{"error":false,"id":["170513"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":170513,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/170513","日期":"2026-07-16","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":5,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[19,35,20],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會","外交及國防委員會","財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2026-07-16T11:32:02+08:00","結束時間":"2026-07-16T11:44:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:09","支援功能":["ai-transcript"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/c57864e9296d47759b4a51b17e0ab8511ac734a26d834dc4cd2db9a171d41d2cf8e03f26c378850b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"11:32:02 - 11:44:11","會議時間":"2026-07-16T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查：\n一、\t行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n二、\t本院委員林楚茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案。\n三、\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案。\n四、\t本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發展及採購條例草案」案。(僅詢答)(以上各案如未接獲院會交付審查之議事處來文，則不予審查)）","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.36596875,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.58471875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.20471875,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.57159375,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.37659375,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.01784375,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":34.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.400968750000004,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.80159375,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.079718750000005,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.87221875,"end":50.571593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.36471875,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.49096875,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.29659375000001,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.55784375,"end":59.633468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.45534375,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.32846875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":70.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.17596875000001,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.14096875,"end":79.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.69784375,"end":81.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.46971875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":89.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.92409375000001,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.99971875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.18096875,"end":95.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.31971875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.44159375000001,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.01909375000001,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.99346875,"end":109.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.93784375000001,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.13596875,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.68409375,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.87159375000002,"end":129.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.61409375,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.24221875,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.26721875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.50284375,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.19034375,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.90721875,"end":144.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.18534375000002,"end":146.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.50159375,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.95659375,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.23034375,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.91346875000002,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.46159375000002,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.23346875000001,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.93346875,"end":166.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.08909375000002,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.11784375000002,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":182.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.36096875,"end":185.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.85846875000001,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.64721875,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.35471875000002,"end":197.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.29534375,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.25284375,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.54784375000003,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":210.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.91784375,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.27096875,"end":220.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.23284375,"end":232.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.12534375,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.67346875,"end":236.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEA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麻煩國防部長請國防部部長是 王偉好 各位早我也請我們主席也上來啦因為現在我們的法制的問題今天我們在討論的是一個雞兔銅龍的問題什麼叫雞兔銅龍呢行政院版 也就是國防部版是我們國家"},{"start":41.633,"end":59.519,"text":"不對稱戰力無人機戰力不管是供應鏈的建立或者是戰力的建立所需要的一個採購的特別預算那預算在國防部採購是國防部五年兵整計畫我們的兵力規劃是國防部"},{"start":60.697,"end":76.176,"text":"那跟另外有一個無人機的發展條例要發展產業我個人不反對發展產業但這兩個預算編的部會不一樣啊所以基督不同隆總不能是經濟委員會來審預算然後這個預算將來國防部要來執行"},{"start":79.195,"end":92.445,"text":"所以行政院版跟藍白在野黨提出的版本本質上就不一樣這本質會凸顯在主管機關不同使用年限不同財務採購來入採購總有性質的不同"},{"start":96.388,"end":113.097,"text":"那我相信我從這幾個月在立法院還沒有聽到哪一黨的立委說不用發展無人機的有的是站在經濟面有的站在國防產業有的站在國防戰力大概社會的壓力也不容許立委"},{"start":114.077,"end":132.036,"text":"違背國家的利益去反對台灣應該發展無人機總是九萬個就業機會啊總是雙北、新竹、中張投、台南、高雄這麼多的無人機產業相關的業者新竹的控制元件都在那裡所以今天我要請教部長還有各位的就是"},{"start":133.328,"end":158.16,"text":"基於國家的共同利益基於憲法的法制我們是立法院還是要守著憲法的本質不同這樣子該怎麼來執行第一個我們來看光這一條我不知道我們在這個委員會並案審查怎麼可以並案審查行政院版的第二條主管機關是國防部在野黨版本的是經濟部預算編載國防部不會讓經濟部審"},{"start":162.304,"end":166.377,"text":"未來的執行規劃也是國防部那如果預算是在經濟部"},{"start":168.557,"end":194.518,"text":"你規劃出來的東西要讓國防部執行這很荒謬所以遇到主管機關這一條就決定往下走是什麼版本了如果主管機關是經濟部那國防部的版本整個就等於不見了如果主管機關是經濟部或者按照部會分工他走的是產業發展那跟我們無人機戰力發展就是不一樣的我不曉得部長跟我們謝局長"},{"start":196.414,"end":219.85,"text":"有關這一個條文 關主管機關你認為要怎麼辦 現在在並案審查欸我們總不能這麼多委員會在那邊審查 最後送出委員會又是國防部主管 又是經濟部主管 這要怎麼並案審查各位委員報告 我期待的是這樣子啦就是說行政院版的國防部的一個採購的部分那就以國防部為主管機關 然後來通過然後呢"},{"start":220.71,"end":237.18,"text":"另外有提出的這個產業發展的部分呢應該要將這個有關要納這個特別涉及到軍用無人載具的這個採購的這個所謂的每年要編列400億元的這個預算能夠拿掉也就是說專注於產業的發展產業發展那也有產業發展我們必須合憲合規去訂嘛我現在請教部長"},{"start":245.902,"end":263.023,"text":"在病案審查我們今天是大體的討論之前的詢答我也希望我們本會的同仁黨面對國家需求不管是產業或國家安全這跟黨派無關啊在場的主席 昭偉或者謝一鋒我們老同事你光遇到主管機關這兩條怎麼病案審查"},{"start":265.608,"end":280.87,"text":"應該是國防部的行政院版是一個版本這個是發展我們不是對稱戰力的應該在樓上301審查要發展無人產業甚至於無人產業不是只有會飛的我看到某一個黨的版本會飛的才算不會飛的都不算"},{"start":282.486,"end":303.753,"text":"那Boston Dynamic那個氏族的無人機人家在紐約都已經在送Uber了所以就是說那個版本在經濟委員會連審也沒有意見跟你併在一起我就要請教部長一個問題了如果在病人審查的時候把國防部主管機關就那一條就等於行政院版把你拿掉了完全走經濟部版的話國防部會有什麼想法"},{"start":307.182,"end":328.943,"text":"就國防部沒辦法接受就是說涉及國防採購的部分呢主管機關是經濟部然後還要會同國防部等等來如何如何國防採購由經濟部主管經濟委員會主審然後教我們國防部怎麼建軍這荒謬啊改天我國防委員會回來排審那個國立大學、私立大學相關的條例好不好"},{"start":331.134,"end":357.422,"text":"我們可以黨派不同但憲法是同一套啊立法院行之有年不能因為藍白聯手在1.25兆的國防特別預算把他無人機刪掉了國際盟友華藍國內產業跳腳人民反對民調低落就要演一齣戲演什麼戲我們也有無人機發展條例我們要趕快弄一個版本你也要國防部的我就偏偏不要你國防部的"},{"start":359.435,"end":376.737,"text":"黨派的鬥爭影響到國家利益這個是非常不應該的事情所以我們還是回到基督該怎麼同榮這是可以並存的第一個基於憲法法制還有國家需求本質不同應該分別審查"},{"start":378.238,"end":385.263,"text":"國防部行政院版的無人機的特別的採購的條例應該回到國防建軍這一塊透過長期穩定的預算的發展"},{"start":391.994,"end":415.249,"text":"來誘發來刺激國內願意投資因為國防採購確實是一筆大訂單那國內的業者願意花私人的資金建構產線符合標準來投標這好事情啊至於經濟委員會或在野黨的同仁希望要訂一個無人機產業的發展也很好啊你就訂一個發展條例嘛但是發展條例我就要提醒了根據我們的憲法"},{"start":416.448,"end":436.586,"text":"第70條 立法委員不能編列預算過去有一起編的原因是因為行政單位一起協商一起同意立法院用法律法律案 基金案用各種的案子來做預算增加支出在憲法第70條 釋憲第391號"},{"start":440.569,"end":457.095,"text":"通通都告訴你違憲了為什麼一直在玩違憲的東西呢如果經濟委員會要審查無人產業不是無人機喔不是只有飛的才叫無人機喔要審查無人產業的發展條例可以定可以定你不要把預算放進去"},{"start":458.154,"end":480.659,"text":"你訂了一個發展的策略的條例去規範行政單位向美國國會要求行政部門他們是總統制的每一年要回來就哪些法案的執行成效向立法院呈報策略的討論這OK如果真的要涉及所謂的2400億每年400億年度預算行政院編列年度預算哪需要特別條例"},{"start":481.619,"end":499.686,"text":"行政院編列年度預算本來就是你們編列的權立法權去干涉預算權違憲這是基本的ABC那如果真的要把預算寫進去可以找行政部門一起討論在行政部門協商同意下是可以的所以本期今天用這些時間"},{"start":501.047,"end":527.992,"text":"第一個提到就是我們國防部也就行政院版的無人機的條例是攸關國防戰力攸關國防產業攸關台美默契技術移轉如果主管機關不是國防部這個條例就不見了可是如果主管機關要留著國防部我不曉得在經濟委員會你病案審查的話這條文要怎麼審怎麼會放在這裡審這裡面充滿了政治的雜痕斑斑害了國家"},{"start":529.042,"end":551.493,"text":"另外一些小 我只是舉例子 瑕疵啊民眾黨版的第二條 定義無人機的條文有無人飛機 無人直升機 無人多旋翼機我建議這一條到時候要適度修改水面下 水面上 無人陀具 氏族無人機還有Humanoid 人型無人機都是在這個產業發展 指定這個太過狹隘"},{"start":552.413,"end":571.182,"text":"又比方國民黨的要求把列入年度預算400億一方面違憲二方面會有排擠效應更重要的是我們原來是一個採購案你把它弄成了聚落測試場域讓採購的額度大幅降低失去那誘因所以我最後請教部長如果"},{"start":575.343,"end":597.021,"text":"在野黨還是硬要只通過他們的版本等於用國會去編列預算用國會的立法權去侵害憲法明定的所謂的分權分治的行政權的預算編列權那你作為行政團隊的一份子或現場有沒有行政院的人那樣的法律可以實行嗎可以附屬嗎"},{"start":599.768,"end":619.384,"text":"行政院的年度預算就如剛剛委員所講的就是由行政院來做考量這個預算編列的權是在行政院不宜由立法機關來擬定一個所謂年度預算要編多少錢這樣解釋起來其實按照憲法還違憲那行政院也應該採取不附屬"},{"start":620.458,"end":642.352,"text":"因為如果一旦破了這個惡例以後立法院寫法律叫行政院我叫教育部編個三千億弄一間學校不能這樣做這不跟黨派無關這個在我們憲法的制度裡面它是有明文規定多次的釋憲文而且釋憲文的成立的時間也是在國民黨執政時期至於"},{"start":643.212,"end":671.952,"text":"這些要發展條例經濟部分的本席OK你們可以在經濟委員會這邊審查但可能要注意到時事的趨勢現在所謂的無人載具無人平台不會限制只會飛的啦設置意義只會飛的那這個產業大概就少了很大的一塊所以本席覺得遺憾我們也希望未來還有一次的詢答未來還有公聽會在經濟國防這個聯審的會議裡面行政院的版本"},{"start":672.913,"end":697.768,"text":"跟在野黨提出有關經濟部的版本本席具體建議委員會到時候不要併案 分成兩個案我們還可以符合法制來處理國防部的版本沒有啦 剛才前面的人也講很多了我馬上就講完了這個分案之後屬於國防部的採購的部分可以對金額有意見 可以對方向有意見但這個版本應該單獨"},{"start":699.434,"end":701.135,"text":"一包來做特別條例的通過"},{"start":729.802,"end":729.823,"text":"好"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}