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請顧部長請國安部顧部長 謝謝部長我先請教一下今天有媒體來報導說這個文載具得條例的審查那中共北京那邊有主動提出了三個原則也就是以民代軍實成彈性跟釋出公義念的機會部長有聽過這樣的消息嗎我想我也是看新聞"},{"start":33.918,"end":50.826,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的擔憂我因為也是從新聞報導上面看到這個新聞沒有辦法現在進一步有任何的我請教一下部長以無人居這幾年的發展的趨勢無人載具的趨勢的話這應該對台灣來說我們投入這些預算應該是一個多贏的這個部長認同吧"},{"start":57.149,"end":80.851,"text":"對,我們就是以這個長單的一個需求來帶動一個我們自主產業鏈的一個規模跟升級對國軍、對產業都是好事嘛,對不對對,挖鏈符合我們的戰略需求然後形成一個自主供應鏈,然後在暫時可以隨時擴產所以基本上它是一個多贏的方案,那有誰會不高興然後產業能夠升級部長,那你認為有誰會不高興我想"},{"start":85.54,"end":107.745,"text":"因為基於我們做形成這個不對稱戰力對於台海的防衛作戰有一個重大的一個效益所以我想北京當然會很憂心對,所以北京中共是會不高興的想要阻止破壞這件事情是中共嘛所以他今天有提到說他想要爭取足夠的空間而且擔心我們的無人載具、無人機這個壞的"},{"start":108.985,"end":132.145,"text":"大陸多年苦心經營的台海的優勢所以如果我們用這種不對稱的戰力無人載具的話會讓台灣得到更大的一個安全上的保證嗎 是吧是 在防衛作案上面我想我們用小的代價就會得到很重大效果而讓中共不敢輕舉妄動不敢整個對台灣任何的一個侵略的行動 是吧我想在俄烏戰爭"},{"start":135.447,"end":155.439,"text":"打到現在 我想已經可以看得很清楚了無人載具整個改變了戰爭的形態所以這也是北京中共最擔憂的所以他當然會想盡各種方法讓你台灣 讓你的國防部讓你不能夠取得無人載具讓你沒有這樣的能量那他才能爭取到更多的空間對台灣施壓的空間 甚至劇烈台灣的空間 是吧"},{"start":156.379,"end":183.507,"text":"對 因為尤其我們必須透過這樣子的一個特別預算來帶動一個我們軍規要求的比較特殊的這些我們國內可能還需要跟國外再來進一步合作不管是飛控、通訊、光電導航、看干擾能力等等這些我想都需要再進一步所以我們的軍貨預算一個非紅供應鏈不要仰賴中國然後也能夠打入國際供應鏈然後又能夠自主產能"},{"start":184.227,"end":207.89,"text":"所以這就是我講的多贏嘛 這是一個多贏的方案嘛其實國際跟國防部跟產業界都會支持 台灣人民也會支持所以我們不理解為什麼在當時我們的軍國預算4700億被刪掉把無人載具的刪掉 這是毫無理由的因為它對台灣的安全是好的唯一會不高興的就是中共而已 但是竟然會被刪掉了所以為什麼會有這樣的說法出來 就是說"},{"start":208.53,"end":234.204,"text":"以民代軍 現在看來這樣的草案裡面看起來在野黨的版本是以民代軍啊 部長是嗎其實我不是很清楚所謂以民代軍的意思是什麼 如果說是對於我們的軍事面的一個作戰需求 要求要降低的話我們國防部是沒有辦法接受 我們國防部就是希望能夠不斷的提升我的認知 以民代軍就是"},{"start":235.345,"end":251.625,"text":"像這樣的無人載具的部分以民間發展為優先啦不要國防部 國防不要用啦不要國防用 不要軍用啦我們就是希望我們是最大的一個需求單位嘛所以我們國防的作戰的需求有一定的一個規格的要求"},{"start":252.105,"end":275.95,"text":"那這些規格的要求就是能夠帶動產業升級所以這對台灣才是重要的嘛因為每一個都是要經過實際的一個實際的測試的嘛那唯有國防部重視支持的時候世界才會信任台灣的這些產業能力同時間當我們有20萬架的無人機的時候我們才能夠確保台海的和平嘛所以這個方向絕對是正確誰會不高興 中共會不高興包括石城"},{"start":276.89,"end":291.652,"text":"彈性他希望時程能夠拉長一點對我們來說如果能夠現在趕快用特別預算直接能夠立即來做處理的話那台灣能夠最快時間去取得這20萬架的無人機的話無人載具的話對台灣當然是最安全的保障吧部長同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":292.332,"end":313.757,"text":"對,我想是這樣,因為我們無人載具,國內有一定的量,因為國內的這些半導體的產業,特別在硬體的部分,我們有很大的優勢,那所以在軟體的部分,我們跟國外能夠來進行合作,那產業升起,然後迭代創新,我想這也本身就是一個很重要的一個"},{"start":313.937,"end":334.803,"text":"這是最好的方案啦因為我們現在的業者需要的是訂單而國防部也需要國防部給了大量的一個機會的時候我們的業者就能夠在這些訂單中去增強我們的實力打上國際盃同時間我們國防部也能取得更多無人載具的能量的時候我們更能確保我們台灣的和平所以這個絕對是一個多贏的方案所以我不解為什麼會有"},{"start":335.683,"end":355.813,"text":"所以今天包括釋出供應鏈的機會在我看來就是要打掉非紅供應鏈這件事情但是現在已經很明確我們絕對是跟美國的民主友邦站在一起我們怎麼可能在這件事情上是跟一個獨裁專制的國家站在一起對 非紅供應鏈是我們這一次提出特別預算用這個長單索就要達到一個非常非常重要的一個目的因為"},{"start":356.833,"end":376.003,"text":"現在畢竟在民用的部分中國的無人機佔了相當大的市場現在世界各國都在國防的運用上面都已經體認到在這一點不能夠去依賴中國的這些不管是關鍵民主建或者是相關的這些揮控或者通訊模組等等"},{"start":376.403,"end":397.582,"text":"那所以大家都要採取這一個去紅化的產生的民主供應鏈那我們在這個民主供應鏈上面我們必須要佔有一席之地佔有一席之地那就是要跟這些理念價值相近的國家來共同合作是 部長我再問吼無人載具重不重要無人機無人艦這個未來發展重不重要"},{"start":399.099,"end":412.958,"text":"就我們國防部立場對防衛作戰有非常的一個在不對稱作戰能力的建構上具有非港高度的重要性非常高度的重要性那我問你一下台灣在五人採聚這一塊的能力是不是也得到肯定"},{"start":414.503,"end":433.162,"text":"我想無人載具因為它不斷地迭代創新最主要就是說它可能幾個月前是一種能力對不對那幾個月後又是一種能力的進展那這個我們國內有一定的基礎這也就是我們所以能夠發展的一個"},{"start":433.823,"end":458.522,"text":"部長這兩年快速的發展我們的訂單快速的成長所以這個也看得出來我們其實有很強的一個能力那我也希望大家應該共同來支持啦如果我剛剛講過特別預算才能夠達到最大的一個效果我相信國人都是支持的國人都支持這也是個多贏的那如果採年度預算其實大家已經講到非常多了它涉及到了排擠的效應涉及到能不能定期的編列出來"},{"start":459.302,"end":483.175,"text":"業界也擔憂甚至可能影響到其他的育兒甚至老農甚至治水的經費這都會影響到甚至騎乘都會受影響這就是老共所希望的所以我們希望各界應該共同朝野應該共同來支持刑罪的版本支持國防部我想這才是一個忠於人民忠於國家的一個做法部長認同嗎是好我們希望朝野應該共同來忠於國家忠於人民好謝謝好謝謝偉好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:56.924000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:57:57.945000+08:00","text":"謝謝召委，請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T09:57:57.945000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:05.067000+08:00","text":"請國防部顧部長，謝謝。部長。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:05.067000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:06.067000+08:00","text":"賴委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:05.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:24.475000+08:00","text":"我先請教一下，今天有媒體報導無人載具條例的審查，中共北京主動提出了3個原則，也就是以民代軍、時程彈性與釋出供應鏈機會，部長有聽過這樣的消息嗎？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:24.735000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:25.356000+08:00","text":"我也是看新聞。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:26.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:27.799000+08:00","text":"部長有沒有這樣的擔憂？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:31.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:38.304000+08:00","text":"因為我也是從新聞報導上面看到這則新聞，現在沒有辦法進一步有任何證實。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:39.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:58:43.806000+08:00","text":"我請教部長，以無人機、無人載具這幾年發展的趨勢，對臺灣來說，我們投入這些預算應該是一個多贏的方案，部長認同吧？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:58:50.149000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:00.138000+08:00","text":"對，我們就是以長單的需求帶動我們自主產業鏈的規模與升級。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:00.138000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:02.420000+08:00","text":"對國軍、對產業都是好事嘛，對不對？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:02.420000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:03.420000+08:00","text":"包括跟世界民主國家……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:02.420000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:07.585000+08:00","text":"對，一方面符合我們的作戰需求，形成一個自主供應鏈，戰時可以隨時擴產……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:07.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:11.088000+08:00","text":"所以基本上它是一個多贏的方案，誰會不高興？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:11.088000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:12.529000+08:00","text":"然業產業能夠升級。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:12.529000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:13.771000+08:00","text":"部長，你認為有誰會不高興？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:18.540000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:30.062000+08:00","text":"因為基於我們形成不對稱戰力，對於臺海防衛作戰有一個重大的效益，所以我想北京當然會很憂心。對。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:30.062000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:34.383000+08:00","text":"所以北京、中共是會不高興的，想要阻止、破壞這件事情的是中共嘛！","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:34.803000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:44.747000+08:00","text":"所以他今天有提到他想要爭取足夠的空間，而且也擔心我們的無人載具、無人機壞了大陸多年苦心經營的臺海優勢。","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:44.747000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:53.315000+08:00","text":"所以如果我們用這種不對稱戰力、無人載具的話，會讓臺灣得到更大安全上的保證，是吧？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:53.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T09:59:55.016000+08:00","text":"在防衛作戰上面，我想……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T09:59:55.196000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:03.884000+08:00","text":"我們用小的代價就會得到很重大的效果，讓中共不敢輕舉妄動、不敢對臺灣有任何侵略行動，是吧？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:05.125000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:13.550000+08:00","text":"俄烏戰爭打到現在，已經可以看得很清楚了，無人載具整個改變了戰爭的型態。","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:13.550000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:29.379000+08:00","text":"所以這也是北京、中共最擔憂的，他當然會想盡各種方法讓臺灣、讓你的國防部不能夠取得無人載具、讓你沒有這樣的能量，他才能爭取到更多空間、對臺灣施壓的空間，甚至是侵略臺灣的空間，是吧？對。","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:29.599000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:47.324000+08:00","text":"尤其我們必須透過這樣的特別預算，帶動我們軍規要求比較特殊的這些項目，國內可能還需要跟國外再進一步合作，不管是飛控、通訊、光電、導航、抗干擾能力等等，這些我想都需要再進一步……","quality":0.961},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:47.504000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:48.805000+08:00","text":"所以我們的軍購預算……","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:49.005000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:56.487000+08:00","text":"來產生一個非紅供應鏈，不要仰賴中國，能夠打入國際供應鏈，又能夠自主產能……","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:00:57.227000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:00:59.930000+08:00","text":"所以這就是我講的多贏，這是一個多贏的方案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:00.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:18.047000+08:00","text":"其實國際、國防部跟產業界都會支持，臺灣人民也會支持，我們不理解為什麼在當時我們的軍購預算把無人載具4,700億刪掉，這是毫無理由的，因為它對臺灣的安全是好的，唯一會不高興就是中共而已，但是竟然會被刪掉。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:18.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:20.269000+08:00","text":"所以為什麼會有這樣的說法？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:20.729000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:26.473000+08:00","text":"就是以民代軍，現在這樣的草案裡面，看起來在野黨的版本是以民代軍。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:26.833000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:30.115000+08:00","text":"部長，是嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:30.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:44.543000+08:00","text":"其實我不是很清楚所謂以民代軍的意思是什麼，如果是對我們軍事面的作戰需求要求要降低，我們國防部沒有辦法接受，國防部就是希望能夠不斷提升……","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:44.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:01:54.853000+08:00","text":"就我的認知，以民代軍就是像無人載具的部分，以民間發展為優先，國防不要用、不要軍用啦。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:01:57.116000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:07.726000+08:00","text":"我們是最大的一個需求單位，所以我們國防的作戰需求有一定規格的要求，這些規格的要求就是能夠帶動產業升級。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:08.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:19.368000+08:00","text":"這對臺灣才是重要的，因為每一個都要經過實際的測試，唯有國防部重視、支持的時候，世界才會信任臺灣的這些產業能力。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:19.708000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:26.469000+08:00","text":"同時間，當我們有20萬架無人機的時候，我們才能夠確保臺海的和平，所以這個方向絕對是正確的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:26.469000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:26.949000+08:00","text":"誰會不高興？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:26.949000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:32.094000+08:00","text":"中共會不高興，包括時程、彈性，他希望時程能夠拉長一點。","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:32.094000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:02:44.632000+08:00","text":"對我們來說，如果現在能夠趕快用特別預算立即處理，臺灣能夠最快時間去取得這20萬架的無人機、無人載具，對臺灣當然是最安全的保障，部長同意這樣的看法吧？","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:02:45.332000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:06.757000+08:00","text":"對，因為無人載具，國內有一定的量，國內的這些半導體產業，特別在硬體的部分，我們有很大的優勢，所以在軟體的部分，我們跟國外如果能夠進行合作，產業升級，迭代創新，我想這本身就是很重要的一個……","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:06.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:11.898000+08:00","text":"這是最好的方案，因為我們現在的業者需要的是訂單，而國防部也需要。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:12.639000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:19.581000+08:00","text":"國防部給了大量的機會，我們的業者就能夠在這些訂單中增強我們的實力，打上國際盃。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:19.581000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:26.622000+08:00","text":"同時間，國防部取得更多無人載具的能量時，更能確保我們臺灣的和平，所以這個絕對是一個多贏的方案。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:27.363000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:33.665000+08:00","text":"我不解為什麼會有……今天包括釋出供應鏈的機會，在我看來就是要打掉非紅供應鏈這件事情。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:34.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:41.889000+08:00","text":"但是現在已經很明確，我們絕對是跟美國的民主友邦站在一起，我們怎麼可能在這件事情上跟一個獨裁專制的國家站在一起？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:42.490000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:03:56.396000+08:00","text":"對，非紅供應鏈是我們這一次提出特別預算，用長單要達到的一個非常非常重要的目的，因為現在畢竟在民用的部分，中國的無人機占了相當大的市場。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:03:56.396000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:14.127000+08:00","text":"現在世界各國在國防的運用上都已經體認到這一點，不能夠依賴中國這些不管是關鍵零組件，或者是相關飛控或者通訊模組等等，所以大家都要採取去紅化產生的民主供應鏈。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:14.348000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:24.277000+08:00","text":"在這個民主供應鏈上面，我們必須要占有一席之地，要占有一席之地，那就是要跟這些理念價值相近的國家共同合作。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:24.397000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:27.360000+08:00","text":"是，部長，我再問，無人載具重不重要？","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:27.920000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:30.562000+08:00","text":"無人機、無人艦未來的發展重不重要？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:32.099000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:40.711000+08:00","text":"就我們國防部的立場，對於防衛作戰在不對稱作戰能力的建構上面具有非常高度的重要性。","quality":0.895},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:40.991000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:41.993000+08:00","text":"非常高度的重要性。","quality":1},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:42.594000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:45.938000+08:00","text":"我問你，臺灣在無人載具這一塊的能力是不是也得到肯定？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:04:47.503000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:04:59.055000+08:00","text":"我想無人載具因為不斷迭代創新，最主要就是它可能幾個月前是一種能力，幾個月後又是一種能力的進展。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:01.237000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:06.162000+08:00","text":"我們國內有一定的基礎，這也就是我們之所以能夠發展的一個……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:06.823000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:16.670000+08:00","text":"部長，這兩年快速發展，我們的訂單快速成長，也看得出來我們其實有很強的能力，我也希望大家其實應該共同支持。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:18.252000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:24.797000+08:00","text":"我剛剛講過特別預算才能夠達到最大的效果，我相信國人都是支持的，這也是個多贏的方案。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:25.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:40.587000+08:00","text":"如果採年度預算，其實大家已經講得非常多了，它會涉及排擠的效應，涉及能不能定期的編列出來，業界也擔憂甚至可能影響到其他的育兒，甚至老農，甚至治水的經費，這都會影響到，甚至期程都會受影響，這就是老共所希望的。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:41.067000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:51.732000+08:00","text":"所以我們希望各界、朝野都應該共同支持行政院的版本，支持國防部，我想這才是一個忠於人民、忠於國家的做法，部長認同嗎？是。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"賴委員瑞隆","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:53.073000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:56.035000+08:00","text":"我們希望朝野應該共同來忠於國家、忠於人民，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:56.155000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:56.155000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:56.655000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:05:58.655000+08:00","text":"謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","quality":0.286},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:05:58.955000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:01.812143+08:00","text":"接下來有請林岱樺委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":370,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時57分）謝謝召委，請顧部長。"],["主席：請國防部顧部長，謝謝。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長。"],["顧部長立雄：賴委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我先請教一下，今天有媒體報導無人載具條例的審查，中共北京主動提出了3個原則，也就是以民代軍、時程彈性與釋出供應鏈機會，部長有聽過這樣的消息嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我也是看新聞。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長有沒有這樣的擔憂？"],["顧部長立雄：因為我也是從新聞報導上面看到這則新聞，現在沒有辦法進一步有任何證實。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我請教部長，以無人機、無人載具這幾年發展的趨勢，對臺灣來說，我們投入這些預算應該是一個多贏的方案，部長認同吧？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們就是以長單的需求帶動我們自主產業鏈的規模與升級。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對國軍、對產業都是好事嘛，對不對？包括跟世界民主國家……"],["顧部長立雄：對，一方面符合我們的作戰需求，形成一個自主供應鏈，戰時可以隨時擴產……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以基本上它是一個多贏的方案，誰會不高興？"],["顧部長立雄：然業產業能夠升級。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，你認為有誰會不高興？"],["顧部長立雄：因為基於我們形成不對稱戰力，對於臺海防衛作戰有一個重大的效益，所以我想北京當然會很憂心。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對。所以北京、中共是會不高興的，想要阻止、破壞這件事情的是中共嘛！所以他今天有提到他想要爭取足夠的空間，而且也擔心我們的無人載具、無人機壞了大陸多年苦心經營的臺海優勢。所以如果我們用這種不對稱戰力、無人載具的話，會讓臺灣得到更大安全上的保證，是吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。在防衛作戰上面，我想……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們用小的代價就會得到很重大的效果，讓中共不敢輕舉妄動、不敢對臺灣有任何侵略行動，是吧？"],["顧部長立雄：俄烏戰爭打到現在，已經可以看得很清楚了，無人載具整個改變了戰爭的型態。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這也是北京、中共最擔憂的，他當然會想盡各種方法讓臺灣、讓你的國防部不能夠取得無人載具、讓你沒有這樣的能量，他才能爭取到更多空間、對臺灣施壓的空間，甚至是侵略臺灣的空間，是吧？"],["顧部長立雄：對。尤其我們必須透過這樣的特別預算，帶動我們軍規要求比較特殊的這些項目，國內可能還需要跟國外再進一步合作，不管是飛控、通訊、光電、導航、抗干擾能力等等，這些我想都需要再進一步……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我們的軍購預算……"],["顧部長立雄：來產生一個非紅供應鏈，不要仰賴中國，能夠打入國際供應鏈，又能夠自主產能……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這就是我講的多贏，這是一個多贏的方案。其實國際、國防部跟產業界都會支持，臺灣人民也會支持，我們不理解為什麼在當時我們的軍購預算把無人載具4,700億刪掉，這是毫無理由的，因為它對臺灣的安全是好的，唯一會不高興就是中共而已，但是竟然會被刪掉。所以為什麼會有這樣的說法？就是以民代軍，現在這樣的草案裡面，看起來在野黨的版本是以民代軍。部長，是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：其實我不是很清楚所謂以民代軍的意思是什麼，如果是對我們軍事面的作戰需求要求要降低，我們國防部沒有辦法接受，國防部就是希望能夠不斷提升……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就我的認知，以民代軍就是像無人載具的部分，以民間發展為優先，國防不要用、不要軍用啦。"],["顧部長立雄：我們是最大的一個需求單位，所以我們國防的作戰需求有一定規格的要求，這些規格的要求就是能夠帶動產業升級。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這對臺灣才是重要的，因為每一個都要經過實際的測試，唯有國防部重視、支持的時候，世界才會信任臺灣的這些產業能力。同時間，當我們有20萬架無人機的時候，我們才能夠確保臺海的和平，所以這個方向絕對是正確的。誰會不高興？中共會不高興，包括時程、彈性，他希望時程能夠拉長一點。對我們來說，如果現在能夠趕快用特別預算立即處理，臺灣能夠最快時間去取得這20萬架的無人機、無人載具，對臺灣當然是最安全的保障，部長同意這樣的看法吧？"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為無人載具，國內有一定的量，國內的這些半導體產業，特別在硬體的部分，我們有很大的優勢，所以在軟體的部分，我們跟國外如果能夠進行合作，產業升級，迭代創新，我想這本身就是很重要的一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是最好的方案，因為我們現在的業者需要的是訂單，而國防部也需要。國防部給了大量的機會，我們的業者就能夠在這些訂單中增強我們的實力，打上國際盃。同時間，國防部取得更多無人載具的能量時，更能確保我們臺灣的和平，所以這個絕對是一個多贏的方案。我不解為什麼會有……今天包括釋出供應鏈的機會，在我看來就是要打掉非紅供應鏈這件事情。但是現在已經很明確，我們絕對是跟美國的民主友邦站在一起，我們怎麼可能在這件事情上跟一個獨裁專制的國家站在一起？"],["顧部長立雄：對，非紅供應鏈是我們這一次提出特別預算，用長單要達到的一個非常非常重要的目的，因為現在畢竟在民用的部分，中國的無人機占了相當大的市場。現在世界各國在國防的運用上都已經體認到這一點，不能夠依賴中國這些不管是關鍵零組件，或者是相關飛控或者通訊模組等等，所以大家都要採取去紅化產生的民主供應鏈。在這個民主供應鏈上面，我們必須要占有一席之地，要占有一席之地，那就是要跟這些理念價值相近的國家共同合作。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是，部長，我再問，無人載具重不重要？無人機、無人艦未來的發展重不重要？"],["顧部長立雄：就我們國防部的立場，對於防衛作戰在不對稱作戰能力的建構上面具有非常高度的重要性。"],["賴委員瑞隆：非常高度的重要性。我問你，臺灣在無人載具這一塊的能力是不是也得到肯定？"],["顧部長立雄：我想無人載具因為不斷迭代創新，最主要就是它可能幾個月前是一種能力，幾個月後又是一種能力的進展。我們國內有一定的基礎，這也就是我們之所以能夠發展的一個……"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這兩年快速發展，我們的訂單快速成長，也看得出來我們其實有很強的能力，我也希望大家其實應該共同支持。我剛剛講過特別預算才能夠達到最大的效果，我相信國人都是支持的，這也是個多贏的方案。如果採年度預算，其實大家已經講得非常多了，它會涉及排擠的效應，涉及能不能定期的編列出來，業界也擔憂甚至可能影響到其他的育兒，甚至老農，甚至治水的經費，這都會影響到，甚至期程都會受影響，這就是老共所希望的。所以我們希望各界、朝野都應該共同支持行政院的版本，支持國防部，我想這才是一個忠於人民、忠於國家的做法，部長認同嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望朝野應該共同來忠於國家、忠於人民，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來有請林岱樺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}