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那"},{"start":93.931,"end":114.783,"text":"包括您這樣的2100億的特別預算的軍購案當中即爭即打即的這個殺戀那你們有這個即時目標的爭獲對於這個濱海偵測型的無人機包括精準打擊摧毀濱海攻擊型的無人機以及這個水面主角迫害的小型自殺無人艇好 這些的採購案你怎麼落實讓我能夠帶動我國內的"},{"start":123.909,"end":142.381,"text":"這個的產業呢來 部長您說看看您的做法是什麼我們的做法就是說我們獲得一個特別預算雖然是長年的一個預算可是我們會分年分批採購那我們在每年的分年分批採購裡面"},{"start":143.462,"end":164.582,"text":"我們會逐步的提升我們要求的規格性能然後符合迭代創新所以我們作為一個最大的需求單位我們要求所有的這個屬於無人機也好無人艇也好它都要能夠排行因此它就要有一個看到這個長單它才會願意投資然後建立一個穩定的產線規模"},{"start":166.864,"end":171.711,"text":"你們國防部也不可能常常接觸啊最接觸業者的所有傳統產業的業者的關鍵零組件的業者會是經濟部啊那你這邊又是怎麼的跟經濟部合作呢"},{"start":178.84,"end":191.771,"text":"我們這邊是以需求來創造規模跟這個升級那經濟部的話可能會是以這個產業補助的方式來帶動這個這個產業界願意進行投資對 那產業需要技術啊 產業需要設備啊產業需要輔導團隊啊那你這個對接上 我知道部長你就是開一個規格嘛 然後就招標嘛"},{"start":204.862,"end":209.365,"text":"哪些廠商能不能符合 反正你就是來招標嘛那對我們現在的 以我中南部高雄來講你們大內宣 都說這個對於我們國內啊多少的產值啊我南部這麼多 我們有全世界第一流的扣件產業我們的中鋼台船 中油石化鏈全部我們有幾個石化區 有三個石化區在高雄欸"},{"start":233.302,"end":239.984,"text":"這邊的業者哀鴻遍野所以我都不曉得你這邊寫說我們要打造飛鴻供應鏈啊要加惠我的這個基礎展業啊在哪裡啊所以從你這張我就覺得不可能啊因為你沒有輔導啊這些的業者過往都是在他們的各個行業當中啊去發展啊我做石化業的 我做船的我做台電的 我做這個中油的"},{"start":262.952,"end":278.207,"text":"包括國家建設的那他們民主建的能力有沒有有啊那他怎麼對應那你怎麼的來落實呢所以你的你跟你也沒跟我講說你要跟經濟部合作喔你只說好我國防部開單"},{"start":279.668,"end":305.814,"text":"然後呢 那經濟部你怎麼對接啊好 跟委員報告其實我們經濟部跟國安部有一個平台那也就是說叫什麼平台就是軍民這個科技創新的這樣的一個平台層級在哪裡對 層級是在次長次長級的這樣次長對次長對 次長對次長的一個平台固定開會什麼時候那我們會固定固定開會固定的話大概是每半年每半年會有每半年 難怪"},{"start":307.734,"end":324.797,"text":"我所有的基礎產業根本都沒有受益到嘛所以國安部會把他們需求會告訴我們那我們就會把他的需求他的技術要求到什麼樣的等級這個部分我們會透過產業輔導我們去協助我們廠商提升這個技術輔導技術的能力那透過科技專案透過法人科專業界科專的方式來跟我們的這個業者一同來針對一些技術的缺口來提升"},{"start":337.159,"end":340.181,"text":"好 你知道你114年 經濟部你114年到119年編了442億的無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫好 那這個國防部呢現在如果通過2100億"},{"start":352.549,"end":365.776,"text":"好 不管是在國防部主導啦 或者是你經濟部主導那你怎麼對接 如果假設是還是國防部主導 他還是開規格啊很明顯不管是經濟部主導 規格還是你國防部開啊好 那你開了之後 你2100億欸那你怎麼來加惠我國內的製造業者啊"},{"start":373.363,"end":377.466,"text":"顧部長然後呢你的經濟部目前也只有442億那你這442億是要再怎麼樣的對接你現在怎麼對接我這2100億的採購單啊還是2100億當中再撥多少會是到你們經濟部來啊"},{"start":391.936,"end":399.163,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們442億裡面我們經濟部就編了141億做研發方面的協助你說多少 2100億當中442億的統籌型計畫它是散落在各個部會的需求裡面那我們經濟部這邊光這個研發補助的部分我們就提出了141億的一個研發補助"},{"start":417.04,"end":442.732,"text":"還有部長 部長我這邊點出一個什麼問題我現在點出的也難怪啦我一定支持行政院版本但是如果按照顧部長你這樣的打法也難怪這個有這個在野黨要提出是放在經濟部就民間來講他先不講說這個什麼國防自主飛鴻公園他就講說他的訂單因為他們快活不下去了他覺得這個訂單放在經濟部才有訂單啊"},{"start":446.348,"end":455.373,"text":"才有會實施的有輔導團隊好然後呢反正你一定會開規格可是真的落實陪伴我的產業的是誰是經濟部啊可是他資源最少反正你規格開了之後然後之後要輔導的就是都在經濟部也難怪也難怪有人說要提出要放在經濟部啊因為你產業沒有講啊好那如果來喔這個建立那我本席要要求喔"},{"start":474.144,"end":478.065,"text":"非紅供應鏈之後我認為本席認為一定要提高自治率的審查機制了排除拿外國組件來台鎖螺絲的投機者所以我也說你們的國產化你們的這個"},{"start":492.409,"end":504.075,"text":"台灣製造啊 我也怕你們有這樣弊端啊那所以呢 拿國外組件來一台索羅斯啊所以在這邊 我們的防線我認為主計總處 撥款查核的條件合約零文化 明定技術 關鍵技術比如說非控 抗干擾本土產製的比例是多少你的付款的卡控 撥款必須將在地的自治率列為絕對審核 查核的條件"},{"start":521.725,"end":528.648,"text":"那這個部分是國安部你能夠開嗎我就這樣要求啊或者我怎麼落實我的在地生產我從歸宏供應已經要有一定已經到另外第二階段了哪一個是要多少筆是我國內要做"},{"start":539.277,"end":552.174,"text":"國防部的立場是我們排除中國的任何的這個原件或者是進入在我們這一個無人機或者無人艇的採購案但是我們不會排除跟國際上面的合作"},{"start":553.404,"end":558.228,"text":"對 那對我國內產業那對我國內產業的家會在哪裡所以我全部都是去買我除了這不買中國之外我買美國 我買加拿大的我買澳洲的 我買英國的所以就是沒有買台灣的台灣也沒有能力把它提升起來你的意思就這樣喔"},{"start":572.278,"end":591.839,"text":"跟委員報告我們國內的這個產業的能力在無論載具這一塊是很強的那我們有一些部分要做一些特殊規格的升級可能不能難以避免還是要跟國外的一些業者來進行相關的合作但是我們排除中國的部分"},{"start":592.259,"end":621.278,"text":"那你如何幫助讓這個技術呢這個在做技術合作的同時當然我們也希望它能夠技術落地謝謝主席 主席不好意思再給我一分鐘就好如何幫助在地的金屬加工與航太業者跨過軍規如非控抗干擾的嚴苛門檻我們都事前會做一些商情的調查所以我們會盡量的讓這些規格在既有的這個情況之下商情是你自己做還是你要跟經濟部一起合作"},{"start":621.798,"end":626.022,"text":"我們會跟他一起合作 我們自己也會做好 那請你一定要到高雄來啊我高雄都從來沒有接觸過什麼叫做什麼叫做無人載具 光是經濟部下的我就覺得寥寥無幾了好 你開出2100億我中南部哪一個業者會說 哇 真的哇 真的 這個也可以看到我們這麼哀鴻遍野的一個傳統產業可以看到生機 沒有啊"},{"start":647.361,"end":651.123,"text":"所以你的這個輔導請下到高雄至少要高雄南二都裡面一定要有好嗎部長啊 郭部長可以嗎這個部我想我們經濟部會來對啊 你看嘛所以我要點出你國防部根本沒有能力去培養你只會喊而已啊你不排除跟國外合作"},{"start":670.253,"end":678.68,"text":"跟國外來然後再來洗產地中國再透過洗產地再進到我國內來不都是這樣嗎經濟部都是在防堵這些事情啊好再來政策我這經濟部442億的輔導預算是否以針對國防部開出的規格進行實質的技術對接了嗎經濟部442億你有對接這個國防部嗎"},{"start":692.071,"end":706.062,"text":"有的 我們有一些軍民通用的技術其實已經是對接了那剛也跟委員報告其實我們跟國安部有這樣的一個平台他們會把需求提前告訴我們好 OK 最後我謝謝主席我最後就結論國際授權台灣製造電力戰略"},{"start":710.166,"end":722.583,"text":"這個任性 我具體要求兩個 跨部會對接我認為只有國防部跟這個經濟部次長級還不夠行政院級的對接小組 成立行政院級的無人載具採購與產業對接小組比照"},{"start":725.928,"end":731.592,"text":"美國DIU的國防創新小組他以國防部跟他們的經濟部合作然後跟他們的矽谷合作跨部會的合作讓中南部的產業聚落升級我知道你要說這個副院長已經有了但那個是沒有效的因為你們看不出規格把所有的這個各部會蒐集出來你們沒有規格直接給你們一個懲罰署讓懲罰署去找出那個規格問民間問民間你的規格是什麼來產生所謂的規格"},{"start":756.248,"end":763.094,"text":"你們的做法是這樣那再來我要求因為時間到了關鍵零組件的國產化路徑我請國防部提出交出逐年成長的這個時程表請國防部接同經濟部一個月內提交關鍵零組件國產化比例的逐年成長路徑圖需要包括系統次系統時程表及項目顧部長請回應"},{"start":783.772,"end":801.747,"text":"我們會持續跟經濟部合作來瞭解說有國內的這個有關於不管是整機或者相關的關鍵零組件的一個能力然後我們會做一個適當的一個規格的擬定那我們會跟這個經濟部來通知一個月可以嗎來有關就如何進行相關的這些應該是說軍民的這些技術的這個對調一個月可以嗎經濟部來保持"},{"start":813.069,"end":819.553,"text":"部長回答我時程 你沒黃金十年在告訴我嗎還是一個月內提出來這個關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖一個月可以嗎 協同經濟部"},{"start":824.974,"end":850.061,"text":"我想這個部分的關鍵零組件的國產化的這個比例我們才會再跟經濟部那是不是由經濟部來提出對啊你看你看我問到部長答不出來因為不是你的問題喔郭部長那個委員不要一直在那邊講說我答不出來答不出來我的國防部就是依照國我的作戰戰力的需求我提出我的採購項目嘛對那誰來支持你業者嘛那業者的輔導的項目這是經濟部在主管啊我會來協助"},{"start":852.13,"end":880.335,"text":"你會協助嘛但是我就認為你做得不好啊部長本來你就是交不出來啊所以你這邊已經想出答案你根本對業者是沒有辦法去做處理的嘛本來也不是你的業務啊所以你應該很誠實的講可是今天開規則的是你啊所以我這邊要求國防部接同經濟部因為規格是你再開啊好那你如果要給經濟部那我告訴你你這樣的回答剛好讓人家為什麼主管機關要放在經濟部了那次長你回答一個月能不能提出來"},{"start":881.417,"end":895.72,"text":"我最在意的是我國內的業者能不能在這樣兩千一百億包括你們的七千多萬億當中能夠加惠我的這個傳統產業根本沒有嘛根文包我們是不是可以提出技術缺口的一個路徑圖我們來補強這個部分好 謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:12.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:15.128000+08:00","text":"有請經濟部、國防部。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:16.730000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:17.991000+08:00","text":"請經濟部何次長和國防部顧部長。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:17.991000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:23.701000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:23.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:33.645000+08:00","text":"部長，您的報告第3頁有提到，我們無人載具的採購能夠培植國內無人載具戰時擴充的能量與韌性。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:41.208000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:42.808000+08:00","text":"你覺得怎麼樣在全機體國內組裝之非紅供應鏈下，打造安全韌性的無人載具生態系？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:06:42.828000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:06:46.129000+08:00","text":"你這邊特別強調非紅供應鏈，本席也非常認同這是我們國家軍購的最高原則。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:07:10.454000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:07:11.395000+08:00","text":"從經濟部，我看不出你怎麼去支援國防部，在我們針對臺海不對稱的地域場景，這也是國防部的報告當中提到的。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:07:11.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:07:58.323000+08:00","text":"當然本席要求預算必須精準對接中南部的航太聚落跟落實自主產能，包括2,100億特別預算的軍購案當中，即偵即打擊殺鏈，你們有即時目標的偵獲，對於濱海偵測型的無人機，包括精準打擊、摧毀濱海攻擊型的無人機，以及水面阻絕迫害的小型自殺無人艇。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:07:58.343000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:08:08.469000+08:00","text":"這些採購案，你怎麼落實，帶動國內的產業呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:08:09.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:08:13.553000+08:00","text":"部長，您說看看，您的做法是什麼？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:08:13.553000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:08:32.827000+08:00","text":"我們的做法是，我們獲得一個特別預算，雖然是長年的預算，可是我們會分年分批採購，我們在每年的分年分批採購裡面，逐步提升我們要求的規格性能，以符合迭代創新。","quality":0.986},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:08:34.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:08:48.561000+08:00","text":"我們作為一個最大的需求單位，我們要求所有的，無論是無人機也好，無人艇也好，它都要能夠排紅，因此一看到這個長單，他才會願意投資，建立一個穩定的產線規模……","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:08:50.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:08:55.690000+08:00","text":"可是你們國防部也不可能常常接觸業者，最常接觸所有傳統產業業者、關鍵零組件的業者會是經濟部，你又是怎麼跟經濟部合作呢？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:09:02.840000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:09:09.506000+08:00","text":"我們這邊是以需求來創造規模跟升級，經濟部可能會是以產業補助的方式帶動產業界願意進行投資，然後……","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:09:09.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:09:15.751000+08:00","text":"但是產業需要技術、產業需要設備、產業需要輔導團隊，在對接上，我知道部長就是開個規格，然後就招標。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:09:28.862000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:00.163000+08:00","text":"哪些廠商能不能符合，反正就是招標，以我中南部、高雄來講，你們大內宣都說這個對我們國內有多少的產值，我南部這麼多產業，我們有全世界第一流的扣件產業，中鋼、台船、中油石化鏈全部，我們有三個石化區在高雄，這邊的業者哀鴻遍野，所以我都不曉得，你這邊寫要打造非紅供應鏈，要嘉惠基礎產業，在哪裡？","quality":0.937},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:01.443000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:32.718000+08:00","text":"從這當中，我就覺得不可能，因為你沒有輔導，這些業者過往都是在他們各個行業當中去發展，做石化業的、做船的、做台電的、做中油的，包括國家建設的，他們有沒有零組件的能力？有啊！","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:33.919000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:36.622000+08:00","text":"但是他們怎麼對應，你又怎麼來落實呢？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:38.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:45.648000+08:00","text":"你也沒跟我講你要跟經濟部合作，你只說國防部開單，那經濟部怎麼對接？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:46.269000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:51.130000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實我們經濟部跟國防部有一個平臺，也就是……","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:51.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:51.870000+08:00","text":"叫什麼平臺？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:52.510000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:56.051000+08:00","text":"就是軍民科技創新的一個平臺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:56.171000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:57.771000+08:00","text":"層級在哪裡？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:57.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:10:59.131000+08:00","text":"層級是次長級的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:10:59.451000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:00.792000+08:00","text":"次長對次長？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:00.792000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:01.952000+08:00","text":"對，次長對次長的一個平臺。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:02.472000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:03.272000+08:00","text":"固定開會是什麼時候？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:05.853000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:06.653000+08:00","text":"固定的話，大概每半年會有……","quality":0.545},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:07.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:08.693000+08:00","text":"每半年？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:08.713000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:09.133000+08:00","text":"每半年會有……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:09.794000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:15.135000+08:00","text":"難怪我們所有基礎產業根本都沒有受益到嘛！","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:16.395000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:11:28.777000+08:00","text":"國防部會把他們的需求告訴我們，我們就會要求他的技術到什麼樣的等級，透過產業輔導來協助廠商提升技術能力，透過科技專案、透過法人科專、業界科專的方式，跟業者一同針對一些技術的缺口來提升。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:11:41.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:00.691000+08:00","text":"好，經濟部114年到119年編了442億無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫，國防部現在如果通過2,100億，不管是國防部主導，或者經濟部主導，你們要怎麼對接？","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:01.172000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:09.716000+08:00","text":"假設還是國防部主導，由他們開規格，很明顯，不管是誰主導，規格還是國防部開，規格開了之後，顧部長，你這2,100億要如何嘉惠我們國內的製造業者？","quality":0.746},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:19.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:20.766000+08:00","text":"經濟部目前只有442億，你這442億要怎麼對接到國防部2,100億的採購單？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:20.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:21.446000+08:00","text":"還是2,100億當中會再撥多少到你們經濟部來？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:36.737000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:38.999000+08:00","text":"其實這442億裡面，經濟部就編了141億做研發方面的協助……","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:39.019000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:39.059000+08:00","text":"你再講一次，2,100億當中，你說多少？","quality":0.308},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:12:39.380000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:12:43.143000+08:00","text":"不是、不是，442億的統籌型計畫是散落在各部會的需求裡面，我們經濟部光研發補助部分就提出了141億的研發補助經費，要來協助國內的……","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:02.481000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:04.962000+08:00","text":"次長、部長，我點出了一個什麼問題？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:08.143000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:18.008000+08:00","text":"當然，我一定支持行政院版本，但如果按照顧部長這樣的答法，難怪有在野黨提出來要放在經濟部！","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:20.629000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:30.608000+08:00","text":"先不講什麼國防自主、非紅供應鏈，就民間來講，因為他們快活不下去了，他們覺得這個放在經濟部才有訂單，才會有實質的輔導團隊！","quality":0.796},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:30.928000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:31.909000+08:00","text":"反正你們一定會開規格，可是真正落實、陪伴產業的是誰？","quality":0.913},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:31.909000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:31.989000+08:00","text":"是經濟部啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:32.249000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:13:37.472000+08:00","text":"但是他資源最少，反正規格開了之後，接下來要輔導的都是在經濟部，也難怪有人提出來要放在經濟部，因為你產業的部分沒有講啊！","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:13:58.144000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:14:01.405000+08:00","text":"除了非紅供應鏈外，本席認為一定要提高自製率的審查機制，排除拿外國組件來臺鎖螺絲的投機者。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:14:01.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:14:49.247000+08:00","text":"你們的國產化、臺灣製造，我也怕會有這樣的弊端，拿國外組件來臺鎖螺絲，所以這部分的防線，我認為是主計總處撥款查核條件化，包括合約明文化，明定關鍵技術（如飛控與抗干擾）本土產製比例；以及付款卡控，撥款必須將在地自製率列為絕對審核、查核條件，這部分國防部能夠開嗎？","quality":0.843},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:14:49.247000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:14:50.847000+08:00","text":"我就這樣要求，否則怎麼落實在地生產？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:14:50.907000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:14:52.628000+08:00","text":"非紅供應鏈已經到第二階段了，多少比例是國內要做的？部長。","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:03.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:17.404000+08:00","text":"國防部的立場是排除中國的任何元件進入到我們這個無人機或者無人艇的採購案，但我們不會排除跟國際上的合作。對！","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:17.404000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:18.085000+08:00","text":"那對我國內產業的嘉惠在哪裡？","quality":0.538},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:18.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:18.505000+08:00","text":"國內產業它……","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:18.865000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:22.208000+08:00","text":"全部都是用買的，除了不買中國的外，買美國、加拿大、澳洲、英國的，但就是沒有買臺灣的，臺灣也沒有能力把它提升起來，你的意思是這樣喔？","quality":0.911},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:36.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:56.259000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，國內產業在無人載具這一塊的能力是很強的，我們有一些部分是要做特殊規格的升級，可能很難避免要跟國外的業者進行相關合作，但是我們排除中國的部分，那……","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:56.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:15:57.340000+08:00","text":"那你如何幫助……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:15:59.641000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:03.904000+08:00","text":"在做技術合作的同時，當然我們也希望能夠技術落地……","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:04.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:04.624000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝主席。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:04.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:05.865000+08:00","text":"不好意思，主席，再給我1分鐘。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:06.506000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:13.330000+08:00","text":"如何幫助在地金屬加工與航太業者跨過軍規（如飛控、抗干擾）的嚴苛門檻？部長。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:13.330000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:21.535000+08:00","text":"我們事前都會做一些商情的調查，所以會儘量讓這些規格在既有的情況之下……","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:21.755000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:25.258000+08:00","text":"商情是你自己做，還是跟經濟部一起合作？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:25.798000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:26.419000+08:00","text":"我們會跟他們合作，但我們自己也會做。","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:26.439000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:27.620000+08:00","text":"好，請你一定要到高雄來，高雄從來都沒有接觸過什麼叫做無人載具，光是經濟部下的，我就覺得寥寥無幾。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:27.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:28.841000+08:00","text":"現在你開出2,100億，我們中南部有哪一個業者會說：哇！真的！","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:29.181000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:29.922000+08:00","text":"可以讓我們哀鴻遍野的傳統產業看到生機！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:29.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:30.002000+08:00","text":"沒有啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:51.361000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:52.682000+08:00","text":"所以你的輔導請下到高雄，至少要到高雄，南二都裡面一定要有，好嗎？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:52.822000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:52.962000+08:00","text":"顧部長，可以嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:52.962000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:53.202000+08:00","text":"這個部分，我們經濟部會來……對啊！","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:53.582000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:53.622000+08:00","text":"你看嘛！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:53.782000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:16:54.703000+08:00","text":"所以我要點出來，國防部根本沒有能力去培養，你只會喊而已啊！","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:16:54.723000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:19.277000+08:00","text":"你說不排除跟國外合作，到時候除了不跟中國買外，全部都跟國外買，中國再透過洗產地進到國內來，不都是這樣嗎？","quality":0.66},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:19.277000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:20.038000+08:00","text":"經濟部都是在防堵這些事情啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:20.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.420000+08:00","text":"再來，經濟部442億的輔導預算，是否已針對國防部開出的規格，進行實質技術對接？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.480000+08:00","text":"經濟部？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.480000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:23.480000+08:00","text":"是，我們……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:22.680000+08:00","text":"442億你有對接國防部嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:36.071000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:47.260000+08:00","text":"有的，其實我們有一些軍民通用技術已經對接了，也跟委員報告，我們跟國防部有這樣一個平臺，他們會把需求提前告訴我們。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:47.260000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:17:54.406000+08:00","text":"好，OK，謝謝主席，我最後結論：國際授權、臺灣製造、奠定戰略韌性！","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:17:54.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:12.630000+08:00","text":"我具體要求兩點，跨部會對接，我認為只有國防部跟經濟部次長級的平臺還不夠，成立行政院級的對接小組、無人載具採購與產業對接小組，比照美國DIU國防創新小組，他們是國防部跟經濟部合作，然後跟矽谷合作；以跨部會的合作，讓中南部的產業聚落升級。","quality":0.916},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:18:12.630000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:41.830000+08:00","text":"我知道你要說這個已經有副院長層級了，但那個是沒有效的，因為你們開不出規格，而是把所有各部會蒐集出來的規格直接給產發署，讓產發署去找出那個規格，問民間的規格是什麼，來產生所謂的規格，你們的做法是這樣……","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:18:41.830000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:42.830000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:18:42.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:42.650000+08:00","text":"因為時間到了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:18:42.670000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:43.431000+08:00","text":"再來，我要求關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖，國防部應提交逐年成長時程表。","quality":0.759},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:18:43.791000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:18:47.094000+08:00","text":"請國防部偕同經濟部於一個月內提交關鍵零組件國產化比例逐年成長路徑圖，需包括系統、次系統的時程表及項目，請顧部長回應。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:07.772000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:22.885000+08:00","text":"我們會持續跟經濟部合作，了解國內不管是整機或者相關關鍵零組件的能力，會做適當的規格擬定，我們會跟經濟部通盤……","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:23.325000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:23.545000+08:00","text":"好，一個月可以嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:23.565000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:24.926000+08:00","text":"就如何進行相關的這些……軍民的這些技術對接……","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:24.926000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:25.387000+08:00","text":"一個月可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:25.387000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:25.727000+08:00","text":"我們會隨時跟經濟部保持……","quality":0.455},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:37.069000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:41.311000+08:00","text":"部長回答我時程，你要黃金十年再告訴我嗎？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:41.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:43.512000+08:00","text":"一個月內提出關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖，協同經濟部，一個月可以嗎？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:50.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:56.096000+08:00","text":"有關關鍵零組件國產化比例，我們會再跟經濟部……是不是由經濟部來提出？對啊！你看！","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:57.096000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:57.356000+08:00","text":"我問到……","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:57.356000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:19:58.356000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們有一個技術……","quality":0},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:19:57.896000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:00.817000+08:00","text":"部長答不出來，不是你的問題，顧部長……","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:01.297000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:09.159000+08:00","text":"委員，不要一直在那邊講我答不出來，我們國防部就是依照作戰戰力需求，提出我們的採購項目……對！","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:09.159000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:10.160000+08:00","text":"那誰來支持業者？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:11.480000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:13.700000+08:00","text":"業者輔導的項目，這是經濟部主管的啊！","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:13.841000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:14.041000+08:00","text":"我們會來協助。","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:16.130000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:18.910000+08:00","text":"你會協助，但是我就認為你做得不好啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:19.491000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:29.452000+08:00","text":"部長，本來你就是交不出來，我已經想出答案，對業者的部分，你根本沒辦法處理，這本來這也不是你的業務，所以你應該很誠實地講。","quality":0.811},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:29.452000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:35.213000+08:00","text":"可是今天開規格的是你，所以我要求國防部偕同經濟部，因為規格是你在開啊！","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:36.173000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:41.794000+08:00","text":"你如果要給經濟部，那我就告訴你，你這樣的回答，剛好讓人家覺得主管機關要放在經濟部。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:42.555000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:44.335000+08:00","text":"次長，你回答，一個月能不能提出來？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:45.417000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:55.573000+08:00","text":"我最在意的是，國內業者能不能在這2,100億中，包括你們的部分，嘉惠到我們的傳統產業，根本沒有嘛！","quality":0.825},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:57.036000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:59.500000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我們是不是可以提出技術缺口的路徑圖？","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:59.500000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:59.540000+08:00","text":"我們會來補強這個部分。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"林委員岱樺","start":"2026-07-16T10:20:59.700000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:20:59.720000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:21:00.220000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:21:02.220000+08:00","text":"謝謝林岱樺委員。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:21:02.520000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:21:05.377143+08:00","text":"接下來有請鄭天財委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":412,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時6分）有請經濟部、國防部。"],["主席：請經濟部何次長和國防部顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您的報告第3頁有提到，我們無人載具的採購能夠培植國內無人載具戰時擴充的能量與韌性。你覺得怎麼樣在全機體國內組裝之非紅供應鏈下，打造安全韌性的無人載具生態系？你這邊特別強調非紅供應鏈，本席也非常認同這是我們國家軍購的最高原則。從經濟部，我看不出你怎麼去支援國防部，在我們針對臺海不對稱的地域場景，這也是國防部的報告當中提到的。當然本席要求預算必須精準對接中南部的航太聚落跟落實自主產能，包括2,100億特別預算的軍購案當中，即偵即打擊殺鏈，你們有即時目標的偵獲，對於濱海偵測型的無人機，包括精準打擊、摧毀濱海攻擊型的無人機，以及水面阻絕迫害的小型自殺無人艇。這些採購案，你怎麼落實，帶動國內的產業呢？部長，您說看看，您的做法是什麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們的做法是，我們獲得一個特別預算，雖然是長年的預算，可是我們會分年分批採購，我們在每年的分年分批採購裡面，逐步提升我們要求的規格性能，以符合迭代創新。我們作為一個最大的需求單位，我們要求所有的，無論是無人機也好，無人艇也好，它都要能夠排紅，因此一看到這個長單，他才會願意投資，建立一個穩定的產線規模……"],["林委員岱樺：可是你們國防部也不可能常常接觸業者，最常接觸所有傳統產業業者、關鍵零組件的業者會是經濟部，你又是怎麼跟經濟部合作呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我們這邊是以需求來創造規模跟升級，經濟部可能會是以產業補助的方式帶動產業界願意進行投資，然後……"],["林委員岱樺：但是產業需要技術、產業需要設備、產業需要輔導團隊，在對接上，我知道部長就是開個規格，然後就招標。哪些廠商能不能符合，反正就是招標，以我中南部、高雄來講，你們大內宣都說這個對我們國內有多少的產值，我南部這麼多產業，我們有全世界第一流的扣件產業，中鋼、台船、中油石化鏈全部，我們有三個石化區在高雄，這邊的業者哀鴻遍野，所以我都不曉得，你這邊寫要打造非紅供應鏈，要嘉惠基礎產業，在哪裡？從這當中，我就覺得不可能，因為你沒有輔導，這些業者過往都是在他們各個行業當中去發展，做石化業的、做船的、做台電的、做中油的，包括國家建設的，他們有沒有零組件的能力？有啊！但是他們怎麼對應，你又怎麼來落實呢？你也沒跟我講你要跟經濟部合作，你只說國防部開單，那經濟部怎麼對接？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實我們經濟部跟國防部有一個平臺，也就是……"],["林委員岱樺：叫什麼平臺？"],["何次長晉滄：就是軍民科技創新的一個平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：層級在哪裡？"],["何次長晉滄：層級是次長級的。"],["林委員岱樺：次長對次長？"],["何次長晉滄：對，次長對次長的一個平臺。"],["林委員岱樺：固定開會是什麼時候？"],["何次長晉滄：固定的話，大概每半年會有……"],["林委員岱樺：每半年？"],["何次長晉滄：每半年會有……"],["林委員岱樺：難怪我們所有基礎產業根本都沒有受益到嘛！"],["何次長晉滄：國防部會把他們的需求告訴我們，我們就會要求他的技術到什麼樣的等級，透過產業輔導來協助廠商提升技術能力，透過科技專案、透過法人科專、業界科專的方式，跟業者一同針對一些技術的缺口來提升。"],["林委員岱樺：好，經濟部114年到119年編了442億無人載具產業發展統籌型計畫，國防部現在如果通過2,100億，不管是國防部主導，或者經濟部主導，你們要怎麼對接？假設還是國防部主導，由他們開規格，很明顯，不管是誰主導，規格還是國防部開，規格開了之後，顧部長，你這2,100億要如何嘉惠我們國內的製造業者？經濟部目前只有442億，你這442億要怎麼對接到國防部2,100億的採購單？還是2,100億當中會再撥多少到你們經濟部來？"],["何次長晉滄：其實這442億裡面，經濟部就編了141億做研發方面的協助……"],["林委員岱樺：你再講一次，2,100億當中，你說多少？"],["何次長晉滄：不是、不是，442億的統籌型計畫是散落在各部會的需求裡面，我們經濟部光研發補助部分就提出了141億的研發補助經費，要來協助國內的……"],["林委員岱樺：次長、部長，我點出了一個什麼問題？當然，我一定支持行政院版本，但如果按照顧部長這樣的答法，難怪有在野黨提出來要放在經濟部！先不講什麼國防自主、非紅供應鏈，就民間來講，因為他們快活不下去了，他們覺得這個放在經濟部才有訂單，才會有實質的輔導團隊！反正你們一定會開規格，可是真正落實、陪伴產業的是誰？是經濟部啊！但是他資源最少，反正規格開了之後，接下來要輔導的都是在經濟部，也難怪有人提出來要放在經濟部，因為你產業的部分沒有講啊！","除了非紅供應鏈外，本席認為一定要提高自製率的審查機制，排除拿外國組件來臺鎖螺絲的投機者。你們的國產化、臺灣製造，我也怕會有這樣的弊端，拿國外組件來臺鎖螺絲，所以這部分的防線，我認為是主計總處撥款查核條件化，包括合約明文化，明定關鍵技術（如飛控與抗干擾）本土產製比例；以及付款卡控，撥款必須將在地自製率列為絕對審核、查核條件，這部分國防部能夠開嗎？我就這樣要求，否則怎麼落實在地生產？非紅供應鏈已經到第二階段了，多少比例是國內要做的？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場是排除中國的任何元件進入到我們這個無人機或者無人艇的採購案，但我們不會排除跟國際上的合作。"],["林委員岱樺：對！那對我國內產業的嘉惠在哪裡？"],["顧部長立雄：國內產業它……"],["林委員岱樺：全部都是用買的，除了不買中國的外，買美國、加拿大、澳洲、英國的，但就是沒有買臺灣的，臺灣也沒有能力把它提升起來，你的意思是這樣喔？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，國內產業在無人載具這一塊的能力是很強的，我們有一些部分是要做特殊規格的升級，可能很難避免要跟國外的業者進行相關合作，但是我們排除中國的部分，那……"],["林委員岱樺：那你如何幫助……"],["顧部長立雄：在做技術合作的同時，當然我們也希望能夠技術落地……"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝主席。不好意思，主席，再給我1分鐘。如何幫助在地金屬加工與航太業者跨過軍規（如飛控、抗干擾）的嚴苛門檻？部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我們事前都會做一些商情的調查，所以會儘量讓這些規格在既有的情況之下……"],["林委員岱樺：商情是你自己做，還是跟經濟部一起合作？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會跟他們合作，但我們自己也會做。"],["林委員岱樺：好，請你一定要到高雄來，高雄從來都沒有接觸過什麼叫做無人載具，光是經濟部下的，我就覺得寥寥無幾。現在你開出2,100億，我們中南部有哪一個業者會說：哇！真的！可以讓我們哀鴻遍野的傳統產業看到生機！沒有啊！所以你的輔導請下到高雄，至少要到高雄，南二都裡面一定要有，好嗎？顧部長，可以嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：這個部分，我們經濟部會來……"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！你看嘛！所以我要點出來，國防部根本沒有能力去培養，你只會喊而已啊！你說不排除跟國外合作，到時候除了不跟中國買外，全部都跟國外買，中國再透過洗產地進到國內來，不都是這樣嗎？經濟部都是在防堵這些事情啊！再來，經濟部442億的輔導預算，是否已針對國防部開出的規格，進行實質技術對接？經濟部？"],["何次長晉滄：是，我們……"],["林委員岱樺：442億你有對接國防部嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：有的，其實我們有一些軍民通用技術已經對接了，也跟委員報告，我們跟國防部有這樣一個平臺，他們會把需求提前告訴我們。"],["林委員岱樺：好，OK，謝謝主席，我最後結論：國際授權、臺灣製造、奠定戰略韌性！我具體要求兩點，跨部會對接，我認為只有國防部跟經濟部次長級的平臺還不夠，成立行政院級的對接小組、無人載具採購與產業對接小組，比照美國DIU國防創新小組，他們是國防部跟經濟部合作，然後跟矽谷合作；以跨部會的合作，讓中南部的產業聚落升級。我知道你要說這個已經有副院長層級了，但那個是沒有效的，因為你們開不出規格，而是把所有各部會蒐集出來的規格直接給產發署，讓產發署去找出那個規格，問民間的規格是什麼，來產生所謂的規格，你們的做法是這樣……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告……"],["林委員岱樺：因為時間到了。再來，我要求關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖，國防部應提交逐年成長時程表。請國防部偕同經濟部於一個月內提交關鍵零組件國產化比例逐年成長路徑圖，需包括系統、次系統的時程表及項目，請顧部長回應。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會持續跟經濟部合作，了解國內不管是整機或者相關關鍵零組件的能力，會做適當的規格擬定，我們會跟經濟部通盤……"],["林委員岱樺：好，一個月可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：就如何進行相關的這些……軍民的這些技術對接……"],["林委員岱樺：一個月可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會隨時跟經濟部保持……"],["林委員岱樺：部長回答我時程，你要黃金十年再告訴我嗎？一個月內提出關鍵零組件國產化路徑圖，協同經濟部，一個月可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有關關鍵零組件國產化比例，我們會再跟經濟部……是不是由經濟部來提出？"],["林委員岱樺：對啊！你看！我問到……"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們有一個技術……"],["林委員岱樺：部長答不出來，不是你的問題，顧部長……"],["顧部長立雄：委員，不要一直在那邊講我答不出來，我們國防部就是依照作戰戰力需求，提出我們的採購項目……"],["林委員岱樺：對！那誰來支持業者？"],["顧部長立雄：業者輔導的項目，這是經濟部主管的啊！"],["何次長晉滄：我們會來協助。"],["林委員岱樺：你會協助，但是我就認為你做得不好啊！部長，本來你就是交不出來，我已經想出答案，對業者的部分，你根本沒辦法處理，這本來這也不是你的業務，所以你應該很誠實地講。可是今天開規格的是你，所以我要求國防部偕同經濟部，因為規格是你在開啊！你如果要給經濟部，那我就告訴你，你這樣的回答，剛好讓人家覺得主管機關要放在經濟部。次長，你回答，一個月能不能提出來？我最在意的是，國內業者能不能在這2,100億中，包括你們的部分，嘉惠到我們的傳統產業，根本沒有嘛！"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，我們是不是可以提出技術缺口的路徑圖？我們會來補強這個部分。"],["林委員岱樺：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林岱樺委員。接下來有請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}