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曾維也好部長 次長 院長還有主秘及局長今天要談烏克蘭無人載具快速創新供應以及採購機制場域法規解禁要如何助研發我們都知道周偉還有下次的排案我本人的版本要到下一次詢答的時候才有機會做提案說明因此我以下先就我的版本的一些關注角色來先請教一下各位"},{"start":84.605,"end":102.591,"text":"部長您剛才提到的就是無人載具的角色我想這個不是只談產業要先能保衛國家才有產業發展才有全球的和國際合作的市場是不是這樣子所以我想一定要符合我們的作戰需求是的那麼你認為在俄烏戰爭當中烏克蘭能夠扭轉劣勢這個無人載具是關鍵嘛"},{"start":109.571,"end":136.82,"text":"是 好 但是我們都知道在戰爭初期使用伊朗的見證者136改成天竺魁原型來攻擊烏克蘭的是俄羅斯但是為什麼到現在發展後來烏克蘭可以透過無人載具去扭轉整個戰局甚至他可以轟炸敵後的俄羅斯的煉油廠曾經司機開個說不拿領土換停火他有這麼大的底氣甚至傳出"},{"start":139.136,"end":144.93,"text":"德國還能夠砸9000萬的歐元他一次買5萬架的無人機這說明什麼"},{"start":145.919,"end":173.596,"text":"一定要先烏克蘭是在對抗軍事威脅求生存之後再採取不對稱戰力降低傷亡才能夠扭轉他人力規模的劣勢這是我們台灣可以學習的經驗所以底下我用我跟烏克蘭的交流經驗來跟大家分享現在圖片兩個是來自烏克蘭朝野不同政黨的國會議員這位帥氣的男生大男孩他不到30歲他是現任現役軍人他不開會的時候就回到了前線他送給我他們烏克蘭的備章"},{"start":175.037,"end":193.597,"text":"那但是呢另外這兩位在野黨的女士國會議員呢他們送我什麼不一樣他們拿槍流彈的彈殼做成的蠟燭啊送給我他表明說烏克蘭是在這樣的四年漫長的戰爭當中找到自己的生存之道而且呢還能夠持續的源源不斷的來支援前線全民來對抗"},{"start":195.399,"end":215.519,"text":"所以這是需要朝野共同合作在這裡也跟在場的召委主席和我們不同政黨的國會議員呼籲我們往下看那到底烏克蘭給我們什麼經驗呢首先傳統的軍武它因為是少數在生產其中規模龐大需要上萬個零件你看海昆號你看F16戰機而且技術基本上是壟斷的"},{"start":216.44,"end":242.421,"text":"所以先是有優勢的裝備 像我們過去的廣場採購才能籌編預算去對半去 大部分是對外採購但是烏克蘭這邊看到的是什麼是因為戰爭的需求 他們預算投入 產生大量的無人機後續的援助的資金挹注 以周圍單位去更新這才能符合實戰的需求我們來看看這樣的一個不對稱作戰同碩軍備採購的順序的思維也就是說剛剛部長所說的 要先有訂單"},{"start":243.542,"end":264.649,"text":"後面才有研發跟生產好 那我們來看一下大概是怎樣第一 我們希望未來參考烏克蘭經驗 購用合一要購買的跟使用的要一致我們看到的他們烏克蘭經驗是什麼他們的採購全部是集中的他們把部門的預算下放給基層的部隊指揮官由他們根據需求向民間採購所以非常的靈活"},{"start":265.569,"end":287.024,"text":"而且呢他們好不好用馬上就知道所以才能促進烏克蘭的多元供應而且呢迭代更新第一個問題國防部要去思考在非暫時的情況之下我們如何突破現有的採購法的限制做到不再由中科院認定供應商而能夠讓實際的基層使用者他獲得他們所需要的裝備這是第一個第二個"},{"start":289.227,"end":303.386,"text":"烏克蘭市全民接兵,這個兵不是上戰場全民在鑄造兵器、造飛機啊烏克蘭市有什麼情況?烏克蘭因為迭代更新很快有賴於他們的去中心化他們怕大工廠被轟炸轉型到公寓裡面的家庭工廠"},{"start":304.167,"end":319.745,"text":"他們的前線需求是直接後方也不遠直接工程師去溝通了解戰士的需求因此他是多元供應只有多元供應才能夠滿足未來無人載具在不正常作戰之下他的多元的需求這是第二個"},{"start":320.626,"end":343.276,"text":"第三個他們有教訓是什麼?場域空間、射頻元件、頻譜這些在烏克蘭作戰的時候,有一個NCC會去管制這些研發者的射頻訊號嗎?有一個民航局會去管制他們研發的時候,你不能到處亂飛嗎?沒有但是畢竟台灣不是啊,台灣現在不是在打仗啊我前不久才去參觀了一個反制無人機系統"},{"start":344.312,"end":358.93,"text":"他們呢是用三套設備他們第一個他們用被動偵測能夠偵測到7公里外的射頻訊號不只可以抓到無人機還可以抓到飛手但是再下來呢他就開始要做敵我識別之後他有一個龐大的"},{"start":359.775,"end":380.361,"text":"平埔的一個資料庫可以判斷這個無人機什麼樣子然後他在發動電子干擾用軟殺的方式讓他失去效能那如果遇到那種所謂影像自主導航的光學自主導航的沒有色頻訊號的他仍然有主動雷達毫米波雷達去偵測到讓他結合軍方的擊殺鏈透過物理的方式把他擊落"},{"start":381.221,"end":396.777,"text":"好了 他現在告訴我一個問題啦他們自己公司在研發的過程當中呢他要有紅隊的無人機來當作把擊他自己是藍隊 他用反制設備去捕捉請問他要在哪個地方做民安局 哪個空域可以讓這樣的公司去實作"},{"start":397.478,"end":424.915,"text":"NCC它所使用的這些評估跟色評元件有沒有經過你的核可最後呢還是民航局它的靶機根本不是市面上的它是研發的它要做對抗有經過你們的四航性測驗嗎所以不管是場域的開放測試還是設備評估的開放都需要法規去整合部長很簡單的說您說現在行政院有辦法做到這一點我很懷疑後面你排別那幾位不管是民航局也好速發部也好NC也好這些法令都還在啊"},{"start":425.595,"end":447.359,"text":"你在沒有一個法令的授權之下如何透過行政協調去解凍很簡單的方式來 部長請回答我想委員指教的很好那現在在台灣能夠找到這樣的一個場域空間然後一個比較乾淨的一個平樸的環境然後來做一個驗證這件事情確實是不容易但是行政院正在努力的"},{"start":448.139,"end":468.73,"text":"結合各部會來進行協調那我想也已經有一些相關的進度那這些有一些涉及到法規是不是要進一步鬆綁的問題還要在無人機的部分還要考慮到飛航安全的部分然後跟這個無人機的測試的這個部分結合所以有一些關於測試場域的一個尋獲然後這個測試場域"},{"start":471.912,"end":488.906,"text":"要如何快速的來進行申請 簡化他的申請的程序等等我想這些都在做靠部委的協調那如果委員要知道詳情的話 可能私下有這個中央院院長嗎 還是民進黨局局長 還是香港局局長來 部長 講結論在院裡面的層級裡面去處理的那個 部長 其實齁 這些業者我們都有在交流啦當然是無人艇"},{"start":497.506,"end":510.671,"text":"他就要到左營軍區透過軍方的協助因為如果說還要載上一個爆破的炸藥那更不用講民間根本不能取得嘛所以他的測試有很大的限制那現在"},{"start":511.806,"end":536.188,"text":"民航局的部分空域 航港局的部分海域單單一個無人艇要試航 要先載出去 不是開出去啊所以我覺得這個都限制到我們在無人載具發展過程當中的速度所以最後的結論這個我為什麼請部長 次長 院長 還有主秘跟局長一起來聽就是我們從烏克蘭經驗可以參酌 但烏克蘭跟我們不一樣我們多一個台灣海峽"},{"start":537.009,"end":552.321,"text":"其實烏克蘭初期的陸戰FPV取代了裝甲載具這個戰場 初期不會出現但是我們擔心的是恐攻第五縱隊在海峽封鎖之前 他們就要我們搞社會破壞對我們的關鍵基礎設施進行無人機的恐攻"},{"start":553.241,"end":570.275,"text":"這些都是未來包括國防部跟行政院整個部會我要去思考的所以我的主張想結論儘速通過正願版的採購金額跟品項確保國防部可以建構無人載具的戰力但是也希望未來國防部跟各部會要採購的機制要多元彈性要能夠授權給實際操作的"},{"start":571.736,"end":591.53,"text":"部隊去決定它採購的需求這是烏克蘭的戰場經驗所換來的一個血淋淋的教訓最後我們去中心化分散性的思考要增強無人機載具的供應鏈的韌性要給它場域給它頻譜給它原件的開放它才能夠研發跟測驗我們未來不希望有一個中科院主導了所有的無人載具的研發烏克蘭沒有這樣的機構"},{"start":594.452,"end":617.993,"text":"烏克蘭是全民皆兵全部的中小企業都投入這樣的研發創造生產他們的工程師日新月異兩週一週就迭代那我不認為這樣的一個情況在現有的國防部中科院的體制下能夠完成希望未來部長能夠回去我們支持行政院但是也希望未來在相關的制度上能夠參著借鏡烏克蘭人的經驗我們做一些符合台灣的必要調整部長可以嗎"},{"start":620.625,"end":639.096,"text":"所以我們會在這個採購計畫裡面這會有一個回饋的機制然後來創造 當然我們沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣 我們會有演訓 然後我們會有這個收集國際的商情 那我們會有各單位的意見的回饋 那我們會在這個平台上面來"},{"start":639.937,"end":648.813,"text":"進一步要求廠商能夠做一個快速的迭代更新這樣子謝謝部長 因為主席站起來最後請民防局局長要取得你親口的承諾民防局局長請"},{"start":650.714,"end":678.812,"text":"因為當年在2017年我們民航空法的無人機專章是您主導去著手炒你的那時候本席也是在交通委員會那是遙控無人機那是空拍機是農噴機是250公克以上25公斤以下現在我們的無人載具已經在對岸可以有舉起四軸八旋翼可以舉起100公斤的無人載具國內有研發可以得到市場的許可嗎現在的法令很難"},{"start":679.753,"end":705.367,"text":"所以民用航空法我會再找時間跟你好好的討論要趕快突破這些限制我們台灣非常有活力跟創造力的研發能量才不會被我們的法規束縛所窒息可以答應嗎這個報告委員這個沒問題這個我們再跟委員報告好 那我在這裡也謝謝我們召委希望下次排行的時候本席的版本有機會來做提案說明也能夠就教於我們各界 謝謝好 謝謝鍾教授"}],"gazette":[{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:54:43.163000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:54:47.667000+08:00","text":"主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府相關員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。","quality":0.9},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:54:48.488000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:02.960000+08:00","text":"有請國防部顧部長、經濟部何次長，以及數發部的陳主秘、民航局的何局長，同時也請中科院李院長協助部長。","quality":0.886},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:04.221000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:15.987000+08:00","text":"請經濟部、國防部、中科院、數發部還有交通部。","quality":0.722},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:15.987000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:20.190000+08:00","text":"鍾委員好。","quality":0.25},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:20.190000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:41.405000+08:00","text":"部長、次長、院長、主秘及局長，今天要談烏克蘭無人載具快速創新供應，以及採購機制、場域法規解禁要如何助研發，我們都知道召委還有下次的排案，我本人的版本要到下一次詢答的時候才有機會作提案說明，因此以下我先就我的版本一些關注的角色來請教一下各位。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:42.605000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:54.549000+08:00","text":"部長，您剛才提到無人載具的角色，我想這個不是只談產業，要先能保衛國家才有產業發展，才有全球的國際合作市場，是不是這樣子？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:55.829000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:55:58.110000+08:00","text":"是，我想一定要符合我們的作戰需求。","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:55:58.290000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:56:07.571000+08:00","text":"是的，那麼你認為在俄烏戰爭當中，烏克蘭能夠扭轉劣勢，無人載具是關鍵？是。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:56:07.931000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:56:30.039000+08:00","text":"好，但是我們都知道，在戰爭初期，使用伊朗的見證者-136改成天竺葵原型來攻擊烏克蘭的是俄羅斯，但是為什麼發展到現在，烏克蘭可以透過無人載具去扭轉整個戰局，甚至可以轟炸俄羅斯敵後的煉油廠？","quality":0.939},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:56:31.219000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:56:34.580000+08:00","text":"澤倫斯基開始說不拿領土換停火，他有這麼大的底氣！","quality":0.773},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:56:34.580000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:56:42.930000+08:00","text":"甚至還傳出德國還能夠砸9,000萬的歐元，一次買5萬架的無人機，這說明什麼？","quality":0.933},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:56:45.120000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:56:55.526000+08:00","text":"烏克蘭是在對抗軍事威脅，求生存之後，再採取不對稱戰力，降低傷亡，才能夠扭轉他人力規模的劣勢，這是我們臺灣可以學習的經驗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:56:55.526000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:57:17.942000+08:00","text":"所以底下我用我跟烏克蘭的交流經驗來跟大家分享，現在這兩個圖片是來自烏克蘭朝野不同政黨的國會議員，這位帥氣的大男孩不到30歲，他是現役軍人，他不開會的時候就回到前線，他送給我他們烏克蘭的臂章，但是另外在野黨的國會議員這兩位女士，他們送我什麼？","quality":0.918},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:57:17.942000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:57:34.921000+08:00","text":"不一樣，他們拿槍榴彈的彈殼做成的蠟燭送給我，表明烏克蘭是在這樣4年漫長戰爭當中找到自己的生存之道，而且還能夠持續的、源源不斷的來支援前線，全民來對抗，所以這需要朝野共同合作。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:57:35.121000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:57:38.764000+08:00","text":"在這裡也呼籲在場的召委、主席和我們不同政黨的國會議員。","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:57:39.505000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:57:41.928000+08:00","text":"我們往下看，到底烏克蘭給我什麼經驗呢？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:57:42.508000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:58:03.207000+08:00","text":"首先，傳統的軍武因為是少數在生產，生產集中，規模龐大，需要上萬個零件，你看海鯤號，你看F-16戰機，而且技術基本上是壟斷的，所以先是有優勢的裝備，像我們過去的國防採購，才能籌編預算去對辦，大部分是對外採購，但是從烏克蘭這邊看到什麼？","quality":0.92},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:58:03.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:58:12.435000+08:00","text":"是因為戰爭的需求，他們投入預算生產大量的無人機、後續的援助資金挹注，以週為單位去更新，這才能符合實戰的需求。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:58:12.875000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:58:23.323000+08:00","text":"我們來看看這樣的一個不對稱作戰，重塑軍備採購順序的思維，也就是剛剛部長所說的，要先有訂單，後面才有研發跟生產。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:58:23.323000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:58:49.934000+08:00","text":"好，那我們來看一下大概是怎樣，第一、參考烏克蘭經驗，我們希望未來要購用合一，購買的跟使用的要一致，我們看到烏克蘭的採購全部是集中的，他們把部分的預算下放給基層的部隊指揮官，由他們根據需求向民間採購，所以非常的靈活，而且好不好用馬上就知道，所以才能促進烏克蘭的多元供應，而且迭代更新。","quality":0.938},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:58:50.234000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:04.984000+08:00","text":"第一個問題，國防部要去思考，在非戰時的情況之下，我們如何突破現有採購法的限制，做到不再由中科院認定供應商，而能夠讓實際的基層使用者獲得他們所需要的裝備，這是第一個。","quality":0.987},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:04.984000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:37.745000+08:00","text":"第二、烏克蘭是全民皆兵，這個兵不是上戰場，而是全民在鑄造兵器、造飛機，烏克蘭因為迭代更新很快，有賴於他們的去中心化，他們怕大工廠被轟炸，轉型到公寓裡面的家庭工廠，他們的前線需求是直接由後方，也不遠，工程師直接去溝通，了解戰事的需求，因此他們是多元供應，只有多元供應才能夠滿足未來無人載具在不對稱作戰之下它的多元需求，這是第二個。","quality":0.919},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:38.626000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:40.787000+08:00","text":"第三、他們給我的教訓是什麼？","quality":0.75},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:40.787000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:50.391000+08:00","text":"場域空間、射頻元件、頻譜這些，在烏克蘭作戰的時候，有一個NCC會去管制這些研發者的射頻訊號嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:50.391000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:55.053000+08:00","text":"有一個民航局會去管制他們研發的時候不能到處亂飛嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:55.053000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:57.214000+08:00","text":"沒有，但畢竟臺灣不是啊！","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:57.434000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T11:59:58.194000+08:00","text":"臺灣現在不是在打仗。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T11:59:59.195000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:12.745000+08:00","text":"我前不久才去參觀了一個反制無人機系統，他們是用3套設備，第一個是用被動偵測，能夠偵測到7公里外的射頻訊號，不只可以抓到無人機，還可以抓到飛手。","quality":0.984},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:00:13.646000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:25.337000+08:00","text":"但是接下來開始要做敵我識別，有一個龐大的頻譜資料庫可以判斷這個無人機是什麼樣子，然後再發動電子干擾、用軟殺的方式讓它失去效能。","quality":0.898},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:00:26.177000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:38.341000+08:00","text":"如果遇到那種所謂影像自主導航、光學自主導航、沒有射頻訊號的，其仍然有主動雷達、毫米波雷達去偵測，結合軍方的擊殺鏈，透過物理方式把它擊落。","quality":0.951},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:00:39.842000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:51.374000+08:00","text":"現在有個問題，他們公司在研發過程當中，要有紅隊無人機當作靶機，他自己是藍隊，用反制設備去捕捉，請問他要在哪個地方做？","quality":0.942},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:00:52.115000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:54.757000+08:00","text":"民航局，哪個空域可以讓這樣的公司去實作？","quality":0.944},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:00:55.478000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:00:59.581000+08:00","text":"NCC，他所使用的這些頻譜跟射頻元件，有沒有經過你的核可？","quality":0.808},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:00.141000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:07.045000+08:00","text":"最後，還是民航局，他的靶機根本不是市面上的、他自己研發的，他要做對抗，有經過你們的適航性測驗嗎？","quality":0.857},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:07.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:12.148000+08:00","text":"所以不管是場域的開放測試或設備頻譜的開放，都需要法規去整合。","quality":0.893},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:12.528000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:16.691000+08:00","text":"部長，很簡單地說，您說現在行政院有辦法做到這一點，我很懷疑。","quality":0.962},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:17.151000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:22.895000+08:00","text":"後面那幾位，不管是民航局也好，數發部、NCC也好，這些法令都還在啊！","quality":0.931},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:23.595000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:28.160000+08:00","text":"你沒有一個法令的授權，如何透過行政協調去解凍？","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:28.160000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:29.982000+08:00","text":"很簡單的方式，部長請回答。","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:31.624000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:01:50.862000+08:00","text":"委員指教得很好，現在在臺灣能夠找到這樣的場域空間、比較乾淨的一個頻譜環境來做驗證，這件事情確實不容易，但是行政院正在努力結合各部會進行協調，也已經有一些相關進度。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:01:52.983000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:17.038000+08:00","text":"有些涉及到法規是不是要進一步鬆綁的問題，在無人機部分還要考慮到飛航安全，跟無人機測試這部分結合，所以關於測試場域的尋獲，以及測試場域要如何快速進行申請，簡化申請程序等等，這些都在做跨部會協調。","quality":0.955},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:17.338000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:19.920000+08:00","text":"如果委員要知道詳情的話，可能私下由相關部會再跟你……","quality":0.652},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:21.922000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:23.423000+08:00","text":"中科院院長嗎？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:23.423000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:24.844000+08:00","text":"還是民航局局長、航港局局長？","quality":0.833},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:24.844000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:24.864000+08:00","text":"部長，講結論……","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:24.864000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:25.685000+08:00","text":"沒有，應該是在院裡面的層級去處理的。","quality":0.688},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:25.805000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:47.330000+08:00","text":"部長，其實這些業者我們都有在交流，單單無人艇，就要到左營軍區透過軍方協助，如果還要載上爆破炸藥，那更不用講，民間根本不能取得，所以它的測試有很大的限制。","quality":0.956},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:48.651000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:02:58.374000+08:00","text":"現在民航局的部分──空域；航港局的部分──海域，單單一個無人艇要試航，要先載出去，不是開出去啊！","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:02:59.275000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:02.778000+08:00","text":"我覺得這都限制到我們在無人載具發展過程當中的速度。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:05.681000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:10.185000+08:00","text":"我為什麼請部長、次長、院長、主秘及局長一起來聽？","quality":0.95},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:10.185000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:12.347000+08:00","text":"就在於烏克蘭的經驗我們可以參酌。","quality":0.667},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:12.347000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:35.445000+08:00","text":"但烏克蘭跟我們不一樣，我們有一個臺灣海峽，其實烏克蘭初期的陸戰，FPV取代裝甲載具，這個戰場初期不會出現，但我們擔心的是恐攻第五縱隊，在海峽封鎖之前他們就搞設備破壞，對我們的關鍵基礎設施進行無人機恐攻，這些都是未來包括國防部跟行政院整個部會要思考的。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:37.666000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:42.190000+08:00","text":"儘速通過院版採購金額、品項，確保國防部建構無人載具戰力。","quality":0.96},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:42.771000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:03:56.501000+08:00","text":"但是也希望未來國防部跟各部會，採購機制要多元彈性，授權實際操作的部隊決定採購需求，這是烏克蘭戰場的經驗所換來的一個血淋淋的教訓。","quality":0.983},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:03:56.501000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:06.308000+08:00","text":"最後，我們去中心化、分散性思考，增強無人機載具供應鏈韌性，要給場域、頻譜、元件開放，它才能夠研發跟測驗。","quality":0.977},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:06.308000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:25.424000+08:00","text":"未來我們不希望由一個中科院主導了所有的無人載具研發，烏克蘭沒有這樣的機構，烏克蘭是全民皆兵，全部的中小企業都投入研發創造跟生產，他們的工程師日新月異，兩週、一週就迭代，而我不認為這樣的一個情況，在現有國防部、中科院的體制下能夠完成。","quality":0.953},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:28.286000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:35.433000+08:00","text":"我們支持行政院，但是也希望未來在相關制度上，能夠參酌、借鏡烏克蘭的經驗，符合臺灣狀況做必要調整。","quality":0.907},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:35.893000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:35.993000+08:00","text":"部長可以嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:39.045000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:47.530000+08:00","text":"我們在這個採購計畫裡面，會有一個回饋機制，然後來創造……當然我們沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣有實戰……","quality":0.927},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:47.530000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:04:48.530000+08:00","text":"我們沒有在打仗。","quality":0},{"speaker":"顧部長立雄","start":"2026-07-16T12:04:47.530000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:01.924000+08:00","text":"我們會有演訓，收集國際商品，會有各單位的意見回饋，我們在這個平臺上面，進一步要求廠商能夠快速地迭代更新。","quality":0.957},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:02.585000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:02.786000+08:00","text":"謝謝部長。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:02.786000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:06.813000+08:00","text":"因為主席站起來了，最後請民航局局長，要取得你親口的承諾，民航局局長請。","quality":0.903},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:08.714000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:16.640000+08:00","text":"何局長，因為在當年，2017年我們民用航空法的無人機專章是您主導著手草擬的，那時候本席也在交通委員會。","quality":0.837},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:16.640000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:23.604000+08:00","text":"那是遙控無人機，是空拍機、農噴機，是250公克以上25公斤以下。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:24.665000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:35.712000+08:00","text":"現在無人機載具，在對岸採用四軸八旋翼已經可以舉起100公斤，國內有研發，可以得到適航許可嗎？","quality":0.821},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:35.712000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:49.680000+08:00","text":"以現有的法令很難，所以就民用航空法，我會再找時間跟你好好討論，要趕快突破這些限制，讓臺灣非常有活力跟創造力的研發能量才不會被我們的法規束縛而窒息。","quality":0.926},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:49.980000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:51.661000+08:00","text":"可以答應嗎？","quality":1},{"speaker":"何局長淑萍","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:51.661000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:05:54.402000+08:00","text":"報告委員，這個沒問題，我們再跟委員報告。","quality":1},{"speaker":"鍾委員佳濱","start":"2026-07-16T12:05:55.703000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:06:03.067000+08:00","text":"我在這裡也謝謝召委，希望下次排案的時候，本席的版本有機會做提案說明，也能夠就教於各界。","quality":0.974},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:06:03.207000+08:00","guessed":false,"end":"2026-07-16T12:06:03.227000+08:00","text":"謝謝鍾佳濱委員、謝謝各機關。","quality":0.333},{"speaker":"主席","start":"2026-07-16T12:06:03.727000+08:00","guessed":true,"end":"2026-07-16T12:06:06.584143+08:00","text":"接下來陳俊宇委員質詢。","quality":0}]},"gazette":{"lineno":771,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時54分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府相關員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請國防部顧部長、經濟部何次長，以及數發部的陳主秘、民航局的何局長，同時也請中科院李院長協助部長。"],["主席：請經濟部、國防部、中科院、數發部還有交通部。"],["顧部長立雄：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長、次長、院長、主秘及局長，今天要談烏克蘭無人載具快速創新供應，以及採購機制、場域法規解禁要如何助研發，我們都知道召委還有下次的排案，我本人的版本要到下一次詢答的時候才有機會作提案說明，因此以下我先就我的版本一些關注的角色來請教一下各位。部長，您剛才提到無人載具的角色，我想這個不是只談產業，要先能保衛國家才有產業發展，才有全球的國際合作市場，是不是這樣子？"],["顧部長立雄：是，我想一定要符合我們的作戰需求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，那麼你認為在俄烏戰爭當中，烏克蘭能夠扭轉劣勢，無人載具是關鍵？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是我們都知道，在戰爭初期，使用伊朗的見證者-136改成天竺葵原型來攻擊烏克蘭的是俄羅斯，但是為什麼發展到現在，烏克蘭可以透過無人載具去扭轉整個戰局，甚至可以轟炸俄羅斯敵後的煉油廠？澤倫斯基開始說不拿領土換停火，他有這麼大的底氣！甚至還傳出德國還能夠砸9,000萬的歐元，一次買5萬架的無人機，這說明什麼？烏克蘭是在對抗軍事威脅，求生存之後，再採取不對稱戰力，降低傷亡，才能夠扭轉他人力規模的劣勢，這是我們臺灣可以學習的經驗。所以底下我用我跟烏克蘭的交流經驗來跟大家分享，現在這兩個圖片是來自烏克蘭朝野不同政黨的國會議員，這位帥氣的大男孩不到30歲，他是現役軍人，他不開會的時候就回到前線，他送給我他們烏克蘭的臂章，但是另外在野黨的國會議員這兩位女士，他們送我什麼？不一樣，他們拿槍榴彈的彈殼做成的蠟燭送給我，表明烏克蘭是在這樣4年漫長戰爭當中找到自己的生存之道，而且還能夠持續的、源源不斷的來支援前線，全民來對抗，所以這需要朝野共同合作。在這裡也呼籲在場的召委、主席和我們不同政黨的國會議員。","我們往下看，到底烏克蘭給我什麼經驗呢？首先，傳統的軍武因為是少數在生產，生產集中，規模龐大，需要上萬個零件，你看海鯤號，你看F-16戰機，而且技術基本上是壟斷的，所以先是有優勢的裝備，像我們過去的國防採購，才能籌編預算去對辦，大部分是對外採購，但是從烏克蘭這邊看到什麼？是因為戰爭的需求，他們投入預算生產大量的無人機、後續的援助資金挹注，以週為單位去更新，這才能符合實戰的需求。我們來看看這樣的一個不對稱作戰，重塑軍備採購順序的思維，也就是剛剛部長所說的，要先有訂單，後面才有研發跟生產。好，那我們來看一下大概是怎樣，第一、參考烏克蘭經驗，我們希望未來要購用合一，購買的跟使用的要一致，我們看到烏克蘭的採購全部是集中的，他們把部分的預算下放給基層的部隊指揮官，由他們根據需求向民間採購，所以非常的靈活，而且好不好用馬上就知道，所以才能促進烏克蘭的多元供應，而且迭代更新。第一個問題，國防部要去思考，在非戰時的情況之下，我們如何突破現有採購法的限制，做到不再由中科院認定供應商，而能夠讓實際的基層使用者獲得他們所需要的裝備，這是第一個。第二、烏克蘭是全民皆兵，這個兵不是上戰場，而是全民在鑄造兵器、造飛機，烏克蘭因為迭代更新很快，有賴於他們的去中心化，他們怕大工廠被轟炸，轉型到公寓裡面的家庭工廠，他們的前線需求是直接由後方，也不遠，工程師直接去溝通，了解戰事的需求，因此他們是多元供應，只有多元供應才能夠滿足未來無人載具在不對稱作戰之下它的多元需求，這是第二個。第三、他們給我的教訓是什麼？場域空間、射頻元件、頻譜這些，在烏克蘭作戰的時候，有一個NCC會去管制這些研發者的射頻訊號嗎？有一個民航局會去管制他們研發的時候不能到處亂飛嗎？沒有，但畢竟臺灣不是啊！臺灣現在不是在打仗。","我前不久才去參觀了一個反制無人機系統，他們是用3套設備，第一個是用被動偵測，能夠偵測到7公里外的射頻訊號，不只可以抓到無人機，還可以抓到飛手。但是接下來開始要做敵我識別，有一個龐大的頻譜資料庫可以判斷這個無人機是什麼樣子，然後再發動電子干擾、用軟殺的方式讓它失去效能。如果遇到那種所謂影像自主導航、光學自主導航、沒有射頻訊號的，其仍然有主動雷達、毫米波雷達去偵測，結合軍方的擊殺鏈，透過物理方式把它擊落。","現在有個問題，他們公司在研發過程當中，要有紅隊無人機當作靶機，他自己是藍隊，用反制設備去捕捉，請問他要在哪個地方做？民航局，哪個空域可以讓這樣的公司去實作？NCC，他所使用的這些頻譜跟射頻元件，有沒有經過你的核可？最後，還是民航局，他的靶機根本不是市面上的、他自己研發的，他要做對抗，有經過你們的適航性測驗嗎？所以不管是場域的開放測試或設備頻譜的開放，都需要法規去整合。","部長，很簡單地說，您說現在行政院有辦法做到這一點，我很懷疑。後面那幾位，不管是民航局也好，數發部、NCC也好，這些法令都還在啊！你沒有一個法令的授權，如何透過行政協調去解凍？很簡單的方式，部長請回答。"],["顧部長立雄：委員指教得很好，現在在臺灣能夠找到這樣的場域空間、比較乾淨的一個頻譜環境來做驗證，這件事情確實不容易，但是行政院正在努力結合各部會進行協調，也已經有一些相關進度。有些涉及到法規是不是要進一步鬆綁的問題，在無人機部分還要考慮到飛航安全，跟無人機測試這部分結合，所以關於測試場域的尋獲，以及測試場域要如何快速進行申請，簡化申請程序等等，這些都在做跨部會協調。如果委員要知道詳情的話，可能私下由相關部會再跟你……"],["鍾委員佳濱：中科院院長嗎？還是民航局局長、航港局局長？部長，講結論……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，應該是在院裡面的層級去處理的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，其實這些業者我們都有在交流，單單無人艇，就要到左營軍區透過軍方協助，如果還要載上爆破炸藥，那更不用講，民間根本不能取得，所以它的測試有很大的限制。現在民航局的部分──空域；航港局的部分──海域，單單一個無人艇要試航，要先載出去，不是開出去啊！我覺得這都限制到我們在無人載具發展過程當中的速度。","我為什麼請部長、次長、院長、主秘及局長一起來聽？就在於烏克蘭的經驗我們可以參酌。但烏克蘭跟我們不一樣，我們有一個臺灣海峽，其實烏克蘭初期的陸戰，FPV取代裝甲載具，這個戰場初期不會出現，但我們擔心的是恐攻第五縱隊，在海峽封鎖之前他們就搞設備破壞，對我們的關鍵基礎設施進行無人機恐攻，這些都是未來包括國防部跟行政院整個部會要思考的。","所以我的主張、講結論：儘速通過院版採購金額、品項，確保國防部建構無人載具戰力。但是也希望未來國防部跟各部會，採購機制要多元彈性，授權實際操作的部隊決定採購需求，這是烏克蘭戰場的經驗所換來的一個血淋淋的教訓。最後，我們去中心化、分散性思考，增強無人機載具供應鏈韌性，要給場域、頻譜、元件開放，它才能夠研發跟測驗。","未來我們不希望由一個中科院主導了所有的無人載具研發，烏克蘭沒有這樣的機構，烏克蘭是全民皆兵，全部的中小企業都投入研發創造跟生產，他們的工程師日新月異，兩週、一週就迭代，而我不認為這樣的一個情況，在現有國防部、中科院的體制下能夠完成。我們支持行政院，但是也希望未來在相關制度上，能夠參酌、借鏡烏克蘭的經驗，符合臺灣狀況做必要調整。部長可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們在這個採購計畫裡面，會有一個回饋機制，然後來創造……當然我們沒有辦法像烏克蘭一樣有實戰……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們沒有在打仗。"],["顧部長立雄：我們會有演訓，收集國際商品，會有各單位的意見回饋，我們在這個平臺上面，進一步要求廠商能夠快速地迭代更新。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長。因為主席站起來了，最後請民航局局長，要取得你親口的承諾，民航局局長請。何局長，因為在當年，2017年我們民用航空法的無人機專章是您主導著手草擬的，那時候本席也在交通委員會。那是遙控無人機，是空拍機、農噴機，是250公克以上25公斤以下。現在無人機載具，在對岸採用四軸八旋翼已經可以舉起100公斤，國內有研發，可以得到適航許可嗎？以現有的法令很難，所以就民用航空法，我會再找時間跟你好好討論，要趕快突破這些限制，讓臺灣非常有活力跟創造力的研發能量才不會被我們的法規束縛而窒息。可以答應嗎？"],["何局長淑萍：報告委員，這個沒問題，我們再跟委員報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我在這裡也謝謝召委，希望下次排案的時候，本席的版本有機會做提案說明，也能夠就教於各界。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員、謝謝各機關。","接下來陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-5-19,35,20-1","speakers":["洪毓祥","林楚茵","林沛祥","王安祥","陳亭妃","賴士葆","邱議瑩","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","楊瓊瓔","王義川","呂玉玲","劉書彬","王定宇","謝衣鳯","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","郭國文","陳永康","蔡易餘","陳超明","邱志偉","李彥秀","鄭正鈐","馬文君","牛煦庭","黃建賓","李坤城","陳冠廷","羅明才","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","羅美玲","林德福","林思銘","傅崐萁","張嘉郡","蘇清泉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2026-07-16"],"gazette_id":"1156401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1156401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第5會期經濟、外交及國防、財政三委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查：一、行政院函請審議「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；二、本院委員林楚\n茵等17人擬具「國防自主無人載具採購特別條例草案」案；三、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「強化\n國防自主暨無人機產業發展條例草案」案；四、本院國民黨黨團擬具「國防自主無人載具科技發\n展及採購條例草案」案（詢答）","agenda_id":"1156401_00001"}}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}