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那接下來我們請王逸川委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們請經濟部次長還有國防部顧部長請經濟部和次跟顧部長王委員好"},{"start":20.307,"end":33.715,"text":"好 我先請教經濟部這次國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的相關的版本有哪一些條文哪一些精神是你們可以納進去或者說你們已經在做或者在這個統籌型計畫裡頭你們已經在執行了是"},{"start":38.642,"end":43.384,"text":"跟委員報告那也謝謝國民黨跟民眾黨的黨團他們對無人機產業輔導的這個重視那其實這一部分的一些內容我們在無人機產業發展的統修型計畫裡面都已經納進來了而且這是跨部位的合作"},{"start":57.37,"end":67.094,"text":"那也就是說我們許多的一些輔導的工作是由經濟部來主導但是有很多的配套包括資安包括我們需要飛行的這個場域的測試還有相關的這些評估是相關的一些這個規範這些都是由相關部會簡單講就是說這個兩黨提出來的這些版本相關的精神或者是提出來的做法"},{"start":84.702,"end":108.744,"text":"已經都在你們經濟部在統籌型計畫裡頭都涵蓋進來了這樣代表你們過去做的人沒有信心人家有信心看到統籌型計畫他們就不會提啦所以這個還要再努力不然人家說你們的輔導做得不好什麼做得不好這個要加油 請問現在整機的出口"},{"start":109.564,"end":114.728,"text":"大家看到我們去年是0.93沒關係這數字都知道我的意思是說既然這兩個黨提出來的版本有些條文啊如果你們認為這個應該要更加強在你們統籌型計畫或後續推動你們有很多的聯盟嘛大家就會來推動的時候"},{"start":129.177,"end":133.279,"text":"把他放進去讓國民黨跟民眾黨可以放心這不會說看起來沒信心所以提這個要把他法治化這第一個 第二個 次長我再請教這秋霜啊買的是頂端還是要補助啊到人家開公司 說我這間公司開了就是要捏補助的"},{"start":149.38,"end":152.143,"text":"其實應該是說有穩定的訂單然後看得到的訂單 這個我想現在是廠商最需要的然後穩定的訂單 或者是顧部長提到這個長單這有出來之後 他可能也會去融資導租新的設備"},{"start":167.476,"end":178.979,"text":"新的廠房 它才有信心嘛啊你如果是說一年一年變400億 大家就說有時候有 有時候沒有時候清的到 有時候清不到有時候二十到九年都還沒過 還沒年代過這樣很不穩定的情況之下 現在中小企業 你要叫他們落職下去去跟他們借錢 他可能也緊張緊張啦"},{"start":193.803,"end":199.411,"text":"好 所以這個穩定的這個訂單啊我相信是比較重要的好 我接著請到國安部柏立法 你們這一個條例裡頭很明確"},{"start":204.332,"end":226.659,"text":"很明確你們就是要採購三件事情 對吧 尖針型無人機 濱海攻擊型無人機 小型自殺無人艇就是三大類別嘛 對不對 是好 那這一些跟我們前一陣子啊 1.25兆的這個條例裡頭被砍掉的那四千多億有沒有相關啊"},{"start":227.997,"end":253.324,"text":"我們原來確實是有在我們的特別前次的特別條例裡面有編列要採購的這些相關的國防自主無人載具的這個項目就包括特別是在自主的這個部分那有一些我們會編列在其他的包括我們今年的年度預算跟追加預算裡面"},{"start":254.824,"end":278.192,"text":"但就明年的年度預算或者是今年就是要預算我們會再來嚴釐相關部分但是我們對於這些能夠創造國防自主振興的一個產業鏈的建構我們認為用特別預算的方式是比較適合部長這個上次砍掉了那些無人機的錢我相信韓國瑜院長不管帶團到英國法國帶團到美國"},{"start":284.014,"end":309.771,"text":"所有國外的這些國會議員包括他們的相關的部門啊都在問台灣被砍掉的那些無人機相關無人載具的預算什麼時候會補回來這個在場的不管是個哪一個政黨去的代表都說會會會所以你們提了這2100億大概就是要把這件事情補回來我這樣講有錯嗎"},{"start":312.751,"end":332.515,"text":"特別是就我們能夠建立一個自主的費用供應鏈的這一塊我們要把它補回來好那今天這個國民黨有提出了一個版本那那個版本裡頭大概它也有一部分是說要採購的有一部分是要發展產業 兩種錢混在一起談這如果版本通過 國安部叫經濟部"},{"start":339.994,"end":361.861,"text":"你們有辦法變醫生嗎 你們要怎麼分啊2400除以2等於1200 還是2400這你們有想法嗎 還是這通過了你真的沒辦法處理因為你們2100億很明確就是那三類你們會算出2100億就那三類各採購多少你們算過大概預算才會保住2100億這個數字嘛"},{"start":364.605,"end":382.749,"text":"那現在如果通過是這2400億包括這些產業的,不然你跟國人說一下,這如果真的通過就對了,叫國民黨的班分通過啦這要到國安部的時候,國安部會跟行政院什麼建議,行政院說你跟歐洲編議上的時候,你會怎麼樣來處理這些顆粒"},{"start":390.458,"end":417.82,"text":"我當然第一個是認為就是說在立法上面裡面匡列然後限制說我們所有的無人載具就是也包括居民共用測試場域還有什麼產業聚落期中小企業特別服務等等就是限定在400億這個部分一年的400億然後一年的400億然後將它匡列在這個條例裡面並不是一個適切的做法因為"},{"start":418.601,"end":436.495,"text":"要怎麼樣編列預算來納入如果是要納入年度預算的話那年度預算的這個規模每年都不一樣那有多少的部分要分配到我們國防部的國防預算裡面那也要依據我們作戰的需求來加以來考量編列"},{"start":437.296,"end":453.755,"text":"那現在說一個400億但是他也沒有講得很清楚說這400億哪些部分的資用的一個像這剛剛講的那三個項目到底應該是哪些佔多少錢他並沒有說明得非常的清楚那這樣子的話那我覺得"},{"start":460.236,"end":469.773,"text":"我覺得最大的問題應該是說我們每年的所有的國防自主的無人載具會隨著時代的演進會有很大的不同我舉個例子我們現在2114包括"},{"start":473.322,"end":498.888,"text":"也就是兩款的無人機一款的自殺無人艇對不對那我們接下來可能還有地面的無人載具我們還有水下的無人載具這些如果都在這個國民黨的自主的無人載具的科技發展跟採購條例裡面他就限縮你所有的無人載具就只有這些那還要跟經濟部去協調來做分配我覺得無論如何"},{"start":500.373,"end":521.03,"text":"沒有辦法能夠切切的去展望我們未來能夠執行真的會有自然難行的部分那採購的部分我們現在提出光不是提出就是他比較明確就是這建森型的攻擊型的無人機跟無人艇"},{"start":521.59,"end":546.57,"text":"那就這個部分我們就把它很明確的匡列住嘛那但是無人載具的部分的發展是日新月異的像我們現在也同時也要用小批量採購來驗證地面的無人載具我們現在也在進行研發這個水下無人載具那這個部分沒有辦法被限制住啦我覺得立法院也不宜限制住行政院編列的預算的權利"},{"start":547.25,"end":553.172,"text":"好 我想今天這個 你在這邊的答詢包括韓國瑜院長 撮團去參加過的這些人都知道啦齁那同時跟答應什麼東西 跟承諾什麼東西 跟保證什麼東西這個國家大家都在看啦 美國也在看 英國也在看 法國也在看包括中國也在看"},{"start":569.077,"end":594.765,"text":"所以我想今天國安部的立場非常清楚就是兩千一百億來採購這三類無人載具的這一些裝備、設備來充實我們的國防實力那請國安部繼續加油阿你那個經濟部齁,人家在問你,你如果卡卡的,對你沒信心說要再編一段立法起來齁,這個你們要加油"},{"start":595.285,"end":603.69,"text":"好不好不然大家說要互打該互打的不好繼續加油好不好好謝謝好謝謝王逸川委員接下來有請"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:44:46.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:44:52.035000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，請經濟部次長，還有國防部顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:44:52.035000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:44:56.317000+08:00","text":"請經濟部何次跟顧部長。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:44:56.317000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:44:56.717000+08:00","text":"王委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:44:57.867000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:45:07.373000+08:00","text":"我先請教經濟部，關於這一次國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的相關版本，有哪一些條文、哪一些精神是你們可以納進去的，有沒有？","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:45:08.533000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:45:09.754000+08:00","text":"或者你們已經在做？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:45:10.214000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:45:10.655000+08:00","text":"或者在統籌型計畫裡頭你們已經在執行了？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:45:15.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:45:20.364000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，謝謝國民黨跟民眾黨黨團對無人機產業輔導的重視，其實這部分的一些內容，我們在無人機產業發展的統籌型計畫裡面都已經納進來了，而且這是跨部會的合作。","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:45:34.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:45:43.194000+08:00","text":"也就是說，許多輔導工作是由經濟部來主導，但是有很多配套，包括資安、包括我們需要飛行場域的測試，還有相關的頻譜、規範，這些都是由相關部會……","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:45:43.194000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:07.667000+08:00","text":"簡單講，關於兩黨提出來的這些版本，相關的精神或者是提出來的做法，你們經濟部的統籌型計畫裡頭都已經涵蓋進來了？","quality":0.84},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:07.667000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:07.667000+08:00","text":"是，都納進來了。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:08.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:23.421000+08:00","text":"這樣代表人家對你們過去做的沒有信心，人家如果有信心、看得懂那個統籌型計畫，他們就不會提了，所以這個還要再努力，不然人家說你們的輔導做得不好、什麼做得不好，這個要加油。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:24.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:28.165000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，其實關於我們現在整機的出口，大家看到我們去年是0.93……","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:28.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:48.458000+08:00","text":"沒關係，這些數字我都知道，我的意思是，如果你們認為這兩個黨提出來的版本中有些條文應該要更加強，在你們統籌型計畫或後續推動，因為你們有很多聯盟，大家一起推動的時候把它放進去，讓國民黨跟民眾黨可以放心，才不會因為沒信心，所以提這個要把它法制化，這是第一個。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:48.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:49.439000+08:00","text":"第二個，我再請教次長，廠商要的是訂單還是補助？","quality":0.65},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:46:49.679000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:46:50.239000+08:00","text":"難道有人開公司會說，我開這間公司就是為了要領補助？","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:06.400000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:47:07.641000+08:00","text":"應該是說，有穩定的訂單、看得到的訂單，我想這是現在廠商最需要的。","quality":0.929},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:08.242000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:47:26.637000+08:00","text":"獲得穩定的訂單或者是顧部長提到的長單之後，他可能才有辦法去融資，投資新的設備、新的廠房，他才有信心嘛。","quality":0.783},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:27.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:47:35.959000+08:00","text":"如果一年編400億，有時候有，有時候沒有，有時候申請得到，有時候申請不到，有時候預算到隔年都還沒通過，有的年底通過，在很不穩定的情況之下，你要這些中小企業投錢下去，跟銀行借錢，他可能也滿緊張的。對。","quality":0.679},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:51.244000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:47:55.330000+08:00","text":"所以我相信穩定的訂單是比較重要的。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:55.770000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:47:56.091000+08:00","text":"接下來我請教國防部。","quality":0.444},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:47:56.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:48:04.753000+08:00","text":"部長，你們這一個條例裡頭很明確就是要採購三件事情，對吧？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:48:05.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:48:14.356000+08:00","text":"監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機、小型自殺無人艇，就這三大類別嘛，對不對？是。","quality":0.906},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:48:16.217000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:48:23.639000+08:00","text":"這一些跟我們前一陣子1.25兆條例裡頭被砍掉的那四千多億有沒有相關？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:48:24.997000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:48:58.606000+08:00","text":"我們原來確實在前次的特別條例裡面有編列要採購這些相關的國防自主無人載具項目，特別是在自主的這個部分，有一些我們會編列在其他的，包括我們明年的年度預算或者是今年的追加預算，我們會再來研擬相關部分。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:48:58.687000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:49:08.370000+08:00","text":"但是對於這些能夠創造國防自主韌性的產業鏈建構，我們認為用特別預算的方式比較適合。","quality":0.947},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:49:08.990000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:49:36.224000+08:00","text":"部長，關於上次砍掉的那些無人機的錢，我相信韓國瑜院長不管帶團到英國、法國、美國，所有國外的國會議員，包括他們的相關部門，都在問臺灣被砍掉的那些無人載具相關預算什麼時候會補回來？","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:49:36.224000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:49:41.767000+08:00","text":"在場的不管是哪一個政黨去的代表都說：會！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:49:41.767000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:49:46.771000+08:00","text":"所以你們提了這2,100億大概就是要把這件事情補回來，我這樣講有錯嗎？","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:49:49.751000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:49:54.972000+08:00","text":"特別是就我們能夠建立一個自主的非紅供應鏈這一塊，我們要把它補回來。好。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:49:56.412000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:08.154000+08:00","text":"今天國民黨有提出了一個版本，那個版本裡頭大概有一部分是要採購，有一部分是要發展產業，兩種錢混在一起談。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:08.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:18.474000+08:00","text":"如果這個版本通過，國防部與經濟部有辦法編預算嗎？","quality":0.682},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:18.474000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:18.995000+08:00","text":"你們要怎麼分？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:20.775000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:25.497000+08:00","text":"2,400億除以2等於1,200億，還是2,400億……這部分你們有想法嗎？","quality":0.619},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:25.497000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:27.277000+08:00","text":"還是這個通過你們真的沒辦法處理？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:27.718000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:44.986000+08:00","text":"因為你們的2,100億很明確就是那三類，你們會算出2,100億那三類各要採購多少，你們估算過大概的預算才會跑出2,100億這個數字嘛，現在如果通過這個2,400億，還包括這些產業的。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:46.466000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:57.868000+08:00","text":"部長，你跟國人說一下，這個如果真的照國民黨的版本通過，到最後國防部會給行政院什麼建議？","quality":0.744},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:50:57.868000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:50:59.629000+08:00","text":"行政院詢問你有沒有辦法編預算的時候，你會怎麼樣處理這些課題？","quality":0.607},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:51:07.458000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:51:27.895000+08:00","text":"第一個，我當然是認為，在立法上匡列然後限制我們所有的無人載具，包括軍民共用測試場域，還有產業聚落及中小企業特別扶助等等，就是限定在400億這個部分……","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:51:28.175000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:51:29.336000+08:00","text":"一年400億。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:51:29.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:51:36.702000+08:00","text":"一年400億將它匡列在這個條例裡面，並不是一個適切的做法，因為要怎麼樣編列預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:51:39.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:51:53.475000+08:00","text":"如果是要納入年度預算的話，年度預算的規模每年都不一樣，有多少部分要分配到我們國防部的國防預算裡面，也要依據我們的作戰需求來加以考量、編列。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:51:54.877000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:52:10.554000+08:00","text":"現在也沒有講得很清楚在這400億當中，剛剛講的那三個項目到底哪些是占多少錢，這並沒有說明得非常清楚，這樣子的話……","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:52:10.554000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:52:17.236000+08:00","text":"如果叫你們兩個部會自己去「喬」呢？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:52:17.236000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:52:25.531000+08:00","text":"我覺得最大的問題應該是，我們每年的國防自主無人載具會隨著時代演進有很大的不同。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:52:25.952000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:05.440000+08:00","text":"我舉個例子，我們現在2,100億是包括三個類型，也就是兩款無人機、一款自殺無人艇，但我們接下來可能還有地面的無人載具，還有水下的無人載具，這些如果都在國民黨的國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例裡面，它又限縮所有的無人載具就只有這些，還要跟經濟部協調分配，我覺得無論如何沒有辦法確切的展望我們未來能夠執行……","quality":0.899},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:05.440000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:07.161000+08:00","text":"來不及？","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:07.161000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:08.362000+08:00","text":"真的會有窒礙難行的部分。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:09.743000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:13.346000+08:00","text":"關於採購的部分，國防部提出的比較明確，就是……","quality":0.684},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:13.346000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:14.827000+08:00","text":"這三類嘛。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:14.827000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:43.549000+08:00","text":"也就是監偵型、攻擊型的無人機跟無人艇，這個部分我們就很明確的把它匡列住，但是無人載具的發展日新月異，像我們現在也同時要用小批量採購來驗證地面的無人載具，我們現在也在進行研發水下無人載具，這個部分沒有辦法被限制住，我覺得立法院也不宜限制住行政院編列預算的權利！","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:53:44.250000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:53:50.152000+08:00","text":"好，關於今天你在這邊的答詢，包括韓國瑜院長帶團參訪過的這些人都在場，當時答應人家什麼東西、承諾人家什麼東西、保證了什麼東西，這些國家都在看，美國也在看，英國也在看，法國也在看，包括中國也在看。","quality":0.847},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:06.677000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:22.422000+08:00","text":"我想今天國防部的立場非常清楚，就是2,100億採購這三類無人載具的裝備、設備來充實我們的國防實力，請國防部繼續加油。","quality":0.94},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:23.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:32.967000+08:00","text":"經濟部，人家一直問你，看起來對你們沒信心，還要編預算及立法規範，你們要加油，好不好？","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:33.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:37.380000+08:00","text":"不然大家都說要輔導，卻又輔導得不好，這個繼續加油，好不好？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"王委員義川","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:38.604000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:38.724000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝！","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:39.146000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:40.048000+08:00","text":"謝謝王義川委員。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T10:54:40.048000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T10:54:40.690000+08:00","text":"接下來有請呂玉玲委員質詢。","quality":0.417}]},"gazette":{"lineno":551,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時44分）謝謝主席，請經濟部次長，還有國防部顧部長。"],["主席：請經濟部何次跟顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員義川：我先請教經濟部，關於這一次國民黨跟民眾黨提出來的相關版本，有哪一些條文、哪一些精神是你們可以納進去的，有沒有？或者你們已經在做？或者在統籌型計畫裡頭你們已經在執行了？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，謝謝國民黨跟民眾黨黨團對無人機產業輔導的重視，其實這部分的一些內容，我們在無人機產業發展的統籌型計畫裡面都已經納進來了，而且這是跨部會的合作。也就是說，許多輔導工作是由經濟部來主導，但是有很多配套，包括資安、包括我們需要飛行場域的測試，還有相關的頻譜、規範，這些都是由相關部會……"],["王委員義川：簡單講，關於兩黨提出來的這些版本，相關的精神或者是提出來的做法，你們經濟部的統籌型計畫裡頭都已經涵蓋進來了？"],["何次長晉滄：是，都納進來了。"],["王委員義川：這樣代表人家對你們過去做的沒有信心，人家如果有信心、看得懂那個統籌型計畫，他們就不會提了，所以這個還要再努力，不然人家說你們的輔導做得不好、什麼做得不好，這個要加油。"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，其實關於我們現在整機的出口，大家看到我們去年是0.93……"],["王委員義川：沒關係，這些數字我都知道，我的意思是，如果你們認為這兩個黨提出來的版本中有些條文應該要更加強，在你們統籌型計畫或後續推動，因為你們有很多聯盟，大家一起推動的時候把它放進去，讓國民黨跟民眾黨可以放心，才不會因為沒信心，所以提這個要把它法制化，這是第一個。","第二個，我再請教次長，廠商要的是訂單還是補助？難道有人開公司會說，我開這間公司就是為了要領補助？"],["何次長晉滄：應該是說，有穩定的訂單、看得到的訂單，我想這是現在廠商最需要的。"],["王委員義川：獲得穩定的訂單或者是顧部長提到的長單之後，他可能才有辦法去融資，投資新的設備、新的廠房，他才有信心嘛。如果一年編400億，有時候有，有時候沒有，有時候申請得到，有時候申請不到，有時候預算到隔年都還沒通過，有的年底通過，在很不穩定的情況之下，你要這些中小企業投錢下去，跟銀行借錢，他可能也滿緊張的。"],["何次長晉滄：對。"],["王委員義川：所以我相信穩定的訂單是比較重要的。","接下來我請教國防部。部長，你們這一個條例裡頭很明確就是要採購三件事情，對吧？監偵型無人機、濱海攻擊型無人機、小型自殺無人艇，就這三大類別嘛，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員義川：這一些跟我們前一陣子1.25兆條例裡頭被砍掉的那四千多億有沒有相關？"],["顧部長立雄：我們原來確實在前次的特別條例裡面有編列要採購這些相關的國防自主無人載具項目，特別是在自主的這個部分，有一些我們會編列在其他的，包括我們明年的年度預算或者是今年的追加預算，我們會再來研擬相關部分。但是對於這些能夠創造國防自主韌性的產業鏈建構，我們認為用特別預算的方式比較適合。"],["王委員義川：部長，關於上次砍掉的那些無人機的錢，我相信韓國瑜院長不管帶團到英國、法國、美國，所有國外的國會議員，包括他們的相關部門，都在問臺灣被砍掉的那些無人載具相關預算什麼時候會補回來？在場的不管是哪一個政黨去的代表都說：會！所以你們提了這2,100億大概就是要把這件事情補回來，我這樣講有錯嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：特別是就我們能夠建立一個自主的非紅供應鏈這一塊，我們要把它補回來。"],["王委員義川：好。今天國民黨有提出了一個版本，那個版本裡頭大概有一部分是要採購，有一部分是要發展產業，兩種錢混在一起談。如果這個版本通過，國防部與經濟部有辦法編預算嗎？你們要怎麼分？2,400億除以2等於1,200億，還是2,400億……這部分你們有想法嗎？還是這個通過你們真的沒辦法處理？因為你們的2,100億很明確就是那三類，你們會算出2,100億那三類各要採購多少，你們估算過大概的預算才會跑出2,100億這個數字嘛，現在如果通過這個2,400億，還包括這些產業的。部長，你跟國人說一下，這個如果真的照國民黨的版本通過，到最後國防部會給行政院什麼建議？行政院詢問你有沒有辦法編預算的時候，你會怎麼樣處理這些課題？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，我當然是認為，在立法上匡列然後限制我們所有的無人載具，包括軍民共用測試場域，還有產業聚落及中小企業特別扶助等等，就是限定在400億這個部分……"],["王委員義川：一年400億。"],["顧部長立雄：一年400億將它匡列在這個條例裡面，並不是一個適切的做法，因為要怎麼樣編列預算？如果是要納入年度預算的話，年度預算的規模每年都不一樣，有多少部分要分配到我們國防部的國防預算裡面，也要依據我們的作戰需求來加以考量、編列。現在也沒有講得很清楚在這400億當中，剛剛講的那三個項目到底哪些是占多少錢，這並沒有說明得非常清楚，這樣子的話……"],["王委員義川：如果叫你們兩個部會自己去「喬」呢？"],["顧部長立雄：我覺得最大的問題應該是，我們每年的國防自主無人載具會隨著時代演進有很大的不同。我舉個例子，我們現在2,100億是包括三個類型，也就是兩款無人機、一款自殺無人艇，但我們接下來可能還有地面的無人載具，還有水下的無人載具，這些如果都在國民黨的國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例裡面，它又限縮所有的無人載具就只有這些，還要跟經濟部協調分配，我覺得無論如何沒有辦法確切的展望我們未來能夠執行……"],["王委員義川：來不及？"],["顧部長立雄：真的會有窒礙難行的部分。關於採購的部分，國防部提出的比較明確，就是……"],["王委員義川：這三類嘛。"],["顧部長立雄：也就是監偵型、攻擊型的無人機跟無人艇，這個部分我們就很明確的把它匡列住，但是無人載具的發展日新月異，像我們現在也同時要用小批量採購來驗證地面的無人載具，我們現在也在進行研發水下無人載具，這個部分沒有辦法被限制住，我覺得立法院也不宜限制住行政院編列預算的權利！"],["王委員義川：好，關於今天你在這邊的答詢，包括韓國瑜院長帶團參訪過的這些人都在場，當時答應人家什麼東西、承諾人家什麼東西、保證了什麼東西，這些國家都在看，美國也在看，英國也在看，法國也在看，包括中國也在看。我想今天國防部的立場非常清楚，就是2,100億採購這三類無人載具的裝備、設備來充實我們的國防實力，請國防部繼續加油。","經濟部，人家一直問你，看起來對你們沒信心，還要編預算及立法規範，你們要加油，好不好？不然大家都說要輔導，卻又輔導得不好，這個繼續加油，好不好？好，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員。","接下來有請呂玉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}