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麻煩國防部長請國防部部長是 王偉好 各位早我也請我們主席也上來啦因為現在我們的法制的問題今天我們在討論的是一個雞兔銅龍的問題什麼叫雞兔銅龍呢行政院版 也就是國防部版是我們國家"},{"start":41.633,"end":59.519,"text":"不對稱戰力無人機戰力不管是供應鏈的建立或者是戰力的建立所需要的一個採購的特別預算那預算在國防部採購是國防部五年兵整計畫我們的兵力規劃是國防部"},{"start":60.697,"end":76.176,"text":"那跟另外有一個無人機的發展條例要發展產業我個人不反對發展產業但這兩個預算編的部會不一樣啊所以基督不同隆總不能是經濟委員會來審預算然後這個預算將來國防部要來執行"},{"start":79.195,"end":92.445,"text":"所以行政院版跟藍白在野黨提出的版本本質上就不一樣這本質會凸顯在主管機關不同使用年限不同財務採購來入採購總有性質的不同"},{"start":96.388,"end":113.097,"text":"那我相信我從這幾個月在立法院還沒有聽到哪一黨的立委說不用發展無人機的有的是站在經濟面有的站在國防產業有的站在國防戰力大概社會的壓力也不容許立委"},{"start":114.077,"end":132.036,"text":"違背國家的利益去反對台灣應該發展無人機總是九萬個就業機會啊總是雙北、新竹、中張投、台南、高雄這麼多的無人機產業相關的業者新竹的控制元件都在那裡所以今天我要請教部長還有各位的就是"},{"start":133.328,"end":158.16,"text":"基於國家的共同利益基於憲法的法制我們是立法院還是要守著憲法的本質不同這樣子該怎麼來執行第一個我們來看光這一條我不知道我們在這個委員會並案審查怎麼可以並案審查行政院版的第二條主管機關是國防部在野黨版本的是經濟部預算編載國防部不會讓經濟部審"},{"start":162.304,"end":166.377,"text":"未來的執行規劃也是國防部那如果預算是在經濟部"},{"start":168.557,"end":194.518,"text":"你規劃出來的東西要讓國防部執行這很荒謬所以遇到主管機關這一條就決定往下走是什麼版本了如果主管機關是經濟部那國防部的版本整個就等於不見了如果主管機關是經濟部或者按照部會分工他走的是產業發展那跟我們無人機戰力發展就是不一樣的我不曉得部長跟我們謝局長"},{"start":196.414,"end":219.85,"text":"有關這一個條文 關主管機關你認為要怎麼辦 現在在並案審查欸我們總不能這麼多委員會在那邊審查 最後送出委員會又是國防部主管 又是經濟部主管 這要怎麼並案審查各位委員報告 我期待的是這樣子啦就是說行政院版的國防部的一個採購的部分那就以國防部為主管機關 然後來通過然後呢"},{"start":220.71,"end":237.18,"text":"另外有提出的這個產業發展的部分呢應該要將這個有關要納這個特別涉及到軍用無人載具的這個採購的這個所謂的每年要編列400億元的這個預算能夠拿掉也就是說專注於產業的發展產業發展那也有產業發展我們必須合憲合規去訂嘛我現在請教部長"},{"start":245.902,"end":263.023,"text":"在病案審查我們今天是大體的討論之前的詢答我也希望我們本會的同仁黨面對國家需求不管是產業或國家安全這跟黨派無關啊在場的主席 昭偉或者謝一鋒我們老同事你光遇到主管機關這兩條怎麼病案審查"},{"start":265.608,"end":280.87,"text":"應該是國防部的行政院版是一個版本這個是發展我們不是對稱戰力的應該在樓上301審查要發展無人產業甚至於無人產業不是只有會飛的我看到某一個黨的版本會飛的才算不會飛的都不算"},{"start":282.486,"end":303.753,"text":"那Boston Dynamic那個氏族的無人機人家在紐約都已經在送Uber了所以就是說那個版本在經濟委員會連審也沒有意見跟你併在一起我就要請教部長一個問題了如果在病人審查的時候把國防部主管機關就那一條就等於行政院版把你拿掉了完全走經濟部版的話國防部會有什麼想法"},{"start":307.182,"end":328.943,"text":"就國防部沒辦法接受就是說涉及國防採購的部分呢主管機關是經濟部然後還要會同國防部等等來如何如何國防採購由經濟部主管經濟委員會主審然後教我們國防部怎麼建軍這荒謬啊改天我國防委員會回來排審那個國立大學、私立大學相關的條例好不好"},{"start":331.134,"end":357.422,"text":"我們可以黨派不同但憲法是同一套啊立法院行之有年不能因為藍白聯手在1.25兆的國防特別預算把他無人機刪掉了國際盟友華藍國內產業跳腳人民反對民調低落就要演一齣戲演什麼戲我們也有無人機發展條例我們要趕快弄一個版本你也要國防部的我就偏偏不要你國防部的"},{"start":359.435,"end":376.737,"text":"黨派的鬥爭影響到國家利益這個是非常不應該的事情所以我們還是回到基督該怎麼同榮這是可以並存的第一個基於憲法法制還有國家需求本質不同應該分別審查"},{"start":378.238,"end":385.263,"text":"國防部行政院版的無人機的特別的採購的條例應該回到國防建軍這一塊透過長期穩定的預算的發展"},{"start":391.994,"end":415.249,"text":"來誘發來刺激國內願意投資因為國防採購確實是一筆大訂單那國內的業者願意花私人的資金建構產線符合標準來投標這好事情啊至於經濟委員會或在野黨的同仁希望要訂一個無人機產業的發展也很好啊你就訂一個發展條例嘛但是發展條例我就要提醒了根據我們的憲法"},{"start":416.448,"end":436.586,"text":"第70條 立法委員不能編列預算過去有一起編的原因是因為行政單位一起協商一起同意立法院用法律法律案 基金案用各種的案子來做預算增加支出在憲法第70條 釋憲第391號"},{"start":440.569,"end":457.095,"text":"通通都告訴你違憲了為什麼一直在玩違憲的東西呢如果經濟委員會要審查無人產業不是無人機喔不是只有飛的才叫無人機喔要審查無人產業的發展條例可以定可以定你不要把預算放進去"},{"start":458.154,"end":480.659,"text":"你訂了一個發展的策略的條例去規範行政單位向美國國會要求行政部門他們是總統制的每一年要回來就哪些法案的執行成效向立法院呈報策略的討論這OK如果真的要涉及所謂的2400億每年400億年度預算行政院編列年度預算哪需要特別條例"},{"start":481.619,"end":499.686,"text":"行政院編列年度預算本來就是你們編列的權立法權去干涉預算權違憲這是基本的ABC那如果真的要把預算寫進去可以找行政部門一起討論在行政部門協商同意下是可以的所以本期今天用這些時間"},{"start":501.047,"end":527.992,"text":"第一個提到就是我們國防部也就行政院版的無人機的條例是攸關國防戰力攸關國防產業攸關台美默契技術移轉如果主管機關不是國防部這個條例就不見了可是如果主管機關要留著國防部我不曉得在經濟委員會你病案審查的話這條文要怎麼審怎麼會放在這裡審這裡面充滿了政治的雜痕斑斑害了國家"},{"start":529.042,"end":551.493,"text":"另外一些小 我只是舉例子 瑕疵啊民眾黨版的第二條 定義無人機的條文有無人飛機 無人直升機 無人多旋翼機我建議這一條到時候要適度修改水面下 水面上 無人陀具 氏族無人機還有Humanoid 人型無人機都是在這個產業發展 指定這個太過狹隘"},{"start":552.413,"end":571.182,"text":"又比方國民黨的要求把列入年度預算400億一方面違憲二方面會有排擠效應更重要的是我們原來是一個採購案你把它弄成了聚落測試場域讓採購的額度大幅降低失去那誘因所以我最後請教部長如果"},{"start":575.343,"end":597.021,"text":"在野黨還是硬要只通過他們的版本等於用國會去編列預算用國會的立法權去侵害憲法明定的所謂的分權分治的行政權的預算編列權那你作為行政團隊的一份子或現場有沒有行政院的人那樣的法律可以實行嗎可以附屬嗎"},{"start":599.768,"end":619.384,"text":"行政院的年度預算就如剛剛委員所講的就是由行政院來做考量這個預算編列的權是在行政院不宜由立法機關來擬定一個所謂年度預算要編多少錢這樣解釋起來其實按照憲法還違憲那行政院也應該採取不附屬"},{"start":620.458,"end":642.352,"text":"因為如果一旦破了這個惡例以後立法院寫法律叫行政院我叫教育部編個三千億弄一間學校不能這樣做這不跟黨派無關這個在我們憲法的制度裡面它是有明文規定多次的釋憲文而且釋憲文的成立的時間也是在國民黨執政時期至於"},{"start":643.212,"end":671.952,"text":"這些要發展條例經濟部分的本席OK你們可以在經濟委員會這邊審查但可能要注意到時事的趨勢現在所謂的無人載具無人平台不會限制只會飛的啦設置意義只會飛的那這個產業大概就少了很大的一塊所以本席覺得遺憾我們也希望未來還有一次的詢答未來還有公聽會在經濟國防這個聯審的會議裡面行政院的版本"},{"start":672.913,"end":697.768,"text":"跟在野黨提出有關經濟部的版本本席具體建議委員會到時候不要併案 分成兩個案我們還可以符合法制來處理國防部的版本沒有啦 剛才前面的人也講很多了我馬上就講完了這個分案之後屬於國防部的採購的部分可以對金額有意見 可以對方向有意見但這個版本應該單獨"},{"start":699.434,"end":701.135,"text":"一包來做特別條例的通過"},{"start":729.802,"end":729.823,"text":"好"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.046000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.206000+08:00","text":"謝謝主席。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.547000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.727000+08:00","text":"麻煩請國防部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.727000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.947000+08:00","text":"請國防部顧部長。","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:16.947000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:17.007000+08:00","text":"是，王委員。","quality":0.5},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:17.307000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:17.307000+08:00","text":"部長早。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:17.487000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.408000+08:00","text":"請主計局也上來，因為今天牽涉到法制問題。","quality":0.611},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.408000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:19.408000+08:00","text":"請主計局長。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.408000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.689000+08:00","text":"今天討論的是雞兔同籠的問題。","quality":0.846},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.689000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.829000+08:00","text":"什麼叫雞兔同籠？","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:32:18.869000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:33:01.499000+08:00","text":"行政院版也就是國防部版，是國家不對稱戰力、無人機戰力，是供應鏈建立或戰力建立所需要的採購特別預算，所以預算在國防部，採購是國防部，五年兵整計畫、兵力規劃是國防部。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:33:04.419000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:33:18.156000+08:00","text":"至於無人機發展條例則是要發展產業，我個人不反對發展產業，但這兩個預算編的部會不一樣，所以雞兔不同籠，總不能由經濟委員會審預算，然後預算由國防部來執行吧？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:33:21.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:33:34.425000+08:00","text":"所以行政院版跟藍白在野黨提出的版本本質上就不一樣；而本質會凸顯主管機關不同，且使用年限不同，勞務採購也有性質上的不同。","quality":0.909},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:33:40.809000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:33:51.415000+08:00","text":"這幾個月在立法院，我還沒有聽到有哪一黨的立委說不用發展無人機的，只是有的是站在經濟面，有的是站在國防產業，有的則站在國防戰力。","quality":0.897},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:33:53.276000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:10.953000+08:00","text":"我想社會壓力也不容許立委違背國家利益去反對，大家都認為臺灣應該發展無人機，總是有九萬個就業機會，總是有雙北、新竹、中彰投、臺南、高雄這麼多的無人機產業相關業者，甚至新竹的控制元件都在那裡。","quality":0.859},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:10.953000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:24.733000+08:00","text":"所以今天我要請教部長及各位的就是，基於國家的共同利益，基於憲法與法制，我們是立法院，還是要遵守憲法，因此，在本質不同的前提下，到底該怎麼執行？","quality":0.81},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:26.273000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:31.976000+08:00","text":"首先我們來看，光是這一條，我就不知道怎麼在委員會併案審查？","quality":0.731},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:32.296000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:33.117000+08:00","text":"怎麼可以併案審查？","quality":0.875},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:34.057000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:40.160000+08:00","text":"行政院版第二條主管機關是國防部，在野黨版本是經濟部，預算如果編在國防部，就不會讓經濟部審。","quality":0.902},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:44.304000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:54.300000+08:00","text":"再者，未來執行規劃的也是國防部，所以如果預算在經濟部，但規劃出來的東西要讓國防部執行，這很荒謬！","quality":0.86},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:34:54.300000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:34:59.685000+08:00","text":"所以只要遇到主管機關這一條，就可以決定往下走的是什麼版本了。","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:00.165000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:14.096000+08:00","text":"如果主管機關是經濟部，那麼國防部的版本就等於整個不見了；如果主管機關是經濟部，或者按照部會分工，走的是產業發展，如此跟無人機戰力發展是不一樣的！","quality":0.924},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:14.617000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:22.937000+08:00","text":"我不曉得部長跟謝局長對這條條文……光主管機關你認為要怎麼辦？","quality":0.889},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:22.937000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:23.898000+08:00","text":"現在是併案審查。","quality":0.714},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:24.978000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:32.383000+08:00","text":"總不能這麼多委員會審查，結果最後送出委員會的，又是國防部主管、又是經濟部主管，這要怎麼併案審查？","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:33.344000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:58.059000+08:00","text":"跟委員報告，我的期待是行政院版有關國防部的採購部分，就以國防部為主管機關來通過；另外，與產業發展有關，特別是涉及軍用無人載具採購，即每年要編列400億元預算這部分能拿掉，也就是說專注於產業的發展……","quality":0.885},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:58.199000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:35:58.659000+08:00","text":"即使是產業發展，也必須合憲合規去訂。","quality":0.812},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:35:58.699000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:36:19.356000+08:00","text":"我現在請教部長，在併案審查……今天是大體討論之前的詢答，我希望本會同仁都能面對國家需求，不管是產業或國家安全，這跟黨派無關。","quality":0.945},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:36:20.838000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:36:25.003000+08:00","text":"在場的主席、召委或謝衣鳯委員，大家都是老同事了，與主管機關有關的這兩條要怎麼併案審查？","quality":0.564},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:36:28.128000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:36:42.850000+08:00","text":"國防部的行政院版是一個版本，這是發展不對稱戰力的，這應該在樓上的紅樓301會議室審查；要發展無人產業……其實無人產業不是只有會飛的，但我看到某黨的版本寫會飛的才算，不會飛的都不算。","quality":0.861},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:36:44.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:36:50.008000+08:00","text":"不過Boston Dynamic在世足賽……Uber都把無人機拿到紐約去外送了！","quality":0.528},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:36:51.468000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:05.733000+08:00","text":"那個版本在經濟委員會聯審，我也沒有意見，可是現在併在一起審，那我就要請教部長一個問題了，如果併案審查時，把國防部為主管機關的條文從行政院版拿掉，完全走經濟部版，國防部有什麼想法？","quality":0.827},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:09.322000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:17.049000+08:00","text":"國防部沒辦法接受涉及國防採購的主管機關是經濟部，再會同國防部等等來如何如何……","quality":0.972},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:17.590000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:25.538000+08:00","text":"對，也就是國防採購由經濟部主管、經濟委員會主審，然後教國防部怎麼建軍……這荒謬啊！","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:26.118000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:30.923000+08:00","text":"改天外交及國防委員會來排審國立大學、私立大學等相關條例好不好？","quality":0.862},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:33.134000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:35.535000+08:00","text":"我們可以黨派不同，但憲法是同一套啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:36.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:52.740000+08:00","text":"這在立法院行之有年，不能因為藍白聯手在1.25兆的國防特別預算裡把無人機刪掉了，造成國際盟友譁然，國內產業跳腳，人民反對，民調低落就來演一齣戲！","quality":0.873},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:52.740000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:53.620000+08:00","text":"演什麼戲？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:37:53.620000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:37:59.402000+08:00","text":"我們也有無人機發展條例，趕快弄一個版本出來；你要國防部的，我就偏偏不要國防部的！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:38:01.435000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:38:10.327000+08:00","text":"讓黨派鬥爭影響到國家利益，這是非常不應該的，所以我們還是回到雞兔該怎麼同籠的問題來，這是可以並存的。","quality":0.826},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:38:10.587000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:38:18.717000+08:00","text":"第一個，基於憲法、法制，還有國家需求，本質不同就應該分別審查。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:38:20.238000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:38:55.167000+08:00","text":"國防部的行政院版無人載具採購特別條例應該回到國防建軍這一塊，透過長期穩定的預算來發展、誘發、刺激國內願意投資，畢竟國防採購確實是一筆大訂單，國內業者願意花私人資金建構產線、符合標準來投標，這是好事情；至於經濟委員會或在野黨的同仁希望能訂定無人機產業發展條例，這也很好，那就訂發展條例。","quality":0.863},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:38:55.267000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:39:02.091000+08:00","text":"但我要提醒，根據憲法第七十條規定，立法委員不能編列預算。","quality":0.8},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:39:04.333000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:39:23.889000+08:00","text":"過去之所以會一起編，是因為有行政單位一起協商、一起同意；但立法院用法律案、基金案，或用各種案子增加預算支出，那麼憲法第七十條、大法官釋憲第391號通通都告訴你違憲了！","quality":0.778},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:39:24.570000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:39:25.770000+08:00","text":"為什麼一直在玩違憲的東西？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:39:26.610000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:39:39.075000+08:00","text":"如果經濟委員會要審查無人產業……不是無人機，不是只有會飛的才叫無人機，要審查無人產業發展條例，可以訂，但不要把預算放進去！","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:39:40.154000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:39:54.217000+08:00","text":"你可以訂發展策略條例去規範行政單位，像美國國會要求行政部門，因為他們是總統制，所以每一年要回來就哪些法案的執行成效向國會呈報，大家做策略的討論，這OK。","quality":0.829},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:39:54.857000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:02.639000+08:00","text":"可是如果真的涉及所謂的2,400億，每年400億的年度預算，行政院編列年度預算哪需要特別條例？","quality":0.892},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:03.619000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:11.242000+08:00","text":"行政院編列年度預算本來就是你們的編列權，立法權去干涉預算編列權違憲，這是基本的ABC。","quality":0.925},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:12.223000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:19.726000+08:00","text":"如果真的要把預算寫進去，可以，找行政部門一起討論，在行政部門協商同意下是可以的。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:21.086000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:45.711000+08:00","text":"本席今天用這些時間，第一個提到我們國防部，也就是行政院版的無人機條例是攸關國防戰力，攸關國防產業，攸關臺美默契技術移轉，如果主管機關不是國防部，這個條例就不見了，可是如果主管機關要留國防部，我不曉得在經濟委員會併案審查的話，這個條文要怎麼審？","quality":0.964},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:45.711000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:47.191000+08:00","text":"怎麼會放在這裡審？","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:47.191000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:40:49.972000+08:00","text":"這裡面充滿了政治的鑿痕斑斑，害了國家。","quality":0.941},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:40:51.042000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:41:13.473000+08:00","text":"另外一些小瑕疵，我只是舉例子，比方民眾黨版的第二條，定義所謂無人機包含無人飛機、無人直升機、無人多旋翼機，我建議這一條到時候要適度修改，水面下、水面上無人馱具、四足無人機還有Humanoid人型無人機，都在這個產業發展範圍，只定這個太過狹隘。","quality":0.872},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:41:14.413000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:41:30.441000+08:00","text":"又比方國民黨的要求，把它列入年度預算400億，一方面違憲，二方面會有排擠效應，更重要的是我們原來是一個採購案，你把它弄成了聚落、測試場域，讓採購的額度大幅降低，失去那個誘因。","quality":0.973},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:41:31.761000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:41:58.781000+08:00","text":"我最後請教部長，如果在野黨還是硬要只通過他們的版本，等於用國會去編列預算，用國會的立法權去侵害憲法明定的、分權分治屬於行政權的預算編列權，你作為行政團隊的一分子，或現場有沒有行政院的人，那樣的法律可以實行嗎？","quality":0.969},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:41:58.781000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:41:59.021000+08:00","text":"可以副署嗎？","quality":0.6},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:42:01.768000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:42:17.281000+08:00","text":"我想行政院的年度預算，就如剛剛委員所講，就是由行政院考量，預算編列的權是在行政院，不宜由立法機關擬定一個所謂年度預算要編多少錢。","quality":0.966},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:42:17.281000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:42:31.924000+08:00","text":"所以這樣解釋起來，其實按照憲法他違憲，那行政院也應該採取不副署的做法，因為如果一旦破了這個惡例，以後立法院寫法律叫行政院、叫教育部編個3,000億弄一間學校，不能這樣做。","quality":0.878},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:42:32.704000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:42:43.571000+08:00","text":"這個跟黨派無關，這個在我們的憲法制度裡面有明文規定，還有多次的釋憲文，而且釋憲文的成立時間也是在國民黨執政時期。","quality":0.923},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:42:44.192000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:42:52.918000+08:00","text":"至於這些條例要發展經濟的部分，本席OK，你們可以在經濟委員會這邊審查，但可能要注意到時事的趨勢。","quality":0.932},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:42:52.918000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:01.123000+08:00","text":"現在所謂的無人載具、無人平臺不會只限於會飛的啦，只限於會飛的，那這個產業大概就少了很大的一塊。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:01.123000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:08.188000+08:00","text":"所以本席覺得遺憾，我們也希望未來還有一次詢答，未來還有公聽會。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:08.188000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:25.239000+08:00","text":"在經濟、國防聯審的會議裡面，行政院的版本跟在野黨提出有關經濟部的版本，本席具體建議委員會到時候不要併案，分成兩個案，我們還可以符合法制來處理……","quality":1},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:25.239000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:26.239000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:25.459000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:26.360000+08:00","text":"國防部的版本……","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:26.880000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:29.482000+08:00","text":"沒有，剛才前面的人也講很多了，我馬上就講完了。","quality":1},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:32.204000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:43.135000+08:00","text":"這個分案之後，屬於國防部採購的部分，可以對金額有意見，可以對方向有意見，但這個版本應該單獨一包以特別條例通過。","quality":0.98},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:43.135000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:43:57.468500+08:00","text":"至於在野黨提出的無人產業發展，包含被阻擋的鍾佳濱版本或已經通過付委的林楚茵版本，有關無人產業的版本，那是另外一包，可以併案討論，而那個併案討論的時候，請注意憲法對於預算權的規範。","quality":0},{"speaker":"王委員定宇","start":"2026-07-16T11:43:57.468500+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:44:11.802000+08:00","text":"那這樣兩個同時在這裡審查，分成兩案不要併案在一起，雞兔可以同籠，國家利益可以兼顧，這是本席的具體建議。謝謝。","quality":0},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:44:11.802000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:44:11.802000+08:00","text":"好，謝謝。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:44:12.302000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:44:15.159143+08:00","text":"接下來有請謝衣鳯委員。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（11時32分）謝謝主席。麻煩請國防部長。"],["主席：請國防部顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：是，王委員。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。請主計局也上來，因為今天牽涉到法制問題。"],["主席：請主計局長。"],["王委員定宇：今天討論的是雞兔同籠的問題。什麼叫雞兔同籠？行政院版也就是國防部版，是國家不對稱戰力、無人機戰力，是供應鏈建立或戰力建立所需要的採購特別預算，所以預算在國防部，採購是國防部，五年兵整計畫、兵力規劃是國防部。至於無人機發展條例則是要發展產業，我個人不反對發展產業，但這兩個預算編的部會不一樣，所以雞兔不同籠，總不能由經濟委員會審預算，然後預算由國防部來執行吧？所以行政院版跟藍白在野黨提出的版本本質上就不一樣；而本質會凸顯主管機關不同，且使用年限不同，勞務採購也有性質上的不同。","這幾個月在立法院，我還沒有聽到有哪一黨的立委說不用發展無人機的，只是有的是站在經濟面，有的是站在國防產業，有的則站在國防戰力。我想社會壓力也不容許立委違背國家利益去反對，大家都認為臺灣應該發展無人機，總是有九萬個就業機會，總是有雙北、新竹、中彰投、臺南、高雄這麼多的無人機產業相關業者，甚至新竹的控制元件都在那裡。","所以今天我要請教部長及各位的就是，基於國家的共同利益，基於憲法與法制，我們是立法院，還是要遵守憲法，因此，在本質不同的前提下，到底該怎麼執行？","首先我們來看，光是這一條，我就不知道怎麼在委員會併案審查？怎麼可以併案審查？","行政院版第二條主管機關是國防部，在野黨版本是經濟部，預算如果編在國防部，就不會讓經濟部審。再者，未來執行規劃的也是國防部，所以如果預算在經濟部，但規劃出來的東西要讓國防部執行，這很荒謬！所以只要遇到主管機關這一條，就可以決定往下走的是什麼版本了。","如果主管機關是經濟部，那麼國防部的版本就等於整個不見了；如果主管機關是經濟部，或者按照部會分工，走的是產業發展，如此跟無人機戰力發展是不一樣的！我不曉得部長跟謝局長對這條條文……光主管機關你認為要怎麼辦？現在是併案審查。總不能這麼多委員會審查，結果最後送出委員會的，又是國防部主管、又是經濟部主管，這要怎麼併案審查？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我的期待是行政院版有關國防部的採購部分，就以國防部為主管機關來通過；另外，與產業發展有關，特別是涉及軍用無人載具採購，即每年要編列400億元預算這部分能拿掉，也就是說專注於產業的發展……"],["王委員定宇：即使是產業發展，也必須合憲合規去訂。我現在請教部長，在併案審查……今天是大體討論之前的詢答，我希望本會同仁都能面對國家需求，不管是產業或國家安全，這跟黨派無關。","在場的主席、召委或謝衣鳯委員，大家都是老同事了，與主管機關有關的這兩條要怎麼併案審查？國防部的行政院版是一個版本，這是發展不對稱戰力的，這應該在樓上的紅樓301會議室審查；要發展無人產業……其實無人產業不是只有會飛的，但我看到某黨的版本寫會飛的才算，不會飛的都不算。不過Boston Dynamic在世足賽……Uber都把無人機拿到紐約去外送了！那個版本在經濟委員會聯審，我也沒有意見，可是現在併在一起審，那我就要請教部長一個問題了，如果併案審查時，把國防部為主管機關的條文從行政院版拿掉，完全走經濟部版，國防部有什麼想法？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部沒辦法接受涉及國防採購的主管機關是經濟部，再會同國防部等等來如何如何……"],["王委員定宇：對，也就是國防採購由經濟部主管、經濟委員會主審，然後教國防部怎麼建軍……這荒謬啊！改天外交及國防委員會來排審國立大學、私立大學等相關條例好不好？我們可以黨派不同，但憲法是同一套啊！這在立法院行之有年，不能因為藍白聯手在1.25兆的國防特別預算裡把無人機刪掉了，造成國際盟友譁然，國內產業跳腳，人民反對，民調低落就來演一齣戲！演什麼戲？我們也有無人機發展條例，趕快弄一個版本出來；你要國防部的，我就偏偏不要國防部的！讓黨派鬥爭影響到國家利益，這是非常不應該的，所以我們還是回到雞兔該怎麼同籠的問題來，這是可以並存的。","第一個，基於憲法、法制，還有國家需求，本質不同就應該分別審查。國防部的行政院版無人載具採購特別條例應該回到國防建軍這一塊，透過長期穩定的預算來發展、誘發、刺激國內願意投資，畢竟國防採購確實是一筆大訂單，國內業者願意花私人資金建構產線、符合標準來投標，這是好事情；至於經濟委員會或在野黨的同仁希望能訂定無人機產業發展條例，這也很好，那就訂發展條例。但我要提醒，根據憲法第七十條規定，立法委員不能編列預算。過去之所以會一起編，是因為有行政單位一起協商、一起同意；但立法院用法律案、基金案，或用各種案子增加預算支出，那麼憲法第七十條、大法官釋憲第391號通通都告訴你違憲了！為什麼一直在玩違憲的東西？如果經濟委員會要審查無人產業……不是無人機，不是只有會飛的才叫無人機，要審查無人產業發展條例，可以訂，但不要把預算放進去！你可以訂發展策略條例去規範行政單位，像美國國會要求行政部門，因為他們是總統制，所以每一年要回來就哪些法案的執行成效向國會呈報，大家做策略的討論，這OK。可是如果真的涉及所謂的2,400億，每年400億的年度預算，行政院編列年度預算哪需要特別條例？行政院編列年度預算本來就是你們的編列權，立法權去干涉預算編列權違憲，這是基本的ABC。如果真的要把預算寫進去，可以，找行政部門一起討論，在行政部門協商同意下是可以的。","本席今天用這些時間，第一個提到我們國防部，也就是行政院版的無人機條例是攸關國防戰力，攸關國防產業，攸關臺美默契技術移轉，如果主管機關不是國防部，這個條例就不見了，可是如果主管機關要留國防部，我不曉得在經濟委員會併案審查的話，這個條文要怎麼審？怎麼會放在這裡審？這裡面充滿了政治的鑿痕斑斑，害了國家。","另外一些小瑕疵，我只是舉例子，比方民眾黨版的第二條，定義所謂無人機包含無人飛機、無人直升機、無人多旋翼機，我建議這一條到時候要適度修改，水面下、水面上無人馱具、四足無人機還有Humanoid人型無人機，都在這個產業發展範圍，只定這個太過狹隘。又比方國民黨的要求，把它列入年度預算400億，一方面違憲，二方面會有排擠效應，更重要的是我們原來是一個採購案，你把它弄成了聚落、測試場域，讓採購的額度大幅降低，失去那個誘因。","我最後請教部長，如果在野黨還是硬要只通過他們的版本，等於用國會去編列預算，用國會的立法權去侵害憲法明定的、分權分治屬於行政權的預算編列權，你作為行政團隊的一分子，或現場有沒有行政院的人，那樣的法律可以實行嗎？可以副署嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想行政院的年度預算，就如剛剛委員所講，就是由行政院考量，預算編列的權是在行政院，不宜由立法機關擬定一個所謂年度預算要編多少錢。"],["王委員定宇：所以這樣解釋起來，其實按照憲法他違憲，那行政院也應該採取不副署的做法，因為如果一旦破了這個惡例，以後立法院寫法律叫行政院、叫教育部編個3,000億弄一間學校，不能這樣做。這個跟黨派無關，這個在我們的憲法制度裡面有明文規定，還有多次的釋憲文，而且釋憲文的成立時間也是在國民黨執政時期。至於這些條例要發展經濟的部分，本席OK，你們可以在經濟委員會這邊審查，但可能要注意到時事的趨勢。現在所謂的無人載具、無人平臺不會只限於會飛的啦，只限於會飛的，那這個產業大概就少了很大的一塊。所以本席覺得遺憾，我們也希望未來還有一次詢答，未來還有公聽會。在經濟、國防聯審的會議裡面，行政院的版本跟在野黨提出有關經濟部的版本，本席具體建議委員會到時候不要併案，分成兩個案，我們還可以符合法制來處理……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["王委員定宇：國防部的版本……","沒有，剛才前面的人也講很多了，我馬上就講完了。","這個分案之後，屬於國防部採購的部分，可以對金額有意見，可以對方向有意見，但這個版本應該單獨一包以特別條例通過。至於在野黨提出的無人產業發展，包含被阻擋的鍾佳濱版本或已經通過付委的林楚茵版本，有關無人產業的版本，那是另外一包，可以併案討論，而那個併案討論的時候，請注意憲法對於預算權的規範。那這樣兩個同時在這裡審查，分成兩案不要併案在一起，雞兔可以同籠，國家利益可以兼顧，這是本席的具體建議。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來有請謝衣鳯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}