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10:06:01","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.54096875,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.61659375,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.40471875,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.92534375,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.794093750000002,"end":30.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.81096875,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.56159375,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.50659375,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.37534375,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.15159375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.96471875,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.10534375,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.51034375,"end":65.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.57346875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.30721875,"end":75.58034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.07409375,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.13284375,"end":79.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.74846875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.03534375000001,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.17846875000001,"end":83.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.50284375000001,"end":91.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.81409375000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.53534375000001,"end":94.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.18909375000001,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.74159375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.75846875,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.43409375,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.53534375000001,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.94034375000001,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.95721875000001,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.91909375,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.53784375,"end":131.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":133.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.96346875,"end":140.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.48159375,"end":155.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.60159375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.92221875,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.89971875,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.45096875000002,"end":176.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.10346875000002,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.70596875,"end":211.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.50846875000002,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.04346875000002,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.04534375,"end":232.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.56846875000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.23471875,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.30534375000002,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.32221875000002,"end":254.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.37284375000002,"end":243.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.30909375000002,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.67471875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.61034375,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.81659375000004,"end":295.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.56284375,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.97034375000004,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":349.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.07346875,"end":356.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.61659375000005,"end":386.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.82284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請顧部長請國安部顧部長 謝謝部長我先請教一下今天有媒體來報導說這個文載具得條例的審查那中共北京那邊有主動提出了三個原則也就是以民代軍實成彈性跟釋出公義念的機會部長有聽過這樣的消息嗎我想我也是看新聞"},{"start":33.918,"end":50.826,"text":"部長有沒有這樣的擔憂我因為也是從新聞報導上面看到這個新聞沒有辦法現在進一步有任何的我請教一下部長以無人居這幾年的發展的趨勢無人載具的趨勢的話這應該對台灣來說我們投入這些預算應該是一個多贏的這個部長認同吧"},{"start":57.149,"end":80.851,"text":"對,我們就是以這個長單的一個需求來帶動一個我們自主產業鏈的一個規模跟升級對國軍、對產業都是好事嘛,對不對對,挖鏈符合我們的戰略需求然後形成一個自主供應鏈,然後在暫時可以隨時擴產所以基本上它是一個多贏的方案,那有誰會不高興然後產業能夠升級部長,那你認為有誰會不高興我想"},{"start":85.54,"end":107.745,"text":"因為基於我們做形成這個不對稱戰力對於台海的防衛作戰有一個重大的一個效益所以我想北京當然會很憂心對,所以北京中共是會不高興的想要阻止破壞這件事情是中共嘛所以他今天有提到說他想要爭取足夠的空間而且擔心我們的無人載具、無人機這個壞的"},{"start":108.985,"end":132.145,"text":"大陸多年苦心經營的台海的優勢所以如果我們用這種不對稱的戰力無人載具的話會讓台灣得到更大的一個安全上的保證嗎 是吧是 在防衛作案上面我想我們用小的代價就會得到很重大效果而讓中共不敢輕舉妄動不敢整個對台灣任何的一個侵略的行動 是吧我想在俄烏戰爭"},{"start":135.447,"end":155.439,"text":"打到現在 我想已經可以看得很清楚了無人載具整個改變了戰爭的形態所以這也是北京中共最擔憂的所以他當然會想盡各種方法讓你台灣 讓你的國防部讓你不能夠取得無人載具讓你沒有這樣的能量那他才能爭取到更多的空間對台灣施壓的空間 甚至劇烈台灣的空間 是吧"},{"start":156.379,"end":183.507,"text":"對 因為尤其我們必須透過這樣子的一個特別預算來帶動一個我們軍規要求的比較特殊的這些我們國內可能還需要跟國外再來進一步合作不管是飛控、通訊、光電導航、看干擾能力等等這些我想都需要再進一步所以我們的軍貨預算一個非紅供應鏈不要仰賴中國然後也能夠打入國際供應鏈然後又能夠自主產能"},{"start":184.227,"end":207.89,"text":"所以這就是我講的多贏嘛 這是一個多贏的方案嘛其實國際跟國防部跟產業界都會支持 台灣人民也會支持所以我們不理解為什麼在當時我們的軍國預算4700億被刪掉把無人載具的刪掉 這是毫無理由的因為它對台灣的安全是好的唯一會不高興的就是中共而已 但是竟然會被刪掉了所以為什麼會有這樣的說法出來 就是說"},{"start":208.53,"end":234.204,"text":"以民代軍 現在看來這樣的草案裡面看起來在野黨的版本是以民代軍啊 部長是嗎其實我不是很清楚所謂以民代軍的意思是什麼 如果說是對於我們的軍事面的一個作戰需求 要求要降低的話我們國防部是沒有辦法接受 我們國防部就是希望能夠不斷的提升我的認知 以民代軍就是"},{"start":235.345,"end":251.625,"text":"像這樣的無人載具的部分以民間發展為優先啦不要國防部 國防不要用啦不要國防用 不要軍用啦我們就是希望我們是最大的一個需求單位嘛所以我們國防的作戰的需求有一定的一個規格的要求"},{"start":252.105,"end":275.95,"text":"那這些規格的要求就是能夠帶動產業升級所以這對台灣才是重要的嘛因為每一個都是要經過實際的一個實際的測試的嘛那唯有國防部重視支持的時候世界才會信任台灣的這些產業能力同時間當我們有20萬架的無人機的時候我們才能夠確保台海的和平嘛所以這個方向絕對是正確誰會不高興 中共會不高興包括石城"},{"start":276.89,"end":291.652,"text":"彈性他希望時程能夠拉長一點對我們來說如果能夠現在趕快用特別預算直接能夠立即來做處理的話那台灣能夠最快時間去取得這20萬架的無人機的話無人載具的話對台灣當然是最安全的保障吧部長同意這樣的看法吧"},{"start":292.332,"end":313.757,"text":"對,我想是這樣,因為我們無人載具,國內有一定的量,因為國內的這些半導體的產業,特別在硬體的部分,我們有很大的優勢,那所以在軟體的部分,我們跟國外能夠來進行合作,那產業升起,然後迭代創新,我想這也本身就是一個很重要的一個"},{"start":313.937,"end":334.803,"text":"這是最好的方案啦因為我們現在的業者需要的是訂單而國防部也需要國防部給了大量的一個機會的時候我們的業者就能夠在這些訂單中去增強我們的實力打上國際盃同時間我們國防部也能取得更多無人載具的能量的時候我們更能確保我們台灣的和平所以這個絕對是一個多贏的方案所以我不解為什麼會有"},{"start":335.683,"end":355.813,"text":"所以今天包括釋出供應鏈的機會在我看來就是要打掉非紅供應鏈這件事情但是現在已經很明確我們絕對是跟美國的民主友邦站在一起我們怎麼可能在這件事情上是跟一個獨裁專制的國家站在一起對 非紅供應鏈是我們這一次提出特別預算用這個長單索就要達到一個非常非常重要的一個目的因為"},{"start":356.833,"end":376.003,"text":"現在畢竟在民用的部分中國的無人機佔了相當大的市場現在世界各國都在國防的運用上面都已經體認到在這一點不能夠去依賴中國的這些不管是關鍵民主建或者是相關的這些揮控或者通訊模組等等"},{"start":376.403,"end":397.582,"text":"那所以大家都要採取這一個去紅化的產生的民主供應鏈那我們在這個民主供應鏈上面我們必須要佔有一席之地佔有一席之地那就是要跟這些理念價值相近的國家來共同合作是 部長我再問吼無人載具重不重要無人機無人艦這個未來發展重不重要"},{"start":399.099,"end":412.958,"text":"就我們國防部立場對防衛作戰有非常的一個在不對稱作戰能力的建構上具有非港高度的重要性非常高度的重要性那我問你一下台灣在五人採聚這一塊的能力是不是也得到肯定"},{"start":414.503,"end":433.162,"text":"我想無人載具因為它不斷地迭代創新最主要就是說它可能幾個月前是一種能力對不對那幾個月後又是一種能力的進展那這個我們國內有一定的基礎這也就是我們所以能夠發展的一個"},{"start":433.823,"end":458.522,"text":"部長這兩年快速的發展我們的訂單快速的成長所以這個也看得出來我們其實有很強的一個能力那我也希望大家應該共同來支持啦如果我剛剛講過特別預算才能夠達到最大的一個效果我相信國人都是支持的國人都支持這也是個多贏的那如果採年度預算其實大家已經講到非常多了它涉及到了排擠的效應涉及到能不能定期的編列出來"},{"start":459.302,"end":483.175,"text":"業界也擔憂甚至可能影響到其他的育兒甚至老農甚至治水的經費這都會影響到甚至騎乘都會受影響這就是老共所希望的所以我們希望各界應該共同朝野應該共同來支持刑罪的版本支持國防部我想這才是一個忠於人民忠於國家的一個做法部長認同嗎是好我們希望朝野應該共同來忠於國家忠於人民好謝謝好謝謝偉好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}