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部長您回答一下我想我們看到國民黨有一個在科技發展後面有一個叫做採購這個兩個字在他的條例裡面嘛"},{"start":236.738,"end":254.969,"text":"那關於國防的這個採購的部分我們認為如果涉及到國防軍事這個部分的話應該是要由國防部為主管機關是啊那這是第一點 第二點就是說採購的標的它既然寫採購條例那到底要採購是什麼事項"},{"start":257.35,"end":280.805,"text":"標的物是什麼 這個應該是國防部要決定嘛這個標的物採購的標的物不會是經濟部來決定嘛國防部才理解這個我們的作戰需求所以這個法 這個法令 這個條例放在經濟委員會來主審 那就很奇怪好 再講到無人載具 我們講的都是無人載具喔結果民眾黨的版本只有寫無人機喔"},{"start":282.219,"end":308.172,"text":"所以它只發展會飛的那你們還有要談到什麼自殺的無人艇啊機器狗啊等等所有這些東西都不在民眾黨黨團的這個版本裡面喔它只發展天上飛的無人機喔其他的無人載具是沒有在它的發展條例裡面的喔那這個也把它放進來這裡一併來審我也覺得這個很奇怪好 預算的額度"},{"start":310.001,"end":333.533,"text":"軍事採購的預算依照我的了解軍事採購預算不會是我一年編400億然後我今年把400億花掉今年去買然後明年呢再編400億再來買軍事預算應該不會是這樣吧你們軍事的訂單都會是長期的訂單嘛建造一個符合你們需要的無人載具不會是我今年有400億買400億明年有400億再買400億不會是這樣吧"},{"start":338.626,"end":365.512,"text":"我想這裡面有幾個問題第一個當然就是說立法院自己要通過一個條例然後來要求行政機關要怎麼編列預算然後要編多少的預算我想跟立法跟行政的權力不立原則是抵觸的我想立法機關是就是審預算不能夠去指導行政院如何編預算這是第一個 第二個就是說"},{"start":366.312,"end":391.17,"text":"在他的第16條裡面那個400億的那個項目呢他都混在一起他包括軍用無人載具的採購然後也包括軍民公用測試場域也包括產業聚落發展跟中小企業特別服務等等他把這個400億混在一起了但是我們希望由國安部主導的就國安部主管機關那麼經濟部主導就經濟部主管機關這兩個混在一起然後又要求"},{"start":391.75,"end":419.106,"text":"行政要如何編列 我想這樣子的一個一個作為會讓這個行政院包括國防部跟經濟部都會有治安來行之處而且這個條例如果按照這樣的400億到底哪些算在400億裡面那400億送過來到立法院之後那立法院自己通過的預算如果他刪掉任何一毛錢 那是不是就違法了是啊 部長所以你點到的重點啦還有另外一個部分就是說他放在公務預算裡頭每年審查對不對"},{"start":420.461,"end":423.093,"text":"今年115年的國家的總預算到現在還沒過"},{"start":424.778,"end":452.191,"text":"如果未來如果未來國防部把這個發展無人載具的預算編入公務預算你要什麼時候開始編然後什麼時候會過115年的現在已經7月7月十幾號7月快20號了今年115年的預算都還沒過那很快的明年度的預算要送進立法院了那我不知道明年度的預算什麼時候過那這個預算沒過的時候你的無人載具要不要買你要不要跟國外採購要不要訂購如何訂購"},{"start":454.452,"end":465.697,"text":"這不是一個很大的問題耶過去我通常不太同意翁小玲委員的看法但是翁小玲委員她曾經在在這個教育委員會她說立委的職責是審預算不是編預算耶"},{"start":467.52,"end":492.146,"text":"他講過幾千幾萬句的話我只同意他這一句欸立法委員的職責是審預算不是編預算欸然後你把一些完全不相干的不搭嘎的法令國防採購跟產業發展把它放在一併審理然後由主管機關變成經濟部主管機關由國防部變成經濟部荒謬至極可笑至極啊那我不知道國民黨團提出這個版本是要給誰看"},{"start":494.232,"end":522.051,"text":"是要給誰看 他們一直講說國內的無人機業者有幾百家然後呢 你只編了400億的預算幾百家的業者不是每一個都做軍用吧幾百家的業者不是每一個他的規格都能符合你國防的採購吧那你的400億是幾百家業者每一家雨露均沾每一個分一點點 分個幾千萬嗎這也不符合國防採購的需求嘛"},{"start":523.612,"end":546.979,"text":"以國際經驗來看部長我想這個您一定最清楚的美英法德日韓澳所有國家對於無人機的採購無人載具的採購都是以他們的國防部為主管機關為主責單位獨獨台灣非常的特別以經濟部來當主管機關"},{"start":551.601,"end":580.948,"text":"真的是會笑掉人家的大牙這兩位委員吼有的這樣沒特色 又走沒尾聲啦該產業發展的 我贊成產業發展經濟部要負起全責全力協助國內的無人載具的業者全力升級但是該國防採購面對到重要的國家安全的事情你不能獲悉 你不能胡搞亂搞啊"},{"start":583.22,"end":605.329,"text":"然後一堆說是博士 說是教授連基本的法條 基本的概念 基本的邏輯都搞不清楚在立法院 現在叫經濟委員會來審國防採購然後來訂定一個莫名其妙的特別條例所以部長 我想在這個部分上面 國軍需要什麼"},{"start":606.611,"end":632.784,"text":"國家的產業要引導他們往哪一個方向去這個是國防部跟經濟部應該共同去合作但是我是全力支持你們行政院提出來的國防採購特別無人載具的特別條例我希望在國家安全的這一塊上面大家都能夠全力的支持不要說面對到外賓或者是去美國拜訪的時候"},{"start":634.209,"end":653.055,"text":"美國人直接問你為什麼不支持國防採購國民黨的委員每個都講得頭頭是道啊每個人都講說他們支持國家安全啊他們支持國防啊回到立法院來完全不是那麼一回事啊部長我想這個你應該很清楚啊這是台灣現在最大的危機啊"},{"start":654.591,"end":679.155,"text":"全世界都在看台灣人怎麼樣保護台灣人台灣人對於自己的國防預算對於國防的防衛系統台灣人到底要怎麼做啊而國會就站在第一線啊所以我想這一點也要請國防部這個我們會是全力支持啦但是面對到這麼荒謬的法案審查我想就免了謝謝好 謝謝邱委員 委員"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:47.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:49.696000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請國防部長。","quality":0.556},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:50.717000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:51.617000+08:00","text":"請國防部部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:51.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:56.699000+08:00","text":"好難得有機會在經濟委員會問到國防部，我還不把握一下這個機會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:56.699000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:46:57.699000+08:00","text":"邱委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:46:56.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:47:04.791000+08:00","text":"部長，我很難得在經濟委員會可以詢問國防部。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:47:05.831000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:47:22.138000+08:00","text":"基本上，我覺得我們今天排定的議程把這三個條例草案放在一起審，並放在經濟委員會主審，我覺得這是一個非常奇怪的現象，過去在立法院，我擔任這麼久的立法委員，我從來沒有遇過這樣的狀態。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:47:24.021000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:01.621000+08:00","text":"部長，您是學法出身的，你看一下這三個法案的條文，我只先看法案名稱，第一個行政院版的是「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例」，國民黨版叫作「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例」，民眾黨是「強化國防自主及無人機產業發展條例」，單單三個法案名稱就完全不相同，基本精神完全不相同，對不對？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:01.621000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:02.482000+08:00","text":"部長，您同意我的看法嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:03.645000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:04.885000+08:00","text":"基本精神就不一樣。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:05.366000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:09.587000+08:00","text":"對，就我們國防部的部分，就是很特定的標定我們採購的內容。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:10.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:41.020000+08:00","text":"你是為了特定的無人載具，所以要有一個採購，對於產業發展這一塊並不在國防部的主責範圍之內，無人載具的產業發展是由經濟部主責，所以剛剛一直在講產業發展要協助升級，國防產業需要到什麼樣的程度，經濟部應該要去協助廠商做產業升級、做無人載具的升級，是不是這樣？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:41.020000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:42.740000+08:00","text":"這個應該是最重要的一個基本精神。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:44.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:47.583000+08:00","text":"是，經濟部也有相關的計畫在推動。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:47.583000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:48:52.325000+08:00","text":"經濟部大概是花5年的時間，會有四百多億來協助無人載具產業發展的計畫。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:48:52.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:49:12.814000+08:00","text":"我看了一下國民黨版的法案內容，剛剛賴士葆委員也好，或者是代表國民黨黨團來做提案說明的林沛祥委員也好，他們提到的部分其實我聽不太懂。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:49:13.795000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:49:44.105000+08:00","text":"國民黨版的第二條條文寫到本條例的主管機關是經濟部，國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部，又寫本條例所稱主辦機關是經濟部跟國防部，又說本條例涉及國防採購、研發補助等等，由主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:49:44.766000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:49:57.958000+08:00","text":"一個主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理，您學法的，從法律文字上面看起來是不是有很大的問題？","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:49:57.958000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:14.871000+08:00","text":"國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部，不管是從採購法也好，或者是政府對所有的預算編列也好，這顛覆了我對政府所有制度的想像。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:15.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:16.832000+08:00","text":"部長，您回答一下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:17.312000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:40.345000+08:00","text":"我們看到國民黨在科技發展後面加上「採購」兩個字在條例裡面，關於國防採購的部分，我們認為如果涉及到國防軍事的部分，應該是要由國防部為主管機關。是啊！","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:41.206000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:41.746000+08:00","text":"這是第一點。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:41.746000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:45.969000+08:00","text":"第二點，採購的標的，既然他寫採購條例，到底要採購什麼事項？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:48.350000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:53.733000+08:00","text":"標的物是什麼，這個應該是國防部要決定，採購的標的物不會是經濟部來決定嘛？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:53.874000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:50:57.436000+08:00","text":"國防部才理解我們的作戰需求。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:50:58.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:51:05.221000+08:00","text":"所以這個法令、這個條例放在經濟委員會主審就很奇怪。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:51:06.381000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:51:37.211000+08:00","text":"再講到無人載具，我們講的都是無人載具，結果民眾黨的版本只有寫無人機，所以他只發展會飛的，你們還有談到要什麼自殺無人艇、機器狗等等，所有這些東西都不在民眾黨黨團的版本裡面，他只發展天上飛的無人機，其他的無人載具是沒有在他的發展條例裡面的，這個也把它放進來這裡一併審，我也覺得很奇怪。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:51:38.571000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:51:56.549000+08:00","text":"至於預算的額度，軍事採購的預算依照我的了解，軍事採購預算不會是一年編400億，今年把400億花掉去買，明年再編400億再來買，軍事預算應該不會是這樣吧？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:51:57.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:52:04.513000+08:00","text":"你們軍事訂單都會是長期的訂單，建造一個符合你們需要的無人載具不會是今年有400億買400億、明年有400億再買400億，不會是這樣吧？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:52:10.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:52:36.012000+08:00","text":"這裡面有幾個問題，第一個，當然立法院自己通過一個條例，要求行政機關要怎麼編列預算、要編多少預算，我想這與立法、行政的權力分立原則是牴觸的，立法機關就是審預算，不能夠去指導行政院如何編預算，這是第一個。是嘛！","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:52:36.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:53:15.677000+08:00","text":"第二個，在他的第十六條裡面，400億的項目都混在一起，包括軍用無人載具的採購、軍民共用測試場域、產業聚落發展及中小企業特別扶助等等，他把這400億混在一起了，但是我們希望由國防部主導的就由國防部為主管機關，經濟部主導就由經濟部為主管機關，這兩個混在一起，又要求行政院要如何編列，我想這樣的作為會讓行政院，包括國防部跟經濟部都會有窒礙難行之處，而且這個條例如果按照這樣的400億，到底哪些算在400億裡面？","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:53:16.298000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:53:24.122000+08:00","text":"400億送過來到立法院之後，立法院自己通過的預算，如果他刪掉任何一毛錢是不是就違法了？是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:53:24.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:53:25.723000+08:00","text":"部長，所以你點到重點了。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:53:26.023000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:53:44.522000+08:00","text":"還有另外一個部分，他放在公務預算裡頭每年審查，今年115年的國家總預算到現在還沒過，如果未來國防部把發展無人載具的預算編入公務預算，你要什麼時候開始編？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:53:44.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:53:46.903000+08:00","text":"什麼時候會過？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:53:46.903000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:01.430000+08:00","text":"115年的預算現在已經7月十幾號，7月快20號了，今年115年的預算都還沒過，很快的，明年度的預算要送進立法院了，我不知道明年度的預算什麼時候過，這個預算沒過的時候，你的無人載具要不要買？","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:01.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:02.911000+08:00","text":"你要不要跟國外採購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:02.911000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:03.151000+08:00","text":"要不要訂購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:03.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:03.191000+08:00","text":"如何訂購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:05.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:06.613000+08:00","text":"這是一個很大的問題。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:07.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:16.596000+08:00","text":"過去我通常不太同意翁曉玲委員的看法，但是翁曉玲委員曾經在教育委員會說立委的職責是審預算，不是編預算。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:19.200000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:24.281000+08:00","text":"她講過幾千、幾萬句話，我只同意她這一句，立法委員的職責是審預算，不是編預算。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:25.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:38.845000+08:00","text":"把一些完全不相干、不搭軋的法令，把國防採購跟產業發展放在一起一併審理，主管機關由國防部變成經濟部，荒謬至極！","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:38.845000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:39.685000+08:00","text":"可笑至極！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:40.685000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:43.126000+08:00","text":"我不知道國民黨黨團提出這個版本是要給誰看？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:46.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:54:56.540000+08:00","text":"他們一直講國內的無人機業者有幾百家，卻只編了400億的預算，幾百家業者不是每一個都做軍用吧！","quality":0.975},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:54:58.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:55:02.884000+08:00","text":"幾百家業者不是每一個規格都能符合國防的採購吧！","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:55:04.405000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:55:10.749000+08:00","text":"你的400億是幾百家業者每一家雨露均霑，每一個分一點點、分個幾千萬嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:55:10.749000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:55:13.031000+08:00","text":"這樣不符合國防採購的需求嘛！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:55:14.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:55:48.742000+08:00","text":"以國際經驗來看，部長，我想您一定最清楚，美、英、法、德、日、韓、澳等所有國家對於無人機、無人載具的採購都是以他們的國防部為主管機關、主責單位，獨獨臺灣非常特別，以經濟部來當主管機關，真的會笑掉人家的大牙，立法委員有的「毋捌字閣兼無衛生」。","quality":0.891},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:55:53.944000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:56:03.926000+08:00","text":"該產業發展的，我贊成產業發展，經濟部要負起權責，全力協助國內的無人載具業者全力升級。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:56:03.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:56:11.928000+08:00","text":"但是國防採購，面對重要的國家安全的事情，你不能和稀泥，不能胡搞亂搞啊！","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:56:14.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:56:29.826000+08:00","text":"一堆說是博士、說是教授，連基本的法條、基本的概念、基本的邏輯都搞不清楚，在立法院現在叫經濟委員會來審國防採購，然後訂定一個莫名其妙的特別條例。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:56:31.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:56:58.581000+08:00","text":"部長，我想在這個部分，國軍需要什麼、國家的產業要引導他們往哪一個方向去，這是國防部跟經濟部應該共同合作，但是我是全力支持行政院提出的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例，我希望在國家安全這一塊上，大家都能夠全力支持。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:56:59.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:09.810000+08:00","text":"不要說面對外賓或者是去美國拜訪的時候，美國人直接問你為什麼不支持國防採購？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:09.810000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:18.813000+08:00","text":"國民黨的委員每個都講得頭頭是道，每個都說他們支持國家安全、他們支持國防，回到立法院來完全不是那麼一回事。","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:20.274000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:35.601000+08:00","text":"部長，我想這個你應該很清楚，這是臺灣現在最大的危機，全世界都在看臺灣人怎麼樣保護臺灣人，臺灣人對於自己的國防預算、對於國防的防衛系統，臺灣人到底要怎麼做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"邱委員議瑩","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:36.342000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:47.052000+08:00","text":"而國會就站在第一線，所以我想這一點也要請國防部……我們會全力支持，但是面對到這麼荒謬的法案審查，我想就免了。謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:47.052000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:50.135000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝委員。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:50.635000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:52.635000+08:00","text":"謝謝邱議瑩委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:52.935000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:56.077857+08:00","text":"接下來請賴瑞隆委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":344,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時46分）謝謝主席，請國防部長。"],["主席：請國防部部長。"],["邱委員議瑩：好難得有機會在經濟委員會問到國防部，我還不把握一下這個機會！"],["顧部長立雄：邱委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我很難得在經濟委員會可以詢問國防部。基本上，我覺得我們今天排定的議程把這三個條例草案放在一起審，並放在經濟委員會主審，我覺得這是一個非常奇怪的現象，過去在立法院，我擔任這麼久的立法委員，我從來沒有遇過這樣的狀態。","部長，您是學法出身的，你看一下這三個法案的條文，我只先看法案名稱，第一個行政院版的是「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例」，國民黨版叫作「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例」，民眾黨是「強化國防自主及無人機產業發展條例」，單單三個法案名稱就完全不相同，基本精神完全不相同，對不對？部長，您同意我的看法嗎？基本精神就不一樣。"],["顧部長立雄：對，就我們國防部的部分，就是很特定的標定我們採購的內容。"],["邱委員議瑩：你是為了特定的無人載具，所以要有一個採購，對於產業發展這一塊並不在國防部的主責範圍之內，無人載具的產業發展是由經濟部主責，所以剛剛一直在講產業發展要協助升級，國防產業需要到什麼樣的程度，經濟部應該要去協助廠商做產業升級、做無人載具的升級，是不是這樣？這個應該是最重要的一個基本精神。"],["顧部長立雄：是，經濟部也有相關的計畫在推動。"],["邱委員議瑩：經濟部大概是花5年的時間，會有四百多億來協助無人載具產業發展的計畫。我看了一下國民黨版的法案內容，剛剛賴士葆委員也好，或者是代表國民黨黨團來做提案說明的林沛祥委員也好，他們提到的部分其實我聽不太懂。國民黨版的第二條條文寫到本條例的主管機關是經濟部，國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部，又寫本條例所稱主辦機關是經濟部跟國防部，又說本條例涉及國防採購、研發補助等等，由主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理。一個主管機關會同國防部及有關主管機關共同辦理，您學法的，從法律文字上面看起來是不是有很大的問題？國防自主的採購主管機關是經濟部，不管是從採購法也好，或者是政府對所有的預算編列也好，這顛覆了我對政府所有制度的想像。部長，您回答一下。"],["顧部長立雄：我們看到國民黨在科技發展後面加上「採購」兩個字在條例裡面，關於國防採購的部分，我們認為如果涉及到國防軍事的部分，應該是要由國防部為主管機關。"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！"],["顧部長立雄：這是第一點。第二點，採購的標的，既然他寫採購條例，到底要採購什麼事項？"],["邱委員議瑩：標的物是什麼，這個應該是國防部要決定，採購的標的物不會是經濟部來決定嘛？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部才理解我們的作戰需求。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以這個法令、這個條例放在經濟委員會主審就很奇怪。再講到無人載具，我們講的都是無人載具，結果民眾黨的版本只有寫無人機，所以他只發展會飛的，你們還有談到要什麼自殺無人艇、機器狗等等，所有這些東西都不在民眾黨黨團的版本裡面，他只發展天上飛的無人機，其他的無人載具是沒有在他的發展條例裡面的，這個也把它放進來這裡一併審，我也覺得很奇怪。至於預算的額度，軍事採購的預算依照我的了解，軍事採購預算不會是一年編400億，今年把400億花掉去買，明年再編400億再來買，軍事預算應該不會是這樣吧？你們軍事訂單都會是長期的訂單，建造一個符合你們需要的無人載具不會是今年有400億買400億、明年有400億再買400億，不會是這樣吧？"],["顧部長立雄：這裡面有幾個問題，第一個，當然立法院自己通過一個條例，要求行政機關要怎麼編列預算、要編多少預算，我想這與立法、行政的權力分立原則是牴觸的，立法機關就是審預算，不能夠去指導行政院如何編預算，這是第一個。"],["邱委員議瑩：是嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：第二個，在他的第十六條裡面，400億的項目都混在一起，包括軍用無人載具的採購、軍民共用測試場域、產業聚落發展及中小企業特別扶助等等，他把這400億混在一起了，但是我們希望由國防部主導的就由國防部為主管機關，經濟部主導就由經濟部為主管機關，這兩個混在一起，又要求行政院要如何編列，我想這樣的作為會讓行政院，包括國防部跟經濟部都會有窒礙難行之處，而且這個條例如果按照這樣的400億，到底哪些算在400億裡面？400億送過來到立法院之後，立法院自己通過的預算，如果他刪掉任何一毛錢是不是就違法了？"],["邱委員議瑩：是啊！部長，所以你點到重點了。還有另外一個部分，他放在公務預算裡頭每年審查，今年115年的國家總預算到現在還沒過，如果未來國防部把發展無人載具的預算編入公務預算，你要什麼時候開始編？什麼時候會過？115年的預算現在已經7月十幾號，7月快20號了，今年115年的預算都還沒過，很快的，明年度的預算要送進立法院了，我不知道明年度的預算什麼時候過，這個預算沒過的時候，你的無人載具要不要買？你要不要跟國外採購？要不要訂購？如何訂購？這是一個很大的問題。","過去我通常不太同意翁曉玲委員的看法，但是翁曉玲委員曾經在教育委員會說立委的職責是審預算，不是編預算。她講過幾千、幾萬句話，我只同意她這一句，立法委員的職責是審預算，不是編預算。把一些完全不相干、不搭軋的法令，把國防採購跟產業發展放在一起一併審理，主管機關由國防部變成經濟部，荒謬至極！可笑至極！我不知道國民黨黨團提出這個版本是要給誰看？他們一直講國內的無人機業者有幾百家，卻只編了400億的預算，幾百家業者不是每一個都做軍用吧！幾百家業者不是每一個規格都能符合國防的採購吧！你的400億是幾百家業者每一家雨露均霑，每一個分一點點、分個幾千萬嗎？這樣不符合國防採購的需求嘛！","以國際經驗來看，部長，我想您一定最清楚，美、英、法、德、日、韓、澳等所有國家對於無人機、無人載具的採購都是以他們的國防部為主管機關、主責單位，獨獨臺灣非常特別，以經濟部來當主管機關，真的會笑掉人家的大牙，立法委員有的「毋捌字閣兼無衛生」。該產業發展的，我贊成產業發展，經濟部要負起權責，全力協助國內的無人載具業者全力升級。但是國防採購，面對重要的國家安全的事情，你不能和稀泥，不能胡搞亂搞啊！一堆說是博士、說是教授，連基本的法條、基本的概念、基本的邏輯都搞不清楚，在立法院現在叫經濟委員會來審國防採購，然後訂定一個莫名其妙的特別條例。","部長，我想在這個部分，國軍需要什麼、國家的產業要引導他們往哪一個方向去，這是國防部跟經濟部應該共同合作，但是我是全力支持行政院提出的國防自主無人載具採購特別條例，我希望在國家安全這一塊上，大家都能夠全力支持。不要說面對外賓或者是去美國拜訪的時候，美國人直接問你為什麼不支持國防採購？國民黨的委員每個都講得頭頭是道，每個都說他們支持國家安全、他們支持國防，回到立法院來完全不是那麼一回事。部長，我想這個你應該很清楚，這是臺灣現在最大的危機，全世界都在看臺灣人怎麼樣保護臺灣人，臺灣人對於自己的國防預算、對於國防的防衛系統，臺灣人到底要怎麼做？而國會就站在第一線，所以我想這一點也要請國防部……我們會全力支持，但是面對到這麼荒謬的法案審查，我想就免了。謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","接下來請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}