相關的能力，他們自然會依我們公告的這些規格來進行投標。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:42:12.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:42:13.170000+08:00","text":"部長，因為我時間快到了。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:42:15.011000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:42:34.429000+08:00","text":"請回答我一個問題，我問了幾個專家，你要買的無人機21萬架裡面真正的high end，remote control這是low end，high end是自動導航，還有其他的種類，我就不細講，因為太多是技術問題。","quality":0.789},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:42:34.709000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:42:53.691000+08:00","text":"high end只有兩千架左右，其他都比較low end，怎麼樣讓臺灣的無人機產業技術升級變得非常重要，這個就是為什麼我要提無人機的產業技術升級。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:42:53.691000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:42:59.517000+08:00","text":"這就是我們為什麼要提出特別預算的緣由，因為特別預算有個長單效應……","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:42:59.658000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:43:00.198000+08:00","text":"沒有，你們買的都是普通的，你們買的都是一般的無人機啊！","quality":0.417},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:43:05.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:43:10.966000+08:00","text":"我們軍規的標準，不管剛剛所提到的飛控、通訊、光電、導航跟抗干擾上面，我們訂一個規格，這個規格我們會根據商情，逐步引導它迭代創新，這個就是長單效應，假設你今天沒有長單，你今天訂了一個規格，明年不知道有沒有，就沒有迭代創新的驅動力。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:43:27.773000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:43:37.039000+08:00","text":"部長，一個特別預算或者一個無人機的發展預算各自表述，你們一定要用特別預算，我們一定要用一般預算，我們寫個主決議就解決了！","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:43:37.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:43:51.748000+08:00","text":"我們寫個主決議，如果通過是2,400億、2,500億、2,600億，不管是多少，whatever，我們就講未來幾年一定要花這個錢就解決了，按照我們的總預算通過……","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:43:52.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:07.060000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，重點就是我們一定要排紅，我們要讓廠商能夠升級，跟國際合作，藉由長單的效應，造成自主無人載具的一個共同點，這是非常重要的理念。","quality":0.836},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:07.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:25.561000+08:00","text":"部長，我請教你，美國在昨天還是前天，NDAA國防授權法在明年的時候，我們沒有10億美金了，因為他們被參議院否決了，這個事情原來2026年的時候……","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:25.901000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:29.883000+08:00","text":"委員，就我的了解，包括NDAA裡面的很多議題，這些不管是……","quality":0.64},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:29.883000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:30.883000+08:00","text":"裡面有臺灣的10億喔！","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:30.043000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:41.248000+08:00","text":"他們現在所談論的相關課題，就我了解，應該跟這個是無關的，因為他們在其他的部分有爭議，NDAA所涉及的事項相當多……","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:42.428000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:43.169000+08:00","text":"可是不能用了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:43.849000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:51.551000+08:00","text":"2026年他要給我們10億，叫我們買無人機、叫我們發展無人機，用這個10億，你有沒有放進來？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:51.551000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:54.052000+08:00","text":"沒有叫我們要買無人機。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:54.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:54.452000+08:00","text":"有啊、有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:54.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:44:55.533000+08:00","text":"你去讀一讀條文。","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T09:44:56.993000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:02.795000+08:00","text":"報告委員，如果您去看一下去年在2026 NDAA裡面講的是協助我們提升軍用醫療……","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:02.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:04.536000+08:00","text":"以及無人機發展……","quality":1},{"speaker":"黃司長文啓","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:06.637000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:08.537000+08:00","text":"彈藥庫儲等相關事宜，沒有提到無人機啊！","quality":0.588},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:10.358000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:36.763000+08:00","text":"最後一個，部長，我看到中央社的一個報導說高層官員，我相信是國防部的官員向「日經亞洲」透露，計畫從中科院替海巡署買25艘無人艇、2艘無人水下載具，為什麼不是海巡署自己買？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:36.763000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:39.745000+08:00","text":"請中科院講一下，這個事情現在是怎麼樣？","quality":0.353},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:39.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:42.686000+08:00","text":"海巡是按照中科院設置條例委製給中科院來採購。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:45.725000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:45:57.798000+08:00","text":"部長講我們要買130艘無人艇，中科院現在做了，要到明年才有protype，才有第一艘的原型艦，對不對？","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T09:45:57.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:00.120000+08:00","text":"protype會在今年就獲得。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:00.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:03.905000+08:00","text":"今年也是一艘而已，量產可以……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:04.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:05.306000+08:00","text":"不會只有一艘，請委員放心。","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:07.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:14.273000+08:00","text":"院長，我最後一句話，你們要注意特別預算是韌性的特別預算，到時候已經expired。","quality":0.784},{"speaker":"賴委員士葆","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:15.294000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:21.639000+08:00","text":"最後我要重申，部長，不要糾結拘泥於是不是特別預算，要想這個錢能給你們，這個比較重要，謝謝。","quality":0.795},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:21.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:22.179000+08:00","text":"謝謝賴士葆委員。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:22.679000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:25.821857+08:00","text":"接下來請邱議瑩委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":288,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時35分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請國防部顧部長，還有經濟部何次長。"],["主席：好，請國防部、經濟部。"],["顧部長立雄：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，剛才你們跟執政黨的委員唱作俱佳，其實重要的不是要不要編特別預算，重要的是要不要幫助無人機產業，很重要的是加「技術升級」4個字，這個才重要。沒有錯，現在已經有無人機產業了，剛才說我們才通過了經濟部補助的442億，未來5年幫助無人機，然後說我們去年的產值129億，比前年成長2.5倍，外銷成長27倍，臺灣無人機產業早就有了，今天這是要做什麼？我們很少特別預算這樣子編了直接給廠商，這是錦上添花嘛！我就問部長，馬上有一個問題就出現了，無人機廠商有兩百六十幾家，請問你，按照你要買21萬架的規劃，21萬架都是無人機嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：21萬架的部分是無人機，還有一千三百多艘無人艇。"],["賴委員士葆：對，21萬架的無人機，一千三百多艘無人艇，無人艇這一部分等一下我再講，無人機這部分，請問你，你大概會分成幾包？得到標的廠商大概幾家？"],["顧部長立雄：我們原則上就是每年一標，會採公開招標的方式，用最有利標……"],["賴委員士葆：公開招標，有沒有限制性標？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，就最有利標，複數決標。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那我就問你，投標的資格有沒有限制？"],["顧部長立雄：投標的資格我們會依據政府採購法相關的規定……"],["賴委員士葆：政府採購法規定有積極資格、消極資格，他要做過這一方面的，大家現在擔心的是什麼？擔心的是最近在講的，會不會過去的茶葉商來標又標到了；家庭裝潢的來標也標到了；炸藥也標到了，大家擔心的是這個。部長，你怎麼樣去排除不是這個行業的人，不知道透過什麼關係或者因為他是綠友友的企業，就可以得這個標，要怎麼樣防止這個事情？"],["趙主任亞平：委員好，我是國防採購室主任。向委員報告，第一個，原則我們一定是依據政府採購法，剛剛委員所講的廠商資格，當然廠商資格第一個是基本資格，基本資格我們原則上是……"],["賴委員士葆：時間關係，講重點……"],["趙主任亞平：還有特殊資格，剛剛委員有講，關鍵是特殊資格，我想特殊資格不能亂訂，因為亂訂就會不當限制廠商或圖利廠商。我們是依據個案的特性需要，還有市場的情況作為考量……"],["賴委員士葆：你說這些我都聽不懂啦！你這個是照本宣科，你告訴我們怎麼樣防止外界擔心無人機又是要圖利特定的廠商？怎麼避免外界擔心的這個問題？"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，這是防弊的問題，防弊我想應該是從訂的價格和規格著手，尤其是規格，基本上規格是依據我們的作戰需求，但是作戰需求合不合於市場行情，我們會先公開徵求、公開閱覽，就是說……"],["賴委員士葆：那你回答我大概幾個廠商會得標嘛？"],["趙主任亞平：藉由公開閱覽……"],["賴委員士葆：因為我的時間有限，我沒辦法聽完你的回答，很抱歉要打斷你……"],["趙主任亞平：才會合理客觀的訂定規格……"],["賴委員士葆：你講的都是「黑龍繞桌」，你在背教科書，浪費我的時間。你回答我，大概幾家廠商會得標？"],["趙主任亞平：這個目前不得而知。"],["賴委員士葆：當然知道啊！怎麼不知道呢？那你跟我們要兩千多億是怎麼要的？當然知道你大概發給幾家廠商，很好算，21萬架無人機，如果一個廠商可以1萬台，那就21家廠商啊！很好算嘛！"],["趙主任亞平：我想所有國內廠商都有資格參標。"],["賴委員士葆：我就告訴你，部長、兩位長官，無人機的廠商有兩百六十幾家，何次長很清楚，當我沒有得到標的時候，我連標的資格都沒有的時候，他心裡一定是「叉、叉、叉」啊！why not me？我為什麼不qualified？我為什麼被你們screen out？問題在這裡啊！你要想到馬上就有人講why not me？為什麼不是我？我如果跟你們參與競標，我輸了，就認了，結果現在連標的資格都沒有，因為你們在標案資格裡面就會放一些條件在裡面。"],["趙主任亞平：報告委員，絕對不會有這種情形，我們是公開的，尤其是公開，不會有這種不當的限制性招標。"],["賴委員士葆：你說不會喔！我們就講why not me？我跟你講，我們有兩百六十幾家無人機廠商，我相信得標的不會超過50家，其他的兩百多家一定看了都流眼淚，其他的廠商呢？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，因為它要整機交付，可是剛剛提到的每一家廠商都有它的優點，但是最後要有系統整合才能夠整機交付，所以有人會在……"],["賴委員士葆：能夠做系統整合的廠商沒幾家喔！"],["顧部長立雄：系統整合的廠商要去統合所有其他不管是飛控、通訊、光電、導航、抗干擾等等這些廠商，若他們有相關的能力，他們自然會依我們公告的這些規格來進行投標。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，因為我時間快到了。請回答我一個問題，我問了幾個專家，你要買的無人機21萬架裡面真正的high end，remote control這是low end，high end是自動導航，還有其他的種類，我就不細講，因為太多是技術問題。high end只有兩千架左右，其他都比較low end，怎麼樣讓臺灣的無人機產業技術升級變得非常重要，這個就是為什麼我要提無人機的產業技術升級。"],["顧部長立雄：這就是我們為什麼要提出特別預算的緣由，因為特別預算有個長單效應……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你們買的都是普通的，你們買的都是一般的無人機啊！"],["顧部長立雄：我們軍規的標準，不管剛剛所提到的飛控、通訊、光電、導航跟抗干擾上面，我們訂一個規格，這個規格我們會根據商情，逐步引導它迭代創新，這個就是長單效應，假設你今天沒有長單，你今天訂了一個規格，明年不知道有沒有，就沒有迭代創新的驅動力。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，一個特別預算或者一個無人機的發展預算各自表述，你們一定要用特別預算，我們一定要用一般預算，我們寫個主決議就解決了！我們寫個主決議，如果通過是2,400億、2,500億、2,600億，不管是多少，whatever，我們就講未來幾年一定要花這個錢就解決了，按照我們的總預算通過……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，重點就是我們一定要排紅，我們要讓廠商能夠升級，跟國際合作，藉由長單的效應，造成自主無人載具的一個共同點，這是非常重要的理念。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我請教你，美國在昨天還是前天，NDAA國防授權法在明年的時候，我們沒有10億美金了，因為他們被參議院否決了，這個事情原來2026年的時候……"],["顧部長立雄：委員，就我的了解，包括NDAA裡面的很多議題，這些不管是……"],["賴委員士葆：裡面有臺灣的10億喔！"],["顧部長立雄：他們現在所談論的相關課題，就我了解，應該跟這個是無關的，因為他們在其他的部分有爭議，NDAA所涉及的事項相當多……"],["賴委員士葆：可是不能用了。2026年他要給我們10億，叫我們買無人機、叫我們發展無人機，用這個10億，你有沒有放進來？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有叫我們要買無人機。"],["賴委員士葆：有啊、有啊！你去讀一讀條文。"],["黃司長文啓：報告委員，如果您去看一下去年在2026 NDAA裡面講的是協助我們提升軍用醫療……"],["賴委員士葆：以及無人機發展……"],["黃司長文啓：彈藥庫儲等相關事宜，沒有提到無人機啊！"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個，部長，我看到中央社的一個報導說高層官員，我相信是國防部的官員向「日經亞洲」透露，計畫從中科院替海巡署買25艘無人艇、2艘無人水下載具，為什麼不是海巡署自己買？請中科院講一下，這個事情現在是怎麼樣？"],["李院長世強：海巡是按照中科院設置條例委製給中科院來採購。"],["賴委員士葆：部長講我們要買130艘無人艇，中科院現在做了，要到明年才有protype，才有第一艘的原型艦，對不對？"],["李院長世強：protype會在今年就獲得。"],["賴委員士葆：今年也是一艘而已，量產可以……"],["李院長世強：不會只有一艘，請委員放心。"],["賴委員士葆：院長，我最後一句話，你們要注意特別預算是韌性的特別預算，到時候已經expired。最後我要重申，部長，不要糾結拘泥於是不是特別預算，要想這個錢能給你們，這個比較重要，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員。","接下來請邱議瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}