{"error":false,"id":["170511"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170511,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170511","日期":"2026-07-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,35,20],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","外交及國防委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-16T11:14:05+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-16T11:22:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d4775fe9ee3345f57ae6b1ac734a26d834dc4cd2db9a171d41d2cbee343b31a484f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:14:05 - 11:22:35","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":0.03096875,"end":0.99284375,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":2.03909375,"end":2.42721875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":4.03034375,"end":4.6040937500000005,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":10.341593750000001,"end":19.43721875,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":19.75784375,"end":22.10346875,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":24.92159375,"end":25.714718750000003,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":26.035343750000003,"end":26.91284375,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":27.11534375,"end":27.722843750000003,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":28.33034375,"end":29.207843750000002,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":31.28346875,"end":80.79471875,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":81.82409375,"end":83.10659375,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":84.06846875000001,"end":89.01284375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":89.16471875,"end":93.50159375000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":93.97409375000001,"end":94.39596875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":96.31971875,"end":101.11221875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":101.16284375000001,"end":102.31034375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":103.22159375000001,"end":107.69346875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":107.99721875,"end":129.74909375000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":129.78284375,"end":130.74471875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":131.16659375,"end":132.76971875,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":133.17471875,"end":136.07721875000001,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","speaker_name":"何局長淑萍","start":136.24596875,"end":139.70534375,"speaker_score":0.944},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":139.90784375,"end":152.88471875000002,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":153.40784375,"end":173.65784375,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":174.41721875000002,"end":176.32409375,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker_name":"林委員楚茵","start":176.86409375000002,"end":198.09284375000001,"speaker_score":0.956},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":198.43034375000002,"end":204.91034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":205.19721875000002,"end":211.40721875000003,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":211.64346875,"end":213.73596875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":213.93846875000003,"end":215.47409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":215.52471875,"end":217.12784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":217.17846875,"end":219.59159375000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":219.86159375000003,"end":221.04284375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":221.17784375000002,"end":221.92034375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":222.35909375000003,"end":223.91159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":224.06346875000003,"end":225.58221875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":226.03784375,"end":228.48471875,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":228.92346875,"end":232.28159375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":232.43346875,"end":234.91409375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":234.94784375,"end":236.56784375,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","speaker_name":"何次長晉滄","start":236.92221875,"end":241.41096875000002,"speaker_score":0.985},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","speaker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謝謝好 又請國安部經濟部跟主計是 林委員部長好那個我請下一張"},{"start":31.328,"end":51.485,"text":"早上其實提案說明的時候我已經講得非常清楚了就是這一次我們的提案包括我本人以及行政院的提案都是為了補足我們在國防戰力上面尤其是在無人載具上面的這個所謂國防自主的部分那麼我們當然知道也感謝主席非常快的就已經進入排成"},{"start":53.046,"end":77.781,"text":"但是我必須要講國防自主跟產業發展這兩個它是合作無間但是首重我相信這一次會有這個條例就是要國防自主剛剛我一早在做提案說明的時候我也講了如果現在把主軸的機關變成是經濟部的話那這表示未來在國防自主的這一塊尤其是無人載具的部分的發展是由經濟部來領導國防部嗎那麼這個沒有本末倒置嗎"},{"start":82.037,"end":100.635,"text":"我想請顧部長我想我們已經一再的說明就是說經濟部可以為了產業的發展來進行相關的輔導跟補助但是國防部本身所需要的這個符合作戰需求的軍事裝備的採購"},{"start":103.288,"end":131.07,"text":"我想這應該毫無疑問是由國防部來主管然後來國防部我們這一次是提出特別條例那其他兩個部分是條例那我想特別條例的目的是為了要進一步再提出特別預算案來到大院來審查所以我想這兩個完全不宜是放在一起那也就是我們還是希望我們國防部的這個採購很標的很明確符合我們作戰需求長年期長單的規劃能夠"},{"start":133.252,"end":159.828,"text":"建立我們國防自主的排紅的供應鏈那這個部分就是我們國防部來主管好所以言下之意就是如果真的主管機關是經濟部然後經濟部是必要的時候來召會國防部那就會變得很奇怪我們知道我們很多國防採購甚至於還包含有機密性那麼就會變成是經濟部上級指導國防部的採購或者是管採購的預算包括"},{"start":162.21,"end":165.433,"text":"這個未來我們在比較屬於機密跟測試的時候經濟部有辦法比如說我們國防需求的採購的部分包括測試我就請問經濟部次長"},{"start":174.471,"end":178.392,"text":"你有辦法去採購這種採購的過程當中包括還要測試還要使用那是經濟部的官員到營區去使用這些無人載具來驗收嗎還是你們要委託或者是你們指導國防部的這些將官將領們幫你們驗收這個會不會有權責上面的問題"},{"start":199.104,"end":215.191,"text":"這當然會有權色上的問題那目前的分工就是國安部他提出採購的需求那當然經濟部這邊基於產業發展的需要那配合國安部建軍的要求那他有一些技術可能需要經濟部來輔導產業的話那我們就會透過我們的科技專案"},{"start":220.353,"end":243.185,"text":"來協助業者來開發國防部所需要的這些相關的技術所以我想國防部跟經濟部過去我們一直以來我們對這個國防採購的一些相關的一些合作怎麼樣把軍民的通用的這相關的一些無人機的這個技術能夠你現在講的是軍民通用嗎那我就請問你啊"},{"start":244.366,"end":256.743,"text":"所以接下來你們願意你要當主責機關嗎到時候你這個不會造成你在所謂現在條例過關之後如果按照在野黨的版本而不是行政院的版本那麼這不會有權責不分的問題嗎包括你真的要成為"},{"start":261.329,"end":281.076,"text":"國防部的太少華未來這個所謂的驗收是由經濟部為了要主導全責所以進入這個指揮我們國軍來做驗收嗎是這樣嗎經濟部不會是擔任主管機關那因為這個部分還是國防部那邊他基於他建軍的需求基於國防自主的這個需求"},{"start":282.057,"end":305.198,"text":"所提出來的採購案所以我想經濟部是全力來配合產業來提供相關的技術研發的補助能夠讓我們台灣的產業它能夠配合供應內的自主在地的採購這樣的一個需求好 言下之意就是經濟部就是管經濟發展管產業發展它不可能管到國防這一塊 對不對"},{"start":306.459,"end":328.973,"text":"好 我們來看下一張另外一個本席提出來的問題就是有關於預算的部分剛剛部長講得很清楚為什麼要特別預算喔就是我想以這個最新的這個朝野協商我手上這個是上個禮拜最新的朝野協商啦就講到了我們到現在還在審今年度的總預算如果按照在野黨的版本每年編400億"},{"start":331.414,"end":341.698,"text":"那我就問 你是坑殺業者還是扶植產業像現在喔 已經到七月了哪一個廠商可以承受 到七月的預算還沒有下來所以這個是叫廠商自己墊錢嗎我跟你說 沒有訂單 銀行不會給你借錢啦訂單沒有下來 錢沒有下來幾百億的東西 要廠商自己吞嗎我就問 今天最新的一個報導講了就是"},{"start":357.885,"end":385.168,"text":"北京傳了三原則這三原則是以民代軍實成彈性釋出供應鏈的機會所以我就問經濟部跟國防部以這種所謂年度400億來編業者敢投入嗎七月了預算都還沒過那我再問如果是按照在野黨這種400億的版本放在年度預算請問現在要怎麼編下年度的預算我請問國防部跟經濟部這不荒謬嗎"},{"start":389.178,"end":401.815,"text":"我們已經一再的說明就是說我們提出來的這個部分是因為我們認為國內有這樣的一個自主能量然後我們必須要有這樣子的一個產業鏈才能夠具備暫時擴產的這個能量跟這個韌性所以才會提出這樣的一個"},{"start":407.501,"end":426.981,"text":"特別條例然後進一步提出特別預算年度預算的部分我們始終沒有辦法能夠確確的去掌握下一年度的這個預算的情況那所以從我們需求的最大的需求的單位來講我們提出一個長單嘛"},{"start":429.497,"end":433.319,"text":"但是這個長單但是問題如果說現在這個長單是用每年400億400億在以立法院現在這個狀況全台灣民眾全部的業者都知道2026年的預算到現在7月了還沒審8月不知道能不能過關我就問經濟部次長這樣的業者敢投入嗎有保障嗎"},{"start":455.129,"end":475.06,"text":"是這也是我們擔心的我們是希望說有特別預算他可以穩定而且是有一個長期的一個預算的承諾能夠讓業者他可以有一個長期的訂單可以來保障他們未來來投入研發或是在投資上面他們可以看得到未來"},{"start":475.68,"end":503.958,"text":"所以為什麼我們不建立把它放在公務預算因為公務預算會有排擠而且會有剛剛委員提到審查時間上的一個延宕所以對業者來講可能都是未來會是投資的風險好 我相信在野都支持無人載具的發展但是不要原本是要扶植產業變成坑殺業者在這裡我也提醒經濟部要非常注意不要讓業者血本無歸因為業者"},{"start":505.48,"end":507.826,"text":"幾百家都在等著看好不好是謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:15.797000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:14:24.784000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席，因為時間有限，我請國防部長、經濟部次長，還有主計處的代表官員，如果有需要回應的就一起上臺，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:25.284000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:14:30.148000+08:00","text":"有請國防部、經濟部跟主計。","quality":0.818},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:30.368000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:14:31.349000+08:00","text":"林委員好。","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:31.349000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:14:31.609000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:36.328000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:14:52.722000+08:00","text":"其實早上提案說明的時候，我已經講得非常清楚了，這一次我們的提案，包括我本人以及行政院的提案，都是為了補足我們在國防戰力上面，尤其是在無人載具上面所謂國防自主的部分。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:14:53.402000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:15:07.212000+08:00","text":"我們當然知道，也感謝主席非常快的就已經進入排程，但是我必須要講，國防自主跟產業發展這兩個合作無間，但是首重……我相信這一次會有這個條例，就是要國防自主。","quality":0.985},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:15:08.092000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:15:22.301000+08:00","text":"剛剛一早我在做提案說明的時候也講了，如果現在把主責的機關變成經濟部的話，就表示未來在國防自主這一塊，尤其是無人載具部分的發展，是由經濟部來領導國防部嗎？","quality":0.958},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:15:22.441000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:15:22.781000+08:00","text":"這個沒有本末倒置嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:15:27.037000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:15:29.259000+08:00","text":"我想請顧部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:15:29.259000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:15:51.431000+08:00","text":"我們已經一再的說明，經濟部可以為了產業的發展來進行相關的輔導跟補助，但是國防部本身所需要的、符合作戰需求的軍事裝備採購，我想這應該毫無疑問是由國防部來主管。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:15:52.251000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:16:08.384000+08:00","text":"國防部這一次是提出特別條例，其他兩個部分是條例，我想特別條例的目的是為了要進一步再提出特別預算案到大院審查，所以這兩個不宜放在一起。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:16:10.586000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:16:24.156000+08:00","text":"國防部的採購標的很明確，符合我們的作戰需求，長年期長單的規劃，希望能夠建立我們國防自主的、排紅的供應鏈，這個部分就是國防部來主管。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:16:25.136000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:16:33.861000+08:00","text":"所以言下之意就是，如果真的主管機關是經濟部，然後經濟部是必要的時候來照會國防部，那就會變得很奇怪。","quality":0.978},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:16:33.961000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:16:44.628000+08:00","text":"我們知道我們很多國防採購，甚至還包含有機密性，就會變成經濟部上級指導國防部的採購，或者是管採購的預算。","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:16:47.210000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:16:50.213000+08:00","text":"如果未來在比較屬於機密跟測試的時候，經濟部有辦法……比如說國防需求採購的部分，包括測試。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:16:50.213000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:02.732000+08:00","text":"我請問經濟部次長，你有辦法去採購，在過程當中包括測試、使用，所以是經濟部的官員到營區去使用這些無人載具來驗收嗎？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:02.732000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:02.812000+08:00","text":"還是你們要委託？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:02.812000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:03.252000+08:00","text":"或者是指導國防部的這些將官、將領們幫你們驗收？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:03.272000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:03.392000+08:00","text":"這個會不會有權責上面的問題？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:24.104000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:25.685000+08:00","text":"這當然會有權責上的問題。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:26.745000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:17:49.736000+08:00","text":"目前的分工就是國防部提出採購的需求，當然經濟部基於產業發展的需要，配合國防部建軍的要求，如果他有一些技術可能需要經濟部來輔導產業的的話，我們就會透過科技專案，協助業者開發國防部所需要的這些相關技術。","quality":0.946},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:17:49.736000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:18:05.264000+08:00","text":"所以過去以來，國防部跟經濟部針對國防採購一直有一些相關的合作，怎麼樣把軍民、通用相關無人機的一些技術，能夠在民間……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:18:05.264000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:18:12.791000+08:00","text":"你現在講的是軍民通用嘛，我就請問你，所以接下來，你願意當主責機關嗎？","quality":0.967},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:18:16.336000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:18:21.523000+08:00","text":"現在條例過關之後，如果按照在野黨的版本，而不是行政院的版本，到時候這個不會造成權責不分的問題嗎？","quality":0.864},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:18:21.523000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:18:37.473000+08:00","text":"包括經濟部真的要成為國防部的太上皇，經濟部為了要主導權責，未來驗收是由你們進行，並指揮我們國軍驗收，是這樣嗎？","quality":0.68},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:18:37.473000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:04.292000+08:00","text":"經濟部不會擔任主管機關，因為這個部分還是國防部基於建軍的需求、基於國防自主的需求所提出來的採購案，所以我想經濟部是全力配合產業，並提供相關技術研發的補助，讓臺灣的產業能夠配合供應鏈自主、在地採購這樣的需求。","quality":0.979},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:04.453000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:10.198000+08:00","text":"好，言下之意經濟部就是管經濟發展、管產業發展，不可能管到國防這一塊嘛，對不對？","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:11.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:30.731000+08:00","text":"好，另外本席提出來的問題是有關於預算的部分，剛剛部長講得很清楚為什麼要用特別預算，以最新的朝野協商，我手上這個是上個禮拜最新的朝野協商，裡面就講到現在我們還在審今年度的總預算。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:31.351000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:40.176000+08:00","text":"因此如果按照在野黨的版本，每年編400億，我就問你是坑殺業者還是扶植產業？","quality":0.935},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:40.176000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:44.637000+08:00","text":"像現在已經到7月了，哪一個廠商可以承受到7月了預算還沒有下來？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:44.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:44.938000+08:00","text":"是叫廠商自己墊錢嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:44.938000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:45.158000+08:00","text":"我跟你說，沒有訂單，銀行不會給你借錢啦！","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:45.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:19:46.418000+08:00","text":"訂單沒有下來，錢沒有下來，幾百億的東西要廠商自己吞嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:19:46.418000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:20:10.612000+08:00","text":"我就問，今天最新的一個報導講了，北京傳了三原則，這三原則是以民代軍、時程彈性、釋出供應鏈的機會。","quality":0.952},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:20:10.612000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:20:19.058000+08:00","text":"所以我就問經濟部跟國防部，以這種所謂年度400億來編，業者敢投入嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:20:19.319000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:20:28.746000+08:00","text":"7月了，預算都還沒過，那我再問，如果是按照在野黨這種400億的版本放在年度預算，請問現在要怎麼編下年度的預算？","quality":1},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:20:29.087000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:20:30.168000+08:00","text":"我請問國防部跟經濟部，這不荒謬嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:20:34.178000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:20:55.264000+08:00","text":"我們已經一再說明，我們提出來的這個部分，是因為我們認為國內有這樣的自主能量，然後我們必須要有這樣的產業鏈才能夠具備戰時擴產的能量跟韌性，所以才會提出這個特別條例，並進一步提出特別預算。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:20:55.905000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:21:14.537000+08:00","text":"年度預算的部分，我們始終沒有辦法確切地掌握下一年度預算的情況，所以從最大的需求單位來講，我們提出一個長單，業者就看得到這個規模。","quality":0.831},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:21:14.537000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:21:18.059000+08:00","text":"對，但是問題是，如果現在這個長單是用每年400億、400億，再以立法院現在這個狀況，全臺灣民眾、全部的業者都知道2026年的預算到現在7月了還沒審，8月不知道能不能過關，我就問經濟部次長，這樣業者敢投入嗎？","quality":0.963},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:21:18.059000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:21:18.319000+08:00","text":"有保障嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:21:40.569000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:04.943000+08:00","text":"這也是我們擔心的，我們希望有特別預算是可以穩定的，而且有長期預算的承諾，能夠讓業者有長期的訂單，保障他們未來在投入研發或是在投資上面可以看得到未來，所以為什麼我們不建議把它放在公務預算？","quality":0.954},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:05.403000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:15.970000+08:00","text":"因為公務預算會排擠，而且會有剛剛委員提到審查時間上的延宕，這對業者來講，可能都是未來投資的風險。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:15.970000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:23.275000+08:00","text":"好，我相信在野黨都支持無人載具的發展，但是不要原本是要扶植產業變成坑殺業者。","quality":0.971},{"speaker":"林委員楚茵","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:23.675000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:32.826000+08:00","text":"在這裡我也提醒經濟部要非常注意，不要讓業者血本無歸，因為幾百家業者都在等著看，好不好？謝謝。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:33.326000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:35.897429+08:00","text":"謝謝林楚茵委員。謝謝……","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:36.197429+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:48.483143+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，如果要放在年度總預算其實行政院本來就可以編列，應該不需要特別立法來講要年度預算。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:48.783143+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:22:52.783143+08:00","text":"接下來我們有請劉書彬委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":653,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時14分）謝謝主席，因為時間有限，我請國防部長、經濟部次長，還有主計處的代表官員，如果有需要回應的就一起上臺，謝謝。"],["主席：有請國防部、經濟部跟主計。"],["顧部長立雄：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。其實早上提案說明的時候，我已經講得非常清楚了，這一次我們的提案，包括我本人以及行政院的提案，都是為了補足我們在國防戰力上面，尤其是在無人載具上面所謂國防自主的部分。我們當然知道，也感謝主席非常快的就已經進入排程，但是我必須要講，國防自主跟產業發展這兩個合作無間，但是首重……我相信這一次會有這個條例，就是要國防自主。剛剛一早我在做提案說明的時候也講了，如果現在把主責的機關變成經濟部的話，就表示未來在國防自主這一塊，尤其是無人載具部分的發展，是由經濟部來領導國防部嗎？這個沒有本末倒置嗎？我想請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：我們已經一再的說明，經濟部可以為了產業的發展來進行相關的輔導跟補助，但是國防部本身所需要的、符合作戰需求的軍事裝備採購，我想這應該毫無疑問是由國防部來主管。國防部這一次是提出特別條例，其他兩個部分是條例，我想特別條例的目的是為了要進一步再提出特別預算案到大院審查，所以這兩個不宜放在一起。國防部的採購標的很明確，符合我們的作戰需求，長年期長單的規劃，希望能夠建立我們國防自主的、排紅的供應鏈，這個部分就是國防部來主管。"],["林委員楚茵：所以言下之意就是，如果真的主管機關是經濟部，然後經濟部是必要的時候來照會國防部，那就會變得很奇怪。我們知道我們很多國防採購，甚至還包含有機密性，就會變成經濟部上級指導國防部的採購，或者是管採購的預算。如果未來在比較屬於機密跟測試的時候，經濟部有辦法……比如說國防需求採購的部分，包括測試。我請問經濟部次長，你有辦法去採購，在過程當中包括測試、使用，所以是經濟部的官員到營區去使用這些無人載具來驗收嗎？還是你們要委託？或者是指導國防部的這些將官、將領們幫你們驗收？這個會不會有權責上面的問題？"],["何次長晉滄：這當然會有權責上的問題。目前的分工就是國防部提出採購的需求，當然經濟部基於產業發展的需要，配合國防部建軍的要求，如果他有一些技術可能需要經濟部來輔導產業的的話，我們就會透過科技專案，協助業者開發國防部所需要的這些相關技術。所以過去以來，國防部跟經濟部針對國防採購一直有一些相關的合作，怎麼樣把軍民、通用相關無人機的一些技術，能夠在民間……"],["林委員楚茵：你現在講的是軍民通用嘛，我就請問你，所以接下來，你願意當主責機關嗎？現在條例過關之後，如果按照在野黨的版本，而不是行政院的版本，到時候這個不會造成權責不分的問題嗎？包括經濟部真的要成為國防部的太上皇，經濟部為了要主導權責，未來驗收是由你們進行，並指揮我們國軍驗收，是這樣嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：經濟部不會擔任主管機關，因為這個部分還是國防部基於建軍的需求、基於國防自主的需求所提出來的採購案，所以我想經濟部是全力配合產業，並提供相關技術研發的補助，讓臺灣的產業能夠配合供應鏈自主、在地採購這樣的需求。"],["林委員楚茵：好，言下之意經濟部就是管經濟發展、管產業發展，不可能管到國防這一塊嘛，對不對？","好，另外本席提出來的問題是有關於預算的部分，剛剛部長講得很清楚為什麼要用特別預算，以最新的朝野協商，我手上這個是上個禮拜最新的朝野協商，裡面就講到現在我們還在審今年度的總預算。因此如果按照在野黨的版本，每年編400億，我就問你是坑殺業者還是扶植產業？像現在已經到7月了，哪一個廠商可以承受到7月了預算還沒有下來？是叫廠商自己墊錢嗎？我跟你說，沒有訂單，銀行不會給你借錢啦！訂單沒有下來，錢沒有下來，幾百億的東西要廠商自己吞嗎？我就問，今天最新的一個報導講了，北京傳了三原則，這三原則是以民代軍、時程彈性、釋出供應鏈的機會。所以我就問經濟部跟國防部，以這種所謂年度400億來編，業者敢投入嗎？7月了，預算都還沒過，那我再問，如果是按照在野黨這種400億的版本放在年度預算，請問現在要怎麼編下年度的預算？我請問國防部跟經濟部，這不荒謬嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們已經一再說明，我們提出來的這個部分，是因為我們認為國內有這樣的自主能量，然後我們必須要有這樣的產業鏈才能夠具備戰時擴產的能量跟韌性，所以才會提出這個特別條例，並進一步提出特別預算。年度預算的部分，我們始終沒有辦法確切地掌握下一年度預算的情況，所以從最大的需求單位來講，我們提出一個長單，業者就看得到這個規模。"],["林委員楚茵：對，但是問題是，如果現在這個長單是用每年400億、400億，再以立法院現在這個狀況，全臺灣民眾、全部的業者都知道2026年的預算到現在7月了還沒審，8月不知道能不能過關，我就問經濟部次長，這樣業者敢投入嗎？有保障嗎？"],["何次長晉滄：這也是我們擔心的，我們希望有特別預算是可以穩定的，而且有長期預算的承諾，能夠讓業者有長期的訂單，保障他們未來在投入研發或是在投資上面可以看得到未來，所以為什麼我們不建議把它放在公務預算？因為公務預算會排擠，而且會有剛剛委員提到審查時間上的延宕，這對業者來講，可能都是未來投資的風險。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我相信在野黨都支持無人載具的發展，但是不要原本是要扶植產業變成坑殺業者。在這裡我也提醒經濟部要非常注意，不要讓業者血本無歸，因為幾百家業者都在等著看，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。謝謝……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，如果要放在年度總預算其實行政院本來就可以編列，應該不需要特別立法來講要年度預算。"],["主席：接下來我們有請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}