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有請國防部長 經濟部次長還有國發基金的執行長好 請經濟部 國防部跟國發基金"},{"start":24.222,"end":34.989,"text":"是 劉委員好好 部長好我們今天來聯席審查國防自主無人載具的特別採購條例那我們看到這是2100億的這個特別預算是以行政院版來講的它希望是建構到不對稱的戰力並打造的飛鴻供應鏈我們都支持但是支持國防自主並不代表要放棄這個"},{"start":47.957,"end":55.199,"text":"預算的監督啦 我們更關心的是是不是能夠有自主的這樣韌性的無人機產業那我們現在知道的話是目前的無人機呢產業台灣在台灣的部分呢有世界級的半導體資通訊還有PCB的極光電供應鏈的這個優勢但是在高效率的馬達電子變速器還有高能量的密度電池以及"},{"start":74.284,"end":100.928,"text":"GNSS抗干擾模組的關鍵零組件當中能有相當程度是依賴國外供應我們想要問的是請教是先可能是次長或者是部長就是在關鍵零組件這邊對於剛才所說的有沒有去做這個零組件的這個關鍵的自主能力的盤點這部分包括是馬達ESC還有GNSS的部分"},{"start":102.132,"end":123.989,"text":"跟委員報告 其實剛剛委員講的很對就是說我們有一些技術的缺口這些技術缺口我們都把它盤點出來而且我們有一個關鍵技術開發的路徑從114年我們就用科技專案來跟業者一起來做開發透過法人 工研院等等那當然國防部這邊他會把需求告訴我們"},{"start":124.73,"end":147.603,"text":"那我們也會就國安部需求裡面所必須要求的這些技術關鍵的技術關鍵的零組件的部分如果業界還沒有辦法達到這個程度的話我們就透過這樣的科專補助的機制我們來協助業者來提升能量好 那我請問一下目前的這個國產化的這幾個關鍵技術的國產化的比例是多少"},{"start":149.283,"end":172.881,"text":"我們在這個專案報告裡面有提到我們有分小型、中型還有大型我們小型的無人機的國產化比例大概七成左右那中型大概六成那大型的話我們大概目前大概只有三成左右的比例好那我們就更要想要關心的是說中科院的部分也可以因為它的發展也跟在地的產業院的行程有一些關係好那請補充"},{"start":175.579,"end":191.559,"text":"我就拿那個我們的近鋒一型攻擊無人機來講它原本在國內的產製的比例是95%只差了5%是通信的部分那這個通信的部分我們也已經輔導國外的廠商落地在台生產了所以它現在的全自製比例就是100%"},{"start":192.6,"end":208.319,"text":"那剛剛委員提到的第一個高能量密度的電池的確在兩年之前這是我們國內比較缺陷的地方但是在經濟部的客栓補助之後我們現在其實我們用的高能量電池幾乎都是我們自己的另外我們從今年開始也在經濟部的統籌型計畫裡面"},{"start":210.177,"end":231.354,"text":"獲得了10.8億的預算這10.8億都在發展GNSS Denied的技術所以請委員放心那我想要更清楚的是說因為在GNSS當然很重要啦但是在整個條例當中我們好像沒有看到說他的這個研發的還有設計的經費這次有在這經費上面就已經就沒有在這一次還是說在經濟部裡面的"},{"start":233.055,"end":253.722,"text":"都編列在我們的統籌型計畫裡面那我們透過科技專案來跟法人還有跟業界來合作好那這樣子可以理解那另外我們看到是在遇到因為國防部一直強調說暫時的快速擴產但是如果說我們遇到的是在暫時遇到封鎖的時候這個快速擴產有沒有一些具體的配套措施暫時的能夠擴產的基礎"},{"start":259.133,"end":273.718,"text":"就是我們不需要仰賴外部的一個供應因為我們是一個海島型的國家我們的眾生比烏克蘭還要淺所以我們當然要能夠建立在無人採集這一塊能夠完全自主在地生產這是我們的目標那也許還有一些"},{"start":275.459,"end":302.373,"text":"尤其有一些高階它也許能量還不足那正是我們用透過這個長年的這個一個長單所以是國外購買的嗎我們長年的長單來促使這個廠商願意跟國外技術合作然後最後能夠落地這就剛剛鍾柯燕也有提到的這是我們現在想要達到的一些目標那因為這個無人載具的部分都迭代創新的很快我知道所以要用這個長單"},{"start":303.733,"end":307.175,"text":"這個效應來促使他願意投入更多但是我現在想到是國發基金的這個紙密就看到的是一個近年看到說國發基金他也跟各部會投入到大量的資源到福祉無人機產業但是也發生過一個採購程序跟委託研究案遭到監察院糾正的這個案例請問政府是不是已經有全面的檢討過去這個補助案投資跟採購制度的缺失"},{"start":332.066,"end":355.526,"text":"跟委員報告國發基金的這個從投錢的評估投資中的這個審議投後的管理以及這個相關的這個機制都在大院的要求之下我們有提出了我們現在看到這個案子創未來的科技公司目前還在出現這部分他有沒有退場或者是這些或是已經達到企劃的是不是已經有真正量產這個資料是不是可以跟大家公布"},{"start":358.28,"end":362.002,"text":"是 我想創未來是幾個具有這個專業的幾個大學教授出來創那當時在這個我們在投資這個創未來的過程當中也是經過這個嚴格的審議那覺得說這一個部分對不管是但是三次都沒有過欸國防部審查沒有過欸"},{"start":380.211,"end":388.539,"text":"這一個部分我們必須要尊重這個國防部他在這個相關的這個驗收這個部分我們比較不便 國發基金比較不便來做評論好 可是你們應該檢討機制啊甚至是不是應該讓他退場就是以後不具備這個條件了"},{"start":395.854,"end":421.016,"text":"是我們這個會持續來watch這個部分是不是可以給本席一個報告就是說你們在處理這部分包括國防部在怎麼面對說他到底出現了什麼問題那為什麼可以三次如果說叫國發基金來講的話委員會管理會是說他們前面是具備這個條件可是最後三次不過這個很誇張了是不是請國防部這邊要針對國防部的部分就是我們是當時就是公開招標嘛"},{"start":421.476,"end":440.291,"text":"那公開招標之後他要能夠提出這個驗測能夠通過才能夠我們才會支付這個價錢嘛那他現在依合約他在交貨的時候要驗測然後另外再兩次復驗不過他就會進行解約然後會罰款然後也會沒收旅遊保證金"},{"start":441.172,"end":468.457,"text":"好 這個制度看起來是有建立起來的 是好的齁好 呃 不過簡單的再說一下吧因為我們本黨裡面的重點就是說它有導入到可信任的分級制度嘛還有包括說有懲罰性的賠償跟落實房幣像剛才 部長你有提到說他們因為每次階段性的在如果他們驗收過就是不付費嘛 對不對但是他已經延宕了我國的這樣無人機的發展是不是要考慮到說有些賠償的機制當然鼓勵是鼓勵的 但是賠償的機制是不是要考慮到"},{"start":471.018,"end":480.392,"text":"就1月1月會來進行計法那個他的預期的一個違約金另外他的旅遊保證金會全部沒入"},{"start":481.941,"end":504.994,"text":"對 但是那個這個就是已經是讓他有到懲罰的效果了嗎是不是還有叫做這個比較巨額性的就是讓他有懲罰性的一種賠償因為他影響到國家的我想這個部分就是依合約來走嘛因為合約的相關的規範已經包括我們沒有支付任何企業的價金啊對 我的意思是因為他已經延宕了我們無人機發展的"},{"start":509.417,"end":529.196,"text":"成果所以這部分我的意思就是要有懲罰性的賠償這部分是不是可以在未來契約當中去做考慮我想我們預期的違約金已經在合約裡面已經有寫了然後另外我們也有沒入這個履約保證金這個應該就是屬於相關的這些賠償的部分"},{"start":530.285,"end":542.976,"text":"好我看起來國防部是就是說你會保證金就是把他沒收掉讓他也是有損失啊還有預期的那個罰款啊OK預期的罰款好所以希望說這個罰款也是能夠讓他知道說那個那個痛是讓他有損失是要夠的好謝謝好謝謝謝偉好謝謝"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:22:49.430000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:23:01.821000+08:00","text":"有請國防部長、經濟部次長，還有國發基金的執秘。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:23:02.001000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:23:03.202000+08:00","text":"好，請經濟部、國防部跟國發基金。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:23:12.382000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:23:13.163000+08:00","text":"劉委員好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:23:14.364000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:23:14.664000+08:00","text":"部長好。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:23:15.324000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:23:40.258000+08:00","text":"我們今天聯席審查國防自主無人載具採購特別條例，我們看到這是2,100億的特別預算，以行政院版來講，希望建構不對稱戰力並打造非紅供應鏈，我們都支持，但是支持國防自主並不代表要放棄預算的監督，我們更關心的是，是不是能夠讓無人機產業更自主且有韌性。","quality":0.881},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:23:40.278000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:24:09.050000+08:00","text":"我們知道目前無人機在臺灣產業鏈的部分，有世界級半導體資通訊，還有PCB及光電供應鏈的優勢，但是在高效率的馬達、電子變速器，還有高能量的密度電池，以及GNSS抗干擾模組的關鍵零組件當中，仍有相當程度要依賴國外供應。","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:24:09.050000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:24:28.908000+08:00","text":"我們想要問的是，可能先請教次長或者是部長，對於剛才所說在關鍵零組件有沒有去盤點零組件的關鍵自主能力，包括馬達ESC還有GNSS部分？","quality":0.823},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:24:30.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:24:48.567000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的很對，我們有一些技術的缺口，這些技術缺口我們都有把它盤點出來，而且我們有一個關鍵技術開發的路徑，從114年我們就用科技專案跟業者一起開發，透過法人、工研院等等。","quality":0.988},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:24:49.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:08.039000+08:00","text":"當然國防部會把需求告訴我們，國防部的需求裡面，必須要求的關鍵技術、關鍵零組件，如果業界的技術能力還沒有辦法達到這個程度的話，我們就透過科專補助的機制來協助業者提升能量。","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:08.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:15.583000+08:00","text":"好，我請問一下，目前這幾個關鍵技術的國產化比例是多少？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:17.283000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:31.694000+08:00","text":"我們在專案報告裡面有提到，我們有分小型、中型還有大型，小型無人機國產化的比例大概七成左右，中型大概六成，大型目前大概只有三成左右的比例。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:32.415000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:34.997000+08:00","text":"好，我們更想要關心的是……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:35.117000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:40.701000+08:00","text":"中科院的部分也可以，因為它的發展也跟在地產業鏈的形成有一些關係。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:40.701000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:41.701000+08:00","text":"可以請中科院簡單說明。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:40.701000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:40.861000+08:00","text":"好，請補充。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:43.579000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:53.131000+08:00","text":"我就拿我們的勁蜂一型攻擊無人機來講，它原本在國內的產值比例是95%，只差5%是通信的部分。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T11:25:54.012000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:25:59.559000+08:00","text":"通信部分我們也已經輔導國外廠商落地在臺生產，所以它現在全自製比例就是100%。","quality":1},{"speaker":"李院長世強","start":"2026-07-16T11:26:00.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:26:24.262000+08:00","text":"剛剛委員提到第一個高能量密度的電池，的確在兩年之前是國內比較缺陷的地方，但是在經濟部的科專補助之後，其實我們現在用的高能量電池幾乎都是我們自己的；另外我們從今年開始也在經濟部的統籌型計畫裡面獲得了10.8億的預算，這10.8億都在發展GNSS-Denied的技術，所以請委員放心。","quality":0.968},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:26:24.762000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:26:39.254000+08:00","text":"我想要更清楚了解的是，GNSS當然很重要，但是在整個條例當中，我們好像已經沒有看到研發還有設計的經費在這次編列的範圍，還是在經濟部裡面？","quality":0.841},{"speaker":"何次長晉滄","start":"2026-07-16T11:26:41.055000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:26:48.538000+08:00","text":"都編列在我們的統籌型計畫裡面，我們透過科技專案跟法人還有跟業界合作。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:26:49.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:26:50.178000+08:00","text":"好，這樣子可以理解。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:26:50.898000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:01.422000+08:00","text":"另外，國防部一直強調「戰時快速擴產」，但是如果我們是在戰時遇到封鎖的時候，這個快速擴產有沒有一些具體的配套措施？","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:01.602000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:20.918000+08:00","text":"戰時能夠擴產的基礎，就是我們不需要仰賴外部供應，因為我們是一個海島型的國家，我們的縱深比烏克蘭還要淺，所以我們當然要建立在無人載具這一塊能夠完全自主、在地生產，這是我們的目標。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:23.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:31.863000+08:00","text":"尤其有一些高階也許能量還不足，正是我們要透過長年的長單……","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:31.863000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:33.684000+08:00","text":"所以是跟國外購買的嗎？","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:33.684000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:48.872000+08:00","text":"我們長年的長單是促使廠商願意跟國外技術合作，最後能夠落地，這就是剛剛中科院也有提到的，這是我們現在想要達到的一些目標，因為無人載具的部分迭代創新都很快……","quality":0.915},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:49.132000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:49.372000+08:00","text":"我知道。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:49.572000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:52.413000+08:00","text":"所以一定要用長單的效應促使他願意投入更多。","quality":0.85},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:52.413000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:53.413000+08:00","text":"這部分我可以理解。","quality":0},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:27:52.433000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:27:55.155000+08:00","text":"但是我現在想到的是，請問國發基金的執秘，近年看到國發基金也有跟各部會一樣，投入大量的資源扶植無人機產業，但是也發生過一個採購程序跟委託研究案遭到監察院糾正的案例，請問政府是不是已經有全面檢討過去這個補助案、投資跟採購制度的缺失？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:20.066000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:31.496000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，國發基金從投前的評估、投資中的審議、投後的管理以及相關的機制，都在大院的要求之下，我們有提出9項精進的措施。","quality":0.868},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:31.816000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:38.642000+08:00","text":"但是我們現在看到創未來科技公司目前還在這部分，它有沒有退場？","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:38.642000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:43.126000+08:00","text":"或是拿到計畫的是不是已經有真正量產了？","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:43.126000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:43.506000+08:00","text":"這個資料是不是可以跟大家公布？","quality":1},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:46.280000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:49.402000+08:00","text":"是，創未來是幾個具有專業的大學教授出來創立的，當時我們在投資創未來的過程當中也是經過嚴格的審議，覺得這個部分對不管是……","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:28:49.422000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:28:49.782000+08:00","text":"但是國防部審查3次都沒有過。","quality":0.583},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:08.211000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:15.478000+08:00","text":"這一個部分，我們必須要尊重國防部在相關驗收的部分，國發基金比較不便評論。","quality":0.97},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:15.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:16.519000+08:00","text":"好，但是你們應該檢討機制，甚至是不是應該讓它退場，就是以後不具備這個條件了？","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"汪執行秘書庭安","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:23.854000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:26.076000+08:00","text":"是，我們會持續watch。","quality":1},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:26.256000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:31.220000+08:00","text":"這個部分是不是可以給本席一個報告，就是你們在處理這部分，包括國防部面對它到底出現什麼問題？","quality":0.976},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:32.041000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:32.642000+08:00","text":"為什麼會3次？是。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:33.482000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:40.869000+08:00","text":"如果照國發基金來講的話，認為管理會說他們前面具備這個條件，可是最後驗收3次不過，這個真的很誇張！","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:41.389000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:44.232000+08:00","text":"是不是請國防部針對這樣的……","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:44.232000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:29:57.963000+08:00","text":"國防部的部分，我們當時是公開招標，公開招標之後，它要能夠驗測通過，我們才會支付這個價金。","quality":0.949},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:29:58.623000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:08.271000+08:00","text":"現在依合約在交貨的時候要驗測，另外再兩次複驗不過就會進行解約，會罰款，也會沒收履約保證金。","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:10.212000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:11.673000+08:00","text":"看起來制度是有建立起來的，是好的。","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:13.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:21.294000+08:00","text":"我簡單再說一下，本黨還有一個重點是導入可信任的分級制度，包括落實懲罰性賠償。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:22.955000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:29.616000+08:00","text":"剛才部長有提到，每次都在階段性……如果驗收過就不付費，對不對？","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:29.616000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:34.817000+08:00","text":"但這已經延宕了我國無人機的發展，所以是不是要考慮啟動賠償機制？","quality":0.828},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:34.837000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:36.437000+08:00","text":"當然，鼓勵當然要鼓勵，但是不是也應該考慮建立賠償機制？","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:40.921000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:48.372000+08:00","text":"我們會依約處罰逾期的違約金，另外，履約保證金也會全部沒入。","quality":0.615},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:52.302000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:54.103000+08:00","text":"這樣就已經有懲罰的效果了？","quality":0.917},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:54.804000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:30:59.386000+08:00","text":"有沒有比較巨額性的、懲罰性的賠償？","quality":0.867},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:30:59.386000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:00.967000+08:00","text":"因為已經影響到國家了。","quality":0.7},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:02.608000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:10.353000+08:00","text":"我想這部分就是依合約走，因為合約的相關規範已經包括……我們沒有支付任何契約價金。","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:11.373000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:21.001000+08:00","text":"對，我的意思是它已經延宕了我們無人機的發展成果，所以這部分要有懲罰性賠償。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:21.321000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:24.324000+08:00","text":"可不可以在未來的契約中考慮？","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:26.426000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:37.176000+08:00","text":"逾期的違約金已經在合約裡面寫了，另外也會沒入履約保證金，這應該就是屬於相關賠償的部分。","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:39.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:42.749000+08:00","text":"看起來國防部就是把履約保證金沒收掉，讓它也是有損失……","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:43.009000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:44.390000+08:00","text":"還有逾期的罰款。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:45.431000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:45.892000+08:00","text":"逾期的罰款？","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:46.112000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:50.856000+08:00","text":"好，我希望罰款也能讓它知道痛，讓它是有損失的。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"劉委員書彬","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:50.916000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:50.936000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:50.956000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:50.956000+08:00","text":"謝謝委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:51.456000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:54.598857+08:00","text":"謝謝劉書彬委員，謝謝部長。","quality":0.182},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:31:54.898857+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:31:58.041714+08:00","text":"接下來請王定宇委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時23分）有請國防部長、經濟部次長，還有國發基金的執秘。"],["主席：好，請經濟部、國防部跟國發基金。"],["顧部長立雄：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：部長好。我們今天聯席審查國防自主無人載具採購特別條例，我們看到這是2,100億的特別預算，以行政院版來講，希望建構不對稱戰力並打造非紅供應鏈，我們都支持，但是支持國防自主並不代表要放棄預算的監督，我們更關心的是，是不是能夠讓無人機產業更自主且有韌性。我們知道目前無人機在臺灣產業鏈的部分，有世界級半導體資通訊，還有PCB及光電供應鏈的優勢，但是在高效率的馬達、電子變速器，還有高能量的密度電池，以及GNSS抗干擾模組的關鍵零組件當中，仍有相當程度要依賴國外供應。我們想要問的是，可能先請教次長或者是部長，對於剛才所說在關鍵零組件有沒有去盤點零組件的關鍵自主能力，包括馬達ESC還有GNSS部分？"],["何次長晉滄：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的很對，我們有一些技術的缺口，這些技術缺口我們都有把它盤點出來，而且我們有一個關鍵技術開發的路徑，從114年我們就用科技專案跟業者一起開發，透過法人、工研院等等。當然國防部會把需求告訴我們，國防部的需求裡面，必須要求的關鍵技術、關鍵零組件，如果業界的技術能力還沒有辦法達到這個程度的話，我們就透過科專補助的機制來協助業者提升能量。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我請問一下，目前這幾個關鍵技術的國產化比例是多少？"],["何次長晉滄：我們在專案報告裡面有提到，我們有分小型、中型還有大型，小型無人機國產化的比例大概七成左右，中型大概六成，大型目前大概只有三成左右的比例。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我們更想要關心的是……"],["顧部長立雄：中科院的部分也可以，因為它的發展也跟在地產業鏈的形成有一些關係。可以請中科院簡單說明。"],["劉委員書彬：好，請補充。"],["李院長世強：我就拿我們的勁蜂一型攻擊無人機來講，它原本在國內的產值比例是95%，只差5%是通信的部分。通信部分我們也已經輔導國外廠商落地在臺生產，所以它現在全自製比例就是100%。剛剛委員提到第一個高能量密度的電池，的確在兩年之前是國內比較缺陷的地方，但是在經濟部的科專補助之後，其實我們現在用的高能量電池幾乎都是我們自己的；另外我們從今年開始也在經濟部的統籌型計畫裡面獲得了10.8億的預算，這10.8億都在發展GNSS-Denied的技術，所以請委員放心。"],["劉委員書彬：我想要更清楚了解的是，GNSS當然很重要，但是在整個條例當中，我們好像已經沒有看到研發還有設計的經費在這次編列的範圍，還是在經濟部裡面？"],["何次長晉滄：都編列在我們的統籌型計畫裡面，我們透過科技專案跟法人還有跟業界合作。"],["劉委員書彬：好，這樣子可以理解。另外，國防部一直強調「戰時快速擴產」，但是如果我們是在戰時遇到封鎖的時候，這個快速擴產有沒有一些具體的配套措施？"],["顧部長立雄：戰時能夠擴產的基礎，就是我們不需要仰賴外部供應，因為我們是一個海島型的國家，我們的縱深比烏克蘭還要淺，所以我們當然要建立在無人載具這一塊能夠完全自主、在地生產，這是我們的目標。尤其有一些高階也許能量還不足，正是我們要透過長年的長單……"],["劉委員書彬：所以是跟國外購買的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們長年的長單是促使廠商願意跟國外技術合作，最後能夠落地，這就是剛剛中科院也有提到的，這是我們現在想要達到的一些目標，因為無人載具的部分迭代創新都很快……"],["劉委員書彬：我知道。"],["顧部長立雄：所以一定要用長單的效應促使他願意投入更多。"],["劉委員書彬：這部分我可以理解。但是我現在想到的是，請問國發基金的執秘，近年看到國發基金也有跟各部會一樣，投入大量的資源扶植無人機產業，但是也發生過一個採購程序跟委託研究案遭到監察院糾正的案例，請問政府是不是已經有全面檢討過去這個補助案、投資跟採購制度的缺失？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：跟委員報告，國發基金從投前的評估、投資中的審議、投後的管理以及相關的機制，都在大院的要求之下，我們有提出9項精進的措施。"],["劉委員書彬：但是我們現在看到創未來科技公司目前還在這部分，它有沒有退場？或是拿到計畫的是不是已經有真正量產了？這個資料是不是可以跟大家公布？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，創未來是幾個具有專業的大學教授出來創立的，當時我們在投資創未來的過程當中也是經過嚴格的審議，覺得這個部分對不管是……"],["劉委員書彬：但是國防部審查3次都沒有過。"],["汪執行秘書庭安：這一個部分，我們必須要尊重國防部在相關驗收的部分，國發基金比較不便評論。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是你們應該檢討機制，甚至是不是應該讓它退場，就是以後不具備這個條件了？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是，我們會持續watch。"],["劉委員書彬：這個部分是不是可以給本席一個報告，就是你們在處理這部分，包括國防部面對它到底出現什麼問題？為什麼會3次？"],["汪執行秘書庭安：是。"],["劉委員書彬：如果照國發基金來講的話，認為管理會說他們前面具備這個條件，可是最後驗收3次不過，這個真的很誇張！是不是請國防部針對這樣的……"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的部分，我們當時是公開招標，公開招標之後，它要能夠驗測通過，我們才會支付這個價金。現在依合約在交貨的時候要驗測，另外再兩次複驗不過就會進行解約，會罰款，也會沒收履約保證金。"],["劉委員書彬：看起來制度是有建立起來的，是好的。我簡單再說一下，本黨還有一個重點是導入可信任的分級制度，包括落實懲罰性賠償。剛才部長有提到，每次都在階段性……如果驗收過就不付費，對不對？但這已經延宕了我國無人機的發展，所以是不是要考慮啟動賠償機制？當然，鼓勵當然要鼓勵，但是不是也應該考慮建立賠償機制？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會依約處罰逾期的違約金，另外，履約保證金也會全部沒入。"],["劉委員書彬：這樣就已經有懲罰的效果了？有沒有比較巨額性的、懲罰性的賠償？因為已經影響到國家了。"],["顧部長立雄：我想這部分就是依合約走，因為合約的相關規範已經包括……我們沒有支付任何契約價金。"],["劉委員書彬：對，我的意思是它已經延宕了我們無人機的發展成果，所以這部分要有懲罰性賠償。可不可以在未來的契約中考慮？"],["顧部長立雄：逾期的違約金已經在合約裡面寫了，另外也會沒入履約保證金，這應該就是屬於相關賠償的部分。"],["劉委員書彬：看起來國防部就是把履約保證金沒收掉，讓它也是有損失……"],["顧部長立雄：還有逾期的罰款。"],["劉委員書彬：逾期的罰款？好，我希望罰款也能讓它知道痛，讓它是有損失的。好，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王定宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}